Marital Fitness Testing 101: true confessions of a fitness-testing housewife

A new reader asked a question related to marital fitness testing on a previous comment thread:

Followed the link to the post where you described plaguing your husband about ice cream, and wondered: can you recollect your state of mind when you were doing this? Were you deliberately trying to cut him down, maybe to punish him for something, or where you so obsessed with getting exactly what you wanted that you didn’t care about his feelings, or what….?  I ask because my wife does very similar things, sometimes actually involving ice cream and sometimes involving other matters, and I am pretty much at the end of my string on it.

What is fitness testing (also referred to on some blogs as sh-t testing)?  This refers to a wife directing some kind of challenging or difficult behavior at her husband as a way of seeing if she can get him to cave in.  She does this in order to test his “fitness” or strength as a leader.  She wonders: is he strong enough not to put up with my crap?  Will he back down or supplicate?  If so, he may be too weak to be a good provider or father.  It is not a conscious decision and the urge to do it is intense and not voluntary (although acting on the urge is voluntary).

All women fitness test.  It serves a purpose before marriage, in that it allows a woman to find a man whom she can easily respect and submit to; however, once she takes that vow before God, she should no longer be testing him because she has already publicly declared him to be fit by agreeing to marry him.  Unfortunately, it usually doesn’t stop unless the woman monitors her behavior very carefully, and even then it will still happen on occasion.  If she senses weakness in her husband, her anxiety level will build, and she will begin ramping up the testing behavior.

A common mistake that men make is giving in to fitness tests, erroneously believing that just giving her what she wants will calm her down and make the conflict go away.  In fact, all that does is increase her anxiety, as every cell in her body will begin screaming that this is an unfit man.  Females do not breed with unfit males, which is why failed fitness tests often lead to reduced or absent sexual access.  In other words, if she can push him around, she won’t be lying down.

What do marital fitness tests look like?   Some are really overt and easy to spot.  I shared this example from my own marriage on my old blog:

It’s not loving to allow someone to behave in a totally unacceptable way.  Do you serve a toddler who is disobeying?  Of course not. [...]Before we had children, my husband and I went out a lot but would occasionally spend a weekend evening in watching a video and eating ice cream.  His job was to go out and buy the Ben and Jerry’s.  This was in the days before cell phones were common, so he would nicely ask me what flavor I wanted, and I would give him my top two or three favorites.  However, you can’t always predict what flavors will be in stock, so sometimes he would have to substitute another flavor.  He could never predict when I would approve of the flavor he had chosen, and reader, I used to throw some fits if he chose wrong.  One time I even demanded that he return the ice cream he had bought.

Was this about ice cream?  No.  This was about me seeing if I could push him around.  I wasn’t consciously thinking that, but it was definitely the underlying motivation.  And understand this: I didn’t want to be able to push him around.  I wanted him to make me stop that.  When he finally laid down the law about it and refused to be my ice cream b*tch, I never felt the need to complain about the flavors he chose again.

Some fitness tests are more subtle and covert.  Here is an example that happened in my own marriage within the past week (I’m using myself as an example here so that readers will understand that no matter how aware a woman is, and no matter how alpha her husband is, her desire to fitness test never completely goes away):

HHG and I were sitting in bed reading shortly after tucking in the children.  Earlier in the day we had shared that wink-wink-nudge-nudge moment by which you both understand what’s on the agenda for later after the kids fall asleep, so I knew what was coming and was very much on board with it.  However, that little nagging sensation started when he went to wash up…

He returned and reached over to touch me, but I batted his hand away, saying “Ugh, your hands are freezing!  Did you wash with ice water?”  He didn’t catch on right away what was going on; he thought it really was about cold hands, so he obligingly put his hands under the covers and went back to reading for a bit.  Five minutes later, he made another move on me, but his hands were still just a little cold, so I said, “Nope, they aren’t warm yet.”  He still didn’t pick up on the subtext, so he rolled his eyes, put his hands back under the blankets and went on reading.  On the third try, when I continued to whine about his now room temperature hands, he finally figured out that this was a subtle fitness test and just flipped me over while I yelped fake protests and gave me two hard smacks on the backside.  “There,” he said,  “now my hands are warm,” and we both dissolved into laughter.

Later I told him that I realized I had been testing him and apologized, but if he hadn’t picked up on it and quashed it, that don’t-touch-me test could have continued indefinitely.  Tests tend to continue and increase in intensity until one partner recognizes what is going on and puts a stop to it, so it behooves both men and women to learn how to spot them as quickly as possible.

Further reading on marital fitness testing:

Married Man Sex Life Blog:

MMSL Forums:

Dalrock:

Red Pill Wifey

228 thoughts on “Marital Fitness Testing 101: true confessions of a fitness-testing housewife

  1. Farm Boy

    My Mom was wise, and knew enough to leave the garbage outside. She explicitly kept nagging and other shitty behaviors in check. And she had a happy marriage.

    On the other hand, if you want a heaping bowl of shit out of life, do what naturally comes to women.

    [ssm: I think you are over-stating what a fitness test looks like in a reasonably healthy marriage. Most fitness testing at our house, especially when HHG shuts it down quickly, ends in laughter, a sheepish apology from me, and sex.]

  2. Farm Boy

    SSM, were you really that bad? HHG should have purchased a dog collar and leash.

    [ssm: If I were "bad", a dog collar and leash wouldn't solve it. Punishments can't be enjoyable to the one receiving them. :)]

  3. Farm Boy

    Fitness testing should not logically be that important anymore, as the state is presently the guarantor of security for women.

    Unless you are not confident in the state…

  4. redpillwifey

    Thanks for the linkage, SSM. I’ve gotten my testing in check, but it still happens. It’ll always happen, because that’s just how we’re wired.

    I’m glad Captain M has gotten better about calling me out. It usually leads to some laughing and playfulness after.

    [ssm: Same for us. It rarely ends in a quarrel nowadays. And I work hard not to do it, even though I do do it once in a while.]

  5. Farm Boy

    What many women don’t realize is that to have any chance of success in shit testing, she has to have something that a guy wants. Miss “boner” from the last thread should not be shit testing

  6. Sis

    Good for HHG! sounds like he passed, I love it when my husband tackles when I’m not in the mood, it’s irresistible.

    [ssm: Although I too love to be roughhoused into agreeing to sex, that wasn't what this was. We had already agreed on that; the flip-and-smack was his playful way of quashing the test.]

  7. earl

    Women is to shit test…is like men gazing at beautiful women. Sure you shouldn’t do it in marriage…but it happens.

    So now I know when it happens to me…it’s the woman version of checking out my goods.

    [ssm: Yep, exactly the same deal. Just like men need to work on controlling a lustful gaze, women need to work on controlling their urge to fitness test. As a married couple, you want to help one another with each other's difficulties, which is why my husband helps me with not fitness testing him. We help each other because we love each other, not because we hate each other and are adversaries.]

  8. TempestTcup

    I try very hard to not test, but I still find myself doing it. Like, I will realize I’m doing it while I’m doing it & it takes extraordinary willpower to quash. Luckily my husband is starting to recognize the tests & deal with them.

    [ssm: Yep. Same here.]

  9. Caradoc

    Let me see if I got a handle on this. You are ALL irrational, passive-aggressive troublemakers who pick fights deliberately and try to sow discord. You stop doing it for a while when the object of your childish provocations responds in the “right” way. This is an inherent feature. Does that about sum it up? I read something once in an old religious text about sowers of discord. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God.

    Did I not believe the Bible to be true in all of its particulars I would be in total agreement with Aristotle on the nature of the female.

  10. Marteltel

    Somewhat OT, but I see how the testing instinct can lead to some serious problems in families without a male authority figure.

    Is it possible that a single mom might use her testing instinct on her boys? And if so, how would that alter natural family dynamics?

    If mom says “clean your room”, it might be a genuine request. But what if his room is already clean and she’s being nitpicky? Could that maybe be a test?

    And what about the son’s developing instinct to pass the tests? What if he interprets mom’s request for him to clean his room as a test when it’s actually an authoritative request? Or, what if he interprets her test to put his action figures in alphabetical order as an authoritative request?

    Without a father around to help him learn the difference, a boy might interpret everything his mother does as a test and not listen to a word she says. He would grow up to never listen to authority and probably be one of those kids of single moms who lands in prison.

    On the other hand, if he interprets mom’s tests as serious requests, he might carry such a tendency through to adulthood. He would therefore do whatever women ask him to do, assuming that they’re always making genuine requests and never testing him.

    He would grow up to be a beta.

    Any thoughts?

  11. Farm Boy

    U mad, Farm Boy?

    No, not really. I am a truly nice guy. I just play a tough guy on blogs. I am built like a linebacker, and look intimidating to people, but it is just a show.

  12. earl

    Yeah my father helped me out when it came to actual requests and irrational tests from my mother. It also doesn’t help that you are suppose to honor your mother…but most of her requests weren’t really tests. Whenever I displayed masculine traits however is when the tests came out.

    So it did help my relationship with my mother once I figured out what a fitness test was.

  13. tbc

    Fitness testing is borne of insecurity — the woman’s need to know that her man is strong enough to protect her. Is he worthy of her respect. But so men do it to women too.? Call it submission test. He asks her to do something he knows that she either doesn’t really want to do or makes her somewhat uncomfortable (though not harmful). He wants to see if she’s submissive which if she passes, should draw out his masculine protective instinct towards people he cares about.

    Just a speculation

    [ssm: I would agree with this. I love the idea of submission testing.]

  14. Just Saying

    “His job was to go out and buy the Ben and Jerry’s.”

    The solution to this is the same as the solution to all such sh*t-tests… He should buy what he wants without caring in the least what she likes, and if she says anything he just says, “You wouldn’t be happy regardless, so I bought what I wanted, so that at least one of us is happy and all in all, I’d rather it be me.” THAT is the correct choice – and is ALWAYS the correct choice – the only one that matters in the relationship is him since she’ll find some reason to be unhappy…

    Yes, it is being an a**-hole – but women like a**-holes… It’s as simple as that…. Just don’t expect them to admit it…

  15. Caradoc

    Let me see:
    Deliberately being obstinate or obnoxious as a test of wills, check.
    Rationalising this behaviour as normal, check.
    Ceasing to do this for a bit if the provokee responds in the desired way, check.
    I believe I have the point quite well.

  16. Marteltel

    @ RPWifey: Single moms foster the rise of betas, but also the rise of barbaric alphas. When a boy instinctually equates authority with femininity, he’ll either see ALL authority as a test and tell cops to go to hell, or he’ll do whatever women ask because it’s the right thing to do.

    I’ve notices also that the “better” single moms raise the more beta sons. A single mom with hundreds of loser boyfriends won’t necessarily be respected by her sons, he’ll see through the tests and know that to get what he wants he should defy them.

    But a son who observes his mom more or less doing the right thing will want to please her. He’ll equate failing her tests with doing the right thing and may well carry those traits into adulthood. To him, moral fitness will end up being the opposite of the fitness women seek in a mate.

  17. anonymous

    Farmboy: SSM, were you really that bad? HHG should have purchased a dog collar and leash.

    Who says he didn’t? We don’t know for sure…. SSM aint’ talking…

    [ssm: Ha. How bad do I have to be to get him to buy me a pink sparkly dog collar, I wonder?...it's worth a try.]

  18. deti

    tbc:

    Hmmmm. A submission test. I like it.

    I do things like this with my 13 year old daughter. Dear detiette is looking more and more like a woman all the time, and I’m not the only one who’s noticed. So have several of the boys in her social circle. She’s not accustomed to the attention she’s getting, and she absolutely LOVES it. This is where the snooty attitude comes from, I think.

    So to bring my little space cadet back down to earth, I sometimes order detiette around. Things like me being at the dinner table, i’ll tell her to get me things. “Detiette, bring me another glass of water.” “Go get me a steak knife.” Or “you need to come up here and put away your clothes.” “Help your mom and vacuum the basement carpet.” “Sweetie, get off the computer, you’ve been on long enough.” These are not phrases as requests, but rather as commands. I phrase them gently, not roughly or harshly.

    Serves two purposes:

    1. Training her to submit to a man who is above her (first her father, later a husband). And demonstrating to her that I am, indeed, her superior, I have authority over her, and she needs to submit to me.

    2. Gentle negs. Keeps her from getting a big inflated head and ego, keeps that snarky attitude in check, and lets her know there’s at least one man out there who isn’t all starry eyed and overly impressed with her feminine charm.

    [ssm: Oh, great comment! I love this, especially because we have a daughter the same age. We have also noticed the snooty attitude toward boys coming on. She's becoming aware of her power to make boys look at her. I watched her talking to an older boy at Boy Scouts/American Heritage Girls a few weeks ago. They were standing close together, and she kept shaking her hair over her face, then tossing it over her shoulder, clearly aware that every toss of her long hair momentarily distracted the young man from what he was trying to say. She's willful, too, so HHG really has to be on her about her attitude.]

  19. Farm Boy

    Who says he didn’t? We don’t know for sure…. SSM aint’ talking…

    Well, I used to walk my Keeshund around the parks there, and I saw no evidence of it.

    [ssm: At County Farm Park by any chance?]

  20. earl

    “Deliberately being obstinate or obnoxious as a test of wills, check.
    Rationalising this behaviour as normal, check.
    Ceasing to do this for a bit if the provokee responds in the desired way, check.”

    Well either you accept reality or be mad that it has to be this way.
    Telling women to stop doing this will be as easy as telling men to quit oogling pretty women.

    [ssm: Agree.]

  21. Farm Boy

    Gentle negs. Keeps her from getting a big inflated head and ego

    Yes, they need this. They have way more power than wisdom to use it.

  22. Farm Boy

    It can be done. All women have to do is stop doing it. I can control myself, why can’t she?

  23. Frank

    This really makes sense when you consider how similar it is to men checking out girls everywhere they go. The urge is strong and doesn’t merely stop when you find someone. You have to make a conscious effort not to look, so that’s why when women have to make a conscious effort not to fitness test, I’m sympathetic towards their struggles here.

    The only difference is that while men are beaten down as closet rapists just for glancing a girl’s way (even when they’re single and looking) women on the other hand get carte blanche acceptance in griefing men with fitness testing.

    Let me see: Deliberately being obstinate or obnoxious as a test of wills, check.
    Rationalising this behaviour as normal, check.

    Caradoc, don’t be a flaming idiot.

  24. deti

    The thing is with shit tests, giving her what she wants creates a vicious circle.

    You failed the test by giving her what she wanted.

    Then she realizes she can push you around and you’re not strong enough to stand up to her.

    This makes her feel insecure, because you aren’t strong enough to protect her if the SHTF.

    Her insecurity makes her unhappy and afraid.

    You see that she’s unhappy, and ask her “what’s wrong? I just gave you what you wanted. Why aren’t you happy?”

    She looks at you and says “I don’t know why; I just feel that way!” And she really is unhappy. This isn’t a test: she really doesn’t know why she’s unhappy. But worse, she doesn’t know it’s all borne of primal fear.

    To ameliorate the discomfort and fear, she tests you again by demanding that you give/do/get something.

    You fail the test by giving her what she wants.

    And on and on and on it goes.

  25. earl

    “I can control myself, why can’t she?”

    If you can control yourself then you my friend should be named St. Farm Boy…because that’s the level of control it takes.

  26. deti

    And this is why it’s very important to learn how to pass shit tests.

    How do you pass shit tests?

    1. Agree and amplify. “Does this dress make me look fat?”
    Oh SURE it does, Right. It makes your ass look HUUUUUGE!”

    2. Ignore: “I want you to put up the nice pretty bed in your office/spare bedroom.”
    *no response*
    A few days later: “Please put up the nice pretty bed in your office.”
    response: No.
    “Why not?”
    I don’t want to.

    3. Amused mastery: “So do you think that clerk was hotter than me? She was sooo flirting with you.”
    response: *smirk” hehehehehehe

    4. Faux chauvinist pig jerk: “Does this dress make me look fat?”
    Well, I don’t know. I’ll need a closer look. Take the dress off and let me see.

  27. Farm Boy

    If you can control yourself then you my friend should be named St. Farm Boy

    For many things, the law absolutely requires guys to control themselves.

  28. earl

    I was dancing the other night and the first lady I went after a guy got to her before me. So I went up to another gal and she said “Oh so I’m your second choice.”

    “Yup you are my silver medal.” Got her to laugh.

    Like I said they are meant to be fun.

  29. tbc

    deti – the thing is fitness testing by women is celebrated and institutionalised by culture. Submission testing by men means you are a chauvinist jerk, probably a rapist, maybe a child molester and definitely an abuser.

  30. deti

    tbc:

    I guess. But in my house, I’m trying to do my small part for male headship and chauvinism.

  31. deti

    Just like we will never get men to stop looking at and noticing pretty women; we will never get women to stop shit testing.

    The main thing here, I think, is that men need to recognize their own value as men, husbands and fathers. That might go a long way toward helping men pass shit tests.

    Women’s values are so artificially inflated that they’ve given rise to an entitlement mentality: If I want it, someone’s gotta give it to me NOW, for FREE. A man recognizing his own value and worth will respond more favorably and decisively to a shit test, I think.

  32. Caradoc

    Frankie, don’t be a keyboard commando. Why doesn’t somebody explain how this isn’t being an obnoxious shrew just for the hell of it? This is supposed to be a “Christian” blog ain’t it? Justify troublemaking for me using any book of the canon, the Apocrypha, or any Christian material from St. John to yesterday. Any takers?

  33. Frank

    Justify troublemaking for me using any book

    Who is justifying the troublemaking here? SSM is explaining behavior, not justifying it. Wishing it weren’t true and that women didn’t naturally behave this way is not going to make it so. You need to deal with the reality we have, not the fairy tale world you wish we had. Men lust after women, women fitness test men. Deal with it.

  34. davidvs

    Please don’t forget that there are many flavors of fitness tests. (Some tests combine flavors.) But all can be diffused with either “agree and exaggerate” or “agree and absurdity”.

    Some examples…

    (a) “Are you loyal to me?” (Note that Athol calls this a Loyalty Test versus a Fitness Test)

    Her: “You’re just flirting with her, right?”
    Him: Playfully sings You Are My Sunshine and pays extra attention to her that day.

    Her: “Do you worry about our relationship?”
    Him: “Never.” Big grin. “Maybe some day.”

    (b) “Are you reliable with what your promised?”

    Her: “You cleaned the stove, correct?”
    Him: “Yes, and the microwave got jealous, so I cleaned it too.”

    (c) “Will you do whatever I ask?” (The true “Shit Test”)

    SSM gave examples of those with ice cream and cold hands.

    (d) “Are you confident in your opinions?”

    Her: “Do you still want to go out for Thai food on Friday?”
    [Note: there is no reason to suspect he has changed his mind about those plans.]
    Him: “Definitely. I’m still working on my post-Thai food farts.”

    (e) “Please Set the Scene, I Want Something to React To”

    [Afrer he returns from a business trip]
    Her: “Did you miss me?”
    Him: Takes her hands, back her up to a wall, leans forward but does not quite kiss her. “It’s complicated.” Goes to the bedroom to unpack his suitcase.

    (f) The Question with No Right Answer

    Her: “Do these pants make me look me fat?”
    Him: “Let me try them on, so you can see what they do to a tushy.”

    There are probably others, but those six are all I can brainstorm quickly.

  35. davidvs

    Oh, I should add that Jesus was a master at answering not the words people asked him but the true underlying question. So noticing the flavor of fitness tests is part of discipleship.

  36. sunshinemary Post author

    I am at work right now so I can’t respond at the moment, but I have read all the comments and will have a lot to say when I get home in a couple hours.

  37. Thankful Husband

    SSM,
    Can you write something up to determine whens something is a true shit test and when it’s truly something important to a wife? As with many men, I can go all in on something or not at all. In other words I think there is something to christian love, mutual submission, loving your wife as christ loved the church that is not farm boys just do what you want because she’s never going to be happy anyway attitude. Obviously for a marriage to work you have to put the others needs before your own…and that get’s tricky has a husband to still lead while doing that knowing we have to face the shit test. When is it a true need? I can go full alpha and only with my wife go beta….but it’s honestly hard to go back and forth and pick and choose when those beta qualities need to show up. Obviously it’s a tough question, with many variables…any clues you want to pass along? Please don’t think I’m a blue pill…I just believe as men we do have to love our wives and believe it or not boys that doesn’t just natural. We’ve got this 95% worked out in our marriage but I can’t put it into words for my fellow brothers. Can you articulate this?
    Thanks-

  38. Marteltel

    @ Caradoc: It took me a while to recognize this, but the tests DO play an important role.

    Women have historically depended on a man to protect her and her family both from the outside world and her own worst tendencies. Testing a man is one of the most effective ways to find out if he’ll be able to do that.

  39. Martel

    And I just noticed that the reason everybody’s calling me “Marteltel” is that my profile got messed up.

    I was wondering if people were hinting I should start a phone company or something.

  40. Farm Boy

    Please don’t forget that there are many flavors of fitness tests

    Just like there are many flavors of Ben and Jerry’s

    [ssm: LOL, good one.]

  41. davidvs

    Continuing, (sorry, dealing with two kids, so multiple shorter replies) I do not think Fitness Tests are always testing a dominance-submission framework.

    Often they are merely symptomatic of how, stereotypically, women are stuck in the moment more than men.

    Situation One: I am doing dishes. My wife comes up to me and asks, “How can I be a better wife?” I think a moment and then reply with a big-picture answer: “This week was better than last week about lifting weights together in the evenings. But we can still do better.”

    Situation Two: My wife is doing dishes. I come up to her and ask, “How can I be a better husband?” She immediately replies, “Pass me that dirty plate.”

    I think SSM’s cold hands, as well as my examples (e) and (f) above regarding “Please Set the Scene, I Want Something to React To” and “The Question with No Right Answer”, are usually about this feminine immediacy rather than checking for husband-dominance. At least in my marriage.

    However, my wife gets to see plenty of examples of my handling the kids better than she would. As Athol has previously described, a husband can often avoid wife Fitness Tests by showing her that he is properly and playfully dominant with the kids and does not give them chances/freebies when they misbehave.

  42. Eve

    This is so true!! Thanks for the reminder to keep myself in check with this!!

    [ssm: Hi Eve! You're most welcome, hope it was helpful!]

  43. Caradoc

    Frank, this IS an attempt to justify it. She is saying, in effect, it is wrong BUT. . . The Bible says it is wrong PERIOD. Read the book of James. Read I John. What does James say about those who bite and devour? That too is “natural” but he tells us it is sin and to stop doing it, period, no excuse. There will be consequences for not obeying. John tells us that the one who continues in sin is not born of God. If regeneration is real then these actions ought to be diminishing. What does that say about women’s religious belief? I don’t remember who said it but there is an old saying that runs something like “If you are not busy killing sin then sin will be killing you.”

    Martel: Evolutionary explanations, regardless of their veracity, won’t cut it for the Christian. Men have “evolved” to take what they want if they are strong enough and to strike first and question later. No one justifies that, but female SIN is constantly justified and excused with Evo-psych or some other reason. I ain’t saying the world isn’t how it is or women aren’t just the little darlings they are. I am saying it is wrong and indefensible.

  44. ray

    responding to womens’ provocations with clever strategies or negs is confiming and extending the drama games being played

    wives have no business “fitness testing” husbands, the only sane response (to any such attempt) is Shut Up, expletive optional (yep the matriarchy may put you in the mancages for Abuse and Harrassment, but hey that’s part of being a man in the fempire)

    most marrieds i’ve known over age 40 have pretty limited sex lives, so these psychogames arent usually resolved happily in bed, but are an ongoing daily struggle between the two spouses, with a consistent result of male submission and faux-peacemaking to the wife’s latest provocation/complaint/crisis

    way too much thinky and talky about these simple issues ….western women clearly have FAR too much free time on their hands and spend their hours like satans, sifting the husbands theyre commanded to OBEY

    if either of my grannies tried to shit test their husbands, the first warning look would have settled it (both those women were far too busy taking care of their hubbies, houses, outside responsibilities, and grandkids — engaging in PRODUCTIVE tasks, even at v advanced ages — to play stupid ego-games and make difficult lives even more difficult

    having witnessed the marriage behaviors of those grandparents (lifelong, co-supportive marriages under tyring conditions) i’m much less inclined to believe this constant testing is inherent in female psychology, and much more a product of corrupt and rebellious times and nations

  45. Frank

    Caradoc,

    Again, SSM is not excusing this behavior. She is explaining what it is, why it happens, and how men (and women) can deal with it. We’re already seeing female commenters here acknowledging this and expressing the desire to stop too. So what’s the major malfunction?

    If regeneration is real then these actions ought to be diminishing. What does that say about women’s religious belief?

    Oh Lord, not another calvinist.

  46. empathologism

    There is no such thing as mutual submission, nor is there any such biblical term. Its a created spoon full of sugar for making verses 24/25 go down easier, when there really isn’t an issue with those verses to start with.
    To ask when do I pull out my beta and when do I stay alpha is already to fail the shit test in advance. Please do not misunderstand me on this, personally I do not have this figured out in practice either so I’m not attempting to AMOG the shit test pass/fail curve here.
    I’ll offer a parallel example, the one where men are told “listen don’t fix”. That is the ultimate shit test set up. I take a pretty clear line on that. If its tangibly fixable….it gets fixed….if its an emotionally expressive ventilation about a relational issue other than our own, I listen. I would say its a decent basis for the shit test alpha beta decision. Whatever the rule, stay to it. Trying to pivot back and forth is an inherent fail. Better to be consistent than to risk pandering, even if it means you stay stoic always.
    One particularly bothersome form of test for me(and is illustrative in how to handle) is the indirect question, and its cousin, asking the same question 4 different ways to verify it was understood and the answer doesn’t change. (each man has his favs). It serves as a good example to say that it doesnt matter what the issue is, the technique is messed up and does not deserve to be pandered to. When asked indirectly I answer with “what you really want to know is X, so please ask me that or correct me to what you really want to know”. On the other its “I already answered that, its not going to change”. These are the most frequented tests I see, I’m sure it differs a lot house to house. If I feel I’m being sneakily passive aggressively asked things even if they are serious things I will not indulge that. It took YEARS to just stick to the guns and though it didn’t eliminate the behavior it stops it dead.
    Example:”Did you know that junior just opened a new sour cream carton?” when the actual question is “when did you go to the store because you told me you didn’t have time to go when I asked you?”….something like that.
    The first question would have rendered “no”, then she would ask “did you know there was a new sour cream?” to which Id say “yes” and on and on until it was maneuvered into me impeaching myself as having been disingenuous about not having time to go to the store…..like that.

  47. empathologism

    again with the </i after sugar….more money in the offering

    [ssm: My rates have gone up. You've got to drop $.50 in the plate next Sunday.]

  48. Seeking Understanding

    SSM, thanks much. Since the “cold hands” thing was fairly recent, maybe you can remember what your were thinking consciously when you had that “nagging feeling”…was it?

    –Wow, those hands are really cold, or
    –If I could get a smack on the bottom that would be really hot, or
    –I wonder if he’s turned into a wimp in the last few days

    or all or none of the above?

    I understand the idea of the subconscious motivation for fitness testing; what I don’t understand is what a woman who is a rational & conscious being is thinking at the conscious level when she employs these tactics with a man she really doesn’t have any doubts about.

  49. earl

    “if either of my grannies tried to shit test their husbands, the first warning look would have settled it”

    Hate to break it to you…my own grandmother shit tested me. And she grew up in “the bad old days”.

    It’s a bug in the system from the apple bite.

    [ssm: That's well put, and I agree.]

  50. Thankful Husband

    empathologism,
    I do believe it’s the wife’s job to submit…it mentions it over and over again BUT verse 21 clearly states “submit to one another out of reverence for Christ”. We are also told to love our wives as Christ loves the church who GAVE HIMSELF UP FOR HER…to me that obviously states we are to die to ourselves and put our wife’s needs ahead of our own while still somehow leading…that’s a tricky deal but that is what is asked of me. I don’t want to get 50% of the equation right…I want to get 100% of the equation right. Hence my reason to SSM…while we have this worked out in our own marriage… I can’t articulate very well to other men when it’s time to alpha or beta. Christ was both.

    [ssm: NO! Mutual submission is poor exegesis. I won't argue Scripture with men, but please consider reading this article (not written by me):
    Is “Mutual Submission” Biblical?]

  51. Miserman

    Later I told him that I realized I had been testing him and apologized [emphasis mine], but if he hadn’t picked up on it and quashed it, that don’t-touch-me test could have continued indefinitely.

    This simple act of humility is important in my view. When a husband does stand up to a fitness test and the woman refuses to admit she did something wrong, the testing will continue. It is as if the woman has to break the man and makes it her life goal, even above every other interest and responsibility. It is as if her life has no meaning outside of breaking men and beating them into submission and then hating them once they break. It’s ugly to witness and experience, especially when a woman uses kids as a tool of fitness-testing. Ugly.

    Hell hath no fury like a woman fitness-testing a man who won’t break.

  52. Frank

    Thankful Husband: You’re taking the verse out of context, since from there Paul proceeds to explain the structure of submission. He talks of wives and husbands, but also the young submitting to the elders, and the rest submitting to the higher ups, etc. We submit to those whom in accordance to Scripture hold a senior position over us, whether in age, title or marriage. It is NOT an invitation to start submit to anything that moves, unless you can proceed to convince us of the wisdom of say, adults submitting to 5 year old children?

  53. ray

    earl — Hate to break it to you…my own grandmother shit tested me

    ouch! sounds like a defect in yr family tree

    you have my sympathies

    neither of my grannies shit tested me, nor their husbands (to limit of my observations of course) — and both grandparents married in the nineteenth century, guess that qualifies as the old days

    i hope your relations get their personal problems sorted (cause theyre affecting the rest of us) and the men of your kin regain some semblance of masculinity, cheers

  54. Caradoc

    Frank, what in the world does Calvin have to do with it? “Ye must be born again.” Any good Wesleyan would say exactly the same thing. Do you believe in regeneration or not? Must ye be born again to see the Kingdom of God or not? Quit grasping at straws.

  55. Frank

    Frank, what in the world does Calvin have to do with it?

    It means I know your type and the logical fallacies your type is especially prone to using. Our flesh does not simply change when we become saved, and for as long as we remain in our flesh, we will struggle against our sin nature. Deal with it.

  56. holyhandgrenadeofantioch

    sunshine: “I do do it once in a while.”

    Once in a while?
    lul
    I got your “once in a while” babe.

    farmboy: “If a women shit tests in the forest, does it still stink?”

    No. The trees just ignore.

    [ssm: Don't make me ban you.]

  57. Deep Strength

    Caradoc:

    Later I told him that I realized I had been testing him and apologized, but if he hadn’t picked up on it and quashed it, that don’t-touch-me test could have continued indefinitely. Tests tend to continue and increase in intensity until one partner recognizes what is going on and puts a stop to it, so it behooves both men and women to learn how to spot them as quickly as possible.

    The point of this article is to point out that fitness testing is what women do to men because of their sinful nature as SSM clearly states above she was wrong for doing it.

    Clearly, the women should be attempting to quash this behavior from within, and clearly it helps if the men are able to recognize this and correct the wife.

    No one is saying it’s justified rather, exposing sin and helping our brothers and sisters in Christ to live a more godly marriage.

  58. deti

    “I understand the idea of the subconscious motivation for fitness testing; what I don’t understand is what a woman who is a rational & conscious being is thinking at the conscious level when she employs these tactics with a man she really doesn’t have any doubts about.”

    I’m not a woman. But my observations suggest that at that moment, she’s not thinking. She’s feeling. She’s wrapped up in her emotions. Something is making her feel insecure or distraught or fearful or needy or unsure. At that moment she needs to fitness test him not because she thinks or has rational doubts, but because of her emotions. She needs him to show her that her emotions aren’t going to sway him or move him or beat him down.

    [ssm: It's an unconscious thing usually. It's just this weird sense of anxiety...like, I have to start something with him but I don't know why. It feels yucky. You just want to stop feeling that way and giving him crap just seems like it will make the anxiety stop. Yes, I know that is irrational. Yes, I know that is sinful. However, I'm just telling it like I've experienced it.]

  59. holyhandgrenadeofantioch

    “lul”

    Dutch?

    Typing on my phone.

    “Don’t make me ban you.”
    Don’t make me stop paying your phone and internet bill.

    [ssm: You're trolling me now? Seriously? Go back to lurking, please. :)]

  60. Caradoc

    Frank: Who has said anything about the flesh changing when you become saved? If you would read Romans 7 you might get it. But your type prefers to get their religious instruction from game gurus and female know it alls gathering beta orbiters. Keep carrying the water bucket boy.

  61. Sarah's Daughter

    You two are adorable.

    Fantastic post SSM!

    Thank you, God, for the men in our lives who extend us grace.

    [ssm: I'm in a state of shock that he de-lurked. He practically never says anything here despite my nagging encouraging him to chime in.]

  62. Frank

    Caradoc, your trollish comments do not reflect a regenerative spirit. Perhaps you need some more regeneration? Maybe Apple sells a regenerating cable to help with that.

  63. anonymous

    farmboy: “If a women shit tests in the forest, does it still stink?”
    HHG: No. The trees just ignore.

    Alpha move. That’s why so many liberal chicks are tree huggers… the redwoods aren’t beta. Indeed they can stand erect for 3000 years….

  64. Caradoc

    Nah Frankie. What I have done is cast pearls before swine. I hope one of your internet sweethearts gives you the pat on the head you crave. Have a day,boy.

  65. nightskyradio

    SSM – If I were “bad”, a dog collar and leash wouldn’t solve it. Punishments can’t be enjoyable to the one receiving them.

    That reminds me, I’m going to have some shopping to do soon…

  66. anonymous

    Note SSM’s indecisiveness re: HHG. Memo to HHG — fitness test alert!

    SSM: You’re trolling me now? Seriously? Go back to lurking, please.
    SSM: Don’t make me ban you.
    vs
    SSM: I’m in a state of shock that he de-lurked. He practically never says anything here despite my encouraging him to chime in.

    “Women want toasted ice” — Arab proverb.

  67. Frank

    Alpha move. That’s why so many liberal chicks are tree huggers… the redwoods aren’t beta. Indeed they can stand erect for 3000 years….

    Fertilizer. Nature’s Viagra.

  68. nightskyradio

    anonymous – That’s why so many liberal chicks are tree huggers… the redwoods aren’t beta. Indeed they can stand erect for 3000 years….

    Most American guys call that “being a teenager.”

    Hey, it feels like 3000 years…

  69. an observer

    Wifey sometimes still asks odd questions, after twelve years. They are harder to spot, especially when tired after a days work.

    I find playing a straight bat can help. An odd question gets an equally odd answer until she reframes it to say what she actually means. At which point i give her a proper answer. If she doesnt rephrase or continues with the tame, i soneimes just walk away, which she truly hates. I have no patience for mind games.

    Fitness testing when i was single was a constant irritation. One ex gf got herself dumped when i got sick of her games. Games are for children, and since i read recently that the average girl matures earlier but is stuck at age eighteen forever, the games make more sense.

    Still annoying, though.

  70. Thankful Husband

    SSM, mutual submission is a term that’s taken to mean a 50/50 marriage…that’s not what I’m talking about in the least. I’m talking about a husband setting aside his will to love his wife. Putting her needs first. I’m not talking about her being the leader or head of the household…I know mutual submission is a loaded word now days because like anything on the left/progessive/feminist we are allowing them to define the terminology…but rest assured I’m not talking about her being the leader or head or egalitarian…whatever you want to call it. I”m talking about on an individual basis a husband saying I value you more than life and even though this is not what i want to do this exact moment I am going to do it because you are my wife.

    And yes there are times I submit to my eight year old? You ever watched a TV show for their sake or played hide and go seek after coming thru the door after working twelve hours and being exhausted but doing it because they are your child? Don’t make all submission about authority…it’s not.

  71. sunshinemary Post author

    @ anon at 4:39 re: Fitness test alert

    D’oh! Good catch. Dang. See, I swear it is instinctive. I didn’t even notice I was doing that! I should delete your comment in case he checks in again. :)

  72. Cautiously Pessimistic

    Things were a lot simpler back when the pimp hand was still in the arsenal.

  73. holyhandgrenadeofantioch

    ” this IS an attempt to justify it. She is saying, in effect, it is wrong BUT. . . The Bible says it is wrong PERIOD”
    Of course it’s “wrong” in the eyes of the Lord. Everything has been “wrong” since the whole Garden of Eden fiasco. The “wrongness” (<not sure if that's a word) of it has nothing to do with its existence. The Good Lord has lessons in all tests… and good things can come out of them.

    Don't worry Frank…
    a few people here are just Sh#t Testing you. For guys I think it's called "AMOGing"

    **ALSO… I just happen to feel like talking today… later it's back to "lurking".**

  74. empathologism

    lul has a funny (and oddly germane) Dutch meaning, when I used to drive from Houston to San Antonio with my Dutch colleagues back when I worked for Dutch company and we’d pass the signs for the Texas town “Luling” they would never fail to remind me.

    As for putting wife’s needs first, see, even that is not Biblical, in a clear fashion, because she NEEDS to shit test you. You do not need to put THAT need first, you need to quell that need because that’s what she really NEEDS is to be quelled. By definition a shit test therefore represents a need to be quelled, hence no decision point regarding alpha/beta traits.

    Again, I am not suggesting that I have this down.

  75. empathologism

    Don’t make all submission about authority…it’s not.

    Red Herring. Choosing to play hide and seek is not submitting, its choosing. that’s part of the flawed exegesis, submitting to one another is not standing by the door, both saying “after you” and it is neither the same thing as the wife being subject to her husband. Authority as an out working imperative is irrelevant, truly.

  76. Thankful Husband

    I’m not saying I need to supplicate a shit test…I’m asking how to determine a shit test from a real, physical, emotonal, or spiritual need. Some of you guys must think you walk and water and when you happen to fall well tough shit for her. I realize the sinful nature of woman…and it is great. I also realize mine. There is no question who the leader in my household is…I’m the controlling, abusive husband in all my wife’s friends eyes when nothing could be further from the truth. But as of yet, I am still sinner as are all the men I deal with. So how to we determine a shit test from something real? That’s my question.

    As far as not putting her needs first not being biblical as one commentator said…seriously guys you are getting as bad as the feminists do just in the other way. We are to love our wives as Christ loved the church? Do you think he wanted/needed/desired to be beaten and crucified?

  77. Frank

    Don’t worry Frank… a few people here are just Sh#t Testing you. For guys I think it’s called “AMOGing”

    Gees the PUA terminology is worse than an LOLcats dictionary.

  78. empathologism

    As far as not putting her needs first not being biblical as one commentator said…seriously guys you are getting as bad as the feminists do just in the other way. We are to love our wives as Christ loved the church? Do you think he wanted/needed/desired to be beaten and crucified?

    No….not at all. You are accustomed to reading something else and you are misreading what I said. Nothing I stated should evoke asking We are to love our wives as Christ loved the church? because nothing I said suggests otherwise. And what does the last question even have to do with it? Why, when I point out that its my job to figure out what her needs actually are is that likened to beating and crucifixion? I submit that it isn’t me discoursing as the feminists do as its feminists who see only two choices, supplication and abuse.

  79. anonymous

    SSM:: If I were “bad”, a dog collar and leash wouldn’t solve it. Punishments can’t be enjoyable to the one receive them
    SSM: Ha. How bad do I have to be to get him to buy me a pink sparkly dog collar, I wonder?…it’s worth a try.
    SSM: I love the idea of submission testing.
    SSM: Although I too love to be roughhoused into agreeing to sex,

    HHG, I have now figured out your wife’s strategy, and it is brilliant.

    She has daughters to marry off, and she has (rightly so) quite narrow religious, political, and behavioral standards for future sons- in- law — standards that are hard to meet in this day and age. What to do? Where to find good young men, a few years down the road? She and HHG need to be able to sort through a LOT of young men, to find the few, the very few, who are worthy of their daughters. And she’s planning long in advance..

    How to get such a large pool of interested young men?

    Easy… Get on the internet and network with those who share your ideas, of course. Especially those who have SONS. But for those sons, for any young man, travelling across the country to meet a girl, needs some sort of incentive. What?

    Simple. Look at the quotes above. Your wife SSM is passing herself off as a crazed sex-goddess on the internet. Faithful., monogamist… but wild. This trait will be assumed to be hereditary, so, her daughters, when of dating age, will have extremely high marriage market value.

    And so… a few years from now, when kids are in their teens, men with sons will say, “Whoa… Son, that’s Sunshine Mary’s daughter. YES I will pay your plane fare to go meet her, Yes I will pay hotel and car fare.. YES I will pay for your out of state hunting licence so you can hunt with HHG… GO THOU, MY SON”.

    Thus, SSM’s daughters will have LEGIONS of young men to choose from, and can pick the best of the best of the best. Once again it all boils down to hypergamy. Brilliant, SSM.

    Come to think of it, ALL the raunchiest “Christian blogstresses” have daughters…. Vanessa and Elspeth and Morticia. Absolutely brilliant. At last I understand the true motive of the Christian HotChickoSphere.

    Keep your shotgun clean, HHG. My oldest is 9, he’s of dating age in 7 years. I’ll be sending him your way. If you deem him worthy, and one of your daughters is interested, we can go from there…

    [ssm: This made me laugh so hard. Actually, he has nine shotguns now, I believe, something like that. Hmmm, we have a seven-year-old...a real cutie, but she literally never stops talking. Ever. She even talks in her sleep. Does your 9 year old like listening? :)]

  80. anonymous

    Alpha move. That’s why so many liberal chicks are tree huggers… the redwoods aren’t beta. Indeed they can stand erect for 3000 years….

    Frank: Fertilizer. Nature’s Viagra.

    Hence the term, S#!T test…..

  81. Frank

    Thankful Husband: Putting someone’s needs ahead of your own is not the same as submission. I think that’s where you’re getting confused on the subject.

    Like for example, your wife is washing the dishes but looks turned and worn. You tell her to stop washing the dishes so you can do it yourself and take the load off her. You’re helping your wife, but you didn’t submit to her. In fact you gave her an order, so to speak, but that order was made for her benefit.

  82. Sarah's Daughter

    I’m asking how to determine a shit test from a real, physical, emotonal, or spiritual need.

    It’s in how it is presented. You sound like a man who has active conversation with his wife. You know her. You know when she’s seeking truth in the way she’s asking the question. Also, you are a logical being. You can observe when something is irrational. A wife asking her husband to go back out for ice cream is irrational. A wife in physical pain who asks her husband to return to the store for the correct medication to help her is one with a real physical need.

    A wife who is crying and visually emotionally upset should be told to pray before speaking with you so that she can sort out the issues and find the source of what’s truly bothering her. Often times women want to talk through things to find the source of their pain. Husbands do not have to be sounding boards for this. She can do it on her own with God and should be encouraged to do just that. Pray with her, for her, whatever, but there’s no need for you to try to absorb all of the details until she has a clear understanding herself of what the issue is.

  83. Thankful Husband

    What Christ did was not abuse…it was the only solution to a very real need. Did it suck that He had to? Yes but it was needed. You seem to equate the wife is the only one that gives or sacrifices which nothing could be further from the truth. My question is simply when with the constant static we are obviously getting from women in the modern age are we to determine what is real and what is not…it’s simple question. I have no problem standing up when it’s static but I’m just has wrong as her if I don’t meet the need when it’s real…that’s all.

  84. tbc

    Come to think of it, ALL the raunchiest “Christian blogstresses” have daughters…. Vanessa and Elspeth and Morticia. Absolutely brilliant. At last I understand the true motive of the Christian HotChickoSphere.

    Hmmm… I never noticed that before. Playing the long game for the sake of the daughters future marriage prospects. That’s some serious ‘concerned Christian mother’ game right there. Straight from the old country with a modern internet twist.

    Which makes this whole blog and indeed the whole “Christian HotChickoSphere” a massive ongoing fitness test to find the best marriage prospects for their offspring!

  85. anonymous

    Which makes this whole blog and indeed the whole “Christian HotChickoSphere” a massive ongoing fitness test to find the best marriage prospects for their offspring!

    Indeed. All this manosphere blogging about Alphas and fitness testing and all that….. IS IN ITSELF A MASSIVE FITNESS TEST…

    Take the red pill and see how deep the rabbit hole goes, LOL! The floor of the rabbit tunnel just fell out and we’ve gone down a whole ‘nuther level.

  86. anonymous

    @anon — oh my goodness! I think you just discovered the Matrix!

    And don’t forget, the original meaning of the word Matrix: womb

  87. Thankful Husband

    Frank & Sarah’s Daughter,
    Thank you for your well thought out replies.

    Frank, I do believe I submitted my will for hers in that moment…did I do it with authority…go sit down…you bet, but I still submitted my will for hers at that moment. Just as Christ submitted himself…submission isn’t necessarily a sign of weakness.

    SD,
    Yes, in my own marriage we’ve got this down…but my wife’s current level of drama/static is minimal than the average female these days and I have friends who aren’t quite the natural leader….it makes it a little tougher when the situations aren’t quite as clear as the ones you presented. But thank you for your reply…I thought it was very helpful.

  88. anonymous

    @anon- just how far does this rabbit hole go man??!!

    A couple of hot chicks in black boots, black miniskirts, black jackets, and black sunglasses are closing in on my cubicle, with machine guns in hand…

    and everything around me is dissolving into cascading green screen characters…

    The RedPill was a lie. The Manoisphere was never meant to end anything. It was all another system of control…

    …. control by the Matrix (0)

  89. Elspeth

    Today my husband told me the story of one of his clients who was arguing with her husband over the phone because she wants a new car. Hers is approaching 100,000 miles! My husband told her (after she asked his opinion) that we have two cars over 200,000 miles and that I haven’t bugged him about a new car because ours runs just fine. He said he told her point blank: “I’m glad my wife isn’t high maintenance.” Not all women are.

    @Anon and tbc:

    It has honestly never occurred to me that I might run across prospective husbands for my girls in this neck of the sphere. Even that joke I made on TC today was just that…a joke.

    I think my girls will probably marry devout, masculine, traditional young men hiding out in a churchian congregation

  90. an observer

    Elspeth,

    I think my girls will probably marry devout, masculine, traditional young men hiding out in a churchian congregation

    Lol. Feminism has infested the church.

    The other day i mentioned the need for a red pill dating site, and i had something a bit more specific in mind. The concept of mra site as long term fitness test is intriguing.

  91. dannyfrom504

    women NEVER quit shit testing. ever. i don’t even get mad at them any more. i just smash it and call her out. let her pout, then re-assume the lead. she ALWAYS comes back happy.

    [ssm: And I think you've hit on the key: if you are going to be around women, you are going to have to deal with fitness testing to some degree. It's best not to waste energy being angry about it and focus that energy on shutting down her test.]

  92. Farm Boy

    : I think you are over-stating what a fitness test looks like in a reasonably healthy marriage

    My Dad was not an alpha like HHG. If my Mom had shit tested my Dad we would all have been miserable.

  93. Farm Boy

    If I were “bad”, a dog collar and leash wouldn’t solve it

    I will be watching for you in the parks then.

  94. FuzzieWuzzie

    Fitness tests scare the heck out of me. Why, because i know my nature and, with all good intentions, I’d want to accomodate someone I care about.
    The only advice that I’ve found was at Dalrock’s. His wife got a little rebellious and he took up hunting and fishing on weekends. That worked for him.
    Fitness tests, once failed, kill respect. I would hate to be a “yes, dear” husband or divorced.
    BTW, I’ve never married. In a sense, this seems like “out of the frying pan and into the fire”.

  95. nightskyradio

    All this manosphere blogging about Alphas and fitness testing and all that….. IS IN ITSELF A MASSIVE FITNESS TEST…

    Take the red pill and see how deep the rabbit hole goes, LOL! The floor of the rabbit tunnel just fell out and we’ve gone down a whole ‘nuther level.

    …you just discovered the Matrix!

    Sunshine Mary is not a person. She is a a program in the self-aware womanosphere that seeks fitness-screened, moral, Christian males (aka “Project Sunshine”) – M.arital A.rrangement R.econnaissance Y.enta.

    [ssm: LOL, I cannot stopping laughing at this!]

  96. anonymous

    from my earlier post: ….SSM is passing herself off as a crazed sex-goddess on the internet. Faithful., monogamist… but wild. This trait will be assumed to be hereditary, so, her daughters, when of dating age, will have extremely high marriage market value…

    Does long term hypergamist strategizing for the daughters’ sake, explain the Sunday Morning Slutwalks? With their commitment to fitness and their revealing outfits, are they advertising, on behalf of their daughters, “Long Shelf Life”, to the fathers of young sons??? Could this be why they wear their sexiest outfits to CHURCH — in a long term strategy to get their daughters equally yoked?

    After all, it’s an ancient maxim that, to assess a girl’s quality later in life, your best predictor is to look at her mom. Are these women consciously or subconsciously saying, “Look at me, I’m a hot fox at 35…. I have daughters…. you have sons…… maybe in a few years?”

    And for those whose daughters are older, it’s more direct. They are falsely accused of trying to compete with their daughters, but more likely, they’re trying to show the suitors — “Hey, 25 years from now, she’ll still look like this!”

    Vanessa, long ago: “I’m not a slut. I just play one on the Internet”

    Now we know why.

  97. Deep Strength

    @ Thankful Husband

    SSM, mutual submission is a term that’s taken to mean a 50/50 marriage…that’s not what I’m talking about in the least. I’m talking about a husband setting aside his will to love his wife. Putting her needs first. I’m not talking about her being the leader or head of the household…I know mutual submission is a loaded word now days because like anything on the left/progessive/feminist we are allowing them to define the terminology…but rest assured I’m not talking about her being the leader or head or egalitarian…whatever you want to call it. I”m talking about on an individual basis a husband saying I value you more than life and even though this is not what i want to do this exact moment I am going to do it because you are my wife.

    Again, this is unbiblical… let me put this another way. The Bible clearly states that in marriage the two become one flesh. Any decision you make should take into account both her needs AND your needs — you are her and she is you. Her needs do not come ahead of yours.

    To love her as Christ loved the church does not always mean you cater to her. Remember, Jesus often rebuked those who were wrong, told multiple men and women to turn from their sin, overturned the money changer tables in the temple in righteous anger.

    Additionally, Jesus didn’t always preach to everyone. He often took time with His disciples to mentor them. And He often withdrew to solitary places to pray by Himself.

    Your job as a leader is to evaluate both of your needs and prioritize the decision making to have the best possible outcomes. Sure, sometimes this means putting her needs first, but depending on the situation it may be putting your needs first, or the kids first, or making decisions that aren’t always “popular” according to the world.

  98. Elspeth

    Lol. Feminism has infested the church.

    Yes, I’m well aware. Of course, given the number of truly Orthodox traditional Christians about, I suspect we’ll roll those dice.

    I found my on husband far, far, away from the church and he (before he ever became a believer) made it clear that I was going to come home and raise our kids myself. Very traditional, but not a Christian Now he’s both.

    Since I’d like my virgin daughters to remain as such until their wedding day, they can’t really do what I did. They’ll have to find someone in the church. Which i hope and pray is better than finding someone outside of the church.

    @Vanessa:

    I laughed too. Especially at the “Christian HotChickoSphere” part. What the heck????

  99. sunshinemary

    Thankful:

    I’m not saying I need to supplicate a shit test…I’m asking how to determine a shit test from a real, physical, emotonal, or spiritual need. …So how to we determine a shit test from something real? That’s my question.

    What you are asking is: when is it a fitness test and when is it really just that your cold hands feel bad on her warm skin?

    For me, it’s often that I am presenting a nebulous complaint and not offering to help with a solution.

    So, if I hadn’t been subtly fitness testing my man, when he stuck those iceberg hands of his to my warm abdomen, I wouldn’t have batted his hands away and complained. I would have said, “Oh, cold! Run some warm water on your hands and come right back.” Or “Let me rub your hands and blow on them.” Something like that.

    Another prime fitness test is when he’s sitting on the couch reading. If there is something that needs doing and I ask him please to do it, that is not a fitness test. If there is nothing special that needs doing but I make something up because I can’t stand just to see him sitting there, that is a fitness test.

    As far as not putting her needs first not being biblical as one commentator said…seriously guys you are getting as bad as the feminists do just in the other way. We are to love our wives as Christ loved the church?

    That is a danger when one is a reactionary, no doubt, and one that must be guarded against. Mutual submission between husbands and wives is not biblical in anyway, but of course husbands are to love their wives and Christ loved the church. Christ did not submit to the church though; he submitted to God. Big difference. Here is a quote that I like from one of Dalrock’s articles:

    Her shit tests are her problem, not yours. As a loving husband you want to help her with her problems, but don’t assign yourself responsibility for them.

  100. Keoni Galt

    Heh. Funny to read those old Dalrock posts and “married game” debates. In response to this current post, I think a comment I made back then is apropos:

    There is something some of you are missing here in a discussion about a wife shit testing her husband.

    Many times, a wife does a “shit test” which is essentially nothing more an invitation for seduction….especially if you deal with shit tests for which you respond with “agree and amplify.” What better way to respond to a challenge to your manhood (which is what a shit test really is…to see if you’re still the man) than to banter with sexual innuendo that results in you throwing her down and tearing off her clothes and getting down to business?

    LOL

    When you begin to recognize the pattern of shit testing in your wife…you just might notice that she seems to do it a lot more during a certain phase of her cycle. Then you’ll realize that a shit test from her is essentially an invitation…

    So why would you want a wife that never “shit tested” you? Once you know it for what it is, and why she does it, a wife’s shit tests are actually nothing more than an opportunity for you as the husband, rather than something you wish she never did.

    Finding a woman who would never shit test her husband is like hoping that one day the sun will rise in the West and set in the East.

    SSM wrote: “Later I told him that I realized I had been testing him and apologized, but if he hadn’t picked up on it and quashed it, that don’t-touch-me test could have continued indefinitely.”

    Meh. The reflexive nature of you shit testing your husband is not sinful. It forced him to be more dominant and TAKE you…which is really what you wanted. You were just doing a little bit of LMR – last minute resistance.

    Why did you feel the need to apologize for it? Why do you and so many women in these parts of teh Interwebz consider it a sin to “shit test” there husbands?

    Remember – attraction is not a logical decision. You have to FEEEEEEEL it. You have all the logical reasons in the world to be attracted to your husband…but that LMR shit test you threw at him made you FEEL it.

    In short, shit testing is not a sin.

    It’s foreplay.

  101. Stingray

    you just might notice that she seems to do it a lot more during a certain phase of her cycle. Then you’ll realize that a shit test from her is essentially an invitation…

    I was wondering about this. I do this all the time, but it is usually conscious and I have that playful look in my eye. I wasn’t sure if there was a difference between teasing and these fitness tests. It’s more of a combination of the two to just get something started rather than being at all annoyed or irritated with anything. Like you said, it’s an invitation and it can be SO much fun. I don’t try very hard at all to avoid what you are talking about, but I do try not to test otherwise.

  102. sunshinemary

    @ KG
    That’s an interesting perspective, and I agree that fitness tests are not always (or even often) nuclear; they can turn fun and playful if handled properly. However, I’m not sure it’s only an invitation to seduction. I can honestly tell you it doesn’t feel that way. If feels like anxiety and a bit of dread. What the invitation is is for you to show me that you are worthy of seducing me by first demonstrating that you can take care of me and any resulting offspring. That is why passing it often ends up the way I noted here:

    Most fitness testing at our house, especially when HHG shuts it down quickly, ends in laughter, a sheepish apology from me, and sex.

    HHG expects the apology, though. There are better ways to flirt and be playful with him other than testing; he sees it as somewhat sinful, as it demonstrates a lack of faith in both my heavenly protector (God) and my earthly protector (my husband).

  103. empathologism

    Her shit tests are her problem, not yours. As a loving husband you want to help her with her problems, but don’t assign yourself responsibility for them.
    —————–
    Exactly. And references to how Christ suffered fit here ONLY when it was , and of course it was always, for our benefit. That’s the key. Asking how do I know when, is like women calling dr Laura asking how can I feel good about, how can I heal from, how can I get past,,,,,these questions are great fodder for conversation but the answer should have a just do it over riding aspect.

    I literally just experienced one at home this moment. Summarily handling it worked because suddenly we are joking and poking loving flirting barbs again as we are prone too, being sarcastic masters at each other in a good way.

  104. FuzzieWuzzie

    Precious bodily fluids???!!!!!! Now, I’m going to have nightmares.

    [ssm: Now, don't worry about a thing, dear. We have your best interests at heart here. Don't we girls? Bwhahahahahah. :)]

  105. Thankful Husband

    I thank you for your replies, but honestly don’t agree. Not everything Christ did was for His best interest…it was exactly the opposite. He had it made, yet became to this rat hole of a place (it’s a rat hole thanks to us), became dependent as a baby to a place He was used to holding in the palm of His hand, went thru puberty, put up with the hot, cold, thirst, hunger, labor then went on to be rejected by His own people and familly, then paid the ultimate price on the cross. You’ll forgive me, but that doesn’t sound like what was in his best interest. Yes, we as husbands are to lead and yes that means sometimes not putting up with crap…but even Christ puts up with our crap…he is slow to anger, forgiving, etc. I believe wholeheartedly in head of household and submission for women…but many of you are missing a huge chunk of the Ephesions 5 verse. I’m red pill, I’m for patriarchy, but some of you are WAY past that. You want to get back to a godly marriages and godly women…I can guarantuee you it’s not to say ” things were a lot better when the pimp hand was still in the arsenal.”

    I also didn’t say that submitting to my wives desires once in awhile means giving up my authority…honestly, I fight for this stuff in the “christian marriage blogs” and never understood the paranoia by the women over there…I kind of get it now. I’m secure enough in my manhood and my head of household that I can put her needs first and not “just do whatever you want to cause she’s not going to be happy anyway.” If I say we are going this way or doing this…my wife has no problem following me because I have her best interests at heart even if she doesn’t agree with me. Why does me saying I submit to my wife on occasion scare the ever loving shit out of you guys? My wife would follow me to the gates of hades… Bottom line, Christ submitted His will. We are told to be like Christ. Now does He let us pick and choose when He is going to submit? NO….which means He does not give up His authority over us. Same goes for us. I don’t have to submit to my wife and in all honesty both husband and wife should be working closer to Christ every day of their life which means honestly at some point there isn’t a lot of submitting left to do…if you are both following HIm, you are on the same trajectory, same path…but yes, the choice to submit remains to me the husband.

  106. Farm Boy

    Oh, by the way, today is the one month anniversary of my new blog

    You should show your appreciation for HHG’s support by going out and getting some Ben and Jerry’s.

  107. Novaseeker

    It “scares the shit out of us guys” because it is the Sin of Adam. Adam submitted to his wife, and all creation fell.

    Men are to lead. Lead by sacrifice, lead by service, lead by doing, etc. But *lead*. Not to submit. Women are to submit as helpmeets.

    I think you are getting bogged down in verbiage. I think you consider “leading by sacrifice” or “leading by service” to be submitting to your wife. No. You are leading. There is no submission, because she is not in authority over you — you are always in authority.

    Why does this crap about verbiage matter? Because it has been used to justify mountains of feminist rebellion. I get that you understand that and are saying “hey, I am not like that, but ..”.

    The problem with that is not what you are doing in your own life, but rather the words. The words matter. If we describe patriarchal husbandry as mutual submission, we have effectiuvely capitulated the intellectual argument to the other side, regardless of what we do in our own lives. Regardless of what we do in our own lives. Ideas and words matter. They matter.

  108. an observer

    Thanks Nova. The distractions of cubicle world make it harder to think of,or write, explanations.

  109. Sarah's Daughter

    We have had the experience where I’ve said something insightful that RLB had not thought of. There are always times when one spouse is more in tune with the Holy Spirit than the other. A dance of sorts. In those times, a man would be a fool to reject his wife’s words of wisdom. If he believes this to be beneath him and his role as head of the family he is sadly missing out. Does he submit to her in those circumstances? Perhaps in that moment of insight. A wise woman does not use these times to circumvent or undermine her husband’s authority.

    Similarly, there are several things I know how to do that he hasn’t learned yet. When he wants to learn, he asks me. In that moment, he submits to my knowledge and learns from me. Again, it changes nothing about the overall dynamic of our relationship.

    This is a far cry from the mutual submission crowd. It’s been explained to me by several of them that unless both they and their husbands agree on something, it does not happen. It makes me wonder how they even get dressed in the morning. In truth what they have going on in their homes are women’s refusal to cede anything to their husbands. If he cedes to her, well then that’s perfectly okay. I’ve discovered an interesting correlation between these mutual submission marriages and the woman’s physical appearance…

  110. Thankful Husband

    Sarah’s Daughter…EXACTLY! I’m not giving up my authority just because I cease to use it at that moment and it’s known by both of us.

    And yes I feel the same way about the “mutual submission” from the blue pill/progessive/lefty side of the church crowd…it doesn’t work when dancing. It doesn’t work when running a business (50/50 partners). Heck name me a place where it works!

    But as an employeer, if I have an employee with a skill that is greater than mine in an area or knowledge..I submit to them in this area. I can in effect change my mind at any given moment if I no longer trust their judgement but that does not change the fact that in that moment I’m putting aside my authority, but not relinquishing it. Does that mean I’m leading from behind for a moment…fine but it also means in that moment I’m submitting. They are not mutually exclusive.

  111. Looking Glass

    @Thankful Husband:

    I think Nova is right, you’re caught a bit in the wording. Wording which was *intentionally* confused by a number of parties over the years to render you in exactly the point you’re running into.

    What you’re describing isn’t “submitting” it’s “delegating”. Big, BIG difference. As long as you have final say, you are not submitting to someone. In an employment situation, if you submit to an employee, you’ve just lost all respect from them. That employee is now in charge of the situation, but since it’ll fall on your shoulders if it goes wrong, you simply won’t be respected. (That’s bad Leadership 101 teaching there, obviously)

    It’s important to split out “submit” and “delegate” because of what comes next: “giving” of ones self is neither to submit nor to delegate. Because you can’t “give” what you are commanded to do, that can only be surrendered. Which is where the Fitness Test comes in. It’s not submission, it’s surrendering to the Will of another, in their sin. (And, yes, Fitness Tests are by definition sinful, as they’re a deceitful question.) Continual surrender leads to submission.

    However, you can freely “give” of yourself, which should happen as a result of the Fruits of the Spirit. Then, taking into account the marriage relationship, this is where “agape” comes in. I like to think of it as “make the decision that’s in the best interest of the Marriage”. Sometimes it’s “better” for you; sometimes it’s “better” for her; it should always be what’s “best” for the marriage. It much like disciplining a Child, really. You don’t do it because you enjoy it; you do it because it’s necessary to prevent disaster and death in the future. It’s the exact same way when dealing with a Fitness Test. You are checking the sinful nature of a woman to prevent her from destroying you, her and your children. Because she will, if unchecked by you or by some external force. (Considering the state of the Laws in the West, it’s pretty much just your personality that does it.)

    So, I think at the basic level you “get” the point, but the words are very important. You’re confused because you’ve been taught to be confused on this point… as it benefits the sinful nature of Women. “The Devil is in the details” because he truly is.

  112. John Titor

    Sarah’s Daughter:
    A dance of sorts. In those times, a man would be a fool to reject his wife’s words of wisdom. If he believes this to be beneath him and his role as head of the family he is sadly missing out. Does he submit to her in those circumstances? Perhaps in that moment of insight.

    Perhaps the illustration of CO/XO needs to be brought up again. A Commanding Officer does not give up his authority when he takes advice (and even implements it) from his Executive Officer. It does not, and should not, be that way for the ideal husband and wife. There isn’t a miniscule window of lapsed authority – the husband is the one that made the decision to accept and act upon the words of wisdom, even if they are not his own. The information may have come from somewhere else, but the decision – and implied responsibility as well – lies with the husband.

    Thankful Husband:
    Sarah’s Daughter…EXACTLY! I’m not giving up my authority just because I cease to use it at that moment and it’s known by both of us.

    I think most sane people would agree, and trying to imply that readers on this blog said otherwise is either setting up a malicious strawman fallacy (which I kindly doubt you are trying to do) or you’re getting, as the previous poster pointed out, mixed up in terminology.

    I’m not going to address the terminology as I feel Looking Glass covered that well enough, so I’d like to instead add that it’s very possible to, while taking advice from the “XO” so to speak, to lose authority. It doesn’t have to be this way, but it can happen, and it does happen when the authoritative frame is lost. This is the difference between the employer polls his employees for ideas, likes them, and implements them, and the bedraggled employer who, with a sense of hopelessness, tells the employees, “Whatever you come up with is fine.”

  113. Rollo Tomassi

    Essentially a shit test is used by women to determine one, or a combination of these factors:

    a.) Confidence – first and foremost
    b.) Options – is this guy really into me because I’m ‘special’ or am I his only option?
    c.) Security – is this guy capable of providing me with long term security?

    Women’s shit testing is a psychologically evolved, hard-wired survival mechanism. Shit-tests are manifested Hypergamy. Women will shit test men as autonomously and subconsciously as a men will stare at a woman’s big boobs. They cannot help it, and often enough, just like men staring at a nice rack or a great ass, even when they’re self-aware of doing it they’ll still do it. Men want to verify sexual availability to the same degree women want to verify a masculine dominance / confidence.

    Women want to be with a Man who other men want to be and other women want to bang,..yes, even after 20 years of marriage. Hypergamy never sleeps.

  114. earl

    “Adam submitted to his wife, and all creation fell.”

    Submit to your wife and your family will fall.

    In a sense…it’s not being a jerk to women, it’s loving them. When you are a nice guy…you hate women and yourself. So submit to God only and do the right thing.

  115. earl

    And just like Christ gave himself up for the church.

    He did it freely of his own will.

  116. empathologism

    It is absolutely about the verbiage. It is evangelical feminist agitprop of the worst kind and adopting it cannot be done innocently and then specifics disclaimed as a corrective. Evangelical feminists have put in time mining the scriptures and playing every sort of syntax, lexicon, grammatical trick in order to render the plan spoken meaningless and back fill with terms that not only please their ears, but can be rationalized as safe and ok by anyone listening who isn’t careful.
    Ive linked it before but take a look at this blog if you want to see the end game of all that verbal hairsplitting:

    http://hupotasso.wordpress.com/category/word-study-greekhebrew/hupotasso/

    You cannot yield an inch to this or that is where it goes. The trick is to get folks attention using fear and extremes, then plug in these safe sounding terms that are a bit nebulous and have just enough there to placate the weaker men, yet embolden and empower the women who will then be led to full on female spiritual supremacy as she clearly shows on that blog. A veneer won’t hide it and won’t fix it.

    Another trick is to over define things.
    1 Peter 3:7….means basically be nice, be understanding and sympathetic. That’s it. It has nothing to do with some deep imperative such as Joel and Kathy have created and used to manufacture a conditional scenario where IF the man finally understands her heart she can then kinda sorta maybe do her little side of mutually submitting. Bunk from A to Z.

    1 Cor 7 3-5 same thing, over defined and made conditional.

    They have lots of tricks up their sleeves and offering succor by adopting their language is a bad idea.

    Finally, it was well explained about delegating not being submitting.

  117. sunshinemary

    @ Seeking Understanding

    Since the “cold hands” thing was fairly recent, maybe you can remember what your were thinking consciously when you had that “nagging feeling”…was it?

    –Wow, those hands are really cold, or
    –If I could get a smack on the bottom that would be really hot, or
    –I wonder if he’s turned into a wimp in the last few days

    or all or none of the above?

    I understand the idea of the subconscious motivation for fitness testing; what I don’t understand is what a woman who is a rational & conscious being is thinking at the conscious level when she employs these tactics with a man she really doesn’t have any doubts about.

    Hm, interesting question. It’s a vague sense of anxiety or irritation, and I’m just reacting to that. In my conscious mind, all I’m thinking is, “I’m irritated because he is (fill in the action or attribute).” Now that I’m more aware, I am also hoping that he will exhibit some sort of display of dominance because I know that will make the bad, anxious feeling go away. If you read RPW’s posts that I linked to in the OP, you’ll see what I mean about that.

    But I’m not really thinking it through in the moment. I wish I had a clearer answer for you, and maybe some of the other women here can add a bit.

    You know, the urge to fitness test feels uncomfortable and upsetting. It is doing your wife a kindness to respond quite firmly and with dominance. It makes that anxiety stop and replaces is with feelings of calm, safety, playfulness, and sexual attraction.

  118. earl

    You do the female great love by replacing her frame with yours…given that your frame is in a better state.

    If guys get butthurt that females do this…then either improve your frame or don’t interact with them anymore.

  119. Looking Glass

    @SSM:

    I guess I’ll be the one to go there, since that seems to be my role in life.

    The urge to Fitness Test is, for a guy, roughly like those times when your pants get really, really tight during the day. Occasionally at times that might make you vomit if you followed through with the thoughts that it’s attempting to lead you to.

    The difference seems to be that if a man had followed through further on those instincts when he was young, he would likely have been beaten, imprisoned or chemically castrated (depending on jurisdiction). Women, however, don’t face certain physical reprisal for not keeping it in their pants when they want to flail it about. (Considering passing a Fitness Test causes a sexual attraction reaction, they aren’t that dissimilar)

    So this ends up much like plenty of other sex-specific splits: women can get away with it because it doesn’t likely get anyone killed. Men, however, can turn something deadly, in a hurry, when they lose self-control. Thus, it’s not imposed on Women in the same way as Men. Well, unless they got slapped for it, but we can’t let that happen anymore!

  120. freebird

    Once again the sole dissenter speaks.

    It is my experience that all flavors of women try to shit test me on most occasions.

    Which often sends the wrong message that they are sexually interested.

    I think it is a product of society and the times,not an inherent biological drive.

    It is women testing social superiority.

    I care not for passing nor failing,just walking away as I find it for the opening moves of an intellectual/pseduo-feeling exploratory move in some odd power struggle where there is no power to be had.

    Frankly I find it draining of energy and most often quite offensive.

    It is the opposite of ‘demur’ a term for back in the day when women only talked to personally to their paramours,not every Joe on the street.

    Personally I just say “well there you go” and walk away.

    I do not care if it tingles or enrages.

    These women have no business talking to me in such a manner.

    It is an aggressive mating move once upon a time only in the male domain.
    Negging man does not produce the same result as negging a woman.

    “Yes I will have sex with you,but your husband has to watch.”

  121. freebird

    So looking glass also sees it as a serious act of aggression?

    That is surely what seems to have been said.
    My mother screeches at my father often,then talks softly to her woman friends on the phone.

    I find it an overt act of control,and he fails every time,because he has lost the battle of attrition long ago.

    It is easier for him to just go along (fail) than to continually fight The Power.

    Never me,dad,never me.

    Not from a wife
    Not from a stranger
    not in the morning
    nor in the evening
    not with green eggs and ham.
    I do not like green eggs and ham.

    Will fix my own “breakfast” thank you very much-TANK GRRLS.

  122. alcestiseshtemoa

    Language is important and most Churchian Protestant/Evangelical women (usually Anglo or with heavy ties to the English language) use it to their advantage in propagating false gods, idolatry and the spirit of Jezebel.

    Ever notice the recent trend of a higher number of Bible translations? Just Google “Bible Translations”. I got about 94 translations/different versions of the Bible in the English.

    In Portuguese there’s 2 major ones I think (one of them Protestant Almedia Version and another one Roman Catholic Pereira Version, the RCC seems better as a whole) and a whole others translated from English into Portuguese (like the NIV and their types, which I don’t bother with, because they seem to be dangerous in general).

  123. alcestiseshtemoa

    There’s a couple of translations like the English NIV translated into say, Spanish, French or Portuguese, and they are horrible. These books should be either denounced or alerted, and even in some dire circumstances, burned.

  124. sunshinemary

    Oh, Freebird and LG, your comments reminded me of something I was thinking about yesterday, which is that I don’t only fitness test my husband. I test other men, too, I realized. I think women often test men they have no intention of getting together with, but I am not sure why. There is no objective reason why I should fitness test other men, since I am very happily married to someone who satisfies my hypergamy and passes my marital fitness tests. Strange.

  125. earl

    “These women have no business talking to me in such a manner.”

    Even the most demure woman will give you these tests. They may not be in a yelling harpy tone…or do them often…but they will happen. You better be prepared when it comes…or don’t interact with them at all. My own relatives have done it to me…like you said it’s not a sex thing it’s a social thing.

    You are not seeing the forest from the trees. It actually rewards you to show her you can stand up to her.

    The guys that fail…get fat angry wives who want to leave. The guys that pass get the opposite.

    Only in today’s day and age…the government and justice system have become such white knighters and betas that men have a harder time showing they can pass these tests.

  126. Looking Glass

    A Fitness Test is an overt social conflict, dressed up in a deceitful manner, as a means to test the awareness and dominance of a Man. It might also be the answer to the question “Why is it we can never have nice things?”.

    So it’s not that you can ever away with never dealing with them. They’re annoying, but that’s where “agape” comes in. Patience is quite useful. Shoot down the basic ones, and you’ll never really have to deal with the nasty ones. Of course, it also helps to select for character. That’s pretty important, as well.

  127. Seeking Understanding

    In my case, I have frequently called my wife out on this kind of behavior. A couple of times, she has actually backed off and apologized. Much more frequently, she has escalated the anger and irrationality to higher and higher levels.

    Maybe a distinction needs to be drawn between Fitness Testing and plain straight-out emotional abuse?

    I believe she has always had a lot of anger. When we first me, she was angry at her parents and her then-boyfriend. Of course, I believed her side of the story on what was wrong with these relationships…

  128. Farm Boy

    There is no objective reason why I should fitness test other men, since I am very happily married to someone who satisfies my hypergamy and passes my marital fitness tests. Strange

    Indeed it is. As long as the state is secure, women are secure. So even a marginal husband is good enough.

    But no; the shit testing will continue until morale improves

  129. Thankful Husband

    You know that you guys are doing the same thing the other side is doing. You want to know how many times Sheila Wray Gregoire has said she won’t use the submit because it’s meaning has changed….she’s wanting her Bible to read her way and in order to get out of her obligations changes verbage. You are doing the same. I am not fighting over verbage. I am using the verbage God used. I stopped changing and started fighting for the words God used. I’m not letting them set the agenda or definition. Back in bible college and seminary I wish would have spent more time in Greek and Hebrew. I didn’t know the world was going to be run by lawyers who fight over verbage….

    Bottom line, verbage don’ mean crap unless you live it in front of people.

  130. freebird

    Earl,I just do not have the energy to play the games.

    To the gals I would say:
    If you really want a guy that knows himself you are going to want one that is honest,does not play a bit role in a rom-com.

    Women need to learn to approach.

    Since you have usurped the societal balance to such a large degree,the onus is upon you.

    All this talk of games being played out,and women are incapable of self direction to what they want?

    That is the only way to the precious fluids,the lousy fluids that every other women has gotten is easy pickings.

    I feel women are just lazy that way,used to having it easy,and plain SCARED of rejection.

    You don’t ask,you don’t get.

    Considering the risk/reward equation in place,this is the best advice you will ever read.

    But no,you want the walking entertainment center.

    Why does she get tired of the guy ‘laying about the home?’

    Because she is also home at those times.

    Looks in them mirror,and sees only the external,guys see the internal when we look in the mirror.

  131. Rollo Tomassi

    A man should never call out a woman on her shit testing. I realize this will piss off the the frustrated rationalist men who feel that the same rationality they possess is due to them from any woman they might pair off with, but as soon as that test is above board and in the realm of the overt, you fail that test. It benefits a Man far more when he Just Gets It, and responds to that test as a natural part of his personality:

    Just Get It

    When you say, “hah, fickle woman, I see through your hypergamous bullshit, shape up and act like a man, say what you mean and mean what you say” not only do you fail that test (by refusing to address it), but you also discard a very valuable opportunity to reinforce her confidence in you, which only bolsters her perception of you for the next shit test she will deliver.

    It does you no good to ‘call her out’ on a shit test, because women deliver them subconsciously – the tests wont stop because just you exposed them to sunlight. It’s far better, and far more affirming for a woman’s impression of the man she’s with when you covertly convey the message “I get it, and I’m the Man who knows how to deal with it.”

  132. earl

    “Earl,I just do not have the energy to play the games.”

    Sounds like a heart problem.

  133. Sarah's Daughter

    Much more frequently, she has escalated the anger and irrationality to higher and higher levels.

    I’m guilty of having done this. RLB’s reaction to it was to go to sleep or leave. When I could no longer abuse him verbally, I’d have to sit alone with my thoughts. Then came the shame. When I calmed down, I’d want to “talk about it” (another test) – he knew that I would escalate it more so he refused. He’d say “have you gotten over yourself yet?” “Are you done now?” One time when I was 20, I kicked a hole in the wall. RLB had a lot of fun with that one. Especially when he had to pay for it when we moved out of the apartment. “How’d that happen again, SD?” with a smirk.

  134. freebird

    Yes Rollo,you are correct,and admittedly intellectually superior to myself,that is why I like reading your stuff.

    Like I said to Earl,I just do not have the will nor energy.
    IRl I avoid and walk,on the net I can try to press for logic.

    Ssm humours me that way,she is a generous host.

    I do believe I have offended most of the other females in the sphere.

    Well I have to claim a victory,she is actually thinking *now* about why women shit test men they have no intention of ‘dating.’

    That there is a serious breakthrough as far as I can tell.

    Her husband should be paying me.

  135. earl

    “Well I have to claim a victory,she is actually thinking *now* about why women shit test men they have no intention of ‘dating.’”

    That’s good…now I can sit down and think why I’m sexually responsive to attractive ladies who I have no intention of marrying.

    Reproduction. And there is the answer to her question.

  136. freebird

    I did see SSM’s comment on the Phineas society page.

    (rain day,cabin fever)

    There is more substance to the feminine influence in the churches than has been discussed.

    It is my perception that women use theology as a blunt instrument against others than for personal inner discovery?

    Or is that just my misogyny talking?

    More words=more weapons?

    Anyhoo,that is my thought, a good reading of the book:
    “The Hiram Code” would explain what I am trying to express,it covers the history and use of religion from the get-go,it has a purpose and a plan.

    Be advised:
    The only way to come together is to drop those items that keep us apart,as much as we enjoy the power of holding those items.

    Really old folks start to ‘get’ this just before death comes,and it is a shame humans do not ‘get’ it much,much sooner.

    I think technology has a lot to answer for.

    My advice for 7 years from now:
    Don’t buy your kids technology that isolates them from real life experiences,or enables the wrong real life experiences.

    (hookup culture is enabled by cell phones,and the age is shockingly young)

    Tools of the devil!

    Go Luddite.

  137. Ev

    @tbc May 9, 2013 at 5:50 pm

    “Playing the long game for the sake of the daughters future marriage prospects. That’s some serious ‘concerned Christian mother’ game right there. Straight from the old country with a modern internet twist.”

    Wise parenting, that is. Wish these topics had been as developed a few years ago as they are now. Daughters 17 and 16 are on the lookout for devout, masculine, traditional Christian young men, but they’re surrounded by gammas. Son 22 has been burned twice by feminist churchian girls. Now he’s just biding his time, working out and working on his career, hoping the SMV curve will eventually work to his advantage because there aren’t any anti-feminist/truly feminine Christian young ladies nearby. Our short game plan: Summer road trips to churches in other states to try to find some like-minded families.

  138. freebird

    You are correct in a way earl,it is a muscular problem,and also lack of a strong father figure.

    Dad did really good,but he’s lost in the 50’s.

    @Elspeth-Thanks,now say what you really mean.

  139. earl

    There in lies the point why marriages need a lot of God in them. He is the one who inflames hearts.

    Because you can’t take out men looking at pretty women…or women testing other men. Actually it’s reproduction for the male side and hypergamy for the females. Men in general can display better self control in their matters especially if they pass their wives tests. She will reward him and as a result he will have less of a reason to stray.

    Fail the tests and it’s a matter of time before either he finds a more attractive lady or she finds a man who passes her tests. If your heart is dead…this risk increases quickly.

  140. Martel

    @ SSM: “I test other men, too, I realized. I think women often test men they have no intention of getting together with, but I am not sure why. There is no objective reason why I should fitness test other men, since I am very happily married to someone who satisfies my hypergamy and passes my marital fitness tests. Strange.”

    Your instincts don’t know that your husband will be there forever, and widowhood used to be pretty common. Also, hypergamy doesn’t shut off. You’re subconsicously seeking desireable mates even if you’ll never actually go for it.

    Also, if possible, please re-categorize my blog under “Christian”. I might attract some obnoxiously self-righteous readers, but considering how central Christianity is to my world-view it feels weird being “secular”, even if a lot of my topics are.

  141. deti

    “I don’t only fitness test my husband. I test other men, too, I realized. I think women often test men they have no intention of getting together with, but I am not sure why. There is no objective reason why I should fitness test other men, since I am very happily married to someone who satisfies my hypergamy and passes my marital fitness tests. Strange.”

    I’m going to refer to women generally and not SSM in particular.

    I think one or more of the following is going on when a woman fitness tests a man she’s not married to or dating or sexually interested in.

    1. Women generally are more equal in society and in day to day interaction with everyone around them, including men. So women I think try to tease and neg men, try to test men to see if they will stand up for themselves, simply because women can act this way and there are no social or other consequences for doing so. It is now verboten for anyone — especially a man — to criticize or call out a woman for anything she does or says.

    2. I wonder if some of what’s going on here also is that as men and women interact with each other more on a day to day basis, a woman is trying to find out who the “real men” are around her. She might be assessing threats — men who might try to tempt her or make sexual advances. She might also be assessing who could protect her and her children in an emergency or crisis.

    3. But I also wonder if there isn’t some underlying sexual attraction going on also. Perhaps she doesn’t realize it but there is some sexual attraction for a man she fitness tests, though she has no intention of ever sleeping with the man. She fitness tests him because:

    (a) it’s innate and hard wired and automatic for her to test and challenge a man she’s sexually attracted to;

    (b) she hopes he fails the test so she can compare her husband favorably to this man and thus satisfy herself that her husband is “better” than this man who failed the test; or

    (c) she just wants to see if she is still sexually attractive to him and can get him to pass the test or at least respond to it.

  142. Farm Boy

    “Earl,I just do not have the energy to play the games.”

    Sounds like a heart problem.

    Look at the women around you. Consider the payoff. Then consider the required investment. Then do the math.

  143. freebird

    Again to earl:
    It is true men are attracted to just about any nubile young thing.
    However the society has taught us not to approach them,as it’s ‘creepy.’

    Now if we can just fit shit testing into that box.

    That is to say,accountability and agency.

    Women show offense easily,men cannot.

    We go along to get along,and avoid legal problems.

    So many boxes to control,label,and fit men into!

    I just don’t fit anymore,lost my utility,now becoming a ‘human being’ rather than ‘man doing.’

    It is not allowed,most would prefer me dead or out of sight.

  144. deti

    @ Martel:

    Excellent point. I commented at about the same time you did. But your point is a good one

  145. earl

    “Look at the women around you. Consider the payoff. Then consider the required investment. Then do the math.”

    The path to Heaven is a narrow one for a reason…people don’t have patience.

    Replace women with the world and your frame with God’s. In that scenerio…your investment/payoff ratio would appear not in your favor at first. Jesus was brutally beaten and got nailed to a cross for trying to help people. The reward however was destroying death and establishing a church that is still going.

    You get your payoff down the road.

    [ssm: Excellent point and worth remembering lest one become embittered.]

  146. Farm Boy

    It is not allowed,most would prefer me dead or out of sight.

    That depends on whether you pay taxes or not.

  147. freebird

    That is an excellent summation Deti.

    What is missing (from women) is the awareness of consideration for the other half of the equation.

    Let’s play swap the genders:

    A man does cold approaches to every gal under 29 that he comes across.
    How many gals under 25 will he approach before one makes a fuss about ‘creeping,’ and calls The law?

    Recent post in the Detroit Free Press:

    A guy on U of M’s campus had been cold approaching women,telling them they were beautiful,asking for dates,and in some instances allegedly tried to kiss them.

    He was interrogated and warned to discontinue that ‘threatening behavior.’

    I’m not asking for domination over anyone,just some common courtesy.

    If a gal wants to date,she should say so.

    If she does not,do not ‘test’ me.

    The trap is spring loaded,and what we call ‘a widow maker.’

  148. sunshinemary

    I’m wondering if the motivation for fitness testing other men is different depending on who the man is.

    Earl has mentioned that his grandma has fitness tested him. I’m pretty sure I’ve done the same to my father and my brother, so that is definitely not a sexual attraction issue. It probably falls more under #2 from Deti’s list.

    Martel’s comment about widowhood might be part of the reason. God (or evolution if that’s your gig) gave us the tendency always to be aware of the potential need to find a new husband in case something bad happens to the old one. It sounds so crass to put it in blunt terms like that, but from her biological point view, well, she and the kids gotta eat, you know?

    I suppose it’s the female version of keeping two in the kitty. It kind of bothers me to think about it, though, so I won’t.

  149. Bluedog

    I think there’s a bit of a Socratic question/answer dialectic going on in this comment section that is vital – and I think this subject is one of the “small” ones that is really basically huge – so the vitality of the dialectic is a reflection of how important it is to all of us. One guesses that whole marriages, and by easy extension – whole lives of men, women and their children alike, basically hang or hung in the balance of the outcome of the dialectic and unfortunately too many of us ended up married before we had access to any dialectic quite like this.

    I went through the comments to pick out key highlights that put the dialectic into focus:

    1.
    “Women is to shit test…is like men gazing at beautiful women. Sure you shouldn’t do it in marriage…but it happens.”
    Earl

    2.
    “It can be done. All women have to do is stop doing it. I can control myself, why can’t she?”
    Farm Boy

    3.
    “The point of this article is to point out that fitness testing is what women do to men because of their sinful nature as SSM clearly states above she was wrong for doing it.”
    Caradoc

    4.
    “I understand the idea of the subconscious motivation for fitness testing; what I don’t understand is what a woman who is a rational & conscious being is thinking at the conscious level when she employs these tactics with a man she really doesn’t have any doubts about.”
    Seeking Understanding

    …and lastly – the **yes you have a point but I think you may be going a little bit far with it** from Keoni Galt:

    5.
    “Remember – attraction is not a logical decision. You have to FEEEEEEEL it. You have all the logical reasons in the world to be attracted to your husband…but that LMR shit test you threw at him made you FEEL it.

    “In short, shit testing is not a sin.

    “It’s foreplay.”

    The comparison to men gazing at hot women is apt in that it puts the “unconscious” and “unconsciously *motivated*” aspects of this behavior into focus and helps to make it more understandable – especially where we can say that “it is wrong” but we can also say that it isn’t necessarily intended.

    To take that microscope from 10x to 400x, let me add a few observations.

    The “unconscious” aspect of the fitness test is like the “Imp”.

    The Imp is that devious feeling you get … “you” being EVERYONE – male and female – when you get that irrepressible feeling or drive inside to do something that you know you probably shouldn’t, but it is as if your conscious agency goes 90% dormant when the Imp comes out, so you act out on it anyway.

    A conscious person learns to tame his Imp most of the time. An unconscious person comes to be rules by his or her Imp.

    A couple examples.

    1. Did you see the History channel miniseries Vikings? There is the part where the upstart viking Ragnar openly challenges the wisdom of the ruling Earl in public before a feast. The Earl, recognizing the challenge and public insult … invites Ragnar back afterwards to a private discussion to put him in his place. One could almost say … the Earl was doing Ragnar a favor!

    Ragnar was probably right on the substance of his challenge. But the public challenge, was his Imp acting out.

    The funny thing for me watching that scene is that I had recently did nearly exactly the same thing – publicly challenged one of my (significant) superiors. Of course we weren’t discussing whether we should pillage England or Moscow, but while there was merit to my challenge, the public way that I conducted it was my Imp. It was the behavior of a 22 year old. It was unbecoming of someone of my age and status. And I, like Ragnar, received a “talking to” on account of it.

    2. Last night I stopped my car before driving into the carport and told my kids to go inside while I talked on the cell phone in my car. Older kid starts to go in but my daddy-sense told me he was really keyed up so I stopped him on his way in and whispered in his ear, “go in, take a shower, and COMPLETELY leave your brother alone, do you understand?” He nodded and went.

    Kid 2 – sat in the back seat … he had to use the bathroom but was completely sure that Older kid would be hiding or doing something to startle/scare if he went in without me. I insisted to younger to toughen up and go in while I finished my call.

    I went in moments later. Chaos. Absolutely chaos. Older kid had completely acted out on his Imp, hid behind a door, scared the bejesus out of younger.

    I talked with older about it later. Older was COMPLETELY aware of what he was doing. What was beautiful was his honest description of how he KNEW what he was doing was wrong, but he just had this DRIVE inside to do it.

    His Imp.

    The fitness test is like the Imp that we all have and all occasionally submit to, but it is specifically concerned with women’s deep, base, primal need to test that a man is fit to have a child with her … in the state of nature she would, after all, be dependent on him for 9 months than 4-7 years while she is pregnant and tends to a helpless child after all. In a state of nature … she had BETTER fitness test him, as much as in a state of nature, … if he wants to pass on his genes, he had BETTER select a fertile woman. There are good reasons for the drives.

    But our drives are drives and while they serve a purpose, being owned by them HURTS our partners. If a man in a badass in tournament … his is PASSING a fitness test. He also exposes himself to bodily danger, even death. Expecting a man to permanently pass in tournament for a never-ending stream of attraction trigger stimulation … hurts your man. Without end, it will kill him early. And expecting a woman to be forever fertile, eventually discards her.

    Which is why, while I admit Keoni Galt has a point, I think he takes the point a bit too far. Sexuality is a dimension and attraction is central to why we couple at all. If men want women to be fertile, women are on good standing to expect men to be fit.

    But marriage and monogamy are, at end, besides for family and raising children: things that exist because we get old and with the old, the fertile and the fit pass away and hopefully what remains in their passing are two people who have loved one another, with all the nonsexual dimensions that that entails.

  150. Farm Boy

    SSM, your views are clouded because you are married to HHG. Most men are not alphas (and society really would not want it to be otherwise, as the quickest way to alpha is through being a thug).

    If my parents had the feralocracy of today when they were young, I never would have been born. My Mom would have shit tested my Dad and they never would have been married.

  151. freebird

    @farm boy
    Well, I buy stuff.Hehe.

    It is a bit of a cruse to be so good looking,I get the attention of the gals yet lack the will or energy to follow through.

    I do put on a great false front,but I also know I have not the stamina to carry on for long periods of time.

    I could pull a bunch of one nighters,but stupid me thinks the value is in the bonding.

    Stupid!
    Smacks head

  152. sunshinemary

    Farm Boy:

    My Mom would have shit tested my Dad and they never would have been married.

    I don’t know your parents, of course, but I do know two things:

    1. All women fitness test to some degree and
    2. children are not always privy to every interaction their parents have.

    My children didn’t see that latest fitness test because they were asleep. You don’t always see these things, and they are not always nuclear blow ups. In fact, they often aren’t. They can be very subtle power plays that kids don’t even notice. They can look like joking around. It does’t have to lead to hell on Earth, either, so long as he asserts himself and doesn’t let her get away with it.

    There is also another point I’d like to make, but I would prefer to do it via email. May I?

  153. earl

    You could probably translate everything around this statement.

    Women acting like women…your payment is instant.
    Men acting like men…your payment is down the road.

    My mom was my means of survival when I came into the world. My dad raised me to survive in the world when I left the house.

    Girls get their value at 15…men have to wait until their late 20s-early 30s.

    Girls put up a picture on facebook…get 30 likes. I say a statement on there that makes a person think and their conversion is 5 years later.

  154. freebird

    That was well said blue dog.
    I feel it should be ‘won and done.’

    Perhaps this is where the differences in bonding come along,that women must have two in the kitty,the support and approval of the herd,and men ‘lock down’ to one woman,at least as far as materiel support,and very often in all ways.

    Hence the ‘fickle’ charge.

  155. empathologism

    I am using the verbage God used.

    Mutual submission is not a term in the bible. The two words together, then foist upon future verses, render meaningless what is plainly stated.
    In my case I am not fussing over what word to use as much as saying its wrong whats being stated per the meaning of the word actually being used. You do not submit to your child. There is no reason to force the word submit into that scenario just because submit is one way of saying “subject to” in the bible.

    There is another thing. Its great to try and adhere to the words from the bible. But, if you accept that those words have been corrupted by feminists, then no matter how much disclaiming you do people will read what they want to, and if there is any desire to seek changing a random readers mind, one who may not be commenting just reading along, then you must avoid affording them the escape hatch of falling into wiggly interpretations that have been sold through blogs and people such as the one I linked.

  156. freebird

    “so long as he asserts himself and doesn’t let her get away with it.”

    The criteria between desired domination and the current zeitgeist of ‘abuse’ is determined by the quantity of the woman’s ongoing rebellion.

    The male no longer is ‘safe’ in asserting.

    Most effective tool ever for destroying families,and it’s The law now.

  157. Athor Pel

    “earl May 9, 2013 at 3:18 pm

    “if either of my grannies tried to shit test their husbands, the first warning look would have settled it”

    Hate to break it to you…my own grandmother shit tested me. And she grew up in “the bad old days”.

    It’s a bug in the system from the apple bite.”

    My grandma did it to me too. Funny stories.

    My grandparents had a pond. Me and Granny went fishing one day. I must have been all of 8 years old. She cast the bait different than I did and tried to get me to do it her way. She was pretty bossy when the mood hit her. I told her, “You do it your way. I’ll do it mine.” It shut her down completely. Didn’t say another word about the casting the whole time we were fishing.

    When we were done fishing she told my Dad and Grandpa about it, they even had me repeat what I had told her so they could get the full effect in my own voice. Dad and Grandpa thought it was the funniest thing, laughed their butts off over it. They laughed of and on for days actually. I was a source of endless mirth it seemed. Grandpa loved it.

    I must say, I handled that episode much better than a previous one.

    In this one I was 4 years old or so. I don’t remember the exact circumstances but I remember being very angry and that my Grandma is who got me angry. I grabbed a full size shovel, metal head, hickory shaft, taller than I was. I beaned Grandma in the head with that shovel, rang her bell so bad she couldn’t see straight for a little bit and she almost fell down right then and there. Grandpa busted my butt good. I deserved it, I knew it. I was just very very angry and I was angry because I had been provoked.

    Grandma could just rub people the wrong way, she did it by constantly trying to impose her frame on those around her.

  158. Elspeth

    @Elspeth-Thanks,now say what you really mean.

    What I meant is that your decision to live life on your own terms (or God’s terms only if you are a Christian) is a commendable one.

    I hesitate to do this but my husband is the only frame of real life reference I have for this (besides my father).

    He has always been the kind of guy not interested in earning points or getting along, willing to stand alone if he was truly convinced his path was the right one.

    When we first met he was 19. That was almost 21 years ago so I’m fairly certain he wasn’t reading game blogs or books. Nevertheless, he made it clear that he wanted me, but didn’t need me so much that he was willing to jump through hoops to get me. If anyone was gonna be hoop jumping, it would be me. Like a moth to a flame, I was.

    I think the idea that a “beta male” is a turnoff is a bit of a stretch. That’s only a turnoff is the man in question is allowing the woman he is interested in to tell him if he’s good enough. If he’s already tilled that internal ground himself, she has less power. That’s a very good thing at the beginning of a relationship.

    Seriously, how many truly alpha males are walking around out there? I would say not many. and trying to fake until you make it? Not sure that works.

    But anyone can get comfortable in their own skin. And you sir, seem to me as if you’ve gotten comfortable in your own skin.

    Women are gonna like you, even if you’ve gone MGTOW.

    I hope I clarified my meaning.

  159. empathologism

    But I also wonder if there isn’t some underlying sexual attraction going on also. Perhaps she doesn’t realize it but there is some sexual attraction for a man she fitness tests, though she has no intention of ever sleeping with the man. She fitness tests him because:

    (a) it’s innate and hard wired and automatic for her to test and challenge a man she’s sexually attracted to;

    Yes, this. Its as old as the hard to get/easy to get apparent contradiction.

  160. Martel

    I think part of the reason for more shit-testing within even Christian marriages is the overall moral breakdown of society.

    100 years ago, women knew that divorce wasn’t an option. It wasn’t just a moral question for her, she simply couldn’t do it.

    Now, whether or not a woman leaves her husband is almost entirely a moral question. If she wants to unleash her hypergamy, she can.

    She might have no desire whatsoever to leave her husband, but the simple fact is that she hasn’t completely left the sexual marketplace. She’ll therefore need more reassurance of her husband’s fitness than she would if she knew that her hypergamy would have to remain dormant no matter what.

  161. Athor Pel

    “Thankful Husband May 9, 2013 at 3:27 pm

    I do believe it’s the wife’s job to submit…it mentions it over and over again BUT verse 21 clearly states “submit to one another out of reverence for Christ”.
    …”

    You just contradicted yourself and it’s because of your interpretation of verse 21. And it is because your interpretation of verse 21 relies on a feminist view of men and women. A feminist view of men and women that says they are equal to such an extent that women are seen as men in every social sense. Which we know is not true. And you are justifying it with other verses that talk of God not being a respecter of persons and all being equal value in His eyes.

    Having equal value in God’s eyes is not the same as having the same place in the social hierarchy, not does it say anything about that person’s inborn strength and abilities or their need to rely on the stronger members of their family and church which are invariably the men.

    Finally it’s about point view or context.
    Verse 21 is a man talking to other men in the church. Every verse not directly addressing women is addressing men by default. It is a leader in the church addressing other leaders. Context matters. The context from which the authors of the Bible wrote was man centered. Men ran society. Men ran their churches. Men ran their families.

    Get it now?

    The meaning of verse 21 is a call to be open to correction from other church members. Do you really think a female church member should call out the sin of the male church members? If you want order in the church she goes to her husband and he decides how to deal with it. That’s all. Haven’t you read the whole of the Bible? The father centered family/tribe/clan is the model that is described with example after example. A woman has a problem with a man not her husband, she goes to her husband first.

    Read in the Old Testament where women would only be held to their verbal contracts if their husband or father didn’t gainsay them within one day. Or where the only person legally permitted to divorce and thereby legally end a marriage was a husband. If the wife left without getting the divorce certificate she was still legally married to the man she left and any man having sex with her was committing adultery.

    To say it again, verse 21 is a message from a man to other men because it is their responsibility to keep order in the family and the church.

    You might as well be saying that full grown men should submit to children as well because it’s just as ludicrous.

    And it this rubs anyone the wrong way then take it up with God. I didn’t make things this way, God did. Read you Bible and pray about it.

  162. empathologism

    Athor Pel…..exactly.

    The contradiction cannot be more evident. If “mutual submission” was some blanket over arching concept, whats the point in mentioning wife’s submission. Its nonsensical. Also, we cannot be subject to one another, mutual subjection….makes even less sense and leads to the two who never get through the door for saying “after you”. It always makes me think of Alvin the chipmunk cartoons

  163. Bluedog

    @freebird, re: “I feel it should be ‘won and done.'”

    Pretty much my feelings about it exactly. I look about at my life and the world I created around myself and … it’s not bad. Pretty damn good really. I think you are maybe saying that in the context of marriage one should be able to say “won and done”, but I guess divorced and single, first distant whiff of shafitness test I get, kind like “Not obvious enough that I’m ‘fit’? just. not. worth-it-babe. c-ya.”

  164. anonymous

    [ssm: This made me laugh so hard.

    PUA maxim: “get her laughing”.

    Actually, he has nine shotguns now, I believe, something like that.

    Or maybe not. I’m offically reporting you as having been a bad girl on the internet. HHG’s job is to punish you. I don’t know exactly how, but, you’ll thanl me later for turning you in.

    Hmmm, we have a seven-year-old…a real cutie, but she literally never stops talking. Ever. She even talks in her sleep. Does your 9 year old like listening?

    He never stops talking. He’s very tall for his age, blond, blue eyed, handsome, into science, homeschooled, and a Cub Scout.

  165. earl

    @freebird…

    You certainly made me think. I’d agree with you in that it should be this way…but the current structure makes it difficult to attain.

    If I had it my way…I’d tell Eve to jam that apple into the serpant’s mouth. That would have ended every shit test ever created by women.

  166. freebird

    Thanks Elspeth,you are too kind.

    At 49 years of age I have finally come to question my deep Christian faith.

    What really gets me going is some of the links I find here to feminist ‘teachers’ and what I’ve seen of the local churches.

    My soul longs for an Orthodox church that teaches solid doctrine and supports masculinity.

    Women are not the only ones grieving the loss of masculine behavior.

    So much that I do
    (volunteer work) comes under criticism that I know is 2nd hand shit tests delivered by power mad (emasculated) husbands,seeking some kind of masculine dominance,but lacking in logical criteria for their observations.

    I am honestly at the point where the only people I care to talk with are the very elderly and confirmed bachelors.

    So many people trying to direct and control,but none of them thinking in MY best interest.

    I’m not doing approaches,women place themselves into my field of view and initiate conversation,but none of them are confident enough to actually ask me out.

    I feel the weight of the expected performance of “cocky/funny” upon me like an anchor,and will not dance like an organ grinder monkey.

    I have been through the courts on false charges and am a very serious individual.

    I’ve always been held to account for every minute deed and action,and it is very easy to reverse the microscopic criteria back unto those who wouldst eye me in the same vein.

    At this point,there is probably nothing
    a woman could do to make me ask her out.

    Right now I have food,shelter,and am free,a woman could and would take that away,if she had the whimsey to do it.
    That is not acceptable.
    Not at all.

    Be glad you found a husband back before
    the feminist war went from cold to hot.

    This has to be the most precarious time in history for american men.

    With all the media hype,it is easy to feel the tarnish of imputed criminality.

    I am done being the whipping boy.

    No tread on me.

    Thanks again fro your kind thoughts, it is true,I often now-a-days have a nasty demeanor.

    I try to hide it the best I can.

    Apologies for all the projection,it’s a madhouse out there.

  167. Thankful Husband

    I have read my Bible…quite a lot and believe in patriarchy but you are leaving out a great many verses my friend. i know the straightline is easier to follow and takes out all the pesky details of real life and real situations but our faith and our calling is a little more complex than that. We aren’t going to agree so I’m just going to leave it alone. Thanks anyway for your effort in answering my question.

  168. anonymous

    Freebird…..seriously….. leave the country.

    You want Orthdox…
    Go to Russia, where the girls are hot.
    Or go to Mount Athos, where the girls are NOT.

  169. freebird

    Hey thanks,that is a fine idea.
    I know I’ve talked about myself too much already,but in my next story I have a concept to introduce on another female behavior: Needless flirting to obtain offers she does not intend to take advantage of.

    Actually I did ask a gal out,a decent looking for late 40’s gal working a parts counter.
    I was impressed with her knowledge of small engine parts,and she was quite amicable and indicated she was new to the area and did not know her way around.
    (hint,hint)

    So I said:
    “You should give me your number so I can show about the area.”

    More or less.

    Well,the reaction was a bit unexpected,she seemed horrified at the idea,there was a genuine panic in her eyes and she said “not at this time.”

    So the translation to me was:
    “I’ve got an insane x-husband/boyfriend still around and he’s quite jealous,and you’re not a MMA fighter,so that is going to be a problem.”

    My reaction was one of relief.
    Really: who wants to get caught up in a situation like that?

    She probably has children by other men also,I did not ask.

    So that’s my new question,why would she solicit invitations if she had no plan to accept them?

    It is the opposite of the shit testing,it was all sweetness,but I do think some of the motivations are identical.

    Someone layout a map to this minefield?

    It is true about the lack of stress,I am as close to true happiness in my as I have ever been,going it alone with my hunting and fishing.
    My nasty demeanor is a result of:
    1.Physical pain
    2.The emotional pain inflicted by the betrayal of legal due process, a real feeling of betrayal and violation there,and also the manipulations of men for utility/entertainment.

    Is there no clear headed women out there?
    Do none of them desire the quiet sheltered life over continual drama and vicious problems?

    Just how did things get so bad so quickly?

    And if there are women like that,why do they not approach with confidence and take measures to make a relationship as easy and pleasant as possible?
    Nuts!

    I did get a marriage offer from a 69 year old women who’s husband is beginning to fail,right in front of him.
    I may take her up on it,even though she desires game~!
    And says she hopes I am servicing women often?

    What is up with that,that the women want a skank/whore/male?

    You would think a low N count and disease free,and also easy going and as Elspeth said “comfortable in my skin” would be a sweet deal by itself?
    Nuts!

  170. anonymous

    Dude…. basic rule… no matter what age you are: Never date a woman over 30

    There are exceptions…. A 32 year old woman who married as a virgin at 22, and was widowed young….. a 34 year old who was seriously injured in an accident at 20 and spent most of her prime marriage years in physical rehab, not carouselling… that sort of thing.

    But these are RARE exceptions. Generally, most over 30 single women have chosen their status, whether they realizse it or not. They are bad, bad bets for marriage.

  171. sunshinemary

    Sunshine Mary asked Farmboy:

    There is also another point I’d like to make, but I would prefer to do it via email. May I?

    Perhaps you are waiting for a multiple choice to answer? OK.

    May I email you? Choose one:

    a. Sure, Sunshine Mary, I’d be happy to hear what you want to tell me because I value your insightful pearls of wisdom.
    b. No, Sunshine Mary. I am an exasperating curmudgeon and don’t want to hear it. lalalalalalala, I can’t heeeear you.
    c. Buy me a beer and tell me to my face, b-tch.

  172. sunshinemary

    You’re mean, Farm Boy. You are second on my list of people to ban, after my husband.

    Anyway, I changed my mind. I don’t want to tell you now. Not even if you beg me will I tell you. You will die wondering what I was going to say but you will never know.

  173. anonymous

    You’re mean, Farm Boy. You are second on my list of people to ban, after my husband.

    Maybe it’s just because it’s Friday but that sort of sounds kinky…

    Anyway, I changed my mind. I don’t want to tell you now. Not even if you beg me will I tell you. You will die wondering what I was going to say but you will never know.

    Yup. Covert sexual tease. My theory from yesterday gets proved again and again.

    HHG needs to put her on a leash.

    [ssm: It's date night for us. In-laws are on their way over to babysit the fruit of our loins and we are going out. Maybe I can suggest a pet supplies store...*dreamy eyes*]

  174. grey_whiskers

    @sunshinemary wrote: May 10, 2013 at 9:39 am

    Oh, Freebird and LG, your comments reminded me of something I was thinking about yesterday, which is that I don’t only fitness test my husband. I test other men, too, I realized. I think women often test men they have no intention of getting together with, but I am not sure why. There is no objective reason why I should fitness test other men, since I am very happily married to someone who satisfies my hypergamy and passes my marital fitness tests. Strange.

    SSM,
    Two ideas. Or three.
    1) Maybe your hamster is seeking for a battle it thinks it can *win*…?
    2) Chart these “outside” shit tests for a couple of months and see if you can spot correlations with any other, hmm, events.
    3) Just for practice’s sake?

  175. Farm Boy

    You are second on my list of people to ban, after my husband.

    Good company, I suppose.

  176. Farm Boy

    Maybe I can suggest a pet supplies store

    What have I wrought?

    My Mom always used to say “Hold your horses” when I got impatient. Perhaps HHG should get you a horse bridle instead. A pretty pink one.

  177. Farm Boy

    Well SSM, guys are not supposed to take advice from chicks, but since I made you an honorary guy, I might just do so from you.

  178. anonymous

    I move that SSM put on the new collar, and use a pic of herself in it, as her avatar. She may black out her eyes with a censor-block if she wishes.

    Anyone second that motion?

  179. anonymous

    Woof

    Interesting… suggests a possible pose for the shot. Of course it’ll only be a face pic… but the head is facing down and turned sideways for the camera, the implication will be obvious…

    And remember my original thesis…. she plays hot on the net, to increase her daughter’s future attractiveness. I’ll bet she does it.

  180. Farm Boy

    I see that you are Ferengi.

    How about gold plated latinum?

    Would you take tribbles? You will multiply your winnings

  181. an observer

    Frankly I find it draining of energy and most often quite offensive.

    Describes my life as a churchian nice guy,dealing with the games church girls play.

    I can apply basic game technique now. But what little red pill insight i have is twenty years too late to save my respect for women in general. In hindsight, it was a bit much to expect civility from status crazed harpies.

    Using the excuse that they women were compelled to fitness test is a furphy. I might feel compelled to check out young women half my age, but i restrain myself. Its called moral agency and freewill.

    Unless of course, we want to conclude that women can fitness test to their hamsters content because they have no moral agency.

  182. Farm Boy

    multiple choice

    SSM, everybody who knows me knows that I don’t do multiple choice. Email me and find out why…

  183. Looking Glass

    @Farm Boy:

    I think Black Knighting is going to become far more common. Granted, this policy is going to be in court probably by the end of Summer. A Federal judge is going to be laughing at the DoJ & DoE lawyers the entire time.

  184. an observer

    Re the black knighting.

    Have tried that at work lately with the more offensive misandrist comments, usually made by the most diverse staff members. Of course i am not at all taken seriously. After all, i am a member of the oppressive class.

    From my cubicle and lowly status at work, that is just ludicrous.

  185. Farm Boy

    So is fitness testing 102 coming soon? And how are you going to verify the pre-req of FT 101?

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  190. Patrick Pedat Ebediyah Golston

    Hey SSM, LOVE YOUR BLOG!

    So, I stop by my buddies house…

    His wife has one of her ‘girlfriends’ over. She’s checking me out as I move from room to room. The wife gives her the 411 on me, unaware that the husband had already filled me in on this phony wayward Churchian chick who is an adulteress and hypergamist, and worse of all a hoodrat (eww).

    Her: “Got these new jeans from BCBG, you likey, Mr PG?”
    Me: “Nah, don’t really dig these new lowrider jeans with big pockets and bright stitching. And yours are embroidered like a man’s wallet”

    (husband cracks up, wife knows what I mean – starts mean mugging me)

    Her: “What? Huh? What did he say? Oh…you tryin’ to be cute? You saying I look fat?? I know you ain’t sayin’ I look fat!”
    Me: (she didn’t get it) “I wouldn’t know if they made you look fat unless I saw you buck-naked before you put them on, mamma, and I’m sure you’ve already had them on and off a bunch of times already today. So, maybe after I get to know you better, okay, boo.”

    Was I being an asshole? Yes?
    Is she used to wayward Betas fawning over a big booty and a smile? Yes?
    Am I interested in this sort of unsanctified f*ckery? No?

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