Should girls go to college to get their MRS degrees?

Recently I heard one of our younger daughters chanting:

Girls go to college to get more knowledge,

Boys go to Jupiter to get more stupider!

Well, I told her, at least the boys don’t say more stupider.  Girls with such bad grammar obviously need more knowledge.  She made a wry face at me and skipped off.  Ah, the war of the sexes is so easy at that age, when the opposite sex is cootie-infested, worthy only to be mocked and then avoided at all costs.  But the part about girls go to college to get more knowledge is interesting because I am not sure it is entirely accurate.

During my freshman orientation at the University of Michigan, I met a girl who told me she was there to get her MRS degree – to find a young man who would have a good education and high earning potential.  “I want all of my children to have their own bedrooms,” she explained to me as we wandered across the diag in the July heat with our group leader, “and definitely wall-to-wall carpet.”

She had it all planned out; she’d grown up in poverty and wanted to escape from it, a sentiment I fully understood, having grown up in similar circumstances. However, while I myself had recently become engaged to a young man from a well-off family (an engagement I later broke, though I did end up finding my husband my senior year), I was startled by this girl who was already thinking in terms of matched furniture sets.  I knew I wanted to fall in love and marry young to someone who would ensure that I did not ever again have to be cold or hungry, but I figured I was at college to get a degree and some kind of job for myself as well.  She seemed to have no such aspirations; her attendance at U of M was apparently about marrying the boy with the most earning potential as quickly as possible.  At least she was honest about her intentions.

However, U of M is a fairly competitive school, with an acceptance rate of roughly 15%.  This girl was one of that 15%, which means that another applicant, who may have intended to use that education for a serious career, didn’t get in.  As for me…well, after a Bachelor’s and two Master’s degrees, I work about eight to ten hours per week in my field, which means I am basically a housewife. And my undergraduate degree was largely paid for by the state and federal governments, so thank you tax payers for giving me an excellent but largely unused education whereby I was able to  find a good husband.

Are university educations, especially at elite schools, a good idea for women who are going to end up as housewives?  My knee jerk reaction is no, but I can sort of see why yes is also a possible answer.  So when reader 30Words, a married woman, emailed me with the following question, I decided to turn it into a post and open it up for group discussion.  Here is her question:

Regularly mentioned on your blog is the concept of a woman’s education in no way contributing to her attractiveness to a man.  Today Deti wrote in the comment thread

“3. You have got to get over the idea that your job, your salary, your connections, your friends, or your life experiences make you attractive. THEY DO NOT. The ONLY things that make you sexually attractive are your looks, followed by a feminine personality as a distant, distant second.”

Also you mentioned several days ago that you will encourage your daughters to marry young and not go to college.  I married young myself and see a great value in your advice.  But I would like to discuss with you the reality that virtually no men with a nice education marry women with a HS diploma only.  My evidence for this is purely anecdotal.  But I will say this.  My husband and I went through school together and on to graduate school.  In all the men that we know and everyone that I’ve met I can only think of two instances of women with only a HS diploma marrying a man with higher education.

My explanations are this: Access and selection bias.  Women in college have access to the men that are getting the educations in ways that hair dressers or stay at home daughters do not.  Also- the kind of women who do not go on to college (in some instances beauty school girls) have other factors like: they are from a broken home and are already single moms and otherwise damaged – that’s why they didn’t go on to college anyway.

Do you think that these two instances explain the whole phenomenon? I heard said once that, “opposites attract, but the things we have in common are like money the bank for a relationship.”  When the men of our county are spending 4-8 even 10 years in post secondary education is there a factor of “what is he going to have in common” with a person without that education?

… I agree with you and do find all these years of “education” to be mostly worthless.  I’m simply commenting on a situational reality that I see and that is even here in the midwest where there are lots of farm boys (not said in a derogatory way) and nice men wanting to settle down.  It would be unusual to find a 30 year old unmarried man here.  It seems that if you are a woman with no education you will marry a man with no education and he will be out in the oil patch pushing tools, grueling back breaking work that takes you away from home for 2 or 3 weeks at a time if you are unfamiliar with this, or in the ARMY if she is very lucky.  A plumber or a carpenter would be ideal but finding a relatively young skilled tradesman would be like finding a unicorn.

So what is a mother to tell her daughters?  It seems there are two choices: “honey, don’t go on to college because it is a ridiculous waste- marry a good but most likely poor man, you will have to work and y’all will struggle all of your lives.” or “Go on a meet a college boy, be a good girl, if you marry an accountant or a doctor you can live in relative luxury and serve God, serve at church and raise your babies!” 

I have heard men say they are not attracted to women because of their education or careers, and I believe them.  However, when such men decide to marry (if they do), more than attraction must be playing into it because they often marry women with similar levels of education.  Perhaps this is because they want their children to come from the same high IQ, well-educated stock.

So what should we be telling our daughters?  Even if we aren’t raising our daughters to be careerists, is ensuring that they have access to the best quality men worth the money and effort of sending them to college?  Does this trick even work anymore the way it did when I was entering college 25 years ago, given the fact that women now outnumber men on campus?  Would most college-educated men be willing to marry non-college educated women or do they only want women with a similar level of education?  Are society’s interests best served by leaving those university spots open for men or by admitting women in order to get high IQ couples together?

386 thoughts on “Should girls go to college to get their MRS degrees?

  1. Elspeth

    My 3 older girls are all attending college, but I don’t think the acquisition of the MRS degree is as common as it used to be. More later, perhaps.

    Also, I emailed you with a request.

    [ssm: I sent you the link you requested.]

  2. sally1137

    I would tell her (as I will tell my great niece graduating this year), get an education in STEM classes or at the very least, business. That way you can support yourself if necessary (widowhood, as my mom did). Stay away from jerks, and whatever you do, don’t get $100k in student loans. That’s a load that you’ll never escape.

  3. stg58/Animal Mother

    If you are going to college, go STEM. If not, attract men by being well read. That is where a real education exists. A sheepskin doesn’t impress me. If you have a degree, I will assume that at some point you will want to use it, and fight me on staying home with the kids.

    If you know the classics, Shakespeare, history, philosophy, political thought, the beginning of science (Kepler, Copernicus, Newton, etc) I will be more impressed and attracted to you than a degree in whatever from X university. If you have a degree from an Ivy league school I walk the other way. That tells me your brain is more rotted than the rest of them.

    In other words, if you can survive an average discussion at VP, you’ve got my vote.

  4. Ashley

    Sally, I definitely agree with everything you said.

    Additionally, it does seem like a lot of married couples meet in college, and I also know plenty of men who don’t date women who aren’t well educated (no matter how attractive they are). It all boils down to what these young girls are going to want when they get to that point and hope that they succeed in their quest for happiness, whatever that may be.

  5. TempestTcup

    I met my husband in college, but I didn’t go there for an MRS degree (happy accident!). I think that if I had a daughter, I would encourage her to be serious about both school & meeting an appropriate husband. It just has an intense concentration of kids the same age & you don’t really have to worry much about the other students being gang members or at high risk for being drug dealers or something else you wouldn’t want for her. Better to meet a husband in college than on the street.

  6. sunshinemary

    So, is everyone then encouraging their daughters to go to college? Do you intend for them to have careers, or is it because you want them to find husbands? I don’t intend to push having a career on our girls, and I don’t know if I want to spend that much money just so they can find a husband. Also, I’m not sure college is a good place to find a husband anymore, and with the lure of the carousel, I’m not sure it sets them up to be decent wives. But if men only want college-educated women, then we are in a bit of bind here. I’m not sure what the solution is.

  7. driversuz

    I agree with Sally1137. A woman needs, if not specific “career” skills, at least a solid foundation for a career in case she needs to support herself and her children (and possibly even her husband. S*** happens.) While a college education sure isn’t what it used to be, attending college to learn something practical, is extremely wise whenever possible. And it DOES put women “in the running” to find husbands with higher earning potential. And anyone at all who is lucky enough to have access to a free (or nearly free) education, would be an idiot to pass it up. By the same token, anyone who wastes a cheap or free education on a humanities-type degree is also an idiot.
    It is absolutely essential that a woman have a “skill,” and if she wants to marry she needs to go where the (highest status she can get) men are. So yes, girls should go to college, but those who want to be mothers need to make motherhood their first career. When they find their husbands, they can continue their education part-time throughout their child rearing years and be ready to launch their second careers when the children are older.

  8. Lori

    I think as long as they don’t go into debt to go to college, it is fine. Debt makes one a slave and is difficult to get out of. The high cost of education makes it rough, very rough. For a man to marry a woman with a load of school debt puts an unfair burden on the man. My daughter went to community college then the local university and gradutated without any debt.

    [ssm: Yes, and I think a girl with a mountain of debt should be a big red flag to a man who is considering marrying her.]

  9. driversuz

    “Also, I’m not sure college is a good place to find a husband anymore, and with the lure of the carousel, I’m not sure it sets them up to be decent wives.”
    Commuter colleges. No dorms, minimal “student life,” because the students tend to be older and already have “lives.” Go to school to get an education and a husband, not a 4-year party.

    [ssm: I agree that's the best course for a girl. But would a MC/UMC higher-IQ girl meet boys there of similar intellectual ability? Maybe.]

  10. MarkyMark

    I think men are marrying women of similar education because they’ve been told to want career women; it’s wrong to want a woman to stay at home, etc. Well, the best place to find a career chick is at college or university…

  11. Cautiously Pessimistic

    Okay, I’ll be your first counter-example. I’m a college grad that married a woman with a couple of college credits to her name (fluff classes like creative writing and fashion), but no degree.

    And since I have gone to college, know what went on there back in the early 90’s, and know that it’s gotten worse since, a college education would be a definite turn off to me. If I weren’t worried about the feminist indoctrination, I’d be worried about the carousel.

  12. CoffeeCrazed

    OT
    men are mothers too, dontcha know?

    Back on topic,
    My relative intelligence seems to have caused more than a rift or two in a couple of relationships I have had. I don’t want to have to modify how I present myself just to satisfy someone, so having someone equivalently educated is a good starting place. However, I would likely be just as happy with someone who wasn’t threatened by an education gap, who had the capability to engage, who appreciated what I bring to the table.

    Problem is, in this day and age, it is becoming more important for a man to have a woman capable of earning.

  13. sunshinemary

    You know, I wonder if a girl getting a university degree is a way that men fitness test women?

    Let’s remove Christian morality from the conversation for a moment. It makes sense from a male mating strategy point of view that a male would be willing to have sex with women that he doesn’t intend to invest it (commit to). From a genetic point of view, she’s not the best he can do, so he isn’t going to do much to ensure the survival of her offspring, but if any do survive, he’s “won” the genetic lottery. But when he’s looking to produce offspring in whom he intends to invest, he’s going to be looking for the highest quality (genetically-speaking) female he can find to reproduce with; IQ has historically (though not now) been associated with higher survivorship, so it makes sense that men will seek to reproduce with the highest IQ girl they can get. And what is (or at least, used to be) an easy way to tell if she’s higher IQ? A college degree.

  14. YouHaveMyPermission

    My brief thoughts:

    Recently I heard one of our younger daughters chanting…

    May seem trivial, but I would be very concerned. Things stick with children as they grow up.

    She had it all planned out; she’d grown up in poverty and wanted to escape from it, a sentiment I fully understood, having grown up in similar circumstances.

    Her poverty and hardship was that which built character. You don’t need to be rich to give the children opportunities to succeed. In fact, people with less probably have greater ambition and drive. Again, trials and character. I don’t mean you need to be poor either, but average is sufficient.

    girl who was already thinking in terms of matched furniture sets.

    If I knew this about a girl I was dating/courting, I would probably break it off.

    the reality that virtually no men with a nice education marry women with a HS diploma only.

    Not true for me at all. Education is not a factor at all.

    Perhaps this is because they want their children to come from the same high IQ, well-educated stock.

    Possibly why some people do it, but:

    1. Ridiculous.
    2. Elitist.
    3. Questionable that IQ is a good measure of Intelligence
    4. Questionable that IQ is inherited.
    5. Well-educated does not mean high IQ.
    6. Well-educated does not mean high intelligence.

    This just reminds me too much of the story of a woman cheating with other men, so her children will get “good genes”.

    Even if we aren’t raising our daughters to be careerists

    More difficult than you believe. Do not underestimate external/worldly influences.

    is ensuring that they have access to the best quality men

    What do you mean by “best quality” men? What is your criteria? From this post, I would gather: money, intelligence and status.

    If I had a daughter, my criteria would be very different. Things like being a strong Christian, and a hardworking man.

  15. Stg58/Animal Mother

    You can tell if a woman is smart after five minutes of conversation. A college degree is not required. Smarts or a college degree don’t help with the big questions, such as are you going to raise your own children, etc. My dad had a bachelor’s in English and a Master’s in Journalism from CCNY and Columbia University. My mom graduated from Thomas Jefferson HS. That worked out fine. My mom is tough and smart, and she never stepped foot in an institute of higher learning. Every woman I dated with a college degree was trouble, even the ones who swore they just wanted to have my babies.

  16. anonymous

    Girls go to college to get more knowledge,
    Boys go to Jupiter to get more stupider!

    Not sure I want any of my sons dating that….

    [ssm: I know, what a brat, right? Who raised these kids? :) But in all seriousness, it goes to show how pervasive that kind of influence is, and how it can seep in even when we think we are keeping it out.]

  17. YouHaveMyPermission

    You know, I wonder if a girl getting a university degree is a way that men fitness test women? …

    Though popular, too much evo psych mumble jumbo (i.e. rubbish).

    Do you believe in evolution?

    What is the difference between you and an animal (or are you an animal) ?

    [ssm: One does not need to believe that people evolved from non-human primates in order to understand that God created humans with the ability to adapt to their environment through differential survivorship.]

  18. Farm Boy

    Should girls go to college to get their MRS degree?

    I would probably be a happier man now if I lived in an era where they did.

    And the women would be happier also.

  19. driversuz

    ” But would a MC/UMC higher-IQ girl meet boys there of similar intellectual ability? Maybe.”
    Absolutely! The men who attend these schools are also there for the knowledge, not the party. Don’t fall into the trap of assuming that the people who attend most “residential” colleges are the least bit smarter, and don’t forget (what’s left of) the GI Bill – lots of current and former military in commuter schools these days.

  20. Saint Velvet

    I’m encouraging my daughters to go to college for the reasons driversuz mentioned. I think it’s crucial that a woman’s priority be matching the needs of her husband, including being prepared to contribute to or even support the family financially should it become necessary, as well as being interesting to him intellectually (yes, it happens). If only I could get away with guacamole and blowjobs, but alas, my husband likes to talk to me. Homeschooling is increasingly necessary to many families, as well, and college level education is helpful in facilitating what usually is an advanced (relatively) curriculum. It’s certainly not absolutely necessary, but it can make things easier.

    I can’t completely agree with the idea that a man never weighs the education or earning potential of a woman. I don’t think my husband would have taken me on a second date if I weren’t a good earner, particularly since we met and married relatively late. I was no fair maid. What I’d been up to in my early twenties wasn’t rocket surgery or anything but I wasn’t a single mommy carousel waste-oid either. I got good at my job and made a lot of money and had no debt. He liked and valued those things, still does.

    All that said, I think college presents an opportunity for early marriage (I don’t buy that education and marriage need be separate events on the timeline) assuming the young people involved are operating from a healthy home base. If you have a degree, I will assume that at some point you will want to use it, and fight me on staying home with the kids. Interesting. Most of my cohort has spent the last twenty years avoiding using theirs.

  21. alcestiseshtemoa

    To be honest, college as a whole is becoming a racket. It takes years (4 to 12 years, including both Bachelor’s to Master’s), can get one indebted for life (student loans are that terrifying and one can keep on paying them for 10-20 years), doesn’t reflect the workplace or even the real world. Something short (1-2 years) but good is a much better option.

    And don’t encourage women to go into STEM. Current US President Barack Hussein Obama is just doing that through affirmative action and quotas. I’d say in a STEM environment, it’s about 80% to maybe 90% male. Hope this doesn’t sound like a special snowflake scenario, but those women are different and exceptional (not average in various respects). Adding more women will just get more unqualified candidates and when women fail (see the badly managed Tech company HP, thanks to the female CEO Meg Whitman), it’s going to be blamed on the men, the patriarchy or something else. Never these women themselves.

    However, U of M is a fairly competitive school, with an acceptance rate of roughly 15%. This girl was one of that 15%, which means that another applicant, who may have intended to use that education for a serious career, didn’t get in.

    About 1/3 to maybe half of the women at elite USA universities become SAHMs for their kids (at least, until they are grown up). This accounts for much of the dreaded unequal wage-gap cries. That and maternity leave (an employer paying for an employee to take her time off and do little to nothing).

    These women don’t plan on becoming SAHMs and actively discourage this option openly, but when the push comes to the shove, they stop working and let their husbands work full-time outside of the home in a big MNC.

    As a result, these degrees sit largely unused and men who could have used them, are pushed out. This produces less efficiency and a good example of this trend would have been medical schools for example (notice how horrible health care is in the USA?).

    Does this trick even work anymore the way it did when I was entering college 25 years ago, given the fact that women now outnumber men on campus?

    No. It doesn’t. It worked for women who are now 40 to 60 years old, but below 40, it’s a mess. There’s already small cries (because the trend is small but it’s becoming more common) of “where the good men have gone!”. College-educated men in general seek college-educated women as wives and mates, but college men in general (due to the skewed sex ratio, which is now 60 F/40 M and getting worse) are in shorter supply, so for every 40 women who find 40 men, and vice-versa, about 20 women are left out. That creates soft polygamy, because women are hypergamous and will rather share than settle for something lower or whichever.

  22. Looking Glass

    Well, let’s start with the really nasty issue no one wants to bring up:

    Since only about 25% of the total population of women would be able to complete a 4-year degree before age 26, for the totality of the argument, the answer is “don’t SEND THEM OFF to college”. Most of them simply can’t handle it. Only about 15% of the total graduating class of a year in High School should be doing a 4-year college.

    If you have a decently capable daughter? Commuter college, not resident. She needs the ability to “get away” from the pressure of the social environment. And expectations of further Church attendance.

    If you have the rare exception of a near-genius? You can risk it, but you’re pretty much sending her to lose her faith, her marriageability and her sense of self. She’ll get an education, but all of the worst sides of it, as well. (Though in this stupidly rare situation, it’s not like the family couldn’t relocate, as she’d need the support anyway)

    There are a few Christian schools out there that take stuff seriously enough, it might be safe to send them off to, but that, itself, also takes a lot of work to suss out.

    I’ll work down the Guy’s point of view and some of the socialization problems with it, as well.

  23. alcestiseshtemoa

    That is, if all the 40 women will find the other 40 men attractive, but that’s just showing options and availability (the pool).

  24. Farm Boy

    see the badly managed Tech company HP, thanks to the female CEO Meg Whitman

    And before that, Carly the Hair Stylist.

  25. alcestiseshtemoa

    The “if something bad happens and she becomes a widow” excuse is valid, but it’s overused, because most women won’t become widows and aren’t widows. They either become divorcees, single mothers or something else.

  26. Einherjar

    I started dating my wife in high school and we went to different colleges and dated long-distance until we moved in together on graduation.

    She would be the first to tell you that her degree is useless and that college was a waste of her time and money.

    It wouldn’t have made much difference to me if she hadn’t gone to college, but I’m certain that my highly (over) educated parents would have freaked out. It’s already bad enough for them that she’s from a prole background while my family is upper middle-class.

    I’ll say this, though: if I hadn’t already met her in high school, it’s not that I would have turned up my nose at her (She’s cute, has good future time orientation, cooks, cleans), I just plain wouldn’t have met her.

    I’m 26 and only one out of all of my college and high school friends is married besides me. They almost all date only college-educated women because that’s what their social circle includes. The two more alpha of my unmarried friends date plenty of non-college educated women since they just plain get out more.

    Would I encourage my future daughters to go to college? That’s going to depend on a lot, since I expect a great deal to change about the American university system in the next 20 years. I have to say, though, college is a powerful signal of intelligence, conscientiousness, and future time orientation. Plus, if they can’t secure a quality husband before graduating, then they’ll need to support themselves (at least partially) until they can do so.

    Would we all be better off if this wasn’t so? Yes. It’s the costly signal to end all costly signals. Only a couple of my female friends from college or high school have non-bs jobs (and even they are in communications/marketing). But ‘is’ doesn’t align nearly so much with ‘ought’ as I might wish.

  27. Looking Glass

    I should probably point this out:

    There was a study out a few years ago. Of the Men entering Engineering Graduate Programs, 60%+ of them were virgins. And there’s a reason: the work to get into a good Engineering program is going to come at the time to invest in a relationship (they take energy, investment and time, after all).

    There are target rich environments of Men that will make plenty of money. (Though it should probably be pointed out that a Father that can come in and give a basic lesson on Game wouldn’t hurt either, as those poor guys will need it.)

  28. Farm Boy

    The “if something bad happens and she becomes a widow” excuse

    There is life insurance, and of course, the government.

  29. SC

    I think girls should go to GRAD SCHOOL to get an MRS degree. Because very few men are looking to get into a permanent relationship at age 19-22. However, a higher number men who are 23-26 are open to the idea of being in a relationship that will lead to marriage. So my advice for young girls would be this: graduate high school as soon as possible (I myself managed to graduate about a month after I turned 17). Go into university with as many AP credits as possible. Graduate university with a STEM degree as soon as possible (just in case you never find a husband). Go to grad school with a major in a STEM degree at a STEM school. Find husband. Live happily ever after :)

  30. seriouslypleasedropit

    This is an awesome topic; one I’ve been considering myself as my little sister prepares to graduate from HS.

    So, I’m a pretty smart guy. I got a perfect score on the SAT, got voted “Class Genius,”—the whole stereotypical smart kid thing.

    As you can imagine, I had zero game. Smart enough to do math, but apparently not smart enough to see what worked and what didn’t. I had zero romantic prospects in high school…

    …except. Every once in a while there was a smart girl I could actually have a conversation with.

    No, it never went anywhere—like I said, zero game—but I did come away with the idea that “I liked smart girls.”

    From what I can tell, women like to date up in terms of intelligence, or at least not down. This makes life harder for smart girls, because their dating pool has been shrunk to smart-or-really-smart guys. So they’ll be forced to make some sacrifices when choosing guys. Quarterback Joe may be more attractive, but once he opens his mouth she just can’t stand it, so she’ll date the hottest physics kid she can find instead.

    The physics kid, meanwhile, is ecstatic to be dating someone at all. What distinguishes this girl from all the others? She’s smart. “Oh,” he thinks. “I guess I like smart girls.”

    But this is not true. Despite his delusions of grandeur, he’s like every other guy. The most empty-headed of cheerleaders still turns him on, but he sour-grapes rationalizes that “they’re all dumb bitches” because they didn’t like him, when in fact it’s his lack of game that is the problem.

    What he really likes is girls that like him, and since the common thread in them is that they are all smart (because they’re the only ones who are effectively forced by their own intelligence to date him), he thinks it’s the smartness that he likes.

    Remember also that this guy does not have the greatest game. He still strikes out with sorostitutes. In the 70’s he might have been doing better because his major is a probably lucrative one (STEM, finance, econ), but here in the new millenium, college girls are focused on their career merit badge rather than marriage prospects, so he’s still passed over in favor of college alphas. So he still has the idea that, “Oh, guess I like smart girls.”

    Now, this does not sound very encouraging, and it’s not. I do have a ray of hope to offer though.

    My first real oneitis (of the ruin-your-life-for-years-and-propel-you-to-search-the-Internet-endlessly-and-eventually-discover-the-manosphere variety) was not a girl I met at college. I was an I’m-oh-so-smart UMC STEM major home from a prestigious out-of-state university for the summer for an appropriately prestigious internship, she was a small-town community college wannabe actress, half of whose backyard was a farm.

    As I look back, what ensnared me so hopelessly?

    —I’d be dishonest if I said she wasn’t hot. She was. Very. But since her I’ve dated comparable or prettier girls, and none had quite this impact on me.

    — What I think it was, was that she was so feminine. Acting was indeed her calling—she wore her heart on her sleeve, and would get completely caught up in her emotions. This was quite a ride for mild-mannered-studiously-calm Dropit.

    — I don’t know any other way to put it, but she had game. The first time I held her in my arms she clung on for dear life. That is a fantastic way to send a man’s ego (and something else) shooting straight up.

    — She was…instinctually trusting, I guess? Just as moderately more attractive guys better better results in their youth and their confidence increases in a virtuous cycle, I suspect pretty girls have better results when they trust people, making them more trusting in the future. As Free Northerner has stated, guys are crying out to be trusted.

    At this point I should shut up because I don’t want to be a fish giving fishing advice. And there is also the unavoidable truth that I wasn’t really a fish you’d want to catch back then (beta to the core), so maybe this anecdote is useless (although to counter that, I have since become much more attractive, and I’d still go for a comparable girl, education or no). But I think this is a discussion Stingray started with her piece on feminine wiles. I would love to see the ladies of the manosphere pick this topic up. I tried to shed a small portion of light on it with my piece on modesty.

    Anyway, that’s all I have for this morning, but I hope it helps.

  31. ar10308

    Of the married couple that I currently live with, he has a college degree (that’s where we met) and she has a cosmetology license (he is 5years older than her). Currently, she is going to college for Sign Language and Speech Therapy because she was bored of cutting hair and wanted to go other things. She commutes daily to school.
    It hasn’t changed the dynamic of their relationship based on what I can tell. But the only reason she is going is because she wants to go. She is paying for it mostly through working at a salon and cutting hair for friends on the side. They don’t have any intention of having children in the near future, but I still wonder if the money she is putting into her degree could not be better spent elsewhere for them.

  32. sunshinemary

    I mostly agree with what alcesti wrote.

    A question for the group: what should be done about unusually high IQ girls? We’ve been socialized to think that it’s a huge waste for them not to go to college, but I wonder. Why should they not be considered prime breeding stock (to be rather crude) rather than work horses? We’re out of the biblical marriage discussion at the moment, of course. But it is really best that high IQ girls don’t have children or have only one or two, and instead have careers? Are girls in general, even high IQ ones, really going to do well in the workplace anyway?

  33. Alethia

    My husbands two youngest sisters (20+ years younger than us) went to Christian colleges and both met good marriage-minded men. One is married and the other is getting married as soon as she graduates in a few weeks. Most of their college friends are getting married right after graduation, so I’m thinking Christian colleges have good odds as far as an MRS degree. I’ve told my daughters that Christian colleges are the only ones we will be looking at for them. There is a Christian college near us and a large number of the students attend our church; they also seem to marry young and start families soon after. And this is in Godforsaken New England, so I’m thinking Christian college is the way to go.

    [ssm: Could be. I've thought of this, too, but here are two flies in the ointment: first, Christian colleges tend to be expensive, and second, have you considered what I call the "Wheaton college" effect? I started noticing about five years ago a rash of books written by people who had lost their faith and either regained it or not, as the case may be. To a man (or woman), they were Wheaton grads. Wheaton may be the Harvard of Christian schools for more than one reason, it seems.]

  34. Farm Boy

    IQ has historically (though not now) been associated with higher survivorship, so it makes sense that men will seek to reproduce with the highest IQ girl they can get

    A women with good motherly qualities might be more beneficial. It appears that motherly instincts theses days are not positively correlated with education level

  35. Farm Boy

    Are girls in general, even high IQ ones, really going to do well in the workplace anyway?

    What high IQ scores?

    Almost all of the high IQ people in the world are guys.

    [ssm: One of our daughters has a full scale IQ over 140, so it's not an idle question to me, though I know it isn't the norm. Of our daughters, she has the highest IQ and is by far the most difficult to deal with. The rest fall in the 120s and are easier to manage.]

  36. alcestiseshtemoa

    I may be wrong, but I think the ideal work for women is working part-time and helping out their husbands, families and communities. Full-time is bad, but not working seems off too. Part-time seems more balanced (if that’s the right word).

  37. anonymous

    During my freshman orientation at the University of Michigan, I met a girl who told me she was there to get her MRS degree – to find a young man who would have a good education and high earning potential

    When I went off to college, I (and my parents) fully expected that school would be full of nubile, intelligent young women who were seeking Mrs. degrees. Indeed, as I have mentioned before, finding the right sort of woman (conservative) factored significantly in my choice of schools. Both my parents and I assumed, that’s how my lifescript would play out: I’d graduate with an engineering degree and a nice wife, tuitiion well spent.

    Alas, that expectation was a generation out of date by the time I arrived at college. But my parents couldn’t have known that, of course.

    I have heard men say they are not attracted to women because of their education or careers, and I believe them. However, when such men decide to marry (if they do), more than attraction must be playing into it because they often marry women with similar levels of education.

    To the limited extent this is true, it’s probably due to access — for those rare few who still pair off in school, or who are willing to brave the terrors of HR in order to date in the workplace. But if you’re in STEM, and you’re male, school and work aren’t exactly target rich environments.

    Before I finally married, my dear Mother endlessly urged me to go to professional conferences in order to meet women, and I patiently explained to her, over and over (to her unheeding ears), why this was a horrible idea: “Mom, most of the girls who got PhDs along with me, did so for entirely opposite reasons: I did it in order to AFFORD a stay-at-home wife, they did it to AVOID BEING a stay-at-home wife. I have NOTHING IN COMMON with my educational peers!!!!” (And besides, since I’m in a STEM field, most of my female colleagues are Asian, and Mom wanted all her grandchildren to be blue-eyed like her.)

    . Every woman I dated with a college degree was trouble, even the ones who swore they just wanted to have my babies.

    With the exception of my wife, there does seem to be an inverse correlation between education and niceness, that’s for sure. In fact, looking back over my single years, just now in response to this posting, I’m shocked to realize how FEW college grads I actually dated. (Til just now, typing this post, I never even THOUGHT about it! It just wasn’t on my mental radar).

    I preferred women that were SMART… but I didn’t give a flying f*** about education per se. And, to be honest, not that I was targeting them, but, thinking about the legions of women who rejected me… I couldn’t attract college grads despite my Phd, income, height, looks… my “equals”, at least the white ones, were holding out for someone far, far higher up the scale than me.

    Some of these women never married at all, and are now past 40 and never will.

    with the lure of the carousel, I’m not sure [college] sets them up to be decent wives

    Agreed. I’m pretty darned sure that it corrupts almost all boys that are sent there, too. Things have really gotten bad since I was in college.

  38. alcestiseshtemoa

    IQ and education isn’t as reflectively as previously. One can thank the equal opportunity = equal results charade for that factor. If a woman is high IQ, and she doesn’t want to marry, maybe she can be like Mother Theresa?

  39. Saint Velvet

    what should be done about unusually high IQ girls

    Specialization. That’s true for average intelligence potential, wives, too. It allows for more malleable professional schedules in fields where they’re actually needed. Nursing, for the average, project oriented research for the brainiacs, that sort of thing.

  40. alcestiseshtemoa

    Living like Mother Theresa beats living like Sex & The City by a long margin.

    [ssm: Agreed, and that works if the girl is Catholic and has a vocation. Not all do.]

  41. Looking Glass

    From the Male point of view, there’s a few things going on.

    1) Guys actually like to talk about more than the weather. Intelligent Men like having intelligent conversations. We’ve seen studies that marriages tend to be between 20 IQ points of each other, even at the top end, and that’s probably much of the reason. You want to be roughly on the same page. (Let’s not talk about how bad it is for guys at the super-end of the scale, though)

    2) Men are told, constantly, to treat Women the same as Men. That’s had an effect. Most “provider Beta” types are going to appreciate (even if they’ll lie about finding attractive) the personal discipline and necessary skill set to get into a top school. This is pretty much a socio-economic filter path. (In both directions)

    3) We’re told they’re better for Marriage, but it’s mostly that they’re the ones available to most intelligent Men.

    4) Educated Women are thought to give you less hell for “geeky” hobbies. A friend in college Married a girl that had written a 25k word fan-fiction for Mobile Suit Gundam Wing, for instance. (No joke, and I assume a few get the reference) There are also a higher collection of geeky girls available that might be interested in geekier guys.

    5) None of these points require a degree, but a degree that significant value just for the piece of paper, especially for Women. This is mostly has to do with female risk-adversion when it comes to work, but that’s a separate topic.

  42. Rotten

    An overachiever friend of mine in High school got into Yale, and got a significant scholarship to Yale too (20k a year is what i heard). Her parents had some wealth but Yale tuition even with a scholarship is very expensive. They balked at paying & wanted the girl to stay near her home and the girl ended up going to Miami Dade college which was free. Miami Dade college is a glorified community college that mostly exists to teach basic English to foreigners. Yale it is not.

    Long story short she got knocked up by a thug alpha who didn’t stick around and became a single mother at the age of 20.

    I can’t help but think that even if her character and her destiny were the same, then if she were to get knocked up by a thug alpha at Yale at least she would be getting $$$$ in child support money, and at least the thug alpha would have Yale worthy genetics.

    So fom this perspective, going to college for a Mrs degree makes some sense. There are negatives to this: You will incur tons of debt going to college making you almost a debt slave for your 20s, which is especially hard on women because the 20s are when a woman should find her man, not slave away for some banker. Also, at the very first introduction welcome to campus, women will be introduced to rape culture and indoctrinated with all the poisonous feminism from that point forward.

    I think the right choice for a daughter has to be made with her character in mind.

    [ssm: Yes. Your comment shows that this is not a straightforward issue. There are reasons why it might be beneficial for a girl to go to a good college even though she will end up being a housewife - to find a suitable mate, primarily, and also to get an education herself so that she can turn around and offer an intellectually enriched environment to their future children. But at what price? And is that price (in terms of both money and her possible loss of virtue) worth the sacrifice?]

  43. Miserman

    YouHaveMyPermission wrote: In fact, people with less probably have greater ambition and drive. Again, trials and character.

    From my experience, people who live in poverty develop a sort of pride about their poverty. They view anything past minimum-wage, paycheck-to-paycheck living as arrogant or extravagant. To them, higher education past high school is useless (with education as a whole viewed askance) and ambition toward living a life with less poverty is viewed almost as childish. It is a mindset that says work, earn, save your pennies and not waste time or money on things like education or luxuries.

    [ssm: I know what you mean. Still, I have to say, having been both poor and comfortable, well...poor kind of sucks. I have to say that it gave me skills I wouldn't have gotten otherwise, but I still don't think I want my kids to end up in real poverty. Does anyone?]

  44. anonymous

    PS. re:

    finding the right sort of woman (conservative) factored significantly in my choice of schools. Both my parents and I assumed, that’s how my lifescript would play out: I’d graduate with an engineering degree and a nice wife, tuitiion well spent.

    It came down to a state school — which was known to be full of liberals — versus a private university which had a conservative reputation (alas, as I discovered, undeserved). Going private, cost about $40,000 more (a hell of a lot in the 80s).

    Both schools are about equivalent in educational quality and job marketability… but…. my folks (with my full agreement) blew 40k on the private school tuition in hopes of getting me into a more conservative environment, solely to increase my chances of marrying a nice conservative girl.

    Ooops. Should’ve put that 40k in Microsoft stock instead.

  45. anonymous

    College has degenerated into a 4-year Greek-letter rumspringa for the upper middle class.

  46. Looking Glass

    I guess we could mention there is something like 80ish All-Women’s colleges still around. Though I’ve heard some horror stories about how bad those places can be.

  47. anonymous

    From my experience, people who live in poverty develop a sort of pride about their poverty. They view anything past minimum-wage, paycheck-to-paycheck living as arrogant or extravagant

    Which is why they stay poor. My parents did exactly the opposiite: they grew up in poverty, and worked like hell to get out of it.

  48. anonymous

    guess we could mention there is something like 80ish All-Women’s colleges still around. Though I’ve heard some horror stories about how bad those places can be.

    Lesbianism plus extreme leftism, for starters…

  49. sunshinemary

    Mom wanted all her grandchildren to be blue-eyed like her.

    All my girls have blue eyes. Just sayin’. :)

    But anon, you say that you would have been willing to date and marry a non-college educated woman, but you actually married a college-educated woman.

    If we encourage our daughters not to go to college, will they meet men who will satisfy their innate hypergamy? It’s a bad bet for a girl to be a lot smarter than her husband, I think, though maybe others will disagree with me. How are girls supposed to find guys who are smarter than they are if they don’t go to college? How can they screen for them? Girls are bad at this; they just want whoever makes them feel all tingly, as evidenced by Rotten’s story above.

  50. Farm Boy

    will they meet men who will satisfy their innate hypergamy?

    Perhaps they should tone down the hypergamy.

  51. anonymous

    All my girls have blue eyes. Just sayin’.

    All my boys do too…

    But anon, you say that you would have been willing to date and marry a non-college educated woman, but you actually married a college-educated woman.

    Not just “willing to” date, I actually DID date MOSTLY non-college women. The fact that my eventual wife turned out to be college educated, was just a fluke. It was absolutely not a search parameter. It just never entered my mind.

    In fact, it was only while responding to this thread, that i mentally did an inventory of the girls I dated in the last 4 years of singleness (before which, I’d had a dateless spell lasting many years), and realized that, almost none had gone to college, and there were even a few for whom I can truly say, “I don’t even know if she went to college or not — it never came up!” It was THAT unimportant.

    If we encourage our daughters not to go to college, will they meet men who will satisfy their innate hypergamy?

    Part of the problem is that at college they DO meet men who satisfy their innate hypergamy… for a half an hour or so.

    It’s a bad bet for a girl to be a lot smarter than her

  52. Looking Glass

    @SunshineMary:

    Truthfully, unless the husband is sub-80 IQ, I could make a structured argument that no Woman will actually be “smarter”, she’ll just have a few mental skills she’s better at. That issue of “Future Time Orientation” looms big on the topic, and why IQ isn’t exactly a great measure (it’s just one we have available).

    The issue is the Man’s Frame, and a woman with a decent grasp of logic will take down most “normal” guys and break their frame. (It doesn’t help that most women with a decent head on their shoulders… become bitches with it, looking for someone to keep them in check.) So the worry with a Mental Mismatch is that she’s always going to use it to Fitness Test, as she’ll just have skills he can’t break by normal means.

    [ssm: Yes, but that's a serious issue. If she can throw down tests he can't pass, it's going to be rough going. Unless of course we train girls to restrain themselves. And even then...]

  53. Doc

    Ah yes… I remember the women going for their MRS degree… They were always looking for the pre-meds and pre-laws, or better yet hanging out at the law-school or med-school to try to get their hooks into a guy that was farther along in their degree.. It was *very* common, and still is – although that doesn’t preclude them from a night in the hay with a guy they just met. Many of them will play the guy they plan on landing by pretending to be the “chaste little thing”, while banging everything with a d*ck. They tend to be quite forward about this – especially if they are going to come see you to work the randiness out after being on a date with their sucker…. I actually recommend these types of women, as they are a lot of fun – if you aren’t the one they are targeting since they want to explore all that sex has to offer while their target is in classes and working hard, so are open to almost anything you want to do to them, as long as you can keep your mouth shut.

    Yes… I learned a lot about women in college and many of the ones going for their MRS degrees were some of the biggest sluts around…

  54. Farm Boy

    It’s a bad bet for a girl to be a lot smarter than her husband, I think

    It can be done. My sister does it well, primarily because she absorbed my Mom’s old time values (e.g. hypergamy on a leash)

    Chicks should stop upping the ante. Too many guys are folding. And they are not bluffing either.

  55. sunshinemary

    One of the flaws in the way that assortive mating is presented is that it only takes into account sexual attraction. I agree that men prefer pretty over not pretty, but what I observe is that when it comes time to marry, men seem to prefer women who are around their intellectual range.

    Women also want this, preferably with the man being a little higher but at least not too much lower.

    Men don’t need for girls to go to college in order for them to find smart girls. They can tell just by talking to her and can screen accordingly.

    Girls are bad at this. They will get pregnant by stupid thugs sometimes. They will choose mates who make them tingle but who wouldn’t be good spouses. So going to college might actually be a good idea for girls because it will artificially create a pool of men who are in their intellectual range.

    I’m only discussing the IQ set of 100+ of course. The under 100 set have different challenges and should have different priorities. The idea that everyone should go to college regardless of IQ is a crock of crap; they are a major drain on our country’s economy, but every single mom I know is “going to school”. They rarely ever graduate or get real jobs of course; they just screw around on other people’s money.

  56. anonymous

    So going to college might actually be a good idea for girls because it will artificially create a pool of men who are in their intellectual range.

    Only if it has no sports teams or fraternities. Ideally there should be…
    (a) equal numbers of men and women admitted,
    (b) the men are only allowed to major in STEM, and
    (c) the women are only allowed to major in home-ec.

    [ssm: Many years ago, I used to tutor a group of very strict Islamic women from Saudi Arabia in English language lessons in one of their homes in the evening. We got to talking about college, and I was really surprised when most of them told me they had gone to college. I asked them what they had majored in and they didn't even understand the question; there was only one thing for girls to major in...Islamic Studies for Girls. That's it. They learned more about their religion and how to be wives and mothers. That was college for them. In other words, it was purely a status symbol and was used as a way for their husbands' families to filter for higher IQ and higher class young women for their sons to marry.]

  57. Looking Glass

    If we’re talking about the truly high IQ girls, we probably need to bring up China. Remember, there are 3 Sexes in China:

    Men, Women and Women with PhDs. (This isn’t even a Manosphere joke, either)

    The simple truth is the high IQ girl’s hypergamy can’t be sated by most societies. Even at the 140 IQ range, she’s out numbered by Men at 10 to 1. Which means she’s going to have super high intelligence filter, but she’ll also require the normal Alpha traits, as well. And you know the few guys that can cover that? Yeah, they wouldn’t want to marry her, either.

    But they have a different issue from pretty much everyone else. They have to learn to keep their hypergamy, on specific things, in massive check. Though they *should* have the ability to do that. The problem is normally they’re smarter than their parents, which causes its own issue.

  58. Frank

    Find a husband first, then go to college (maybe), and only if the debt is minimal or nonexistent.

    Consider that this is one of the things I’m mindful of when choosing a spouse. I’m debt-free and the liberation of being the head (and not the tail, and a lender of many nations, but not a borrower thereof) is incredible. Simply being debt-free puts you ahead of more than half the country in terms of collective wealth.

    If we had kids and I wanted my wife to stay home, guess who would be responsible for her $80,000 education bill? I’ll give you a hint: not her.

    If we don’t have kids and both worked, then if there’s a mutual agreement where she’s responsible for her debt and I’m responsible for mine, maybe, but you can see why this is not conducive to raising a family if both the husband and wife have massive education loans BEFORE THEY EVEN GET STARTED WITH LIFE.

    I believe that’s why the Lord reached down and completely derailed me from going to law school. The debt I’d have from that now would have made it impossible for me to practice law autonomously.

    [ssm: So you would be willing to marry a woman with only a HS diploma?]

  59. Looking Glass

    It makes the Hamster a lot harder to use, without a lot of practice. But if left untreated, gangrene sets in and it’s just a mess, possibly untreatable.

    The main thing with highly intelligent women is that you can force them to use logic. And they’ll feel shame at an open rationalization, as they can see the logical error. So, if you’re used to dealing with them, it’s much, much easier to shame them.

  60. sunshinemary

    How does IQ affect the hamster?

    That’s an interesting question. I would think it has no effect on it. Do you ever talk to lower class or lower IQ women? I spent most of my pre-children career dealing with them because I had all their kids on my special ed caseload when I worked in a poor school district. They’ve got just as many rationalization, trust me. Nothing is ever their fault. They couldn’t make it to their kids IEP meetings ’cause deh baby daddy dint givum no diaper money…it was always something. Hamsters are no respecter of race, class, IQ, or educational level as far as I can tell.

  61. Cail Corishev

    If more women came home from college with a good husband, that would be a better result than the things many do bring home from college these days. But there are probably better places to accomplish that.

    A high IQ will help you succeed in college (assuming you want to), but it doesn’t mean college is a good place for you. If your smarts are centered in a particular area, and you are sure you want to pursue a career in that field, then by all means go to college and specialize in it. But if your IQ is fairly across-the-board, modern college will actually limit the range of things you are able to study. If you don’t need the degree for what you’re going to do with your life, there’s no real reason to spend a few years putting up with PC bureaucracy, taking the classes they think you should take, learning to shotgun beers, and piling up debt.

    A smart woman who wants to be a wife and mother does need to learn many things — but most of them aren’t taught in college. There’s no course plan out there that even comes close to covering all the skills and knowledge that she would find useful. This is the same argument that comes up when people claim you need a college education to homeschool. If your precocious 4-year-old takes an interest in insects, do you need to have a minor in entomology to help him learn about them? Do you need to have a certificate in kitchen management to teach your 8-year-old to make brownies? The number of things your kids will take an interest in or have a problem with is far too large to prepare for in advance. Today more than ever, thanks to the Internet, you can learn what you need as you go.

    I went to college because I thought that’s what you did if you were the valedictorian — you went to college. And if math was your best subject, you went into engineering. It took me a semester and all my savings (fortunately I didn’t take on any debt) to find out how wrong that was. I try to encourage everyone I know to send their kids (if they’re going at all) to community college for two years, then go on to a 4-year college if they’ve determined that’s the right course for them. Had I done that, it would have saved me a lot of money and several years of aimless living.

  62. Cail Corishev

    How does IQ affect the hamster?

    If you have a high IQ, so does your hamster. Judging by myself (men have hamsters too), a high IQ means your hamster will be that much better at talking you into things — and you’ll be very good at coming up with believable rationales for others too.

    A favorite quote of mine is from Richard Hoste: “A high IQ person can accept silly ideologies that your average Joe can’t even understand.” I’d say that applies to hamsters as well.

  63. anonymous

    Okay, I just did a mental inventory going all the way back to my teens…

    Of all the girls post highschool, that I ever got to a 3rd date with (a marker for real interest), exactly 2 had BS/BA college degrees, and a 3rd was working on one while we were dating. Some had taken a few courses at community colleges, usually after being in the workforce for a while, but only 3 had actually “gone away to college” and gotten or were in the process of getting actual bachelor’s degrees or above.

    Most college women wouldn’t give me the time of day. I’d have had better luck with them if I just rolled up on a Harley.

  64. Farm Boy

    Hamsters are no respecter of race, class, IQ, or educational level as far as I can tell.

    It is good to know that they are not racist.

  65. Feminist Hater

    If you have to go to college to find a mate, you’re doing it wrong.

    Women do this solely because they want access to higher standing men than what they have in their own communities. It ties in perfectly with feminism, which is just there so that women have access to higher tiers than they normally would have. Glad to see feminism is alive and well…

    Send them to college but don’t complain when they can’t find a decent man down the line. College was meant for education, research and higher studies. It was never meant for mating practice or this stupid idea of ‘shit testing’ blah blah bullcrap. If you’re worried about their IQ, get a freaking test done. Universities are currently a con. How many times do we need to warn you?!

    And, as a FYI, you will not be able to help her choose a suitable husband by letting her go to university, the few years she spends there will tell her that she can get any man she wants. Then you can watch as her fertile years fade and there’s nothing you can do about it but watch in horror.

    Toodles!

    [ssm: Just as an aside, we don't currently plan to send our daughters to university, except for maybe the eldest because I'm not sure that, despite being very pretty, she would be a suitable wife for anyone because she is so strong-willed.]

  66. deti

    There are a number of things going on here, I think, and as usual it’s almost all cultural in nature and origin.

    It used to be that girls were brought up and prepared to become wives and mothers, because their fathers well knew this was what their little darlings would want eventually, even if they didn’t know that now. So the ones who showed some academic promise might have gone to the university or the teachers’ college. When they married the BF they met at university (usually an engineer/aspiring academic/physician/lawyer/banker), they’d quit their jobs and put that academic knowledge to use instructing their own children.

    Yes, the experienced indulged these young womens’ hypergamy because they were exposed to higher status men than they were accustomed to. But they still were trained that their ability to pull down and hold a higher status man would not last forever and they had a limited amount of time to lock in a husband.

    Now, going away to college is a rumspringa. She goes away to college specifically to get out from under the watchful eyes of mom and dad and older brothers. Her hypergamy is indulged to the max. Starting at about age 14, she’s been trained to have very, very high expectations of men, especially their sexiness and attractiveness. At college she’ll be exposed to some very sexy, very attractive, very high status men. Those men will have the pick of the girls and generally will bang their way through all the willing ones. College now will only heighten her expectations of what she will want from a possible husband. To her, unless she gets some training in how to tamp down her hypergamy, only the very top men will merit any consideration. The thing is that those men don’t have any incentive to marry; and unless she is a hard 9 or 10, she has no chance of locking down any of those men for marriage.

    She’s also being trained to compete with men on an educational, academic and professional level. So unless a man is far, far above her in status or achievement or accomplishment or looks, she will look down on him. To her, most men are not dates or possible husbands, or even men. Instead they are adversaries and competitors for grades, opportunities and jobs.

    A third thing going on is diverging career paths for men and women. A lot of women are of course in college with the specific aim of finishing a degree and getting gainful employment. It goes without saying the men are as well. (Whatever pressure is on women to get educated and employed, there is orders of magnitude more pressure on men to do the same, because most men are told they have no chance of getting a woman without employment.) So an average 20 or 21 year old college junior planning on getting out of college in 1 or 2 years really has no idea where he wil be living or working. Most women are in the same position. What’s more, both men and women are under cultural pressure not to push each other into compromises on employment options or relationships at that point in the game. The fact of the matter is, many times the relationship goals are at odds with each party’s employment and/or further education goals. This is particularly difficult when both men and women are being told and trained that everything in their relationship and possible future marriage should be and has to be “equal”, and they’re being trained for “egalitarian” marriages (which per deti’s Second Law, means she, not he, will be the dominant partner.)

    Hard decisions have to be made; and something’s got to give: Either the relationship will or one person’s future objectives will. A lot of women are just not going to follow a 23 year old guy to a remote outpost and start living a married life together where she doesn’t know anyone and will have a hard time finding a job using her degree. A lot of men won’t follow a woman either. Most of the time, the relationship is considered less important, and they either break up reluctantly or delay the inevitable through a long distance relationship. It is about culture and priorities at that point, really.

    At this point, sending a young woman to college specifically to meet a husband will be definitely countercultural. She’ll have to be there secondarily to look for a husband and make that very clear to any man dating her. She’ll need to be looking to the older men, around 21-23. Or, she’ll need to get with a good man her age or a year or two older, and tie herself to him. She’ll need to make it very clear to him that she’s in this with him for good no matter what happens or where they end up living.

  67. Farm Boy

    high IQ means your hamster will be that much better at talking you into things — and you’ll be very good at coming up with believable rationales for others too.

    So that explains liberals; who have a incredible ability to ignore human nature.

    With respect to the hamster, we have one “decreased abilities”, one “increased abilities”, and one neutral.

  68. sunshinemary

    LG:

    The problem is normally they’re smarter than their parents, which causes its own issue.

    Trust me, I know about those issues.

    Cail:

    If you have a high IQ, so does your hamster. Judging by myself (men have hamsters too), a high IQ means your hamster will be that much better at talking you into things — and you’ll be very good at coming up with believable rationales for others too.

    Yes. I think that’s right. In fact, when we had our one high-IQ child tested, the reason that we did so was because we literally could not find any form of discipline that worked with her. The bad news we received from the psychologist was that high IQ children are extremely difficult to discipline because they can always formulate an elaborate rationalization to justify their behavior and they frame it in such a logical way that you can’t figure out how to argue against it. It’s really kind of a nightmare for a parent. Be sure to feel some gratitude for what your parents probably went through in raising you!

  69. anonymous

    How does IQ affect the hamster

    For women, not at all. The smartest women I ever knew, made the same dumb romantic mistakes as any others. I even had the termerity to ask one, “How is it that you girls can be so smart in the science lab, and yet out in your personal lives, you don’t use your intelligence?”

    Her answer was, in effect, that women were perfectly CAPABLE of logic, but — ” We just don’t LIKE it!” They’re logical at work because they have to be — but when they were off duty, they shed logic the way they took off their labcoats and safety googles, and navigated their personal lives with the same defective emotional compass as any other woman.

    By contrast, for men, the smarter a man is on the job, the smarter he is off duty, too. Unless he’s got a leftitst ideology warping his thought patterns.

    [ssm: Maybe I'm wrong, but I think what you observed about intelligent women is due to hypergamy. It's really the driving force in women when they are not trained to keep it leashed. I'm sure I was ruled by it in college, as most girls are/were.]

  70. Looking Glass

    @Cail:

    A lot of the complaints about needing a Degree, especially by women, is that their degrees are pretty worthless, in the main, so they need some way to project usefulness on it.

    @Sunshine Mary:

    I’d marry a good one right out of High School. Why wouldn’t a guy? Good women are hard to find.

  71. anonymous

    Of all the girls post highschool, that I ever got to a 3rd date with (a marker for real interest), exactly 2 had BS/BA college degrees…….

    And the 3rd girl, whose degree was in progres… as I now recall more clearly… we hung out a bit. but when it came to dating, we never got to date three.

    So…. TWO degree chicks. In all my dating years.

  72. Looking Glass

    @SSM:

    Disciplining a highly intelligent child? I think your psychologist kind of failed at the basic part, it’s not very hard, it just takes consistency:

    1) Make a very specific Order. It should be clear to the child.
    2) Enforce Order consistently.
    3) Enforce Order with Force, as that’s what they’ll respond to.

    The child is super smart, but they’re a child until they make about 13. Regardless of how bright they are. The issue with the super smart kid is that they’ll bring up any deviation from the established Order. So they’ll hold you to it, so you have to pick the boundaries and stick with them.

    Further, they can be easily negotiated with. If you say you’re going to be doing something for 1 hour, expect them to pipe up at 1h & 1s. :) They’ll hold you to the precision of your words. But odds are there’s a little more force necessary with them than most children, as they’re likely to have a lot of Will, as well.

    Obviously, I know this because I come from such a family and I was a little ball of Will & Utter Destruction to Walls. (Me and Walls don’t get along, I’m not sure why)

    [ssm: Ah, I could tell by your words that you are very familiar with what I'm talking about. Yes about the enforce with force thing. We were firmly committed to the non-spanking ideology until we had her. I was sure we could just reason with our children and make them behave that way. It didn't work with her at all because she always had a detailed argument about why she shouldn't have to do whatever we were telling her to do. And yes about them remembering and exploiting the smallest deviation from The Way It Always Is. Also, they will remember something you said four years ago and use it to defy you if they can. It's easier to discipline her now, though; I just take away her iPod Touch and listen to her howl like a banshee.]

  73. sunshinemary

    Deti, you made some good points about how girls used to be trained to find their husbands in college but no longer are. However, the same is sort of true for men. If I recall, you’ve mentioned a serious girlfriend from college who wanted to get married but you were not willing because you wanted to finish graduate school and get settled into a career, which is generally what young men are taught to do now. However, it used to be that men were not necessarily told to avoid marriage before (or during) university, either. My grandfather went to U of M after he got back from World War II, with my grandmother in tow. They had to put up lots of prefab housing for all the married GIs’ wives and children. It wasn’t seen as problematic for a man to be married and a student then the way it is now. I think excessive materialism and self-centeredness on both sexes’ parts is to blame.

  74. Cail Corishev

    ssm: So you would be willing to marry a woman with only a HS diploma?

    When I’m with a woman, I like to talk to her sometimes, so it’s probably good to have some commonality in your fields of knowledge. Both having degrees won’t guarantee that nowadays — a STEM graduate man and a woman with a B.A. in Gender Studies aren’t going to have much in common just because they both graduated from college. The guy would probably be much happier with a woman who got a nursing certificate after high school to make ends meet until she could start a family, and who will have no urge to get into degree-measuring competitions with him.

    My IQ is in the neighborhood of 160, and I’d gladly marry a woman at 100 if she were feminine, submissive, devoted to her faith, and all the other good stuff we talk about here. My ideal would probably be in the 120-130 range — smarter than the average she-bear, but no need for her to compete with me. But I’ve been with women who were smart enough to keep up with me most of the time, but weren’t feminine or submissive, and it’s not worth it. On the other hand, I’ve been with average-IQ women who made me very happy (for a while, at least). Now that I know better, I’d take average IQ combined with femininity and virtue over high IQ without those things any day.

    And that’s not because I don’t think IQ exists or matters or any of the other mainstream tropes. It does exist and matters a lot. But other things matter even more when you’re talking about suitability for marriage.

  75. Frank

    I married young myself and see a great value in your advice. But I would like to discuss with you the reality that virtually no men with a nice education marry women with a HS diploma only.

    Horse poopie. These males are probably betas unaware of the consequences of hypergamy.

    Once when I was young and stupid (as opposed to now where I am old and slightly less stupid) I thought education didn’t matter, and in fact the more educated she was, the more likely I could have intelligent discussions with her. I stopped at the undergraduate level, but felt in my idealistic mind that pursuing after women with similar or more advanced educations would be, well, ideal. That mindset was shot down very quickly, as virtually no woman working towards a graduate/Phd level wanted to give me the time of day. I realized, (way back when before I learned about the concept of hypergamy) that pursuing women with more advanced degrees was a waste of time. Since then I consider any woman who only has a high school diploma to be more of a major plus than a negative. For example, a nanny I ran across in her mid twenties who despite being accepted to a good school, decided against college for the time being because of the debt load it would have brought.

  76. deti

    @ SSM:

    “Deti, you made some good points about how girls used to be trained to find their husbands in college but no longer are. However, the same is sort of true for men. *** I think excessive materialism and self-centeredness on both sexes’ parts is to blame.”

    Yes, I think materialism and self-centeredness by men is to blame. But I also think some of it is how college men are (or were) socialized to be beta providers. Most men just aren’t very attractive and aren’t high on the list of alpha traits like confidence, dominance, poise and status. The only way most men have any shot at any of those things is through academic achievement and earning power. So I think that is some of what my situation was and a lot of what we’re seeing among college educated men. The rest of my situation was that my then GF didn’t really want to follow me where I was going to go to school. She simply wanted the status of being married, rather than truly wanting to be married to me.

  77. tbc

    Hmm… I would agree that sexual attraction is absolutely not correlated with education or IQ. That is quite different than choosing a mate and I would say for education and intelligence factored in a great deal. Of course there are plenty of college students who are not at all intelligent, so there is no one to one correlation on that at all. And my wife has a doctorate in her field, which is admittedly, not the toughest field, but she’s pretty smart

    Before I married I dated women who were college educated mostly because that is who I was around, though I did date a couple non-college educated girls.

    As for if I would encourage my daughters (I don’t have any — just 2 young boys) to go to college — well I would say it depends a lot on who they are, but probably yes I would. For one reason, college educated couples tend to divorce less. But more importantly, given the realities of the world, she would likely need it in the event she didn’t marry. There are also some intangible benefits (and I don’t mean the carousel) that come with college education — that is if it is really education.

  78. Ton

    Being a father and all, I told my girl something to the effect of…

    Don’t be a whore
    Don’t be a bitch
    add value to his life
    remain pretty, inside and out

    She is now engaged to a young captain who is finishing up the SF officer course. Couldn’t be happier myself.

    I told my son I’d break bones if he ever marries.

    I don’t know how things work regarding intelligence. I am a dumb ass grunt, with a ged. I’ve dated a couple of doctor chicks, a couple of gals making 100k plus in the business world, two research scientists. All smart girls, all said schooling and intelligence were important and yet they dated me. Like black tie business affairs kind of dating and not random hook up dating. I reckon, women date the men who ask, men date the women who say yes to the asking.

    As for women and jobs/ degrees; I date a lot of nurses. I don’t target nurses, but it seems they like what I have to offer. Not sure why that is but I would guess 50% or more of the women I date are in the medical field of some sorts. Convenient that, but how much of folks dating say college grads is about stuff other then the degree?

  79. SC

    sunshinemary, In response to what you and other people have commented on regarding the usefulness of university and high IQ womens’ marriage prospects: I think that universal university and grad school should only apply to those who are upper middle class or better and have a family income of 100K+. However, since that is my social milieu, and practically everybody in my personal life meets the previously mentioned criteria, I mostly think in terms of what is best for young men and women of that social class and income bracket. So, here are my two cents on what young men and women should do, given that they come from a high income/education/social class/IQ background. (to be completely honest I don’t care about the life outcomes of proles…it seems they have too much stacked against them anyways)

    1. Young women should graduate high school as soon as possible and go to a university with more men than women. They should go into university with as many AP credits as possible, and graduate as soon as possible. They should then go to a grad school with more men than women. This will result in the young woman being 20-23 and looking for men in a pool where all the men are age 23-26, IQ 120-140, largely upper middle class, highly educated, with good earning potential. Also, since the male IQ bell curve has a larger standard deviation than the female IQ bell curve, high IQ girls are in luck. I recommend to people of both genders not to date up or down in IQ, but to date across. That is, both men and women should try to find someone that matches their own IQ. The people I am related to, socialise with, work with, and was educated with are largely IQ 125+. I believe that within the IQ 125+ part of society, men outnumber women so high IQ young women are going to find that although intelligent men are rare on an absolute level, there is also very little credible female competition for highly intelligent men since women are more likely than men to be of middling IQ.

    2. Young men should, after graduating high school, go to university but take their time graduating. Men who are too young shouldn’t be trying to settle down anyways so it doesn’t matter how long it takes them to get their bachelor’s degree. They should then go to grad school and also take their time when it comes to finishing the master’s degree. However, one aspect is CRUCIAL for young men: GET A STEM DEGREE!!! A STEM degree is the only guarantee that a degree will be actually useful in the real world. When a man decides he wants to settle down, he should choose a woman who is: in his own IQ bracket, university educated, upper middle class, from a nuclear family, and non-slutty. The reason why university education is important is because it is a class and IQ marker. These days so many people go to university that you would be hard-pressed to find a girl with a triple-digit IQ who has no university education. Upper middle class matters because people mostly get along with people of their own social class. Also, parenting methods vary widely between social classes. I have heard that prole women don’t often read to their children, and are less likely to take them to museums, art galleries, overseas cultural trips, etc. Also prole women don’t push their children hard in school…apparently they are more okay with their children doing badly in highschool, not applying to university, or even dropping out.

    If you are a prole man or woman, then none of this applies to you.

  80. UnicornHunter

    I heard that exact chant in elementary school nearly 40 years ago. I wouldn’t sweat it.

    [ssm: The more things change, the more they stay the same...]

  81. Leap of a Beta

    Heres the views of a 27 year old male.

    Women should go to college, but do so either to get a STEM degree (if part of the very, very few women whose talents lie in that direction) or chose an education in a traditionally feminine field that requires a low investment of time and money to get your foot in the door. Elementary (or pre-school) teaching, entry-level nurses, care givers, etc. Fields that pay decent money, wont force her to develop masculine traits, and help develop skills that transfer directly towards supporting a family.

    Those are easily the women I take most seriously as long term potential right from the start.

    The kicker is that she should find a cheap school and living situation RIGHT NEXT TO a high prestige school, then make herself available to the men there. Attending the church on campus. Finding school clubs that are open to non students (for instance, I sometimes go to DePauls swing dance club here in Chicago to be college age women). Go to parks nearby. Study in coffee shops on campus.

    Make herself available to high IQ men with good potential, have the skills and education to be attractive, and minimize the cons.

  82. Cail Corishev

    In fact, when we had our one high-IQ child tested, the reason that we did so was because we literally could not find any form of discipline that worked with her. The bad news we received from the psychologist was that high IQ children are extremely difficult to discipline because they can always formulate an elaborate rationalization to justify their behavior and they frame it in such a logical way that you can’t figure out how to argue against it.

    Hoo boy, I could write about this all day, but I’ll try to be brief. My mom says the one thing you never wanted to do with me was tell me I wasn’t old enough to do/understand something. She was talking about things like calculating the circumference of a circle, which I asked how to do at about age 6. But it carried over into everything else, and there was almost no trouble I couldn’t talk my way out of. (Fortunately, I was a fairly quiet kid, so my idea of trouble was things like ordering books without permission.) It didn’t help that the advice to the parents of geniuses at the time was all very hands-off, let-them-find-their-way stuff. As a result, I still struggle to have any self-discipline, and any time I’m in a difficult situation — say I forgot to do something I promised someone — my first impulse is to toss out a lie I know they’d believe, because that’s so easy. Honesty and taking responsibility are hard, and have to be taught.

    Looking Glass is on the right track, I think: strictly-enforced, consistent boundaries, with freedom to use your smarts within them. The opposite of the way parents were taught in the 1970s, in other words. He’s exactly right about smart kids demanding (and responding to) precision in discipline and high expectations. I don’t know if that kind of upbringing would have made me a self-disciplined person today, but it couldn’t have done worse.

    I think that, because smart kids are basically learning machines who will sit and observe and teach themselves everything they’re interested in, there’s a tendency to assume they’ll teach themselves virtues like honesty and discipline too. It doesn’t work that way. Being smart may help you understand those things better or at an earlier age, but it doesn’t make you automatically want them. They have to be enforced until they become habits.

    [ssm: Oh, thank you for that last paragraph. That is really helpful. Yes. This particular child asks for and receives math curricula for gifts. We catch her doing math problems under the blankets with a flashlight. Her desire to learn what she wants to know is astounding. Her ability to exhibit virtuous behavior is no better and is perhaps sometimes worse than any other child, despite the fact that she understands what is right and knows what she is supposed to do. She's certainly the least virtuous of our children. When she was much younger, like around 4-5 years old, I learned to check her pockets before leaving stores; she knew stealing was wrong, but that didn't stop her from filling her naughty little pockets with everything she wanted. I finally stopped explaining it to her and just spanked her every time I caught her stealing anything, though I hated to do it.]

  83. Ton

    I have a Harley, scars, tattoos etc, they are not magic dating pills. Much of the deal with women and bikes is of the dance monkey dance give me a ride because I am cute variety

  84. sunshinemary

    @ SC
    You’ve pretty well summed it up. It was, of course, a dreadfully politically incorrect comment. We aren’t supposed to acknowledge that there are any differences between IQ and social class groups, especially in terms of life goals and mating.

    Read Dalrock’s essay Whistling Through the Graveyard, which addresses the idea that college education is what causes a lower divorce rate (recall that college grads have far lower divorce rates than non-college educated people do). He examines the data and quotes a study that found this:

    Holding some critical other things equal–IQ, socioeconomic status, age, and date of marriage–the divorce rate for the high school graduates in the first five years of marriage was lower than for college graduates.

    So it would seem IQ and not a college degree per se is what helps hold marriages together.

  85. Frank

    ssm: So you would be willing to marry a woman with only a HS diploma?

    Absolutely. Education is no longer a good indicator of how much intelligence and wisdom a woman carries. Now it’s all about brainwashing the masses into becoming liberals while bankrupting them at the same time.

  86. tbc

    Also, parenting methods vary widely between social classes. I have heard that prole women don’t often read to their children, and are less likely to take them to museums, art galleries, overseas cultural trips, etc. Also prole women don’t push their children hard in school…apparently they are more okay with their children doing badly in highschool, not applying to university, or even dropping out.

    Funny that since my mother was definitely a ‘prole’ — not college educated, married her high school boyfriend after her knocked her up… the whole nine yards. Yet she taught me to read at 3 years old, introduced me to art & architecture, and all the trappings of ‘culture’ via books and television, and basically made me go to university. All of us graduated highschool — that was a non-negotiable. As you say, there are exceptions out there. but you can’t make a rule from exceptions.

    Even now I don’t live a UMC life because of my profession, even though we have UMC cultural cues.

    [ssm: I understand completely. Both my parents were very intelligent but got caught up in the mayhem of the late sixties/early seventies and both were highschool drop-outs (though they later got GEDs) and had me while they were still in their teens. We lived in poverty, but there was always music and books and conversation, so I totally get where you are coming from here. As you say, we are the exception to the rule, and there are others like us, but in general the rule holds, wouldn't you say?]

  87. Cail Corishev

    As for if I would encourage my daughters (I don’t have any — just 2 young boys) to go to college — well I would say it depends a lot on who they are, but probably yes I would. For one reason, college educated couples tend to divorce less.

    I don’t want to pick on you personally, but:

    Homer: Not a bear in sight. The Bear Patrol must be working like a
    charm.
    Lisa: That’s specious reasoning, Dad.
    Homer: Thank you, dear.
    Lisa: By your logic I could claim that this rock keeps tigers away.
    Homer: Oh, how does it work?
    Lisa: It doesn’t work.
    Homer: Uh-huh.
    Lisa: It’s just a stupid rock.
    Homer: Uh-huh.
    Lisa: But I don’t see any tigers around, do you?
    [Homer thinks of this, then pulls out some money]
    Homer: Lisa, I want to buy your rock.

    It’s far more likely that some other factor — wealth, class, culture, genetics — tends to cause both higher levels of education and lower levels of divorce, than that a college degree causes you to be less likely to divorce. In other words, if your daughter is the type who would do well at college, she may also be less likely than the average to divorce. But if she’s not of the non-divorcing type, sending her to college won’t make her so.

    Everything I know about the current college environment, from the hooking up to the debt load to the Women’s Studies courses, tells me it encourages divorce. I suspect that if you studied a large group of women and compared the college graduates to the high school graduates while correcting for other factors like IQ and family wealth, you’d find that the non-college-educated will have lower rates of divorce and longer marriages when all other things are equal. That’s just my guess, but I’d put a large wager on it.

  88. Leap of a Beta

    Also, I want to point out that I care far less about whether a woman is educated in any fashion and far more about whether she has a sense of curiosity. Both intellectual curiosity and a physical one (sense of adventure and all).

    A woman without a curious nature will never be able to relate to me, nor I to her, nor transfer any traits I hold important to children we have as they’re raised and find their own desires and interests outside of ours as parents.

    College education is almost always good for destroying this sense of curiosity

    [ssm: Good point. I think it's easier for men to find smart but non-college-educated girls than it is for girls to find smart but non-college-educated men.]

  89. Stg58/Animal Mother

    I followed my dad’s example and married a woman with a HS diploma. She herself was marking time with office work until I arrived to sweep her off her feet
    Every girl with a degree would go on and about how much smarter I was than they were. I would remind them that they were the ones with college degrees, not me. One girlfriend was a high school chemistry teacher, and told me she didn’t know if she could homeschool our kids. My mom did it with an HS diploma, so she could too.

    My wife displays none of this behavior.

  90. sunshinemary

    @ Ton
    I’m interested in your comment that you advised your daughter to marry but not your son. I don’t have any sons, so I’m not sure how I would advise them.

    Is that what everyone else is doing? Are you all telling your daughters to marry and telling your sons not to?

  91. UnicornHunter

    @Cail – Now that I know better, I’d take average IQ combined with femininity and virtue over high IQ without those things any day.

    AMEN!!!!

    @tbc –
    Hmm… I would agree that sexual attraction is absolutely not correlated with education or IQ.

    There is some research and I don’t remember where I ran into it that generally speaking smarter people are more attractive. Anecdotally, in five years of hitting up the bars and clubs and talking to attractive women, I’ve only ever run into a handful that were uneducated and of only average intelligence. Most were teachers or nurses and the rest current college students.

    @SC – you wrote some good things, but one thing that bothers me as I consider this for my daughters looking in to the UMC from the periphery is that generally speaking, the UMC men appear to be quite feminine in comparison to their LMC counterparts. Maybe that speaks more to my life experience and how I see the world. Shrug.

  92. Cail Corishev

    SSM, thanks for the link to that Dalrock page. I didn’t figure anyone had done a study on that, but I see it’s too late to get my wager down. Shucks.

  93. Frank

    A woman without a curious nature will never be able to relate to me, nor I to her, nor transfer any traits I hold important to children we have as they’re raised and find their own desires and interests outside of ours as parents.

    ^^^THIS

    Even more rewarding is if she looks to me as her intellectual sage. She wants education, I’ll give her all the education she needs. *waggles eyebrows*

    And while I partly jest, the idea that she could draw on me for wisdom, advice and learning makes me believe it would be a powerful foundation for bonding together even more as a couple. Sigh, what could have been, and what likely will never be.

  94. sunshinemary

    Deti:

    I also think some of it is how college men are (or were) socialized to be beta providers. Most men just aren’t very attractive and aren’t high on the list of alpha traits like confidence, dominance, poise and status. The only way most men have any shot at any of those things is through academic achievement and earning power.

    A question: does academic achievement and earning power give them alpha traits? I would think it does, but then what to make of a man like Michael from Dalrock’s current thread? He has a high level of education and a good income but the fish aren’t biting, at least not the ones he wants. And Novaseeker noted:

    Income is fine — for you. It isn’t important for attraction for women in the 21st. Not. Important.

  95. Cail Corishev

    There is some research and I don’t remember where I ran into it that generally speaking smarter people are more attractive.

    This is extremely politically incorrect, but: IQ correlates with pretty much every measure of success in life in this world. In other words, if you stop 1000 people on the street and give them an IQ test, then divide them into the highest 500 and the lowest 500, the highest 500 on average will have higher incomes, fewer divorces, fewer arrests, better grades and behavior in school, better looks, better health, more self-reported happiness, and so on. The things that don’t correlate with IQ are actually kinda rare — Steve Sailer has pointed out that rhythm seems to be one.

    There will be exceptions and outliers, of course — I’m one myself in some big ways. But in general, if you see someone who’s unusually attractive and healthy-looking, the odds are better than 50/50 that she’s smarter than average too.

  96. shankysays

    Hi SSM,
    I’ve been lurking for a while now. Decided to comment for the first time.

    Aren’t there any matrimonial websites in US? Not dating websites, but websites specifically dedicated for marriage? Plenty of such websites exist in India and they must be profitable because I’ve even seen ads on TV.

    Typically, the girl’s profile is filled in by her father, looking for a suitable match. After selecting an initial pool of suitors, they might be invited over for dinner along with their family. Suitors who are pre-approved can take her out for dates (nothing sexual – just dinner, maybe a movie) and talk about their interests. After a period of time, she is expected to make her choice and then the wedding is finalized. This is usually how it works in urban India. In rural India, such dates are will not be allowed and the marriage is fixed by the parents directly.

    Perhaps someone in the US you could set up a website following a similar model. If there are enough conservative groups, they could all register on the website to create a large enough pool of potential brides and grooms. Over time, this could grow into a bigger social phenomenon attracting marriage-minded people in the US.

    [ssm: Hey, thanks for commenting! I was just wondering about something regarding India, and here you are! :) First, your suggestion for a matrimonial site is interesting but probably wouldn't fit that well in our culture. Second, there are many higher IQ Indians in the U.S. and their children seem to do very well. How do Indian parents raise their children (especially their daughters) to value marriage and to do well in life despite the challenges of being higher IQ?]

  97. AC

    You should read Charles Murray’s “Coming Apart: The State of White America”.
    He describes a world where the social classes become more and more stratified: Basically
    “encouraging the best and brightest to work and live and (especially) mate within the cocoons of what he calls the SuperZIPS, segregating Americans by intelligence to an unprecedented degree, and creating a self-reinforcing pattern in to those with much social capital, much more is given, while to those without, even what they have is taken away.” This is already happening.

    I think the main deal is the girl in question needs to show she is educated and have a “skill”. She does not have to be a hard charging lawyer, banking, or high powered executive, but to “marry well” she has to show she has either a good family background or is educated in some way..and then she can scale back when she marries her high powered husband. Successful millenial men marrying their secretaries are still few between..its not sanctioned by their peers..its not cool..check back in 30 years maybe we will be reupholstered for their secretaries.

    I studied at an ivy league and I’m thinking about ALL the marriages of my peers (this year) i have gone to ( late twenties early thirties here..everyone is starting to drop like flies) .
    – Female ivy leage running ebay business with Phd investment banker
    – Female harvard educated with Wharton MBA
    – Female swiss and french educated marrying a swiss mckinsey consultant
    – two people with masters in international policy
    – College educated elementary school teacher with i banker
    – Female doctor with male mba
    – Female doctor with plastic surgeon
    – Personally I’m married to a doctor who graduated from stanford.

    Who knows what will happen to the girls and their careers later on when we have children, but so far like is marrying like.

    I can’t think of someone I know who married someone with just a high school degree. And maybe this is snarky, but if this poor girl was brought into our social circles she would have to show she’s “really cool” to be socially accepted. When I lived in NYC there was the “princeton” crowd, the “penn crowd” etc etc. So your girl may have to go for MRS degree..maybe.

  98. UnicornHunter

    A question: does academic achievement and earning power give them alpha traits?

    I generally agree with Nova. I suspect that women who work at jobs making less money would be more impressed. So, if you want to date the pharmacy technician at the grocery store pharmacy, she’s probably going to be impressed with your professional level wages. The girl who works on the other side of the floor, not so much.

  99. Cail Corishev

    A question: does academic achievement and earning power give them alpha traits?

    Wealth offers a certain amount of alpha cred on its own, at least temporarily. It’s not enough by itself, but if a guy has some alpha tendencies, wealth can boost his attractiveness. I can’t remember right now what LAMPS stood for, but I’m pretty sure the P was Power, and wealth does mean power, after all.

    Academic achievement: I’d say no. Intelligence or knowledge my be attractive to some extent, but that would be the case whether or not a man used them to satisfy a series of teachers.

  100. deti

    SSM:

    Generally, academic achievement and earning power don’t give men alpha traits. The only thing it does do is give those men some status and maybe a little confidence. From the Dalrock thread, Michael’s main issue is a sense that his earning power ENTITLES him to a good woman.

  101. Frank

    This is extremely politically incorrect, but: IQ correlates with pretty much every measure of success in life in this world.

    Man, I’m glad my IQ solidly ranks in the upper lower middle scale of exceptionally substandard mediocrity then. Drinks around!

  102. anonymous

    shankysays: Aren’t there any matrimonial websites in US? Not dating websites, but websites specifically dedicated for marriage?

    Christianity requires that sex be reserved for marriage, so ALL Christian dating websites are, in effect matrimonial websites. A lot of people get married in the US as a result of these websites, myself included.

    The same would be true for Mormon, Orthdox Jewish, and Muslim matchmaking websites, I’d assume, since those religions have the same rule.

  103. tbc

    There is some research and I don’t remember where I ran into it that generally speaking smarter people are more attractive.

    That is likely to be because attractiveness correlates pretty closely with overall physical health in general. And healthier people are likely to be smarter. Smarter people are likely to get higher incomes which enable them to live healthier lives.

  104. Looking Glass

    @Cail:

    You hit this issue before I did, but did you get a lot of “he’s too young to be socially ready for X” crap? I got hit with that quite a lot, even if I had perfect manners and had no issue talking circles around the people making the statement. Though, for me, it worked out, as actually finishing a bachelors at 17 would have resulted in far more trouble for my 20s. (Mostly as I couldn’t walk for part of them)

    On the UMC stuff:

    I’ve got no problem with dealing with it from that point of view. There’s quite a lot to be said for thinking in confined social or economic terms. Though I still find most UMC, and especially the highly educated, exceptionally boring people. With some pretty rare exceptions, they actually don’t know how to have an honest conversation. Then again, I’m a divergent personality, so I get to do life a little differently.

  105. Nergal

    “Are university educations, especially at elite schools, a good idea for women who are going to end up as housewives?”

    You could accomplish the same thing hanging out at the cafeteria at some university campus. Why can’t women do anything that they want to do without messing up somebody else’s ability to feed themselves.

    If you’re going to college on taxpayer money, some other guy is going to wind up homeless because of you. If you want to take the food out of somebody’s mouth, you had better be a selfless charitable godly person who gives food to every homeless person you meet or you had BETTER have a good reason. How could you put somebody else out in the street to starve because you want to use an institution of higher learning like a dating service? Why don’t you just make your intention to marry potentially high-earning intelligent men known and have us arrange some kind of dating pool for you instead of ruining other people’s lives? Why don’t you care more about those with no options than someone like yourself with plenty of choices?

    Can you imagine men deciding they want to build giant rec facilities in every city and accomplishing that by driving elderly widows out of their homes so they can have a good time?

    That’s what you’re doing.

    And yeah,men with high education are marrying women with high education, that’s because
    the mercenary little sluts are throwing themselves at those men,but self-conscious enough to pretend that that isn’t what they’re doing.

    Look,you’re never going to do anything with that education. You’re never going to discover the cure for cancer, and the guy who is is STARVING TO DEATH ON THE STREETS,sleeping underneath a newspaper,because you can’t even organize a dating service by yourselves and abuse every institution men create to further your own selfish goals.

    And the people who said they’d encourage girls to go into STEM? Way to cut your own throats. In 50 years you won’t have buildings that can stand freely or cars that could pass a minimum safety test,but you WILL have men permanently frozen out of the field,so that women can marry the few remaining guys who make a six figure salary. You’re talking a gradual descent into the Dark Ages as more and more men drop out.

    You won’t even be able to take a crap like a civilized human being because no woman truly cares about scientific excellence. Not the way that men do.

    [ssm: Hi Nergal. I think you’ve gotten lost. Dalrock’s is over yonder. That is where you can find the morally superior sex making suggestions like this recent one on a thread there:

    …didn’t you hear? – they just recently invented the male pill. In fact, it’s so damned good the guy doesn’t even have to take it!

    It’s called Plan B and any fifteen y.o. can get it, so it’s in the same not-very-serious class of drugs like aspirin. -Mixes wells with orange juice, smoothies, milk shakes, Starbucks capuccinos (sp?), whatever. A little extra trouble, but really no big deal. Tell a friend.

    Yes, indeed. Nothing like suggesting that men grind up hormone pills and sneak them into an unsuspecting woman’s drink to prove what Lena S. recently said on a thread at Julian O’Dea’s blog:

    The men and women of any era deserve each other.

  106. sunshinemary

    Since we’ve veered off into issues of IQ and class, I wish to make a few things clear, though I’m sure we all mostly agree on it:

    1. There are differences in average IQ between different socio-economic classes and racial groups.
    2. This is important because it means that life goals and family formation strategies will vary by socio-economic class and race.
    3. It is the official position of this blog that no one race or socio-economic class is “better” in terms of intrinsic value than any other. I understand what the HBD people are saying about there being real differences in functionality, aggression and so on, and it’s fine to acknowledge that, but let us remember that man’s chief end is to glorify God and we are all equally able to do that in our own way.
    4. God loves the highest and lowest IQ people equally; it does not matter if you are 162 or 62. Christ died for everyone’s sins regardless and each of us is precious to Him. And no matter how dreadful someone’s behavior may be, all humans retain the image of God. Possibly the most repulsive thing I have ever read on an HBD blog was the assertion that perhaps it is possible for some people (and the author was in specific talking about violent, low-IQ blacks) to lose Imago Dei. I utterly disagree with that. All men are made in the image of God.
    5. However, just because one socio-economic or IQ class is not intrinsically “better” also does not mean that we are being “elitist” by wanting to discuss the particular issues that pertain to our particular socio-economic/IQ group. Most of us here are on the right hand side of the bell curve to one degree or another and as such, we have many similar family-formation strategies/life goals. We are not bad for wanting to discuss our own issues and we are not required to discuss any other group, nor are we racist, classist, or elitist for our failure to do so in this discussion.

    OK, I’m getting off my soapbox now.

  107. Looking Glass

    In other news, SSM is used to being in the UMC and tossing out modifiers before making statements. Mostly as most in the UMC are actually incapable of handling basic logic.
    :)

    [ssm: I am adverbially inclined today. :) However, your insistence that I use logic is clearly indicative of the fact that you are an oppressive, misogynistic patriarchalist. Please report to the nearest re-education center University Women's Studies Department to learn more about "women's special ways of knowing."]

  108. an observer

    Anonymous,

    Girls go to college to get more knowledge

    That one might be worth a bigger dowry, though…

  109. anonymous

    In the near future:

    ENGAGEMENT ANNOUNCEMENT — STONER – KALASHNIKOV

    The parents of LilSunshine M. Stoner (17), and Van R. Kalashnikov (19) are pleased to announce the engagement of their children Bride and groom are homeschool graduates who entered college early. The groom, Van, is set to graduate from Adult Career Development College (ACDC) next month, with a Bachelor’s degree in Metallurgical Engineering, while the bride attended New College Nottingham (UK), on a varsity belly-dancing scholarship; she recently completed an Associate of Arts in Heavy Metal studies.…. Says family friend D. ALrock, “It’s cool that they both know how to work metal, albeit in very different ways…” Nuptials will be held one week after Kalashnikov’s graduation, on June 19th at 10 AM, at St. Ozzy’s…

    [ssm: The bride and groom sported matching tattoos...]

  110. Jeremy

    I stopped and laughed at “wall to wall carpet”. Does she understand the lower maintenance and longer durability of hardwood?

    I actually have no problem with women going to college with the expressed purpose of getting married. In a way, I would actually encourage that. However, just like NBA/Football stars in college, they should pick a worthwhile major and try to do well in it. Anyone who goes to a university and thinks they will use the university for primarily anything other than learning is, in fact, wasting time and money. Worse, since they are taking up space, they’re wasting someone else’s time.

  111. an observer

    Back in the day, the christians i knew that wanted to marry went off to bridal college. For some it helped, for others it did not.

    Seems all the women were attracted to the same christian alpha(s).

  112. Fearsome Pirate

    If all men were red-pill-aware, then no, you wouldn’t need to send a girl to college. But since they aren’t, since nearly all men are steeped in feminism, they also believe that women ought to go to college to achieve their potential. Most men *want* women to go to college and “achieve.” Of course, either wifey dearest drops out of the workforce to make babies (as many of my fellow STEM-having female friends from undergrads did), or they discover in their thirties that no, I can’t have it all (unfortunately, my situation, as I was a blue piller throughout my 6-year courtship and didn’t know to say “no”).

    If more Christian men took the red pill, they’d understand a college education has nothing to do with being a good wife, and a pretty, feminine, well-read girl with excellent home economics skills (from cooking to budgeting) is what they need, and such a girl would be the top prize for the best man.

  113. SC

    @UnicornHunter

    Maybe you are right. But, that being said, why would a conservative, ectomorphic, introverted high IQ/education/social class/income girl like me want a masculine alpha male? UMC men may be less muscular, violent, aggressive, assertive and more cerebral, braniac, patient, studious because it is how most UMC women want them to be. I am not a LMC guidette so I don’t want a LMC man who in the words of Snooki, is a “Tanned; guido; juicehead gorilla; big sense of humor; likes to party; fist-pumps.”

    I want somebody who is more or less like myself. Conservative, ectomorphic, introverted, high IQ/education/social class/income, comes from a nuclear family. Bonus points if he is a STEM nerd and has nerdy hobbies.

  114. Cail Corishev

    @SSM:

    Since we’ve veered off into issues of IQ and class, I wish to make a few things clear, though I’m sure we all mostly agree on it:

    Agreed on all points. Sometimes in these discussions I include a disclaimer to this effect: intelligence does not equal virtue. As I mentioned above, being smart helped me to be good at lying and avoiding responsibility for my actions. I’m very aware that my intelligence doesn’t make me a better person than anyone else; if anything, as a gift from God, it means I have even less excuse for my failings.

    @Looking Glass:

    You hit this issue before I did, but did you get a lot of “he’s too young to be socially ready for X” crap?

    I was shy enough that I rarely wanted to do anything social, so I can only think of one time that happened that I know of: when I went in for pre-kindergarten testing, I tested high on everything, but especially reading. The teachers allowed me to have reading class with the third grade, which was still well below my level, but they were afraid that I’d be overwhelmed by being with kids any larger or more mature. Dunno, they may have been right at that; I shouldn’t have been in school anyway. Unfortunately, back then homeschooling was basically for the Amish and separatist communes. My folks considered it, but there wasn’t much information on it then.

    My struggle was usually with teachers who didn’t want me working ahead. Some would just get a book from a few grades ahead and let me do my own thing. Those SRA things that you could do at your own pace were pretty cool. But then I’d get to a teacher who insisted that I do the same work as the other kids. That wasn’t so bad for a few years; you get to showoff on things like multiplication tables and spelling bees. But eventually it just gets boring, and you learn to resent being required to do anything at all.

    To add to your idea about strictly-enforced boundaries, I was thinking I’d add plenty of mental challenge. I don’t mean the Tiger Mom method where you hold the kid’s nose to the academic grindstone until he burns out. I just mean making sure they don’t get mentally bored or lazy. For the most part, I think smart kids will find ways to challenge themselves, but they have to be able to get to the materials. Fortunately, we went to the library a lot, and no one ever said, “Hey, you’re only 8, what are you doing with a book by Edgar Allen Poe?” We also had 4-H and other activities where you could design projects and build stuff and move ahead as fast as you could handle without regard to age. Outside of school, life was a pretty constant adventure of learning and trying new things.

  115. TheShadowedKnight

    I advocate homeschooling to provide the proper intellectual growth for young children, and so a college educated woman would be a plus for anyone taking that route. Not to mention the ability to select for more intelligent mates. Women attending college should be using it as an opportunity to make themselves more attractive as a marriage prospect. Male attraction is based off of looks and personality, but a wife needs more than just a pretty face. However, it is her responsibility to get a useful degree, i.e, STEM, education (if they take it seriously), nursing, etc. This will help her sell herself. College serves an important and useful service; matchmaking for the best and brightest of the population to provide suitable pairs for the purpose of reproduction.

  116. anonymous

    Since we’ve veered off into issues of IQ and class

    .. I will offer the observation that faith acts as a proxy for intelligence.

    That is to say — the UMC is strongly in favor of 2 parent families, in-wedlock childbearing, etc., at least among themselves. Simply put, they are smart and foresightful enough to figure out that it’s the best way, on their own — they dont “need” the Bible or any other wisdom of the past (divine or human) to tell them these things.

    Much of the population, however, is NOT that smart and will NOT be able to figure this stuff out, or at least not til too late. Faithful obedience to Scripture, or even just following an inherited cultural tradition of monogamy, will protect them — indeed, in the past, really DID protect them — from single motherhood and the social devastation it brings.

    So… taking away the faith, de-religiofying society (as the UMC seems hell bent on doing), constitutes an injustice to the lower IQ segment of the population, those who can’t figure things out themselves.

    And the UMC doesn’t understand why the rest of society is in meltdown. Maybe they’re not that smart, after all..

  117. empathologism

    One can be so introverted as to not know whether their potential date is ectomorphic, in which case a micrometer or caliper should be applied head to toe, hip to foot, shoulder to hand, and with the coincident weights and densities a sort of TDS created for the new dating profile site. This can all be fed into an algorithm called “Sort Morph”. The added benefit would be that doing all this is a nerdy hobby which is somewhat self associating. That, as well as using ectomorph more than once in a paragraph will spontaneously generate the playing of the Love Story theme when the profiles merge using a new App called Ectomorph Booth on I-phone 27.

    If the morphs do not morph it plays….Suicide is Painless

  118. archerwfisher

    Ehh, Sunshine, you’ve been out of school way too long. There’s tons of girls in college–getting great grades–who strike one as complete idiot, fluffhead, after 10 minutes of chatting. It’s not fitness testing, though the flip side of that is the simple “you meet people where you hang out” and how “college degrees are the new high school degrees.”

    And seriously, how many of us guys in college are looking to support financially a woman who is just as fit to earn money as us? Ridiculous.

    And about commuter schools/vs party schools–I go to a commuter school, Kennesaw State, and the first semester or two when I cared, everyone I asked was quick to agree that most people had the attitude of “go to school, punch the attendance sheet, go home.” It seems like people have a few friends, and they know people from high school, like that.

  119. Looking Glass

    @Cail:

    Yeah, I hit in the late 80s/early 90s, so things had shifted a bit. Homeschooling was somewhat available (although nothing like now), but I spent a lot of time doing my own thing. Though they wouldn’t skip me, twice, because I was a boy. (Technically the first time I ran into the anti-male bigotry, even though it was dressed up in other language.)

    I still remember getting called out for having missed 2 problems on a math test, while scoring highest in the class, because everyone else did poorly. I probably never forgot it due to the basic implication that I was: 1) better than everyone else and 2) apparently not allowed to make mistakes. I never took too kindly to people making the second assumption about me, even if I have a perfectionist streak a mile wide.

    I actually don’t remember a lot of the school work, as I did most of my learning on the side. Taught myself to add & subtract in Roman Numerals. Was reading US News & World Reports at age 9. Watched everything I could on news programs (days before cable was available). Technical spec books on military aircraft. Books and books on geography and world landmarks. All sorts of things that had little to do with actual studies, as my actual studies were dreadfully boring.

    But there did end up being one fairly nasty problem as a result of all of this. My “technical” education was pretty terrible. And I still would like to beat senseless the idiots that pushed the Whole Reading crap. I shouldn’t have needed to go back to learn phonetics when it was supposed to be part of the curriculum. (I have a massive vocabulary, that I rarely use, completely memorized by sight. Which is fine, assuming you don’t need to read it out loud.)

    The end result is that we harnessed my Energizer Bunny traits into doing pretty much everything available. Which always kept me busy and interested in something, even if not my school work. Granted, this ended up masking my slowly degrading ability to concentrate, letting me lean on my other, natural skills to cover the lack of available mental energy. I still haven’t actually explained that detail to friends from high school. The fact I was better at school than they were, with only about 75% of normal mental energy available, is going to come across like I’m mocking them. Even years later.

  120. an observer

    Is there a correlation between education level and bitchiness?

    R squared must be pretty high.

  121. Cail Corishev

    I advocate homeschooling to provide the proper intellectual growth for young children, and so a college educated woman would be a plus for anyone taking that route.

    See my long comment above about how a homeschooling parent (or just an involved parent) needs to know loads of things, almost none of which are taught in college. The teacher who gets an Education degree isn’t primarily learning the courses she’s going to teach; she’s learning the supposed proper way to teach and control the classroom. You don’t need college-level math to teach a kid fractions, and you don’t need a minor in comparative literature to help your kid through high school Shakespeare. (If you did, most schoolteachers would be hopeless.) You need patience, resolve, and the ability to take your knowledge (even if you just looked that knowledge up) and put it into words they can understand. Parenting skills, in other words.

    College serves an important and useful service; matchmaking for the best and brightest of the population to provide suitable pairs for the purpose of reproduction.

    If the purpose of college is to act as a proxy for intelligence so smart people can find each other, it’s a darned expensive one. You can get a serious, shrink-administered IQ test for a few hundred bucks. We could all just take one of those, wear the number as a badge on our chests when we go out on weekends, and save several years and a whole lot of money.

  122. Looking Glass

    @Anon:

    My father, a PhD in Physics and was an aerospace/missile Engineer, called a PhD the “legal right to be an idiot in court”. Given that was a while ago, I’d update it to be being “a PhD is a societal marker that you’re stupid enough to go through all of that work for a piece of paper”. And I really wanted mine, haha.

    It’s less the UMC types are actually that much smarter, they aren’t. They just favor stability higher and can see damage from certain actions. There’s still a vein of religiosity among them, so they have see what “works” better. But don’t think they aren’t just following the previous “scripts”, just playing it a bit better. Though they do have skills, normally quite a number of them. They just lack the basic ability to look at their assumptions about the world. (Before the 1960s, this was called “Critical Thinking”. Now it’s called being “a bigoted, knuckle-dragging Conservative”.)

    @empathologism:

    I thought M.A.S.H. references were verboten due to the stupid profile of Alan Alda being the Ultimate Male?

  123. Ton

    SSM, marriage is a good deal for women, a bad, Bad, BAD, deal for men.

    Seems like the only rational approach

    UMC men are generally lacking in masculinity. I am dumb founded dealing with them, and I am basically everything UMC don’t want in a man, yet I date a large number of them. Mostly it boils down to these woman wanting someone to take charge of them/ their non work life. All have said some version of that.

  124. an observer

    A ywammer acquaintance spent her twenties totally sold out to the then focus on busyness, as a proxy for sprituality.

    She then spent a decent chunk of her thirties training as a teacher.

    Now in her forties, she raises other peoples children for a living.

  125. archerwfisher

    I have to wonder–as I’m probably in a younger generation than most of you–but why should a woman get to stay home or just work part time anymore than her husband, if they’re both college educated? I mean, women get all sorts of special privileges these days. And hiring favors them in most jobs that don’t require a lot of strength.

    If a man and woman (who both have Bachelor’s degrees and 3.5 GPA’s) marry each other, unless one suffers an awful injury, why should she get to stay home or just work part time instead of him? Realistically speaking.

  126. anonymous

    My father, a PhD in Physics and was an aerospace/missile Engineer, called a PhD the “legal right to be an idiot in court”. Given that was a while ago, I’d update it to be being “a PhD is a societal marker that you’re stupid enough to go through all of that work for a piece of paper”.

    I have asserted — as a STEM PhD myself — that a STEM PhD is a marker for pathological persistence, long past the point where any sane person would have just QUIT. Really, I should have just quit with my engineering BS.

    NonSTEM PhDs… well… the paper might help you kindle a fire on a cold night….

  127. anonymous

    Whoops — obviously something went badly wrong with that one! Please delete!

    I think you copy/pasted the whole thread by accident. I did that once. It can happen to anyone.

  128. an observer

    . It wasn’t seen as problematic for a man to be married and a student then the way it is now. I think excessive materialism and self-centeredness on both sexes’ parts is to blame.

    Incorrect. Fiat currency inflation has made the basics of life way more expensive on one wage. Abortion, the pill and more women in the workplace has compounded this.

    Education is no longer a good indicator of how much intelligence and wisdom a woman carries. Now it’s all about brainwashing the masses into becoming liberals while bankrupting them at the same time.

    Absolutely. I dated a hairdresser, a reasonable girl that i broke up with early on. Her hs diploma had nothing to do with it; i just wasn’t that attracted to her.

    The longer a girl spends in formal education, the more brainwashed she becomes. Until shes voting for the green fascists, cutting her hair off and insisting shes oppressed.

  129. Novaseeker

    Let’s try that again.

    My experience is the same as AC’s. At elite institutions — Ivies, Stanford, Chicago, the public ivies, etc. — the marriage rate is quite high, but like is marrying like. I only know one person from my college or grad school peers who married a woman without at least a college degree (and that was a case where he married his former HS sweetheart after she divorced her first H). The marrying the secretary thing went out at least a generation ahead of mine. Even though I’m 15-20 years ahead of AC, my generation behaved the same way, roughly, as his did, when it comes to grads of elite institutions.

    What this means for the question in the OP is that it depends what you want for the daughter in question and her aptitude. Most women who go to those kind of schools are getting married to quite suitable men, eventually, who went to one of the other similar institutions if not their own. This isn’t because the institutions are magic — they’re not. The students are subject to the same cultural pollution, if not worse, than they are anywhere else But it’s also the case that this group is, by and large, more future time oriented, disciplined, driven and focused than average, and that tends to show up later in life as well, leading to lower divorce rates and more stable and successful lives than average.

    With this level of institution, I have not noticed any significant difference between the STEMs and non-STEMs in terms of their life paths and success levels. I know quite a few successful STEM grads — including my former roommate — but just as many successful non-STEM grads, like history majors (even with an MA) now being partners in investment firms, english majors being partners at biglaw firms, non-quantitative econ majors being SVPs an investment banks, and philosophy majors acting as counsel to Committee X on The Hill. Now, these opportunities require lots of dedication and effort no matter where you are starting from, but they are a little bit more reachable if you have the elite institution background.

    Which means that it depends what you want for you daughter. These people tend to marry a lot, not divorce a lot, and be very successful. They don’t generally marry young, but they are kind of like cicadas in that they all seem to marry and mate around the same time — between 27 and 34. They also tend to not be religious (although there are certainly *some* who are, it isn’t very common). Among this set, it’s almost unthinkable that the men would marry a woman without a college degree, never mind a degree from a certain “level” of institution as well. But that may not be what you want.

    I suspect that among the more normal college educated set, it really does depend on the individual, what they do for a living, what their own criteria are, and so on. I’d expect there to be more open-ness there to dating/marrying a woman who didn’t have the same educational background.

  130. empathologism

    A serious remark….

    My wife was a HS grad only when we met and married, me a Chem Eng. gainfully employed for a few years by then and her 23. She home schooled three kids, forth one came then 10 years later. But wife entered university at 44, now at 47 lacks 1 year and will have a Bach degree in a medical field. This plan worked on many levels. It did insulate her from the head shaving and wild idea stuff other than as fodder for her and I to laugh at.

    [ssm: If a woman is going to go to school and have a career, the way your wife is doing it is probably the optimal approach. She's old enough now to have some wisdom and self-restraint, plus she has a husband to keep her from going off the rails. Finding a husband and bearing/raising children should precede a career, but we encourage girls to do it the other way around, which is why so many of them are ending up involuntarily childless and still unmarried when they hit forty.]

  131. Looking Glass

    @anon:

    I had the desire a bit worse. I was headed towards 2 Master’s and 1 PhD. The PhD would have been in Theology/Divinity Studies of some form, but the second master’s would have been in Mathematics. Lord help me, I actually wanted to teach at a college. (With the way things could have worked out, there would have been a position open at my alma mater at the exact time I would have been trying to find a position)

    But, unlikely far too many academics, I had the unfortunate trait of being hyper-productive. It doesn’t take that long to write a Thesis. I could have done it in less than 2 years. But, hey, I wasn’t going to do it in a STEM field. Those should take 4, at most!

    I also seemed to be strange among the “wants to teach college” set in that I had outside skills that I could employ to make money. It always amazed me how many people really didn’t put any planning into how to survive… when you want to get a PhD.

  132. RedPillPaul

    Men “value” girls in college because that is what they were told to value by their mothers (and fathers due to mother telling father the same).

  133. ray

    “Ah, the war of the sexes is so easy at that age, when the opposite sex is cootie-infested, worthy only to be mocked and then avoided at all costs.”

    but unlike when i was in grade school in the Fifties, girls are now taught from elementary school thru college to mock and degrade both boys and men — it’s actually a sub-industry in amaryka

    that you daughter already is parroting the matriarchy’s loathing of maleness is not a good sign, nor ought you to dismiss it so casually

    this is not 1959

    she will only learn more hate the longer she remains in outside schooling, which is why Christian girls should not attend public high school or college — and even elementary school in the current culture guaratees girls will swim in a collective consciousness of misandry and anti-christian ideas and values

    now that the nation’s daughters are privileged above males in every facet of life, including educational and workplace preferences, exactly how do the “wise parents” of such girls expect for them to find husbands at age 25 or 35 — after theyve taken the places that in most cases should have gone to boys and young men? most of those guys are thus done for life, get it? you cant suddenly and conveniently funnel them back into the matriarchy when you and your daughters decide youre ready for “men to step up” and get married at your chosen hour…. your girls already took his education, his job, his place in society, his future, his self-worth

    yes, the parents of daughters — definitely including Christians — have ben VERY happy with the feminist revolution over the past forty years, tho they and their pastors claim otherwise . . . publically

    truly, living in a Bubble

    Christian parents should home-school their daughters, keep them away as much as possible from the “boys are stupid” kulture (basically, everywhere) and marry or them betroth them a.s.a.p. — while a few u.s. men are still allowed to have jobs and attend college

    want to send her instead to Babylon for skooling? fine, then she will emerge as a product of Babylon, and if you think your home-influence will overcome Babylon’s influences, youre kidding yourselves (and most of you are)

    when she’s 20 and reaches your established marriage-point, she will already have 15 years of in-school and out-of-school Stupid Men conditioning, as well as a likely extensive education in sexuality and treatment of STDs (of course that’s just for the daughters of OTHER people, not yr snowflake heh)

    honestly, the lack of foresight is criminal…. amerika’s daughters and their parents live in La La Land, the nation’s sons can just be shitcanned for half-a-century, and the grrls handed the male’s roles and opportunities (but not his responsibilities) and Shazam! everything will just keep chugging along smoothly, pass more laws and build more cages if the lesser sex gets restless

    unbelievable

    the bill, however, is coming due, and coercion and propaganda only go so far, tough to intimidate people who already have nothing

  134. Ton

    SC you should want a man with balls so he can do his primary job, defend his women and kids. What you have is some guy who has to farm the job out. Your soft life relies on rougher men deciding to behave. One day they will decide otherwise.

    Same for when shit breaks and blue collar guys no longer care

  135. Sigyn

    But it is really best that high IQ girls don’t have children or have only one or two, and instead have careers? Are girls in general, even high IQ ones, really going to do well in the workplace anyway?

    NO. NO NO NO NO. And in case you didn’t hear me, NO.

    Now that I’ve gotten my visceral reaction out of the way, I will explain:

    High-IQ girls are, first and foremost, girls. We are still prone to the same issues that other girls are–primarily, herd-mindedness and the desire to be approved of. We don’t magically turn into boys from the neck up, and this also means that most of us still don’t get very far in the math-and-science department once it gets to upper levels. We still gravitate toward soft sciences and liberal arts, fields that don’t produce anything and don’t really justify degrees outside of a career in teaching.

    Now, consider the love of approval in light of most schooling. The emphasis on grading instead of knowledge gained–i.e., straight A’s good!–means that high-IQ girls will pretty quickly figure out that if we do easier work with fewer challenges, we’ll get the all-important A and Daddy will love us better. Thus, no challenges to build character and discipline. We develop fewer study skills and our taste for actual learning is dulled. We also find it’s better to do repetitive busy work with less risk.

    Love of approval is reinforced through the feminist cheerleading and white-knighting that is offered to all girls in school. We encounter less and less adversity as we look better on paper, and everyone goes to bat for us if we get the dreaded A-minus or, God forbid, the B-plus! We take it downright personally if someone offers even constructive criticism. We are better at finding excuses: the teacher wasn’t fair, I had cramps, it’s misogyny (because I can spell that!), and so on.

    So the high-IQ girl tends to end up a deeply defensive person closed to correction and averse to challenges or risk. Not the makings of the best employee in the world, if you ask me.

    In the end, we often wind up as secretaries or housewives anyway–or bitter, angry feminist shrews deeply invested in the system that shields us from criticism. Sometimes both.

    …Oh, gosh, this turned into a blog post on its own. I’ll wind up by pointing you over here. Girls burdened with glorious purpose (sorry for plagiarizing, my lord!) are not conducive to a stable patriarchy, and nobody is served.

    [ssm: Hmm, this makes a lot of sense. And that last line is wonderful and sums up my line of thought; baking pies and making babies should be a girl's glorious purpose, don't you think?]

  136. DavidVS

    Back to the original question…

    1. I have no idea where people searching for spouses will typically meet, in ten or fifteen years. Perhaps, then, the typical age of marriage will be cemented as after-college, and meeting a future spouse at a coffee shop will be so mainstream that no one will feel any need to use college for that search.

    Personally, a huge reason I went to graduate school was because I did not find a wife during my undergraduate years. I could have entered the workforce and started the career I wanted, but how else would I have met women my age? No one had ever taught me an answer to that questions besides “at bars”, which seemed inappropriate. But much has changed.

    2. A few nights ago I asked my wife, “Do you think there there some college students who are good for long-term relationships and others only good for hookups?” Here reply was that she had firm plans for her future: undergraduate degree, graduate degree, move to the city offering her first good job, career, etc. She was not expecting to marry, and was genuinely amazed when I appeared with plans that meshed with hers (teaching, with degree only a year away and then able to move where she would need to live). She then refined her answer: the more college becomes a place to ‘find yourself’ the worse it is for spouse-finding; the better it helps people with firm life plans the better it helps with spouse-finding.

    [ssm: I like her answer. But note: college can be used for either finding oneself or firming up life plans. And that is the problem; it shouldn't have the former function at all.]

  137. Matthew King

    Sending your daughter to college to get a husband is like throwing her in a septic tank to fish out the shiniest turd. Not only are you paying hundreds of thousands of dollars to indoctrinate your child against you, your country, your faith, and your political philosophy, you are authorizing her to test the limits of her limitless hypergamy, inebriated or worse, in a frathouseful of unabashed cock. But do send care packages, mom!

    Oh, and the 40% of boys who graduate from the estrogen cloud of lefty mind-poisoning church are not any kind of “men” your worst enemy would wish on your daughter. They are soft SWPL who will apologize for their penis.

    I am the foremost advocate of the seven liberal arts and training in the three professions. I am a great believer in the utility of STEM degrees for the upcoming age of scarcity and ignorance. But college campuses are not places of higher learning anymore. If you hate your little girl, you will encourage her to go one of them.

    “MRS” degree? What is an Mrs.? We outlawed that term and vilified the concept behind it. The Bachelor of Arts diploma means training in the “art” of being passed around by “bachelors,” or how to get fucked by as many single men in four years as physically possible.

    We are harvesting the manifold absurdities planted generations ago. This is no time to toss your children in front of the combine. Her future husband, if he is a man, will take a girl’s avoidance of the four-year whore holiday as a sign she is worth a vow. And they will openly thank you for not saddling such a worthy young wife with a $200K anti-dowry.

    Matt

    [ssm: Of course your answer makes me want to start singing a background chorus of Glory, glory, hallelujah. But where will we find this future husband if not at college? Where will we even start searching? If such young men are at church, they are hiding somewhere where I cannot see them. Do we send her out to a job to scout for men? Take out an ad? Start a blog and pretend to care about issues but really use it to generate marriage proposals for our daughters (/kidding, despite what anonymous and tbc may say :))?]

  138. nightskyradio

    SSM – what should be done about unusually high IQ girls? We’ve been socialized to think that it’s a huge waste for them not to go to college, but I wonder. Why should they not be considered prime breeding stock (to be rather crude) rather than work horses

    Sounds like prime candidates for homeschooling their high-IQ kids.

    poor kind of sucks. I have to say that it gave me skills I wouldn’t have gotten otherwise

    Like selling basil on the street corner by the college?

    I know what you mean, though. Being dead broke does teach one some things. One of them was that Being Smart was not the free pass I had always been told it was.

    Also, nighttime urban survival skillz. ;)

  139. Matthew King

    Sunshine Mary wrote:

    I’m not sure that, despite being very pretty, she would be a suitable wife for anyone because she is so strong-willed.

    Read/watch Taming of the Shrew a few times before you encourage her to her doom.

    It’s okay for her to be “strong-willed,” as long as she is not stronger willed than her mate. Admittedly, that’s a tough match to make among this modern herd of herbs, but not impossible. And a strong-willed woman is an invitation for a man to become even better than he normally would have to be. Men by definition embrace those kind of challenges. I assume your wish is for her to marry a man, not a mouse.

    I will only speak for myself: I have never met a woman with a stronger will than mine. In fact, I doubt their existence. Stubborn Anne-of-Green-Gables types do not grow into their willfulness; they are destroyed by it. The girls who survive that temptation are the ones who flourish — especially because a righteously feminine deference too easily turns into spinelessness.

    We want women to be strong! We just don’t want them to pretend they can be stronger than us. The best people I’ve known in my life, my great grandmother, my grandmother, and my mom all had an unbending rod of righteousness up through the middle of their being. But they never gainsaid their husbands. They never so much as nagged. It is possible.

    Matt

    [ssm: Well, I love Taming of the Shrew and also Kiss Me, Kate. You have never met a woman with a stronger will than you because you have never met our eldest daughter, Miss M. She would drive you to drink. And on top of everything else, she is also an extrovert. While out for a walk the other day, she casually remarked, "Mom, I just don't feel right when there aren't lots of other people around. Know what I mean?" I have no idea how I gave birth to this person and I have no idea how we are going to get her married off, which is why I have considered college for her though I don't like the idea. Plus, we do live among a herd of herbs. She would rule a man like that.]

  140. Looking Glass

    Oh, and since it came up as partially a joke, I want to rant a little bit about Hipsters. (That’s also on topic)

    What is it with the spindly build? I see a lot of them, especially the guys, that have got to be a BMI under 20. Their build is “stick” and, frankly, doesn’t look good. You have deltoids, we should see them when you wear tight shirts.

    I’m pretty sure it’s due to a heavy focus on running these days, but they don’t look good. And I’d question anything passed the ability to just run for a long time. I’m fairly sure I could close on them in under 100 yards. It’s a body composition that generally makes you less disease resistant and is fairly useless for any practicality.

    [ssm: An entire tumblr page of hipster boys, for your viewing pleasure.]

  141. ANorthernObserver

    @SSM – re the “bright daughter” coming up with all kinds of rationalizations – all that argumentation is a mental equivalent to pouting, stamping their feet, and saying “I won’t!” In your daughter’s case, her IQ is the most formidable weapon in her arsenal that she can use against you to get out out of whatever it is she doesn’t want to do or take responsibility for, and she’s ready, willing, and able to use it.

    Just like a man maintaining frame when he’s getting hamster-bombed, you have to maintain the “I’m your parent” frame, and not let her get away with this. For her own good. (And I love the “Touch Banshee” school of discipline.. :) )

    I’ve know girls like that who escaped being held responsible for their actions, one of whom had aspirations of going into a high-IQ profession that takes almost 15 years of schooling to get certified for. When she couldn’t / wouldn’t recognize and own a shortcoming she had and course-correct, the “powers-that-be” did it for her – and she almost lost her professional certification. Fortunately she managed to get another position (albeit in a professional backwater), and after a number of years has worked herself back to a place where she’s doing well and is happy with her position.

    Another issue she may have is with empathy. As others have written here, the way “smart” people experience school and the world is vastly different from other people’s experience, so it’ll be a challenge for her relate to other people’s experience, much less empathize with them.

    I’d suggest this – more than her willfulness – is what’ll make it challenging for her to connect with others “not-like”-her. Now, if she’s a book-loving introvert, this may not be a big deal as those kinds of people only need a few kindred souls to keep their socialization tank full. Even so, one still has to interact with the people around us, and good socialization skills are an invaluable asset to have while doing so.

  142. Sigyn

    Muscles are so mainstream. And they do this thing called “not eating”. You’ve probably never heard of it.

    /hipster

  143. allamagoosa

    Heh, I kinda, sorta went to college for a MRS degree. That didn’t exactly happen (not that I’m complaining, I’m still getting married), mostly because the ratio of women to men is something like 4:1 at my particular school. I don’t know how other colleges are right now, but my college was a bad place to try and do that. I’ll be graduating sans-debt so it’s hardly been waste, but not sure what I would tell my daughters if I had any.

    [ssm: Good job on the no-debt thing.]

  144. an observer

    Calorie restriction is thought to extend the lifespan. Supposedly use by Kurzweil and his friends in hope of living until the singularity.

    Not convinced hipsters actually do this consciously. I suspect its more of an affectation, like mac airs and coffee shops.

    Yawn. Pass the bacon, thanks.

  145. ANorthernObserver

    Sigyn May 13, 2013 at 5:58 pm
    Now, consider the love of approval in light of most schooling. The emphasis on grading instead of knowledge gained–i.e., straight A’s good!–means that high-IQ girls will pretty quickly figure out that if we do easier work with fewer challenges, we’ll get the all-important A and Daddy will love us better. Thus, no challenges to build character and discipline. We develop fewer study skills and our taste for actual learning is dulled. We also find it’s better to do repetitive busy work with less risk.

    … We encounter less and less adversity as we look better on paper, and everyone goes to bat for us if we get the dreaded A-minus or, God forbid, the B-plus! We take it downright personally if someone offers even constructive criticism. We are better at finding excuses: the teacher wasn’t fair, I had cramps, it’s misogyny (because I can spell that!), and so on.

    So the high-IQ girl tends to end up a deeply defensive person closed to correction and averse to challenges or risk.

    Sigyn – you’ve just explained a puzzle I’ve been trying to figure out for decades.

    Thanks!

  146. tbc

    That is to say — the UMC is strongly in favor of 2 parent families, in-wedlock childbearing, etc., at least among themselves. Simply put, they are smart and foresightful enough to figure out that it’s the best way, on their own — they don’t “need” the Bible or any other wisdom of the past (divine or human) to tell them these things.

    I don’t think this is so much the case as that UMC have the ability to cover their mistakes with money. Abortions, birth control, and discreet affairs were always the province of the UMC; while they publicly stood against these things, they privately tolerated them among their own class. Wealthy kids strung out on drugs go to rehab — poor kids go to jail. The girls slutting it up on the carousel in college come mostly from UMC homes, but their sluttery doesn’t usually end up in having kids out of wedlock because 1) birth control and 2) abortion. They are no more virtuous or self controlled than the poor — just better at hiding it.

    I remember as a somewhat poor kid going to school with wealthy kids how appalled I was (this was in high school) at how undisciplined, dissolute, and reckless these kids were. They had drinking parties, drove drunk, smoked pot — basically did all the things we “poor inner-city kids” were accused of doing, but all showed up nice and shiny on picture day, graduated and went to top schools — where they mostly continued in the same foolishness. On the other side of the tracks behavior like that ended you up pretty quickly in jail or dead because there were no margins, especially of money or social class, to buffet you from your bad decisions.

  147. SC

    @sunshinemary, in response to your statement “life goals and family formation strategies will vary by socio-economic class and race,” What do you think are the optimal life goals and family formation strategies of people of different races? What do you think are the optimal life goals and family formation strategies of people who are lower class or lower middle class?

    This would be very interesting to me as I live in a SWPL bubble. I have very little opportunity to interact with Blacks, Latinos, Asians, as well as White people who are LC/LMC. My about 70% of the people I see on any given day are UMC White, the remaining 30% are either MMC or UC.

  148. tbc

    @SC – maybe someone of a different race and / or socio-economic class would be the best to answer that

    [ssm: Yes, I think that would be more interesting than if I gave my thoughts.]

  149. Looking Glass

    @an observer:

    Kurzweil isn’t actually wrong, given especially the Okinawa data sets. But there is a difference between running a pretty low total calorie level (which I normally do) and being skin & bones. You can run 1600 calories and still have 800 of it be protein. You’re not going to shed muscle under that regime.

    @Sigyn:

    That does make a lot of sense. Minus the fact I never had a problem trampling over people, so I didn’t much care, but it does explain why the “smart girls”, who were pretty bright, did well in classes but never really wowed you at anything. At all. They were just very good at “doing” school because that’s what was most effective for me. (Also explains all of the do-gooder-ism stuff they do)

  150. Looking Glass

    @tbc:

    I think the short answer for Men, for anyone that isn’t a White UMC/UC Male, is “develop a taste in foreign women”. But that’s probably a topic for a different thread. It’s also going to get messy, even for how important of a topic it is. (The defensive aspects are going to be very different depending on where you are)

  151. anonymous

    I don’t think this is so much the case as that UMC have the ability to cover their mistakes with money.

    Only because of prior good choices. Once they’re in a good position, they can then buffer the effects of some bad decisions (of themselves, or their kids)… up to a point….but that doesn’t last forever. Eventually either you straighten out, or you fall off the rails.

    Absent those preexisting resources, yes, it’s harder to recover from a foolish detour. Again, this is why the dereligiofication of society by the UMC is an injustice: for example, the UMC kids can (usually) play with drugs a little, then take them or leave them. Others, with less intelligence, less foresight, less long term planning, etcv who emulate them, cannot manage it so well and end up falling all the way down — and once again, faith would be a good preventative here, in lieu of IQ.

    BTW it IS possible for MC/UMCs to fall all the way down. I’ve known a few guys from solid backgrounds much like my own — including one of my childhood playmates – who fell all the way down and NEVER recovered. They had parents who did “everything right” as far as I can tell. but they took the partying a little too far, and went down, down, down into an unfixable tailspin of drunken/stoned homelessness.

    I also know a guy from a family where everyone else but him is a master’s or Phd… he’s a manual laborer — not that there’s anything wrong with that, of course, all civilization depends on it — but in HIS case, it’s a failure because he had the potential to achieve a lot higher than that, and didn’t. He didn’t fall off the rails due to addiction or anything like that — by his own admission, he was just TOO LAZY to follow the rest of his UMC family down the path of higher education. Oh, and he’s the crappiest manual laborer I ever hired either. I fired him.

    They are no more virtuous or self controlled than the poor — just better at hiding it.

    Ah, not quite. They are SIGNIFICANTLY more self disciplined in the one area where it really counts — ie, the activities that generate money and keep them in the UMC. Otherwise they’d fall off the rails and end up poor and homeless.

    Also a substantial subset of these MC/UMC folks DO go to Church and practice Chistian virtues, and this is undoubtedly, for many, PART of what keeps them middle class. Note the negative example of my friends…. all the resources of their famiilies could not salvage them, but if they’d believed God enough to live differently, it all could have been avoided.

  152. Farm Boy

    The more things change, the more they stay the same

    Dunno about that. Feminism and its allies have changed many things.

  153. Farm Boy

    This is extremely politically incorrect, but: IQ correlates with pretty much every measure of success in life in this world

    The book that best explains this is “The Bell Curve” by Charles Murray

  154. Farm Boy

    baking pies and making babies should be a girl’s glorious purpose

    Yes. We can all go home now.

    [ssm: Before you go...I'm sending you that email now that I threatened to send you on Friday. And you'll probably be offended and hate me forever and never speak to me again, so in case that happens, Farewell Farm Boy! I will change my gravatar to the farm boy from the Princess Bride and compose a sad ballad of loss in your honor. But I have to tell you what I think 'cause I'm just the sort of girl who can't keep her thoughts to herself, so look out, here it comes!]

  155. Farm Boy

    I think the short answer for Men, for anyone that isn’t a White UMC/UC Male, is “develop a taste in foreign women”.

    Why not UMC/UC men?

  156. tbc

    Ah, not quite. They are SIGNIFICANTLY more self disciplined in the one area where it really counts — ie, the activities that generate money and keep them in the UMC. Otherwise they’d fall off the rails and end up poor and homeless

    Well we will disagree on this point. The substantive basis for most (though not all) of UMC wealth is what is inherited, usually from parents who were also UMC or MC, and not just money but social access and social capital. And among the poor you have a subset that are chronically or generationally poor — which is not all of them by any means.

    By example, my grandparents were dirt poor — literally dirt poor. They worked menial low-level jobs all their lives. My parents were ‘working class’ and worked their way up to middle class by retirement. My siblings are all working class. I am working class by income, but middle/upper class by social status & education. My children are very likely to be UMC. So that’s a four generational shift. My children will have no concept of the kind of poverty my grandparents lived in nor even the sort of work-a-day struggle of my parents. And yet in many ways, even if they are less-disciplined than my grandparents, they will generate much more income and have much higher social status.

    Most UMC have similar backgrounds to that. Staying UMC is easier than getting entry into UMC in the first place. Once you are ‘in’ you have access to things besides money to keep you in — things that most poor people don’t have any knowledge of at all and which often hinder their social mobility. (like how credit systems work, how to travel internationally, how to navigate certain social situations etc) — these are extremely valuable and are as much the defining variables of UMC status as money, if not more so

  157. an observer

    Looking glass,

    No problem with calorie restricters wanting to live longer. I’d rather eat protein and tasty saturated fats than bland, tasteless grains any day.

    The okinawa style life of restricting total intake is a problem for me, as i like food. Perhaps the greater depression will address that little issue.

  158. UnicornHunter

    ….we’ll get the all-important A and Daddy will love us better.

    I tell my oldest daughter all the time that first, the odds of her actually using anything she learns in school beyond basic literacy and research skills in the work world in asymptotically approaching zero, secondly, a STEM degree gained by the skin of her teeth will be infinitely more valuable down the road than a lesser degree with a high GPA.

    Her mother is the one who will love her more if she gets perfect grades. I throw the responsibility for her grades and how well she does onto her shoulders and have been for a couple of years now.

  159. Novaseeker

    The thing about “UMCs” is that a goodly number of them did not grow up as UMCs. Of my friendset at my HYS college, none of us grew up UMC. Most were either MMCs or LMCs on some form of financial aid. Of course, there was a stratification at the place as well — the people who grew up UMC or UC tended to hang with each other, as did the people who grew up MMC/LMC. But the thing is, as *individuals*, they had drive. ambition, discipline and so on, even though they did NOT have money (yet). This group displays the same characteristics later in life in terms of stability and so on that the rest of the UMCs do, but tends to be more conservative in behavior during the younger years because they do not have the parental money cushion.

    My freshman year dormmate was on the borderline between high UMC and UC. And he displayed all the behaviors that tbc describes and then some. Cocaine spoons (sometimes with remains) on the bedside table. Lawn ornaments and signs would just show up in the room overnight due to some drunken rampage of stealing for kicks. Underage women regularly in the bed, even with me in there sleeping (or trying to). So, yes, many of them are a mess, but there are also the people who are coming *up* into the UMC who tend to behave differently because they don’t have that cushion.

  160. UnicornHunter

    @tbc – Staying UMC is easier than getting entry into UMC in the first place.

    Yep, I would agree with that. Or, as a coworker pointed out one time, once you hit the executive level, it’s hard to fall back into middle-management and he used as an illustrative example the CIO of pets.com who after doing an incredibly good job of spending money like a drunken sailor to no benefit, left to be CIO some where else.

  161. an observer

    es? What do you think are the optimal life goals and family formation strategies of people who are lower class or lower middle class?

    Working class people exist day to day. Life goals are for aspirationals. These people spend their time surviving, not sipping espressoes and bemoaning the palestinian issue.

    Education was touted as a path out of poverty. Since education is now a bubble, it no longer is. Forming a family for lower and working class types is not the planned sequence of the umc.

    And since government intervenes in every market, the consequences are different. Every lc/wc person that becomes welfare dependent is unlikely to progress from one demograhic to another.

  162. donalgraeme

    Somehow I’m always late to the party…

    Addressing the main point of this post:

    I do not think, given the current environment, that sending your daughter off to a University when she is done with High School or its equivalent is a smart move, unless she is married. There are a couple of reasons why this is the case.

    First, I am not sure that there are any college campuses left that present a non-hostile environment that are worth sending a daughter to. The feminization of colleges is absurd now, and even most of the Christian colleges are little better. Plus the carousel is a threat for any woman away from her family who doesn’t have a husband. The only times I have seen women escape it is by being recluses, and that doesn’t help with finding a husband at all.

    Second, If she wants to start a family, it is best to start it young, and having children really throws off the study schedule for 4 year colleges. It is far more cost effective for her to attend community college first, and then consider online courses before looking at a full 4 year college. Breaking away from a community college is much easier, and it is often possible to have classes at night or during more convenient times.

    Third, colleges aren’t a great place for women to find husbands like they used to be. Most colleges are intensely feminized, and do their best to suppress most men. Unfortunately, almost all of the ones who don’t get affected by the program tend to be the kind of men your daughter should have nothing to do with. Unless they had a Red Pill father, most men will need a few years out of college to mature and be in a position to be both a good father and husband.

    As for myself, I would like an intelligent wife, but educated women nowadays come with a ton of baggage. I always worry what they were doing there, and what their plans are. I have no problem marrying a smart women with only a HS diploma, or even less if she still has a good head on her shoulders.

    As for the problem you are facing SSM… well, I sympathize. The real issue here is Networking. I am sure that there are at least a few chaste young Christian women out there in the US, but finding them has been terribly difficult for me. Such women trying to find a good Christian husband face the same set of hurdles. Neither of us knows where to look. The Church (whether Protestant, Catholic or Orthodox) used to be a safe place, but not nearly as much any longer. Someone above mentioned a marriage focused website, but I’m not sure how much of a help a new one would be given how many Christian “dating” sites are out there. Honestly, this question is one that has been perplexing me for a while and I haven’t been able to answer to my satisfaction.

    [ssm: Yes, I agree with what you've written. I would vastly prefer that our daughters marry before pursuing a college degree. The trouble, as you say, is finding a spouse who is both Christian and aware of the issues we discuss here. Finding such people is like searching for the needle in the haystack.]

  163. Hannah

    My father had no respect for the pursuit of academic success that society idolizes. As a result, I felt no pressure to find my value in getting a degree, but instead in preparing to be a wife and mother.
    As parents of 2 girls and 2 boys (so far!), my husband and I are taking very purposeful steps to protect our children from liberalism, feminism, homosexuality and equality… as we see it as being counterproductive to living life according to the word of God.
    We homeschool our little ones, attend a very small ‘chapter by chapter, book by book’ church (as opposed to the seeker-friendly, experience based, hyper-grace variety), don’t allow left-wing propoganda to come into our home via television, and are living in proximity to our extended family to protect our own boundaries. We will steer our boys towards manliness, and our girls toward femininity.
    I would not presume for a moment that my children could survive in an anti-God environment for 4+ years without serious compromise.

    I have enjoyed Matthew King’s, Deti’s and Ray’s responses in many of your posts (and on Dalrock’s blog) Seems there is enough common sense in these replies to come to a sensible conclusion.
    .
    A woman succeeding in a male’s role will displace men and she will only ever be seen as a poor excuse of a man.
    A man attempting to succeed in the horror of today’s feminism will only ever be seen as a poor excuse of a woman. (thereby rendering him displaced.) Either way, traditional patriachy is being attacked.
    Women strive for equality because it’s not theirs. Men giving away what IS theirs is creating chaos.

    ‘All this talk about equality. The only thing people really have in common is that they are all going to die.’ Bob Dylan

    No wonder this world is becoming homosexual.

  164. Fearsome Pirate

    College is a terrible idea. Finishing school is a great idea. Unfortunately, finishing school largely doesn’t exist any more, since the modern feminist parents believe their daughters have failed as women if they learn etiquette and home ec.

  165. UnicornHunter

    @SC
    Maybe you are right. But, that being said, why would a conservative, ectomorphic, introverted high IQ/education/social class/income girl like me want a masculine alpha male? UMC men may be less muscular, violent, aggressive, assertive and more cerebral, braniac, patient, studious because it is how most UMC women want them to be. I am not a LMC guidette so I don’t want a LMC man who in the words of Snooki, is a “Tanned; guido; juicehead gorilla; big sense of humor; likes to party; fist-pumps.”

    I want somebody who is more or less like myself. Conservative, ectomorphic, introverted, high IQ/education/social class/income, comes from a nuclear family. Bonus points if he is a STEM nerd and has nerdy hobbies.

    =======================================================================
    I’m not sure that anyone wants the caricature you’ve described.

    I’ll try and explain better, but first a digression. Charles Murray in his book The Bell Curve makes an assertion that in the past, intelligence was more evenly distributed throughout the social classes, but that these days smart people are pulled up into the higher classes and that generally speaking, the lower classes are on average less intelligent that the upper classes.

    Quite a lot has been said about his assertion and I’m not going to get into that here. I’m only going to say that I think subject to the fact that it is a sweeping generalization, I think there is some level of truth in that assertion.

    My grandparents were not unintelligent, but part of the working class (coal mining and farming). As society changed, my stepdad’s father managed to move up from mining into more MMC work, while my maternal grandfather really only moved laterally into driving a truck.

    One difference I notice as you move up social classes is how physical violence diminishes and verbal and emotional violence takes it’s place. My experience has been that the people who eschew corporal discipline with their children seem to invariable engage in what is in my opinion, much more hurtful and harmful emotional and mental manipulation in order to gain compliance.

    I don’t know that my experience is necessarily broadly and generally true, but my ex’s extended family UMC all around engages in some right proper violence with words, but not fists, oh, and only when you’re not around.

    Thus, I think that the point I was trying to make is that it seems to me that generally speaking the hardcore blue-pill indoctrination is very much a SWPL/UMC phenomena more so than a WC/LMC one, thought that isn’t necessarily a universally true assertion. From that idea, it follows that the advice I would give to UMC parents of boys is that they should ensure that their sons at the very least spend time getting their hands dirty in the world.

    Just my B.S. opinion.

  166. UnicornHunter

    I’m not sure how to embed a video, but here’s a funny scared straight from the Daily Show.

  167. Bluedog

    Picked up my kid’s cold, spent 2 days in bed, drop back in here and there’s a whole new article and 171 comments. [hew! you folks are busy.

    Couple remarks:

    1. As we walked through the various bullet points of matters requiring settlement in my divorce, when we came to the question of alimony my (first) divorce attorney sat at her desk, looked across it at me and said “Blue, next time you get married, marry a professional”.

    2. Every relationship I have ever had with a woman where I have reckoned the relationship truly mutually rewarding, has been one were she could hold her own with me intellectually. In fact … and pay attention young men hearing positively the advice that it might not matter so much … in fact, in my 20s when I was single, I sensed there were several MARRIED women who kept me around, invited me over and out, a lot, specifically because they had married for other reasons, and the intellectual depth was so terribly lacking they had to fill the void some other way … thankfully I was an unright gent and didn’t take advantage of this

    3. One factor affecting the “professional” point from my attorney is that you notice she didn’t say “marry someone with a college degree” or “marry someone high IQ” … arguably, both of those are more likely to result in “professional”, but one guesses the correlation is stronger in the other direction: if professional – that is, professionally successful – it is because of critical underlying factors, likely related to intelligence and the possession of important virtues like foresight and persistence … of great importance though too – and to the point my attorney was making: her professional status leaves little difference in your relative incomes, meaning there will be little to zero possibility of an alimony award

    4. Coming off the last point is what Dalrock points out: your high income is actually a MOTIVATOR for divorce. On the other hand: it is not if incomes are approximately equal. So if you make $80K and her $70, … or you make $150K and she $130K … the difference is so small and so unlikely to result in a divorce bonus that it will not be a favor ADDING to other pressures she may feel to divorce. On the other hand, if she has a HS ed, or is an aesthetician or is in massage school – so put in your head the mentality of a hair stylist – now meanwhile you make $70K or $100K or $120K and she is unhappy, just read EPL and is looking with longing on the lifestyle of a nearby divorcee, then she has her own income, $30-40Kish … mostly won’t be taxed plus whatever assets she comes away in the divorce with plus years of alimony and maybe CS … oh and too – she knows you will probably be saddled with the debt if there is any … so in her mind she walks away with a single lifestyle maybe clearing $50K … that is way better than the oppression being married to you is worth

    5. People talk here about directing their daughters towards STEM carriers … I’m behind this but I would generalize it more to rigor. Rigor is the underlying ethic or virtue we’ve gotten away from. A degree in the humanities need not be a waste if she walks away having completed three semesters of calculus and able to read classical Latin and Greek. Training kids in rigor, boys and girls, begins early, I’d say at about age 4.

    6. The criss-cross that is always hard for me to sort out on this site is the intersection between larger-secular-culture and Christian-subculture. On the former – I would basically say that either professional, college-degree, or both are absolute pre-requisites … merely keys in the door. Other qualifications still stand. Among other reasons is this: in 2013 among seculars it is a question of values. My first values question is: do you understand that if you have children you are individually and severably 100% responsible for the children? That is: I am 100% responsible and you are 100% responsible and neither of us may be made into indentured servants to the other so that one may be the “primary caregiver”. A secular failing that test is utterly unmarriageable. If she hasn’t made herself vocationally capable of passing the test, she has already told you that she fails it. All of my experience with fellow non-Christians sustains this belief of mine and I have seen no counter-evidence of it at all. That may not be the case among Christians, you all would know more than me, but I can’t say.

  168. Lisa in Vermont

    I’m encouraging my daughters to go to college to get degrees PERIOD. If they find their husbands, I’d consider it a bonus.

    They’ve been raised with the expectation that they’ll attend college and have never questioned it. They are very driven, mostly straight-A students and my husband and I constantly monitor their grades through their school’s online parent communication system, which is updated daily. If a grade drops below a 3.5, or an assignment is missed, we bring it to their attention and stay after them until the situation is remedied. Nothing falls off our radar screen. We are aware of how much more competitive the college admissions process has become in recent years and want them to have the best chance of being accepted by their top-choice schools and winning generous financial aid packages.

    I was the first person in my family to attend college. It’s provided me with a multitude of opportunities that my high school educated parents lacked. They worked jobs they didn’t enjoy and barely scraped by financially. I’ve been able to make a comfortable living in a profession that’s interested me since I was a little girl. Essentially, I’ve spent my adult life getting paid for something I love to do. I consider it a great blessing.

    I want my daughters to have the same opportunities I’ve had, and more. One wants to be a doctor; the other an engineer. They both excel at STEM courses, so it appears they’re on the right path.

  169. anonymous

    The substantive basis for most (though not all) of UMC wealth is what is inherited, usually from parents who were also UMC or MC, and not just money but social access and social capital.

    You couldn’t possibly be more wrong about this. I’m going to charitably assume that you just don’t have any insider knowledge of the middle class, so I’m going to simply tell you the facts, on the assumption that your statement is an honest mistake rather than a politically motivated intentional lie (as such statements USUALLY are).

    Anyway…. Almost all MCs and UMCs descend from POOR (and I mean, actually hungry, actually cold — NOT “relatively poor”) ancestors, just 1 or 2 generations ago. They worked their @$$e$ off to get out of it and they saved/scrimped/delayed gratification/invested to STAY out of it. All those 14 hour workdays pay off.

    Their kids or grandkids are told around the dinner table, the horror stories of poverty, and what it took to get out of it. And THAT is the only “social capital” they receive, or need.

    80% of millionaires in the USA are first generation. The usual pattern is, a man makes a fortune, his kids maintain it, the grandkids blow it all. Long term inherited wealth is EXCEEDINGLY rare. For reasons I won’t go into, I (arguably LUMC) have occasion to rub shoulders with decamillionaires and I know their stories. The idea that UC or UMC people usually inherit their wealth, is just plain untrue.

    Although it suits certain political agendas to PRETEND that…..

    [ssm: I 100% agree with you. The UMC is made up of people who work really hard. Sometimes they come from UMC stock, but sometimes not. My husband's family was hard-working MC; my family was poor. We are able to live a reasonably comfortable life because we have worked hard and made the decision not to spend all our money on expensive vacations and constant house upgrades. Perhaps there is more inherited wealth among the UC, but not the UMC. And "social access" tends to be a code word for that phantom menace, "white privilege". My parents were poor because they made horrible choices. Most poor people in the USA in this day and age are poor because of their own bad decisions, not because of some nebulous "social capital" bogyman.]

  170. Anonymoose

    My field is applied mathematics, and I do analysis in STEM areas, primarily physics and biology, so I have had an opportunity to observe many different environments.

    A STEM education is the last bastion of actual objectivity in academia, but it is not trivial. To do it professionally often requires competence in mathematics or chemistry, and women tend not to have the mental predisposition, or the interest, to pursue this to the necessary extent. Blowjobs can get a woman through college, but they won’t keep a bridge from collapsing.

    Even computer engineering requires physics at one end of the spectrum, and discrete mathematics at the other end. This is absent in some areas and levels of computer programming, database management, system administration, and so on, but these are often the first jobs to be outsourced. However, as soon as you get into critical programming, like avionics, or higher levels of computer science, mathematics reappears.

    Unlike business, law, medicine, and so on, the evaluation criteria in most STEM areas are strictly objectively measurable and do not allow for much fudging. The few girls who enjoy science and mathematics don’t need to be pushed in this direction, and the rest should carefully consider if fields with minimal subjectivity would be right for them.

    My education and IQ are higher than most, and I have always looked for a bright girl, but higher education was never a selection criterion. Education cannot make anyone smart, but it does a spectacular job of making stupid people annoying and dangerous.

    Not only was higher education never a selection criterion, but the less educated women started ending up at the top of my list, because I noticed an inverse correlation between the level of education and all of the qualities that I found desirable.

    The worst are the “career women” in airport lounges, who always want to brag about some legal case or big financial deal, as if I would be interested in a manly woman. Normally I tend to be aloof, but when that happens, I call over the youngest waitress with the biggest smile and find ways to talk about how smart she is, until the “twat professional” stomps off in a huff, and then I always leave a huge tip.

    My green-eyed redhead was home-schooled and never went to college, but is one of the brightest (in mind and spirit) women that I have ever met. Thinking about how I found her still makes me smile.

    I had just entered one of the large healthy food stores that seem to be springing up everywhere, and I was pushing my cart toward the produce side, when I noticed that the women on that side of the store were being particularly rude to their men. I remember thinking “I hope that all this bad ju-ju hasn’t wilted the lettuce”, when I rounded the corner and first saw her.

    Her hair was the most amazing shade of dark red, and went almost down to her waist. She had brilliant green eyes, and freckles, lots and lots of freckles that went as far as I could see, so I was pretty sure that connect-the-dots could be played in all of the fun places.

    She had on no makeup, eyeshadow, lipstick, fingernail polish … absolutely nothing. Her legs were bare, and her summer dress was made of a thin and filmy fabric that came down almost to her simple, flat and open sandals.

    When she walked, her butt would grab the fabric, pull it toward the center, and then let it go. Left right, tick toc, just like a metronome. It was so hypnotic that I almost ran into her before I realized that she had stopped.

    When I looked up, she was looking at me with the young Gabrielle Anwar’s amused smile in the Tango Scene from the movie “Scent of a Woman” *

    I was caught by surprise, so the only thing that I could think of to say was the truth: “I saw how the other women were glaring at you, so I was protecting your butt from eye daggers. It was such exhausting work that I deserve a reward. I will buy the groceries, but you have to make the picnic basket.”

    She gave me a tittering little laugh, and then said: “I would love to, but first, if you don’t mind, … [wait for ... The Sign] … I would like to stop in next door to buy a few things for my sister’s dog.” [This is related to my two comments in /2013/04/28/traditionalist-marriage-versus-christian-marriage-exemplifies-selfish-rebellion-versus-selfless-obedience/]

    And some people think that God doesn’t have a sense of humor!

    * This is the best scene from the movie in which Al Pacino won an Oscar, and nicely illustrates non-thug alpha behavior. This version has Korean subtitles, but it was the only one that I could find with almost the entire eight and a half minute scene: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlpHcQC2O6w

  171. Bluedog

    Anonymous,
    re: “The substantive basis for most (though not all) of UMC wealth is what is inherited, usually from parents who were also UMC or MC, and not just money but social access and social capital.”

    “You couldn’t possibly be more wrong about this. I’m going to charitably assume…”

    Slow down. You are running tried libertarian spin here.

    My two generations old immigrant grandparents made it from sh**-poor to what passes for MC in the urban cities. I am related by way of a relation I have another ancestral connection that made their way from sh**-poor to what passes for MC by way of the Homestead Act.

    Both (really, all 3) of these cases are REPRESENTATIVE of what gave rise the the MC in late 19th/early-20th century America.

    Yes – they worked like dogs – HOWEVER – there were several forces in place that made their economic rise possible. (1) Social welfare. Yes – the government just flat out giving you 160 acres – social welfare like none other (2) a balance between Capital (big C) and Labor … there were several forces that created that balance the most important of which was a free MARKET – that is – a free LABOR market within the borders of the US.

    In the decades since the 1950s we have (1) neutered organized labor (arguably it neutered itself, but the outcome is the same either way and, arguable worse: (2) we have replaced the national free labor market with international free trade, which is basically protectionism for Big C Capitalists who are free to take capital anywhere labor is cheapest, while labor in all places is stuck at the border. Obviously the Homestead Act is ancient history.

    On account of this, I am sorry, but liberal economists have a point and it behooves libertarians to concede the occasional point without going all ad-hominem and yelling “socialist” if they wish to be taken seriously as intellectually honest which at this point of Ayn Randian fundamentalism is woefully unlikely.

    But in generations past, because of Capital/Equity made available to labor through the government (Homestead) AND because of a free labor market, AND because all of this gave labor choices and options that forced Capital to treat labor equitably … it was possible to work like a dog, change your class status, and make it.

    It remains possible – but it has become woefully rare – the DISTANCE between rungs on the socio-economic ladder become more impassable every day. I don’t just argue theoretically on this point – I am watching close up as precisely this happens.

    Comes down to this: it costs MONEY for people to raise from one class to another. Capitalists, i.e.: people WITH money, don’t like paying it. Since they don’t, and since there is no threat from the USSR anymore to scare them into making common cause with labor, they have systematically dismantled the very free market protections that once made class-movement so common in the US.

    But find me a libertarian economist who can be coherent about this. They can say “bankster” and “corporate communism” but they just can’t make their own thoughts cohere into something consistent.

    Not saying you are all wrong. Just saying – slow down – you may not know as much as you think. WE, my family, we’ve made it to UMC, thank God. I am crazy-time on my kids on education so they have a fighting chance of staying there. But you know: that in itself is a form of “inherited wealth” … a dad that gets that you’d better be bi-lingual, have straight-As, master your STEM and understand an integral by the age of 12 – that ethic alone, in a parent, is an inherited wealth. Make sure your ideology accounts for the fact that not all children are so blessed, but they do grow up and we all have to contend with the outcome, if we are Labor, and not Capital, that is. When I volunteer in their classes and tutor other kids it’s pretty clear that in large numbers other parents’ haven’t gotten the message.

    [ssm: But you have completely ignored the largest cause of poverty in this country: out-of-wedlock child birth. And that is always a choice.]

  172. Farm Boy

    Most poor people in the USA in this day and age are poor because of their own bad decisions

    Agreed. Today’s poverty is more about attitudes and behaviors than it is about lack of money.

    [ssm: And a little bit of it is also because of indoctrination, too. If you tell people they are poor because someone else has been holding them down, they will never learn to take any responsibility for their actions; they will always just blame it on the imaginary person who is holding them down.]

    [ssm: By the way, did you read the email? Do you hate me now? The suspense...it kills me.]

  173. Bluedog

    “But you have completely ignored the largest cause of poverty in this country: out-of-wedlock child birth. And that is always a choice.”

    It’s just not what I’m talking about. I would like to think that my presence here and the substance of the comments I make would project that I’m attuned to that and care deeply about it.

    But … economics operates on opposing forces seeking equilibrium. Equilibrium between labor and capital generated a good deal for hard-working labor when capital had the same boundaries as labor – that is a free market. Free trade expands the boundaries for capital but keeps them static for labor. The result is absolutely mathematically predictable and is now the empirical outcome of the last 35 years: higher concentration of capital at the top, with progressively less capital available to those at the bottom, no matter how hard they work or how virtuous they are.

    I am for virtue. I’m also for a fair system. Small-c capitalists who actually by all rights and logic and actual facts of class-status in the real world, have been sold a bill of goods that anything not towing a big-C capitalist (a.k.a.: “banksters”) line is to be a wicked socialist collectivist.

    My mission is to get people to stop listening to Ayn Rand and go to the source: Adam Smith and David Ricardo. Then maybe afterwards take a 101 course in macroeconomics. Few libertarians would survive the exercise.

    If you can afford to “enjoy the fall”, congratulations, you are a “big C” capitalist. Otherwise – you’re labor, but the big-Cs have been working triple time to keep you from realizing it.

  174. UnicornHunter

    @Blue and anon
    Here is my view from the cheap seats and no longer quite so cheap seats.

    A friend of mine referring to Ruby Payne’s book A Framework For Understanding Poverty http://www.amazon.com/Framework-Understanding-Poverty-Ruby-Payne/dp/1929229488 pointed out that the lower class band together because they don’t have the resources to go it alone. The middle class cling to the rugged individualist ideal, and the upper class are exclusionary and help each other out to keep others out.

    Thus, moving from the lower class to the middle class seems to primarily involve discipline regarding delayed gratification, longer time horizons and human capital development. I suspect it’s more difficult for the less disciplined and less intelligent to change class than for those with more discipline and intelligence.

    At the same time, I’ve heard, anecdotally that it’s much more difficult to break into the upper class because while money is part of the equation, growing up in the right social sphere seems to be a big part of things there too, thus the distinction between new money and old money.

    Of course, I could be completely off base as I’m not even close to the upper class.

    Lastly, I found there was a significant difference in the import of social circle between the coasts. On the East coast, social networks were huge and competence was somewhat less of a consideration. Whereas on the West coast, competence seems to be the primary determinant while social circle is less important.

  175. Hannah

    The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding. Proverbs 9v10

    This is what I’d be wanting my children to look for in a partner… somebody growing in wisdom – leaving the idolising of intellectualism to the liberals.

    The question that is posed with women needing to marry someone close or above to their IQ is, in my opinion, formed from feminism.
    Granted, in a world that emotional intelligence is supreme – women might appear to be smarter than the average guy. But in a traditional Godly patriachal society…. I’d suggest that ANY man is smarter than the woman. If nothing else, he has reason and logic that the woman will be missing. (something I struggled against for years but am now perfectly content to admit!)

    Sunshine Mary, like your daughter, I’m very much a strong-willed girl too…. I remember taping the ‘Children’s Bill of Rights’ up on my door several times throughout my childhood! (only to have my dad tear it down again!)
    I remember reading what I think was a good book about dad’s being the strongman that HAS to get in the way of his daughter and the world…. It’s called ‘Strong Fathers, Strong Daughters’ by Meg Meekers.
    I needed to have clear instructions, boundaries and consequences. Sure, I’d try to ‘reason’ my way around most things, but I respected my father (and my husband too) when he didn’t give in to me.
    Through reading my bible and recognising that much of my behaviour as a ‘strong-willed’ girl is just sinful and therefore needs to be repented of… I am far more submissive these days :)
    I remember reading a relationship advice column once years ago that suggested the worst thing to do with a ‘leader’ type husband (mine) was to submit to them!!! How ludicrous, how anti-God, and what a dreadful outcome to the relationship of the woman that follows worldly advice.
    Any man can be the one to tame his wife (or daughter) if he doesn’t allow society to dictate him otherwise.

  176. sunshinemary

    @ anonymoose

    Blowjobs can get a woman through college, but they won’t keep a bridge from collapsing.

    This comment made me laugh and reminds me of a classic comment from David Collard to a Christo-feminist who showed up at Dalrock’s last summer:

    I respect your returning to continue the conversation, Melissa, but don’t give yourself airs by condescending to men. I belong to the sex that gave the world Beethoven, Shakespeare and Einstein. Your sex wears string bikinis and gives blowjobs.

    Melissa was not amused, but that comment still makes me laugh.

    Education cannot make anyone smart, but it does a spectacular job of making stupid people annoying and dangerous.

    Boy, if that ain’t the truth…it pretty much sums up how feminism was able to germinate and spread like a weed in the garden of male-female relations.

    I“I saw how the other women were glaring at you, so I was protecting your butt from eye daggers. It was such exhausting work that I deserve a reward. I will buy the groceries, but you have to make the picnic basket.”

    That was the best story ever! I assume she agreed to the picnic. But did she wear the collar??

    By the way, your dog collar story has become legendary around here. I tried to convince my husband to buy me one. He said no. le sigh

  177. Cail Corishev

    I remember as a somewhat poor kid going to school with wealthy kids how appalled I was (this was in high school) at how undisciplined, dissolute, and reckless these kids were. They had drinking parties, drove drunk, smoked pot — basically did all the things we “poor inner-city kids” were accused of doing, but all showed up nice and shiny on picture day, graduated and went to top schools — where they mostly continued in the same foolishness.

    That’s kinda the point, though: because they have better future time orientation and self-control and more ability to generate wealth, they can discard that self-control for a while and recover from it when they need to. As you say, they’re able to show up “nice and shiny on picture day.” Their lower-class counterparts living the same party lifestyle are more likely to fail to show up the next morning, and end up expelled or fired.

  178. sunshinemary

    By the way, did anyone notice that when Viva La Manosphere linked this article, they used a picture of Jupiter? Someone there has a sense of humor.

  179. FuzzieWuzzie

    For right now, I would say that going to college for the Mrs degree is not a good idea. By definition, it’s sexually hostile enviornment for men and it’s only going to get worse. However, SSM, your daughters have the advantage of a time horizon. By the time for college, hopefully, things will have changed for the better.
    What I imagine happening, in the near future, is that some femminist will do something so mind boggling stupid that the mainstream media will have a field day with it and the whole thing will collapse from unpoularity.
    On your old blog, Rollo made a one line comment that, in essence, predicted its death. He asserted that it was contrary to the female imperative. When that sinks into blue pill consciousness, it’s all over.
    It will take a while to repair all the damage.

  180. Ceer

    @ SSM, the OP

    My reaction is complex. On one hand, a good man may, reasonably, use schooling as a proxy for intelligence, and intelligence as a proxy for morality. I would have probably made a similar mistake, especially given the actions of certain trailer trash women.

    Now that I’m more red-pill, I’ve experienced firsthand the kind of elitist BS prevalent among young women today. In retrospect, their behavior isn’t totally irrational. I’ve always believed young women need to be trained to handle relationships (just like men do). I don’t just know why, I’ve FELT why. It’s not enough for young women to be educated about men. They have to be educated in the proper way. She has to learn about her own attraction triggers, what qualities she wants/should want in a man, and how to look for those qualities.

    The typical girl leans that she should be focusing on her career/independence first, following her instincts/heart second, and given little other information. When they first get to college, they see what can be described as a torrent of attention. It comes from a variety of sources. Here, they experience lots of flirting from men with all sorts of different end goals (alpha/beta, or a mix). Without training, they rely on their instincts, which are much better at sensing congruence and social dominance. Typically, they will mistake these as the indicators of “honest” attention.

    When a woman receives too much flirtation, it’s tempting to be rude. Giving into this temptation will lead to trouble. Betas will take rudeness as evidence that they committed an etiquette violation. In extreme cases, they’ll start to understand that women hate his caring nature and resolve to be a jerk. Alphas will plow and hold state. From a man’s perspective, any time he’s hitting on her, it means some sort of sexual interest. This is almost never dishonest. Rudeness in response can only do damage.

    As a man, when I see a woman who can’t be bothered to be civil to me, I see something morally wrong with them.

  181. Bluedog

    UH,
    I suspect many of those generalizations hold water but they are currents not the ocean. Also I observe and there is good data to support that MC especially are prone to recall strongly their own efforts and take for granted quickly the contributions of their families, communities, access to opportunity, unions, laws, the state, etc. And when those institutions are strong the negligence wil go unnoticed but given enough time there is cannibalization of the forces that made hard work such an industious enterprise. We are pretty far down that road. Too much negligence and too little credit is taking its toll everywhere you look.

    MC need each other more than anyone else. No amount of help may change the chronic underclass. To not need others is what it means to be UC. They are one in the same thing. We who are MC need each other but UC who don’t need us or care about us are everywhere to encourage us that it our fortune was due to our yoke alone.

  182. happyhen11

    “But in generations past, because of Capital/Equity made available to labor through the government (Homestead) AND because of a free labor market, AND because all of this gave labor choices and options that forced Capital to treat labor equitably … it was possible to work like a dog, change your class status, and make it.”

    US big L labor overplayed their hand and LOST.

    Labor has always and always will have the weaker hand and considering only 13% of workers now are unionized and the utter collapse of manufacturing in the US, that number will never rise again. Even all things being equal and neither side having manipulated public policy via “in your pocket” politicians to make it’s hand stronger, American labor will always have the weaker hand in a global environment because almost all manufacturing can now be done easier, more efficiently, and cheaper elsewhere: more labor, labor is more easily trained, labor is more willing, labor works harder, government restrictions are less tedious, and labor and resources are cheaper. Not realizing this doomed American big L labor. Unless you plan to actively tariff, tax, and restrict the profits of corporations who do business in the US and elsewhere into the dust (that would be redistribution of wealth btw), which has proven time and again to be fruitless and in the end detrimental due to the massive mobility of capital in the hands of those smart enough to run successful companies, there isn’t much a “why isn’t the world fair /huff, puff, stomp feet” economist can do. The capital-riskers, those who have the capital to build the factories that make the widgets , and employ all that labor, by the very laws of economics, should at all times hold more power if for no other reason than they have more responsibility due to more risk. Equality of labor and capital-riskers is silly, utopian nonsense that can only be facilitated by corrupt government mandate. The “equality of benefits but not responsibility” mentality is wrong and has brought about the downfall of this nation, much more so than the oft touted “inequality” of capital.

    This whole argument really is no different than the one we have here often, that being why fathers and husbands should have more power in the family. They risk more everyday, take on more responsibility, and bear the brunt of that responsibility more keenly than do their wives. The only way that equality of benefits but not responsibility can be mandated is through government interference and THAT is just what we have seen.

  183. nightskyradio

    I spent my early 20s broke as a joke, and there was a short stretch there where I wasn’t sure I would eat from one day to the next. Some bad luck, some of it was bad choices on my part (I remember choosing one job over another and fucked myself up so bad I couldn’t do much of anything for a month… but most of my other bad choices were just the stupidity of youth).

    All this to say I spent several years living in a lower class neighborhood. I observed rather quickly that most people there didn’t have an attitude because they were poor (as I had always thought, and been told), but they were poor because they had an attitude.

    SSM – If you tell people they are poor because someone else has been holding them down, they will never learn to take any responsibility for their actions; they will always just blame it on the imaginary person who is holding them down

    Saw some of that too. But there was a lot of an entitlement mentality (I’m owed this govt. money, etc.) and just pure laziness more than victim mentality. But this was back in the 90s – the victim mindset has been pushed aggressively since the Clinton years and may be more common now.

    I also find it difficult to feel all that sorry for most “poor” people, the way poverty is defined now. It’s tough to feel sympathetic for people with Blu-Ray players, high speed internet, and decent-to-nice cars. As Walter E. Williams* has said, “if I were an unborn spirit, condemned to a life of poverty, but God allowed me to choose which nation I wanted to be poor in, I’d choose the United States. Our poor must be the envy of the world’s poor.”

    Bluedog – higher concentration of capital at the top, with progressively less capital available to those at the bottom, no matter how hard they work or how virtuous they are.

    I would suggest that a fair amount of that has to do with government interference (red tape, taxes, cronyism) instead of a cabal of Rich People holding on to their money tightly.

    Free trade expands the boundaries for capital but keeps them static for labor

    That’s because for the most part the value of labor IS static at best, and always declining at worst. Warren Meyer explains why labor isn’t the source of wealth (and also points out where a lot of capitalists get it wrong, too) –

    …the true source of wealth is not brute labor, or even what you might call brute capital, but the mind. The mind creates new technologies, new products, new business models, new productivity enhancements, in short, everything that creates wealth. Labor or capital without a mind behind it is useless.

    From the year 1000 to the year 1700, the world’s wealth, measured as GDP per capita, was virtually unchanged. Since 1700, the GDP per capita in places like the US has risen, in real terms, over 40 fold. This is a real increase in total wealth – it is not money stolen or looted or exploited. Wealthy nations like the US didn’t “take” the wealth from somewhere else – it never even existed before. It was created by the minds of human beings.

    How? What changed? Historians who really study this stuff would probably point to a jillion things, but in my mind two are important:

    There was a philosophical and intellectual change where questioning established beliefs and social patterns went from being heresy and unthinkable to being acceptable, and even in vogue. In other words, men, at first just the elite but soon everyone, were urged to use their mind rather than just relying on established beliefs
    There were social and political changes that greatly increased the number of people capable of entrepreneurship. Before this time, the vast vast majority of people were locked into social positions that allowed them no flexibility to act on a good idea, even if they had one. By starting to create a large and free middle class, first in the Netherlands and England and then in the US, more people had the ability to use their mind to create new wealth. Whereas before, perhaps 1% or less of any population really had the freedom to truly act on their ideas, after 1700 many more people began to have this freedom.
    So today’s wealth, and everything that goes with it (from shorter work hours to longer life spans) is the result of more people using their minds more freely.

    Full post here – http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2004/12/60_second_refut.html

    Without capital and the knowledge to invest it well, all the labor in the world doesn’t amount to much beyond basic subsistence.

    *Side note bringing things back to the original topic, sort of – Williams also wrote “What do you think distinguishes the high and low poverty populations? The only statistical distinction between both the black and white populations is marriage. There is far less poverty in married-couple families, where presumably at least one of the spouses is employed. Fully 85 percent of black children living in poverty reside in a female-headed household.”

    http://www.creators.com/opinion/walter-williams/are-the-poor-getting-poorer.html

    Sounds like an endorsement of the MRS degree.

  184. nightskyradio

    Anonymoose – Blowjobs can get a woman through college, but they won’t keep a bridge from collapsing.

    I knew I shoulda been a pervfesser…

  185. Anonymoose

    SSM,

    “That was the best story ever! I assume she agreed to the picnic. But did she wear the collar??”

    We went on the picnic and she did wear the collar. With her, it was the fifth and last time that I have done that, and everything happened in an easy but surreal sort of way.

    Only one of the other women had refused and stormed out of the store, but her reaction was so disjointed that there had to have been something else that was, or had been, going on in her life. The rest of the women had resisted and protested enough to satisfy their hamsters, and then strutted out while smirking at the other women in the store.

    But with the last one, The Keeper, it was completely different.

    I selected a collar, and handed it to her, while looking directly into her eyes and saying: “I want you to put this on”. She closed her eyes, and then I counted her small chest rise and fall seven times *. I remember being quite relaxed, even though she was the first one since forever whose decision would actually matter, but the only thought that entered my mind was: “I will never let her get implants”.

    Then her eyes opened and she said: “I want you to do this”. She handed the collar back to me, passed her hands up and over her head, lifted her hair, and then a dreamy look came over her face. And that was that. She sort of floated out of the store, and from that point on, it was as if we had always been together.

    “By the way, your dog collar story has become legendary around here. I tried to convince my husband to buy me one. He said no. le sigh”

    Well, you could always give him a couple of options.

    I broke my “never buy jewelry” rule, when I bought a pearl collar for her. Mikimoto no longer makes collar-type pearl chokers, so I had a jeweler make one using gold strands and pearls of several different colors, with an attached small gold leash. It is a very subtle design, so you have to look closely and think about it, to realize what it is.

    She wears it when we play dress-up and go to formal functions, and the reactions of women can be hilarious. Many are oblivious, some blush, some glare at me, and once the wife of our host kept staring at it and licking her lips.

    So you can tell your husband that my Original Way is much less expensive, even with an optional BeDazzler.

    * “Lord Takanobu said, ‘if discrimination is long, it will spoil’. … When your mind is going hither and thither, discrimination will never be brought to a conclusion. With an intense, fresh and undelaying spirit, one will make his judgements within the space of seven breaths. It is a matter of being determined and having the spirit to break right through to the other side.” [Tsunetomo Yamamoto, "Hagakure: The Book of the Samurai", translated by William Scott Wilson]

  186. tbc

    since I brought up the issue of inherited wealth and social capital, allow me to clarify (as my anecdote was meant to do).

    As I said, some people are chronically and generationally poor — they generally lack self-control and self-discipline, don’t show up for work etc. Such traits may be more common in LC but they are also more costly there as well. The poor kid who has an off day, or weak, or stays up too late the night before an exam does not likely have parents who will hustle to get him out of that rut, buy him SAT prep sessions etc., no matter how smart the kid is. The UMC kid who does the same does have parents who will do all that and more. So it isn’t that the UMC kids in my school were the ones who necessarily exercised self-control to get up nice and shiny on picture day, but their parents. The poor kids parents were either unconcerned, unaware, and sometime unconscious.

    When I say inherited wealth and social access I don’t mean anything large necessarily. It may be as small as a second hand car given by WC parents to their kid which gives them sudden access to more part-time job opportunities, or a relationship with Mrs. so and so who can help the kid fill out his FAFSA application when the parents have never even been to college, or who gives him a part-time job in an office, or any number of small, usually insignificant things in themselves but which cumulatively make a big difference in terms of access to education, work and other things leading to UMC status. The enterprising disciplined kid of WC parents who has these things is far more likely to parley them into UMC status than the same kid of poor parents. But the kid of the poor parents will likely move into the WC/MC by virtue of his discipline and entrepreneurship, and his kids will likely end up being UMC.

    That is the point I’m making. Moving from poverty to UMC usually doesn’t happen in a single generation, but over 2-3 generations. And the qualities that enabled that 2-3 generational movement are not simply inherited, but socially and culturally reinforced.

    I’m not talking in abstractions. I experienced this personally. By the time I was born, my decidedly working class parents had the wherewithal to send me to a private elementary school, which I was able to capitalize on to go to a better high school, where I was exposed to opportunities I would not have otherwise and that my siblings were not exposed to. So it isn’t surprising that my siblings and I literally can be placed on an upward curve in terms of status based on when we were born and the income/ status of our parents at the time. I’m the smartest (they would all agree) but I also had the most opportunity to capitalize on my smarts — even though we all grew up with the same married, stable, working class high-school educated parents.

  187. sunshinemary Post author

    Egad, this thread went all 50 Shades of Gray over night. Keep it PG, people! Or head over to the Married Man Sex Life Forums; they have some pretty frank conversations there.

    By the way, now that everyone thinks I am a freak…I am jesting about wanting a dog collar (well, mostly). Bondage isn’t my thing, but if you’re married and into that, Red Pill Wifey’s last couple of posts may be of interest to you.

    And on a side note, I’d like to reiterate something I said last fall when the whole A-sex War broke out at Samson’s Jawbone and spilled over to several other blogs; the Bible appears to offer a remarkable amount of freedom for married couples. It’s incredibly specific on many aspects of sex and morality, but on marital intimacy it is mostly silent. God did not “forget” to include anything He wanted us to know in the Bible, so it appears that married couples can use their own discretion (other than obvious no-nos that would involve bringing porn or other people to the marriage bed).

  188. Looking Glass

    @TBC:

    Social connections are always valuable: whether in high society or a tribal commune in the middle of Africa.

    Still, it’s values, self-control and a knowledge of “what’s effective” that’s the big keys. The issues, for the modern economies, going forward is that it’s “what system do you know how to exploit?” that will get you ahead. That’s a bad place to be.

    On Anonymoose’s dog collar story:

    I somehow missed that when it was first posted, but I had seen people chat about it. I think it’s utterly brilliant, but it can only be done from a dominant frame position. But, in the modern culture, that would work wonders.

    As much as the Feminists would recoil, publicly, in horror at the it, the truth of the matter is that most Men treat their possessions really well. The higher you go, to a point, for economic standing, the better taken care of they are. (Households that make 100k+ are the most likely to use coupons, as an instance of this trend) Guys like to keep what they own in good working condition. Why would we not want our women to get the same level of treatment?

    The issue is that properly caring for a Woman in your life that isn’t submissive to your authority is just asking for it all to be taken as supplication. So establishing the relative positioning, at the outset, is one of the biggest keys. This is also one of the reasons that Anonymoose feels like taking care of her even more.

    Oh, and choker/collars have been high Female fashion for on 500 years, so it’s not like it’s even out of sorts. It’s only a matter of having actually bought it at a pet store. That isn’t BDSM or even feigning that way, it’s proxy frame checking.

  189. Looking Glass

    @SSM:

    I find it funny you keyed in on the few sexually charged issues, when a near Economic Theory war is brewing. Haha.

    [ssm: Typical woman, I am.]

  190. nightskyradio

    SSM – Keep it PG, people! Or head over to the Married Man Sex Life Forums; they have some pretty franks conversations there

    Frank’s conversation? You sure he’s up for that? ;)

    [ssm: Ha, thanks for catching that! I fixed it. Too little coffee...]

    LG – On Anonymoose’s dog collar story… I had seen people chat about it. I think it’s utterly brilliant, but it can only be done from a dominant frame position. But, in the modern culture, that would work wonders

    Unless it’s pink and sparkly, I’m told.

  191. Ton

    I forgot to mention, my daughter has a degree (speech therapy) but never worked in that field. She decided to remain a personal trainer, and meet her captain at the gym. You can bet the boy did not notice her schooling before her beauty.

  192. Elspeth

    Didn’t read the whole thread. Too long. I think it is worth considering that a girl an attend college without packing up and leaving her parents’ authority and influence. This is the path we are taking. Unless one is going into a STEM field, the paper is worth a lot even if it comes from a local state university. One of my girls got a scholarship to a very good private liberal arts school (it’s costing us very little almost nothing). The other two are going to Local U. We are not incuring debt.

    Because the current economy is so different from that of our parents, I agree with Driver Suz, Some wives end up needing to support their husbands, even if it’s temporarily.

  193. Looking Glass

    One reminder:

    The SAHM is pretty much an industrial-age invention of the Upper Class, starting around the 1890s. Before that, even of the upper class, the women worked outside of the home at about a 70% rate. (Obviously, very different work; quite a lot of it probably Church related, but they weren’t really “stay at home” wives)

    In the era where physical labor could have a multiplicative effectiveness, the benefit was to have the Men at work and the Women at home in the middle to upper classes. This really only changed in the middle class starting in the 1970s because of the rise of middle management and the start of “knowledge” workers as a larger force. As the economy was in a rapid shift into Service work, opportunities available to the less fiscally and mentally able simply arose.

    That allows a 2-income household to jump an entire Income Bracket, which is the reason they do it. Minus the fact that unless both are making greater than 1.5x the local median, it’s rarely cost-positive. Especially with children around.

  194. sunshinemary

    I’m sure we all want to know Jezebel’s spin on all this:
    Moms Don’t ‘Opt Out’ of Work Because They’re Super Wealthy

    Also, a couple of comments from the thread there stood out to me:

    MishaBisha:

    I married a lawyer, and I’m a stay-at-home mom. So I’m one of those silk clad layabouts who chooses to stay at home because it’s the easy option. Except I’m not. I don’t sit around updating facebook all day, I treat parenting like what it is – a full time job. I had a baby because I wanted to raise a child and because I genuinely believe that she is better off being raised by me than by a stranger. I’m sure that’s going to piss some people off, but I’m really bored of being told that I’ve made the easy choice. I have a Master’s Degree and could easily get an interesting, lucrative job, but as far as I’m concerned I already have one. It just doesn’t come with a paycheck. I am also fully aware of how lucky I am to be able to make the choice to stay home.

    And I am, actually, “totally fulfilled without that burdensome social construct of productive activity we benignly call a “career””. I had a career. It paid well. I don’t miss it. It took awhile to get used to not having external validation from coworkers, but I got there. Perhaps I’ve misinterpreted this sentence, but it seems to me the author is suggesting that looking after a child is not productive activity. That is something I find highly offensive. I’m going to turn out one hell of an awesome human being and I’m going to have done it by my own (to quote the tiny human) and that to me is more important that having someone give me a thumbs up in my annual appraisal.

    I realize that what I’ve said above is not the case for most women. It isn’t the case for any of my friends, all of whom have gone back to work. And I completely respect their decision to work. I respect the sacrifices they have chosen to make and I’m glad I have friends who respect the sacrifices I’m making. I’ve also realized that every single one of us second guesses our choices. My friends feel guilty for putting their babies in daycare. I worry that my daughter will grow up and tell me that I was an awful feminist role model and she wishes I was like Auntie X who is an equity partner somewhere and not just a housewife. I also worry that if I decide to go back to work in a few years I’m going to be so far outside of what’s going on that my bosses are going to be half my age.

    So I guess what I’m trying to say with my rant is that I am a feminist housewife who is opting out because I want to devote myself to raising my child. That’s me. Feminist housewife. We exist!

    fruehling

    Ditto here. I could work, but we make enough as it is. We’re not rich, but we are comfortable. Childcare is subsidized where we live (Germany), so I could go to work and we would be very well off if I did (double our income), but I am completely fulfilled by being a stay at home mom. My 8 years of college and grad school weren’t wasted. They made me who I am today. I also approach homemaking as my career and I very much enjoy it AND find it just as stimulating or more stimulating – no tedious meetings – than my “job” was.

    What I find interesting about these women’s comments is that it is all about them. They feel fulfilled, they are glad to get out of a tedious job, they find being at home “stimulating.”

    First of all, there is no indication that they appreciate their husbands for the sacrifices they are making.

    Second, they both point out that they don’t regret their educations, even though they are now happy housewives; they don’t seem to feel any remorse that they used someone’s money to pay for school and took someone else’s admissions spot. These women appear to have no gratitude at all.

    Third, they still want to be able to call themselves feminists, they just don’t want to be feminists.

    This reminds me of Dalrock’s post Playing career woman:

    What he is describing aren’t women who work primarily to support themselves and their family, but women who use their education and career as a way to check off the box to prove their feminist credentials before settling down into an entirely traditional role [...]

    Lastly, the status Escoffier is talking about depends on the woman being able to claim she really wanted to be a career woman, but was somehow drafted into the stay at home mom role by her husband and children. It allows her to both frame herself as a feminist and a victim of the patriarchy, all while enjoying the benefits of the traditional role she really wanted all along.

  195. Elspeth

    I have to correct you there Mary, on this part:

    Third, they still want to be able to call themselves feminists, they just don’t want to be feminists.

    Oh, they are not simply calling themselves feminist. They certainly are feminists, in every sense of the word. Being a SAHM mother doesn’t make one a traditional woman any more than a woman can be both a father and a mother, despite that ludicrous and oft-repeated refrain uttered by single mothers.

    The fact that their husbands are mere appendages that enable them to do what they most want is the definition of feminist.

    I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of the book Radical Homemakers, but I think you should check it out. Written by a staunchly feminist woman, it explores the benefits of homemaking from a community, educational, environmental, and economic standpoint. It’s really not a bad book, to tell you the truth. I learned a bit form it.

    However, I was struck by how often the author felt the need to qualify her feminism, as if her choice to make the best choice for her children was somehow wrong. I couldn’t help but think, “Why all the hemming and hawing? I thought feminism was all about choice???”

    [ssm: Thanks for the book suggestion. I might try to find a used copy.]

  196. Looking Glass

    @SSM & Elspeth:

    It’s not hard to understand, unfortunately, and it comes from a complete famine of Spirit.

    Those women have abdicated much of their humanity, natural instinct and Soul for a type of Status. A Status they’ve been told to attain and the society makes freely available to attain. But it is soulless and ever consuming because to attain it is to place an unnatural interest above God or even self.

    That’s pretty much Feminism to a T. Nothing is “Good” of its own nature or device. No, it is only “Good” if it serves “Team Woman”. This is also why the thinking is insanely destructive, as it denies basic reality for an unreality built upon the work of Men.

    This is kind of a side point, and probably one that’ll go over like a lead balloon: Isn’t only have 1 child, which is definitely the norm among Feminists, just “playing” at motherhood? 1 child is simply not going to be net productive for the Family (at end-of-life analysis), the child will be spoiled, have insane expectations and limited ability to operate within a family structure as well as children with multiple siblings. Just having 1 child, also, comes across as raising an accessory for the Feminist Merit Badge, rather than attempting to raise a progeny to carry your family isn’t the future.

    [There's the obvious caveat for those women that can't have children or who's husband dies or some other catastrophic event. This, obviously, isn't who I'm talking about.]

  197. Looking Glass

    Another side point to the article and comments SSM posted:

    Few people ever think of themselves as “evil”, even when performing great evil. Works the same way for people acting like parasites on their family, society and/or marriage.

    The article some weeks back that complained about Ivy League School educated women not doing better had something of a point, in that regard. It was just the place it came from was pretty terrible.

  198. redpillwifey

    I am completely late to the party, but this post has given me a lot to think about. I was firmly in the “don’t bother with college, it’s a waste” camp, but now I’m not so sure.

  199. Matthew King

    Sunshine Mary wrote:

    But where will we find this future husband if not at college? Where will we even start searching?

    You don’t find them. Nor do you wait with a sigh at your windowpane wondering when her prince will come.

    You make them.

    And a “strong-willed” girl like Miss M (with your and your husband’s steady guidance) is uniquely positioned to make herself a worthy man out of young clay.

    By young, I don’t mean her peers, but rather ten years or so older. I don’t know your daughter’s age, but it probably means the alpha-clay waiting to be formed is in his 20s today, which uncoincidentally is when most men discover game.

    You have never met a woman with a stronger will than you because you have never met our eldest daughter, Miss M. She would drive you to drink. And on top of everything else, she is also an extrovert.

    You have to understand that, to a certain man, this doesn’t make Miss M less attractive but rather more attractive. We want to be the guy to conquer what other people (especially her mom) believe unconquerable.

    You are righteously expecting to domesticate your child, to make her more feminine and docile because you know that conforming to her sexual nature in that regard will make her life easier.

    But a mate wants to know there is something for him to tame too, something worth taming — especially if she is as pretty as you say. That is the divine madness (theia mania) of a love affair, which can fuel a relationship for life through all its quotidian longueurs and disappointments.

    After refreshing yourself with Shakespeare and Cole Porter, read the Phaedrus, particularly Socrates’s second speech on the four kinds of divine madness (224a-257b), the last of which is of love/beauty (beginning 249d).

    Do you not know about this madness? Or do you fear it for your daughter in abstraction even as she will one day erotically fear and love it? Are you not a strong-willed woman yourself? You have much to teach her, just as her future husband will have much to teach her: not to suffocate that female Freigeist in her so much as contain it, embrace it, and give it space to burn, like the magnetic fields that hold in the fusion power of the sun on earth. An eternal, internal combustion engine. The holy bondage that restrains and liberates.

    You do have some work to do, to train your girl to train a man into the alpha that can train her. Her will is an ally, if properly channeled. All she must learn to do is to leave breadcrumbs to the secret of her conquering — to hint at the possibility — and a motivated man’s manliness will do the rest by instinct. In a culture of eunuchs, a woman whom you hope your daughter to one day be is the best inspiration for men to rediscover their fortitude. Otherwise, if you make her less demanding, the soft and squishy will flock to her in proportion.

    An alpha male in his prime (and in his right mind) will take her now because her ceiling is so high and so untouched by the corrupt culture. It would be worth the long-term project of drawing virtue out of her. This once was the way, before we democratized the natural aristocracy of our souls. You must therefore think of your little girl as herself an alpha female beginning her prime, only without the decade(s) experience of her male counterparts that gives a person control of his fate. You and her father are that experience in her stead, and you have it in your power to help her invest her tremendous growth potential wisely.

    In other words, she will have her pick — but only a small timeframe within which to choose. Her best bet is the unformed alphas with potential as unlimited as hers. Among the herbly there will be many young men who are simply uninspired and misled into thinking they must be docile to be good. Her contempt for wimpy manboys will manifest itself on its own. A future father in law can have great influence over a young man by demanding him to be manly, whatever the boy’s beta dad taught him. All you will have to inculcate is patience in your girl through the growing urgency of her circumstance. Her window is short, and alpha training is long.

    It seems counterintuitive now in the ruins of the sexual revolution to forgo playing the wide field opening to your daughter before her. It will seem unshrewd, especially to a strong-willed young woman, to bet her life on one or maybe two suitors. But if the very act of playing the field ruins a girl — and we are only now beginning to overcome the devastating lie which denied this — what does she have to lose?

    The chances of finding an alpha in an oversexed culture who is also willing (able?) to be constant is not greater than the chances of fashioning a mediocrity into greatness. And after even the briefest carousel ride, chances drop to nil. An alpha female who sacrifices her prime to teach/inspire a young man how to become alpha will thereafter encourage him to sacrifice his own prime when it arrives much later. So that they might grow together and into each other, indivisible. One flesh. It used to be called “courting,” and it used to work.

    Matt

  200. alcestiseshtemoa

    In the feminist place, there’s the man-haters (e.g. “I hate men!“), there’s the jealous of men/penis envy types (e.g. “I wish I was a man!“) and another type I forgot. That’s the psychology of feminism.

    Nevertheless, there are two types of general feminist labels. The radical feminists, hideous both on the inside and the outside. They’re angry at men and society as a whole. And then, there’s the “average feminists” (mainstream women). These types have feminists values but don’t call themselves feminists. Both of them are dangerous, but the latter is more sneaky and more insidious because the content and the label aren’t together, so it results in more confusion and deception.

  201. Matthew King

    Sunshine Mary asked:

    By the way, did anyone notice that when Viva La Manosphere linked this article, they used a picture of Jupiter? Someone there has a sense of humor.

    Don’t underestimate how important Viva La Manosphere’s artistry will become to this community. (I do think he deserves a better name for his achievement, but that is not terribly relevant for now.) Photo selection is powerfully persuasive on this low-attention-span medium, and VLM does it better than anyone with the possible exception of Rollo Tomassi from The Rational Male, who anyway does not match material to image with the same degree of frequency and consistency.

    VLM is now my portal because he does such a great, comprehensive, clean job of assembling all the most important new material — and makes it pretty. Aesthetics counts! Everyone here, especially the bloggers whose work he posts, owes him a debt of gratitude. His work is fantastic and may his kind multiply.

    Matt

    [ssm: I would thank him but I don't know who he is. I do like VLM, though. I've read stuff that I wouldn't have known about had I not seen it there.]

  202. tbc

    Third, they still want to be able to call themselves feminists, they just don’t want to be feminists.

    And

    However, I was struck by how often the author felt the need to qualify her feminism, as if her choice to make the best choice for her children was somehow wrong. I couldn’t help but think, “Why all the hemming and hawing? I thought feminism was all about choice???”

    Feminism is but one of several denominations of the current institutional religion of leftism, so there is a need to genuflect before its’ altars before making any statement whatsoever. It really doesn’t matter if these women are actually feminists or not. What is important is that they feel the need to at least ‘render unto Caesar’ so to speak.

    It is, in every sense of the word, a state religion akin to emperor worship in Rome. No one was actually required to believe in the divinity of the Roman emperor, nor even forsake the reverence due your own gods, but everyone had to say ‘Caesar is Lord’ convincingly enough, which is why Christians were so subversive and were considered enemies of the state: we refused to genuflect to the state religion.

  203. Matthew King

    Frank whimpered:

    Am I the only one who finds the dog collar thing a bit creepy?

    Mercy, I hope so.

    Stop muttering the word “creepy” like a snotty cockblock who is fatter than she thinks she is. You don’t have a dominant bone in your body, which is why you are repulsive to the women who do not outright pity you. Be ashamed of yourself. And secure that snarky reply you soooo want to type at me, because it doesn’t help. Consider my attack as the tough love it is, brother. You are going the wrong way.

    Bondage can get quickly cartoonish in this age of overdoing everything. But submission is at the heart of the sexual difference, and even outré expressions of it help reconnect the confused with their natures. It’s not anything to self-righteously pucker your anus about. Particularly because the kind of people who gather at this site are morally self-policing and astonishingly courteous for an internet forum.

    Matt

  204. anonymous

    If you tell people they are poor because someone else has been holding them down, they will never learn to take any responsibility for their actions; they will always just blame it on the imaginary person who is holding them down

    Unfortunately they don’t blame imaginary persons (eg, leprechauns, elves, etc). Instead, they wrongfully blame REAL people. This wrongful blaming is the root cause of a lot of antiwhite racist violence (flashmobs, gangrapes, etc), and antiwhite racist voting (eg, Obama).

  205. anonymous

    SC you should want a man with balls so he can do his primary job, defend his women and kids. What you have is some guy who has to farm the job out. Your soft life relies on rougher men deciding to behave.

    Quite true. Quoting Fight Club — “We cook your meals. We haul your trash. We connect your calls. We drive your ambulances. We guard you while you sleep. Do not f*** with us.”

    If you’re a white collar worker, and you haven’t picked up some blue collar capabilities (eg, growing food, basic carpentry and plumbing, etc), you’re foolish. Set the books aside and go get your hands dirty planting a food garden already. And learn to shoot.

  206. anonymous

    I selected a collar, and handed it to her, while looking directly into her eyes and saying: “I want you to put this on”. She closed her eyes, and then I counted her small chest rise and fall seven times *. I remember being quite relaxed, even though she was the first one since forever whose decision would actually matter, but the only thought that entered my mind was: “I will never let her get implants”.

    Then her eyes opened and she said: “I want you to do this”. She handed the collar back to me, passed her hands up and over her head, lifted her hair, and then a dreamy look came over her face. And that was that. She sort of floated out of the store, and from that point on, it was as if we had always been together.

    Hot. I’m not into BDSM at all… but that’s just hot.

    And it’s only 8:47 AM… I have to live with this raging [insert last name of the speaker of the house] for the rest of the day. $%#%

    [ssm: And it's well written; Anonymoose seems to know how to tell a story. I think my objection to FSoG first and foremost is that (from the excerpts I've read online) it is so very badly written.]

  207. sunshinemary

    @ Matthew
    Your comment at 10:52 was helpful, thank you.

    Although I’ve joked with both anonymous and Vascularity777 about marrying my daughters to their sons, in reality I had just been thinking yesterday evening that perhaps we would be able to find husbands for our daughters at church and mold them into real men. I should think it would be a relief to young men in many ways. It’s got to feel as bad for men as it does for women to continue in this feminist charade that we are all playing.

  208. Frank

    Matthew,

    Sod off, idiot. Using an anonymous ID with a link back to Yahoo, LOL, how brave you are to keep trolling while you hide behind a monitor eating cheetos and spanking off to tranny porn. Until you learn to have the strength of your convictions and stop sniping at people behind a fake ID like a bedwetting 5 year old repressed homosexual, your smarmy little barbs are of little consequence.

    You want to talk about dominant, how about you come over here to New York and tell me again how there’s no dominant bone in my body, and see if you’ll still be able to walk home straight after that.

  209. Farm Boy

    It’s got to feel as bad for men as it does for women to continue in this feminist charade that we are all playing.

    You will never know…

    [ssm: Ah, Farm Boy, you've just given me an idea for a new post. Thanks! Must go write now while my little homeschooler is eating her lunch.]

  210. anonymous

    Although I’ve joked with both anonymous and Vascularity777 about marrying my daughters to their sons

    So you’re going to LJBF them, sight unseen?

    [ssm: Well, send me an email then in about eight years. She'll be nearly sixteen then. :)]

  211. Marcus

    “…largely unused education whereby I was able to find a good husband.”

    To be fair, it seems it took a lot of years and a lot of pain till he finally became a “good husband” by any metric, secular or Christian.

  212. Frank

    Consider my attack as the tough love it is, brother.

    You are not a Christian, and you are not my brother. Until you offer a shred of proof otherwise, you are a 500 pound heffer and alpha wannabe who lives a fantasy life on the web.

    I’m sorry SSM for going off on a tangent again, but I’m on my last nerve and this pathetic little bloviating douchebag is dry humping it.

    [ssm: No need to apologize. Say what you need to say.]

  213. Cail Corishev

    Am I the only one who finds the dog collar thing a bit creepy?

    I’m not into the full collar-and-leash thing myself, but there’s a reason why chokers are so incredibly hot. And you don’t have to be into BDSM to see the potential fun and excitement in Anonymoose’s story of challenging a woman to put one on in the store as a one-time thing. I haven’t done that, but I have had occasion to challenge a woman to do something in public that was bolder than she would normally do, and the reaction is just as he described: shock and resistance at first, soon followed by excitement and throwing herself into the part. It’s like a story from one of her romance novels came to life for a minute and allowed her to star in it.

    The other side of this is that, since women yearn to be challenged and dominated, if you don’t, they’ll try to provide it for themselves. When I was a total white-knight beta who would never suggest a woman do anything of the sort, they would come up with their own, like, “Hey, let’s go over behind those trees just barely out of sight and screw.” While they enjoyed the naughtiness, I realize now that their enjoyment would have been exponentially higher if I’d been the one saying, “Come over here and bend over,” instead of, “Um, okay, if you’re sure,” because what they were really looking for was dominance and risk-taking from me. And ultimately, if she can’t draw the dominance she needs out of you, she’ll get it somewhere else.

  214. anonymous

    You have to understand that, to a certain man, this doesn’t make Miss M less attractive but rather more attractive. We want to be the guy to conquer what other people…. believe unconquerable.

    And to a certain type of man, a strong-willed, tough-minded woman is considered more attractive because she’s lower maintenance and a better helpmeet than a high-maintenance, fragile weakling. In other words, she makes a man’s burden lighter, not heavier.

    One has to engineer for the worst case scenario. What if something happened to me, and she was left with the kids alone? Would she be tough enough, and moral enough, to handle widowed-motherhood? Could she teach a boy to shoot, if she had to?

    So I spent my life searching for a strong, independent woman who had, on her own, come to the same conclusions as I had, about faith, politics, and life in general. She, in turn, spent her life looking for a man who was not only righteous, but strong enough, that she could confidently submit.

  215. anonymous

    [ssm: And it's well written; Anonymoose seems to know how to tell a story. I think my objection to FSoG first and foremost is that (from the excerpts I've read online) it is so very badly written.]

    Perhaps you should create a moderation–only section, with blaze orange NSFW tags on the links leading thereunto, where high quality, monogamist erotica can be posted. Morticia also writes monogamist erotica and could perhaps be persuaded to post some.

  216. alcestiseshtemoa

    This whole “strong minded, independent woman with an even stronger man” reminds me of old English novels like Pride and Prejudice by Jane Austen. The story is cute and plausible, but if this happens on a wide scale it leads to disaster. It leads to unchecked hypergamy which may never be fulfilled nor sated.

  217. alcestiseshtemoa

    Taming of the Shrew was written as a Comedy by William Shakespeare I think. It wasn’t a romance nor a tragedy.

  218. anonymous

    “strong minded, independent woman with an even stronger man” ….leads to unchecked hypergamy which may never be fulfilled nor sated.

    It works fine for us. My wife’s hypergamy is, ahem, quite satisfiied…. no, not gonna get graphic…

  219. Farm Boy

    but if this happens on a wide scale it leads to disaster. It leads to unchecked hypergamy which may never be fulfilled nor sated.

    What is this “if” part?

  220. Thankful Husband

    My wife only has a few college credits…and I gladly married her. The college gals seem to take on the feminist viewpoint much more so…even at the Christian University I went to. I never attended a public university but you’d be shocked at the stuff they teach at what is considered a conservative christian college, and that was 15 years ago for me. I can’t imagine it’s gotten better. I left the university early as even there I was feeling indoctrinated and I felt like I was wasting my time. Having started my own business…that’s where I’ll stear my kids unless they have a strong desire to either join the family business or go to college or technical school. I hope they marry early. We married before I was finished with school.

    [ssm: Thanks for sharing this. In generally I'm beginning to think that practically no one should go to college.]

  221. Sigyn

    Since it was asked:

    The dog-collar thing on a first date would be a nuclear NO for me. Collars are a show of ownership. No ownership without purchase price, and I didn’t/don’t do rentals or even “free samples”.

    Bash me for being prudish and prissy if you want. Those words don’t mean anything anymore, especially now that they’ve started being applied to girls who want to know his first name before dropping their drawers.

    …Ugh, baby psychosis.

  222. AC

    “ssm: Second, there are many higher IQ Indians in the U.S. and their children seem to do very well. How do Indian parents raise their children (especially their daughters) to value marriage and to do well in life despite the challenges of being higher IQ?]”

    There’s a rigid culture of success for Indian culture, especially for the educated immigrants that came from India. The parents’ duty is not seen as finished until they marry off their children. Every child (boy and girl, especially boys) is pushed to achieve and if you don’t become a lawyer/doctor/engineer etc you are considered a failure. This video is funny but kind of true:

    Successful marriage is drummed into the kid’s head and is monitored by parents. I’ve heard passionate arguments how “arranged marriage” is better than “love marriage” when I was in college. Around marriageable age, the kid’s horoscopes are closely measured. Parents reject suitors for their daughters hand based on educational qualifications/family background/caste etc etc. If a girl is too highly educated it may be harder for her to find a match if she is older, but her education status signals to her groom’s family that she is well trained. If she’s a doctor, so much the better..she can always scale back. If the child marries someone that is not approved, they can face ostracization from the entire community. For a child who is used to a big family, this can be very harsh.

    [ssm: Interesting. Thanks for explaining this.]

  223. Frank

    The dog-collar thing on a first date would be a nuclear NO for me. Collars are a show of ownership. No ownership without purchase price, and I didn’t/don’t do rentals or even “free samples”.

    That’s a good point, I’d argue ownership or possession of one another being healthy in a marriage, but on a first date?

  224. Feminist Hater

    SSM, do you think your daughter is not going to get married? If no man can handle her, sending her or not sending her off to university, isn’t really the question. If you truly think she ain’t going to get married, it’s in her best interest to get a real education STEM majors and be able to take care of herself.

    The question is more about whether you think she needs to get married. Isn’t that what this is really about? The more I think about it, the similarities between what you say about your daughter and what feminists say about themselves become apparent. What you’re saying, is that you think your daughter is too ‘independent and full of sassy will power’ that no man would consider her because they would be intimidated?

    Is this not correct?

    [ssm: No, that is not correct. She is willful and that is a bad thing. I understand that she may need some taming, but she needs to develop self-control first. But she is quite young and that may come with time. Personally, I would prefer that she use her intellectual skills to raise a bunch of children rather than go to college.]

  225. Pingback: How much farther to Abilene? | Sunshine Mary

  226. anonymous

    there are many higher IQ Indians in the U.S. and their children seem to do very well. How do Indian parents raise their children (especially their daughters) to value marriage and to do well in life despite the challenges of being higher IQ?]

    Is this an example of apex fallacy? We see all these high IQ Indians with successful arranged marriages and start thinking, their culture has a better handle on certain things.. or perhaps remembers things that the West forgot… but maybe not. Maybe it’s just the high IQ Indians — the equivalent of UC/UMC Westerners with high IQs, who are also noted for greater marital stability?

    [ssm: Yes, maybe it's the arranged marriage thing. Could be.]

  227. AC

    The dog collar thing not relevant to the discussion on how to best prepare girls for the future, marriage/marrying well and to sustain themselves. Anonymoose may try to tie it back to to the discussion by “submission”, I don’t think its even written well…seems pretty run of the mill fantasy putting a collar on some woman’s neck. All I could think of is some dude beating off to this behind his computer.

    One thing SSM, is that the internet, especially in the manosphere lends itself to one kind of view as to how girls should behave to marry well. Why don’t you just ask the people in real life.
    Single out some YOUNG men right now, type of men you think you would be very happy to see your daughter marry some day and ask them.

    I won’t give up on your daughter marrying yet, I know some virtual witches that got married…and they seem to be doing just fine. and they married very eligible bachelors. For a period of time, all my aunts were snidely saying I would never marry. But I married well, and if I want to never have to work again and be sure my children will be provided for. But if you think your daughter can never get married, she needs to sustain herself. I agree with the recommendation to get a STEM degree at the best school with AS LITTLE DEBT AS POSSIBLE.

    You may find this interesting. Its a researcher that interviewed 3000 case studies as to what compelled men to marry.

    http://bookoutlines.pbworks.com/w/page/14422733/Why%20Men%20Marry%20Some%20Women%20And%20Not%20Others

  228. Anonymoose

    “And you don’t have to be into BDSM to see the potential fun and excitement in Anonymoose’s story of challenging a woman to put one on in the store as a one-time thing.”

    Doing it in such a blatant manner was indeed a one-time thing, a test, a turning point, since I am normally aloof and very low-key. And even as she continues not to hide the fact that she proudly belongs to me, my green-eyed redhead is much more discreet than the rest of the women, most of whom are very publicly practicing what is, for all practical purposes, in-your-face femdom on their men.

    This is neither about BDSM, nor is it even close to being actual BDSM. Instead it is about directing, enabling, and then protecting, a frame of mind that was considered normal and proper for women, until very recently.

    Those of you who had a negative reaction might want to stop and consider specifically what you found upsetting. Was it the declaration implicit in an adornment of an otherwise modestly dressed woman, in a store full of females dressed like whores and acting like sluts? Or are you uncomfortable with the nature of the predominant fantasies of women? If you want strictures place on married couples beyond what is found in the Bible, then we will just have to agree to disagree, and leave it at that.

    Since I found her, I have had versions of my “there are no NAWALTs, and ‘all women are like that’ ” speech repeated back to me. But I am starting to become convinced that she, and some of the women on this site, are mutants, in the true biological sense of the word, with characteristics that were bred out of most of the population quite a long time ago. I think that you all were in the process of climbing this mountain from the very beginning, and religion was the first clearly marked path that you found. Otherwise, there should be no slut-mamma churchians and their pimp-warrior priests.

    Home schooling averted contrary pressures, but she was always a “little strange”, according to the common people who surrounded her (including her family, except for her parents and her sister).

    For example, she was always very frugal, and remains so even now, when there is still no need. She likes to make her own simple but beautiful dresses, and can spend hours repairing her favorite sandals. I am reassured and delighted by this, but I love to spoil a cheap date, so sometimes I just have to throw her over my shoulder and take her shopping.

    Some of the things that the “am I alpha enough” crowd obsesses about seem a little silly to me, but I suppose that context is everything. When she is trying on clothes, I put her purse on the chair beside me, with my arm through the handles. That way no one can steal it from the dressing room, and I can enjoy her version of a runway show, complete with pirouettes and silly poses, without being distracted.

    And she seems to be the only woman in the world without that homing pigeon drive to flock at shoe stores (or maybe she is just really, really clever!). So, once in a while, I will drag her into a store, to the most secluded area away from the entrance, and then do my imitation of a shoe salesman.

    As I “help” her to try on shoes, I tickle her behind the knees and play with her toes, and I get a point whenever she gets goose bumps. We are very discreet, and nobody ever seems to notice, except for the one time when a woman kept insisting to the manger (who was trying to explain that we were both customers): “NO, I will buy shoes only from THAT salesman”.

    Speaking of tickling, someone left a comment here a while ago about using it to initiate playtime, and she does the same thing. One time I felt an odd breeze on my ear, which took a while to register. My first thought was that there was something wrong with the air conditioning vents, but when I turned around, I saw a four foot long straw poking out from behind some cabinets.

    She then sticks out her tongue, does her little dance, and proclaims: “you can’t do anything to me, because I’m just a girl [with "girl" having two syllables]“. And then the chase is on! She took rhythmic gymnastics when she was younger, and she is a nimble little shit. She can scoot around the couch faster than a freaking cat.

    I guess my point is that this is the first relationship in which making things easy for each other is what we ended up looking forward to the most.

  229. Feminist Hater

    Eh, okay, so you do want her to get married? Explain this please?

    …I’m not sure that, despite being very pretty, she would be a suitable wife for anyone because she is so strong-willed.]

  230. Anonymoose

    Normally, I just say what I have to say, and leave it at that. If my perspective benefits someone, great. If not, we simply go our separate ways.

    But since Frank, in his ridiculous way, has attacked people who were supporting me, I just wanted to remind everyone about http://www.returnofkings.com/9782/why-christian-men-dont-deserve-virgins.

    This article uses Frank as an example to explain why those whose hearts heart bragging about what amounts to peeing in their own beds, even when they are awake, should probably concentrate on fixing themselves first.

  231. an observer

    Two points.

    1. A girl that gets a job straight out of school and works full time could still save money for her future house deposit with a husband. They dont earn much, but can choose to live within their means. Most do not. Until every woman and her cat enrolled in college, grads used to enjoy a salary advantabe over hs diploma holders. That gap has significantly narowed.

    2. The dual income couple that became much more typical does not gain much advantage from leaping income bands. They normally adjust spending patterns to match, buying a better house and bidding up the prices because o their increased repayment ability, buying a newer car or cars, travelling andntaking expensive vacations, and choosing expensive schooling options.

    So,

    A girl that commits to saving cash straight out of achool can do really well. But most rely an anticipated greatet earnings that come at a cost of years in college, her most fertile years of youth, and delaying marriage.

    Dual income couples could and can be much better off, but most are not, adjusting their spending upwards to match their status expectations. The dinks are often highly indebted and have higer commitments than the old single income couple for the most basic of expenses.

    The bankers love this, of course. Get the populace hooked on debt, and a guaranteed income stream. Devalue the dollar througn grinding inflation and hey, dual income couples become the norm.

    A study called it the two income trap. Ignore their socialist recommendations to fix it, though. Their basic findings were that fixed expenses have risen and cost more than ever.

    http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2004/11/two-income-trap

    http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB107593662633421044-search,00.html

  232. Thankful Husband

    [ssm: Thanks for sharing this. In generally I'm beginning to think that practically no one should go to college.]

    If they really want to, once they are 18 it’s up to them…but I’m not raising them with that in mind.I’ll be there for guidance and help but part of growing up is standing on your own two feet. We have enough property that if they want to build a house up here they are welcome…no charge but they are going to put in the sweat and most of the dough. I won’t stand for 28 year old’s living at home playing video games. They are also welcome to join the family business but they will WORK. I think college, no college, it doesn’t matter. I think it comes down to instilling charachter and work ethic. If they have those two things they may start at the gas station but within five years they’ll be running the joint because those two things are in short supply in this world. If they have those two things they’ll be able to avoid the downfalls of college, at least most of them most of the time.

  233. sunshinemary

    @ Feminist Hater
    Sure, I’ll explain. My preference is for her to marry. In order to do that, she needs to learn to bridle her will and submit to authority. If she can’t do that, then I don’t think she will be a suitable wife. I wouldn’t wish an overly willful wife on a man, unless of course he’s truly up to the challenge. However, Deti’s recent comment about how he is training his teenaged daughter to accept male authority by ordering her to do simple tasks for him was quite wise, and I read it to my husband. We will certainly do our best to help her see that she needs to learn to be more submissive. If we succeed, then I hope she will marry.

    If you are willing and obedient,
    you shall eat the good of the land;
    but if you refuse and rebel,
    you shall be eaten by the sword;
    for the mouth of the Lord has spoken.”
    Isaiah 1:19-20

  234. FuzzieWuzzie

    SSM, could this willful one also be the first born? If so, she has to be the path finder for her siblings. She has to test the limits and boundaries. It’s not easy on parents and it’s not easy on the first born either.

    [ssm: Yes, the first born, and the first grandchild on both sides. People have been applauding her every move since birth.]

  235. Sigyn

    Some of the things that the “am I alpha enough” crowd obsesses about seem a little silly to me, but I suppose that context is everything.

    Having written this, Anonymoose, you really have no business piling on Frank with that horrible post. What he wrote was taken well out of context, and the man who wrote it was bragging about making the world worse. This was about trying to shame Frank for not being “alpha enough” for that guy’s liking and make him question his status.

    Furthermore, I explained why I, a woman, would have taken issue with your collar trick. Yes, it was “the declaration implicit in an adornment of an otherwise modestly dressed woman, in a store full of females dressed like whores and acting like sluts”, because you would not have had the RIGHT to act like you owned me. (His Lordship has, but it took more than an invitation to go to a pet store.) For a girl to give you so much apparent authority on so little investment was NOT “a frame of mind that was considered normal and proper for women, until very recently.”

  236. an observer

    Another point about money.

    Many, many students take even longer than four years to graduate, costing more in foregone earnings.The wise parent will get their teenager out to work, perhaps part time community college if appropriate.

    An old trick was to charge children board. Many parents indulge their little darlings and let them live on rent free. Parents used to charge board, and the canny ones would save it on their behalf.
    After a few years, the accrued total can stock a house with white goods, buy a car, pay for a wedding etc.

  237. AC

    @ Sigyn
    “For a girl to give you so much apparent authority on so little investment was NOT “a frame of mind that was considered normal and proper for women, until very recently”

    EXACTLY. Anonymoose takes some fantasy he has and tries to spin it into a morality tale on how Christian women should submit to their husbands and boasts about how his boss’ wife anticipates it? Then his supporter abuse Frank when Frank calls it out for what it is..

    Should a Christian girl put on a dog collar for a man she just met to get him to marry her? Is this something you would share with your pastor in church? If this girl shared what she did with another man is the man likely to marry her? Or does it make her just sound like a stripper?

    Mutual kinks can be satisfying and left to a committed couple to experiment. But a spade is a spade and Frank said exactly what it was. It was weird..especially in the light of this discussion.

  238. Farm Boy

    People have been applauding her every move since birth

    I am sure there is much self-esteem in the local area to soak up also.

    Gotta bring her down a notch.

  239. an observer

    ” You know, FOX turned into a hard core sex channel so gradually, I didn’t even notice. ”

    Marge Simpson

  240. anonymous

    Allammagoosa sidestepped the entire collaring issue and got herself belled instead.

    Pics or it didn’t happen

  241. Eih

    From a young professional married to one, my biggest regret is choosing a girl who has a college degree, much less a graduate degree.

    If your daughter is a Christian, then your recommendation to her would be to preserve her feminine traits – teach her how to make a man feel respected, teach her how to be demure, hardworking, reliable, and teach her how to not have sex. These things are of infinite importance in attracting a quality man. There are plenty of Chateau men out there, but few Vox’s or Dalrock’s.

    When she is 18, have her move out and begin working a job that can provide her sustenance and the ability to room with anywhere from 2-3 roommates. This is important because it will help her learn how to accept hardship without complaint, something that is not taught at a University and something women in our country do not even understand. She will move into an area with a local university, and, most importantly, a college ministry that is solid concerning the scriptures and large.

    During this time she will cultivate her intellectual pursuits, which will be useful ones such as cooking, knowledge of the Bible and apologetics, and various literature of her interest. She will attend to her body, which includes both aerobic and weight training. She will, importantly, not boast of any accomplishments in these areas. She will not lord her knowledge of scripture over people, she will not drop allusions every other sentence – she will remain demure. She will attend every ministry event where she will be kind, gracious, and social, but certainly not flirtatious. The men will flock to her if she accomplishes the above.

    You will educate her about guys who run Game, which are always, always status ploys that are pitifully easy for any other guy to see through but difficult for a woman to recognize. She will select a man based not upon his status, which is foolish and fleeting, but on his trajectory. It is unimportant for him to drive the nicest car, know the most about the Bible, be the smartest or best looking or fittest in the room. Does he have the qualities, that, in 10 years, will make him successful in a variety of realms?

    Men desire a companion who is loyal, hardworking, and supportive, but not one who is competitive or aggressive. I would argue that men do not know this until they have already married someone who is exactly what they do not want because they have not given the thought or been honestly told what to look for in a spouse. A woman’s degree is worthless except as a security blanket should she end up divorced, in which case if her husband was successful at all she will likely have a decent alimony payment. The highest degree she should obtain, unless her odds of finding a man are dreadfully low (she is older, ugly, disagreeable, etc…) is an associates that will provide her with decent employment. If, by the age of 30 she has no prospects she may consider returning for a STEM degree that will not burden her with debt.

    If your daughter is an atheist or feminist I would recommend a University degree, preferably from Harvard in some liberal arts major which will fit her beliefs adequately (or ruin a perfectly good potential spouse) and provide her with a load of debt. In 20 years she will realize that not only was Harvard a useless degree, but it was a distraction from things that are more important.

  242. GKChesteron

    Don’t have time to go through the posts, but there is something to a well cultivated woman. But we’ve had that for years (thousands). Despite modern feminist harping women of a given social class usually read as well as their social class in any given age outside of oriental (see: modern mid-east ) despots. And a woman who is completely ignorant can’t:
    1.) Run a household
    2.) Engage in good conversation

    So yes, she should be well read and educated. Whether _college_ is the place for that is up for discussion.

    [ssm: I believe GBFM has attempted to answer that question.]

  243. nightskyradio

    Anonymous -She was joking that people could always hear her approaching because she put her engagement ring on the same necklace as her cross, and they clink when she walks.

    [ssm: Cute. By the way, I sent her the picture of me that she requested.]

  244. grey_whiskers

    @ssm, @looking glass (May 13, 2013 at 1:19 pm )
    [ssm: Ah, I could tell by your words that you are very familiar with what I'm talking about. Yes about the enforce with force thing. We were firmly committed to the non-spanking ideology until we had her. I was sure we could just reason with our children and make them behave that way. It didn't work with her at all because she always had a detailed argument about why she shouldn't have to do whatever we were telling her to do. And yes about them remembering and exploiting the smallest deviation from The Way It Always Is. Also, they will remember something you said four years ago and use it to defy you if they can. It's easier to discipline her now, though; I just take away her iPod Touch and listen to her howl like a banshee.]

    Yep. I’ve found with teens, that embarrassment in front of their peers works *very* well: in particular, teens run in horror from the mere *thought* that any of their friend EVER hear their father…singing.

    One must use “street smarts” to outwit the high IQ — the kids just have enough *energy* to wear me down, and have no qualms about slipping out of logical consistency just to bait me. It is therefore required to return the favor. :-)

    For wives and the hamster, however, nothing but unadulterated GAME and sexuality will do — the higher the IQ, the higher the hamster-horsepower, the higher the hypergamy, the greater the need for, ahem, alpha (even if you’re a cubicle beta, you can become a centaur at home.)

    [ssm: OK, you know we don't have TV, right? So that commercial has left me a bit speechless! As to humiliation - you and my husband think alike. We found out she had a "boyfriend" at school, so at dismissal about a month ago, the boy's mom and my husband were acting like total goofballs, singing and talking together at the top of their lungs as a way to let Miss M and her paramour know that any attempts at middle school romance would be met with humiliation. Both children slunk off to the cars, heads down and faces red.]

  245. grey_whiskers

    @Cail Corishev on May 13, 2013 at 1:46 pm
    I think that, because smart kids are basically learning machines who will sit and observe and teach themselves everything they’re interested in, there’s a tendency to assume they’ll teach themselves virtues like honesty and discipline too. It doesn’t work that way. Being smart may help you understand those things better or at an earlier age, but it doesn’t make you automatically want them. They have to be enforced until they become habits.

    See also C.S. Lewis’s The Abolition of Man:

    St Augustine defines virtue as ordo amoris, the ordinate condition of the affections in which every object is accorded that kind of degree of love which is appropriate to it.11 Aristotle says that the aim of education is to make the pupil like and dislike what he ought.12 When the age for reflective thought comes, the pupil who has been thus trained in ‘ordinate affections’ or ‘just sentiments’ will easily find the first principles in Ethics; but to the corrupt man they will never be visible at all and he can make no progress in that science.13 Plato before him had said the same. The little human animal will not at first have the right responses. It must be trained to feel pleasure, liking, disgust, and hatred at those things which really are pleasant, likeable, disgusting and hateful.14 In the Republic, the well-nurtured youth is one ‘who would see most clearly whatever was amiss in ill-made works of man or ill-grown works of nature, and with a just distaste would blame and hate the ugly even from his earliest years and would give delighted praise to beauty, receiving it into his soul and being nourished by it, so that he becomes a man of gentle heart. All this before he is of an age to reason; so that when Reason at length comes to him, then, bred as he has been, he will hold out his hands in welcome and recognize her because of the affinity he bears to her.’15

    May I suggest, however, that rather than complete freedom within a set of rigid barriers, a better approach might be “shaped like a bowl” — complete freedom in a limited area, with gently (or steeply) sloping barriers in different directions, depending on how much emotional or social maturity is required to deal with a particular area…

  246. FuzzieWuzzie

    SSM, I put on my thinking cap and came up with something. Do you think that she could handle a little reponsibility? Something like feeding the family pooch. Easy to monitor and easy to call to account. Fringe benefit to her: pooch will be genuinely grateful and the duty will result in poditive reinforcement. Just an idea submitted for your consideration.

  247. YouHaveMyPermission

    @ SSM

    I still don’t know if you believe in evolution, and what the difference between you and animal is.

    ssm: One does not need to believe that people evolved from non-human primates in order to understand that God created humans with the ability to adapt to their environment through differential survivorship.

    1. What exactly does this mean? Your post which I quoted was all about evolution psychology. Why are we the way we are? It’s either God made us this way (and our sin nature), or we are nothing more than animals, our behaviors and instincts are dictated by our genes and evolutionary history. The two are not compatible, however you try to frame it. It is against scripture and knowledge.

    2. Clearly define and explain “the ability to adapt to their environment through differential survivorship”. Give a clear example that is demonstrably true (not theory) of humans since Adam as it relates to evolutionary psychology and genetics.

    3. On what grounds do you believe these things you or other people say? You say it as if it is a given. There is not one shred of proof. Anyone can make up a theory. But you hold strong to such a position. Why? Is it because it seems intellectual? You should know in the scientific field, evolutionary psychology and behavioural genetics are criticized.

  248. Matthew King

    Frank wrote:

    You are not a Christian, and you are not my brother. Until you offer a shred of proof otherwise, you are a 500 pound heffer and alpha wannabe who lives a fantasy life on the web.

    I am very much a Christian — though all fall short of the glory of God. Which is why it sickens me to see a fellow brother in Christ alternate between mealy-mouthed beta softness and spasms of impotent internet rage. It doesn’t have to be this way.

    You want to talk about dominant, how about you come over here to New York and tell me again how there’s no dominant bone in my body, and see if you’ll still be able to walk home straight after that.

    See, this will not do. You are flailing at shadows and making yourself look foolish. You are compensating for an embarrassing exposure of your vulnerable nature. “Christian, remember your dignity.” (Pope St. Leo the Great)

    We Christian men are not vulnerable. We have the Gospel. We have the power of the Spirit, which is Love Itself. We have “the whole armor of God.” We have the sword and the shield, the fist and the other cheek, the hand-cannon and sniper rifle, the serpent and dove, the fortress, the tactical nukes, the strategic ICBMs. We are pilgrims, exiles, refugees, we are guerrilla warriors in enemy territory armed to the teeth. Our weapons are not of this earth.

    But it is a fight, a very real fight, with the highest possible stakes — souls. It requires manliness, courage, strength, defense, and attack. We do not retreat to femininity, we do not expose our vulnerabilities so that evil might take advantage. Turning the other cheek is a provocation. I stand between the innocent and the evil one, I offer myself through Christ to absorb their hatred and violence and temptation. That’s the true meaning of Matthew 5:39, not the feminized postmodern interpretation that sissifies today’s Christian man.

    Love is the furthest thing from softness, our modern connotative perversions notwithstanding. Deus Caritas Est! God does not love, God is love itself. Love is the power “that moves the sun and the other stars” (“L’amor che muove e sole e l’altre stelle.” — Dante) Love is what inspired the blood of the martyrs, which is the seed of the church. And ours is the Ecclesia Militans.

    I’m sorry SSM for going off on a tangent again, but I’m on my last nerve and this pathetic little bloviating douchebag is dry humping it.

    [ssm: No need to apologize. Say what you need to say.]

    This is a case in point. You are simultaneously deferential out of weakness and spastic out of shame, attempting to make up for your coltish misstep and then apologizing for the failed attempt to be manly.

    You need to rise to the occasion. There is a war on. A literal crusade. There is no time for your soft antics, your shell-shocked swiping at phantoms, or your feminine confusion.

    The victory has already been secured, the outcome assured, our deliverance ready if we but grasp it. But we must unite ourselves to the holy fight, we must offer our best selves to the cause. We fight and die and win and rise in Christ, with Christ, through Christ.

    That means it’s time to put your big-boy boots on, take up a rifle, and stop bickering with the Drill Instructor. We have work to do.

    Love,
    Matt

  249. Matthew King

    Sunshine Mary wrote:

    I had just been thinking yesterday evening that perhaps we would be able to find husbands for our daughters at church and mold them into real men. I should think it would be a relief to young men in many ways.

    In a more practical vein, sex-separated Theology of the Body courses would be useful after Confirmation, which is where the lapse usually begins. We have to present the positive case for chastity*, rather than just negatively reacting to the culture with vapors and smelling salts.

    Getting young men to think seriously about their manhood is something the church is uniquely positioned to do, and no one else is even thinking about doing it (outside of military academies, which have also been infected by the Shannon Faulkner crusades of the world, like every other institution). They would have to be innovated, instituted, and led by rare, unsissified, and faithful men like your husband.

    Losing the Boy Scouts to the faggot agenda was huge. One by one, inch by inch, person by person, the space for boys to grow into men has been claimed by the sexual revolution, i.e., homoeroticized. Therefore one by one, inch by inch, person by person, the space will have to be reclaimed.

    Matt

    * Dude’s been on a roll these last couple days. (He does give some quarter to feminism, but that’s because he’s in a dialogue with Jezebel. His remarks are solid and strategically perceptive.)

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/badcatholic/2013/05/is-the-purity-culture-sexist.html

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/badcatholic/2013/05/virginity-is-sexual.html

  250. dannyfrom504

    i have a technical degree, basically a 2 year degree. i’ve dated women with graduates degrees and bachelors, and whatnot. i cannot recall a single time where we discussed her work. matter of fact, i PREFERRED not to talk about her work. i told one, “i really don’t think i’m qualified to discuss that.” lol.

  251. Anonymoose

    One of the silly people pointed out something that I had tossed in there without stating it clearly enough, so let me fix that.

    I had written: “Some of the things that the ‘am I alpha enough’ crowd obsesses about seem a little silly to me, but I suppose that context is everything.”

    I am not disputing the well-established Game concept that you should never agree to hold a woman’s purse, when she is shit-testing you.

    My point was that you can dispense with a lot of this time-wasting and energy-draining female nonsense, by immediately establishing a “context” or “frame” that renders one aspect of her insecurities totally moot.

    Once you lead her to the our-relationship-position frame of mind that she is wearing a collar and you are holding the leash (notice that I said “her frame of mind”, she does not actually have to be wearing it), then when you hold her purse for a valid reason, she will not even think about it.

    And I think that most of the people here understood that when she agreed to my request, she was agreeing to the general idea that these would be our relative positions from the beginning, and that the full implications were acceptable to her at the end (at permanence, like marriage), and not that she was fully “owned”, instantaneously, from the beginning, with no more effort or validation being required.

    And I never stated my main point explicitly, but rather implicitly, through my stories: in our upside-down world, which amplifies the most destructive female impulses, for a man to get away with being nice to a woman, he first has to put her on a leash, and the most reliable way to get her to believe him, is to do it literally.

  252. Looking Glass

    @Anonymoose:

    Boundaries, once established, are hard to shift. That goes for good and bad ones. Setting good relationship boundaries, at the very start, allows a relationship to work. Boundaries are easily enforced, just not easily changed.

    I got that point pretty easily, but it was lost on most others. It would seem. And I will use the pet shop trip in the future. (It should also be noted that a woman in a pet shop will also gives away a MASSIVE amount of information about herself. What she gravitates towards, how she responds to the animals and what she falls for. Along with how she responds to the environment. A woman that can’t handle some type of pet simply isn’t going to be a good mother.)

  253. Sigyn

    I’m glad to know that shaming is alive and well with you, Anonymoose. Anyone who disagrees with you or calls you out on being a hypocrite is “silly” and also too dim to get the “general idea” of a very inflammatory request. In fact, you’ve rationalized away the (allegedly) one woman who reacted badly to it as having mental problems, and you’re doing the same for the rest of us.

    You are demonstrably wrong. The accepted symbol of permanence and marriage is the ring, whence promise rings and engagement rings. The collar is symbolic of ownership and high levels of control, which is why people put collars on their pet animals and why the BDSM community has them as a symbol, even to the point of having “collaring ceremonies”. You can spin it as hard as you like, but it is what it is. A woman who lets a man do that is symbolically signing herself over unilaterally. A “modestly dressed” woman who does it is announcing that she is just as naughty as the sluts around her if not more so, but somehow also a “good girl” because she’s at least wearing decent clothing.

    Furthermore, I find it interesting that there was only one girl who consented to being collared that you thought was worth keeping–and it was the one you put on a pedestal from the moment you first clapped eyes on her.

    The more you say, the less I believe you.

  254. Lyn87

    SSM,

    We’ve run into each other on other blogs, but this is my first post here.

    I only read the first 40-or-so comments, so I apologize if I’m digging up stuff already covered. My gut feeling to the question is, “No.”

    Here’s my story. My I.Q. has been measured at 163, and I was a geek in high school. I was also small with a horrendous acne problem and an overbite that would have made a toucan jealous. To add insult to injury, I have a mild case of Tourette Syndrome that began at puberty and is still with me today. I couldn’t get a date to save my life.

    Then I went to a military academy, wore braces to fix my teeth and overbite, lost (most) of the acne, buffed up my frame quite a bit, and stared flying itty-bitty jets at absurd rates of speed. I’ve always been confident – by then I was no longer completely invisible to women.

    I never made it to “player” status (I’ve always been a Christian anyway), but I was no longer a hopeless dweeb, either. I found women, but nobody of sufficiently high quality to merit spending the rest of my life with. I joined a Christian dating service and married a farm-girl-turned-nanny with a high school diploma. (My wife literally picked me out of a catalog.) Smart girl – her I.Q. is 141.

    Should girls go to college for an MRS degree? I doubt it. A Christian girl can join a Christian dating service to narrow her search. If she wants to really increase her odds she can attend a doctrinally-sound church with lots of single Christian men – near military bases or Christian colleges are good places to start. If she is pleasant, feminine, and approachable she will probably not lack for attention for very long.

  255. practicallyperfect

    I spent a portion of the morning reading through most of these very well thought out comments and concerns and as the mother of a 21yr old, Christian, non stem major at a state uni, full ride scholar, studying abroad, very cute daughter; I’d like to point out that all of your concerns are relative. In the end it depends on the individual character of your daughters and I would add sons too.
    What matters most is how well you know your child and that means being honest with them and yourself about their innate nature. Only then can you counsel your child when they are making decisions about their futures. My graduation present to my daughter was a Mobius loop necklace with the phrase from Hamlet on it that says “To Thine Own Self Be True.” it is a reminder of the many discussions we had since she was small about how important it was for her to understand her own character. We have always talked about what she was good at and what she wasn’t, what it meant to be a Christian and what it didn’t, what kind of future did she dream of and what was realistic. She knows her failings and her strengths and plays to them she is also grounded in reality. In the end no matter what we wish for her, and as all children are wont to do, she will make and own her choices but in turn will live with the rewards and consequences of them. All we can do as parents is to make sure our children have the tools and information they need to make their choices. Then pray like mad.

    SYK: She is majoring in two languages and intends to be a cross cultural trainer and Interpreter. Meaning she’ll be able to tell you when the Chinese are getting ready to take you and your company over and keep your employees from making costly cultural mistakes. As much as she really wants to be a wife and mother first, she has had no suitors as of yet, so she is working on plan B for now.

    [ssm: Welcome, and thank you for your input.]

  256. Anonymoose

    Oh lordy, Sigyn, you really are dense!

    “In fact, you’ve rationalized away the (allegedly) one woman who reacted badly to it as having mental problems, and you’re doing the same for the rest of us.”

    No, I actually said that her response was “disjointed”, and I never expected a positive response from every one.

    If you ask someone to please pass the ice cream, and she says “no, it is not healthy for you to eat it”, that is a “bad”, but rational reaction.

    But if you ask her for ice cream, and she starts crying about how her parents never wanted to put a swing for her in their back yard, then yeah, there is something else going on.

    “Furthermore, I find it interesting that there was only one girl who consented to being collared that you thought was worth keeping–and it was the one you put on a pedestal from the moment you first clapped eyes on her.”

    Well, yes, my list of what is required for a successful relationship has more than one item.

    You do realize that, for example, verifying that a car has wheels doesn’t make it suitable for everyone, right?

    She was number Five, and yes, the First one that I found worth keeping. And considering how many women most men have to sort through, I still can’t believe that I was that amazingly lucky.

    And no, not a pedestal, and not from the first moment.

    My thesis adviser, the first man who told me about shit-tests and pedestals, also told me this: “the only woman that you should ever keep putting up on your shoulders is the one who keeps placing herself at your feet”.

  257. Deep Strength

    @ Anonymoose

    For what it’s worth I enjoyed your story, and think it was a great idea as a winnowing fork.

  258. Laceagate

    Wow, the comments derailment really made me wonder if this was TC (haha) and interesting thoughts on collars…anyway…

    I have to say first, I disagree with some of what Eih said. I think one of the worst things Christian parents can do is tell their children they have to move out at 18. There has to be a balance involved with teaching your children about hard work, duty, industriousness, and sacrifice without telling them to hit the curb. On the other hand, I don’t think parents telling their children they are required to remain at home until marriage is a necessary mandate that works for all children, either.

    One of the benefits I saw from my own experiences with older Christian people is how they implemented balance with having their daughters in college and having them at home. A good Christian friend of mine sent her daughters away BUT:

    -The school was a very traditional Christian school
    -They had rules regarding interaction between the sexes. Even if you had a boyfriend/girlfriend, you were not allowed to have intimate contact. Not even hugging!
    -Complementarity was upheld and the men and women who went to the school adhered to those principles. From the way they dressed to the way they regarded each other, it was all about actually acting like ladies and gentlemen.
    -The men and women were actually encouraged to intermingle and there were appropriate activities to do that. My friend told me about how the school hosts a couple of formal balls every year. Actual dances where you have to dance, eat a formal dinner, behave decently, etc. To think!

    I recall in high school an older person told me they believed implementing appropriate rules and boundaries while your children were still in your roof was the best, before turning 18. My parents had a rule of “no interacting with boys before 18.” I never dated before then, but most young women will defy their parents anyhow. The way I see it, at least with having your children still in your house before 18, and after 18, they have to abide by your rules and expectations if they want to live there. They have to respect the way they were raised and understand why that way is best. The idea that having a Christian girl suddenly move out upon the magical age of 18 to live with other roommates who will most likely NOT be Christians is asking for trouble. Anecdotally speaking, I’ve seen a good share of Christian women go sour because their parents wanted them to do this, and you can’t wonder why they fell from the faith by the time they were in their mid 20’s. Not to mention, roommates are hardly chaste. It was bothersome to deal with that myself.

  259. Laceagate

    I also think it’s worth noting that finishing schools filled in the place where a young woman had a formal education to go to, but she was educated in a well-rounded way. She was taught the basics of business, etiquette, and domesticity. The idea behind finishing school was to produce a woman who was prepared to enter adult life with her peers in order to meet a potential mate. While she might not have a university education, the basis for some sort of education is still there.

    One thing I saw in this discussion is how many conflated the idea of a an education with the modern university degree. Of course, this touches on the many things currently wrong with the modern k-12 educational system, which is in need for dire overhaul. However, providing children with a well-rounded liberal education is possible by age 18. One woman could have been educated at home, at a rigorous parochial school, or a classical school and could rival or exceed a similar woman with a public school education who gets a college degree. I disagree with the idea that an education in itself is bad for women, not only because I am Catholic, but because well-educated women are able to provide their children with an education themselves. I didn’t see it happen here but often what happens with the “should women go to college?” topic is it digresses into a “women should only learn readin’, writin’, and ‘rithmatic” meme, which doesn’t serve to be any benefit if the goal behind self-education and home-education is to be WELL educated.

    As many others said, I disagree with the idea that college should be a proxy to find a husband. Colleges are for pursuing an education so you can obtain a job in the market and we no longer live in a time where job security exists. It’s not a far stretch to point out how a woman’s college education can be an economic asset to her family if her husband becomes unemployed, even if it’s an associate’s degree. I think for women who believe in getting married young and having a family first and foremost, a college education should be seen as a back-up plan. I think pursuing an associate’s degree is a worthy investment, coupled with the right work experience and paid for appropriately.

  260. Anonymoose

    Thank you, Deep Strength, and all the others who had words of encouragement!

    The levels and types of dominance and intensity that women can often require in order to feel safe and secure enough to relax, and let hidden feminine submissiveness and playfulness out, is something that many men find hard to accept because they cannot empathize with it. It does not work that way for men, so they cannot truly understand it, because it is something that they will never experience.

    And it doesn’t help that women keep denying it, while their actions, responses, and reading and viewing preferences say the opposite.

    Looking Glass mentioned something very, very important: “Boundaries, once established, are hard to shift.” And these boundaries are established almost immediately.

    One part of this boundary is her mindset, and this is a combination of her nature, her childhood, societal influences, recent experiences, and so on. Even when your behavior is alpha, and her behavior shows that she is responding to you as an alpha, trying to identify the actual potential (and limitations) in her mindset can be like trying to push a chain.

    So I came up with the Tao of Moose, to shock her out of her habituation (to kick her hamster to the side, for a moment), and to possibly let her true nature respond. While the limitation of this method is that positive means positive, but negative gives no fundamental information, it can be quite useful for winnowing.

    As is obvious to most, a positive response just means that she is willing to try moving forward with this relative orientation, and that you don’t have to chip away at boundaries from the outside, before you can see if there is actually anything inside.

    What is does not mean is that she has become your mindless slave, immediately and forever, and that you can act like Frank and not get dumped faster than his acolytes can get their panties in a bunch.

  261. Carlotta

    Work at the college. Go to parties at the college. Do missionary or charity work at the college. No cost exposure.
    Get a job in a male dominated industry you find interesting. Get paid to meet prospective mates. I have never understood why more young girls dont work at gyms, gun ranges and hardware stores.
    The women’s comment is ludacris. Please take the top 1oo successful married men and lets see if what she postulates is true. I bet there will be several of the men even with only a HS diploma. It is amazing, every time I see society pictures in the paper it isnt the education of the wife of successful men that is apparent.

  262. AC

    @ Carlotta

    http://www.businessinsider.com/hedge-fund-wives-2010-8?op=1

    let’s see…landscape architect, masters in international relations from Cambridge University, Harvard degree, graduate of Brown University and NYU University, Yale law school and Cambridge University, PhD in Economics, NYU MBA, Carnigie Mellon University

    http://www.forbes.com/2008/07/11/billionaire-wives-club-biz-billies-cx_cv_0711billiewives.html?partner=aol

    The google billionaire’s wives are from Stanford and Yale and Mark Zuckerberg married a classmate at Harvard.

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  264. MInTheGap

    I once had this very same conversation with a girl in college that was attracted to me (I was oblivious to it since I was in a LDR at the time). She was getting Secondary Ed in English, I was getting my Comp Sci degree. My problem was that I couldn’t understand how a man could expect someone that spent so much money on a degree to just throw it away or do nothing with it if their husband asked them to raise the family and homeschool. It seemed very illogical. To her credit, she replied that her training was God’s way of making her ready for whatever He had for her, and she would be pleased to do His will. Still seemed weird to me.

    The LDR broke up because parents were pushing the girl to go through with her degree instead of pursuing a relationship with me because “you don’t know what may happen to him, and you have to have a skill to make money” (or at least that was the excuse).

    I ended up marrying a woman that finished her Associates after we were married, and only because her parents really wanted her to have a degree.

    In my experience, then, it’s been parental pressure to get a degree.

    And lastly, the coolest thing that I ever heard in regards to education came from a history professor at college, when he relayed the story that his wife took classes in his field when they were younger so that she would be able to be conversant in his “language”. It helped to grow the bond, as I’ve found that it’s tough having a world that you cannot share with your spouse because they don’t even know the basics.

  265. Robin Munn

    In this day and age when so much good education is available for free online (many top-notch universities put their course materials online and even put videos of lectures up, so you can get almost* the same experience as the students sitting in the class), there’s no reason why a woman who gets married right out of high school couldn’t educate herself, and have marketable job skills as insurance against her husband’s death or disability. The justification these parents are making for their pressure might have been accurate in their day, but it’s no longer accurate. Their mental model is that of the 70’s, or the 80’s, but today’s educational opportunities have completely changed the equation.

    * Except that you can’t interrupt the professor to ask him to clarify a point you’re misunderstanding. On the other hand, you also won’t be distracted by the idiots in the row behind you talking so loudly you can’t hear the prof. Lose a little, win a little more.

  266. Caitlin

    This is a pretty painful read. I don’t consider myself a feminist, and in many cases I am anti-college education for men and for women. I am also against the federal funding of private education, and in my ideal world, my tax dollars would not have been spent on your undergraduate degree. But to get to my point: I disagree with much of what you have said here.

    The fact of the matter is that as parents, we must be able and willing to honor the requests of our daughters. When we have raised them properly and given them the ability to make sound, responsible decisions (which is the greatest gift any parent can impart upon their children), they will tell us whether they would like to go to college, what they would like to study, or if they plan to become a young housewife. The idea that we “send” them to college, and even go as far as to choose their course of study, is primitive.

    On the subject of whether men with higher education tend to choose life partners with similar levels of education, I find the answer to be unequivocally yes. To say that a man with several degrees is separated from his un-schooled counterpart only by his education is short-sighted. There are statistical correlations between education and atheism, as well as liberalism, that may help to inform who this man is. A statistical group that is more likely to be atheist and liberal would infrequently choose to pick a bride from a statistical group that is more likely to be religious and conservative.

  267. Paul

    SSM,

    I have to admit (as a Christian man) this post was painful to read. Hurtful even.

    Yes I do think you might have stolen from taxpayers for your degree from Michigan as did your friend working on her MRS degree. The University of Michigan takes only 15% (as you said) so someone who may have wanted to take that education and add to the GDP of this nation, they were denied so that you could find a husband. What’s worse, you took taxpayer grants, so taxpayer dollars underwrote your search for Mr Right.

    I don’t know if I’d call what you did “criminal behavior” but is most certainly isn’t Christian. I love your blog and your posts but seriously, you know better than this. Shame on you.

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  270. Helen Manbeck

    I am concerned, confused, and slightly resentful… The comments I have been reading here seem to lean toward anti-education if the education were not “used” in a “proper” manner. Why does a college education only have to be used outside of marriage and child-rearing? I have a 4 year degree and used it in my job in Human Resources before marriage. I now have three children and use that education and work experience to aid me every day while raising them.

    Pro-religion shouldn’t mean anti-education..

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  273. GRAD STUDENT Lauren

    As a Christ-following, female graduate student of social work, I am ashamed, appalled, and sick to my stomach over this series of insanely ignorant posts. I feel sorry for you, Sunshine Mary. But more than feeling sorry for you and your pathetic set of oppressive, backwards ideas, I feel sorry that your daughters are also be imprisoned by your stupidity. Comparing women to cows? Calling them “prime breeding stock”? Pretending that women were put on this earth for the sole purpose of finding and pleasing a man? What of service in singleness?! What of the fact that Christ and all His disciples were single? What of compassion for people outside our biological families?! What of the great commission to go out into the world? What of the parable in which Christ tells us that what we do for the least of these, we do for Him and what we DON’T do for the least of these, we DON’T do for him? You spit in His face with your narrow-minded lies. I live every day of my life trying to serve others, and if I do that as a single woman for the rest of my life than I am beyond proud to serve as a single woman. If I meet a worthy partner to serve alongside me, than I will be beyond proud to serve Christ as a married woman. But I thank JESUS for the opportunity to have a Bachelor’s degree. I thank JESUS that I got to study abroad in Uganda and open my eyes to real world issues that actually matter (unlike this harmful nonsense you speak here). I thank JESUS that I did anti-trafficking work in India with IJM. I thank JESUS that I served low-income students for the last two years and helped them get into college. And I thank JESUS that I am studying at the top social work school right now. My education and all the experiences it has afforded have only made me a stronger servant with a bigger heart, a smarter brain, and a set of really incredible skills. Service to Christ, seeking Justice, and pursuing growth opportunities are infinitely more important than marital status. Shame on you for being so blind. Shame on you. You disgust me.

  274. Carlos

    Or, how about this:

    Tell young girls they are free to make their own choices. Whether that means prioritizing having a husband (or wife) and children, or having a career? Women are more than an accessory to a husband. But if you want a so-called “traditional” life, go for it. Just don’t pretend as though that should be the only choice, or the best choice, for all women everywhere. It’s disingenuous and slightly disturbing.

  275. sunshinemary Post author

    @ GRAD STUDENT Lauren

    As a Christ-following, female graduate student of social work, I am ashamed, appalled, and sick to my stomach over this series of insanely ignorant posts.

    and

    Pretending that women were put on this earth for the sole purpose of finding and pleasing a man?

    yet

    7 For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. 9 Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10 That is why a wife ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. (1 Corinthians 11:7-10)

    and

    18 Then the Lord God said, “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him.” The man gave names to all livestock and to the birds of the heavens and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper fit for him. 21 So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh. 22 And the rib that the Lord God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man. 23 Then the man said,

    “This at last is bone of my bones
    and flesh of my flesh;
    she shall be called Woman,
    because she was taken out of Man.”
    24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. (Genesis 2:18, 21-24)

    while in Luke 6:46, Jesus Himself says

    “Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?

    Can you explain in what sense you are a “follower” of Christ?

  276. Farm Boy

    As a Christ-following, female graduate student of social work, I am ashamed, appalled, and sick to my stomach

    There was a women posting here yesterday who had the same symptoms. The vapors must be contagious.

  277. Farm Boy

    series of insanely ignorant posts

    Are they ignorant, or is it just that you disagree with them? SSM and the commenters around here are very well informed about what is truly happening in the world.

  278. Farm Boy

    I feel sorry that your daughters are also be imprisoned by your stupidity

    But will they be happier and more fulfilled than you?

  279. Farm Boy

    set of really incredible skills

    All young women seem to have lots of “incredible” stuff. I look forward to this generation putting all previous generations to shame with their accomplishments

  280. Farm Boy

    the best choice,

    It probably is the best choice for most women. Of course some will want to do other things, and good for them. However, choices that work well for the very large majority should be encouraged.

  281. Cicero

    @ GRAD STUDENT Lauren
    “If I meet a worthy partner to serve alongside me, than I will be beyond proud to serve Christ as a married woman.”
    Sorry to burst your self righteous bubble (okay maybe not) but the Bible says that wifes are suppose to work along side and support their husbands. Not the other way around. Then again these new feel good churches and their doctrines teach UNBIBLICAL doctrine.
    You should pray for clarity, wisdom and understanding of the living Word before you read the Bible in order to understand God’s will ………..not yours.

  282. A Northern Observer

    Service to Christ, seeking Justice, and pursuing growth opportunities are infinitely more important than marital status.

    Actually, no –

    Because the LORD was a witness between you and the wife of your youth, to whom you have been faithless, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant.  Did not one God make her? Both flesh and spirit are his. And what does the one God desire? Godly offspring. So look to yourselves, and do not let anyone be faithless to the wife of his youth.
    Mal 2:14–15

  283. Cicero

    @ GRAD STUDENT Lauren.
    Regarding education. Getting a degree or diploma does make you educated.However all it does is show that you were able to regurgitate the information that you have been brain washes in to believe is true, in such a way that the educator believes to be sufficient. That is it. Now you think because you know something about a very small issue in a very big world you are better of than the person that goes to a library and checks out book written by different individuals and reading different subjects. How ignorant and prejudice you are.
    Education is downloading someone else’s program as the only working example (aka brainwashing/re-education). Learning is is taking information and writing your own program(aka knowledge/insight).
    So those who say education is somehow something God wants. You might want to think again.
    He wants us to learn not be educated.

  284. Farm Boy

    studying at the top social work school right now

    I stand humbled.

    Why don’t you mosey over to the current thread about minorities and marriage and give us your take?

  285. GRAD STUDENT Lauren

    @SSM, you asked me in what sense I’m a follower of Christ (no quotation marks necessary around follower. I follow Him.). I will resist the temptation to give you my entire life story, my whole testimony, to list all of my brothers and sisters in Christ who have loved/taught me along the way, and all the twists and turns that Christ has helped me through. I will resist this because I’m pretty sure that you are already convinced that salvation cannot belong to a forward thinking feminist like myself. But I know my heart; people who love me know my heart; the people I serve know my heart; CHRIST knows my heart. So, I actually don’t care if you want to question my relationship with Jesus. You’re entitled to do that, but let me at least give you the short story: I was raised by a strong mother who loved my father with inspiring strength and raised us with great care! But she also devoted herself to being a professor of music and the director of our church choir. I saw her serving Christ, loving my father, caring dearly for us, and using her incredible intelligence/passion to further her career. I learned more from her and love her more than I could ever properly describe. I have been surrounded by women with Christ in their heart, a dude by their side, and a career under their belt. I also know quite a few incredibly strong, Christ-loving SINGLE women. Some of these women have opted to stay single despite relational possibilities, some of them simply haven’t met a man that they feel called to marry. I think it’s really important that Grace, Love, and Opportunity that Christ offers don’t get ripped away from women simply because they are not attached to a man. That’s not only lacking in compassion, but it’s just not scriptural. I encourage you to re-read Paul’s caution in 1 Corinthians 7, especially verses 32-35: “32 I would like you to be free from concern. An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord’s affairs—how he can please the Lord. 33 But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world—how he can please his wife— 34 and his interests are divided. An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord’s affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world—how she can please her husband. 35 I am saying this for your own good, not to restrict you, but that you may live in a right way in undivided devotion to the Lord.” I encourage you to remember all the strong women throughout church history – women who served with such inspiring passion – women to whom Christ talked and with whom, He walked – women that became leaders in the church. Rachel Held Evans has a really great blog on these women leaders: http://rachelheldevans.com/blog/mutuality-women-leaders. She also writes a really great post regarding Titus 2 and how it’s been misused and abused: http://rachelheldevans.com/blog/men-titus-2-treatment. Since you’re obviously a serious blogger, you should check out a fellow blogger’s opinions on these matter.

    I know that we will never fully agree on what role women should play and I do apologize for lashing out so harshly in my original post. But please don’t pick out random scriptures that please your sensibilities and threaten my relationship with Christ because I could do the same thing to you. We could do that for years and years and years. I could talk about the fact that Scripture has FAR more to say about serving the poor than it says about marriage (or any theme, for that matter). I could cite all the times that we are called to live outside the domestic sphere – to give up all we have (i.e. Matthew 19:21 – “Jesus answered, ‘If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.'”) – to leave our families behind (i.e. Luke 9:57-62, especially 61-62: “Still another said, ‘I will follow you, Lord; but first let me go back and say goodbye to my family.’ 62 Jesus replied, ‘No one who puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God.'”) – to seek justice for those in need (i.e. Isaiah 1:17 “Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.”).

    And in doing all that, I would most definitely feel like I have a better, more compassionate, more Truthful perspective on scripture than you do. But then you would cite your passages and probably feel that you see things in a more Truth light than I do. The result would probably be a pointless merry-go-round. So let’s get off the merry-go-round. I love Christ. I really do. And as a result of that love for Him, I also love people, especially disempowered people. You see, I want to devote the rest of my life to serving/empowering women who’ve been FORCED into prostitution/human trafficking. I feel very strongly about helping free women from exploitation/abuse. The reason I had such a visceral reaction to this blog post is because I deemed it de-valuing to women. When women become second rate citizens, less important than men, then exploiting them becomes exponentially easier. These values and ideas here (i.e. comparing women to cows) are dehumanizing and disrespectful to God’s beautiful creation. I will never be okay with that.

    Education is anti-trafficking work. Teaching young girls/women that they should speak LOUDLY and be HEARD is anti-trafficking work. Promoting the careers/future opportunities of young women is anti-trafficking work. SO, basically everything I feel called by CHRIST to do goes against everything you posited here. I don’t ask you to agree with my positions, I just ask that you would keep abused/exploited women in mind when you write things like this and ask yourself: “How am I being the Hands and Feet of God for the least of these by writing this stuff?”

  286. GRAD STUDENT Lauren

    @ Cicero, I agree that a sad amount of formal education involves a lot of informational regurgitation! You’re right that having a degree, or a string of degrees, doesn’t necessarily make you intelligent or creative. I totally support going to the library to do independent learning! Absolutely! I think our entire lives should be spent learning, learning, learning. I just wanted to say that the degree I’m pursuing right now involves a lot of independent thought, creative idea development/problem solving, a bit of regurgitation (i.e. the NASW code of ethics, etc), and a GREAT deal of practical service to the community. I feel blessed to be a part of such an all-encompassing learning environment, and didn’t mean to come across haughty or conceited. I promise. I want to do the best I can to use my educational opportunities to serve others.
    @ A Northern Observer, I fail to see how that piece of scripture refutes my point. I still believe that seeking Justice is infinitely more important to our Lord than who we said “I do” to.
    @ Farm Boy, since you’re curious about what accomplishments will come from women having skills…when I use my independent learning, my education, and my skills to serve those in need, accomplish great things, and FIRST/FOREMOST Glorify God, I’ll write a book about it and dedicate it to you.

  287. FuzzieWuzzie

    GRAD STUDENT Lauren, Farm Boy’s invitation to mosey over to the current thread was offered in earnest, not sarcasm. Oftentimes we have feminists comment and it quickly devolves. You’ve demonstrated that you can engage in a respectful discussion. Your participation may help. Who knows?
    By the way, we like cows here. You can’t say an unkind thing about them.

  288. girlwithadragonflytattoo

    “As a Christ-following, female graduate student of social work, I am ashamed, appalled, and sick to my stomach over this series of insanely ignorant posts. I feel sorry for you, Sunshine Mary. But more than feeling sorry for you and your pathetic set of oppressive, backwards ideas, I feel sorry that your daughters are also be imprisoned by your stupidity. Comparing women to cows? Calling them “prime breeding stock”? Pretending that women were put on this earth for the sole purpose of finding and pleasing a man? What of service in singleness?! What of the fact that Christ and all His disciples were single? What of compassion for people outside our biological families?! What of the great commission to go out into the world? What of the parable in which Christ tells us that what we do for the least of these, we do for Him and what we DON’T do for the least of these, we DON’T do for him? You spit in His face with your narrow-minded lies. I live every day of my life trying to serve others, and if I do that as a single woman for the rest of my life than I am beyond proud to serve as a single woman. If I meet a worthy partner to serve alongside me, than I will be beyond proud to serve Christ as a married woman. But I thank JESUS for the opportunity to have a Bachelor’s degree. I thank JESUS that I got to study abroad in Uganda and open my eyes to real world issues that actually matter (unlike this harmful nonsense you speak here). I thank JESUS that I did anti-trafficking work in India with IJM. I thank JESUS that I served low-income students for the last two years and helped them get into college. And I thank JESUS that I am studying at the top social work school right now. My education and all the experiences it has afforded have only made me a stronger servant with a bigger heart, a smarter brain, and a set of really incredible skills. Service to Christ, seeking Justice, and pursuing growth opportunities are infinitely more important than marital status. Shame on you for being so blind. Shame on you. You disgust me.”

    Wow, there is a lot of hate in this post! I think SSM’s idea of college and women being educated was taken out of context… and doesn’t deserve the harsh words that this woman gave. I’ve been reading her posts for a few weeks now, and I believe I can tell she definitely does not view her daughters as cattle, hence the very reason and purpose behind this original post! To find out, sincerely, the effects and benefits of college for (correct me if I’m wrong) her strong willed daughter especially. Her post seemed thoughtful and pensive, not judgmental and demanding that all women are purposed to please a man. Goodness!

    However, Grad-student Lauren is just speaking from her strong convictions here (when you get past the hate), and they aren’t necessarily wrong, you know, things like serving in your singleness. Not all women get married, and I know some very good pastors that would agree that some women seem to have the “gift of singleness”?? [This was never my gift. lol,] When they don’t get married they really are more able to do those things like she has done (which are quite remarkable may I add). When you aren’t married with children (or pregnant), it truly is easier to take on India and Uganda… and that is wonderful, however, being married with children doesn’t PREVENT you from this either… I know many happily married with children, and/or pregnant missionary wives. They are living the dream of both worlds… doing things for Jesus and being a wonderful wife and mother. College has little to do with what you can do for God, I’m sure SSM believes that as well.

    And Grad Student Lauren, this is not the way to get your point across, SSM was in no way attacking your personal witness or ability to be a valuable woman in your singleness, so the fact that you jump to that assumption is from your own insecurity or issues. Your post shows more hate than love… which is so against what Jesus would’ve wanted in our reactions with each other. I understand your sentiments to a certain degree, but you are going about it the wrong (and completely unfeminine) way. Ponder on 1 John 4:7-20 …. I’ll include excerpts since some don’t have Bibles:

    “Love consists in this: not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Dear friends, if God loved us in this way, we also MUST LOVE one another. No one has ever seen God. If we love one another, God remains in us and His love is perfected in us.

    … “In this, love is perfected with us so that we may have *confidence* in the day of judgment; for we are as He is in this world.
    There is NO fear in love, instead, *perfect love drives out fear,* because fear involves punishment. So the one who fears has not reached perfection in love.

    We love because He first loved us.”

    Basically, we love others even if they may have differing opinions than ours because we remain humble enough to remember that we ourselves are in no way, perfect, never will be, and extend grace to others. Be a woman of grace, and not one of harsh shaming words.

  289. Farm Boy

    I’ll write a book about it and dedicate it to you.

    Wow. Great. That is more than my ex ever did for me.

  290. FuzzieWuzzie

    Farm Boy, I am trying to be not so repetitive in my vidideo links but, when Lauren kept repeating that line about comparing women to cows, I couldn’t resist. That is a fun video! I wonder if lauren will ever return to appreciate it?

    Girlwithadragonflytattoo, your response to Lauren was the epitome of grace. Two points!

  291. FuzzieWuzzie

    GradStudentLauren, you should feel honored. SSM doesn’t roll out the red carpet for just anybody. That goes double for naive, silly, idealistic, old bears.

    Farm Boy, I had roommate who played that album over and over. I seem to rember the lyrics being different.
    “I am woman, hear me roar,
    In umbers too big to ignore.”

  292. GRAD STUDENT Lauren

    @ Girl with the dragonfly tattoo, I agree that my first post was written hastily and nastily. It was anger, not hate, that fueled it…but I can see how one could interpret it that way. I feel very strongly about this, because I not only disagree with these views, I find them oppressive. Please refer to my second comment to get a little more context (and a calmer tone).
    @FuzzieWuzzie & Farm Boy, thanks for the invite to the other thread. If I have time, I will maybe go check it out and probably ruffle some feathers over there. (I love feather-ruffling.)
    @SSM, if you saw my reading list for my classes, you would understand why I will have to politely decline the offer to your book club activity. I will definitely be reading Feminine Mystique in its entirety someday, but there’s no way in God’s good green earth that I’ll be reading it with a bunch of people who openly hate feminism and think it’s responsible for bringing down the modern family. Uh-uh. I could not disagree with your positions more, and I don’t see the point in walking straight into something that will make me more ashamed of the female chauvinist movement within the church. Thanks for the invite, though.
    @ everybody, if you want a great faith-based perspective on why we should empower women and decrease their chances of being caught up in all this discrimination and the exploitation that comes from belittling women…you should read “The White Umbrella” by Mary Frances Bowley. SSM, maybe you can add this to your book club list.

  293. JDG

    Lauren did you make your way here from Jezebel’s? If so, WOW! just wow.

    What of the great commission to go out into the world?

    This is the part people remember:
    “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,”

    This is the part almost no one seems to remember:
    teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.
    And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

    The roles of men and women have been made very clear in scripture, but ‘edumacated’ folks like to pass over those unpopular verses while accusing those who take the whole Word of God as truth of all kinds of evils. Shame on you and those like you who twist the word of God for evil purpose.

    What of the parable in which Christ tells us that what we do for the least of these, we do for Him and what we DON’T do for the least of these, we DON’T do for him?

    Exactly where do you see Christ advocating turning our young women into ‘strong’ ‘independent’ ‘sexually empowered’ little Jezebel clones? That is exactly what is happening to many of the daughters of Christians who go to universities in Western nations. And you would have more of it.

    “Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me, but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.”

    You spit in His face with your narrow-minded lies.

    God will judge who is spitting and lying and who is faithful.

    I think you should go to the kitchen and make a sammich.
    Making a sammich can be empowering and productive for a woman.

  294. Cicero

    @ GRAD STUDENT Lauren:
    Well do you need a degree to help out a community? You made it clear that you are a “forward thinking feminist” . So forward think this question. Who compiles the curriculum in order to bring about a set step by step plan for a “better” society through social change?
    “None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe that they are free”
    Case in point- You came out firing like all the other feminists against a fellow Christian woman when you thought your ideology was being questioned. All that social sciences do is bring about social change as envisaged by those who compile the curriculum. You can not serve two masters. So always question the material that you are being educated with, what you are being educated for and by whom you are being educated.
    Like I said in my first post to you. You should pray for clarity,wisdom and understanding of the living Word before you read the Bible in order to understand God’s will……… not yours. That is how you show your love to God, other wise you are doing it in order to make yourself feel better.

  295. GRAD STUDENT Lauren

    @ Cicero, plenty of people can serve their communities without an MSW (or any other master’s degree, for that matter). I never said that they couldn’t. But I have a really specific type of service I wanted to provide. I want to work with women and girls who’ve been trafficked/forced into prostitution. I will be serving people who have been severely traumatized by abuse that’s nearly unimaginable; therefore, it is really important that I have a trauma-informed approach and it would be IRRESPONSIBLE for me to go into this uneducated. Because I had the opportunities, the interest/passion, and the support, I decided to pursue higher education to better learn how to serve this population. That was my choice, after a lot of prayer and guidance. Nobody made me do it, and I never meant to say that everyone else has to learn in exactly the same ways! Please refrain from hurling judgments onto my professors, advisor, and practicum supervisor. They are compassionate, concerned, brilliant people who are taking real steps to train us to better serve others. (Good golly, I never thought I should have to work so hard to convince people of the possible merits of studying social work. This is moderately ridiculous.) Another thing you can refrain from is telling me repeatedly to pray for clarity, wisdom, and understanding. Thanks for your concern, though! I actually do that all the time! You should, too. Perhaps your perception of God’s will isn’t perfect either. But thanks for telling me that I do what I do to make myself feel better! Gosh, you know me so well. Where else could I get such great advice?
    @ JDG, thanks for the suggestion. I actually make a pretty mean sammich. Sammiches are my favorite, especially when it comes to fueling me up to be a strong, independent woman. (Please note, I never once brought up sexual promiscuity in any of my posts.) If it wasn’t so obnoxious, I’d think it pretty hilarious that that was your advice. But it’s just not funny to me. It’s insulting. I didn’t mean to attack the domestic sphere and I think it is DEFINITELY a job to raise children, and a noble one at that. I know that my first post was over the top and it probably came across as very much of an attack on women who want to marry young and be housewives/mothers. It was not my intent to slap judgment on that lifestyle choice. It WAS my intent, however, to get people to stop slapping judgment on strong, articulate, formally educated women. I just don’t think women deserve ANY judgment for wanting a good “edumacation” (as you so aptly put it) that they can/will use! I think women should be able to choose whether to pursue an education, a career, and/or whether to get married young, old, or not at all. I thank the Lord that my parents were loving, caring, and insightful enough to let all four of their kids pursue their purpose in Christ. I praise Jesus that my mother taught me to be strong and passionate, to speak up for myself, and to always remember that my worth lies in more than just my sandwich making abilities.

  296. Cicero

    @ GRAD STUDENT Lauren.
    And where did I state that you should not do the degree or even stop your studies? Where did I pass judgment on your educators? Where did I say that one should not be prepared when taking on a cause? The road to hell is paved with good intentions. However you are claiming that your degree is more capable of teaching you how to serve than the Word of God.
    There are maxims that state: “He who questions well learns well”, “He who distinguishes well learns well”, “Let him who wishes to be deceived be deceived”.
    All I did is tell you to question well and distinguish well in order not to be deceived.
    And what do you do………what every self-righteous feminist does when their ideology is questioned. Attack the person with outright aggressive behaviour (like with SSM) or passive aggressive sarcasm.
    You want unity I want the truth. The truth by its very nature is exclusive. And God is the Way the Light and the Truth.

  297. JDG

    You wouldn’t find it insulting if your mind wasn’t poisoned with feminism. Everything you have written here is all about what you want to do, and how you want to do it. You really should take cisero’s advice. You are sailing your own ship and telling yourself it’s God.

  298. A Northern Observer

    @ A Northern Observer, I fail to see how that piece of scripture refutes my point. I still believe that seeking Justice is infinitely more important to our Lord than who we said “I do” to.

    At least I cited scripture – where’s your supporting citation?

  299. Ton

    Its not the vapors Farm Boy but their whoremoans. They are upset they don’t have a man that makes them moan like a whore. Women always want the oppsite of what they say. In this case she is bitching about women being oppressed etc knowing full well oppression etc gets them wet.

  300. Farm Boy

    I get feisty too when something bothers me.

    When that happens, you should count to ten and then go make your man a sammich.

  301. A Northern Observer

    In this case she is bitching about women being oppressed etc knowing full well oppression etc gets them wet.

    With all due respect Ton, there’s a hell of a difference between human trafficking and slavery and the kind of “oppression” you’re referring to.

  302. GRAD STUDENT Lauren

    @ girlwithadragonflytattoo, I’m glad I’m not the only one who gets feisty!:) Thanks for reading my second post and for responding. I really appreciate it! Really.
    @NorthernObserver, please read my second post for several scriptural references. Also, thank you for responding to Ton after his horrifyingly false comment.
    @Cicero, you say that I have misread your posts, but I also believe you are misreading mine. I never said that my degree was more capable than God or His word. Never. Not even sort of. I believe that God is working on me through this degree. I believe that His word means more to me now that I’ve actually served under-resourced communities. His face has come to life in the faces of people I’ve met. Call me aggressive; it’s true sometimes. Call me passive aggressive; it was sort of true in my last post. But do not call me self-righteous, please. You actually know very little about me and about my life. I said that impolitely in my last post to you, but at the heart of it I just want to beg you to not judge my everlasting soul. It’s hurtful. I recognize that perhaps I was angry and hurtful in my first post, that’s why I have sincerely tried to tone it down. But recognize that everyone here is attacking me with very little knowledge of who I am and, in my opinion, very little care for what I’m doing with my life. I know y’all think ill of me, but I promise I am trying to do the best I can to follow, serve and glorify Christ.
    @ Ton… Shame on you for spouting such offensive, disgusting lies. How DARE you talk to me about “whore moans.” How DARE you compare the sexual assault of MILLIONS of women all over the world, all throughout history, to a pleasurable sexual experience. How would you like it if someone brutally raped you, burned cigarettes on your flesh, beat you upside the head with a 2×4, shoved glass up inside of you and then said “you know full well that oppression gets you wet” ?!? All of those horrible acts have been done to one of the survivors that I know. Those are real acts of oppression against women, and there are a million more brutal acts that I could list here. I’m sad for any woman who ever comes in contact with you. I’m a feminist because I want to do anything I can to help women out of these sorts of abusive situations – a task no one should ever be so critical of. I’m a feminist because I’ve met women who’ve endured these sorts of things and I KNOW that God loves them and thinks they deserve rescue & restoration. My heart is actually in pain from reading what you just said. Go read up on human trafficking/forced prostitution before you make idiotic, harmful statements like the one you made just now. And do the world a favor, shut up until you know what you’re talking about.

  303. FuzzieWuzzie

    Lauren, I thought you might be done with us. I do have a few qualms about your chosen field. Without the common experience, how can you hope to gain the trust of the people you work with? Aren’t you afraid that you may come off as a naive do-gooder?

  304. JDG

    but I promise I am trying to do the best I can to follow, serve and glorify Christ.

    Then know this, nothing good will come from an ideology (feminism) that is so opposed to God and His teachings. Do you not know that marriage and the hierarchy within marriage is a type of the marriage between Christ and His Church?
    1Cor 11: 3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.

    And no you don’t have to marry, but you will never be a man. Women are not the same as men and can not / should not always do the same things as men. Somethings only men should do, and other things only women should do. We are not interchangeable.

    Follow Him and him alone. Empty the cup that was filled with secular ‘wisdom’ and be filled with the Spirit of the living God. May you always put Christ before any worldly teaching.

    PS: Don’t get so offended when a man asks you to make a sammich. It’s just a sammich, and a little humility goes a long way.

  305. GRAD STUDENT Lauren

    @ FuzzieWuzzie, you mean you have qualms with all of the social work field? It’s a bit odd to feel that way and I’d love for you to expand on that a bit. And as for being naive do-gooder, I’m not naive and I have no desire to be a mere “do-gooder.” I know a lot about the issue of human trafficking, not from personal experience but from seeing it on the field and from hearing arresting/horrifying stories from survivors. I’ve been researching it for nearly a decade now. “Do-gooders” take time on Saturday afternoon to help a person out. This isn’t just a Saturday activity for me; it isn’t blind charity. This is my life. Christ be praised.
    @JDG, I’m sorry your understanding of feminism is so skewed. I genuinely feel bad for you that you don’t understand that Christ’s inclusion of women within His own ministry was an act of feminism! GASP!! Too bad for you and your narrow framework/lack of compassion for half the world (women). He talked to women nobody else talked to, He drew lines in the sand to protect women nobody else wanted to protect, He chose to appear first in His resurrected form to WOMEN. That’s why Christ is my hero; He revolutionized things. Instead of making asinine requests for sandwiches (as you continue to do), He actually asked the women to come OUT of the kitchen, stop worrying about preparations and start listening to His teachings! Re-read that passage in the Gospels, please. You want to spit *ish about hierarchical marriages, then let’s talk about Christ’s marriage to the church — let’s talk about Him getting on His hands and knees to wash His disciples’ feet!! Let’s talk about His willingness to lay down and die. Let’s talk about the fact that plenty of men want ALL the power and NONE of the responsibility. I’ve met countless men who seek to control- who get off on power tripping – and have no love in their hearts. Yet when Christ came here, He passed the cup of control to His Father and did not manifest Himself in a dominant form. You can worship Paul all day long. You can live a first century lifestyle, but keep in mind you are probably breaking a million of those rules and regulations. I worship Christ and I live under His Words. I’m not trying to live under a curse that falls exponentially heavier on women. Christ came to free us. So sorry you haven’t caught up. I’m not asking to be a man, nor do I think that my body or brain functions the same as a man’s. Thank Heavens it doesn’t. But keep in mind, my friend, that equality isn’t the same as interchangeability. I’m not asking that women become men or vice versa, I’m asking that women be treated with the same respect as men and have the same opportunities to do what they feel called to do. My cup is FILLED with CHRIST, and my spirit is FILLED with CHRIST. That’s precisely why I’m a Freaking Freedom Fighter.

  306. OffTheCuff

    Chrisitan feminists are hilarious.

    Maybe I’m crazy, but I imagine Jesus himself might probably be concerned with all the suffering in the world, instead of *only* ever considering women’s suffering.

    But that’s a silly atheist’s understanding, and we admittedly don’t know very much.

  307. FuzzieWuzzie

    Lauren, You came back! As for you’re being a naive do-gooder, presuming your background would all acedemic theory, I am fearful for you trying to apply in the real world. It’s ugly out there. Exposure to that will change you and I doubt that it will be for the good.

  308. GRAD STUDENT Lauren

    @ Off the Cuff, I also think that Jesus cares about all suffering, regardless of the gender of the sufferer! Feminism is about achieving equality! It has also been expanded to encompass achieving equality for anyone who is being oppressed, not just women. Read up on recent feminist theory. It’s really interesting!
    @ FuzzieWuzzie, it seems you didn’t actually read my last post, so let me repeat myself and expand things a bit. Along with 10 years of research, I’ve also been doing anti-trafficking field work for 5 years. I’ve been on operations to help my teammates rescue bonded labor slaves in India and I’ve met survivors of forced prostitution in Chennai, Kolkata, Minneapolis, St. Paul, Washington DC, St Louis, and San Francisco. I’m working with a Victim’s Services Unit right now, helping victims/survivors of sexual assault through their trial process. Don’t feel like you need to warn me about ugliness and exposure. I’ve seen it, and of course it changed me! It made fiery and passionate about doing anti-trafficking work. I don’t think Christ asks us to be insulated and sheltered; it’s pretty difficult to serve the least of these inside of suburban homes surrounded by white picket fences. Don’t doubt the goodness of exposure to injustice that actually motivates a pursuit of justice. That’s my life/faith, yo.

  309. Michelle

    Lauren,

    I wasn’t going to respond to any of your comments here, but I got to wondering- how do you reconcile feminism with Christianity? It sounds like you do very important, altruistic work and I commend you for that. Do you think that “feminism” is the only reason you are able to do this type of work? There are generations of Catholic nuns that managed to do similar work under the headship of Christ, not feminism.

    Are you pro-choice? And if so, why? If not, how can you yoke yourself with a group that pushes for unlimited access to abortion? How do you feel about voluntary sex work? I have heard some feminists arguing that legalizing prostitution would help women; are you one of those?

  310. Ton

    #1) I am a man. I dare to to do as I wish
    #2) it’s the truth. Women love their oppressors. Being “oppressed” is what women were designed for.

  311. JDG

    @JDG, I’m sorry your understanding of feminism is so skewed.

    Here is a glimpse into feminism from the horse’s mouth(s) so to speak:
     “I feel that ‘man-hating’ is an honourable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them.” – Robin Morgan, Ms. Magazine Editor
     “To call a man an animal is to flatter him; he’s a machine, a walking dildo.” -– Valerie Solanas
     “I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig.” — Andrea Dworkin
     “Rape is nothing more or less than a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all women in a state of fear” — Susan Brownmiller
     “The more famous and powerful I get the more power I have to hurt men.” — Sharon Stone
     “In a patriarchal society, all heterosexual intercourse is rape because women, as a group, are not strong enough to give meaningful consent.” — Catherine MacKinnon
     “The proportion of men must be reduced to and maintained at approximately 10% of the human race.” — Sally Miller Gearhart
     “Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience.” – Catherine Comins
     “All men are rapists and that’s all they are” — Marilyn French
     “Probably the only place where a man can feel really secure is in a maximum security prison, except for the imminent threat of release.” — Germaine Greer.

    Kelly Mac sums it up nicely:
    “If you’re going to say feminism is not a man-hating movement, I’m going to have to insist that you provide links either to sites showing feminists condemning the statements listed above, or feminists telling women to respect men as men.”

    I genuinely feel bad for you that you don’t understand that Christ’s inclusion of women within His own ministry was an act of feminism! GASP!! Too bad for you and your narrow framework/lack of compassion for half the world (women).

    I think it is wonderful if in deed you are truly serving Christ. But in my compassion less narrow minded view I am concerned because you are incredibly misinformed in regards to the teachings of our Lord and his apostles.

    It actually sounds like you have succumbed to feminist theology. Feminist theology teaches that God is not male, God does not exist in a Trinitarian form, Jesus was a feminist, and the true history of women was edited out of the Bible.

    These are lies of the highest magnitude, and I hope this is not what you are advocating. Feminism has nothing to do with the ministry of Jesus Christ our Lord. Feminists would have you believe that the Word of God is null and void to advance their own agenda. Feminism is a hateful ideology that seeks to empower women at the expense of everyone else.

    As John MacArther so aptly puts it,

    “Satan delights in wreaking havoc on the church. He twists the truth on every issue, creating doctrinal confusion wherever he can.
    He has been particularly successful in distorting the roles God has designed for men and women. Over the years, the cultural ideal of gender role equality has seeped into many churches—and Christians have bought into it.

    In many congregations, men sit back and relax while women preach the Word and lead the church. In fact, it is alarming to see how comfortable Christians have become with adopting the standards of the world.”

    Sadly feminism has infiltrated many congregations and ‘Christian’ universities.

    He talked to women nobody else talked to, He drew lines in the sand to protect women nobody else wanted to protect, He chose to appear first in His resurrected form to WOMEN.

    Christ did many wonderful things for men, women, and children during His earthly ministry, but He did not come here to change the social norms of society or to empower women or any other ‘victim’ group. If he had then why didn’t He abolish slavery or put an end to Roman rule over the children of Israel? Why doesn’t the Bible give any examples of this ‘feminism’ of which you speak?

    Instead we see that God maintains His created order.

    1 Tim 2: 11 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. 15 Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.

    That’s why Christ is my hero; He revolutionized things. Instead of making asinine requests for sandwiches (as you continue to do), He actually asked the women to come OUT of the kitchen, stop worrying about preparations and start listening to His teachings!

    I believe you are referring to this passage in Luke Chapter 10:

    38 Now as they went on their way, Jesus entered a village. And a woman named Martha welcomed him into her house. 39 And she had a sister called Mary, who sat at the Lord’s feet and listened to his teaching. 40 But Martha was distracted with much serving. And she went up to him and said, “Lord, do you not care that my sister has left me to serve alone? Tell her then to help me.” 41 But the Lord answered her, “Martha, Martha, you are anxious and troubled about many things, 42 but one thing is necessary.[e] Mary has chosen the good portion, which will not be taken away from her.”

    Yes, to sit at the feet of our Savior and learn is the good portion and the one thing that is necessary. But to say that Jesus is calling women out of the kitchen is quite a leap. You have to take the whole council of God. You can’t discard the passages you don’t like. For example in Matt 8:

    14 And when Jesus entered Peter’s house, he saw his mother-in-law lying sick with a fever. 15 He touched her hand, and the fever left her, and she rose and began to serve him.

    And in Titus chapter 2 we have Paul instructing Titus to teach as follows:

    3 Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good, 4 and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, 5 to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled.

    So we see that women do minister, but there are limits to their calling just as there are limits to everyone’s calling.

    Re-read that passage in the Gospels, please. You want to spit *ish about hierarchical marriages, then let’s talk about Christ’s marriage to the church —

    An excellent suggestion. Here are a few facts concerning the hierarchy in marriage:

    1 – Adam was created 1st (Gen 2:7, 2:18-23; 1Tim 2:13).
    2 – Adam, not Eve, represented the human race (1Cor 15:22, 45-49; Rom 5:12-21).
    3 – Adam named Eve, not the reverse (Gen 2:23).
    4 – God named the human race “Man” not “Woman” (Gen 5:2).
    5 – God called Adam to account 1st after the fall (Gen 3:9).
    6 – Eve was created as a helper for Adam (Gen 2:18; 1Cor 11:9).
    7 – The curse brought a distortion of previous roles not new roles (Gen 3:16).
    8 – Salvation in Christ in the NT reaffirms the Creation order (Col 3:18-19).
    9 – Marriage has been a picture of Christ and His church since creation (Eph 5:32-33).
    10 – The relationship in the Trinity reflects the relationship in marriage (1 Cor 11:3).
    11 – Wives are to submit to their own husbands.

    Ephesians 5:22
    Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord.
    Ephesians 5:24
    Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.
    Colossians 3:18
    Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
    1 Peter 3:1
    Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives,

    let’s talk about Him getting on His hands and knees to wash His disciples’ feet!! Let’s talk about His willingness to lay down and die.

    Absolutely! But these are things both men and women are to do with in the guidelines he has set forth. It doesn’t free men and women from the roles and responsibilities they have towards one another.

    Let’s talk about the fact that plenty of men want ALL the power and NONE of the responsibility.

    Yes, and let us also consider that current laws instilled through feminism have GIVEN WOMEN ALL the power and NONE of the responsibility.

    I’ve met countless men who seek to control- who get off on power tripping – and have no love in their hearts.

    So have I. What has that to so with what Christians are supposed to do?

    Yet when Christ came here, He passed the cup of control to His Father and did not manifest Himself in a dominant form.

    Exactly! He willingly submitted Himself to the father. So why is it so hard to believe that wives would be asked to willingly submit to their husbands?

    You can worship Paul all day long. You can live a first century lifestyle, but keep in mind you are probably breaking a million of those rules and regulations.

    I think you are confusing the old covenant with the children of Israel with the lifestyles of 1st century Christians. Christian’s in all centuries are called to the new covenant which instills the law of grace which is written on our hearts. Jesus did not abolish the law, He fulfilled it.

    Furthermore if you think that taking the whole council of God equates to worshiping Paul or that the words of Paul were not in line with Christ, then what does that say about your beliefs? Are you above the apostle who met Christ on the road to Damascus? Did God preserve your letters for almost two millennia?

    I worship Christ and I live under His Words. I’m not trying to live under a curse that falls exponentially heavier on women. Christ came to free us. So sorry you haven’t caught up.

    The curse is not heavier for women. You think that way because you are infected with feminism. Let us review it:

    Genesis chapter 3
    16 To the woman he said,
    “I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing;
    in pain you shall bring forth children.
    Your desire shall be for[f] your husband,
    and he shall rule over you.”
    17 And to Adam he said,
    “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife
    and have eaten of the tree
    of which I commanded you,
    ‘You shall not eat of it,’
    cursed is the ground because of you;
    in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
    18 thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you;
    and you shall eat the plants of the field.
    19 By the sweat of your face
    you shall eat bread,
    till you return to the ground,
    for out of it you were taken;
    for you are dust,
    and to dust you shall return.”

    You imply that the woman’s lot is worse than the man’s, but you are wrong. The problem is that you view the world through a crooked lens. Women as a group have never had it worse than men. Furthermore, submission is not a bad thing when it is in line with God’s teaching. Men have to submit to Christ and to other men all the time.

    First you write this:

    I’m not asking to be a man, nor do I think that my body or brain functions the same as a man’s. Thank Heavens it doesn’t. But keep in mind, my friend, that equality isn’t the same as interchangeability. I’m not asking that women become men or vice versa,

    Then you add this:

    I’m asking that women be treated with the same respect as men and have the same opportunities to do what they feel called to do.

    Do you not see the contradiction in your own words? With the onslaught of feminism many women like yourself choose to become interchangeable with men precisely because they FEEL called to. And they do this in spite of the fact that the Bible clearly states that they should not.

    I truly wonder where you stand on the ordination of homosexuals and abortion. Are you for or against?

    My cup is FILLED with CHRIST, and my spirit is FILLED with CHRIST. That’s precisely why I’m a Freaking Freedom Fighter.

    I hope what you say is true, but God does not contradict Himself. If you belong to Christ then you will obey Him, and not some human ideology that masquerades as freedom.
    1 John 4:
    1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
    Matt 7:
    15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.16 You will recognize them by their fruits.

  312. Cicero

    @ GRAD STUDENT Lauren
    “I never said that my degree was more capable than God or His word”
    Me….. misreading your posts? What gall you have. My statement was
    “However you are claiming that your degree is more *capable of teaching* you how to serve than the Word of God”
    because you said
    “I feel blessed to be a part of such an *all-encompassing* learning environment, and didn’t mean to come across haughty or conceited. I promise. I want to do the best I can to *use my educational opportunities* to serve others”.
    Does your all-encompassing learning environment at the university include Bible study in its curriculum for your course? Does your all-encompassing learning environment tell you that The Bible is the best source of information to apply to rectify social dysfunction? Like I said, you want unity ”I feel *blessed to be a part of* such an all-encompassing learning environment”, I want the truth and the truth by its very nature is exclusive and God is the Way the Light and the Truth. And then you say that I shouldn’t refer to you as self-righteous. Then what does one call someone who twists their words, words of others and those of God as they see fit for their own personal views, opinions and goals with false religious piety? Tartuffe perhaps?
    Also your claimed understanding of the feminism clearly shows your lack of knowledge to its origins and goals. Which either shows that you have already been deceived by the lie or you are deliberately ignoring the truth.
    And you are right I don’t know you and never claimed I did. All I did was as a Christian man try and warn you against deceit and deception by understanding God’s will and not yours, due to the fact that personal will is easily manipulated. However you keep on bringing it up so I must be inadvertently hitting close to home with something your conscience can’t reconcile with.

  313. JDG

    Feminism is about achieving equality! It has also been expanded to encompass achieving equality for anyone who is being oppressed, not just women

    Feminism was never about equality. It is a tool of the devil used to cause disorder and ruin among families and nations. It is a warning sign to a Godless nation under the wrath of God and in line for judgement.

    Wouldn’t a movement that includes all oppressed people be called something else, like humanism for example? And who gets to be the oppressor in your cosmology? Feminism claims that patriarchy and men are the villains.

    Feminism gave us abortion on demand (the murder of babies in their mother’s womb), 50% divorce rates, and 40% out of wedlock birth rates. Feminism has influenced law makers to pass laws that destroy families, turn marriage into a sham, and remove fathers from their homes. Children that grow up without fathers are more likely to go to prison, use drugs, sell their bodies for money, and commit suicide. Does this really sound like a movement Christians should identify with?

  314. Cicero

    @ FuzzieWuzzie
    Oh snap. I think my word articulation is going to hamper me.
    So how is a man to be fed when his native tongue isn’t English?

  315. FuzzieWuzzie

    Cicero, I don’t think any of us here will get real sandwiches.
    For real food, I guess that I’ll have to go to the store.

  316. JDG

    My native tongue is English, but I’m still waiting for those sammiches. Don’t these girls know that those sammiches won’t make themselves?

  317. Cicero

    Well like all obstacles that man has overcome, the sammiches maker will be our crowning glory.

    soon my brothers……soon

  318. JDG

    @ Lauren

    I’m a feminist because I want to do anything I can to help women out of these sorts of abusive situation

    I have a question I meant to ask earlier. Since men are by far more often the recipients of violence in every part of the world. Why don’t you want to help them?

  319. GRAD SCHOOL Lauren

    @JDG, I still stand by what I said earlier. Your view of feminism is skewed – it’s tilted toward the most extreme, radical examples you could google. (Guarantee that you googled that stuff.) I do NOT believe in violence towards men, nor have I ever believed that!! Comb through each and every single comment I’ve made, talk to anyone who knows me, and you will find that I would NEVER advocate for violence or hatred of men. My father and brothers are three of the most incredible human beings on earth. I think men and women should be treated with EQUAL RESPECT and DIGNITY. That’s what I’ve been saying throughout this relatively pointless “dialogue.” Of course there are extremes within feminism! Just because I’m a feminist does not mean I agree with everything that every feminist has said! I’m not pro-choice. I’m not interested in legalizing prostitution. I think it needs to be decriminalized for trafficking victims and buyers should face higher penalties – because it’s ALWAYS abusive, disgusting, warped and dehumanizing to “buy” another human being.

    Just because I’m a Christian doesn’t mean I agree with everything that every Christian has ever said either (i.e. the generations of “christians” who used the Bible to justify the enslavement of our brothers and sisters. False Sickness! Also, this conversation is another, lessor example of the fact that I don’t agree with every Christian’s opinion. I think many of you hold oppressive, horrifying beliefs and I don’t want anything to do with them. An even more specific example was the ridiculous commenter who goes by “Ton” and said that women were not only created to be oppressed, but that it “Gets them wet.” Check it out. His comment was so shameful and sad, but perhaps he was just the only one saying out loud what many others are thinking in their heads. Maybe that moron is more representative of you folks than you’d like to admit. But even with these terrifying insults being hurled left and right, I still call myself a Christian. And even though you very much disagree with me and probably don’t want to be associated with God’s work in my life, you still call yourself a Christian). If you’ve met violent, hateful feminists, I sincerely apologize and I do NOT justify or defend their deeds. But I’m in a program with about 300 compassionate, kind feminists who do NOT advocate for violence or discrimination against anyone. All y’all’s obsessions with saying that I want to harm men is a figment of your imagination and evidence of your insecurity about losing your dominance – a trait of man, not Christ. Also, in response to your last post: “Since men are by far more often the recipients of violence in every part of the world…” YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY 100% WRONG ABOUT THAT. I need you to understand how wrong you are: Women receive violence in FAR higher numbers than men. Women fall prey to violence of their husbands, other people’s husbands, and community members. There are still regular bride burnings and honor killings at the drop of a hat. Women in all parts of the world are genitally mutilated on a regular basis. They are taken as prisoners of war; women are often counted as casualties of war from stray bullets and bombs; rape is constantly being used as a weapon against them; 1 in 4 women will be raped by the time they are in their early 20’s (only 1 in 16 men will be raped. Again, I think it’s awful when anyone gets raped.); 80% of the world’s human trafficking victims right now are FEMALE; the majority of PTSD sufferers are NOT military men, they are female survivors of rape. Read Judith Herman’s “Trauma & Recovery” to learn more about how wrong you are on that topic, please and thanks. And again, since you’ve haven’t gotten this through your thick skull yet, I DO NOT ADVOCATE ANY FORM OF VIOLENCE AGAINST ANYONE. I DO NOT WANT ANY GENDER TO DOMINATE THE OTHER. I DO NOT PROMOTE HATE. I JUST WANT JUSTICE. FOR EVERYONE!!!!! For crying out loud!! When I was in India, we were rescuing whole families – men, women, and children. I cried for every family member’s enslavement, and I rejoiced equally at their rescue!

    Since you basically wrote me a book of quotes, I’m going to give you the name of books that I have read that have made me a strong, strong, not-backing-down feminist:
    ~”Women, Authority, & The Bible: Some of today’s leading evangelicals seek to break through a critical impasse” – First three authors: Patricia Gundry, J.I. Packer, Clark Pinnock
    ~”All We’re Meant to be: A Biblical Approach to Women’s Liberation” by Letha Scanzoni & Nancy Hardesty
    ~”Reading the Bible from the Margins” by Miguel A. De La Torre
    ~”Not for Sale: Feminists Resisting Prostitution and Pornography” by Christine Stark and Rebecca Whisnant
    ~”The Good News About Injustice” & “Terrify No More” by Gary Haugen
    ~”Trauma & Recovery” by Judith Herman
    ~”Girls Like Us: Fighting for a World Where Girls are Not For Sale” by Rachel Lloyd
    ~and many, many more…

    All of my facts and figures come from these books as well as The Trafficking in Persons Report, ECPAT USA, Advocates for Human Rights, International Justice Mission, The US State Department, etc. And since you may have forgotten yet again, let me remind you that I care about men and want to advocate for their well-being, as well. I believe that any oppression is sin, and I’m living my life trying to fight that oppression. You’ve got a LOT of reading to do, so go ahead and get to it, mister. Be a responsible, compassionate human being and try, just try, for one second to put yourself into the shoes of an oppressed human being – male or female. Imagine how you would feel if someone told you that the God of the world created you for nothing more than oppression. You can come up with happy Sunday School answers to what you’d do or say, but I urge you to actually meditate on who you’d be or how you’d feel if you were a bonded laborer in India or a forced prostitute in New York city. Would you want a man (like yourself) to come along and joke about you making “sammiches”? Would you laugh at that stupid, pathetic joke? Would you want a man spewing bits and pieces of his favorite scriptures at you and telling you to deal with your oppression? Or would you want someone who believes in your inherent worth and sees Christ in you? Someone who would do anything to help you out of your misery? Because, brother, if you were for some reason in that situation, know this: I would do anything to help you.

    @ everyone, I’m leaving this conversation saddened, frustrated, disheartened, and disappointed with this brand of Christianity that breeds discrimination towards women. You may feel the same way about me. But just like I said to JDG, if I met any of you – male or female – and you were being oppressed, I’d love you, I’d pray for you, I’d fight for you!!

    [Final food for thought: “Perhaps it is no wonder that the women were first at the Cradle and last at the Cross. They had never known a man like this Man—there never has been another. A prophet and teacher who never nagged at them, never flattered or coaxed or patronized; who never made arch jokes about them, never treated them as “The women, God help us!” or “The ladies, God bless them!”; who rebuked without querulousness and praised without condescension; who took their questions and arguments seriously; who never mapped out their sphere for them, never urged them to be feminine or jeered at them for being female; who had no axe to grind and no uneasy male dignity to defend; who took them as he found them and was completely unselfconscious. There is no act, no sermon, no parable in the whole Gospel that borrows its pungency from female perversity; nobody could guess from the words and deeds of Jesus that there was anything “funny” about woman’s nature." - Dorothy Sayers]

  320. A Northern Observer

    Lauren scribed…
    I’m in a program with about 300 compassionate, kind feminists who do NOT advocate for violence or discrimination against anyone.

    Good so far…and then in the very next sentence:

    All y’all’s obsessions with saying that I want to harm men is a figment of your imagination and evidence of your insecurity about losing your dominance

    Typical feminist shaming language. The levels of cognative dissonance must be off the scales.

    —-
    JDG writes a tome of scriptural quotes supporting his position – Lauren “the Christian” barely acknowledges the Scriptural citation and responds by quoting a bunch of secular books. Translation “I won’t do the work of responding to your extensive quote, but I expect you to read all the citations I’ve posted.” (Rules for thee, but not for me…)


    Women receive violence in FAR higher numbers than men.
    Citation? Do you include the millions of men who’ve died in various armed conflicts, or do they not count?

    rape is constantly being used as a weapon against them?
    Ummm….no: http://www.usip.org/sites/default/files/resources/SR323.pdf

    1 in 4 women will be raped by the time they are in their early 20′s
    Does this definition of rape include being asked out by some guy she thought creepy?

    the majority of PTSD sufferers are NOT military men, they are female survivors of rape.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK56506/ and http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/magazine/issues/winter09/articles/winter09pg10-14.html state women have a higher rate of PTSD development compared to men, but that’s as a percentage of people exposed to a stressor.

    In terms of absolute numbers, far more military veterans are exposed to combat stressors compared to being raped.

    Read Judith Herman’s “Trauma & Recovery”
    Some people who’ve read the book and posted a review on Amazon.com had a few things to say about it: http://www.amazon.ca/product-reviews/0465087302/ref=cm_cr_dp_hist_one/181-6259872-1692400?ie=UTF8&filterBy=addOneStar&showViewpoints=0

    If you agree with her views and are interested in exploring her thesis, that is, if you are interested in approaching the issues of abuse and trauma from an academic perspective, then this is an intellectually stimulating work with a clear sense of direction. If you are a survivor of trauma then Dr. Herman’s political and academic agenda seriously undermine the helpfulness of this work.

    All of my facts and figures come from (no links provided). I provided links to reputable sources, where are yours?

    Because, brother, if you were for some reason in that situation, know this: I would do anything to help you.

    I admire the fire behind this statement.

    I serious question the motivation though.

  321. FuzzieWuzzie

    Lauren is very definitely swimming in the ideology. However, she did come here. I hope that she can absorb a little to see that there are other ways to look at things.
    I am concerned about her. She has the arrogance of youth. Experience cures that.

  322. Pingback: Independence And Random Observations | Donal Graeme

  323. Cicero

    Hmmm interesting how she doesn’t refute my last post to her or answered the questions I asked. And she is clearly confused about the reason Christ became flesh and has a Disney fairy tale image of Him.
    Matthew 10:34 “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.”
    I do pray that her eyes will open to the Truth before its too late.

  324. JDG

    A Northern Observer
    February 18, 2014 at 9:35 pm
    and
    FuzzieWuzzie
    February 18, 2014 at 10:02 pm

    She is submerged and probably unaware of it. If those 300 compassionate women are feminist, then their motives are in question. The very purpose of feminism is to discriminate against men.

    Something that stood out to me was her claim that woman are victims more often than men. This seems to be a common misconception. Men are murdered at rates much higher than everyone else.
    From wiki:
    “In terms of gender, males were more likely to become crime victims than were females, with 79% percent of all murder victims being male. Males were twice as likely to be carjacked as females”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States

    Men are 93% of industrial deaths and accident
    80% of Suicide victims – CDC

    http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/suifacts.htm

    Men are the overwhelming majority of rape victims.

    http://tpj.sagepub.com/content/69/2/39.extract

    And the 1 out of 4 rape myth has been debunked for some time.

    http://aspiringeconomist.com/index.php/2009/09/11/rape-statistics-1-in-4/

    http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/2011/02/one-in-four-lie-demolished-once-and-for.html

    And as was posted above, The vast majority of combat deaths in war are men.

    I am contemplating writing another response to Lauren, but I wonder if it will be worth the effort.
    She is convinced she is right and seems to have little concern for sound doctrine.

  325. Chris

    Laura: please, please do not repeat that old lie that men are more violent than women. You have access to an academic library, so I’ll give you a hint for your reading: look at the unselected birth cohorts and big community surveys.

    The first big paper that refuted this was

    Clinically Abusive Relationships in an Unselected Birth Cohort: Men’s and Women’s Participation and Developmental Antecedents.
    By Ehrensaft, Miriam K.; Moffitt, Terrie E.; Caspi, Avshalom
    Journal of Abnormal Psychology, Vol 113(2), May 2004, 258-270.
    Abstract
    In an unselected birth cohort (N=980, age 24-26 years), individuals in abusive relationships causing injury and/or official intervention (9% prevalence) were compared with participants reporting physical abuse without clinical consequences and with control participants who reported no abuse, on current characteristics and prospective developmental risks. In nonclinically abusive relationships, perpetrators were primarily women. In clinically abusive relationships, men and women used physical abuse, although more women needed medical treatment for injury. Women in clinically abusive relationships had childhood family adversity, adolescent conduct problems, and aggressive personality; men had disinhibitory psychopathology since childhood and extensive personality deviance. These findings counter the hibitory assumption that if clinical abuse was ascertained in epidemiological samples, it would be primarily man-to-woman, explained by patriarchy rather than psychopathology

    Come back with data. Original citations. Thanks.

  326. tbc

    @GRAD SCHOOL Lauren –(if you’re still listening; which I suspect you are) I commend you on your work and I also am sorry for the rough ”welcome” you received here. This is far from a graduate school seminar and the degree of disagreement amongst the ‘regulars’ is pretty intense. (I for instance almost always in every case and in every way disagree with Ton. I think he spouts a lot of unChristian nonsense) However, despite the disagreements, the thread that unites most of us is seeking to respond to what we see and have seen as the destructive impacts of feminism in society. The current thread in this blog deals with child sex trafficking in Africa, specifically involving males — so we’re not all uncompassionate jerks talking about sammiches.

    Most of us would disagree with you that feminism is a movement that will ultimately work to rectify the injustices that you rightfully fight against. In fact we see a bit down the road that it will ultimately only deliver people into a different kind of bondage. By all means, continue to partner under the guidance of the Holy Spirit in the work of liberating people from destruction, but please understand that there are other kinds of bondage as well. Feminism is not what will set these people free, as you know as a Christian.

  327. Chris

    Oh Laura, if you are going to go into PTSD…
    … you need to look at definitions, particularly in DSM iii, and how it has changed between DSM IV and V. There is an entire literature on this — and as a person who lives in a country where the only funded therapy for many years was for sexual abuse, I have seen just how far that can be pushed when there are dollars involved.

    [And it backfired. The first thing you do with someone who has really been hurt, traumatized is NOT TALK ABOUT IT. You talk about how it affects them, and get their coping skills up. Way up. Before staring any exposure or therapy to deal with the trauma. And many people just want to let it alone. The research that is out there is generally from the VA -- the traumatologists don't look at their work hard enough -- or the UK, where some standard practices such as debriefing were found to be harmful. But I learned this earlier -- by seeing women, in the early 1990s in the heat of the trauma hysteria, decompensate and become psychoti after "discovering" their trauma -- not one, but at least one patient a call night. So the standard guidelines changed. But the insurance company will not pay withoout full disclosure -- and those of us who do acute psychiatry have to pick up the peices]

    Look, I have just got into press a pilot intervention to prevent violence in community workers. Are we rolling it out? Like hell we are. We are going to do a proper trial with an active control, not pre and post, and confirm that this works. Because you can cause damange with your therapy, as surely as you can with medication.

    Finally, welcome to the real world. We do not look at the ideology, but the results.

  328. Cicero

    “so we’re not all uncompassionate jerks talking about sammiches.”
    Well if someone isn’t able to see the humour regarding the “sammiches” references then they have serious issues. That is PC gone mad.

    And the “rough welcome”? She initiated (which she admitted) and when she got equal in return she started to play the victim, side stepping raised issues and vilifying those who don’t view her opinions with false piety.
    She thinks that because she experienced the suffering of others in a foreign country for a bit that she now actually knows what it means to live in suffering and that we dont know what she does.
    Experiencing suffering is not the same as living with that experience day in and day out year in and year out. Well she doesn’t, I do. Her self-righteousness is one thing. Trying to use the Word of God to stroke her ego is another. What she is doing is called being an emotional vampire. And I have seen my fair share of foreign emotional vampires during my lifetime.

  329. Ton

    You are just pissy because I ignore the feminine imperative and do not suffer from White guilt which reduced your power, & the power of the modern church/ modern Christians to 0

  330. tbc

    Cicero — I get the sammich humour — I really do. I’m just trying to talk the young lady down from the edge so that *maybe* she can learn something.

    She is (I think) sincere, though misguided and full of the arrogance of youth.

    Ton – I really don’t give a flying flip about you, White guilt, or any other nonsense you regularly spout.

  331. Pingback: Girls conspiring to turn other girls into sluts: a good reason not to send your daughters away to college. | Sunshine Mary

  332. Cicero

    @tbc: That was your approach. This was mine
    “It is better to be divided by the truth than to be united in error. It is better to speak the truth that hurts and then heals, than falsehood that comforts and then kills. Let me tel you something, friend, it is not love and it is not friendship if we fail to declare the whole council of God. It is better to be hated for telling the truth, than to be loved for telling a lie. It is impossible to find anyone in the Bible who was a power for God who did not have enemies and was not hated. It is better to stand alone with the truth, than to be wrong with the multitude. It is better to ultimately succeed with the truth than to temporarily succeed with a lie. There is only one gospel and Paul said, ‘If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached onto you, let him be accursed’.” – Adrian Rodgers

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