Evangelical women, also known as covert Christo-feminists, rail against slut-shaming.

Matthew 5:48 “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.”

Now updated to: “Be ye only slightly whorish, even as your gender neutral Parent which is in heaven is only slightly whorish.” – Frank

Probably one of the biggest understandings I’ve gained from reading in the Christian manosphere is how thoroughly feminism has saturated evangelical Christianity.  There is now only one point that separates mainstream feminism from evangelical feminism: abortion.  On the issue of sex, there is no longer a difference at all.  Just as secular feminists rail against slut-shaming, Christian women are beginning to rail more publicly against “purity” culture, with purity culture simply being the Biblical mandate for a woman to maintain her virginity before marriage.

There have been an increasing number of articles on Christian blogs and at Christianity Today on the topic.  In her essay I Am Damaged Goods, on the Christian site Deeper Story, writer Sarah Bessey bemoans the teaching of Biblical sexual morality.  In her Christianity Today article Virginity Isn’t Our Holy GrailJen Pollock Michel praises Bessey’s article and explains how for Christians virginity has become an idol.  She is careful to point out that the Bible does call for sexual chastity for the unmarried, but she writes:

God’s purity standard is effectively impossible to meet.

In an essay I wrote on my old blog this past February, Widening the Christian good girl path, one slut sob story at a time, I asked the question:

Will the Church maintain the hard and fast markers on sexual morality given in the Bible or will the Church slowly but surely go along with the Holy Rationalization Hamsters in their attempt to mow down wider and wider swathes so that more unrepentant sluts can squeeze onto the Christian Good Girl path?

It’s been three months since I asked that question, but I can already tell you the answer.  Yesterday on the website of The Atlantic, which is a large and fairly liberal mainstream news media source, I found the anti-purity Christian feminists working hard to mow another slutty strip down the purity path.  In her essay ‘You Ain’t Ruined’: How Thomas Hardy Took On Victorian-Era Purity Culture, Karen Swallow Prior, a professor at Liberty University and a Christian women’s issues writer, explains:

For the Victorians, virtue and virginity were synonymous. A woman who lost her virginity outside of marriage—regardless of the circumstances surrounding that loss–was ruined. For all intents and purposes, then, a woman’s virtue resided in her hymen. Will—a woman’s will at least—played little or no part in the business. The Victorians, certainly not the first or the last to do so, had confused virginity, a physical state, with virtue, a metaphysical condition.

But Hardy’s view was that unlike virginity, virtue is located not in the hymen but in the soul: in one’s spirit, one’s desires, in one’s thoughts, one’s will. The virtue of the soul is expressed through the willful acts of the body. It involves one’s whole being and thus is not surrendered by means of brute force or by singular acts. This understanding is the basis for Hardy’s insistence upon Tess’s purity. She had lost her virginity, yes, but had done so as a victim of, not only the man who took it from her, but also a culture characterized by sexual repression and hypocrisy [...]

The sexual mores of my own conservative evangelical culture are often described as “Victorian” and sometimes justifiably so. The questions being raised from both within and without this community about the meaning and value of virginity and “purity” within a more holistic approach to healthy and virtuous sexuality are important ones.

Mrs. Swallow Prior’s pretty words are just Christo-feminist code for saying Don’t shame the sluts!  This comes in part from the desire to be liked and accepted by liberal culture.  It is clear that we live in a country where the liberals have won; they are in charge and what they say goes.  Christian women are no different than women in general in that they just love a winner.  Slut culture has won, so Christian women are beginning to turn on purity culture with angry cries.

It is also the fact that Christian women are subject to all the same hypergamous desires that other women are.  Young Christian women want to mess around before settling down, so older women, rather than following Titus 2:3-5, which says:

Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good, 4 and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, 5 to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled.

instead seem intent on making sure Christian girls face no judgment in the church for their sexual promiscuity.   In our present day, young unmarried Christian women are generally sexually active just like secular women are, with the only difference being that they have traditionally faced mild social censure from the church.  If conservative evangelical women have their way, these young women will be freed from that one last, small constraint.

Why does this matter?  Why should Christian women be exhorting one another to maintain their sexual virtue before marriage?  We all know the obvious reasons, like avoiding unintended pregnancy or sexually transmitted diseases, but here are three that I think are just as important.

1. Maintaining female virginity until marriage is Biblical.  You wouldn’t think I’d even need to say that on a Christian blog, but I actually got into a disagreement recently at the Orthosphere with a man who did not believe that the Bible says that women are supposed to be virgins when they get married.  I won’t spend a lot of time here, but in case you aren’t sure, the Bible does tell women to maintain their purity; here are a handful of verses for you to check out.  God doesn’t tell women to avoid sexual sin because He wants to oppress us; He tells us to avoid it because He didn’t create women’s bodies and minds to function properly when coupled with more than one man.

2. A woman with previous sexual partners has an increased risk of divorce.  The Social Pathologist cites a recent study which found that:

Women who cohabit prior to marriage or who have premarital sex have an increased likelihood of marital disruption. Considering the joint effects of premarital cohabitation and premarital sex, as well as histories of premarital relationships, extends previous research. The most salient finding from this analysis is that women whose intimate premarital relationships are limited to their husbands—either premarital sex alone or premarital cohabitation—do not experience an increased risk of divorce. It is only women who have more than one intimate premarital relationship who have an elevated risk of marital disruption. This effect is strongest for women who have multiple premarital coresidental unions. These findings are consistent with the notion that premarital sex and cohabitation have become part of the normal courtship pattern in the United States. They do not indicate selectivity on characteristics linked to the risk of divorce and do not provide couples with experiences that lessen the stability of marriage.

3. Having previous sexual partners increases the likelihood that a wife will lose sexual attraction for her husband.  The mechanism for this is multi-faceted but probably has to do with neurochemical bonding, microbiome bonding, and alpha widowhood; if the young woman has already bonded to another man, it is more difficult for her to bond with her husband, especially if he is less dominant than the other man was.

In the last thread, and in every thread on every website in the known universe where the subject of married sex comes up, men flock to say that they have experienced severely restricted sexual access in their marriages.  This has always seemed so odd to me; women know that men like sex, so even if they don’t feel attracted to their husbands, I’ve always wondered why they can’t at least feign a little enthusiasm once a week, put on a negligee and give him twenty minutes of her time.  But I think this is because I just don’t know how deeply revolting it is for a woman to lie with a man to whom she isn’t attracted.  On the last thread, Novaseeker wrote:

Her body is screaming at her to not have sex with this man! It feels like having sex with her brother, or like rape — just absolutely degrading. So she is angry that he wants sex with her, angry at him for not being attractive enough, for acting like he’s entitled to sex with her, for taking her for granted by not being attractive and so on — she’s angry, she wants retribution, she wants to inflict pain, and she also wants to control the sexual situation so that she can avoid having icky rape sex with a man her body is screaming at her to run away from sexually and find another man (and his seed for her remaining eggs).

I think the disgust must be worse than I’ve always assumed, and the really sad part is that it probably isn’t under her conscious control.  There may or may not be much she can do if her brain and body decide she’s no longer attracted to him, but for some possible ideas to consider, see my essay Advice for a former slut married to a beta provider to whom she is not sexually attracted (also, see this comment from Dalrock in the thread below).  I don’t think it’s any coincidence that several men have described their wives fleeing the bed the minute sex is over to wash off the semen; her body is rejecting him as unfit to mate with, and semen is the very stuff that makes you pregnant, so it really isn’t that surprising that a woman who isn’t attracted to her husband is particularly repulsed by contact with his semen.  Given this, shouldn’t Christian women be redoubling their efforts to promote premarital chastity?

Even though to modern Christians, Mrs. Swallow Prior’s article seems very reasonable and kind-hearted, simply motivated by wanting young women not to think that their entire worth is tied up in their bodies, nevertheless it is not a kindness.  It is, rather, a great disservice and leads young Christian women to believe that they can be sexually active and, because there is no condemnation in Christ and He always forgives us when we ask, they can just repent later and face no consequences.  What they do not understand, because Mrs. Swallow Prior does not tell them, is that they will still face grave earthly consequences for their sexual sin and that those consequences will affect not only them but also their husbands and children.

Further reading:

 

321 thoughts on “Evangelical women, also known as covert Christo-feminists, rail against slut-shaming.

  1. sunshinemary

    There really isn’t any new information in this article, other than to point out that while up until very recently the Church has still continued to say that sex before marriage is a no-no (even though most people are doing it anyway), there are an increasing number of women who in the secular culture are viewed as conservative but who are ramping up their anti-purity rhetoric. The situation in the church will worsen, in my opinion, as their message spreads.

  2. Farm Boy

    God’s purity standard is effectively impossible to meet.

    So say Christian women

    It is odd that fellas don’t say that.

  3. JG

    Easier to rail against truth and seek approval from the feminist herd than acknowledge it. Christian feminists need to drop the pretensions. Otherwise, they’re just another ‘snake in the grass ‘.

  4. Elspeth

    It is odd that fellas don’t say that.

    Actually, I have heard fellas say that, Farm Boy. In fact, I’ve heard many more men than women say it in my day. The difference is that when men come to the truth of Christian faith, they are far less likely to make excuses for their past behavior than women do.

    Women are more vocal about it because women pay a higher price for sexual promiscuity than men do. Always has been thus, always will be thus.

  5. Cautiously Pessimistic

    Sunday Challenge:

    What [women] do not understand [...] is that they will still face grave earthly consequences for their sexual sin and that those consequences will affect not only them but also their husbands and children.

    Find a preacher that will say this from the pulpit.

    [ssm: This is why White Knight, man-up-and-marry-the-sluts pastors, who probably honestly believe they are helping women and treating them with kindness, are in fact worsening women's (and their future husbands') lives and making the problem much worse. They MUST stop kowtowing to bitchy Christo-feminists who are covertly seeking to rule the Church. They must start preaching the hard truth, whether women's feelings get hurt on Sunday morning or not:

    For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. - Hebrews 12:11]

  6. Novaseeker

    It also leaves spiritual damage, even after the sin is forgiven. There is a residue there, spiritually, a weakening of the spiritual will. It takes time to heal, and certainly won’t if it is repeatedly done.

    I think in terms of the main gist of the article, the problem is that if you de-emphasize the idea of sexual purity, there really isn’t any place left to go but full secular with it not really mattering much at all. The basis of that concept is that it isn’t realistic in this culture, so that insisting on it simply drives people away from the church in their 20s until they get married later on — so we should instead embrace the behavior, accept it for what it is, and keep them in church. I think that is the mindset.

    The problem is that doing it this way basically baptizes fornication as morally licit, or, rather, as not a big deal. It pretends that the current culture is unique in its challenges in the sexual area. This is not the case, when viewed over the course of the 2000 year history of the church. Rome was quite sexually licentious, as was Greece. The church didn’t adapt its morality to those norms because the church viewed its norms as unrealistic or impossible to meet. Yet today there is that urge to do so, out of fear — fear of becoming irrelevant.

    The red pill for the church is realizing that the overwhelming majority of Christians are committing huge sexual sins, and that the reality isn’t that these are ‘otherwise good people’. No, they are sinners. That doesn’t mean they are *worse* than other sinners, but they aren’t any better. Baptizing the sin, de-sinning it, which is what you effectively do when you hint or even outright state that pre-marital sex isn’t a big deal really, will simply usher in an era where avoiding pre-marital sex for Christians is even more rare than it is now — it will, in effect, change the church’s teaching on this issue, de facto. The red pill church would call out the sin, like any other sin, and call to repentance — the blue pill church will minimize the sin, say it isn’t that big a deal, and thereby reinforce sinful behaviors and consolidate them.

    Underlying all of this, of course, is a resentment among women that there is a double standard at play socially about these issues. That irritates almost all women. Almost all of them. Of course there is no moral double standard (men get no moral pass for fornicating), but there is a social double standard. The ironic thing is that this double standard is, itself, perpetuated by women — women who reward men for being pre-selected, who avoid sexually inexperienced men, who do not value male purity in the least. And then they complain that there is a double standard because men do value women’s purity. It’s a case of wanting to dumb standards down — or, rather more consonant with the remainder of feminism, a case of women aping men or wanting to ape men, and make the male standards applicable to both men and women. But make no mistake — it’s a visceral hatred for the double standard, which is ironically self-perpetuated by women when it comes to not holding men to the Christian standard when deciding which men are attractive and rewarding them as such with requited attention, that is the basis for the angst about purity. It’s envy, but a particularly irrational form of it precisely because it is women themselves who are intimately complicit in maintaining a low standard for men in sexual terms due to how women are attracted to men.

    [ssm: Do you mind if I highlighted what I thought was a really important point in your comment?]

  7. deti

    “women know that men like sex, so even if they don’t feel attracted to their husbands, I’ve always wondered why they can’t at least feign a little enthusiasm once a week, put on a negligee and give him twenty minutes of her time.”

    ONLY 20 minutes!! That’s IT!?!

    [ssm: I thought I was being generous. Any woman worth her salt should be able to get it done in ten if need be. :)]

  8. Farm Boy

    ONLY 20 minutes!! That’s IT!?!

    It’s just so hard.

    [ssm: It seems ridiculous to me, but that does exemplify that sex with someone she's not attracted to really feels, as Novaseeker pointed out, nearly as bad as rape to her.]

  9. deti

    “The difference is that when men come to the truth of Christian faith, they are far less likely to make excuses for their past behavior than women do.”

    A man says: “I want to do this. I know it’s wrong, but I’ll suffer the consequences.”

    A woman says: “I want to do this, therefore, it is good and right and moral.”

  10. Farm Boy

    Karen Swallow Prior, a professor at Liberty University

    Is she married to Biggus Dickus?

  11. Novaseeker

    A woman says: “I want to do this, therefore, it is good and right and moral.”

    Yes, although I guess I would state it as “Jesus loves me, and wants me to be happy, and doing this makes me happy, so Jesus wants me to do it, and it’s therefore okay.”

  12. alcestiseshtemoa

    Loved the title of this post. Most, to perhaps all, Anglo Puritan Protestants (and their satellites internationally and around the word) are covert Christo-feminists and Protestantism is a bit dangerous. It doesn’t help that where new age feminism rules, religious heresy rules.

    I always had a small understanding ever since I was young that Charismatics, Evangelicals and Pentecostals are heretical and quite modern liberal, contrary to crazy assertions that they are some “faaaaaar right boogeyman” or some other nonsense.

  13. Farm Boy

    Karen Swallow Prior, a professor at Liberty University

    Is she laden, and what is her airspeed?

  14. Novaseeker

    ssm: It seems ridiculous to me, but that does exemplify that sex with someone she’s not attracted to really feels, as Novaseeker pointed out, nearly as bad as rape to her

    I think also it’s not uncommon for such women to have showers after having sex with H. That’s pretty much a direct parallel to what we see women doing after being raped — she wants to wash him off of herself. There’s a commonality there, clearly.

  15. anonymous

    sex with someone she’s not attracted to really feels, as Novaseeker pointed out, nearly as bad as rape to her

    Could this be the ultimate origin of the feminist rape-hysteria? “All sex is rape” to them, because they can’t attract Alphas, hence all sex feeeeeeels like raype……

    [ssm: I think that is one of a two-part reason. The other part is more along the lines of what you and I have been discussing off the record.]

  16. sunshinemary

    Deti: A woman says: “I want to do this, therefore, it is good and right and moral.”

    Novaseeker: “Yes, although I guess I would state it as “Jesus loves me, and wants me to be happy, and doing this makes me happy, so Jesus wants me to do it, and it’s therefore okay.”

    Yes, and we are this way about every sin, not just sex. I literally just did this to my husband today. He pointed out to me something he wants to see changed in my behavior and I had all kinds of rationalizations why I should be able to continue doing what I wanted to do, and I even played the God card. I had to call him and apologize to him a few minutes ago and admit that he was right to point out my flaw and call me to repentance. I hated every minute of having to confess that he was not only correct but also that he had the right to point it out to me, but I feel better now.

  17. TheShadowedKnight

    Impossible… The Hell, you say! So since it is impossible to be free from sin, we should just give in to debauchery and hedonism? Perfection is beyond our reach, but we should *never* stop striving to reach it. The honor lies not in the goal, but in the pursuit.

    The Shadowed Knight

  18. anonymous

    Karen Swallow Prior, a professor at Liberty University

    She swallowed prior to marriage…… but not afterwards….

    Is she married to Biggus Dickus?

    Do you find something funny about the name…. Biggus Dickus….,?

    Oh no, we’re going Monty Python today… help help I’m being repressed…

  19. Cautiously Pessimistic

    Karen Swallow Prior, a professor at Liberty University

    Not to be confused with adjunct professor Karen Spitz.

    [ssm: Oh, didn't you hear? She's married now, so she's Karen Spitz Aphter.]

  20. Cautiously Pessimistic

    so we should instead embrace the behavior, accept it for what it is, and keep them in church. I think that is the mindset.

    Overheard at the Churchian PR meeting:
    A: I’ve got it! We’ll throw out our principles by being more secular than we’re supposed to be, but not so secular that we’re actually competitive with secularism! That will drive attendance through the roof!
    B: This plan sounds familiar to me…
    A: Yeah, I just got back from a Republican strategy session.

  21. anonymous

    I don’t think it’s any accident that several men have described their wives fleeing the bed the minute sex is over to wash off

    That may be necessary for an entirely opposite reason: if the guy is an Alpha, or HER Alpha, a woman may produce so much juice of her own that both she and hub need a quick shower afterwards. And the entire bed has to be changed. And hub’s beard needs a rinsing

  22. Miserman

    God’s purity standard is effectively impossible to meet.

    So, blame God for setting too high a standard? Or perhaps this is blaming men and the male-oriented God of Christianity. Feminism has always had a problem with a Father God and a Man Savior.

    If only God and Adam hadn’t set the standard on that tree, Satan wouldn’t have been able to tempt Eve.

  23. Frank

    Not to be confused with adjunct professor Karen Spitz.

    Which is it baby, Spitz or Swallows? [ssm: Ah, the eternal question...]

    I hate myself for knowing way too many Austin Power quotes.

  24. Novaseeker

    Keep in mind that Swallow is at Liberty University, which was founded by Jerry Falwell to be an explicitly very conservative, right-wing evangelical institution. That tells you how far the rot has gone to date.

    [ssm: Yes! Exactly! And as Dalrock is always pointing out, nearly everyone in the culture believes these are the people who are upholding sexual purity standards and conservative politics, but they really aren't. They are wolves in sheep's clothing. Where are the shepherds??]

  25. Frank

    Matthew 5:48 “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.”

    Now updated to: “Be ye only slightly whorish, even as your gender neutral Parent which is in heaven is only slightly whorish.”

    [ssm: Frank, that's hysterical. I'm editing it into the OP. Too funny.]

  26. anonymous

    In the ranks of these “Christian” women who are against slut shaming, is there even ONE who is a virgin, or was a virgin-til-marriage? I think not. Indeed it’s ludricrous to imagine a virgin or a virgin-til-married woman making such an argument.

    Hence i conclude that 100% of this can be explained by the fact that these women just don’t want to own their own guilt. But you don’t own it, you can’t repent of it, and without repentance you cannot be saved…

  27. lgrobins

    “But Hardy’s view was that unlike virginity, virtue is located not in the hymen but in the soul: in one’s spirit, one’s desires, in one’s thoughts, one’s will.”

    Fine, let’s say virtue is indeed in one’s soul. Well, do we see any virtue in modern woman’s souls these days? I think not. It doesn’t matter where you say the virtue is cause it can’t be found anywhere. If you are slutting it up, I doubt you are going to be having pure, virtuous thoughts.

    [ssm: And not only that, but we can't see our souls. So we have to rely on external cues to see what is in someone's soul:

    15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits. Matthew 7:15-19]

  28. Pingback: Evangelical women, aka Christo-feminists, rail against sl*t-shaming | Viva La Manosphere!

  29. Novaseeker

    The problem is that doing it this way basically baptizes fornication as morally licit, or, rather, as not a big deal. It pretends that the current culture is unique in its challenges in the sexual area. This is not the case, when viewed over the course of the 2000 year history of the church. Rome was quite sexually licentious, as was Greece. The church didn’t adapt its morality to those norms because the church viewed its norms as unrealistic or impossible to meet. Yet today there is that urge to do so, out of fear — fear of becoming irrelevant.

    Following on this, it seems to me that the main reason for this is that the church is in a different position today — or, rather, any Christians who comprise the church see themselves in a different position today — than was the case in Greco-Roman times. Specifically, in that era, the church saw itself as an outsider to the culture, an explicitly counter-cultural movement that was in many ways directly conflicting with and critical of the culture it was formed in. There was therefore not an *internal* pressure to conform to that culture (there were external pressures aplenty), because the self-awareness and self-definition of the church was explicitly counter-cultural.

    By contrast today we live in an age that is becoming, if it isn’t already, the post-Christian age. The church is in a period of decline in terms of its cultural influence as an institution throughout the West. This makes for a fairly insecure church as compared with the early church. The early church wasn’t insecure about being out of step with the culture — it didn’t own that culture, and stood against it to the point of martyrdom in some cases. The contemporary church, by contrast, has an overwhelming sense of loss of position, culturally, of the “culture getting away from us” — a mindset that was alien to the self-conception of the early church. The church was an institution that was culturally formative in the West for hundreds of years, and it is coming off of that period into a period of relatively less influence and power culturally. Because of this, it is hard for contemporary Christians, for the contemporary church, to really reflect the mindset of the early church. Instead, they are terrified of losing cultural relevance, obsessed with winning back the culture, with fighting cultural wars and the like — precisely because they were the dominant culture and are in the process of losing that, if they have not done so already (open to debate). And hence the obsession with relevance. With being with it. With being contemporary friendly and so on.

    Unfortunately this is a death spiral for the church. The fact is that the culture is moving away from the church. That doesn’t mean Christians should be indifferent to that, but the most relevant way for the church to actually be the church, and not a contemporary spiritual feel good club in Christian garb, is to focus on saving souls, and preaching the truth of the Gospel — not tinkering, tailoring or relevantizing the core message of the church to match the contemporary cultural values. To do so is to betray the mission of the church. And that is what we see being done here. Of course the church needs to speak in a contemporary idiom, just as the church fathers of the early church used the philosophical language of the day to explain Christian faith in a relatively intelligible way in that particular context. But it must not muddy the message — that makes it irrelevant, paradoxically, as something that exists to save souls, by making it adapt to a fundamentally anti-Christian culture and the values of that culture.

    It’s quite understandable that people who are doing this actually mean well. They see it as a crusade to stem cultural damage by drawing in as many as possible. But the true approach would be to let people who will not repent of the madness of this culture go, shrink the church a bit, and strengthen its core so that it can serve as a beacon of holiness and salvation, and not a mirror of the contemporary feel good values we can get just as easily outside of church.

  30. lgrobins

    Its like the old “I submit to him in my head. so, I must be submitting”. “I am a virgin in my head/spirit, so I must be a virgin”

  31. Butterfly Flower

    “Yes, although I guess I would state it as “Jesus loves me, and wants me to be happy, and doing this makes me happy, so Jesus wants me to do it, and it’s therefore okay.”

    This reminds me of a comment from a religious discussion on the Japanese blogosphere:

    “Jesus is too supportive, like a school-friend. [...] a relationship a with God should be like a relationship with a parent. [...] A God will chastise you.”

  32. Cautiously Pessimistic

    I hate myself for knowing way too many Austin Power quotes.

    The Austin Powers movies mark my transition from ‘with it’ to ‘not with it’. They came out over 15 years ago, and my brain still thinks they came out ‘not too long ago’ and are a current reference. Of course, in those days gas was under two dollars and… HEY! YOU KIDS GET OFF MY LAWN!

  33. alcestiseshtemoa

    Is it me, or does this sound like a name straight out of an Austin Powers movie?

  34. deti

    SSM: “White Knight, man-up-and-marry-the-sluts pastors, who probably honestly believe they are helping women and treating them with kindness, are in fact worsening women’s (and their future husbands’) lives and making the problem much worse. They MUST stop kowtowing to bitchy Christo-feminists who are covertly seeking to rule the Church. They must start preaching the hard truth, whether women’s feelings get hurt on Sunday morning or not:

    Nova: “*** we should instead embrace the behavior, accept it for what it is, and keep them in church. I think that is the mindset. *** The problem is that doing it this way basically baptizes fornication as morally licit, or, rather, as not a big deal. It pretends that the current culture is unique in its challenges in the sexual area. This is not the case, when viewed over the course of the 2000 year history of the church. Rome was quite sexually licentious, as was Greece. The church didn’t adapt its morality to those norms because the church viewed its norms as unrealistic or impossible to meet. Yet today there is that urge to do so, out of fear — fear of becoming irrelevant.”

    The Church (meaning Christendom in the West) is in a tough position, and doesn’t realize it is making the problem much worse. I think deep down the Church (comprised of its faithful and its clergy) knows there is a big problem with almost all of its members either having in the past committed or currently committing huge sexual sins in all forms. They know what the RIGHT thing to do is, which is to call it out, call it what it is, and call the sinner to repentance. For many, many reasons, the Church believes it is finding it increasingly necessary to do the expedient thing instead of the scripturally correct thing.

    The church has for years been up against huge, fierce, vocal and vicious resistance in the form of Christofeminists. Women are the vast majority of churchgoers and volunteers, and comprise an increasing number of protestant ordained and licensed clergy. It shouldn’t be like this, but in most families, women are the ones who decide where the family attends church and directs the tithing and giving. Women en masse have essentially said that if they hear anything objectionable from a pulpit; if they aren’t getting what they want; if they don’t like the way things are being done, they will leave the church. They will take their volunteer time elsewhere. They will take their gifts and tithes elsewhere. As with nearly everything else, the issue is about dwindling amounts in the collection plates and fewer people in the pews on Sunday morning. Full stop.

    Second, remember deti’s First Law. Christian women are Christians; but they’re also women. Christian women are not one iota different from their secular sisters in terms of attraction triggers. They want hot, sexy, attractive, alpha, dominant, confident men to date, have sex with, and marry (in that order). They want George Clooney with a divinity degree and an ability to preach a sermon on a moment’s notice; but they want him to have a glint in his eye and a hint of a repented-of badboy past. He has to be hot, and bonus if he’s not a virgin and knows how to please a woman in bed.

    A third problem is that women are absolutely terrified of being judged, and they absolutely shriek and push back at the slightest hint of judgment. Hence the coopting of the most misused, taken-out-of-context scripture in the entire canon: “Judge not, lest ye be judged.” This has been taken wholesale by women and armchair theologians to mean that people (especially women) are never, ever to be judged, and are never, ever, to suffer consequences for their actions. And so women insist that no matter what they do or say, they cannot be judged and must be relieved of all consequences naturally flowing from their sin. It is from this that our churches have created an entire false theology designed to promise women everything, impose on men everything, and judge no one for anything.

    Fourth: Young women raised in the church have their 463 bullet point checklists which they consider their birthrights as Daughters of the King and God’s Little Princesses. The One whom God has selected and groomed for her from the foundations of the World will be placed in her lap.

    Fifth: for women returning to the church or unchurched women recently converted: Virtually all of them have a history of sexual sin for which they have “repented” to varying degrees. I think the Church tries to “do the right thing” by everyone through insisting that these women get married off just as soon as practical. After all, getting her married will give her what she wants, keep her from sexual sin, and help the single loser men among their ranks. The Church tries to sell these women to the beta schlubsters as prime marriage material because, “after all, she’s here! She’s a woman! She’s in church! She’s repenting (or trying to, mostly, a little)! She’d make a great wife! You know what we say about being unequally yoked! She needs a father for her bastard – er, 8 year old son! Man up, and marry the slut – er, aging ex-carouseler, er, nice 34 year old woman here!!!”

    The problem is that these women are thoroughly unattracted to the men in church, and for good reason. Most of the men are wimps, sexually inexperienced, and unlucky in love. Most of these men also give off the “good man, nice guy” vibe, which women want in a husband, but despise in a boyfriend or sex partner.

  35. alcestiseshtemoa

    Fine, let’s say virtue is indeed in one’s soul. Well, do we see any virtue in modern woman’s souls these days? I think not. It doesn’t matter where you say the virtue is cause it can’t be found anywhere. If you are slutting it up, I doubt you are going to be having pure, virtuous thoughts.

    This whole “it’s just a thing, just physical, just the outside” vs. “what truly and what just matters is on the inside, in the heart” as if the soul and body are disconnected and have nothing to do with each other. This argument is quite common and goes from sluthood to fatness to other stuff.

    Like, “But I have a good FACE! The body doesn’t matter or that body part doesn’t” (while in reality, facial attractiveness and body attractiveness tend to be correlated and proportional), “Fat women have great, pleasant personalities” (a lie and a myth, they typically tend to be unpleasant), “Fat people are smart” (no, they are a bit dull on average) or something along those lines.

  36. deti

    “The church has for years been up against huge, fierce, vocal and vicious resistance in the form of Christofeminists.”

    Following on this, Western Christendom has been under enormous social and political pressure. Every church scandal is held up as proof of hypocrisy and lack of credibility. Churches have been subjected to enormous monetary judgments for the wrongs of a few of its misguided clergy. The church’s beliefs and tenets on sexual and other kinds of morality are denigrated and pooh-poohed as archaic, unnecessary throwbacks to a long-gone era. The church is under pressue to “modernize” and “update” itself so as to “get with it” and remain “relevant”.

    Every so often, some preacher says something which is inartful yet biblically correct, but viewed as insensitive. He or she is derided and blasted as a sexist, a racist, a homophobe, a criminal, a threat to ordered society, and a Christo-thug who needs to be silenced, demonized and marginalized. The news cycle and scandal stretches into three or four days with MSNBC talking heads exploding their jugular veins in feigned outrage as they express their shock, shock I tell you.

    and then along come the politically correct feminist brigade with their technological weaponry. They doxx and out their anonymous opponents. They expose their opponents and ruin them personally. They bust up their friendships, get them fired from jobs, and ostracize them from society, sending them to the virtual gulag archipelago.

    That, i think, is what churches are up against these days.

    [ssm: Yes, do you remember the feminist outcry against Pastor Mark Driscoll when he dared to wonder if the reason that so many pastors fall to the temptation of sexual sin is because their wives are so fat and dumpy? They went insane, they protested outside his church, the Christo-fems like Rachel Held Evans attacked him...he finally caved in and apologized.]

  37. Dalrock

    I think the disgust must be worse than I’ve always assumed, and the really sad part is that I highly doubt it is under her control. There is very little she can do if her brain and body decide she’s no longer attracted to him (but for some possible ideas to consider, see my essay Advice for a former slut married to a beta provider to whom she is not sexually attracted.).

    I don’t think this is entirely correct. I’ve seen quite a number of women describe how a change in their mindset changes the way they experience sex with their husbands. This shouldn’t be surprising from a Game perspective. Wives who see it as their duty to have sex with her husband tend to find the idea of being “owned” by their husband arousing. Submission is sexy, and submitting to their husband sexually especially so. There also is the issue of her overrating herself and overestimating what she should expect in her husband to be attracted to him. There is a massive amount of denial about a simple fact; she was looking for the best man she could attract, and he was that man. There may be some inefficiencies in the MMP, but realistically very few women are guilty of “settling” for fundamentally less than they should be able to get. Add to this the changing SMP fortunes of men and women as they age and it is very unlikely that the average unhaaaapy wife could actually marry a more attractive man. In this case an ego puncture would be kindness. Lastly, she can make her husband more attractive by following the repeated instruction to wives to submit to their husbands.

  38. Novaseeker

    That, i think, is what churches are up against these days.

    Yes, I agree, but what is lacking is courage. The church needs the courage to once again become really counter cultural by realizing that trying to remain relevant to an increasingly godless and pagan culture is only subverting the message of the church, and that it will need to endure persecution, in many ways similar to that which the early church did, in order to effectively function as *church*, rather than scrambling to preserve some remnant of its place as a cultural institution. This takes courage. It is lacking currently.

  39. Deep Strength

    Hosea 4

    God’s Controversy with Israel

    1Listen to the word of the LORD, O sons of Israel,
    For the LORD has a case against the inhabitants of the land,
    Because there is no faithfulness or kindness
    Or knowledge of God in the land.

    2There is swearing, deception, murder, stealing and adultery.
    They employ violence, so that bloodshed follows bloodshed.

    3Therefore the land mourns,
    And everyone who lives in it languishes
    Along with the beasts of the field and the birds of the sky,
    And also the fish of the sea disappear.

    4Yet let no one find fault, and let none offer reproof;
    For your people are like those who contend with the priest.

    5So you will stumble by day,
    And the prophet also will stumble with you by night;
    And I will destroy your mother.

    6My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.
    Because you have rejected knowledge,
    I also will reject you from being My priest.
    Since you have forgotten the law of your God,
    I also will forget your children.

    7The more they multiplied, the more they sinned against Me;
    I will change their glory into shame.

    8They feed on the sin of My people
    And direct their desire toward their iniquity.

    9And it will be, like people, like priest;
    So I will punish them for their ways
    And repay them for their deeds.

    10They will eat, but not have enough;
    They will play the harlot, but not increase,
    Because they have stopped giving heed to the LORD.

    11Harlotry, wine and new wine take away the understanding.

    12My people consult their wooden idol, and their diviner’s wand informs them;
    For a spirit of harlotry has led them astray,
    And they have played the harlot, departing from their God.

    13They offer sacrifices on the tops of the mountains
    And burn incense on the hills,
    Under oak, poplar and terebinth,
    Because their shade is pleasant.
    Therefore your daughters play the harlot
    And your brides commit adultery.

    14I will not punish your daughters when they play the harlot
    Or your brides when they commit adultery,
    For the men themselves go apart with harlots
    And offer sacrifices with temple prostitutes;
    So the people without understanding are ruined.

    15Though you, Israel, play the harlot,
    Do not let Judah become guilty;
    Also do not go to Gilgal,
    Or go up to Beth-aven
    And take the oath:
    “As the LORD lives!”

    16Since Israel is stubborn
    Like a stubborn heifer,
    Can the LORD now pasture them
    Like a lamb in a large field?

    17Ephraim is joined to idols;
    Let him alone.

    18Their liquor gone,
    They play the harlot continually;
    Their rulers dearly love shame.

    19The wind wraps them in its wings,
    And they will be ashamed because of their sacrifices.

    You know, Hosea 4:6 always resonated with me — my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge.

    Obviously application in many circumstances such as subsequent verses

    ~ “eat but never have enough” — obesity anyone?
    ~ “play the harlot but not increase” — STDs decreasing and inhibiting pregnancy
    ~ “wine and new wine take away the understanding” — bar culture & debauchery
    ~ “For a spirit of harlotry has led them astray,” — aka spirit of Jezebel, aka feminism
    ~ “And they have played the harlot, departing from their God.” — the original post
    ~ “Therefore your daughters play the harlot” — pretty obvious
    ~ “And your brides commit adultery.” — adultery both cheating on the husband, and adultery remarrying
    ~ “I will not punish your daughters when they play the harlot” — yep, feminism praises them!
    ~ “Or your brides when they commit adultery,” — cash and prizes!
    ~ “For the men themselves go apart with harlots” — yep, a lot of Christian men have strayed in the world, sadly
    ~ “And offer sacrifices with temple prostitutes;” — man up and marry those sluts?
    ~ “So the people without understanding are ruined.” — Yes indeed

    I think some people were kind of skirting around with Hosea in the previous couple threads, but it’s certainly an extremely applicable book just all of Paul’s Epistles and Revelation 2 and 3 are to today’s culture.

    Ah, the irony.

  40. ray

    not surprising that a chief informational organ of the gynarchy — the Atlantic — is continuing to merge our secular/feminist culture with the dregs of denominational “christianity”

    “Ms. Prior Swallow”! ya cant make this stuff up, God is hilarious, unfortunately these heretics and hypocrites are very serious, and in power everywhere

    the prot churches have largely been co-opted by collective female will for quite awhile now, and The Atlantic (and all other MSM) seek to stamp out any last traces of actual Christ-ness, prophetic vigor, and/or masculinity from the mainstream denominations

    the purpose, obvioulsy, is to make “christianity” just another venue for female control and power, with proxy “men” out-front as pastors and ministers, expressing and advancing the Narrative agreed-upon by national female consensus

    hell O Christianity Today!

    hey, it worked in the government, schools, workplaces, and homes!

    the takeover already has largely been accomplished, in tandem with the commercialization of the churches, and the careerist-mentalities of church officials and “leaders” i’m a doctor of divinity blah blah

    when i point this stuff out online to christian women, they go directly into Personal Destruction Attack Mode, no different than any secular, feminist female in america

  41. Dalrock

    @Novaseeker

    …what is lacking is courage. The church needs the courage to once again become really counter cultural by realizing that trying to remain relevant to an increasingly godless and pagan culture is only subverting the message of the church, and that it will need to endure persecution, in many ways similar to that which the early church did, in order to effectively function as *church*, rather than scrambling to preserve some remnant of its place as a cultural institution. This takes courage. It is lacking currently.

    While this is certainly true, I think there is a crucial layer of denial we have to burn though first. Very few either in the pews or at the pulpit are even aware that feminism has had an impact. They know instinctively to avoid or rationalize away the Scripture which is offensive to feminism, but it is a sort of doublethink. It is quite striking to talk with truly conservative Christians and start to point these things out. They start off with the attitude “You are right, those other churches are really corrupted by this stuff, I’m sure glad mine isn’t.” But then you start to dig a little deeper and walk through examples, and it becomes obvious that their church is fully corrupted too.

  42. Feminist Hater

    I will keep asking the question. If it is not sin to have sex outside of marriage and purity means nothing, why should a man get married at all?

  43. anonymous

    the purpose, obvioulsy, is to make “christianity” just another venue for female control and power….hey, it worked in the government, schools, workplaces, and homes!…

    Until the men finally snap and say, “Allah-u Akbar”.

    [ssm: Which, no doubt, is Satan's plan.]

  44. Butterfly Flower

    Following on this, Western Christendom has been under enormous social and political pressure. Every church scandal is held up as proof of hypocrisy and lack of credibility. Churches have been subjected to enormous monetary judgments for the wrongs of a few of its misguided clergy. The church’s beliefs and tenets on sexual and other kinds of morality are denigrated and pooh-poohed as archaic, unnecessary throwbacks to a long-gone era. The church is under pressure to “modernize” and “update” itself so as to “get with it” and remain “relevant”.

    I’m not calling out any specific denomination or church, but I think sometimes churches modernize and “get with it” in an attempt to appeal to more parishioners (and their money). Sermons do not address sins because the clergy do not want to risk damaging the church’s attendance numbers or their book sales (i.e. lose money).

    Although the commercialization of Christianity is merely a symptom of the churches’ decline…

  45. alcestiseshtemoa

    But then you start to dig a little deeper and walk through examples, and it becomes obvious that their church is fully corrupted too.

    It’s almost like a virus apocalypse out of some science-fiction/fantasy movie.

  46. deti

    “There also is the issue of her overrating herself and overestimating what she should expect in her husband to be attracted to him. There is a massive amount of denial about a simple fact; she was looking for the best man she could attract, and he was that man. There may be some inefficiencies in the MMP, but realistically very few women are guilty of “settling” for fundamentally less than they should be able to get. Add to this the changing SMP fortunes of men and women as they age and it is very unlikely that the average unhaaaapy wife could actually marry a more attractive man. In this case an ego puncture would be kindness.”

    This part:

    “realistically very few women are guilty of “settling” for fundamentally less than they should be able to get. ”

    Is probably true, but almost NO women BELIEVE it to be true. Women are bombarded with cultural images and messages that (per Susan Walsh and her focus groupers) “boyfriends are ugly”, that husbands are bumbling idiots. Their girfriends tell them their BFs or husbands are boobs or dunderheads or morons or sexual illiterates or pudgy, unattractive dolts.

  47. Butterfly Flower

    It’s almost like a virus apocalypse out of some science-fiction/fantasy movie.

    Nawh, it’s more like putting on those magic sunglasses that let you see the martian demon-things [?] secretly controlling the world from the horror movie “They Live”.

  48. Frank

    I noticed they take the most extreme examples, where the women are shamed even after they repent and practice chastity, and then use that as further rationalization for having sexual histories before marriage. You can see they’re looking for excuses here.

  49. Frank

    [ssm: Frank, that's hysterical. I'm editing it into the OP. Too funny.]

    Humor might just be my biggest game advantage. LOL

  50. Novaseeker

    While this is certainly true, I think there is a crucial layer of denial we have to burn though first. Very few either in the pews or at the pulpit are even aware that feminism has had an impact.

    No doubt — in many cases this is a critical first step.

  51. deti

    Just about every married woman believes she settled for these reasons:

    1. Her girlfriends tell her she did.
    2. At least one of her girlfriends is married/in an LTR with a much. much more attractive and sexier man than her husband is.
    3. There is in her past at least one, much, much more attractive and sexier man than her husband is.

  52. earl

    God’s standards are impossible in this day and age…only because of the pill.

    Take away the pill and then see how impossible it is for Christian women to not have sex outside of marriage.

    [ssm: Amen, and I totally agree.]

  53. sunshinemary

    Dalrock:

    I don’t think this is entirely correct. I’ve seen quite a number of women describe how a change in their mindset changes the way they experience sex with their husbands. This shouldn’t be surprising from a Game perspective. Wives who see it as their duty to have sex with her husband tend to find the idea of being “owned” by their husband arousing. Submission is sexy, and submitting to their husband sexually especially so. There also is the issue of her overrating herself and overestimating what she should expect in her husband to be attracted to him. There is a massive amount of denial about a simple fact; she was looking for the best man she could attract, and he was that man. There may be some inefficiencies in the MMP, but realistically very few women are guilty of “settling” for fundamentally less than they should be able to get. Add to this the changing SMP fortunes of men and women as they age and it is very unlikely that the average unhaaaapy wife could actually marry a more attractive man. In this case an ego puncture would be kindness. Lastly, she can make her husband by following the repeated instruction to wives to submit to their husbands.

    OK, I’m really glad you said this because what you wrote is what I have always thought, which is why I wrote that post on my old blog about how a former slut who is not attracted to her husband could use radical submission to increase her attraction to him. So many people disagreed with me about my assertion that I figured I must be wrong. I was basing it on my own experience – I’ve always been attracted to my husband, but when we moved to a more explicitly biblical marital hierarchy, and I made true submission a priority, my attraction for him increased even more. But several people disagreed vehemently that a woman who loses (or never had) attraction to her husband can ever get it back again no matter what she does, and I’ve sort of been going off that belief since then, but now I think it’s wrong.

    I’m going to edit the original post to reflect this thought.

  54. Deep Strength

    @ SSM

    But several people disagreed vehemently that a woman who loses attraction to her husband can ever get it back again no matter what she does, and I’ve sort of been going off that belief since then, but now I think it’s wrong.

    It’s definitely harder because there is more relationship baggage that needs to be overcome. But it is certainly doable.

    That’s why books like Married Man Sex Life actually work. However, they only work part of the time. The other part of the time is that the woman is so checked out from the relationship that it spirals towards divorce.

    Of course, it would help better if the woman were to focus on her submission AND the man was to focus on upping the leadership/alpha.

  55. anonymous

    Take away the pill and then see how impossible it is for Christian women to not have sex outside of marriage.

    The fall of industrial civilization, would make pill manufacturing impossible (along with a lot of other things).

    And feminism is destroying industrial civilizaiton…. Hmm…

  56. MattW (@IMojammer)

    A large part of my conversion to Christianity was the idea of repentance, being able to be washed clean and truly change heart and mind and become more Christ-like. I fully agree with everything in this post and am repulsed by the don’t-slut-shame crowd because of the real consequences of ever loosening social mores, while at the same time I think to myself, “Who am I to judge those who have made mistakes in their past? Are they not worthy of God’s forgiveness as much as I am?”

    It’s a conundrum.

  57. Miserman

    I wonder how far the evangelical church is from proclaiming that it is women who are the saviors of the church? It can’t be far behind Representative Jan Schakowsky of Illinois declaring:

    Our survival as a species is dependent on women taking charge.

    Original article here.

    [ssm: I remember Vox Day putting up that same article. What a load. Feminism is incompatible with the survival of the species.]

  58. Elspeth

    @ Earl:

    The pill. You’re absolutely correct. It’s amazing how many women were able to hold out when they knew that giving in meant the possibility of being pregnant and found out.

    Just about every married woman believes she settled for these reasons:

    1. Her girlfriends tell her she did.
    2. At least one of her girlfriends is married/in an LTR with a much. much more attractive and sexier man than her husband is.
    3. There is in her past at least one, much, much more attractive and sexier man than her husband is.

    I have always had the distinct impression that I married up to some degree, so leaving me out of it: Do you really believe this is true of almost every married woman out there? If so, I find it rather depressing.

    Also, I think families play a bigger role in the “you could do better” sermons than girl friends do. My husband’s very pretty, very virtuous, Christian cousin (21 years old) is dating a nice, godly young man. Thing is, he isn’t all that handsome. At least no objectively, although she seems to think he’s attractive.

    I can’t tell you how many times my husband has rebuked members of his family for disparaging the young man because they think she can do better. Families are a big part of it, if not the biggest part. They stir the pot, the girlfriends just add the seasonings later.

    [ssm: By the way, readers might be interested in Artificial birth control: Satan’s little helper, in which we discussed how the pill has affected women's health and changed society for the worse.]

  59. Frank

    What bothers me is that this makes it harder to tell how sincere one’s repentance is over a sexual past. They’re peddling the lackadaisical attitude of “holiness” so for all you know a girl is thinking, “Meh, I’m going to have fun and then repent later when I’m 30 and ready to settle down, I know God will understand” instead of being truly convicted over her sins.

  60. Entropy is My God

    Women as a whole, have adopted the philosophy of Aleister Crowley, namely “do what thou wilt”. They can ride the Alpha carousel while in high school, college and early work life. Then they can snag a BETA provider to create fashion accessories called children. Then she can use these fashion accessories “children” as leverage to acquire BETA provision until the last “child” turns 26 (under Obama care, created by Obama, who the vast majority of women voters voted for). Then, provisions, secured, fashion accessories safely out of HER new house, she is free to rejoin the ride on the carousel.

    All of this is possible due only to a surplus of resources. Once that surplus of resources runs dry, once there are no more BETA white nights to protect sweet little dearies, well “Do what thou wilt” takes on an entirely new light doesn’t it.

    I don’t pray for the end of our corrupt, despicable, civilization for revenge, but for justice. I want the sweet dearies to have the world they always wanted.

  61. earl

    Humanae Vitae by Pope Paul VI was written in July 1968. For a celibate pope he was able to predict everything that would happen because of the pill.

    That is also why even though Catholic women take the pill…the Roman Catholic Church will never back the pill and it is a grave sin to take it.

  62. Dalrock

    @Deti

    Just about every married woman believes she settled for these reasons:

    1. Her girlfriends tell her she did.
    2. At least one of her girlfriends is married/in an LTR with a much. much more attractive and sexier man than her husband is.
    3. There is in her past at least one, much, much more attractive and sexier man than her husband is.

    Yes, although I think it is even worse. One man who diddled her in the bathroom of a club was rich, another man was tall, another man was athletic, another man was funny, another was smart, etc. They seem to then assume they deserve the composite of the best qualities of all of the men they had casual sex with, and they expect this to come with an offer of marriage.

    There is a way around this, and that is for them to honestly look at their prospects if they divorce. The best way to do this is to have them name women they know who divorced. Not movie stars, fictional characters or friends of a friend, but women they actually know. This would seem obvious but this is a crucial step. Don’t look at Eat Pray Love the movie, but the real story. Don’t look at the latest vampire movie, etc. Then look to see did the woman actually do better, or is she the but of gossip by the women who stayed married when she shows up at the party either alone or with her new man who is clearly a step (or three) down. As reality floods in they will be furious, but they will see the truth.

    @Earl

    Take away the pill and then see how impossible it is for Christian women to not have sex outside of marriage.

    Likewise, notice how suddenly possible it is for these women to have sex with their husbands when they want to get pregnant.

    @SSM

    OK, I’m really glad you said this because what you wrote is what I have always thought, which is why I wrote that post on my old blog about how a former slut who is not attracted to her husband could use radical submission to increase her attraction to him.

    Part of the issue is that true repentance is extremely humbling. If a woman broke her ability to bond with her husband (and the father of her children) through promiscuous sex, if she truly repents the mechanism is there in the form of humility for her to feel attraction for her husband. But she has to face the very painful truth to get that relief. If she is still angry at him for “not being sexy enough”, then she hasn’t really repented.

  63. Cail Corishev

    One of the most damaging things modernism in all forms of Christianity has done is to teach people that God’s standards are impossible to meet. They’re presented as a nice theory, but not something a regular person could actually aspire to. (Interestingly, it’s the same on the other end — we’re taught that there’s no real damning sin anymore; Hell is a pretty empty place these days. We’re just all mediocre, 51% good and hoping that’s good enough.)

    It was a real eye-opener when I heard a Catholic speaker quote, “Be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect,” and talk about it like something possible! Then I heard a priest talk about how people who confess their sins regularly and really work on it sometimes pretty much stop sinning altogether, as if it’s not that unusual. So meeting God’s standards isn’t reserved to a handful of saints; it’s something we’re all supposed to work toward — and as an achievable goal, not something we’re satisfied to make 75% of.

    Most of the time we fail, but that doesn’t change the standard. That’s why Jesus founded a Church and gave us the sacraments, and why He gives us the grace we need — to meet that standard. A core principle of Christianity is supposed to be that He never asks more of us than we’re capable of doing with His help.

    Once you abandon that goal and set your standard at 80% of perfect, then you get to pick and choose the sins which you’re going to fill in the other 20% of your time with. For most people, those will be from the 6th and 9th Commandments. That’s where we are today: “Well, obviously I can’t be perfect, so I’ll spend my imperfect hours getting laid.”

    [ssm: Great comment - the last paragraph is a huge part of the problem.]

  64. deti

    “I married up to some degree, so leaving me out of it: Do you really believe this is true of almost every married woman out there? If so, I find it rather depressing.”

    Oh, I don’t know if it’s true of every single married woman; but I think it’s true of a majority.

    “Also, I think families play a bigger role in the “you could do better” sermons than girl friends do”

    I didn’t think about this, but I think you are probably right particularly if she comes from a large family with a lot of siblings or from parents with an intact marriage.

  65. Dalrock

    @Earl

    Take away the pill [and child support] and then see how impossible it is for Christian women to not have sex outside of marriage.

    Correction inserted in brackets.

  66. earl

    “Then I heard a priest talk about how people who confess their sins regularly and really work on it sometimes pretty much stop sinning altogether, as if it’s not that unusual.”

    I try to go once a week…usually for the same stuff. Eventually you start getting sick of those sins because you keep repeating them and that motivates you to stop doing them.

  67. sunshinemary

    Dalrock:

    of the issue is that true repentance is extremely humbling. If a woman broke her ability to bond with her husband (and the father of her children) through promiscuous sex, if she truly repents the mechanism is there in the form of humility for her to feel attraction for her husband. But she has to face the very painful truth to get that relief. If she is still angry at him for “not being sexy enough”, then she hasn’t really repented.

    The likelihood of a woman figuring that out on her own, when the surrounding culture and the feministic Church with its turncoat pastors are telling her the exact opposite, is dishearteningly low. Of course, reading the Bible and listening to the Holy Spirit should tell her this, but she can’t hear it because everyone and everything else is aiding and abetting her rationalization hamster in telling her that none of this mess is really her fault.

  68. Elspeth

    The reality is that when a woman understands that she doesn’t deserve a husband and family after living a certain way, that is a clear sign of true repentance.

    It’s actually a sign of repentance for anyone, not just those who committed sexual sins. The proof is in the realization that any good thing we get is a matter of mercy and not merit (“I’m pretty.” “I’m changed” “I was young, didn’t know any better”, etc).

    Most of us never get there, do we?

  69. Elspeth

    Continuing, as I cut my thought off before I completed it.

    When said woman understands that her husband is an undeserved gift, her gratitude for the fact that she has a husband at all will go a long, long way toward creating the bond that will be hard to cement any other way.

  70. Butterfly Flower

    One of the most damaging things modernism in all forms of Christianity has done is to teach people that God’s standards are impossible to meet. They’re presented as a nice theory, but not something a regular person could actually aspire to. (Interestingly, it’s the same on the other end — we’re taught that there’s no real damning sin anymore; Hell is a pretty empty place these days. We’re just all mediocre, 51% good and hoping that’s good enough.)

    I think you’ve highlighted a struggle facing the majority of Millennial Christians.

    I often felt what I did wasn’t good enough for God, or my efforts to avoid sin were an absolute waste of time because “once saved, always saved”. Heck, I still have those feelings.

    That’s where we are today: “Well, obviously I can’t be perfect, so I’ll spend my imperfect hours getting laid.”

    Coincidentally, that is the sort-of logic that fuels my faith in the Kami. “Jesus doesn’t respect me so I might as well pray to Amaterasu, at least she is pleased by my behavior”. The Kami are not perfect beings, so they do not demand perfection.

  71. Cail Corishev

    This whole “it’s just a thing, just physical, just the outside” vs. “what truly and what just matters is on the inside, in the heart” as if the soul and body are disconnected and have nothing to do with each other.

    This is a feature of many, many heresies, including today’s modernism and everything having to do with New Age — the spirit is pure and wonderful, while the body is either evil or imaginary (yes, really). It’s not hard to see how someone who believes this could conclude that it’s okay to let his body perform impure acts as long as his spirit has good thoughts about everything. Surely God will judge his spiritual intentions, and not the grubby stuff his matter got up to down in the mud.

  72. Thankful Husband

    Reading stories & comments like this remind me just how wonderful my beautiful wife is! She’s hard to take for granted…but stories like this sure keep it in the front of my mind to not take for granted a wife who is loving, giving, submissive and available. Not to mention was pure. Living on top of mountain it’s easy to forget what the true attitude of the world (and it’s women) are…thank you for reminding me. I think I’ll go buy her a gift and sweet talk her!

    [ssm: Yep, it's good to be reminded of that sometimes. Reading in the spinstersphere reminds me to be doubly grateful that I have a good husband.]

  73. crimsonviceroy

    Plenty of men have no problem living up to that “impossible” standard. We’ve learned how to keep it in our pants. Perhaps the young ladies need a lesson in it. I think these articles are nothing more than regret and remorse because they don’t want to feel as though they were the only ones to make the blunder and sin of getting the hots for “alpha” instead of taking every thought captive and binding it in the name of the Holy Spirit. They would feel better if they got validation through popular consent that others were sinning in the same way. They seem to think that Heaven is a democracy and the more supporters they have in premarital “alpha fun”, the more accepting God will be due to popular consent. Clearly all that OT “wrath of God” stuff just flew out the window.

    To continue to market marriage to chaste and virgin young Christian men, when increasingly higher number of young Christian women are not living up to that standard is basically violating the Godly mandate to NOT be unequally yoked. There is very much a spiritual bonding of flesh that happens, and when a man marries a woman who has had previous relations, it is in fact a tri-lateral union that is the recipe for all kinds of sins and troubles. I mean, if we are being honest, in the old Church, any woman who sinned in such a way would have had to marry the man she first had relations with. For she would have, through the act, joined herself to another to become one flesh…that’s marital union. Therefore, marrying someone who has had sexual relations with another, even though they are not married in the eyes of Big Papa Gov and Churchianity, is basically committing the act of adultery, for the union is not dissolved, only unto death is it removed..therefore widows are exempt. Any thoughts?

  74. sunshinemary

    The reality is that when a woman understands that she doesn’t deserve a husband and family after living a certain way, that is a clear sign of true repentance.

    Oh, but it isn’t just that women think they deserve a husband, it’s that conservative Christian men are telling them that they DO deserve a husband no matter what they have done, so long as they have repented; they do this by simply accepting the damaged product that women offer and saying, “Oh well, I guess I’ll have to take it if this is the only thing there is.”

    I’m a fan of Alan Roebuck at The Orthosphere and try to read everything he writes, but he basically said this exact thing in response to my question about whether he would advise a man to marry a woman who was not a virgin. He wrote:

    But if she has repented, she may be the best wife for him. (Notice the word “may.”)
    And looking at the big picture, if most women are not virgins then many men will have no choice but to marry non-virgins. We cannot just call off marriage until things have been fixed. And it is possible for men to work with their women to help improve their character.

  75. Butterfly Flower

    This is a feature of many, many heresies, including today’s modernism and everything having to do with New Age — the spirit is pure and wonderful, while the body is either evil or imaginary (yes, really). It’s not hard to see how someone who believes this could conclude that it’s okay to let his body perform impure acts as long as his spirit has good thoughts about everything. Surely God will judge his spiritual intentions, and not the grubby stuff his matter got up to down in the mud.

    “Pure spirit, vile body” is a heretic belief that spans back to the Gnostic cults of early Christianity. The Borborites’ defined virginity by purity of the spirit. They also engaged in bacchanalian orgies.

  76. Ton

    The bullshit on Protestants is old. No church out there is worth a damn, most assuredly the Catholic church as well.

  77. Cail Corishev

    Part of the issue is that true repentance is extremely humbling.

    Yeah, we don’t do humility much as a society — we do guilt real well, especially as a group like White Liberal Guilt, but not humility, which is something very different.

    As a Catholic, I can testify that Confession is brutal — but it’s a brutality that’s necessary for me. I’m too good a bullshitter, to other people and to myself, to get anywhere if all I have to do is convince myself and my friends and family that I’m a good person. But when I kneel down in that confessional, all that just strips away and I want to make it right as quickly as possible and get out of there. And if I knowingly leave out a sin or gloss over something, it’ll be invalid plus another sin is added to the list, so I’ll just have to go an extra time, which is the last thing I want. I hate doing it, and resist going in every time, and then feel so clean afterwards.

    I don’t say all that to proselytize, but to agree that true repentance — which for me doesn’t happen until I’m down on my knees asking for the sacrament — is completely incompatible with pride or excuses. If you’re rationalizing your actions or patting yourself on the back because at least you’re not as bad as Hitler, then you’re not repentant yet. (Funnily enough, priests say that people often launch into excuses in the confessional, and they have to stop them and get them back on track just listing the sins.) Repentance is when you get down to just, “I blew it and I’m sorry.”

  78. Elspeth

    If you’re rationalizing your actions or patting yourself on the back because at least you’re not as bad as Hitler, then you’re not repentant yet.

    This is exactly right.

  79. Ton

    Does any woman see anything as an undeserved gift? Damn near daily some woman will floor me with her since of entitlement and lack of gratitude. These things are day in and day out common as dirt observations so the idea a woman would see her husband as a gift is difficult to believe

  80. Frank

    Speaking of what women think they deserve, I’ve been bashed on my blog for some of the criteria I look for when considering a prospective wife. Here’s a few excerpts:

    I get the vibe from your posts that you sort of have a sense of entitlement about the type of woman you DESERVE. Now you might choose to say I don’t know you or what I’m talking about, and hey, you’d at least be half right, but that is the impression I have received from your posts.

    I love that you are saving yourself for marriage, and I wish I would have done a lot of things differently, but please don’t cater to the belief that you DESERVE anything, that is a dangerous place to be.

    I agree that you should have certain desires in a mate, and the fact that you haven’t settled is testament to your singleness. (Which I support whole-heartily) I am curious what you think about the story of Hosea? What if God calls you to marry a single mom? What then? Can you let go of your desires and embrace what He wants for you?

    Never once do I say I deserve a Christian virgin girl with no baggage. I just give off that VIBE.

  81. Elspeth

    Does any woman see anything as an undeserved gift?

    LOL. You have a point, and I can only speak for myself, but I am keenly aware of how blessed I am to have my husband. I know full well that I don’t deserve the marriage family that I have, and that it is a testament to God’s grace that we have made it this far. And I still love him madly. Go figure!

    It isn’t easy for any person, man or woman, to wrap their minds around the fact that the only thing we are deserving of is death. But if you can get there, surely you can appreciate your life, your husband, everything much more than people seem to.

  82. anonymous_ng

    One of the things that drove me from the non-denom seats was a generalized feeling that despite the bible studies, mission trips, small groups, and Christian radio, that they were not much different from the non-Christians living in the community. The last straw was one of the more prominent women in the church while performing in a play was nattering on about feelings whilst supposedly witnessing to the other actor. I wanted to vomit.

    My experience in the Orthodox church is that the ascetic practices put them quite firmly at odds with the surrounding culture. I’ve no illusions that it’s a magic pill as I’m sure there are plenty of people who are only nominally Orthodox.

  83. Cail Corishev

    To be fair to the churches, I think they do care about more than keeping the pews and the collection plate full. I think they look out and see all these sinners, most of whom are pretty lackadaisical about attending church at all, and they say to themselves, “We can’t save them if they don’t show up and listen.” So they try to find a happy medium which will allow them to reach lots of people, and yet preach the truth to them — or at least a subset of the truth that won’t drive most of them out into the darkness.

    Unfortunately, they’ve compromised far too much, actually subverting the truth on some matters and abandoning it on others. It’s questionable whether the compromise was even necessary, too. I’m reading lots of articles about how young Catholics today are asking for more tradition and more challenge, while their parents and grandparents are still stuck in 1970, pushing to dumb things down and make church more fun for the kids. And those who were going to leave left anyway, despite all the compromises, so it’s possible that, had the churches held strong against the radicals in the 1960s, they would’ve lost fewer people in the long run, and we’d already be on the way to recovery.

  84. sunshinemary

    I got an email from Captain Capitalism that readers might find of interest:

    hi Mary,

    Read through your latest post and thought you might like this podcast I did a while ago. It is about the baby boomer meat markets I’ve accidentally witnessed, specifically, how older women who should be grandmothers and grandmotherly are shamefully far from it. I even go on to speculate the grandmothers of the past (Aunt Bea types from The Andy Griffith Show) will become extinct, supplanted by aging, women who booze it up and “party,” rarely spending time with children. Regardless, here’s the podcast:

    https://www.box.com/s/cfhjrwg85nef2dws4ci5

    I haven’t listened to it yet, but I plan to later this evening.

  85. alcestiseshtemoa

    “Pure spirit, vile body” is a heretic belief that spans back to the Gnostic cults of early Christianity. The Borborites’ defined virginity by purity of the spirit. They also engaged in bacchanalian orgies.

    Interesting BF. I think I will buy a e-book about Christian heresies, or even go around the Internet and search for articles on Christian heresies because it seems that these things are springing up again and again in various places and various formats, but their essence is the same.

    The e-book on Christian heresies would be a good addition to the expose on the heretical Word of Faith cult.

  86. alcestiseshtemoa

    This is a feature of many, many heresies, including today’s modernism and everything having to do with New Age — the spirit is pure and wonderful, while the body is either evil or imaginary (yes, really). It’s not hard to see how someone who believes this could conclude that it’s okay to let his body perform impure acts as long as his spirit has good thoughts about everything. Surely God will judge his spiritual intentions, and not the grubby stuff his matter got up to down in the mud.

    Great comment Cail Corishev.

  87. Butterfly Flower

    Interesting BF. I think I will buy a e-book about Christian heresies, or even go around the Internet and search for articles on Christian heresies because it seems that these things are springing up again and again in various places and various formats, but their essence is the same.

    I read two books that explained the Borborite (along with other Gnostic cult) beliefs:

    The Secret History of Western Sexual Mysticism: Sacred Practices and Spiritual Marriage
    Hidden Intercourse: Eros and Sexuality in the History of Western Esotericism

  88. Novaseeker

    My experience in the Orthodox church is that the ascetic practices put them quite firmly at odds with the surrounding culture. I’ve no illusions that it’s a magic pill as I’m sure there are plenty of people who are only nominally Orthodox.

    We have our own sets of problems that are a bit different and a bit the same. We do have nominal Orthodox — many of these are people who grew up in the church and are just identified with it for family or ethnic reasons (note there are plenty of cradle Os who are not like this, too, it’s just that some of them are). We also have people who came in from other churches and most of these bring baggage with them. I am sure that I did from Catholicism as well. Ex-evangelicals, who make up the larger percentage of converts to Orthodoxy in North America, can bring some of the baggage we are discussing here into the church, too, even though almost all of them identify as very conservative (Liberty U does as well). So it’s a mixed bag. I have not noticed as much of a tendency among our priests to kowtow to women (the church is a bit different from Western Christianity) to the same degree, but there are exceptions to that among some of the former Catholic priests and evangelical ministers who are now Orthodox priests here.

  89. donalgraeme

    The reason they interpret your views as a sense of entitlement Frank, is because they are projecting. The people who lambast you all have a sentiment of entitlement which is simply staggering.

  90. Butterfly Flower

    Unfortunately, they’ve compromised far too much, actually subverting the truth on some matters and abandoning it on others.

    I was raised a Catholic and attended a Catholic School. I was exposed to many of the new “revitalized” Catholic doctrines. I struggled to understand the contradictions they presented – especially concerning the importance of confession. If “once saved always saved” than why was confession necessary? The sacrament seemed redundant.

  91. Looking Glass

    On what Deti & Novaseeker were talking about:

    It’s something to keep in mind that the 3 European religions are old-times Paganism (with a few slightly different forms), Marxism and National Socialism. (Though you can think of the Nazi’s as reformed Communists, in many ways) And that’s pretty much the game, right there.

    Modern Christianity has never responded to Marxism as a Religion and we’re actually in a low-scale religious war. It’s been foreign from the Western World since Westphalia, but it’s really quite amazing it’s taken this long to come back. But it also shows why the Modern Church has so many problems dealing with the drift: they’re not actually fighting a religious war.

    So the proper response is not to play a more “accurate” defense or accommodate. It’s attack, attack and attack some more. You need to get Medieval on their asses… rhetorically.

    For most of the Feminist and/or Marxist types, I believe most need to realize they do have a “god” and it’s “dumb luck”. That means what they believe in is *only* Power. Which is a pathetic religion, and something you should say to their face, then proceed to eat them apart on their inability to actually understand the world. A lot of things stem from this (some of which I won’t list here as you need to understand the arguments to really use some of the statements I’d make).

    Always “Deny Their Frame” and brutalize them for how pathetic theirs is. And when they try to go for some non-existent Theology via out of context quotation, be ready to mock them with Matthew 19:4, hehe. But never get into Theology argument with a non-Christian. Just say “why would I argue a point about a topic you’re completely ignorant of? Unless you want to concede I’m completely correct and you’re a vile, sinful, fallen human in need of Salvation.”

    It’d take only a few to really work through the firing line, and be skilled at it, for it to stick.

  92. alcestiseshtemoa

    I personally think that the best Roman Catholic Churches and Eastern Orthodox Churches are non-English speaking non-Protestants (like a combination between no English and no Protestantism). Like Portuguese-speaking Roman Catholics or Russian-speaking Orthodox Churches (that’s just my experience).

    Like there’s evangelicals and heretical Word of Faith preachers in Brazil and Angola, but both the unbelievers (non-Christians) and the Roman Catholic Christians are suspicious of them and sometimes warn about them quite openly. I don’t think the younger Christians like these Protestants at all.

    Of course, these Churches do have their own problems but compared to other places, they’re quite good.

  93. Frank

    The reason they interpret your views as a sense of entitlement Frank, is because they are projecting. The people who lambast you all have a sentiment of entitlement which is simply staggering.

    The same people also tend to say that water seeks its own level. That being the case, then my own level would be a woman who is also a virgin with a similar background. Apparently that’s too much to ask.

  94. nightskyradio

    anonymous – The fall of industrial civilization, would make pill manufacturing impossible (along with a lot of other things).

    And feminism is destroying industrial civilizaiton…. Hmm

    “See the spring of the grandfather clock unwinding
    See the hands of my offspring making windmills
    And I am a snake head eating
    The head on the opposite side…”

    Ouroboros is feasting, pass the butter.

  95. Butterfly Flower

    The same people also tend to say that water seeks its own level. That being the case, then my own level would be a woman who is also a virgin with a similar background. Apparently that’s too much to ask.

    No offense to anyone here; but ideally people do not want to marry someone with children from a previous relationship. So even a single mom does not want to marry a player with eight baby mamas.

    Single Moms want a nice responsible clean-cut Prince Charming to saunter into their life and raise their children from previous relationships, as their own.

    Previously I was going to comment “maybe the critic is attracted to Frank?” but I thought it sounded too troll-ish.

  96. alcestiseshtemoa

    Frank, these women hate, despise and hate assortive mating with terrible passion. Assortive mating is a bad deal for them. It’s bad, bad, bad.

    A fit man should settle for a fat/obese woman.
    A handsome man should settle for an ugly woman.
    A man with good personality should settle for a shrewish woman.
    A rich man should settle for a poor woman.
    A powerful man should settle for an underclass woman.
    A good man should settle for a bad woman.
    And on it goes…

    The formula is roughly: high SMV/MMV man should settle for low SMV/MMV woman.

    But were does that leave the high woman? And these same low women have the gall to call thin, pleasant, virtuous women sticks, anorexics, arrogant, proud, hateful, bigoted and so forth.

    What this high man-low woman dream for them reveals is that these women see average men as not only invisible but dangerous and contemptible. Heck, some of these women are average themselves (not low) and gunning for a high man all the way. It’s ridiculous.

  97. alcestiseshtemoa

    These low women don’t even notice and seem to hate average men by the way. It’s all status whoring and a power grab for them.

  98. Cail Corishev

    I was raised a Catholic and attended a Catholic School. I was exposed to many of the new “revitalized” Catholic doctrines. I struggled to understand the contradictions they presented – especially concerning the importance of confession. If “once saved always saved” than why was confession necessary?

    If a Catholic teacher told you “once saved always saved,” he should have been fired on the spot. My Catholic education was bad, but not that bad. That’s kinda the exact opposite of what Catholics believe. (It’s not even a very good representation of what most Protestants believe.)

  99. Elspeth

    No offense to anyone here; but ideally people do not want to marry someone with children from a previous relationship.

    No one should take offense at that, BF.

    My husband had a child from a previous relationship when we married and even he doesn’t want his girls to have to endure in their marriages some of the drama we endured in ours. Especially since most men are not as strong and resolute as he is about setting clear and impenetrable boundaries with ex’s they have reproduced with.

    And…even with all that he did to keep me reassured, the ex was able to push my buttons.

    It is completely reasonable, acceptable, and right for Frank to desire a virgin bride, particularly since he has saved himself for marriage to date. I don’t know why that would be offensive to anyone really.

  100. anonymous

    you can think of the Nazi’s as reformed Communists, in many ways

    For some odd reason I just had a hilarious mental picture of Hitler nailing 95 theses on Marx’s wooden door.

    Which raises the question — was he guilty of the Aryan heresy? (3rd century AD pun there, let the reader understand.)

  101. Elspeth

    The formula is roughly: high SMV/MMV man should settle for low SMV/MMV woman.

    But were does that leave the high woman? And these same low women have the gall to call thin, pleasant, virtuous women sticks, anorexics, arrogant, proud, hateful, bigoted and so forth.

    You know, there were more than a few people (starting with my father) who tried to convince me that I could “do better.” They were convinced that I was getting sucked in by good looks and cockiness. Maybe I was. Despite my relative inexperience with men when I met my husband, I think we are matched pretty well.

    As for your question about the high woman? There aren’t that many out there Alcestis. The ones who are pure are often shrewish and feign piety. They’ll marry a man as a project. After all, they’ve been taught in the pews that they are superior, and the fact that they didn’t fall into the same traps as everyone else doesn’t make them better wives, now does it?

    I’m not making excuses, but there is a reason why women marry men they find outside the church. Those are the men who command respect. Not until men refuse to capitulate and marry women they’d rather not marry will anything get better. They do after all, hold the keys to commitment.

  102. Frank

    Previously I was going to comment “maybe the critic is attracted to Frank?” but I thought it sounded too troll-ish.

    You’re not off the mark there (I know one of the women personally, and she’s actually a red-pill leaning sweetheart, the hamster just got the better of her there.)

    The other one came from the trollish GOMI site trying to run me off the net, and initially started tearing into me with a series of comments, but then came back and apologized. Her last comment even offered advice I found helpful (red pill advice.)

  103. Elspeth

    Typo in my last comment:

    After all, they’ve been taught in the pews that they are superior, and the fact that they didn’t fall into the same traps as everyone else makes them superior, doesn’t it? Their husband needs to follow their lead. And stop playing that stupid X-Box!

  104. Looking Glass

    @anonymous OG:

    I got the joke. I’m not sure if anyone else did. And it’s “Arian Hersey”, though it’s said the same. If that isn’t an inside-Theology joke, I don’t know what is.

  105. Some Guy

    If a young man is contemplating “Christian” marriage. He needs to know up front:

    The best case scenario if he is in the bottom 80% in terms of sex appeal is more than likely that he’ll end up having sex rationed out to him once a month or so after a few years. Far from being seen as a pillar of the church, he will be the butt of jokes delivered from the pulpit. His attempts to lead will be called selfishness. His attempts to correct will be called meanness and judgementalism. His attempts to call his wife and his Christian peers to biblical standards for marriage will be called Phariseeism. Meanwhile, his wife will go to a separate small group so that the other women can pat her on the back for doing the HARDEST JOB IN THE WORLD and for showing her husband what was what for asking her not to by a grill.

    I would not wish such a on my worst enemy.

    My advice to young men:

    No one will care if your wife frivorces you or takes your children from you. It will be seen as your fault and you will be mocked for it. The men in your church will make jokes about what they have to do to keep from being put in the dog house and will go out of their way to encourage your wife to do that sort of thing to you. If marrying a virgin improves your odds of not having to deal with those sorts of outcomes… then you are better off holding out for that rather than settling for damaged goods. But you can expect the church culture to poison her against you anyway:

    Women have an escape hatch for every new testament verse directed at them. If you don’t make her feeeeeeeel like following God, then her sins are on your head, as far as they are concerned.

  106. Butterfly Flower


    It is completely reasonable, acceptable, and right for Frank to desire a virgin bride, particularly since he has saved himself for marriage to date. I don’t know why that would be offensive to anyone really.

    I didn’t want to hurt the feelings of the divorcee commenters. It seems cruel, to view the children of divorcees as excess baggage. They’re people.

    As for your question about the high woman? There aren’t that many out there Alcestis. The ones who are pure are often shrewish and feign piety. They’ll marry a man as a project. After all, they’ve been taught in the pews that they are superior, and the fact that they didn’t fall into the same traps as everyone else doesn’t make them better wives, now does it?

    Why do you automatically assume the few Christian girls who remain choose to remain pure, are “shrewish” and use their purity for cheap status (which is ridiculous ’cause virgins are shamed in American society) or seek bad boys? Projecting your own jealousy, much?

  107. alcestiseshtemoa

    I’m not making excuses, but there is a reason why women marry men they find outside the church. Those are the men who command respect. Not until men refuse to capitulate and marry women they’d rather not marry will anything get better. They do after all, hold the keys to commitment.

    Men are the gatekeepers of commitment, yes, but women are the gatekeepers of sex. It takes two to tango.

    And yes, I know all about women finding men outside of the church to marry. I’ve seen it myself. My mother is one of those types. She met my father and then left her country and her religion.

    The problem is that she nearly ruined the spiritual well-being of our family and dragged us together into some heretical cult.

  108. Butterfly Flower

    If a Catholic teacher told you “once saved always saved,” he should have been fired on the spot. My Catholic education was bad, but not that bad. That’s kinda the exact opposite of what Catholics believe. (It’s not even a very good representation of what most Protestants believe.)

    It was written in the textbook .

    Although lets not single out the Catholic Church; poor religious education is a Christian-wide problem.

  109. alcestiseshtemoa

    *I’m ranting a bit, so this is a warning*

    Elspeth, my problem with “pure” Anglo women is that they aren’t pure. They just think that they can rule the Church like some Queen/Lady of Heaven.

    I hope not to make rape into a laughing stock and lower its value, but fake rape victims ruin the integrity of real rape victims. In the same way Anglo Puritan Victorian ladies make real virgins look bad. Pretty bad.

    That’s the entire point. And young virgin women seeking young virgin men (and not interested in bad boys, cads, players or thugs, contrary to stereotypes) have to carry this reputation around thanks to globalization and the spread of the English language.

    That I’m a shrew, some character out of “Pride and Prejudice” by Jane Austen, “prudish”, a Victorian Queen or some twisted lying “born again virgin” (thanks a lot, those women are a true circus show, apparently banging some foreign dude while on vacation doesn’t count as sex).

    It’s not good and it makes me batty or even crazy. It makes me frustrated and irritated.

  110. Laura C.

    It is an interesting point that for Catholics, Virgin is a special marker for a canonized saint, just like Bishop, Abbot, or Priest. What most people know it’s that along with Virgins like St. Maria Goretti, who preferred to be murdered rather than commit a sin, there are virgins like Sts. Nunilo and Alodia, who were put into whorehouses by their Muslim father as punishment for their Christian faith. Their physical virginity was taken from them, but the complete lack of will to lose it marked them out as virgins all the same. They were eventually martyred, and retain the appellation of virgin martyrs.

    There has to be a way of teaching purity that allows women to appreciate the precious and irrevocable gift that virginity is, while not mistaking genuine rape as the same as carelessly granted access to their body. I can’t help but think that there really isn’t that much value placed on intact hymens in this day and age, given pap smears and female athletics and whatnot.

  111. Elspeth

    It wasn’t my intent to disparage virgin brides, BF. Far from it. My point was that in the church today, women of all stripes (virtuous or not) have been thoroughly baptized into the ‘truth” that women are better, more spiritual, etc. When you haven’t committed any of the big sins, that tendency is more pronounced.

    I know because I was like that with my own husband. Except he was man enough to put me in my place, so it didn’t last long.

  112. Butterfly Flower

    Decent men exist outside of the church.

    My Mom married outside the church – very outside the church; my father is a Shinto-Buddhist.
    He is an intelligent, moral man and a wonderful Daddy whom I love very much.

    Sometimes I wonder if my Dad would have converted to Christianity, if the Christianity he encountered wasn’t so corrupted. I know my father would be skeptical if a Christian told him Jesus is against divorce, cohabitation, or premarital sex.

  113. Some Guy

    Decent men may exist outside the church, but that doesn’t mean you have the Apostle Paul’s blessings to go marry them.

    Oh yeah. Well I guess if you don’t feeeeeeeel like it it’s okay…?

    ??!

  114. TheShadowedKnight

    Laura, once a woman has sexual intercourse, consensual or forced, she is no longer a virgin. Simple as that. Is it fair to a rape victim? No. Life is not fair, but we still have to live it anyway.

    Just consider the absurdities of modern “rape” and the constant redefinition of the term. That woman may have consented to her “rape” and then changed her mind. If it was a legitimate rape, then she brings the mental issues and trauma from that experience, setting the tone of sexual relations from that point on. Virgin brides are better, no matter what personal feelings on the subject are. She my be virtuous, but a man in this day and age cannot run that risk. Yet another attempt to free women and give them the power backfiring and exploding in their faces.

    The Shadowed Knight

  115. Farm Boy

    We cannot just call off marriage until things have been fixed

    I dunno. Bad boys can do part of the job, and the government can do the rest.

  116. Frank

    It is completely reasonable, acceptable, and right for Frank to desire a virgin bride, particularly since he has saved himself for marriage to date. I don’t know why that would be offensive to anyone really.

    The amount of projecting is so rampant that I’ve gone over my blog posts repeatedly just to see if I actually did say I deserved or DEMANDED a virgin bride. The only thing I do make clear is that I would never date single moms.

  117. Some Guy

    “We cannot just call off marriage until things have been fixed”

    Is there are shred of evidence that young men are being negotiated with in good faith? Are they not being defrauded?

    Why should any man enter into it then…?

  118. anonymous

    I know my father would be skeptical if a Christian told him Jesus is against divorce, cohabitation, or premarital sex

    Jesus is against these things. Most modern “Christians” aren’t.

    Try these guys: http://www.orthodoxjapan.jp/

  119. FuzzieWuzzie

    @ Feminist Hater 1:50pm,
    “I will keep asking the question. If iti is not sin to have sex outside of marriage and purity means nothing, why do men get married at all?’

    I’m a little saddened that no one has yet stepped up to respond. Let me try… I’m 58, so it’s very unlikely for me to find a contemporary who hasn’t erred. The best that I can hope for is one that has come to regret making errors. Would that be fair?
    As to getting married, a lot of the stuff in the comments from yesreday argues against marriage. Out of the frying pan and into the fire BIG TIME. But there’s one thing that just keeps rattling around in my head; why did God take a rib from Adam and make Eve? Because Adam was lonely. Reason enough for Him.
    There’s more, months ago, SSM had a post on the subject of reasons for men to marry and challenge the guys to find ten. We failed miserably. Halfway through the comments, she posted a picture of that night’s dinner-pork loin roast. To a bachelor used to eating bachelor fare, that really HURT.
    There’s another thing, you get to sleep next to someone you care about. This is a big one for both the boys and the girls.
    Deti may be oversimplifying but , sex counts too.

  120. Elspeth

    Decent men may exist outside the church, but that doesn’t mean you have the Apostle Paul’s blessings to go marry them.

    Oh yeah. Well I guess if you don’t feeeeeeeel like it it’s okay…?

    No, it’s not okay. Not at all. But you know how we chicks are. We did it (well I did anyway) so our hamsters spin into rationalization overdrive.

  121. anonymous

    Decent men may exist outside the church, but that doesn’t mean you have the Apostle Paul’s blessings to go marry them.///

    …you know how we chicks are. We did it (well I did anyway) so our hamsters spin into rationalization overdrive.

    Bad memories of my single days… seeing Christian girls date nonbelievers while scores of good Christian men were ignored…. grrr..

  122. Frank

    I’m 58, so it’s very unlikely for me to find a contemporary who hasn’t erred. The best that I can hope for is one that has come to regret making errors. Would that be fair?

    You have the advantage where children are no longer a pressing issue in regards to dating single moms because they’re adults by now. I’d say your dating pool of prospects is much larger than mine.

  123. tz2026

    First, there is redemption. But I fear there is no more turning away from the old ways.

    Second, would any of these bitches desire a virgin husband? The biblical mandate applies to both sexes. If you go beyond Game, where status = number of hits, isn’t the ideal for TWO virgins to marry? And on what basis can a woman who is not have any call against a man who is?

    But Hardy’s view was that unlike virginity, virtue is located not in the hymen but in the soul: in one’s spirit, one’s desires, in one’s thoughts, one’s will. The virtue of the soul is expressed through the willful acts of the body.

    If the will is virtuous, the acts will be too, and both the soul and hymen will remain intact until the honeymoon night.

    Virtue is in the soul, but the body is a reflection. One might have a good “heart”, but gluttony and slothfulness will lead to a coronary.

    We are to look past outward appearances, but that does not mean we should deny flashing neon sign evidence of evils. Sometimes poison is sweet. Sometimes the bottle with the skull and crossbones is accurately labeled.

    (I would also note in passing that both the inside and outside need to be clean – a sweet fat woman is still sinning by abusing her body – and a bitchy thin aerobics instructor is sinning by not controlling her tongue or thoughts. Men will find neither naturally desirable).

  124. earl

    @ Butterfly

    If “once saved always saved” than why was confession necessary?

    John 20:22-23

    Jesus established the sacrament and past it to his apostles who have since passed it down to the priests of today. I never bought the idea that since I am saved I can live a life of sin and then be escorted into Heaven. Besides getting those sins out in the confessional…you have to think what you did, say them out loud, and take responsibility for getting forgiveness. It’s the best and cheapest therapy out there.

    It’s not an easy sacrament…even as private as the meetings are. But it really is like a 1000 pound weight being taken off your shoulders.

    The dirty little problem about sin is the more you do it the less you feel the need to be with God or receive his mercy. God gives everyone every opportunity…I’ve even read stories about people on their deathbed being redeemed after a heartfelt contrition. I have also read people who are in so despair reject that last chance…and give themselves a one way ticket to hell.

  125. Elspeth

    Bad memories of my single days… seeing Christian girls date nonbelievers while scores of good Christian men were ignored…. grrr..

    Sorry, didn’t mean to dredge up bad memories, Anon.

    We are strongly directing our girls toward choosing practicing Christian men, for what it’s worth.

  126. Farm Boy

    Matthew 5:48 “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.”

    Now updated to: “Be ye only slightly whorish, even as your gender neutral Parent which is in heaven is only slightly whorish.” – Frank

    Frank has a pretty good hamster simulator.

  127. anonymous

    Elspeth ..We are strongly directing our girls toward choosing practicing Christian men, for what it’s worth

    But why are Christian men so repulsive to Christian women? ..even if they’re tall, goodlooking, fit, with good jobs and a masculine demeanor… ?

    Why does stepping off the reservation and being a jerk for a few minutes, garner far more female attention than years of righteousness?

    I understand Game/Redpill intellectually. In fact I figured out a lot of it on my own, before the Manosphere… I just couldn’t believe my own conclusions. In my head it fits together, but in my heart, my soul, I still *JUST DON’T GET* the badboy-attraction that almost all women have.

    Don’t bother explaining it. I’ve been on the Manosphere long enough to have heard every hypothesis. This isn’t logic or science… This is gut. Logically, I know it’s true. Emotionally… I just “can’t believe it”. How could they POSSIBLY prefer bad boys?

  128. grey_whiskers

    @Farm Boy May 30, 2013 at 11:35 am , @ssm

    God’s purity standard is effectively impossible to meet.

    Oh, really?

    Does this hamsterbation apply to men’s well-known propensity to stray?
    Or does “sloppy seconds agape” only cover women?

  129. earl

    I am well aware of who God is…and He is the only legit fear I have.

    I hope most Christian females realize that God is the creator of the “evil patriarchy”. There is no rationalization hamster with His judgement…and yet he is also so generous with his mercy. I’d try to receive as much of that as possible.

  130. Farm Boy

    Could this be the ultimate origin of the feminist rape-hysteria? “All sex is rape” to them, because they can’t attract Alphas, hence all sex feeeeeeels like raype……

    Well, it at least it isn’t “rape-rape” as Whoopi would say. Be thankful for small favors.

    If rape laws were about protecting the virtue of women, how do they apply when women have no virtue?

  131. an observer

    Deti,

    Sorry in advance for nit picking.

    Most of the men are wimps, sexually inexperienced, and unlucky in love. Most of these men also give off the “good man, nice guy” vibe, which POST CAROUSEL women RELUCTANTLY SETTLE FOR in a husband WHOM THEY LATER DIVORCE, but despise in a boyfriend or sex partner.

  132. Laura C.

    Shadowed Knight:

    Good point. The virgin martyrs I mentioned would probably have sought religious life had they escaped with their lives. That’s baggage few mortal men could handle. For modern rape victims…I don’t know. Maybe it would be better to seek a celibate life. And I was speaking of legitimate rape. A young mother was sexually assaulted in broad daylight by a random stranger last month in a neighboring city, so it’s rather on my mind at the moment. Such things do happen. I’m also thinking of the girls my husband dated before he met me. He noted that many had been abused when younger and had given up on purity since they were already ruined. It’s that attitude that concerns me. They may have to much baggage to marry, but there should be someway to help them reclaim a sense of not being ruined for virtue even if they are ruined for marriage.

    A clarification on my end note. My husband, despite knowing I was a virgin, was shocked to discover that deflowering was painful for me. He just sort of assumed that most girls had that taken care of by 22 at a doctor’s appointment. Um, no.

  133. Farm Boy

    How could they POSSIBLY prefer bad boys?

    In the olden days, girls were taught to understand that shacking up with a bad boy could result in very bad things down the road.

    Nowadays, the pill and the government smooth things over.

  134. ukfred

    i wonder which way round is the cause and effect. The Methodist Church in Britain is the fastest declining mainstream denomination. In a report to conference, it was noted, without comment, that many young Methodists believe that cohabitation is both right and sensible and conference instructed a subgroup of the Faith and Order Committee to prepare a resource on cohabitation. Maybe I am getting a bit too old, but I would have thought that the only resource required was a reminder that the best oral contraceptive is the word, “No”.

    If we try to go to the root of the problem, a older gentleman in a church my wife and I used to attend summed it up when he said, “The Bible often tells us not to have hard hearts. But can anyone tell me where it says we have to have soft heads?”

    I have to admit that i was sexually experienced when I became a Christian. Shortly afterwards I moved to a different town and joined the local church. I was quite attracted to a divorcee who started to attend that church until she made it clear to me that she thought that she could give me a good time in bed and was willing to let me “try before you buy”. I felt that this was an indication that she was not the woman I ought to marry. Interestingly, my wife moved to that town soon after and she made it clear that she had to be married before she would share a bed with me, or anyone else for that matter. We did go on holiday together but never had any sexual activity until we were married and I think that was a good thing.

    When we look at Paul’s letter to the Romans, we are told not to conform to this world but to be transformed by the renewing of our minds in Christ Jesus. Since that means being different, I wonder if too many of our churchians simply say “Why bother?” And again, if we ignore the command to abstain from sexual immorality, what other Scriptural injunctions are we ignoring.

  135. Farm Boy

    Does this hamsterbation apply to men’s well-known propensity to stray?

    I will speak for myself, I have not and will not stray.

    As for other fellas, many have so much difficulty getting sex, that they could not stray; even if they wanted to.

  136. FuzzieWuzzie

    Frank,
    I did see a single mom for a while. It wasn’t going to work. One, step completely into her frame. Two, accept her dominance. Three, work my butt off for her household. Four, enjoy a status level sobordinate to the abused pooch.
    As for dating propects, my Dad was about my age when Mom passed on. He got a lot of attention. The refrigerator was full of casseroles. Not so for me. It wouldn’t surprise me if a lot of my contemporaries have thrown in the towel.
    Oh, what is poor bear with good intentions to do?
    Go out and eat berries!

  137. Farm Boy

    Oh, what is poor bear with good intentions to do?

    Didn’t Jesus say something about fishing?

    Are not bears good at fishing?

  138. Elspeth

    In the olden days, girls were taught to understand that shacking up with a bad boy could result in very bad things down the road.

    There needs to be a distinction made between bad boys and unbelievers. Not that good, unbelieving men are any more acceptable, and to be honest my husband was a little of both. That’s neither here nor there at this point (yeah, that’s partly my hamster but we’re 19 years in and husband is a strong believer now).

    But the answer to your query Anon, is that Christian men need to be taught that confidence and humility are not mutually exclusive. That it’s acceptable to lead and expect her to follow. I don’t know how you do that, but that’s my .02.

  139. Frank

    Frank,
    I did see a single mom for a while. It wasn’t going to work. One, step completely into her frame. Two, accept her dominance. Three, work my butt off for her household. Four, enjoy a status level subordinate to the abused pooch.

    You need to travel. Over seas. A LOT. My world changed when I started traveling more and realizing not everyone behaves and acts like they do in New York.

  140. Frank

    Is there any truth to the theory that some Christian women date unsaved men in an attempt to turn them into Christians?

  141. crimsonviceroy

    Frank,

    There’s great truth to that..just like how many of their secular counterparts like to date the “bad boy’s” so that they can reform him and still get that “alpha-ness” in a committed relationship. It ends pretty badly in the secular side when the “alpha” terminally disappoints them, much to their own ignorant chagrin.

  142. Elspeth

    Is there any truth to the theory that some Christian women date unsaved men in an attempt to turn them into Christians?

    Okay, I’ll answer your question.

    No, I wasn’t trying to turn my husband into a Christian. I was truly, sincerely “moved” (is that a good euphemism) by him in ways that I had never known before in my short 21 years of life.I wasn’t thinking at all of converting him, and I know how horrible that sounds, but I assume you want the truth.

    I initially thought he was a bad idea (too many girls liked him) and he dismissed my protestations as “cute” and “playing hard to get”. It happened that despite being from a rough side of town, he was smart, hardworking, and from a family where lifelong marriage was the norm rather than the exception, unlike my family of origin.

    But no, I never viewed him as a salvation project because he never seemed to believe he needed saving until years into the marriage.

    Now, I really should go because I opened a can of worms and I know it.

  143. Elspeth

    Okay, I shall stop bidding adieu because I keep commenting and I hate it when people do that.

    In response to Crimson Viceroy:

    There’s great truth to that..just like how many of their secular counterparts like to date the “bad boy’s” so that they can reform him and still get that “alpha-ness” in a committed relationship.

    Yes, a lot of women do that, but usually they take up with men of little to nominal faith that they found right there in the church. Most devout Christian women at least try to find men with a shell of a faith, I think.

    They usually know that he isn’t a true believer but they think they can get him to a deeper faith if they love him hard enough ad pray hard enough.

  144. Frank

    Now, I really should go because I opened a can of worms and I know it.

    LOL, you know what, who cares if the circumstances of how you met and became attracted to your husband wasn’t ideal. It worked out for you and you have a great family as a result.

  145. deti

    Elspeth:

    “No, I wasn’t trying to turn my husband into a Christian. I was truly, sincerely “moved” (is that a good euphemism) by him in ways that I had never known before in my short 21 years of life.”

    “Moved” = turned on.

    [ssm: Always quick with the hamsterlation...]

  146. anonymous

    Laura C : I’m also thinking of the girls my husband dated before he met me. He noted that many had been abused when younger and had given up on purity since they were already ruined

    I dated several rape and molestation victims, back in my single days [disclaimer: i didn't seek them out, of course -- they were drawn to me because I was "safe", or so several of them told me.] And I heard exactly the same story repeatedly. The one that handled it the best, was a Christian before her attack, and she fought til she was unconscious so she had no memory of the actual violation — but even she was talked into sex later, by one boyfriend, rather easily, as it “didn’t matter any more”. The other victims, at least those who shared their stories, had all gone through a highly promiscuous phase before getting their lives back on track.. and 2 never did, as far as I know.

    The virgin martyrs I mentioned would probably have sought religious life had they escaped with their lives. That’s baggage few mortal men could handle. For modern rape victims…I don’t know. Maybe it would be better to seek a celibate life. And I was speaking of legitimate rape.

    Well, one of the rape victims I dated, was also an exprostitute. There are so few virgins out there (whether due to rape, or personal sin, or both), that a man *just can’t afford* to hold out for that. It’s nice to get, but statistically foolish to hold out for. Even though I myself was a virgin til my wedding night…

  147. FuzzieWuzzie

    Farm Boy,
    Salmon season is still a ways off so, I’m trying not to think about it. I wouldn’t say thast bears are good fisherman but, here is one smart one. New meaning to the term fresh fish:

  148. an observer

    It’s a conundrum.

    Only if it is assumed that forgiveness removes earthly consequences.

    Repentance is not the ctrl-z action that many regard it as.

  149. Frank

    But why are Christian men so repulsive to Christian women? ..even if they’re tall, goodlooking, fit, with good jobs and a masculine demeanor… ?

    The thing I would agonize over was not meeting women but meeting women who took their Christian faith seriously. Every once in a blue moon I come across one who talks and acts as if they actually take their Christian walk seriously, so I’m thinking, wow, this is pretty rare, I’d like to get to know her more and see if things click. The inverse is almost never true though. Meeting someone like me, and I’m not saying I’m anybody special, I’m just saying that just by virtue of trying to follow Scripture and desire to be a good Christian presumably makes me a rare anomaly, so if a girl purportedly devout in the faith came across me, wouldn’t she also think I’d merit getting to know better too? Nope. Apparently devout Christian men are a dime a dozen, so I’m no big deal.

  150. anonymous

    Is there any truth to the theory that some Christian women date unsaved men in an attempt to turn them into Christians?

    That’s the rationalization they give. “I’m evangelizing him…” Missionary dating, is another world for it.

    It usually leads to the missionary position.

  151. Frank

    Crimson, good to see you around again, BTW.

    Repentance is not the ctrl-z action that many regard it as.

    Horse poopie. Everyone knows if you repent of say, the sin of gluttony, you’ll automatically become thin again.

  152. deti

    Anonymous:

    I was right there with you about how Christian girls could possibly like bad boys.

    For the benefit of others, here’s why.

    1. deti’s First Law: There is no difference in attraction triggers between Christian women and their secular sisters.

    2. Bad boys are naturally more dominant, especially when compared to typical stereotypical Christian men.

    3. Christian men are viewed as wimps, wusses, sissy boys, mama’s boys, and goody two shoes. It doesn’t matter that particular Christian men might be confident and dominant. What matters is that he’s Christian, and thus he gets branded with the stereotype.

    4. Bad boys don’t care what anyone thinks of them (or at least they come across that way). Christian men usually do very much care what others think of them.

    5. Bad boys don’t seek anyone’s favor or approval. Christian men usually do want approval (and have it) from others, which means he’s a suck up. If her parents like him, he’s also an ass-kisser.

    6. Bad boys take what they want and own their women. Christian men ask for what they want and respect their women.

    7. Bad boys care about the here and now. Christian men care most about the eternal.

    8. Bad boys are dangerous and fun. Christian men are safe and boring.

    9. Bad boys need the love of a good woman to improve them. Christian men don’t need her love or caring.

    10. Bad boys won’t judge her for wanting to cut loose and have sex; in fact he won’t judge her for much of anything so long as she gives him what he wants. Christian men might judge her for anything and everything.

    11. Bad boys understand that women are not sugar, spice and everything nice. Christian men cling to the sugar and spice fantasy like an oak leaf in a tornado.

  153. an observer

    , who cares if the circumstances of how you met and became attracted to your husband wasn’t ideal.

    She should care, especially if she has daughters.

    What does she say when one of them tingles madly for an unbeliever? Do as i say, but not as i do?

    “But it worked for you and dad, why can’t i?”

  154. anonymous

    Everyone knows if you repent of say, the sin of gluttony, you’ll automatically become thin again.

    The biology of the fat cells is such, that weight gain is a one way rachet for many people. The body considers the new “peak weight” as its set point, and desperately tries to get you back to it, no matter how diligently you diet, no matter how hard and long you exercise.

    So if you’ve ever been fat, you have to fight 20 times as hard to stay fit, as the one who never was fat.

    This is true even if the fatness wasn’t your fault , eg, due to a sports injury that prevented exercise for a long time. (Dare I call this, “legitimate fatness”?)

  155. Frank

    “But it worked for you and dad, why can’t i?”

    She can’t change the past though, and if the kids are raised right, they’re not gonna go hamsterizing through life either.

  156. deti

    anonymous:

    “That’s the rationalization they give. “I’m evangelizing him…” Missionary dating, is another world for it.

    It usually leads to the missionary position.”

    lulz

    “He’s misunderstood.”

    “He’s really a good boy. He just needs a good woman to help him realize it.”

    “He loves me. If he didn’t, he wouldn’t care enough to discipline me. My black eye proves it.”

    “He just has some anger management issues. He’s working on them.”

    “I can take care of him and make him into a good man.”

  157. Butterfly Flower

    Second, would any of these bitches desire a virgin husband? The biblical mandate applies to both sexes. If you go beyond Game, where status = number of hits, isn’t the ideal for TWO virgins to marry? And on what basis can a woman who is not have any call against a man who is?

    I’m a virgin that married a virgin; I know a few other women who have done the same.
    I think most women that wait until marriage, intend to marry a male virgin.

    I think the whole “women are repulsed by male virgins” only applies to women who didn’t wait until marriage.

  158. an observer

    Hey Frank,

    In my twenties, i was such a nice church beta that even the single mommies spurned me.

    But apparently ‘repentance’ makes good church girls just like new. So they expect hot worship leader to be overwhelmed by their awesomeness. And an instant family.

  159. crimsonviceroy

    Frank,

    It’s good to be back, brother. Had a bit of a cold since weather’s been kind of wacky in my neck of the woods. That and working 14 hour shifts for 2.5 weeks straight will leave one with very few of his mental faculties intact.

    As for your assertions regarding how most nominal and even above-average Christian (in terms of Christian sanctification) view moral and equally-parsed-in-sanctification Christian men, it’s just the fact that many of them really don’t have the Holy Spirit dwelling within them..not to say that they never will, but it will take true repentance. Because here’s the deal, the Holy Spirit dwelling inside her would IMMEDIATELY respond to the Holy Spirit dwelling within you. When you are living for Christ and you have truly given your life over to Him, the fruits of the Spirit will truly be visible for those who have an eye to see. The problem is that most of them can’t see it, because most of them aren’t serious at all about what it really means to take up their cross for Christ. If you read through OT and NT, you will see the words “humble” “meek” “tender” and “grace” more so than you will “assertive” “leader” or whatever these dearies are telling themselves when they are “moved.” Stay the course, Frank, for the race is well worth any earthly cost..including solitude. He is worth far more than any creation, and all will be restored in the end, and when that day comes, I pray to see you there smiling in victory.

    God Bless,

    CV

  160. an observer

    I think the whole “women are repulsed by male virgins” only applies to women who didn’t wait until marriage.

    Bf, you forget exactly how rare female virgins are, post teen years.

    Churches in my day were full of young women whose disdain for virginal church nice guys started early.

  161. Frank

    But apparently ‘repentance’ makes good church girls just like new.

    And magically clears up all the STDs too! Just amazing, the power of true repentance. :-)

  162. FuzzieWuzzie

    A thought just occured to me borne out of the frustration from the guys. We all know that hapless betas aren’t liked but, when you get down to it, do the sluts even deserve them?
    It seems that all that dedication and other virtues would be completely lost on the ones that spurn them.

  163. Ton

    Fuzzie, marriage is a very lonely place. If you need companionship buy a dog. Great Danes are very owner orientated.

    Marrying for companionship…. well that occurs as often as sex from what I gather. Cooking? Learn to do it yourself because most wives don’t. Do you really want to sleep next to someone who dosen’ t respect you, or even like you most days?

    What you want is natural and all, but th odds of finding it in a marriage is very low

    The last church girl I dated… well I won’t say unless SSM emails me. But she wanted…. in the church during service. Don’t date church girls anymore

    Women always say they were abused when they were younger. It’s a ploy for sympathy and I no longer believe the claims

  164. an observer

    Do the sluts deserve them?
    Probably not.

    But do they even want them?
    Definitely not, but thats realistically who they can hope for by then.

  165. an observer

    Ton,

    There are genuine instances of abuse out there. But they are vastly outnumbered by false claims, motivated by post coital regret.

    It makes the genuine claims more difficult to treat.

  166. FuzzieWuzzie

    Ton,
    The last church girl you dated wanted WHAT during the service? Please don’t tell me!
    I understand why you don’t date church girls anymore.
    The abuse thing seems to be a little overused to me too. Usually in conjunction with explaining past marriages. It does stop further inquiries.
    BTW, I keep hearing that men in the military have it far worse than civilians with marital issues.
    What the heck is going on?

  167. Farm Boy

    Women always say they were abused when they were younger

    Be a victim! Rewards galore! Responsibility recinded.

  168. an observer

    Actually, whats with pdas in church? Are they fitness tests, or genuine?

    I’ve never been one for pdas much anywhere. I’ve occasionally wonder whether its a hormonal thing, or a teasing thing, knowing the guy cant really respond in context.

  169. an observer

    Fuzzie,

    Apparently, the go for military wives is to let him complete at least one deployment. Once all that is spent, which usually doesnt take long, encourage him to do another.

    Once hes safely incountry, serve him papers, dumpsterise his possessions and enjoy the largesse whilst hes ten thousand miles away, and cant do a damn thing.

    It makes for a very tense deployment amongst his colleagues.

  170. Cail Corishev

    On the phenomenon of church-going girls dating men outside their church, even when all other things are equal, here’s what I’ve seen:

    First, her nurturing instinct may cause her to want to “save” a man. That’s especially true if she’s getting along in years and hasn’t had children yet. So there’s that.

    But also, if she can bring a man into her church, she’s the veteran and he’s the newbie, which gives her the upper hand in that aspect of the relationship. I’ve even seen this in women who profess a belief in the value of submission (the real kind). I think what happens is that she knows she’s going to have to submit to a husband, and she’s hesitant about that (again, this is more true if she’s 30 than if she’s 18, because the older one has gotten used to running her own life). If she marries a man from within her church, he’s going to know exactly what’s expected of her, and she won’t have any wiggle room; she’ll have to submit by the book right from day one if she wants to be a good wife. But if she can bring in a guy who’s clueless about marital roles, she can instruct him on what they mean, and makes sure he understands them the way she wants him to. It’s not that she wants to throw out submission, but she feels safer knowing she gets to be the one defining it, just in case a man’s definition might differ a little from hers in ways she doesn’t like.

    Even for women who don’t know what submission means, I think it’s something similar: if she brings a guy in from outside, she gets to lead him somewhat, at least in their spiritual lives. Maybe he’ll be the leader in every other way, but she’ll be in charge of this most important area. That kind of sneaky usurpation of his headship is always a temptation for her as a descendant of Eve, even if she’s a good Christian girl.

  171. Ton

    No Elspth, women need to be taught confidence and humility are not mutually exclusive

  172. crimsonviceroy

    Ton,

    Bingo, sir, bingo. Couldn’t have said it better myself.

    “No Elspth, women need to be taught confidence and humility are not mutually exclusive.” very and truly well said. Welcome, brother.

  173. Ton

    My last deployment, I took 15 married men down range. 8 wives were caught fucking around. Caught mind you. Who knows about the other 7. And yes serving papers and looting his property while gone is common. usually with the help of senior service members wife.

    Most of the wives put their hsubands through hell while he is deployed. Spend why to much money, no care packages, shit ton of shit tests, viscous verbal brawls right before the man goes down range… yea it is worse. I heard a woman telling a man she hoped he died while he was on patrol, cannot telling how many men stood the very real chance of his last word from his loving wife be fuck you, or something similar.

    As for abuse, it is not my job to treart them or prosecute the alleged predator. I simply do not believe women, most especially on self reported abuse stuff.

    Thanks for the kind words Crimson

  174. Looking Glass

    @Farm Boy:

    Unless you’re male. I don’t recommend playing victim as a guy, unless it’s on the backside of a “redemption” story. Preferably after having killed someone.

    If you’re male and actually victimized by life, go hardcore PUA-style. It’s pretty much the only way you’ll get any respect, from anyone. And let’s not get started on what Women like to do with an injured Man. I have very little argument with those that say “Women don’t do empathy”, as I’ve seen it first hand and felt it. But they’ll want to hop your bones if you’re a Wounded Alpha, which is flip-side hilarious & depressing reality.

  175. Cail Corishev

    I think the whole “women are repulsed by male virgins” only applies to women who didn’t wait until marriage.

    It would probably be more accurate to say that women (all kinds) are repulsed by the kind of men who have no choice but to be virgins.

    If a woman finds a guy tremendously attractive and senses that he could get lots of sex, I don’t think that discovering that he’s a virgin will kill his attractiveness for her. She’ll want to know why he is, to make sure it’s not because there’s something wrong with him that she’s missing. But assuming he’s really a confident, dominant guy who could get laid every weekend if he likes, she’s not going to hold his commitment to chastity against him. (Some will, but they aren’t the ones he wants.)

    But for every male virgin who’s confident and dominant and passes up regular opportunities for sex, there are thousands of male virgins and near-virgins who are sad sacks who generally couldn’t get laid in a whorehouse on customer appreciation day. Those are the guys women are repulsed by — not for their virginity, but for their effeminacy, cowardice, risk-aversion, timidity, and so on — and the unfortunate fact is that virginity in a man correlates pretty well with those repulsive attributes. The man who could get sex easily but denies himself is such a rare beast that women don’t have a way to recognize him on their radar.

  176. FuzzieWuzzie

    observer,
    “What’s with PDAs in church?”
    It’s been a while since I have been to church but, if they can’t put aside their social networks for the service….
    May have to buy a new monitor from banging my head against it.

  177. crimsonviceroy

    Fuzzie and Observer,

    If they can’t get rid of the PDA, it honestly shows you exactly where their heart and focus is upon. At least secular girls are honest to the degree that they deny Christ’s existence and his Godhood. Churchian gals use Jesus and Christ in same vernacular as you would find them talking about some earthly celebrity like Justin Bieber with the magical powers of Aladdin’s Genie..which just takes me to a new level of disgust when it comes to such disrespect and injurious insult to my Savior. Trust me, PDA’s are the least of the scriptural concerns when it comes to these sort of folks.

  178. tacomaster

    SSM, another great article. Regarding some of your comments; I totally agree with several of them. I too have wondered why women cant put on something sexy for 20 minutes and just walk around or lounge at the house. Well I know why, but I ask myself this question. It doesn’t take much effort to put something on to make your partner happy. Honestly, how difficult can that be? Either they are totally ignorant to the man’s desires, rebelling, or are turned off by the guy.

    A woman at my church is going to be having some sort of Biblical purity conversation for the high school youth. I wanted to attend just to see what views were being espoused but it’s not open for non youth people. Bummer. Do you share your blog views with fellow church members at all?

    Additionally, you made reference to me either directly or indirectly when you mentioned wives not liking semen on them. This was something I mentioned on Dalrock back in December that he reposted. Since then I’ve told my wife that that behavior is unacceptable and she has stopped doing that. The sex is still just so-so. I know that if I weren’t a Christian I would have been long gone by now but I honestly don’t see a better alternative than this. I don’t want to live in sin by being a man whore outside of marriage (my past). I truly feel like a caged zoo animal that once knew what it was like to run among the prairie and hunt small game. What a precarious situation to be in.

  179. Farm Boy

    @Looking Glass

    It goes without saying that a white male can never be a victim.

    It is so ingrained that I felt no need to mention it.

  180. sunshinemary

    Hi Tacomaster,

    you made reference to me either directly or indirectly when you mentioned wives not liking semen on them.

    Yes, I was referring to you and also to Deti, since both of you have mentioned having wives who had an issue with that (but I thought it might be impolite to name you directly in the essay without permission). But also I’ve read this on other Christian sites about wives who are just disgusted by their husbands’ semen, so it’s apparently not so very unusual.

    I know that if I weren’t a Christian I would have been long gone by now but I honestly don’t see a better alternative than this. I don’t want to live in sin by being a man whore outside of marriage (my past).

    I commend you for your obedience to God. You have taken up your cross and followed Him, and you have my utmost respect. And I pray the situation will change for the better.

  181. Farm Boy

    Women used to be practical and social. Now, they are just social. And Facebook just makes it worse.

  182. sunshinemary

    Looking Glass:

    And let’s not get started on what Women like to do with an injured Man. I have very little argument with those that say “Women don’t do empathy”

    Disagree with what you are implying here. I cared for and stood by my husband through a serious injury, as have Morticia, songtwoeleven, and Sarah’s Daughter. And we would not hesitate to do this again.

    What to do when your husband is injured or ill.

    Are wives capable of helping their husbands through negative emotions and times of vulnerability?

  183. crimsonviceroy

    Farm Boy,

    Oh it’s gotten much worse. Have you seen the news regarding how Facebook is effectively going to start hindering Freedom of Speech of most men, by basically shutting down supposed “misogynist” postings (i.e., whatever makes any woman “feeeeeel” bad)? Ironically, the lion’s share of Facebook usage is from women, so unless women really hate themselves and post “misogynist” articles and pictures, we’re seeing a whole new level of solipsism.

  184. FuzzieWuzzie

    Ton,
    I’m a history buff. If what you’re telling me is situation normal, it’s never been that bad, EVER.
    The only solution would be unpalatable to Americans. When Gaius Marius converted the Roman Legions from citizen to professional, marriage was forbidden. Too many morale and desertion problems would have occurred. No doubt the Romans had some kind of workaround as they couldn’t expect people to sign on for twenty or twenty five years and be celibate.

  185. sunshinemary

    @ CV,
    I know what you are talking about, but let me add to it. I looked into the Facebook situation because at first I was outraged that they would censor speech. However, they go out of their way to explain that they only want to censor speech that exhorts people to violence; as the mistress of this blog, I also censor such speech, as is my right to do on my own blog. Others’ freedom is not impinged by this because they have the right to go elsewhere to have their say, some place that I do not “own”. So it is with Facebook. Facebook is not a “right”; it’s a private company.

    Second, I actually clicked on the images that feminists had objected to in their complaint, and oh dear God, CV, it was truly horrible. Pictures of women being beaten and killed and forcibly raped. This wasn’t minor stuff, it truly disgusting and horrifying, and any right thinking Christian should oppose that content and applaud Facebook for censoring it.

    Will feminists take it too far and attempt to censor everything they do not like? Well, of course they will. They always do. And it will be up to Facebook to stand against that or to cave.

    Edit: I can’t really recommend looking at the photos, but if you disbelieve that in this one particular case that the feminists were actually right, you might consider looking at the photos they objected to. I think you will find them indefensible. I couldn’t even look past the first few. CV, there are truly some evil, despicable men out there who desire to hurt and even kill women. Just because the focus of this site is on the sins of women does not mean that men are innocent of wrong doing. They most assuredly are not.

    None is righteous, no, not one…

  186. Looking Glass

    @SSM:

    I said I have “very little argument”, which means I agree with the statement in the general, it doesn’t mean there aren’t specific exceptions. “Women” aren’t empathic; “a Woman” can be.

    A son in the family; a dominant Husband. Team “Her Men” she can be nurturing and empathetic for. If you’re a Man, and especially if you’re injured and in a wheel-chair, you better either be lucky to deal with generally kind people or bring the heavy Alpha because they will treat you pretty terribly.

    The flip side is Wounded Alpha is extremely appealing to them.

    Though we should probably move it away from the topic of “empathy”, mostly as that isn’t a Fruit of the Spirit.

  187. crimsonviceroy

    Looking Glass,

    Couldn’t agree with you more. I’ve read testimonials on numerous blogs, news articles, and even surveys which discuss how many women are revolted by the idea of seeing their significant other in a vulnerable state. Mind you, we’re not talking about him balling his eyes out during Titanic. The kind of examples given in these testaments were cases in which, for example, the husband or boyfriend was in mourning because a family member had just passed on, or were suffering through unemployment or clinically diagnosed depression or PTSD for our brave veterans. Some of the comments including statements like “I know it’s sad his mom passed on, but I’m glad he stopped crying and moping, cause any more of this sissyness and I would have had to leave. It’s really unattractive to see him crying.”

    Oh yeah, heaven’s forbid that he display ANY human fallibility and humanity, because the home must always be a shrine to Alpha Attractiveness. To deny a man his humanity when he is at his weakest and in real pain is possibly one of the gravest sins anyone can commit upon that person. I know exactly what you mean, LG.

  188. Elspeth

    She should care, especially if she has daughters.

    What does she say when one of them tingles madly for an unbeliever? Do as i say, but not as i do?

    “But it worked for you and dad, why can’t i?”

    Yes, we do care and yes, we are fully aware of the pitfalls inherent in our courtship. However, we haven’t sugar coated the truth about our past from our girls, and they have had a front row seat with respect to some of what we’ve had to go through managing as a family with a half-sibling.

    Not to mention, most of the women in both our families are single mothers, divorcees, etc. They know the real deal and they know that despite our happiness, we committed grave sins and are the recipients of amazing grace.

    Of course, none of that insures that my one of my girls won’t do what I did, but it’s not as if we can go back and undo any of it at this point.

  189. Elspeth

    “Moved” = turned on.

    Yes, that’s exactly what I meant. Viscerally so. The way many women claim not to be at first sight.

    I guess I’m a weirdo.

  190. sunshinemary

    LG and CV, I do not agree with you about women being unable to be faithful and true caretakers to their injured or ill men. I have seen many, many cases that go against what you say. I understand that we criticize women here, but that doesn’t mean we just throw any attempt to describe actual reality to the wind. You may have heard or seen instances that support what you are saying, but I have seen many cases that go against what you are saying.

  191. Ton

    They had hookers Fuzzie.

    My guess is woman have always been that bad, but are eassier to catch during the digital age. And more likely to flat out leave/ not care if they are caught because family court and the army will favor an unfaithful whore over a Joe.

    Facebook will not do the same when women post hateful.images of men. .

    [ssm: If they don't, men should protest it. I would. There is no reason for anyone to post images like that of another human being. It's not acceptable when men do it; it wouldn't be acceptable if women did it. That isn't the way God expects us to treat other human beings who are made in His image.]

  192. Ezio Auditore

    Yeah, NAWALT rolls away like water off of a duck’s back. Crimson, if you could provide those polls/survey’s we can start putting numbers to this story and see where “actual reality” fits in. I’m truly curious for the truth, because I could probably match, story for story, case for case, the times I have seen the vulnerability thing totally backfire on the husband as many times as there are cases of a wife “supporting” her husband.

  193. Ton

    SSM, I’ve not yet witnessed women do these things you say they are capable of. Perhaps these words don’t mean what you think they mean?

    [ssm: I'm not saying anything about what you have witnessed. Read the posts I linked to. I have cared for my husband through a serious injury. So has Sarah's Daughter. So have many women. It's far greater than NAWALT.]

  194. Looking Glass

    @SSM:

    You actually proved my point, even in your own words, but you seem to have missed it:

    “to their injured or ill men”

    Like I said, Team “Her Man”. And, yet, it still takes dwelling in the Spirit to really pull through for very long. What we consider “empathy” is not something Women are naturally given to. It takes a combination of affection, practice and Blessings of the Spirit.

    And, yes, there is a massive difference between being a badly disabled Man and a badly disabled Alpha in a Wheel chair. It is night and day different how Women will treat you.

  195. Elspeth

    I have seen women stick with men through injuries, illnesses, etc. I saw my stepmother nurse my father through a very sever injury when I was a teenager, and then through cancer a few years ago. She never seemed to fall out of love with him because of it.

    I cared for my husband through and injury that lasted a couple of months and he couldn’t work for most of that. To date, that’s the most we’ve had to deal with, but we did.

    The idea that women summarily ditch sick and injured husbands is not true. Military marriages (I believe this is what you have most witnessed Ton?) are different in lots of ways, not mention more stressful than most. It should be the wives are more loyal not less, but clearly that isn’t the case.

  196. FuzzieWuzzie

    Ton,
    “hookers” is a relatively new term for a very old concept. It dates back to Joseph Hooker’s idea about improving the morale of the Army of the Patomac. He had a short career.
    Have to wonder about Facebook. they’ll be catty but, that hateful?
    SSM,
    You complained yesterday that you’re “always wrong”. NOT
    It’s just that no one will call out anyone when they’re right. Human nature and not gender specific.
    Feminists are not so wacky this time. Maybe, they’re saving it for something big as parents live in fear of plotting children who are being too good.

  197. crimsonviceroy

    Elpseth, I’ve seen just as many cases of the exact opposite, so what’s your point? I didn’t say ALL, I said many. Must we get into statistical semantics of “many” and “all”?

  198. Elspeth

    @Crimsonviceroy:

    My point was made in response to Ton, who has said (repeatedly and on numerous threads by the way) that NO women as far as he has seen is able to do this. And I quote:

    I’ve not yet witnessed women do these things you say they are capable of.

    Of course I know that some women bail on their men when they are down and out. I never claimed otherwise. I was simply responding to the general assertion that women are incapable of caring for and maintaining respect for their sick or injured men.

  199. Looking Glass

    I do want to expand a bit on my last comment though.

    I realize I’m smashing over a set of concepts that’s ingrained in the society, to the point that they don’t necessarily mean what the words themselves mean. Which just simply complicates matters.

    There is a big difference between “can be” and “are”. The line is that “Women *are* empathetic”, which isn’t true as a nature state. By the teaching of elders and socialization, they *can be* empathetic to “their Men” (Father, Brother(s), Husband, Son(s)). “Feral” Women have less empathy than a sociopath.

    To the Men that Women willingly let inhabit their lives, Women will view themselves as empathetic. To the general “every Man”, Women will generally be amazingly heartless. When you go through a long-term disability, especially with the periods of decline & recovery I’ve gone through, you get the see the full gamut of female views of you. Life is pretty terrible, outside of your family, when you’re at the lowest rung of the “every Man” category to Women. But once I recovered a little and my dominant personality had some energy to operate… I had to veer off from escalating a solid 8, possibly 9 (it’s hard sometimes when they’re in scrubs). And she was married and really feeling me.

    Now, I got started, way back, when responding to Farm Boy about a Man playing the victim. It only works when done in a very specific context, to the point it’s pretty much just manipulation. Because Women can see themselves as that “other” Woman but simply can’t see that in “other” Men.

    It’s a situation where specific actions can be true, but they don’t hold as a general rule. Even if our society claims they do. Which just follows up a point: Women not being empathetic to “other” Men isn’t a problem… so long as no one insists its true. You can say Women get less reaction via Newton’s Third Law of Motion, but it’s not a problem so long as the society doesn’t claim its true and start building cars around the concept.

  200. Ton

    Hooker was not good at his job… not a bad subordinate commander if memory serves but not good with major commands

    I have seen the mercy and compassion of women… wait a tick, I have not. A man cannot believe what he doesn’t witness or experience Elspth

  201. crimsonviceroy

    As far as he has seen, women haven’t acted in good faith. Perhaps he has a limited scope of experience, that’s for him to remedy. Just as he over-exaggerates the numbers with the ALL statement, you do the same with statements like “some women bail on their men”. Both are rather disingenuous remarks, because it’s almost fifty-fifty, if we were to do a strict comparison and line up all the ducks. He overplays it with the “all” statement and you underplay it with the “some” statement.

  202. Ton

    I’ve been on crutches and a cane lately. Care to guess how many women have held open a door for me? At one point I was carrying a 3 year old with me. Care to guess how much female assistance came my way?

  203. Elspeth

    Are you seriously saying that “some” and “ALL” are equally disingenuous?

    “Some” could very well include your 50% figure. I think it’s a good estimate. “ALL” leaves no room for exception.

    Our statements are in no way equivalent.

  204. Ton

    If you don’t like my all statements, you should take more women to task for their behavior

  205. Sarah's Daughter

    I understand your perspective, Ton. I have witnessed the sad sad condition of marriages in the military. As a rule women do not have empathy in their nature. I’ve seen the most disgusting selfishness and heartlessness from countless “Army wife – toughest job in the Army” wives (a meme, by the way, that I completely abhor and reject as bullshit). My heart aches for these warriors whose wives lack the ability to go beyond their solipsism and consider for a moment walking out the honor they so eagerly covet (Military Spouse). There’s much more to it than waving a flag and basking in the adoration the media doles out to them.

    I do take these women to task. When I had the position of Family Readiness Group leader, it was a focus of mine. I’ve written about it and speak out as often as I can. The list of pitiful women (Army wives) who delete me from FB is evident of my taking them to task for their reprehensible treatment of their Soldiers. I’ve seen all the ugly.

    I am greatly encouraged by a few who do understand their role and are doing whatever it takes to honor, respect, submit to, and care for their Soldiers. I encourage them to mentor other wives as well. It can happen, though I have never seen it in non Christian marriages.

  206. Julian O'Dea

    Mrs “Swallow Prior”?

    Seriously, that is her name?

    The jokes write themselves.

    [ssm: And wouldn't you think she would have been eager to ditch that maiden name? Especially when marrying a man named Prior? Surely she said her new double last name to herself before she made it legal! Yet she chose to be called this of her own free will. What might we infer about Mrs. Swallow Prior from this?]

  207. FuzzieWuzzie

    When it comes to shaming women for bad behavior, men just can’t get any traction. It looks to much like complaining, no matter how valid. Ladies, it’s in your hands.
    Kind of brings us full circle to the original post. Feminists want to take shaming women completely off the table. They’re still in favor of shaming men but, that is starting to lose effect as they’re being tuned out.

  208. sunshinemary

    @ LG
    Well of course it is to “their men” that they are most attentive. Are you, as a man, out nursing and caring for random women? Of course not. In this way men and women are no different from each other. We take care of our own. We help others when we can. I cared for my badly injured husband because I love him and I am loyal to him. If I am ill, I know he will do the same for me. That is why we promised to stay with one another through sickness and health.

  209. sunshinemary

    @ Fuzzie
    Shaming women is extremely effective (provided they have actually done what they are being shamed for, of course). I highly recommend it. Did you notice on that feminist tumblr that linked to my old article, that they tagged me for “slut shaming” and “fat shaming”? I was quite proud of that! :)

  210. nightskyradio

    SSM – on that feminist tumblr that linked to my old article, that they tagged me for “slut shaming” and “fat shaming”

    They were shame shaming you?

    [ssm: LOL! But it didn't work because I felt good about my shaming efforts and resolved to do it even more.]

  211. Pingback: “No-one misses a slice from a cut loaf” | Julian O'Dea

  212. FuzzieWuzzie

    SSM,
    The last time I went anywhere near tumblr was to check out “Nice guys of OK Cupid”.
    What a shame fest! Anyway, I didn’t see my profile. I was relieved to hear that it was shut down.

    So, no< I am not aware of tumblr links. Glad for you that you're proud. Worried about attention from the wrong quarters. Essentially, their ideology is hate based and they really enjoy being mean. I wouldn't put it past them to do evil things to their own teddy bears.

  213. crimsonviceroy

    Ton’s example is excellent when it comes to something as simple as opening the door for someone who sincerely needed the help. Nurturing and caring for your own man is one thing, having the decency to do something as seemingly low emotional investment as opening the door for temporarily handicapped or permanently handicapped man doesn’t necessarily is another thing. In the lack of even that much clemency and decency demonstrates his point beautifully. Ton, sorry to hear about your predicament, brother. Any specific prayers for you?

  214. FuzzieWuzzie

    Vixens can’t have rationalization hamsters. Must be some other kind of rodent that they would never eat.

  215. nightskyradio

    Karen Swallow Prior

    Is that the sequel to “Sex And The City”?

    Funny how liberal types often seem to have ironically humorous names.

    This also begs the question, prior to what? Wouldn’t swallowing kinda, you know, be the end of the party as often as not?

    On the faculty page, she’s listed right next to Dr. Nutter.*

    *I don’t even know ‘er!

  216. tacomaster

    SSM said

    “We help others when we can. I cared for my badly injured husband because I love him and I am loyal to him. If I am ill, I know he will do the same for me. That is why we promised to stay with one another through sickness and health.”

    I know that this should be a no-brainer but this is not always the case. I want to commend you for taking care of your husband in his time of need. When I’m caring for my patients I observe how their spouse is taking care of them, how often are they visiting them, if they are interested in learning how to care for them when they are discharged to go home, willing to learn about lifestyle changes, etc. I’m always impressed by the enthusiastic wives the most because unfortunately, you can pretty much tell which ones will be willing to help out and which ones will not be sensitive, compassionate, and empathetic to their husbands’ care. I don’t think gender has anything to do with with these qualities, it has more to do with the person themselves.

    [ssm: I agree with you.]

  217. Frank

    I think empathy is a trait that depends on the person. The mistake is to presume based on gender alone that one is more likely to exhibit empathy than the other. I think this stems from assuming that because women are innately designed to be nurturers and caretakers, that they should also naturally exhibit empathy as well, so when they fail to show such traits, it’s a disappointment.

    having the decency to do something as seemingly low emotional investment as opening the door for temporarily handicapped or permanently handicapped man doesn’t necessarily is another thing

    This failing is not germane to any one gender though. It’s the world we live in.

  218. crimsonviceroy

    However, in our society, it is men who get the berating lectures on “chivalry” when it comes to not holding doors open for women, children, elderly, etc. I’m sure that the lack of such empathy transcends beyond any physical boundaries, but our society has no problem laying it upon men’s collective shoulders in bearing the responsibility and guilt of lack of empathy.

  219. The Scolds' Bridle

    When you were just a baby,
    your mother told you hon,
    always be a good girl,
    don’t ever sleep with bums,

    Well I shamed a slut in Reno
    just to watch her cry…

  220. FuzzieWuzzie

    Scolds’ Bridle,
    Cold, cruel, and very funny! Too bad Johnny Cash isn’t still here to see this.

  221. Looking Glass

    On the fun topic of names:

    So she had the Swallows-Prior Wedding? Haha.

    @SSM:

    I never said I expected anyone to really go out of their way for me, when I was badly disabled. Just the common courtesies. Or at least not be treated worse than other clients, even when you’re not even asking for anything extra. Quite of a lot of it is subtle but very noticeable.

    Or my favorite was the implication you got from talking to a number of Women that it’s your own fault for being disabled when they haven’t bothered to even listen to a word you’ve said, or especially when you tell them that their “great suggestion to help you” would likely end in my death. I never got any of this stuff from other Guys.

    But the flip side is when my dominant personality came back. Oh, boy, was I treated worlds different. Which just goes to the Spirit of the Age: Alpha is King. I diet soda is only ever empty less than 2 minutes anymore. :)

    I should probably point out I only hold doors at Church, for the elderly or those on crutches these days. At Church others will hold doors for me; the elderly deserve a little respect; and crutches are FAR worse for doors than a Wheel Chair. I spent 3 months on Crutches and 3 years with a Wheel Chair (though not full time). Doors + Crutches are horrific comparatively.

  222. Julian O'Dea

    SSM, I looked at the pictures. Some of them are really bad. “chokeslamming”? Incest is funny?

    There are some disturbed individuals out there.

  223. Ezio Auditore

    SSM,

    I don’t think that anyone here finds any of those pictures acceptable and most everyone has a revulsion towards that kind of stuff. That being said, I must say that there is more indifference towards such pictures as a result of the whole “boy who cried wolf” effect from the censorship and chastisement Feminists like to keep going on and on about. It’s like when we kept hearing stories of Hurricane Sandy over and over again until it was a thoroughly beaten dead horse…by the end, no one really gave a damn. Now, am I saying that the indifference is justified or even acceptable..DEFINITELY NOT. However, it is something that happens AS A RESULT OF over emphasis and shaming that we see constantly in mainstream media. It no longer has any shock factor..the same type of shock factor which would have had the nation up in arms over ANY rape is now becoming passive, not in terms of laws, but in terms of individual attitudes. When you cry wolf enough times, people simply stop taking it seriously.

    Now, before ANYONE rams down my throat for being a misogynist…I only went to try and explain why there might be indifference which would have led to such pictures being posted. No where did I try to justify such an attitude. On the converse though, using this message as a tool of censorship against all forms of dissent and disagreement and abusing the sympathies of the general public to further criminalize men in general is something I’m not willing to stay silent on.

    As for your assertions of people on here condoning such pictures and thoughts, I don’t think there is ANYONE on here who has ever condoned rape or physical violence against women. I could be wrong.

  224. thehap

    (I apologize if someone has already voiced this thought, but I didn’t have the time to read all 221, 222, 223… comments) I’d love to post this comment on that article at Hedonism Today, but I can’t bring myself to register for a site that carries such wretchedness. If I were to, this might be what I write:

    First, let’s agree on something: Sex outside of marriage is adultery. Before marriage, during marriage, if it isn’t to your spouse, it is adultery. Period. So, why is it that asking us not to commit adultery (I think it might have been one of those commandments) is an impossible standard (that thousands upon thousands of people have reached), but asking us not to murder or covet or lie isn’t? If adultery is ok, why not worshiping another god? Go bow down to Baal, after all, requiring us not to do so is an unreachable goal. What else should we just give in to? “Well, the pool boy is just so hot, it was impossible for me not to sleep with him in my husband’s bed every week.” “Well, my secretary obviously loves me so much, it was impossible not to bend her over the copy machine after work.” It’s ok, since “God’s purity standard is effectively impossible to meet,” we have license to do whatever we want.

    Now, I know that we are supposed to be about grace, and God’s grace covers all, and to say that we shouldn’t sin is to water down God’s grace (I kid you not, one of the comments pretty much said that). I could have sworn that living for God meant living for God, and I seem to remember Him saying something to the effect of “If you love Me, keep My commandments.” But, Ms. Michel writes stuff for CT, so certainly she knows better than I. I mean, she knows her scripture so well, she can quote it in one sentence, and in the next, tell us it isn’t so. Seems I remember some other personage in the Bible that did something similar. Somehow, she also manages to conflate following God’s precepts with idolatry. WTH is wrong with this woman?

    Ok, I am sliding off my train of thought here, probably because my brain is melting from the blasphemy and the idiocy. I’ll stop now. Perhaps, though, she should consider this: “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” Perhaps that is the actual point.

    If someone is registered over at that horrible place, you have my permission to quote my above over there.

  225. TheShadowedKnight

    SSM, I would prefer to walk away and let someone else deal with this, but someone has to do it.

    This? This is the same tactic they used to make the world the way it is today. Show something shocking and reprehensible, ask for the power to clean it up, and then use that power for their own ends. No one would possibly want to support rape, sexual abuse, physical abuse, and I believe pedophiliac rape as depicted in at least one picture. Thus, no one speaks out against their power grab, and the world drives over those good intentions on their way down the path to Hell. Make no mistake, it does not stop at clearing out the sort of posts that you are reacting to so strongly. It grows until posting a link to your blog is redacted over concerns of your support of abusive and sexist relationship models and anti-woman propaganda. You are scared, because they elicited an emotional response from you with blatant scare tactics. This from a movement that has part of its goal the removal of the male sex from hu*man*ity. You will never see a post calling for the death of all men removed, because this is not how things are done, not what this is about.

    When I see those pictures, a bit of me is sad; most of me does not care. This is the world created by the sort of thing you are now willing to support. By that sort of people. They made their bed, now they get to lie in it. Men and women deserve each other. They wanted this, now let them have it, until they grow sick to death of it all. Keep it, as a lesson for the future: this is what they wrought, now remember it.

    The Shadowed Knight

  226. FuzzieWuzzie

    SSM,
    I went back and looked at all of them. They’re all to be described with one word: sick. What would ever posess someone to cobble this stuff together and post it?
    i don’t have the energy right now to get into a full discussion about domestic violence but, I am going to presume you see that it’s not only men beating up on women. All combinations happen.
    To answer your question directly on violence: No, I don’t approve of it.
    About facebook, personally, I have an account and never go there.

  227. tacomaster

    Regarding opening doors and such, I tend to do it at church and if I’m in a “giving mood” will open doors out in public for someone. The majority of the time I will if the person is elderly, in a wheelchair, etc which is the appropriate social norm to follow. However, I seldom open doors for women these days unless I actually know them (wife, her mom, my mom). I get irritated when strangers —cough cough women– can’t even give a courteous “thank you” afterwards. If they don’t, I loudly state “YOU’RE WELCOME”. Probably not the nicest thing but hey, it’s not difficult to say thank you. Sometimes I add “princess” lol.

  228. Ezio Auditore

    TheShadowedKnight,

    Paul Elam alluded to this today in his AVFM episode regarding what will eventually end up happening. This is nothing more than an attempt to eliminate any and all dissent against feminism or whatever they feel like. Tugging at the heart strings of an already emotionally charged public is exactly how they will garner all the power they need. Still the public will be too stupid to wake up from it. I must say that our tolerance for stupidity and the pain of real oppression and tyranny are dwarfed by our willingness to succumb to pure ignorance.

  229. Connor

    Tacomaster,

    I go one further. I make sure when I open the door, if there is snoody looking chick behind me, I will purposefully keep my outreached hand on the door to ensure that the door follows me as I walk through the entrance..thereby reducing the possibility of her sliding in due to the arrested momentum of the door hinge. This way, it forces her to pause and open the door herself. It’s always a fun tease ;-)

  230. Hannah

    Several years ago I did a course at our old church. The course was for women who’d been sexually abused. Some of what was processed through the course was of value – but I was apparently the only woman they’d ever come across who refused to participate in the final session.
    The session was about healing for a wounded sexuality through the “Spirit of Virginity” teaching.

    Things happened to me by a family friend when I was 12 that destroyed my innocence and modesty. I then chose indiscriminate promiscuity (sounds like tautology I know!) for the next decade to blur the memory, and to justify the shame I already felt but was told I shouldn’t own.

    Twice in the year I left home, I woke to an intruder on top of me. One time I stopped the attack, one time I didn’t.
    From the night that I was raped, I never wanted to sleep, and the more places you go in the dark hours, the more bad decisions you make.
    That’s when I started smoking all day every day. I was angry at the world,
    I hated everyone who seemed to be happy, even more, I despised people complaining about minor glitches in their otherwise great life.
    I even felt superior in a really miserable way.
    I smoked hundreds of dollars worth of hydro-marijuana every week. I told people I worked in a cafe, but to sustain a heavy addiction – you’re involved in drug dealing, or mixed up in the sex industry.
    There aren’t a lot of female drug dealers.
    My world got smaller, darker, and more secret.
    I refused to own a phone, feeling utter contempt for consumerism.
    I was completely anti-social unless somebody smoked cones or at least a joint with me.
    The doctor told me I had a borderline personality disorder… Like that meant anything besides another puppet on Prozac.

    I met my future husband at this hellish point of my life – I had journeyed my way to the underworld, and he was born there.

    13 years later – the Sigma and the slut are happily married with four children so far. We became Christians 10 years ago and repented. Both of us radically turned our lives around, and we are no longer the broken sinners we were. But that does not erase my past. It is ugly and shameful. It is only through the grace of God that it no longer defines who I am today.

    Spirit of VIRGINITY??? Come on! (anyone an Arrested Development fan?!) You’re either a virgin or you’re not. No prayer nor magic wand can change it back.
    Life is not fair – sure, but we can’t just change the truth to fit our reality now can we…

    So with that in mind, I would say that for me and my husband, we prioritise protecting our children’s modesty. Sexuality isn’t something that magically emerges at a certain age – it is there from birth but virginity should be guarded with your life.
    There is a book called ‘Doesn’t Anyone Blush Anymore?’ by Manis Friedman. The rabbi is defending traditional Jewish rules of sexual modesty. Bob Dylan recommendeds the book to anybody married or considering marriage – I would too :)
    My husband and I will train our children to want to marry early. We hope our boys won’t marry single mothers or abused women. I am very grateful that my husband chose to commit to me despite the risk of pairing off with what I can only describe as damaged goods.
    Life is not fair, but I wouldn’t recommend someone like me to anyone. I am no snowflake!

    It is somewhat easier to rationalise or justify our actions to appease our guilty consciences, but I’d much rather the ugly truth than a beautiful lie. The process is painfully humbling.
    But if you can be brutally honest with yourself, perhaps you can warn others not to go where you have been.

    I for one applaud and speak up for Purity, Modesty and Submission in and out of season.
    I am not afraid to call out someone for justifying their sinful actions. I do not fear the finger being pointed back at me – I already acknowledge that!

    This makes me wildly popular among women :)

    I hope this story actually ties in with the OP – apologies if not!

    Btw… My husband made me delete our Facebook accounts several years ago and I am so grateful for his decision. Too much gossip, compromise of morals, and not enough burning of bridges going on there. A foolish woman’s delight no doubt.

  231. FuzzieWuzzie

    SSM,
    I think we have both been played. This has to be the first time for me that I realize that I have been emotionally manipulated by a feminist arguement. It’s one thing to hear how they operate and another to actually experience it. They make an uncontestible emotional case. It’s like they go for the gut to get to the heart. No direct appeal to the head. In the process sowing as much discord between the sexes as possible.
    Darn, they’re good at it but, the, they’ve had almost fifty years of practice.

  232. anonymous

    Hannah: I am very grateful that my husband chose to commit to me despite the risk of pairing off with what I can only describe as damaged goods. Life is not fair, but I wouldn’t recommend someone like me to anyone. I am no snowflake!

    And yet, you turned out righteous in the end — a true treasure for your husband.

    For what it’s worth, back in my single days, I once dated someone with a background not too different from yours — molestation, rape, abuse, drug addiction, a few brief forays into prostitution… I met her at Bible study, of course.

    Our relationship was doomed to fail, as she still had a lot of healing to do. And as she admitted to me years later, at the time we were dating, she was relapsing on meth (which explains a lot,in retrospect). She did say one thing to me that really struck a chord — that I was “the best relationship she ever had”. Apparently I treated her better than anyone else ever had. There’s something to be said for an old-fashioned, romantic, chivalrous, nice-guy virgin…

  233. anonymous

    Fuzzie: The last church girl you dated wanted WHAT during the service?
    Butterfly Flower: Dear Penthouse forum….

    Butterfly Flower, you should not even know that Penthouse Forum exists. Amaterasu must be displeased. There are much better places for newlyweds to learn sexual techniques.

  234. anonymous

    ssm: But Fuzzie, look at the pictures

    One reader, who did look, saw what he believes to be child rape. In that case, clicking on that link could constitute a crime. I suggest that you do NOT click that link, or instruct anyone else to do so.

    And the webmistress of that site should be warned that she is in danger of prosecution.

  235. Ton

    Hats off to you SD for doing some real work as a FRG leader.

    Thank you Crimson but no. It’s an old injury that flares up from time to time. Mostly it means I did not keep up on my rehab work. I get lazy from time to time.

    Men almost always hold the door etc when I’m on the walking sticks. When I had my niece, men went way out of their way to help. Standing in the rai to help a man and a child he did not know and would not see again out of the way. Otherwise healthy men on crutches is common here. Young troopers and vets seem to instinctively know what the deal is and help out with the small common decency.

    I am indifferent to the photos as the overwhelming majority of women are indifferent to downright supportive of all the anti male media.

    I readily admit to having a low opinion of women, but they have gone out of their way to earn it. They put in overtime most weeks

  236. dhurka

    After looking at those pictures I think police should be given the power to remove potentially violent men from their houses to protect their wives. One battered woman is too many. If a woman says she feels afraid then steps should be taken to ensure her partner stays away from her. We should also make sure she is not disadvantaged financially otherwise she might be to afraid to call the police. If you disagree, just look at the horribly battered women in those photos…/ (not quite sarcasm)

    In a sick way you have to admire the feminists. They they know how to use human nature so well. After reading hundreds of manosphere pages and plenty of the bible our dear host only needs one well crafted feminist page to support putting them in charge of what is posted on facebook. No disrespect SSM I understand completely. That is why I find it so damn depressing.

    I would also like to point out that facebook terms of service currently bans: Violence and threats, bullying and harassment, hate speech, graphic content and nudity and pornography among other things. Surely they can find a way to remove all those sick images without putting the feminists in charge. Why aren’t they just removed? Whats the problem? Domestic violence could have been handled with existing assault laws. It pretty much was always a crime to punch someone in the face. Just like these photos could be removed and probably were, instantly when they were reported. The feminists just want to teach the moderators all the secret ways that men hate women. You know what I mean, like the times when men speak about things. Misogynists.

  237. TheShadowedKnight

    It was not actual child rape, just what appeared to be a little girl in a dress on the floor and a male foot next to her. No nudity, but the suggestion was there, to be inferred. Clearly the product of a disturbed mind, and as it appears to be regarding a child I have no objections to its removal and further steps taken to deal with the like. The rest… Well, it is what it is. Distasteful and unpleasant, but not illegal.

    The Shadowed Knight

  238. alcestiseshtemoa

    I’ll be honest. I don’t approve of those pictures either but it’s kind of like the false rape victim vs. legitimate rape (true rape) victim stuff.

    There’s so many false ones out there, that when the true one appears, the situation becomes even worse, because while I have respect and empathy for a true rape victim, my anger and frustration at the propaganda of false rape ones increases, and while I would like for those pictures to be removed, if I do support such things, what’s stopping them from stepping back into their lies and general evil?

    There’s the true cases. And then there’s HR Donglegate Adria Richards or Elevator Gate Rebecca Watson.

    What’s stopping them from using something good, especially if it’s rare, to further even more evil?

    It’s kind of like a stopped clock. Even a stopped clock is true twice a day, but any other time, it isn’t. An exception isn’t a generality and doesn’t make the rule.

    To me it’s the boy who cried wolf. Feminists have cried wolf so many times, that I’m like the villagers who got up and left. I’m indifferent by now.

    It’s kind of hilarious that feminists have normalized and legalized actual and legitimate violence and abuse against women through their lies and evil. Calling good men creepy, frivolous harassment suits and false rape claims, erecting a police state (all to feel ‘secure’) and ruining families. They made their beds, they will sleep on it.

  239. alcestiseshtemoa

    So a person, unfortunately, ends up in a situation where it’s better to not support those stuff, or at least be indifferent and not speak of it. Sometimes the corruption is so strong, that it isn’t worth it to defend the few good ones left.

  240. Sam

    I don’t think anyone has noted this yet, but if Swallow Prior is a Christian writer trying to make a point about Christian morality, why is she quotingThomas Hardy, an avowed atheist who wrote a poem called “God’s Funeral,” as an authority?

  241. Anon

    Hey there SSM. If you get a chance, could you email me? Have an idea for a post. Thanks.

  242. Some Guy

    I admit, I am a fan of sunshine mary. There is so much to like about her… and her perspective is on the whole, a breath of fresh air. I appreciate what she’s doing.

    But these last two threads… she goes off on the absurd topic of Christian men withholding sex as punishment (?!) and now she is all about teh Facebook pr0ns… to the point of, “I won’t be your friend anymore if you don’t denounce this RIGHT NOW.”

    Can you say “SQUIRREL!!” ???

    Given what we know she knows… given how well she articulates so many basic truths… how can this be? I honestly can’t remember what we were talking about before this.

    Is this a demonstration of the power of the feminine imperative? The effectiveness of feminist talking points in derailing any thread? Is this what happens when when are included in any conversation on the subjects that we tend to discuss here? Or is this evidence of the general inferiority of the female intellect when it comes to anything related to spiritual truth? Is this why women are excluded from church leadership… and why they are to subordinate themselves to their husbands…?

  243. Deep Strength

    @ Tacomaster:

    Additionally, you made reference to me either directly or indirectly when you mentioned wives not liking semen on them. This was something I mentioned on Dalrock back in December that he reposted. Since then I’ve told my wife that that behavior is unacceptable and she has stopped doing that. The sex is still just so-so. I know that if I weren’t a Christian I would have been long gone by now but I honestly don’t see a better alternative than this. I don’t want to live in sin by being a man whore outside of marriage (my past). I truly feel like a caged zoo animal that once knew what it was like to run among the prairie and hunt small game. What a precarious situation to be in.

    It’s a bit late but I would highly suggest Married Man Sex Life by Athol Kay.

    Athol’s an atheist but his material is based on relationship game and doesn’t require you to compromise being a Christian. Just to make yourself more attractive and start leading your wife.

  244. crimsonviceroy

    Tacomaster,

    Ignore the troll. BDSM or “game” isn’t the answer. You can’t “Jedi mind trick” into someone coming to terms with their responsibility in a marriage. That’s between them and God. By the sounds of it, you’re doing your part, and that’s all God asks of you. Whatever failings she has, is something she has to work out with God. Cock-teases, slaps on the butt, and a few muscles aren’t going to get to the root of the matter, cause the rebellion monster will rear its ugly head again.

  245. Novaseeker

    The Facebook thing is to be expected. Of course, the kinds of things depicted in those images is vile and should be banned, but the problem is that they will almost certainly be used as a stalking horse for silencing other forms of speech — including a blog like this one — that some feminist watchdog group wants to silence. It’s something that is inevitable really.

    I don’t use Facebook much any more — I prefer Google Plus. But I think this is just the beginning of a much larger trend towards silencing anti liberal dissent on the internet.

    [ssm: Yes, I understand. I suppose I had a very emotional reaction to those pictures, especially the ones of women who had been murdered and the children being abused (I didn't really care about the ones that made funny comments about Rhianna's post-beating face or the similar ones). No doubt that was why such images were chosen. And feminists are all about censorship of speech they simply don't like, as I am well aware. There is a balance to be achieved between not allowing people to have a platform to exhort others to commit violence versus silencing ideas. It's not always an easy, straightforward balance, either.]

  246. Julian O'Dea

    Yes, some of them are just male humour. Even my wife has told me some of those jokes. “What do you say to a woman with two black eyes? Nothing, you already told her twice.”

    I would say that only a few of those images were really bad. And as Novaseeker said, it will inevitably end, if feminists win this free speech debate, in men being banned from posting, say, a picture of a pretty girl in a bikini on facebook.

    [ssm: I don't want to see risque or male humor banned. The funny pictures didn't bother me. The pictures that showed real violence in action were the bad ones - for example, the one of the man holding the woman's head underwater in the toilet bowl. And I certainly don't want to see feminist foxes put in charge of the internet hen-house; we all know how that will go.]

  247. Deep Strength

    @ crimsonviceroy

    Ignore the troll. BDSM or “game” isn’t the answer. You can’t “Jedi mind trick” into someone coming to terms with their responsibility in a marriage. That’s between them and God. By the sounds of it, you’re doing your part, and that’s all God asks of you. Whatever failings she has, is something she has to work out with God. Cock-teases, slaps on the butt, and a few muscles aren’t going to get to the root of the matter, cause the rebellion monster will rear its ugly head again.

    BDSM? Jedi mind tricking?,… hahahaha. I don’t think you understand “game” at all.

    Basically, he should “trust God” and let his marriage implode?

    What would you say to Keoni, Deti, and other members here who have SAVED their marriage because of game?

    If a man has something in his power than is not ungodly to save his marriage and help to reinstitute his God mandated leadership he should take it.

    Of course, as you say the wifely submission is on her. That I agree with.

    One of the main problems in our society is that men have not been taught how to be MEN. Being confident, masculine, MAN is teachable.

    That’s one of the underlying fundamental concepts of what “game” is. To teach a man how to be a man, and how to recognize and interpret a woman’s behavior.

    I will refer to Cane Caldo’s post:

    http://canecaldo.wordpress.com/2013/05/27/game-the-spice-of-strife-i/

    Why do I say good Game is good? Well…it depends what we mean by Game. There are, generally speaking, three different definitions of Game.

    ~ knowledge of the facts of human existence, circumstances and behavior
    * an understanding of hypergamy, koreogamy, socio-sexual cues, and other features of human nature
    * an understanding of current trends in the Marriage MarketPlace (MMP) and Sexual MarketPlace (SMP), i.e., knowledge of the behavior to which people are actually engaging
    * the ability to read a person’s behavior; to interpret verbal and non-verbal cues; particularly of a sexual nature

    ~ manipulation of self or circumstances to affect change in another’s perception or behavior
    * ex.: flirting, dress, negs, agree and amplify, etc.[1]
    * is strictly conscious behavior
    * this is the most-often denied definition, but is ubiquitously used (e.g., “I did X, and she couldn’t help herself!”)

    ~ an established pattern of behavior
    * strictly speaking this is conscious behavior, but it’s practiced unto relative thoughtlessness. It’s manipulation as muscle memory or rote response; like shifting gears, or tying shoelaces, or replying to a question with “Yes sir and no ma’am”.
    * The way a person lives; the totality of their behavior. In this sense it’s like a personal culture. We say a person has “No Game” in the same way we say a people have “No culture”. What we really mean is either we don’t like the culture, or we believe the culture is inferior. Like it or not: McDonald’s and blue jeans are American culture.

    Read the post for the rest of the explanations.

  248. Farm Boy

    Hard cases make bad law.

    That is why liberals always lead with the most awful cases, the ones that elicit sob stories.

  249. Sarah's Daughter

    Young troopers and vets seem to instinctively know what the deal is and help out with the small common decency.

    This is so very true. When older Veterans see my husband walking with his cane, they call him “brother” and are very helpful. I’ve come to understand why so many retired Veterans choose to live around military installations. We’ll be doing the same. Being in a military community helps those recovering because of the empathy of those around him. Empathy comes natural to men – women, on the other hand do need to cultivate it along with coming to understand their nature (girl game). It can be done though. When a woman asks me for advice about marriage, I usually begin with solipsism. I’ve seen women go through “Ah ha” moments when I’ve walked them through what solipsism is, how it is integral part of their thought processes, why it exists, and how to control it. It is in controlling solipsism that a wife can finally see from her husband’s perspective instead of just her own. This opens the door to empathy.

  250. Sarah's Daughter

    Yes, Farm Boy, it’s her family with a strong patriarch at the helm. And when he dies, a Titus 2 woman who does not stray from his principles.

    As long as this unit stays intact women have sisterhood with the other women passing on traditions, wisdom, and Truth – much much more effective than any Bible study, women’s group or friend circle.

    How well the enemy knows this. – Destroy the family and women become out of control, irrational children.

  251. ukfred

    I wonder if people have been too harsh about the lady’s name. In Scotland, there is the surname Smellie, and a girl a year ahead of me in school had this surname. Her problem was her silly parents who called her “Maida”. If the name gets too bad, then you can change it. I can remember a lecturer when I was at University whose name was Alcock who changed his name to Alcott because his daughters started to get more than gently teased about their name.

    On the subject of domestic violence, let’s remember that it is gender-symmetrical. There is a man in the same fellowship as me who woke one morning about 3:00 a.m. to find his wife with a carving knife against his throat. She also pushed him downstairs and locked him in the cellar. She stamped on his feet with her sharp heeled shoes. She stole from him. The police ignored his reported assaults until he ended up in casualty getting sutures when he had been ‘glassed’ by his wife and the hospital reported a non-accidental injury. When the police took the details of that incident, the previous incidents that he had reported were not on their system. The pictures remind me of a saying this side of the Pond, which I don’t know if it is used on the other side, “Hard cases make bad law”. Folks do not take the ‘slippery slope argument seriously until it is too late. Nobody wants to see women being abused or assaulted. And we need to be aware that men generally have greater strength than women but the right (or wrong) weapon is more than an equaliser.

    But who will draw the line at what is acceptable and what is not. I remember the university residences had a rule that visitors were allowed at reasonable times. When the students tried to get reasonable defined, the manager of residence put it like this, “If you have someone in with you writing up a lab that has gone wrong, you need to pull an all-nighter, and you are not disturbing anyone else that is reasonable. If the guy next door has a final the following day and you and your mates are making too much noise for him to study at 8:00 pm, then that is unreasonable. It’s all about the context.”

  252. Ton

    SD, those things, those intangibles is what kept me in, dictates where I live, and is the bigger part of I became a PMC after retirement.

    I plan to die on the job. I hate this country, but I love the life and the men I work with. There is nothing better in this life.

    Girls head in the toilet bowl… SSM, there is no shortage of chicks who get off on stuff like that. It is impossible to over estimate the sexual depravity of large numbers of women. My guess is it was consensual and she thrived off it

  253. thehap

    ukfred said:
    But who will draw the line at what is acceptable and what is not. I remember the university residences had a rule that visitors were allowed at reasonable times. When the students tried to get reasonable defined, the manager of residence put it like this, “If you have someone in with you writing up a lab that has gone wrong, you need to pull an all-nighter, and you are not disturbing anyone else that is reasonable. If the guy next door has a final the following day and you and your mates are making too much noise for him to study at 8:00 pm, then that is unreasonable. It’s all about the context.”

    The problem with these statements is, unfortunately, that common sense has flown right out the window in our culture, and ‘reasonable’ no longer means anything. You will always end up with some whiner crying about ‘fairness’ or some crap, and then the rules will have to be dialed in to minutia with no exceptions. Is it a wonder that all these limpwristed crybabies drive us straight towards statism?

  254. sunshinemary

    I understand the objections everyone is raising to the feminist/facebook/hate speech thing. Upon further reflection, I think I have had a very emotional reaction to those pictures of children being abused and women being murdered (which is natural) and thus been manipulated. I do support Facebook in censoring such images; I don’t support feminists having any say in the matter.

  255. Athor Pel

    Anybody here read any books by Shannon Ethridge?
    I’ve got a friend that was given one of her books. I’m wondering how much Mrs. Ethridge’s books adhere to the Bible.

  256. Frank

    Athor, If she’s anything like her husband John Eldredge (author of Wild at Heart) I’m not confident that her books are going to be anything worth a poop’s poo.

  257. Frank

    BDSM? Jedi mind tricking?,… hahahaha. I don’t think you understand “game” at all.

    Heh. I checked the Amazon page and one of the favorable reviews written by a woman was very telling.

    CV, the Bible speaks of sporting your wife, which is essentially “game.” So basically, game offers the opportunity to relearn what has been a natural element of male-female relationships for ohhhhh… thousands of years, that is, until our feminist culture has taken it upon itself to completely beat it out of us through acculturation. Game simply provides a more structured way to reclaim our masculinity.

    For example: for too long I presumed being sappy and emotionally sensitive is what attracts women, so I played up the sappiness to absurd heights based on that premise, while downplaying my more more assertive-dominant side, because through acculturation, being dominant and assertive meant I was making decisions for a girl and therefore disrespecting her, so logically I think, whatever she likes to do I’ll roll with, and that’s what will help me get the girl, amirite? Yeah, not quite.

    The premise behind game tells me the sappiness turns off women (when they’re not already attracted to you), and while I DO like being a sap, I no longer embellish it to a ridiculous extent, and at the same time I no longer repress the urge to assert myself with a girl and play a more dominant role either. Just the active decision to stop repressing your masculine urges based on what a feminist driven culture tells us might be all the game you need. Beyond that, what I see in game are structural examples and ideas on how to sport (to use the biblical term) your wife/female interest in a way that feels natural and will elicit more attraction from her. It’s not jedi mind tricking, that actually came from the feminist culture telling us men to get in touch with our “feelings.” You’re making the right accusation here, but at the wrong people. It’s the feminists who have psychologically manipulated us.

  258. Anonymous Reader

    SSM quotes Alan Roebuck
    if most women are not virgins then many men will have no choice but to marry non-virgins. We cannot just call off marriage until things have been fixed.

    How is this different in any significant way from You men! Man up and marry those sluts! ?
    Someone esplain to poor, stupid, me…

  259. crimsonviceroy

    Frank,

    Well if you put it that way, I can concede to a point what you’re saying. We should never allow anyone to completely walk all over us, or to even define who we are. Doing outdoors stuff, canoeing, shooting a rifle are things that I naturally don’t have an inclination for. I like writing, reading, running, video games, and other activities that don’t naturally demonstrate “leadership” in a traditional sense. Some gamers would say that those are not “masculine enough” traits and hobbies and that I need to get in touch with the “inner masculine”…do you see how that is starting to get into a dangerous slope into a new form of shaming for men? These hobbies and traits are not something the feminists drilled into me..matter of fact, feminists hate guys who are into these types of things, because we are called losers for it. I’m trying to prevent back-sloping into a new form of shaming for men. Teaching men to stand up for themselves is very much biblical..ESPECIALLY if it is on the grounds of correcting someone out of love from continuing in their sinful rebellion..eg, wifely rebellion. Shaming them for liking the hobbies they do and advising them to take up hobbies that they have no real interest in, and are of very little practical personal value is basically trying to get someone to conform to your world view. If there is to be a renewal of any Christian man, it has to be a renewing of his mind from the Holy Spirit, not from earthly mandates of “stop playing video games and go out and hunt something.”

    But the context from which the suggestion was made was based on a Blblically married man seeking marriage advice from a VERY UN-Biblical atheist source…that would be like someone talking about sin and transgression while denying the existence of God. God is the author of marriage, at least that’s what my “Bible thumping mind” believes. Therefore, when someone advises a man to rebuke his wife of her rebellion against him, diplomatically of course, then I completely agree because it is in the context of what the Bible discusses. However, when you read some of the stuff that Kay writes in that blog, a lot of it is based on observed behavior..but the entire crux is based upon adapting to your wife’s behavior, which for those who are suffering through the dark times in their marriages means that she is conforming to the world, instead of letting herself be renewed by the Holy Spirit. I can’t emphasize the impact of God in the marriage, because it seems like there are many (NOT ALL) who would make attraction and alpha-ness into an idol, instead of focusing on God first. Let’s be honest, outside of yourself, SSM, myself, and a few others, God is hardly ever mentioned in the context of marriage around these parts. Yeah I can understand the whole “being lazy and relying on God to fix all your problems” meme, but trusting in earthly resources to fix your problems is just as bad, as it has the TENDENCY (not an absolute given) to demonstrate a lack of faith in God’s grace and providence.

    I can definitely see where you’re coming from. It’s more so just standing up for yourself, which is something I definitely can agree with. The whole “playing games” is just plain childish. Either she can grow up or hit the road. There’s enough stuff on a guy’s mind just trying to provide for his family (ESPECIALLY in this economy..for those woefully unaware of the real state of unemployment in the US) and stand right with God in dealing with his own sin’s to be having to babysit what is supposed to be a grown adult.

  260. crimsonviceroy

    Ton, simple but very Truthful. Man, I ought to have you edit my stuff for brevity.

  261. Elspeth

    @ Crimson Viceroy:

    If you will, please kindly allow me to offer the argument of doing “more manly” things from an alternate angle. I’ll use myself as an example if you can tolerate that.

    I used to hate, hate, hate it when my husband would insist on teaching to hammer a nail correctly, measure wood twice and cut it once, etc. I used to work out a lot but had trouble even helping him move the sofa. He insisted that I start using heavier weights. His rationale:

    “It’s great that you look good and I like it, but it’s not going to help me move this couch. It won’t help me get the house boarded when a hurricane is coming, or with any number of things that you could do if you were as strong as you could be.”

    When men encourage you to take up more “manly” hobbies, rather than assume they are trying to shame you into manning up to be more attractive to women, but rather to improve yourself and your own capabilities, even if you never decide to marry and have a family.

    I have a husband who likes video games an awful lot too, but he is adept at a lot of the more “manly” things too. If nothing else, we figure when the fiat money is good for nothing but fire kindling, we’ll be able to figure out some way to survive and work with our hands to provide for our family.

  262. anonymous

    If there is to be a renewal of any Christian man, it has to be a renewing of his mind from the Holy Spirit, not from earthly mandates of “stop playing video games and go out and hunt something.”

    The economy may eventually mandate hunting…

    if most women are not virgins then many men will have no choice but to marry non-virgins. We cannot just call off marriage until things have been fixed.

    How is this different in any significant way from You men! Man up and marry those sluts! ?
    Someone esplain to poor, stupid, me…

    Simple. Those who say, “Man up and marry those sluts”, generally assume, quite wrongly, that the unwillingness to marry, is on the men. Because the poor fornicatrixes are “repentant” (to be fair, sometimes that’s actually true). — or worse, it somehow “wasn’t their fault” that they were seduced and sexually “exploited” by wicked handsome Alphas (though the girls enjoyed every moment of it) — and either way, these girls now “DESERVE” to marry a good man with a good job. And those evl naughty judgemental men are holding out for virgins, and judging women for their sexual pasts, and that is why marriages aren’t happening… blah, blah, blah, boo hooo…. .

    Of course the above is all a load of crap. Those who say, “men, even virgin men, have no choice but to marry nonvirgin women”, correctly realize that men, generally, WANT and (almost) NEED to marry. And that it is horrificially difficult to do so nowadays — even in “church” where it should be fairly easy. For men who are moral enough to confine to sex til marriage (Heb 13:4), and yet manly enough not to be able to tolerate permanent celibacy (Matt 19:10-12), one must marry SOMEBODY. And since the quality of women has plummeted in the last few decades — even in “church” where it shouldn’t have — men have no choice but to lower their standards drastically, not only regarding sexual pasts but a lot of other things as well.

    Male virgins out number female virgins. And virgin groom/ nonvirgin bride matchups, are more common than the reverse. ‘Nuff ced,

  263. crimsonviceroy

    So now we’ve gone from manliness idolatry to Apocalypse survival boot camp? So what are your thoughts for those who don’t have their own homes, such as the majority of young single Christian men, who may be in the city and not have access to all these wonderful “manly” survival boot camp activities? I suppose we should all take a lovely jaunt into the woods kill some bears, eat the right berries, and find a shrub to take a dump in by following the North star..oh yes, very manly. Seems like Grizzly Adams theology to me. Besides, if we are getting ready for the eventual collapse, shouldn’t it PRIMARILY be readiness for His Second Coming…for our hearts need to be prepared and that all things are temporary, even our own survival in light to the absolution of eternity and where we stand in Christ?

    My improvement comes from God’s Word, not from Grizzly’s Whispers. Now we are starting to conflate techniques of attraction and re-assorting them into a sort of Machiavellian altruistic agenda of improvement for post-apocalyptic survival as a byproduct of learning attractiveness techniques. So I suppose such techniques will also allow me to change water to wine and a hunk of crap into fresh strawberries and cream. The ends don’t justify the means. If you’re going to instruct men on basic knowledge on say, changing oil in a car, or learning about survival techniques, then do so on the merit of self-preservation as that is what they are meant for. He will come as a thief in the night…there’s really no physical preparation for such a thing..only preparation of the heart. Interesting how my father doesn’t know too much of those “manly things” but has managed to put a roof over our heads and not a peep of sedition or treason from either myself, my brother or my mother. Heck, he doesn’t even change his own oil…(Alpha technical foul…lose 3 points, Betatude Mana up +5 points).

  264. Elspeth

    Never mind, CV. I can see now that my attempt at offering another way of looking at things fell flat.

    The last part of my comment (the “survival boot camp” part) was an attempt at levity, which was also clearly a major fail. Comedy is not my string suit.

    I was simply offering the perspective that there are other reasons, besides manning up for some chick, to stretch yourself beyond your comfort zone mentally and physically.

    That is all.

  265. crimsonviceroy

    Then those reasons need to be explicitly defined and latitude has to be given to its proper time when stretching yourself beyond the comfort zone is needed. It’s one thing to say that you are stretching past your comfort zone, it’s another to burn yourself out completely doing a whole bunch of things that have no value to your life as you have it defined…especially if it doesn’t really work towards improving your walk with God. Often times a woman can’t really understand just how much a man has gone through to improve himself and demonstrate such abilities to adapt and survive, based on a short window of time of 5 min to get her “juices flowing”. THAT requires stretching one outside of her comfort zone of “instant ready-to-eat microwavable Alphaness” in order to seek qualities of good husband stock..you know the stuff like Fruits of the Spirit..oh wait, those are only secondary to Alpha-tude.

    Ton, what you said regarding your dedication to your brothers is the reason why it sickens me when I see families having huge BBQ’s and kegger’s on Memorial Day..especially when no one in the family is remotely involved with the armed forces. If it is to be a holiday, then let there be an air of solemn and sober prayer and grieving for those who have chosen to or already have sacrificed their lives. Flying the flag at full-staff on Memorial Day is a disgrace to the memory of those who have fallen in battle. You have my utmost respect and fraternal love, sir.

  266. Deep Strength

    CV,

    I don’t understand where you’re getting stuck up on these other things.

    Yes, the Bible is primary guidebook that corrects, guides, and teaches us how to live. No one is disputing that.

    However, it does not provide examples for every situation. It does not show us how to react to a fitness test from women.

    “Game” aka “the masculine frame” is something that was previously taught and instilled by fathers to son as they were growing up. Obviously, the Bible is a huge part of that. The wisdom from elders is now gone, replaced by wisdom of “feminism.”

    Take for example a doctor.

    A doctor can obviously live his/her life as a Christian with the Bible as a primary guidebook, but the tools they need for their trade (human interaction, advanced medical science) are not learned through the Bible. Science and other secular sources have the ability to teach us a lot about relationships, medicine, humanity, history, and other quality pursuits that can be useful in our daily lives.

    The Internet is not talked about in Scripture, but we have come to be able to use it to read the Bible, and discuss Christianity here on the web.

    My main point is that it’s not necessarily wrong or sinful to learn about relationships from secular sources. In fact, often cases they tell us what NOT to do pretty well.

    But it’s a false dilemma to say that other such things aren’t useful at all and the Bible is all you need.

    Game has been able to save many marriages. Married man sex life has been able to save many marriages. I want to do everything that I can to be able to help a man save his marriage. And yes, that does include reading the Bible, prayer, etc. but it does not include not doing anything about it and waiting on submission from the wife that may never happen.

  267. crimsonviceroy

    So you are saying that just because I don’t fully endorse Athol, that I am condoning apathy and lethargic indifference and inaction when it comes to a marriage?

  268. crimsonviceroy

    By the way, where are your statistics when it comes to the number of marriages “saved”? If we’re going to start waxing scientific, let’s talk numbers. I don’t see the 40% divorce stat in the church changing thanks to Athol’s Miracle Wonder Potion.

  269. Deep Strength

    @CV

    So you are saying that just because I don’t fully endorse Athol, that I am condoning apathy and lethargic indifference and inaction when it comes to a marriage?

    No, you said:

    Ignore the troll. BDSM or “game” isn’t the answer. You can’t “Jedi mind trick” into someone coming to terms with their responsibility in a marriage. That’s between them and God. By the sounds of it, you’re doing your part, and that’s all God asks of you. Whatever failings she has, is something she has to work out with God. Cock-teases, slaps on the butt, and a few muscles aren’t going to get to the root of the matter, cause the rebellion monster will rear its ugly head again.

    Which is a blatant mischaracterization of what game is, and misrepresents the simple fact that game can help improve marriages.

    By the way, where are your statistics when it comes to the number of marriages “saved”? If we’re going to start waxing scientific, let’s talk numbers. I don’t see the 40% divorce stat in the church changing thanks to Athol’s Miracle Wonder Potion.

    The fact that game has saved multiple marriages for those in the manosphere is telling.

    We all have free will though, so you can choose what you want to believe or not.

  270. nightskyradio

    CV – when you read some of the stuff that Kay writes in that blog, a lot of it is based on observed behavior..but the entire crux is based upon adapting to your wife’s behavior

    One must adapt to survive in a hostile environment before one can control it.

  271. crimsonviceroy

    “The fact that game has saved multiple marriages for those in the manosphere is telling” – basing your assessment on the success of something strictly based on a handful of anecdotal accounts doesn’t testify to anything at all. So now we are going from saving many marriages, to help improve marriages..so which is it? You seem to be going back and forth between implying it being a wonder pill to a helpful technique…so which is it? The story seems to always change just a bit, doesn’t it?

  272. Chris@QPC

    Of course, I’m late to comment again and this has gone into different discussions. But, about the original posting by SSM:

    This is ridiculous. Okay, people sin. I understand that. Christians sin. I understand that. But, there seems to be some kind of problem when Christians justify their sin and totally disregard what God says in His Word about it or try to water it down by some psychological mumbo-jumbo crap. In a way, Mrs. Prior is right. A woman’s virtue is not by an intact hymen. It’s much deeper than that. But, thinking that doesn’t a woman the right to not care about sinning against a holy and just God.

    Sorry, I just don’t really know what to say. It blows my mind that, not only do “Christians” think nothing of sin against God, but also publish articles spewing it to others in a mainstream Christian magazine/website.

    It drives me crazy that, even when abstinence outside of marriage is preached, it’s on the basis of disease, pregnancy, or “giving your heart away too early”. What about what GOD says about it? Doesn’t anyone care? Doesn’t anyone know what He says since EVERYONE will answer to HIM ALONE?????

    Ephesians 5:3-6
    “But FORNICATION and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for BECAUSE OF THESE THINGS the WRATH OF GOD comes upon the sons of disobedience.

    Hebrews 13:4
    Marriage is honorable among all, and the bed undefiled; but FORNICATORS AND ADULTERERS GOD WILL JUDGE.

    Hebrews 10:31
    It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

    That should be enough to keep someone pure, at least if they are Christian and the Spirit of God abides in them. Some WILL slip. It’s inevitable. But there is a BIG difference between slipping and jumping in head first, justifying it, and teaching others that it’s okay.

    This rant is officially over. Thank you for bearing with it. It just ticks me off a tiny, tiny bit.

    [ssm: Thanks for your rant, Chris! I thought it was a good comment.]

  273. Deep Strength

    @ CV

    “The fact that game has saved multiple marriages for those in the manosphere is telling” – basing your assessment on the success of something strictly based on a handful of anecdotal accounts doesn’t testify to anything at all. So now we are going from saving many marriages, to help improve marriages..so which is it? You seem to be going back and forth between implying it being a wonder pill to a helpful technique…so which is it? The story seems to always change just a bit, doesn’t it?

    Yep, you’re right there’s only anecdotes.

    I’ll trust those of Deti, Keoni, etc. and the track record they have set here in the manosphere over your trumpeting though.

    As I said, we can choose what we want to believe. If you want to believe that game is useless then that’s up to you.

  274. Sarah's Daughter

    @Elspeth
    “It’s great that you look good and I like it, but it’s not going to help me move this couch. It won’t help me get the house boarded when a hurricane is coming, or with any number of things that you could do if you were as strong as you could be.”

    This is so important, off topic a bit, but so huge. My husband said to me years ago “fat women walk on treadmills, hot women lift weights.” I’ve been lifting for almost a year now. Of course my goal was to lose weight and to be that hot woman he mentioned. There have been so many benefits to being strong now that he is injured. I do have a large frame (5’8″ Scandinavian) so I’ve been able to go well beyond my petite workout partners at the gym. I dead lift 200 pounds now and can clean and jerk 103. I can do the heavy lifting now that his back just doesn’t allow him to do. It has gone well beyond having great looking muscle cuts, it has become a necessity in order to be his help meet.

  275. crimsonviceroy

    Chris, that is one of the best comments on here. Bonus kudos for the Scriptural verses too. I agree with SSM, don’t stop there. Very much needed rant.

  276. tacomaster

    @Sarah’s Daughter–thanks for helping out with veterans. You are doing God’s work. Regarding your comment, “Empathy comes natural to men – women, on the other hand do need to cultivate it along with coming to understand their nature (girl game)”. I think this is pretty accurate. I try to be understanding of my patients and what they are going through. I attempt to think of how they are being challenged whether it be emotionally, physically, or spiritually and then I try to plan accordingly. I’ve considered going back in (I’m an Army veteran) as an Army Nurse but with all the cuts in the budget… I’ll see what happens.

    Oh, and your husband is right about women who lift weights. It’s hot and too many are afraid they’ll bulk up. I wish that myth would disappear.

    @Crimsonviceroy, Frank, and Deep Strength–
    Thank you all for the advice and replies. I wrote in detail about my situation on Dalrock’s blog earlier this year in the comments section and then he did a post about it. I’m not really in the mood to rehash everything. I agree somewhat with MMSL but only to an extent because he’s not Christian. He does have some valid points though.

  277. theshatteredimage

    Please remember to point out that if one does meet God’s purity standard, if one saves virginity for marriage, that wedding night becomes THE MOST BEAUTIFUL EXPERIENCE YOU WILL EVER HAVE IN THIS LIFE. Everyone is always talking about “avoid bad stuff like stds and pregnancy.” What about the good stuff you get from waiting??

  278. Julian O'Dea

    theshatteredimage

    Not in my experience with my bride. Agonising for her and unpleasant for both of you..

    It is the symbolism which is powerful. If you have deflowered your wife, it removes a thousand little potential barbs from her quiver as a wife.

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  280. Chris@QPC

    @theshatteredimage

    That would be letting people on with a false assumption. In other words, there is no guarantee of that happening on their wedding night. That night may be the most beautiful or the most beautiful experience might come later. It might come years later after some experience or it may not come at all. It may have felt that way for you, but may not have for someone else. Telling people that as truth as something that WILL happen will give them a false hope and if it doesn’t happen, will cause them to question if they can trust you, Christians in general, and God whom you represent.

  281. empathologism

    These posts, here and those linked, that deal with sexual refusal, alpha widowhood, etc. are more than just posts about sex, refusal, the effect of high N counts, etc.

    When I wrote about attending a Russel Moore sermon at a local church awhile back, the sermon he gave heralded the oft used metaphorical representation marriage is of Gods and mans relationship. OK. Then what?

    These related topics are the reduction we are marinating in in the evangelical feminized church. It both is and isn’t about you/me and our getting or not getting sex, or having/not having a submissive wife and so forth. It is absolutely about us seeing how we truly can walk out a glimpse of Gods kingdom on earth. Where in the world does the peace that surpasses understanding come from?

    On that question I will say that we can make that peace easier for ourselves AND our spouse by behaving according to the scriptures regarding marriage. Elsewhere i was arguing with a guy who is stuck in the mode of men making it easier for women to submit and telling him that is bad emphasis. But what I am saying now, it is good emphasis, as evidenced by the fact that living otherwise, for a man, is like dripping water, a lonely attic, a bad piece of toast, etc. Its pretty difficult to find temporal peace when living like that. Its very difficult to find peace in eternally framed truths no matter how true and powerful when day in and day out you battle your one-flesh-own-flesh over ridiculous manifestations of her nature that are not torn down by teaching, but built up and encouraged by it.

    When I read the CH piece about the woman pining for the buck she rutted 50 years ago, it was a huge buzz kill. That alone is enough to understand MGTOW. Those who claim to have married reformed sluts, in the sense we use the word, and things are grrrreat, how can they know things are great? They cannot. And most likely things being great just means they are not aware things are not great and that their wife laments not only (if she does) the sin of the past, but somehow simultaneously laments the loss of the thrill of it. That is some messed up shiite (and if you don’t own a camel you and shiite anyway; lame jokes help)

    I do not believe at all that no matter what a man does to ramp his married game, no matter what, that he can truly fix the alpha widow effect. Nor can a woman fix a memory the man has of an encounter(s) with, well, objectively hotter women even if the wife is sportingly very hot. Only if he WAS that alpha from way back is there not a problem. The couple can be sexually active, well ordered, happy stable etc. But the guy has this nagging feeling of inadequacy and being compared. Should he dwell there? No, of course not. Oddly if couples ask each other they always say oh sweety you are the best i ever had. Likely a lie, in the purely physical sense if both had average or high n counts. Besides, the memory of hot sex is way hotter than the sex was. And I do not know, well, how women remember things because I’m a man, but based on the other things I see them able to do with thoughts, its gotta be a serious problem when she begins to idealize a memory.

    We can know that most of this sexual rejection finds its root in these sinful thoughts, and not in simple boredom with her husband, but boredom when she compares it to those times in the past when, in her memory, she burned for bodice ripping.

    Its time to pray

  282. crimsonviceroy

    Emp,

    That is very well said. That’s why responded to Bee in another post when he was referring to how some women can repent and reform themselves from the past that they had with a string of lovers. It’s also why some widow’s can’t really re-marry because the bond that was created with their late husbands transcends the boundaries of life and death. Once that connection is made, it’s very hard, if not impossible, to break that kind of bond..which is why there was so much practicality infused with the truth of keeping the marital bed pure. Can a marriage survive the past…sure, with the grace and guidance from God, all is possible…but why tempt such a thing?

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  284. Hannah

    @ anonymous

    “And yet, you turned out righteous in the end — a true treasure for your husband.”

    Thank you for your encouragement :)

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