A dozen links. Plus, I miss The Patriarchy more each day, don’t you?

1. My Grandmother, The Dodo

My grandmother is the antithesis of what our feminist foes want every girl to be.  She goes to the gym every day, despite being 70+ years old.  She cooks massive delicious meals every time from scratch, feeding everyone in the family with plenty of leftovers.  She cleans, takes care of her husband and never complains.  She is what used to be the epitome of a housewife.

2. A French women’s traditionalist group:

3. ‘Cuz Indiana Jones, that’s why!  Saint Velvet from Traditional Christianity writes:

It’s called self-defense, bitchez!

4. Nick B. Steves at The Reactivity Place is in the midst of a ten-part series on Reactionary Consensus:

5. The Red Pill Society on Pinterest is hilarious:

          

6. I want one of these hero(ine) cards so badly.  Because I do think a metal bikini is my style, don’t you?

7. Food Freedom! Learn to cook.  Learn to raise some of your own food.  Avoid this:

8. Teaching Boys That Boys Are Inferior: SheZow?  Really?

9. The Society of Phineas has a handy chart comparing Christian Marriage 1.0 vs. Marriage 2.0.

10. Cane Caldo responds to a debate from my last thread his new post We Love the Impossible and Ruinous Lie:

One of the serious oversights of the discussions of sexual relations in the Manosphere is that men are just as affected by The Hamster as women. It does get discussed, but I don’t think it’s ever been tied together the way I’m doing here. What Thankful Husband is trying to talk about when he says love in the quoted comment is actually compassion and sexual desire for one person, and at the same time.

11. You Can’t Fix Your Marriage by Being Mad at the Opposite Sex, Athol Kay points out:

Societal problems are worth dealing with, but the difficulties of resolving Societal problems are well beyond any one person. So if you are having an Personal problem in your marriage, trying to fix the Societal pressures on your marriage will not provide a solution. Even as you make some tiny sliver of progress on the Societal issues, your Personal issues will continue to worsen. We might get some social change over the next 20-30 years, but your marriage may not make it that long.

12. Divine Motherhood, from The Thinking Housewife:

The Christian mother is not satisfied to prepare her child for this world — for friends, school, college, marriage and life in general. Her project extends into eternity. Thus she possesses a certain detachment that makes her authority over her children especially powerful and makes her less unsettled by their storms, whims or unpopularity by the world’s standards. For the pagan mother, her life is a success if her child is well-liked.

251 thoughts on “A dozen links. Plus, I miss The Patriarchy more each day, don’t you?

  1. Ton

    How can one miss something they have never experienced?

    I get the longing for the good ol days is human nature but it is still puzzling to me. I doubt the good ol days were all that good in a boat load or ways

  2. Farm Boy

    I doubt the good ol days were all that good in a boat load of ways

    Maybe so. But at least the “sassy type” couldn’t get the time of day.

    And they did not have first world problems like dishwashers failing

  3. Thankful Husband

    My response to the link I’m highlighted on:
    Maybe my woman is better than most….be she quite literally knows and feels loved and protected…it’s not unattainable at all. I’m a red pill guy, but I stop about 70% of the way in.. I don’t take women’s hamster’s or emotions or intelligence as far, or as short as many of you. I feel sorry for some of you. How it must feel to have a woman you can never count on unless you keep her in place except by complete control. Whatever you describe about me and my marriage is completely innaccurate…so that means either I or my wife are of better quality than the average (which may have some truth to it) or your thesis is wrong. Don’t know how else to say it. 2+2=4….so either we or our marriage is unique in some way or you are off in your thesis. My wife would rush hades with me with a bucket of water…but not only because she knows she has to but because she would WANT to. I think a great many of you are trying to over compensate for the obvious unbalanced approach (downright untrue approach) of the christian feminists…but you end up being just as wrong.

  4. Lori Alexander

    I loved the first one! I don’t think he is a believer, but I think most men long for days when women acted like women and loved all the aspects of home life. I enjoyed your post yesterday. My husband and I got a good laugh over it. He told me he would have given me 2 choices…a good spanking or no dishwasher. I told him I would take the spanking any day! {I think most children would prefer a good spanking to time out, being grounded, etc. It is over so much quicker and I think pain is a great teacher.}

    [ssm: If my husband threatened me with a good spanking, I'd have those knives right back in the dishwasher in a jiffy, yes I would. :)]

  5. Svar

    I like number 2. For some reason, I really, really like number two.

    [ssm: Svar! You have an uncanny ability to be gone for months, and then for some reason you'll pop into my head and I'll wonder how you are, and within a day or two you show up! How very clever of you always to know exactly when I'm wondering how you are! :)]

  6. Ton

    I don’t give sassy women the time of day. I do however have a knack for giving them what they subconsciously crave, correction

  7. Thankful Husband

    I think this will be my last post…I’ve come to realize something in the last 48 hours. I’ve enjoyed my time here at SSM at Dalrock’s the last 40 days or so after discovering you (about the time I gave up on the standard christian marriage blogs) but I’ve come to realize when a statement like “being a godly man and a man in the true sense of the word makes it easier for her to submit” raises the ruckus and disdain it has I’ve realized you are just as far off the mark as the other side is. By logic, by scripture, hell even by the own red pill theory being a man and being a godly man is what will inspire her to submit. Never did I say that his actions should determine whether or not she submits…I said it would make it easier…for he would be taking the lead by being a man and he would no abuse his power by being a godly man. Be common sense if you are both looking to God and following Him you are ever moving closer to Him, it makes it easier and more likely to happen. The insanity that such a statement goes against the logic of the followers of this website (and owner?) is beyond belief…and I now understand the hesitation and even fear the other side feels (although I totally do not agree with them to not follow through with submission…I just understand their hesitation when such a comment could be conveyed as evil). There seems to be an underbelly to the manosphere of lack of accountability on the man’s part and his responsiblity. I do understand the bitterness and even anger against the feminists…they truly are man haters. But I am not willing to go past where God calls us to be just to balance them out. My goal is Christ. Does that involve patriarchy? Without a doubt. But it is with a husband that is not only in charge but is loving, is tender, sacrificial, gentle, firm and couregous. I see the same lack of willingness to call out the people here as I do on the other’s blog’s. You don’t get to call the feminists on their sin and not address your own. You don’t get to call them on their language and hate and use words like “put your foot on their throat” , revenge….and a host of others. You remind me of people trying to overthrow a dictator and start with good intentions but in the war & battle you become just as bad as the people you are fighting to overthrow. I get it, war is ugly and brutal…it’s a fight. However, I can’t justify this or reconcile it with my faith. I get the feeling everyone wants to be the Christ that threw over tables in the temple…but He only did that one day. For thirty years He lived quietly as a carpenter. For three years he served in open ministry. Most of His time was spent healing and teaching. He called out the sinners and religious leaders and yes He overturned the tables….but it was only a portion…it wasn’t the all encompassing message of His ministry. I’m afraid I feel as much hate from this side as I do from say Gregoire….I’m okay with hate as long as you are hating true sin. The kind of hate that can come out of making not only a biblical statement, but one that holds up to common sense and logic (being a godly man and man will make it easier for her…), I can’t go with that.

  8. Miserman

    @Thankful Husband

    There seems to be an underbelly to the manosphere of lack of accountability on the man’s part and his responsibility

    There is no problem with calling men to handle their responsibility. Rather, there is a problem with men being called to handle what is not their responsibility, such as a woman’s happiness and feelings. Having men who are loving, tender, sacrificial, gentle, firm and couregous is important, but not to the point where a man’s service due his wife is equal to the service due Christ and rendering his own interests null and void. This is essentially what evangelical feminism is pushing for.

    Popular evangelical films like Fireproof and Courageous present the message that a man’s service to Christ is manifest in his serve to women. In other words, for a man to not serve his wife’s emotional ambitions is to not serve Christ. It is a subtle message, but there. Men are railing against that particular call of accountability and responsibility.

    I do not see the underbelly you speak of other than in sites that are specifically geared toward finding women for the sole sake of sex. Manosphere sites within a Christian framework utterly reject this.

    God bless.

  9. Ton

    Frank, his feelings are hurt because men called him out so he is taking his ball and going home to play

    Leastwise I think so. The post was hard to read, very womanish and difficult to cipher

  10. FuzzieWuzzie

    Frank,
    1) ditto what Ton said.
    2) I followed your link and read the single mom post.Did she really write all that stuff about the consequences of marrying a single mom? I may have dodged a bullet.
    One small bit of advice, trading snark with these people seems kind of futile. Not that I want to catch any bees but, I’ve been told it’s easier with honey than vinegar.

    Who me? Give away honey????

  11. Frank

    Fuzzle: No the consequences list came from a MGTOW forum. I updated my post to make the source more clear.

    I know the snark can be futile, but boy does it make for great humor. Surprisingly, just by rebuffing their attacks I’ve noticed a growing number of women who initially flip their wigs at me, only to come back later and apologize, and wind up becoming far more receptive to what I write than I’d ever expect them to be. So… not always futile after all.

  12. FuzzieWuzzie

    Frank,
    Interesting technique and completely counter intuitive.
    Glad it’s working. Keep flipping wigs!
    Maybe there’s some application of Game theory going on here.

  13. Thankful Husband

    @ Ton
    Sorry one last post…not trying to take my ball & go home. I just can reconcile what I see here with what I read in my bible. Same reason I left the other “christian” marriage blogs. They aren’t teaching a scriptural message and neither is here.

    @ Miserman
    Christ very much teaches us to serve our wives…if you are reading more into it that I think you should cater to her every emotion…that is on you my friend but nowhere was it implied or stated on my part. You read into based on your own bias….which is what a great many of the commentators here do and no one calls them on it, except SSM sometimes when dealing with sexual immorality.

    Bottom line, my goal is Christ….not patriarchy. If I shoot for Christ I will have patriarchy. If I shoot for patriarchy I will miss Christ.

  14. empathologism

    Christ very much teaches us to serve our wives…if you are reading more into it that I think you should cater to her every emotion

    he didn’t say otherwise TH. I really dislike saying trite things like this, but you have a very big comprehension problem. Its not that you can’t read and understand what is written, its that you over write what is written with something you THINK they are going to say, then you address that. Its frankly disingenuous even if unintentional man.

    You couldnt understand when I told you that its true what you say we are called to do for wives but the manner and context of saying it leads to supplication. You simply refuse to address the words on the page and what they mean. You are pulling a Quixote on us and on yourself man. No monsters in here…..none.

  15. FuzzieWuzzie

    Quixote? I know what need to be done! Leave the computer and take “Dulcinea” out for dinner.

  16. FuzzieWuzzie

    Empath,
    I’m sorry. Th wore you out yesterday and you have my sympathies.
    Do you think this may help?

    There’s a little bit of Don Quixote in us all.

  17. FuzzieWuzzie

    I do seem to be stuck in the sixteenth century. There are similarities. Guttenerg had invented the printing press allowing anyone of means to have a bible in their home. No longer did the church “own the narrative”.
    Now we have computers and the internet. Ideas can be “published” and disseminated at lightning speed. No longer does the main stream media “own the narrative”.
    Do you think that we may be on the brink of a grassroots social revolution?

  18. FuzzieWuzzie

    Ton,
    I just wish that TH would take his “Dulcinea” to dinner and leave Empath alone for a while.

  19. Thankful Husband

    EMP,
    I will admit I often post in a hurry & my grammar is below average when writing as such but somehow my comprehension and communication problem did not show up when I was voted most likely to succeed in both high school and first rate private college. Nor did it affect me during my time in the fulltime ministry or running a very successful business the last dozen years where I turn more work away than I take on with a reputation second to none. I have been told by some of the most powerful men in the world my communication is second to none and they wait six months to have me do work for them where others could do it tomorrow…it seems to only show up here for some reason. So either I have multiple personalities, or it’s the setting, or the people here just don’t like to choke down what I have to say because it is either incorrect (again please use scripture) or goes against their grain. But you keep telling me I’m correct…just not to say it outloud in the way I say it. Okay then…I won’t say it any more. But I won’t stay here and listen to people say this is Christ’s way when it is not…if I can’t use scripture (and not bits and pieces but the whole) or call men to account also I don’t want any part of it. Somehow you think my message is common sense, and yet I see in a dozen men in the comments section here talking about sexual immorality…but you don’t call them on it. I see men talking about violence against women…but you don’t call them on it. If I overstate things and it’s such common sense then why do these comments show up?

    Miserman said:
    There is no problem with calling men to handle their responsibility. Rather, there is a problem with men being called to handle what is not their responsibility, such as a woman’s happiness and feelings. Having men who are loving, tender, sacrificial, gentle, firm and courageous is important, but not to the point where a man’s service due his wife is equal to the service due Christ and rendering his own interests null and void. This is essentially what evangelical feminism is pushing for.

    When did I say this? When? Where did I state that was what I wanted? Nowhere. But if you aren’t here to just slam women, if for even an instant you say a man has responsibility you have the full weight of the commentators brought down on you here. You all have problems…serious problems. Feminism is awful. A great many of it’s followers are also but so is the attitude presented here by a majority of the commentators and you in particular. You have said: I’m right, but I’m wrong. I speak truth, but it leads to evil. You speak out of both sides of your mouth more than Obama. I’m sorry your marriage sucks. I wouldn’t wish that on anybody, especially a brother in Christ, but why do you keep harping on me? Why is it so awful to say that a husband should have these traits & shoot for them & even that they would be beneficial to his wife? Especially in an environment where we have had people 1) joke about hitting women in the last 24 hours 2) have people talk about holding their throat down with our boot in the last 24 hours 3) call for revenge 4) complain about loose women & then comment about sleeping with as many women as possible. If what I say is so overstated then why are there these comments?

    Wow…I’m speechless….I wish one gal would weigh in here because I’m absolutely shell shocked that you guys put up with this crap. If some of you talked about women (and yes ALL women has been used again in the last 24 hours) in my house this way I’d pick you up by the back of your shirt and fling you out the front door. I wish someone would grow a pair around here and put you all in your place. Nobody, especially me, is asking you to supplicate your wives very emotion or feeling. All I have said is shoot for being both a man and a godly man…that’s it!!!!!!

    For the absolute record a wife should submit no matter what her husband does…but I’ve said that half a dozen times.

  20. Ton

    Interesting analogy Fuzzie

    Ok my Fuzzie friend what is a Dulcinea? For some reason I doubt we are talking about watermelons

  21. Ton

    No you would not pick me up and fling me any where.

    Now I understand you were a minister and fully corrupt in modern church learning.

    You have said that in most of your lost TH, but you are/ were fully immersed in it. Funny part is, you are totally unaware of your conditioning

  22. Miserman

    @Thankful Husband

    When did I say this? When? Where did I state that was what I wanted? Nowhere.

    Granted. But in the context of dealing with feminism, saying one leaves room for the other, whether you wanted it or not. Understand that when you use terms like “loving, tender, sacrificial, gentle” you’re all but handing feminism a victory, whether you want to or intend to. Feminists want men with these “responsible” traits and they are code words for a men placing women on a pedal equal to or above themselves. Again, you’re intentions are good, as most Christian men I have met have good intentions. However, feminism has these terms framed in their context and in their language. Feminism frames the debate. This is why the manosphere is so reactionary. We are fighting to reframe the debate in favor of men and patriarchy, wresting the language away from feminism. Sometimes it gets very ugly, unfortunately, but softening the stance and language to avoid appearing ugly only plays the game by feminist rules.

    If some of you talked about women … in my house this way I’d pick you up by the back of your shirt and fling you out the front door.

    I would ask if women are allowed to talk about men in “this way,” even in jest? In every household I’ve visited, the answer is yes.

  23. Pat

    “{I think most children would prefer a good spanking to time out, being grounded, etc. It is over so much quicker and I think pain is a great teacher.}”

    That’s a good reason to ground them or give them a time out.

    [ssm: A note to readers: "Pat" is the same person as Bob and Bob33. And from now on, posting here under multiple handles without first clearing that with me via email will lead to automatic comment moderation.]

  24. FuzzieWuzzie

    Ton,
    When Don Quixote gooes on his quest, he stops at an inn. Dulcinea is the food server. In his eyes, she’s a fine lady and worthy of all his knightly protection. It’s high comedy and probably the only good product of the Spanish Inquisition. The author, Cervantes, was held for two years and he wrote it then.

  25. nightskyradio

    SSM – I want one of these hero(ine) cards so badly.

    Then you should start making some. Come up with your own series.

    Or hire me to do it. I’m decent with a pencil and photoshop.

  26. Amanda Lynn Larson

    Miss it? Yes and no. There were horrible parts to it, such as the police response to the clear cut domestic violence calls and child abuse. I’m not remotely denying the damage done to the home and the family, but there were some battles that needed to be fought and some evil that was neatly tucked beneath the rug. Women, unfortunately, were on the receiving end of much of that. That women are angry now isn’t all due to feminists being evil.

    I’d love to see more love for stay at home moms though!

  27. FuzzieWuzzie

    Ton,
    Found this. Wish I could found somethig with Richard Kiley, who made the role. Peter O’Toole can’t sing. but Sophia Loren is well cast.

  28. Thankful Husband

    @ Miserman
    You sound like the exact opposite of Sheila Wray Gregoire…she won’t use the word submit because men use it to hurt women. Come on folks…let’s use the words the Bible uses and if we have a disagreement about the meaning let’s figure it out and hammer it out. I’m sorry I refuse to stop using the word love…that’s idiotic. Same with the others. Are you lawyers & politicians or men? You want love to mean love, then live love…enough men do it you can’t argue with the definition.

    @ Ton
    I quit pastoring because the church was lukewarm and if I wanted to say what God was telling me to say (and I did) I was without a job. Tried it again, to do it and speak truth but subtle…couldn’t do it. So yes, I won’t ever pastor again unless it’s a church I found and have control over…a cowboy church probably. And ton I’ve lifted 1 ton flipped forklifts back on their wheels and drug full grown bulls 100 yards…don’t be so sure.

  29. FuzzieWuzzie

    SSM,
    You’re already a heroine. Card or no card. Anyway, here is a blond Queen Boudicca:

    http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=queen+boudicca&qpvt=queen+boudicca&FORM=IGRE#view=detail&id=B2B6AA53398785638380E11F497370C8F3EC69F4&selectedIndex=1

    I think she was a redhead but, no one who really knows is around to say so.

    [ssm: Fuzzie, thanks for the suggestion. I rather like Queen Boudicca and she fought the good fight, but in the end she was poisoned and her daughters all raped, so I think I won't adopt her as my image! But incidentally my natural hair color is actually copper red, as hers was reported to be. I started coloring mine blonde when I turned 30 at my husband's request.]

  30. nightskyradio

    Ton – Ok my Fuzzie friend what is a Dulcinea? For some reason I doubt we are talking about watermelons

    It’s also an album by Toad The Wet Sprocket, an early 90s band. They were never really great, but they could be really really good. The album even has a song called “Windmills.”

    Just to make empath suffer a little more…

    Looking back now, it seems kinda red pill, don’t it?

  31. Ton

    Thanks for the education Fuzzie, and a good play on words.

    TH, I am a nationally rank in power lifting, fought in MMA at the professional level( before they girlyed it up with rules) and violence is my profession. I eagerly look forward to men taking a more hands on approach.

  32. Ton

    Sorry NSR, I only listen to bluegrass music. That video reminds me why, but I do appreciate the schooling.

  33. Kate

    Thankful Husband: You sound like the kind of person I can respect. Anger is not always righteous. One must constantly examine their own actions and motives then adjust to follow true north. Take on responsibility for their own happiness. As far as dealing with people on the internet, its the same as in real life. Plant a seed. It will take root or not. That is all you are beholden to do. The rest is up to them. If and when they want to know more, they will look for their answers. It may be from you or from someone else. Lead by example. Model the right way. It rubs off and people you may not even realize are impacted. I see hypocrisy everywhere. Sometimes I even see it within myself. But combat takes place in the trenches. Take a breather. Enjoy the wonderful relationship you have with your wife. Do not let that be tainted. But come around and spread your message and joy again another time.

  34. Thankful Husband

    Ton,
    Yeah, I could tell if it came to blows you’d be the one I had to handle one on one.. The rest are three or four at a time. You might have the upper hand, my size keeps 99.99% of men from even thinking of a challenge so the rust is thick. But I will tell you my ex special forces brother wants no part of me so I hope it never comes to it my friend, especially, if you are a brother in Christ. I wish we could agree on more and fight less. Nothing is more personal than our faith and marriage and I know things get tense but in the end we will have to share heaven if indeed you are a believer (I have a tough time telling from your posts whether you truly believe). There seems like there is enough evil in the world to fight that christians wouldn’t be fighting among themselves…but I’m as guilty as the next on this one. But just in case I have no ill feelings towards you or any of the commentators (even EMP), I just want to see Christ glorified in our marriages and on earth.

  35. Ton

    I you do not worship the same God as Christains.I worship the God of the Bible, the God of war, commander of hosts who told men to take dominion over the earth, told His children to annihilate His enemies, loot their cities, take their women, who came to bring a sword and will return with a sword.

    Most folks worship their magical wish granting BFF.

  36. sunshinemary

    TH:

    You don’t get to call them on their language and hate and use words like “put your foot on their throat”

    I did not see this comment. Would you please link to it so that I can delete it? Such comments, even if only meant metaphorically, are irresponsible and violate my commenting policy.

    Same reason I left the other “christian” marriage blogs. They aren’t teaching a scriptural message and neither is here.

    If I have suggested something that is not scriptural, I would be grateful if you would point it out to me. I strive to draw my conclusions in my posts from Biblical principles, and if I have erred somewhere, I’d like to correct that. One little thing to remember: any teaching I do is geared solely toward women. Yes, there are male readers here, but posts in which I teach from Scripture are always quite explicitly addressing other women, per 1 Timothy 2:12.

  37. FuzzieWuzzie

    SSM,
    I’ve been trying hard to think of an alternate warrior queen and they all seem to end in tragedy.
    I like Boudicca because she suffered multiple outrages and rebelled against the most vicious of opponents.
    What happened to her daughters runs deeper. Because of what the Romans did, they were unmarriagable. The Iceni line would die and Rome would inherit.
    I would like to think, if I were there, I’d join her, even knowing how it all turns out.

  38. Cranberry

    That Pinterest board is awesome. I know I’m going to PO a lot of my fellow Pinners, but I think some of them might need a nudge in the RP direction. Thanks for that, SSM.

  39. FuzzieWuzzie

    NSR,
    We need someone who personifies dignity and wears metal accourtements.
    Hmmmm…..

  40. Thankful Husband

    SSM,
    I’m not trying to get you to clean up things, although I think if it is your blog…woman or not you have some of the responsiblity to it. I’m more calling the men here who seem to have such a problem with the sin of women (and rightfully so) to police themselves and man up to their own sins. How many men in the last day more or less said they are playing the field and yet complain about the carousel & sluts. You can’t have it both ways. While I did not agree with you the other day I respected your opinion on no divorce/leaving and standing up to me. I thought at least the threat in certain situations needed to be kept in the tool box for a truly, truly rebellious woman…but I understood and appreciated you standing up to me. It was biblical and I appreciated it. I understood I was standing outside of the biblical guidelines but was willing to own up to that. The talk about violence towards women troubles me. I have no problem if a few hombres want to go at it, but towards women?

    I don’t know how many of your readers are women, but the majority of your commentators are men. It seems many of them have tough marriages and I understand needing to vent but they can go well beyond that to downright hatred and venom towards women or anyone who even mentions not all women are bad, unintelligent, etc. or that men have even a great share of responsiblity in a godly marriage. That’s my beef…if this wasn’t a christian site I wouldn’t have a beef, but all they do is make it that much harder for patriarchy to gain ground, appreciation and respect with the comments like I’ve seen. Please, I’m not trying to whine…I’d rather just walk away as I know I’m not agreed with and I know I’m not going to sway anyone. But that was the reason for my original and subsequent posts today.

  41. Farm Boy

    BTW, a single mom loses her mind in a hate mail to me:

    Frank, you are incredible. How do you do it?

  42. nightskyradio

    Fuzzie – We need someone who personifies dignity and wears metal accourtements

    Fine, YOU go tell her she looks undignified. She needs a new bearskin rug anyway. ;)

  43. Ton

    There can be no responsibility without authority. The church and the state has destroyed masculine authority and God has not restored it. Men can not have a greater level of responsibility because we no longer have authority. In fact we have two(& many more) institutions hell bent on crushing the last bits of masculine authority

    At almost every post TH you declare yourself on the side of team woman, the feminists and the enemy

  44. FuzzieWuzzie

    Farm Boy and NSR,
    What a horrible idea!
    To eliminate confusion, we need a dignified PICTURE.
    SSM, contrary to reports, you are most certainly dignified.
    I’ll keep my fur coat where it is, thankyou very much. Come to think of it, I need a little dignity too.

  45. FuzzieWuzzie

    Ton,
    I’ve never read it. However, it is considered the best of Spanish literature. The cliff notes version would be “Man of La Mancha”, a Broadway musical. Bet you can find it on youtube.

  46. FuzzieWuzzie

    NSR,
    Do you think WalMart stocks them in sizes to fit bears? I’ve heard that normal human sizes there are in short supply.

  47. FuzzieWuzzie

    Farm Boy,
    You forgot Smokey’s middle name.
    BTW, a couple days ago, you took the night off. Can we look forward to posts from “Farm Girl” soon?

  48. Amanda Lynn Larson

    Ton: Okay, life happens. This part happened to be unpleasant for conservative men. I get that. What I’m not seeing is what’s next? What’s are the goals? The things to help minister to the lost, do good, and spread the gospel?

    You may already be involved in amazing leadership, I’m not trying to assume anything. I’m just not sure what to think overall. I’m seeing a lot of the some complaints/concerns, but not much about what to do next. What if healing doesn’t come, and people don’t behave? What’s the next step in doing good?

  49. FuzzieWuzzie

    Amanda,
    We’re at the point where problems are still being addressed and brought to light. Hopefully, when a problem is properly identified, the solution presents itself. We haven’t reached the “El Alemain” moment yet where Churchill described it as not the beginning of the end but, the end of the beginning.
    Now would be a good time for everybody to start thinking about the healing.

  50. Amanda Lynn Larson

    Fuzzie: I don’t remotely expect all problems to be solved in a day. There likely isn’t one solution, or or one solution for all people. Nor is it all on men. My concern was that I seem to see an focus emerging more on correcting behavior, especially female behavior, and much less on action.

    There’s so much happening in the world outside of the Church, and so much more than whether individual Christian women are behaving ‘properly’. There’s boys that desperately need Godly male mentors, services that need to shift to cover men and women equally (I say this as someone that works in social services), and much more. I’d just to love to see even a handful of some of the educated, strong Christian men working with some of the organizations that work with men and boys, for example. It’d be amazing. :) And I do think that those things would lead to healing in other areas, that’s how Jesus started revival, after all.

  51. FuzzieWuzzie

    NSR,
    Looks like a great pace to buy pants! Like the jewelry but, on me, it would be alittle redundant.
    For some silly reason, it made me think of gingerbread men. Now, that’s a happy thought!

  52. Legion

    Queen Boudicca – A little history

    The rebellion lead by Queen Boudicca was crushed at the battle of Towcester. Less than 10,000 legionnaires under the Governor Paulinus fought a horde of 160,000 Pretanians. I’m sure many were camp followers.

    The Romans lost under 600 men. Over 60,000 Pretanians were killed. Paulinus then savaged the lands in revenge. Emperor Claudius said, “He makes a desert and calls it victory.”

    This is all off the top of my head. Details may be wrong, but the quote is good.

  53. Legion

    Ton June 1, 2013 at 11:00 pm
    “Hey Fuzzie is Don Quixote worth reading?”

    Yes it is a good read. A note on Cervantes: He fought in the last galley fight in the Mediterranean, the Battle of Lepanto. It is believed he was given responsibility for one of his galley’s boats.

    The tactic was to go around the opposite side of the enemy galley they were fighting against, when locked together. Cervantes then lead the boat crew in attack on the galley. It was considered of position of authority to do this.

  54. Chris

    @ SSM. I’m going to back Frank on the internet dating women thing. You can meet some godly people — it seems to now be an obligatory part of the dating scene — but even a simple screen (Nice. Christian. Not 200lbs) rules out a large number.

    @ Svar. Those Antigone Gals are almost enough to make me stop hating the French. Because they remind us that the French do not only practice collapse, communism and cowardice but have had periods of reaction and reform. Go wed one. Now.

  55. TheShadowedKnight

    Amanda, regarding your last two comments on this thread and the one on disrespect and rebellion, I have this.

    If this frightens you, you are not looking hard enough. SSM has a relatively mild and friendly group here. Try Roissy or even Vox Day if you want to see the less gentle side of the androsphere. You would be savaged and ridiculed by nearly everyone, as the disagreements would be cast aside to instead descend on the feminist interloper.

    The kind of men that would guide the lost boys are the same people that would end feminism in a heartbeat. Giving them the hearts and minds of a group of lost and hopeless young men and showing them how screwed they are getting… Not a great way to get converts to Feminism. It is a great way to start an army, though. Young men, especially young white men, are the most destructive power on the face of the earth. That should be scary, not SSM.

    The Shadowed Knight

  56. Amanda Lynn Larson

    TheShadowedKnight: I find it disturbing when we’re talking about training wives in the same way we’d talk about house training a dog. Granted, some women talk this way about their husbands. The thing is? I found it degrading then too. I’m not married, but I’m really hoping that’s not marriage -is-. Maybe disturbing would have been a better choice than scary, though the idea of giving up that power to someone that doesn’t seem to like women and/or the world that much qualifies as scary.

    I have read worse, and deal with worse at work quite often (I currently work at a agency that deals with victims of violence and sexual assault. I get to hear all kinds of horror stories). My favorite on the internet is when people think women should corrected via rape. Re: Roissy and Vox Day- If they are what they sound like, I would be sad they have life issues, expect the violently misogynistic reaction, and pray that God heals them. If they’re that angry, they’re definitely not happy.

    I don’t worship feminism and I wasn’t actually trying to get converts. I would be thrilled to see men doing awesome things because it’s awesome -regardless of whether we agree on everything-. Ideally, the focus would be more on Christ, victory in Christ and other things besides playing the victim. You’re not going to fight feminism effectively by joining the victimhood bandwagon it espouses.

    Back to feminism: I think it brought about some needed changes (fighting domestic violence, rape, etc), but I think it has some horribly destructive aspects as well. It’s of the world, and not respectful of Christianity and can be very hostile toward men. It’s certainly not a blanket answer to life’s problems.

  57. Ton

    #1 girl, I am not conservative, I want to conserve and protect close to nothing and today’s conservative is last week’s liberal. They will “conserve” what ever is the status quo. I could be called a traditionalist, but really you’d have to go back to the 1860′s and earlier to find my political and social norms, with out the 1800′s liberal view toward women of course.

    Reactionary and Southern Separatist would be more accurate.

    As for me, I do nothing. There can be no healing, and no going back to something more rational without a crushing victory over women and leftism in all its forms. Women and society must suffer greatly before it will change and return to correct behavior. Anything done in the short term will only prop up a corrupt system and people. Doing nothing will work as feminism/ leftism is unworkable and will destroy itself over time. Or will so weaken the West a forgein people will replace us. Which I think is the most likely to occur and already is in a very way.

    My plan is to make a shit ton of money, buy real estate in my favorite Eastern Eurpeoan city and be gone before the butcher’s bill arrives or leave as the bill shows up

    Strong men are not wanted in the church or social services. In fact both have gone out of their to make that clear.

    Never understood folks being all spun up about about Boudicca myself.

    It has been my great pleasure to experience the charm of French women during my recent travels. I recommend them over American women on every possible front.

  58. Anon

    SSM. I know you have taken measures to be less vulnerable to it, but I think Thankful Husband is the new T.

  59. Some Guy

    “There’s boys that desperately need Godly male mentors, services that need to shift to cover men and women equally (I say this as someone that works in social services), and much more. I’d just to love to see even a handful of some of the educated, strong Christian men working with some of the organizations that work with men and boys, for example.”

    You know why you need men in their lives? Because people like you have removed every incentive for men to be there in the first place. In some cases, you’ve even destroyed honest men in the divorce courts or with false rape and “abuse” charges. The best case scenario is that a man that wants to stick around and raise the children he’s brought into the world is reduced to mere boyfriend status. This is fraud.

    All of this is due to feminism and giving away something for nothing on a massive scale. And now your answer is for the chumps that have already been shafted to go sign up and give MORE. But it’s not really “for the children.” It’s an indirect transfer of resources to the women that basically said they didn’t need a man in the first place or else that spurned all the men that would have actually made good husband material in the first place.

  60. Anon

    “I’d just to love to see even a handful of some of the educated, strong Christian men working with some of the organizations that work with men and boys, for example. It’d be amazing”

    You mean like the gay boy scouts? No thanks. All the institutions have fallen, there are none left.

  61. empathologism

    Amanda
    There’s so much happening in the world outside of the Church, and so much more than whether individual Christian women are behaving ‘properly’. There’s boys that desperately need Godly male mentors, services that need to shift to cover men and women equally (I say this as someone that works in social services), and much more. I’d just to love to see even a handful of some of the educated, strong Christian men working with some of the organizations that work with men and boys, for example. It’d be amazing. :) And I do think that those things would lead to healing in other areas, that’s how Jesus started revival, after all.

    Im glad you wrote this. This is the same position the church takes. Dedicate lots of resources towards social pathologies. Addictions, violence, suicide, etc. Worthy of help indeed. But an unbiased look at the root cause, and having the courage to see it, will show you that divorce , ruined familism, is at the root of the majority of these problems.

    Divorce is offered lip service. Most churches offer programs that HELP people get divorced. Why do you suppose that is? Its simple, because it is women doing the divorcing in the main, statistically.

    If a storm hit your house and the roof was torn off your kitchen, and then there was a small leak in the hall, where would immediate effort go? Female filed groundless divorce is the roof off the kitchen and the leak in the hall is male caused divorces. So, the church is busy in the kitchen with paper towels drying everything that’s getting wet (social pathologies), ignoring the roof off (female frivolous divorce and female feral behavior in general) and is pouring massive correction into men (the leaky hallway) regarding man up, step up, sex addicts, porn, “abuse”(goofily defined).

    Its good to help those boys. Its better that those boy’s dads were not jettisoned because mom didn’t like him anymore and that social services and the church rushes in to coddle the woman who filed the divorce that sent the boys into troubled territory.

  62. Miserman

    @TH

    You sound like the exact opposite of Sheila Wray Gregoire…she won’t use the word submit because men use it to hurt women.

    I’ve no problem with using words like “submit” and “love,” but along with related words like “head” these words have been reframed in feminist context. It makes discussions extremely difficult. Even “conservative” leaders who claim to challenge feminism often do so from a stance already compromised with feminism. Frustrating to say the least.

    Please, I’m not trying to whine…I’d rather just walk away as I know I’m not agreed with and I know I’m not going to sway anyone.

    Regardless of whether you’re agreed with or sway anyone, your contributions are not in vain. Sometimes the best you can do is put your two cents in and leave it in God’s hands. Don’t leave the discussions if you feel you need to give and defend a point of view. I one time argued with seven women in a heated debate and made my point, even though it was a brutal and vicious slaughter of my thoughts. That was unpleasant, but I was honest. There is a reason these places are called the “area of ideas.”

    Look, I have no problem with women and I have no animosity toward the opposite sex. I have a real problem with the fact that like so many other men I was lied to about women and their place in this world. I have a problem with the way I see men beat down and driven into lives of “quiet desperation” or simple resignation because of the way marriage and culture is currently structured against them. I pray and hope the young couples I see emerging fresh from the altar and honeymoon will not decline into the same state, though I see theirs as marriages of equality, without any substantive male headship.

  63. empathologism

    The young couples marriages of equality are sadly a step in the right direction compared to those of generations before where there was a veneer of order but a female headed marriage

  64. Sigyn

    Re: Roissy and Vox Day- If they are what they sound like, I would be sad they have life issues, expect the violently misogynistic reaction, and pray that God heals them. If they’re that angry, they’re definitely not happy.

    Judging people you don’t know and haven’t heard out isn’t going to lead to any kind of healing.

  65. Hannah

    Unless you are actively living with an anti-feminist view-point, you’re automatically living entrenched in feminism. Sadly that goes for the church too.

    At our church today (Calvary Chapel), the pastor spoke on 1st Timothy 2:9-15
    1 Timothy 2:9-15

    …”in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works. Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.”

    It was so refreshing to hear him speak simply and plainly in explanation of the above verses!
    Every other church I’ve been to manages to soak the verses in feminism and find excuses for why it’s not ‘really’ saying what it says.

    In a sense, he was preaching to the choir at our little church – but good on him for speaking the truth. He called it his ‘rapture message’ – as in, he hoped he might vanish before having to speak on the subject :)

    I was told that last year in a dutch reform church here in N.Z., a pastor spoke on modesty, upset all the ladies of the church, and was fired the same week.

    That being said, I don’t believe women are the enemy – they are DECEIVED just as in the garden. Most women don’t really know what they’re signing up for when they get all passionate about issues that appeal to their ‘feelings’…. they just act on what is in front of them in any given situation, and before you know it, they’ve jumped on board the ‘equality’ train.
    Many of my friends give so much weight to EXPERIENCES – forgoing logic and reason in the process.

    I know two couples currently locked into this situation – one husband revealed the secret sin of pornography to his wife… several Ken Nair courses later – she’s now his personal ‘sin revealer’. If she doesn’t FEEL happy, it’s his fault. No matter the situation.
    I’ve told them they can have a Patriarchal home or a Matriarchal one, but only one has God’s blessing.

    Another couple are separated as the wife won’t go home until the husband changes! No adultery, no physical abuse. But apparently he has issues and needs to change BEFORE she goes back.
    Does she not know God HATES divorce?! I’ve told the friends letting her stay with them that they should pull the safety mat away and tell her to go home.

    My Dad and I have plans for a t-shirt label ‘things look better in black and white’ and have great times thinking up tees such as ‘feminism; the ugly lie’, ‘chaos begins where discrimination ends’, ‘darkness is near’… and imagine we’ll be wildly popular ;)

    ‘Feminism – the ugly lie’ T-shirt anyone?!

    [ssm: LOL, love the T-shirt idea!]

  66. empathologism

    Farm Boy

    That article and the Parker one it parses are the secular versions of TH. Now the Fox News gals are apoplectic about a study showing kids of working moms dont do as well. See, if that husband saw that and lead, saying for his kids they were going to do everything they could to ensure their upbringing, he would badly upset her and make it hard for her to submit. She would feel really bad. That is not what they would describe as servant leadership, as sacrificial love.

    Rushing to and fro, eating from cartons, exhausted and overweight and sassy, now THAT is a wife being sacrificially loved. The house a barely contained mess, maybe maids once a week to keep the mold at bay, but when she does shop for groceries and they have meals, let me tell you sweety its all organic (http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/health/organic-food-healthier-stanford-researchers-nutrition-organic-meats-produce-dairy-better-article-1.1151470) and that makes her feel like a mommy . And they get herbs and spices for meds and they will not be vaccinated and no way on the gluten baby. The family will have “switched off” day once a week and sit and play a board game. When there is time, ahem.

    Oh what depths we have fallen to, and with champions like Parker who says:

    Before you reach for the inhaler, permit me to introduce a few disclaimers. First, I’m all for women achieving all they can. Obviously, I’m on that treadmill myself. I’ve raised three children while working (mostly self-employed and briefly as a single mom). There is no moisture behind my ears.

    Go grrl

  67. Lisa in Vermont

    Amanda,
    : Okay, life happens. This part happened to be unpleasant for conservative men. I get that. What I’m not seeing is what’s next? What’s are the goals? The things to help minister to the lost, do good, and spread the gospel?

    I think you hit the nail on the head. It’s too bad that a handful of angry commentators have turned most of the posts on this blog into tirades about how women are inherently evil and need to be put in their place b/c they’re incapable of making rational, moral decisions. There really hasn’t been much discussion lately about viable solutions to the problems that SSM outlines in her posts.

    I do like your idea about men reaching out to boys without a positive male role model. Our church has a mentoring program where men take boys from single-parent homes fishing, camping and on other traditionally masculine activities and talk to them about when it means to be a man and the Christian model of the roles men should play in our society. It also recently started a mentoring program for fathers who want to be better fathers, but aren’t sure how to go about it.

  68. empathologism

    Is it a new idea to teach men?

    Think before responding

    Shall i link you up to the more than 150 sermons I, in a fit of near divorce despair OCD, researched and downloaded seeking truth about the gender balance of the church? It was that sleep and food deprived fit of research that led me to where I am today.

    These are basic things, should not need repeating here.

    Mothers day, gush and encourage
    Fathers Day, admonish, say you CAN do better, step up

    Sermon series on marriage where one weekend is “to the men”, the next is “to the women”. These are man up messages to them men, and -tongue in cheek references to how hard men make it for women-to the women. Yuk yuk, fuuuuneeee

    The programs offered by the churches, as listed in the ministry sections of the hundreds of sites I visited:

    For men….exactly what you describe. Ubiquitous man up, step up, we’ll help, or the ridiculous nods to masculinity, BBQ and Burgers, Classic cars, Camping and Fishing, Monday night football…..you name it, its either corrective or pandering to stereotypes.

    For women, “Be the princess you really are to God”, “Be encouraged in a discouraging world”

    The routine messages

    Men are addicted to porn, men are cheaters and beaters, men are workaholics
    Women are long suffering, woman’s job is never done, and my favorite, women’s self esteem is a stake because society (read:men) has placed absurd expectations with airbrushed magazines and such on you, beautiful sister you are beautiful as you are

    And you come here and act indignant that men are angry? These things i am writing are FACTS. They are not opinions, they are well read well researched facts as are the basis for the men’s comments. Otherwise it is tragic personal experience.

    Something as virtuous sounding as these mentoring programs can be offensive in the context here. While the programs are fine in a vacuum, to mention them here in an innocent “hey lets brainstorm how to help these boys” is offensive on many levels. 1) its nothing new, its the norm that these exist, so saying lets do this is appealing to the emotions of the person writing them as so often women are wont to do and 2) less of these would even be needed if the totality of secular and Christian experience wasnt stacked against men despite these programs

  69. Höllenhund

    The evidence is plentiful: any blog specifically oriented towards female readers will eventually end up blaming men for social ills in order to circle the wagons around the sistahood. It doesn’t matter if the blog in question is feminist or anti-feminist, and this doesn’t apply just to blogs. This is one of the iron rules of the feminine imperative.

    [ssm: Luckily for me, I have you to keep me on the straight and narrow.]

  70. Ton

    Perhaps instead of being emotional about “triads” you should put misbehaving women in check…… nope cannot do that, maybe only 5 women in a million will go against the herd.

    Those 5, worth their weight in gold to some man, I am sure. Sadly they are that rare, sadder still women do so little to improve themselves or their gender. Men really don’t want much from the ladies in their life, and the vast majority o women fail to deliver that small amount of respect, gratitude, and yes sex.

    ……. Women……

  71. Bee

    @FuzzieWuzzie,

    “The facade is beginning to crack. I use MSN as my home page and this was up. While Megyn Kelly tries to contain the message on Fox News, it’s still getting out.”

    Megyn Kelly is not a good example. She frivorced her first husband when you made her change from lawyer to news reader (presenter).

  72. TheShadowedKnight

    Amanda, men and women are born with little to no moral agency. Acting in a manner contrary to their immediate self interest in order to not harm another is not part of their perspective. They need to be taught that, by their parents, primarily the father. The difference between the sexes is that absent a systemic enforcement of those moral standards, women backslide much faster than men. Their own self interest comes to the fore and they act in accordance to that. The attitude of “training” a woman is therefore necessary in this society in order to enforce any sort of moral standard. Whether it is disturbing or unpleasant is of no consequence to its validity and truth. The consequences of the failure in this regard are plainly seen in the modern society.

    Lisa, the first step is to spread awareness of the truth, however distasteful it might seem at the beginning. Once more people know, steps can be taken to roll back many of the changes made to law and policy. This is the theoretical, conceptual stage of a societal revolution. Part of that revolution will involve putting women back in their place, and making men aware of their true nature. Is the decline over the past few decades not proof of the female propensity for short term self interest over all other considerations? What do we need, a total collapse and the object lesson of how women destroy if unchecked and the brutal treatment they will receive in an anarchic environment? That would be less pleasant than the righteous fury of a few men trying to fix the disaster made of their forefathers creation.

    To the both of you I have this to remind you. My ancestors have been in this country before it was this country, and they fought for it then. Service is a long tradition in my family, of which I am the latest. I enlisted to protect this country from all enemies, foreign and domestic. My issue is that *everyone* is my enemy. I learned that the greatest threat to this country is its own people. This necessitated a change in direction. I am leaving, and seeking my future elsewhere. Ton, also a military man, is doing the same, and he is not the only one that i have heard talk that way. Many others are also joining us, or just dropping out and abstaining from the work they would otherwise be doing. I am no victim; I define my own destiny. How long can you survive when the best men decide that they are better served by finding a new home? How long can you survive the hemorrhaging of your warriors, scholars, builders, and healers, the men that *make* civilization? You need us much more than we need you. That means we get to set our conditions, and if you do not meet them, we walk. Our legitimate complaints look like bitching and whining, or begging, sometimes, to the obtuse. Do not make that mistake. These are our demands, take them and prosper, or leave them and reign over the ruins of your failures. We are in a position of strength, no matter what it appears to be to you. Do not let a temporary state of distress confuse you as to who truly holds the power.

    The Shadowed Knight

  73. Frank

    Interesting technique and completely counter intuitive. Glad it’s working. Keep flipping wigs! Maybe there’s some application of Game theory going on here.

    Snark game? LOL

    Frank, you are incredible. How do you do it?

    To quote one of my favorite TV characters: it’s a gift… and a curse!

  74. Ton

    TSK, my family has been here that long to. It stopped being our nation in 1840, there abouts and there are nations which are very welcoming to founding stock, with good looking girls and decent gun laws.

    when my son is done with his stint in the Rangers, we’re out of here

    Righteous rant TSK, righteous

  75. Frank

    Amanda, the only thing I see wrong with your assertion of needing women to counsel women who have been victims of abuse and so on, is that the best ones to handle jobs like that are the ones who already have the experience of raising their families and now have the time and freedom for that kind of ministry. Young women though should not pursue careers like that. I think the Bible is clear, marriage and family comes first. Not because we should only be concerned with our selves and family to the exclusion of everyone else, but because the experience of building and raising a family together also gives both men and women the needed experience and maturity to run a church and counsel those younger than themselves. The idea that young women should counsel other women either the same age or even older is crazy, and I think we’ve become accustomed to that because we replaced the value of life experience with college degrees. Now one need only get a bachelor’s degree in christian counseling, and PRESTO, at the mere age of 21 he or she is expertly equipped to minister to the downtrodden from every walk of life!

    The solution isn’t obvious because there are no short term solutions. It starts first with restoring the biblical view of marriage, to remove the stigma that it somehow signifies the end of life rather than the beginning of it, to stop encouraging people to put it off until they “find themselves”, to proactively mentor and guide young singles so they choose and marry wisely, and then to encourage these new families to work together and minister to another within a church body, and from that we can build a new pool of church leaders and mature women who can effectively minister and nurture the afflicted.

  76. FuzzieWuzzie

    Bee,
    This instance was the first time seeing Megyn Kelly for me. When Lou Dobbs referred to her as “O dominant one”, had to figure that her feminist stance was well established. I hardly ever watch Fox news unless channel surfing in desperation.
    The point that I was trying to get across is that truth is finally stariting to be considered by main stream news.

  77. Amanda Lynn Larson

    Ton: What are your religious beliefs, if any? If you are a Christian, do you feel there are religious requirements given, such as spreading the gospel or doing good?

  78. Amanda Lynn Larson

    Some Guy: I’m a Christian, unmarried virgin. Before I worked at the DV agency, I worked with women -and- men struggling with addiction. My point is: you know nothing about me and you’re making convenient assumptions because you’re angry, and probably hurt. There are false accusations of abuse, and there are real ones. If you or others want to see change? Work with boys and men to tackle violence against women from a Christian perspective. Make a religious cause, rather than a secular one. You don’t like the shape it’s taken, because people without God are leading it? So, go do something. Take God into it, do good, and help. Otherwise nothing will change, and you’ll see more of what you don’t want.

    Those boys that need help? You don’t help them for -me-. You help them because they need you. Because they’ve done nothing to you. Because as much as you may dislike women, or random strangers on the internet, there’s boys and young men who aren’t at fault and are hurting. Not helping them to show me does what, exactly? You don’t have to, obviously. I’m just some stranger on the internet. It’s something to think about though, as they need you, it’d please God, and! Do you want feminists guiding these boys or men? :)

  79. Ton

    I believe in the Almighty God, Father and Son and that he has commanded His children to take dominion over the word

    I do not believe in the magical wishing granting BFF Jesus or that all men are called to do the same work. I put no real value in either of those for myself, others may and that’s fine by me. Mostly folks use doing good as a cop out from doing right and producing justices.

  80. Ton

    We know you spew the same feminist lines other feminists do, and that’s about all we need to know about you

  81. Ton

    The problem with your reasoning, such that it is, is those groups do not want masculine help, they want men to provide the same kind of help women do, in the same way as women

  82. Amanda Lynn Larson

    empathologism:But an unbiased look at the root cause, and having the courage to see it, will show you that divorce , ruined familism, is at the root of the majority of these problems.

    Yes. There -are- so many groundless divorces, and people jumping ship over foolishness. I’m not remotely arguing this. I do doubt it’s so very uniquely female, but otherwise? I’m on board. It’s terrible for children, for society, and we’re seeing the results all around us. I cannot control the sinful parents, mothers or fathers. That is not meant as a cop out, I’m just not sure what you think I can do. Ignoring the mother just hurts the children, who you can think of as ‘hostages’ in a sense. We could, as a society push for more programs and emphasis on the importance of fathers, which I’d love to see. I’d need help for this one though. ;)

    There’s not enough focus on boys, especially when they become teenagers and far too many end up in juvenile justice systems, mental health, or foster care. From there, it often leads to prison, addiction, and so on. Interventions are much more likely to work when it’s done in childhood, which is why I keep harping on this. You may (quite rightly even) dislike an individual mother. That doesn’t mean her son deserves the life he may have without help, with God. America’s boys are worth saving.

  83. Amanda Lynn Larson

    Ton: There’s homeless shelters, the Heart Gallery, and other local organizations you can’t have contacted in the past five minutes. If you don’t want to do outreach, that’s your choice. But to claim they all don’t want masculine help is a convenient cop out. Heck, helping a needy boy could be as simple as playing catch with a single mom’s son at church.

  84. Amanda Lynn Larson

    empathologism: Part 2- Sorry, was reading through one post at a time. Satan via Society eviscerates men and women in different ways, and loves to work them against each other. Women he tears apart via violence, self-esteem, and other methods. You very neatly summarized some of the damage done to men. Portrayed as predators or idiots, not treated with respect, and the target of a violence/anger. Boys are more likely to be physically abused, and (if I remember my statistics) have school trouble, etc, because they are boys. Encouraged by pop culture to be tough, masculine, ‘violent, then vilified for it. (Women the double standard crap too, but I’m focusing on men right now.) More likely to be caught up in addiction, commit suicide, and die of violent crime.

    Social services? There’s so much less, if anything on teaching men to be parents. We assume women might need help when it’s a new or struggling family, but men? Men are, a lot of the time, treated as interchangeable with the mom and baby being the family in child welfare. Etc, etc. I’m speaking society, rather than the church, and not even touching on racial violence or those experiences. I’m trying, probably badly, to acknowledge that men do get torn down, do get shoved into boxes, and that some awful things happen all the time.

    Do men need to be taught things? Yes and no. I think we need as a society or church -in general- need to do a better job of teaching our faith, parenting, consent, and those things and men should be included. But I don’t think men need a special class because men are oh so silly. Men do need to be praised, to hear that they’re awesome, valuable and worthy. Because you -are-.

    Lisa in Vermont: I think you hit the nail on the head. It’s too bad that a handful of angry commentators have turned most of the posts on this blog into tirades about how women are inherently evil and need to be put in their place b/c they’re incapable of making rational, moral decision.

    This is what i object to. Not the dislike of feminism. Not the desire for traditional marriage or different beliefs. The idea that 1) women have special magical sin that is conveniently more sinful than mine, 2) that all women can be put in a box as rational or not, and 3) I define reality.

    Love what your church is doing!

  85. empathologism

    I do doubt it’s so very uniquely female, but otherwise?

    1. You inserted the word “uniquely” when that never was stated nor inferred.

    2. Your doubt is not data. data is data, the overwhelming majority are, statistically…..counted and then dividing….75% minimum.

    You are not on board unless and until you get this right. It is the female tendency to make things safe, fair, balanced, 50/50, everyone equally guilty of innocent, THEN approach the problem after everyone’s feelings are placated and warm and fuzzy.

    Fail

    Any problem with a 75% rate of causation would have its solution focus on that. For example, smoking verses exposure to some exotic chemical for lung cancer. You would say “I doubt if it is uniquely smoking causing that”? Then go on and allocate equal resources to to smoking and to something that affects a fraction of the number of people.

    Things are the way they are, it doesnt matter how you feel about it

  86. Amanda Lynn Larson

    TheShadowedKnight: The difference between the sexes is that absent a systemic enforcement of those moral standards, women backslide much faster than men. Their own self interest comes to the fore and they act in accordance to that. The attitude of “training” a woman is therefore necessary in this society in order to enforce any sort of moral standard.

    Your evidence for this is…the Biblical behavior of men vs. women? Studies with science backing them? What exactly? Do you have a theory of why secular men acting in their own self-interest in political or criminal venues is somehow lesser self-interest?

    Live or die, I’ll do it following God. I see no mention in your post about spreading the gospel, doing His will, ministering to the poor, or commands I can find in countless verses . Should I place my survival above doing the work I am commanded to do? Do what you must, that’s between you and God, and it’s not my business. I’m not afraid and it isn’t you who I answer to.

  87. empathologism

    Women he tears apart via violence, self-esteem, and other methods

    More violence is perpetrated on men, by a lot. You even say as much about one type of viiolence.

    Self esteem issues are internal, not foisted on women from external forces, or if they are those forces are from other women. Low self esteem is a plague among Christian women. Its a sin of pride flipped upside down, so, that is yet another thing the church does wrong by pandering to it instead of correcting it.

    You are saying the same things that the church and every-one-elsee is saying. And it is not working despite being doubled down on for decades. We rererererererererererere commit to what you are saying almost monthly in most churches while women rub circles on mens backs (today in church Id have paid to have my phone in there as I watched it happening, the circles, in real time. id have posted a vid)

  88. empathologism

    And amen to Frank

    The solution isn’t obvious because there are no short term solutions. It starts first with restoring the biblical view of marriage, to remove the stigma that it somehow signifies the end of life rather than the beginning of it, to stop encouraging people to put it off until they “find themselves”, to proactively mentor and guide young singles so they choose and marry wisely, and then to encourage these new families to work together and minister to another within a church body, and from that we can build a new pool of church leaders and mature women who can effectively minister and nurture the afflicted.

    Its not that the present victims dont need or desrve help. its that prevention will lower the next generations victims. But prevention takes us to a place most men wont go, that is saying the kinds of things I am saying TO women from the pulpit, and as a general included (not only…..just included) thing in normal discourse like this.

    Women are held accountable to only one thing by the church. You will find that described here:

    http://www.drurywriting.com/keith/Do.Women.sin.htm

    I use that link a lot, it shows that self esteem is perceived as the thing women need to be held to account about. Think about that. Your biggest wrongdoing is not seeing yourself in a properly good enough image….think on that. This is why coming here, where the things not being said anywhere else, and trying to make a nice un-threatening balanced approached will draw sharp rebuke every time its tried.

  89. Ton

    Of course those places don’t want masculine help, they don’t want men holding them accountable and making them earn help, they want free labor to hand out temporary nurturing

    You are so lost in your feminism you simply don’t understand the difference between what men do and what women do.

  90. Amanda Lynn Larson

    empathologism: My apologies. I’ve been told on other blogs that by being female I have a unique selfishness, so I was a bit leery of that one and what the implications might be. I don’t have every study I read memorized, I do read and research in the attempt to know what I’m talking about.

    Self-esteem issues are contributed to by outside forces. After TV was introduced to Samoa, eating disorders skyrocketed, and that’s just one example. There are studies on media representation and effects, if you care for research. -How the church responds- is another issue. Encouraging someone is Biblical, pandering is not. There are healthy ways to respond, including limiting media access or fighting bullying.

    I haven’t looked up divorce statistics, so I shall concede the point. And yes, I do tend to like happy and fuzzy, I admit it.

    You are saying the same things that the church and every-one-elsee is saying. And it is not working despite being doubled down on for decades.

    What do you think the solutions are? I’m not being sarcastic, I’m serious.

  91. Amanda Lynn Larson

    Frank: A bit late for me there (re: young women and counseling), but I can’t deny experienced women would be excellent in these positions and have so much to offer other women. It’s a very valid point. A pity the working world often discriminates against older women.

    The solution isn’t obvious because there are no short term solutions. It starts first with restoring the biblical view of marriage, to remove the stigma that it somehow signifies the end of life rather than the beginning of it, to stop encouraging people to put it off until they “find themselves”, to proactively mentor and guide young singles so they choose and marry wisely, and then to encourage these new families to work together and minister to another within a church body, and from that we can build a new pool of church leaders and mature women who can effectively minister and nurture the afflicted.

    Beautifully put. I think I’m a fan. :)

  92. Amanda Lynn Larson

    infowarrior1: Oh yes, I believe I’ve read that. Women are very capable of being violent, and any violence against men should be taken seriously. I wish it was taken more seriously. I don’t like that society considers it cute or harmless. It’s why DV is an everybody issue.

  93. Ton

    The day you want a man to punch a junkie in the face every time he reaches for a crack pipe I’m there. If you want me to waste my time doing the same failed shit that has been tired million of time, piss off.

    The masculine way vs the feminine way. One way use to work, the new way….not so much.

  94. empathologism

    I don’t know the solution because we already know there is not one, in a wider sense. That’s foretold and locked in.

    But to impact the lives of children, simple, preach to and at women the exact same way as they do men. Boldly, unequivocally, no tongue in cheek jokes and self effacing from the pulpit. until then the rest is irrelevant for the church as 60% (women attend more) of the folks are left unchallenged and not held accountable to any firm standards. This goes for men as well in how we handle things. if we go mealy mouthed like TH above, it breeds the same result.

    Have you ever noticed how Paul corrected the churches he wrote to? Boldly, plainly, and then, further digging shows he let that sit with the men to teach and even “enforce”. Today, ANY topic a church is plainly admonished for is something easy, any topic a gender is admonished for is a man sin (see the link I offered)

    Stigma still works among believers. There are no stigmas on women regarding relational issues. mention that Mr and Mrs Smith were divorcing to a casual group in the lobby, then set your watch by the first comment being “what did HE do, do you suppose?”

  95. Frank

    Beautifully put. I think I’m a fan. :)

    If you want I’ll add you to my growing fan list Among the perks are occasional discounts on beef jerky and a “Frank is Awesome” pin button.

  96. Amanda Lynn Larson

    empathologism: I agree. I like Joyce Meyer, I read and have read my Bible, and recall Jesus saying things like the Pharisees were white washed tombs. I’m on board with that and having standards. I’d have to reread TH’s post before I comment on that, so I’m holding off there.

    Re: Your link. When I mentioned self-esteem, that is not remotely what I meant. I struggled with self hatred to the level where I wanted to (and did) hurt and destroy myself. So when I say ‘self-esteem issues’, it’s not code for something cute and cuddly. Or not calling people out on their sin. It’s communicating that you have value, you are loved, and you matter to God. Incidentally, one of the reasons people stay in abusive relationships (I’m talking about clear cut, serious injuries, no questions about it ones), is that they come to believe they are worthless, they deserve to be hurt, and have no value- like abused children.

    If it’s just a matter of ‘you should never feel bad or face your sin: people should deal.

    I would like to add that I think love and ministry needs to be mixed with correction. We can preach at people until we’re blue, and be right. If they don’t feel we care, it means little at least when we’re reaching the lost. Jesus managed to do both, and while I’m not nearly as brave, I am trying. -_-

  97. FuzzieWuzzie

    Frank,
    I think Amanda likes you. I don’t think it was the beef jerky. shhh…

  98. TheShadowedKnight

    ALL, a perfect example of the tendency of women to abandon their moral positions is actually our hostess. SSM looked into the Facebook censorship affair and decided that she was on board with letting Feminism censor any speech that they see fit because of some pictures of hurt women. It took a lot of discussion and explanation to get her to realize that she was giving more power to the people who have brought us all to this point. An emotional response to a serious issue, and she was ready to give them whatever they wanted because she was scared, and this is a woman who makes a hobby of fighting against Feminism.

    Women are self centered because of the investment they are forced to make in reproduction. It is in their interest to pick the best possible father for their children, and that is their first priority. When freed of societal constraints and medical repercussions on sexual activity, the result… well, look around you and see how well that went. They have no interest in long term effects of poor choices. Keep in mind that in less than a century we went from a moral and religious society to one that would make the Roman Emperors cringe in disgust with the introduction of women’s liberation. Those women abandoned their beliefs for a better biological opportunity as soon as society turned its back, foolishly trusting in their better nature. Without a dominating force in their lives holding them to their obligations, they went wild, raising all sorts of hells and then cried out for rescue when the devils they invited in decided to stay.

    As far as criminals and politicians, they are leeches and mites sucking on the society they infest. Women unbound are a plague, boils, fever, and finally, death. Criminals and politicians have been around since the Englishman first landed, yet we survived. Feminism took about 65-75 years to put this country in the dirt. Do the math.

    Some are using them for the only thing they are good for; sexual diversions. Others want no part of them. Still more are trying to find the few decent ones left. The last few are the men with a new vision, a different dream. We will go and make a new world, one free of your depravity and iniquity. As we take our leave, you will see the result of laughing in the face of God. The shining light will burn a baleful light of warning, broadcasting a warning instead of the hope it once held. The peace purchased at such a cost will fade, and then the world will ignite.

    The men you and your ilk so foolishly threw aside will build anew, and our works will be a testament to your failure. Our children will be the witnesses to your demise. You will have no one to blame, but you will anyway, because it is not your way to seek responsibility.

    The Shadowed Knight

  99. Amanda Lynn Larson

    The Shadowed Knight: Okay. So one = all women. One rapist = all men? Is that how we are defining reality now? Or are people individuals with individual weaknesses, strengths, and personalities? I’d really like to think that the individual choices of some men to be violent are not reflective of men as a whole, yet you seem ready to paint the choices of some women to be selfish as the defining trait of women as a whole.

    Scripture speaks of humanity as selfish. It also gives countless examples of men -also- being greedy, selfish, or evil. It is a human trait, not a female trait. In any case, you can’t control women. You can control yourself. Whether you do something productive with that is your choice.

  100. Anonymoose

    The disingenuous Amanda Lynn Larson has admitted to being part of the Domestic Violence Industry, which is a subsidiary of the Divorce Industry, so talking with her is a waste of time, at best.

    A good place to start learning about people like her is this interview with Erin Pizzey, the the woman who founded the first nationally and internationally recognized women’s shelter (or “refuge”) in London: http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/domestic-violence-industry/refuting-40-years-of-lies-about-violence/

    From the replies to Amanda, it appears that some of you may be unaware of the thorough refutations that are available, with links and references, at sites like www[]avoiceformen[]com, www[]angryharry[]com, Community of the Wrongly Accused (in the sidebar here, with thousands of earlier articles available at its previous site falserapesociety[]blogspot[]com), and in the blogrolls of these sites.

    If Amanda’s intent was actually to get unrelated men to mentor boys whose untrustworthy mothers had removed their fathers, she should start by fighting to change the current definition of a pedophile, which is “a man who plays chess in a park that allows children”.

  101. FuzzieWuzzie

    Amanda,
    Anonymoose has a good idea. If you don’t know the Erin Pizzey story, you’ll be shocked.
    Strap yourself in.

  102. empathologism

    If you like Joyce Meyer you are already far off track.

    You make statements like ministry should have both encouragement and admonition. Its true, and its a platitude at the same time. Its safe. Key….its safe. Its the Christian version of political correctness. The see saw is pressed all the ay down on one side. the male corrective side. There is no room underneath the male seat for encouragement to be pressing upwards. the female seat is all the way up. the way to balance that tilted see saw is not to apply equal measures of everything…..UNTIL the seats are leveled. What IS matters. And thats what is. That’s why though your intent is obviously heart felt and of good report, it is at the same time lacking efficacy.

    One needn’t be an angry man to recommend strong meds for women. one need only see the church as it IS. I suspect at 50 I’m quite a bit older than you. I also suspect Ive traded in these ideas quite a bit longer regardless of age. You need to be teachable on this and not stuck in conventional wisdom. Telling you these things is like telling a fish that it is wet. The fish has lived in water its whole life, and doesn’t no what not-wet even means. I’m not disagreeing with what you say so much as saying its true but utterly lacking in utility. If you look around the links on these blogs you will see that there is a dust up among similar minded people as we speak about what women bring when they arrive in discourse or activism for these ideals. You are illustrating perfectly the problem. Its not that you are dense, or bad, or even wrong. Its that you don’t want to step outside the narrative because conventional wisdom is the most comfy of chairs.

  103. TheShadowedKnight

    ALL, you lack an understanding of many of the core concepts that the androsphere uses as common knowledge. So much of what you think you know is a lie taught to you as a manner of control. I will write up a post to explain this, and communicate the reality of the situation. From the false perspective you have, we are indeed wrong; dangerously so, in fact. What needs correction is your point of view, not our opinions.

    The Shadowed Knight.

  104. Anonymoose

    @ Amanda Lynn Larson

    “Anonymoose- Let me ask you this. Are there abusive women? Do men lie if they say their wives or girlfriends are abusive? Do they ever get physical?”

    I know what you are.

    I have given the people here links to sites where your type of bullshit implications, which pretend to impartiality, have been analyzed and refuted in excruciating detail.

    You are not worthy of any more of my time.

  105. FuzzieWuzzie

    Amanda,
    Seriously, use the link that Anonymoose provided and watch the video. You can’t help but profit form it. Erin Pizzey is a pioneer in your field. She’s still as sharp as a tack and a happy grandmother to boot.

  106. Amanda Lynn Larson

    Anonymoose: That would be preferable, as you were busy making assumptions and insulting strangers on the internet due to said wrong assumptions. I’m rather sure your time could be better spent doing awesome and productive things elsewhere.

  107. Amanda Lynn Larson

    empathologism: What’s wrong with Joyce Meyer? I’m being serious, not trying to troll you. She talks about submitting to your husband and radical obedience to God, at least in the handful of sermons I’ve got this week. I don’t listen daily, so I certainly could have missed something.

    Re: safety- Things have gotten watered down and we’re seeing far less of John the Baptist and far more of ‘everyone’s right, there’s a few ways to heaven, and of course you can live with your boyfriend/girlfriend before marriage!’. No argument there. I’m not sure how I’m coming across, but I DON’T WANT men to be torn down, insulted, emasculated, etc. I’m not here to secretly do it, it’s not a real life goal, it’s not a church goal. Please, please, please don’t take what I’m saying that way, it’s not the intent. I don’t want to dominate men, I just don’t want to be crushed, degraded (you are especially sinful and selfish because you were born female, wench. But it’s not personal! ). If I get married, I’d even like the man to be the leader (I definitely shouldn’t in charge of finances. ;) ).

    I’ll aim for teachable. I don’t mind watching videos or reading articles. I’m not afraid of new ideas. I’m not as sure about the lacking in utility piece. I’m sure in some senses its true. In others, I suspect we’d probably just agree to disagree, as I think you and your’s have the right to live as you see fit and I respect that. I may have failed in it, but it hasn’t been my intent to tell you how to be in your marriage if you have one, and so on.

    The one thing that is concerning is how people are so eager to call me on bias, yet blind to their own. It’s true that to get the full picture I need to talk to men, see the abuses of the system, and get information from all sides. The same is true of men though. You don’t have the full story if you don’t talk to actual women that have been raped, abused, or hurt. One article, one video or one third hand story doesn’t count. The issue, like everything else, isn’t nearly as neat and tidy as women are bad and men are good or vice versa. Sinful people without God leave a lot of wreckage in their wake.

  108. Thankful Husband

    Amanda,
    You sound like a nice gal who is trying to understand & live for Christ…here’s what you need to understand. I am an enormous white male who believes Jesus Christ is Lord and believes in patriarchy. I have a wife that is submissive and respectful. She homeschools and cooks from scratch. In my mid thirties I have built a successful home business with my own two hands that I own & my home outright. I pack a pistol (legally). I live in the middle of nowhere and am my own mechanic, plumber, electrician, doctor and rancher. I vote liberterian when possible, fiscal conservative when not. I am by their own definition an alpha male who lives life on my terms (although I like to think that I am living them by Christ’s terms). And yet by these gentlemen I am considered a pansy and mealy mouthed because I suggest that a man should live a godly live and treat his wife tenderly, lovingly, firmly and be a sacrificial leader, putting her first only after Christ. To love her as Christ loved the church. I am considered that because I suggest that violence against women is not something to joke about and to take our own responsiblities and sin first and foremost & that by doing so our women are much more likely to hold up their end of the deal. Even though I state a wife should submit regardless of what the man is doing (unless of course he is asking her to sin).

    While from your emails I do think you don’t completely understand the truth of God’s family design…I think you are truly searching and trying to figure that out and I commend you for that and staying pure before marriage. Bottom line…you aren’t going to convince these men. They hate everything you stand for and some of them probably hate you. Keep in your bible…you are right to use that as your guide and don’t let the modern world interpret it for you. God bless you. Walk with Him and keep serving Him alone. Your ideas of men serving is scriptural…thank you.

  109. Amanda Lynn Larson

    ThankfulHusband: I learned a while back to not expect too much from online debates. I aim for having points considered, and ending a cordial note. If people end up agreeing with me? It’s awesome, but I don’t expect it necessarily. I appreciate the warning though. I also realized people here were/are more conservative than I am, so I’m trying hard to not push an agenda and pick one or two battles that I feel are backed by scripture (i.e. women not being more sinful), though I did end up having a bit of a DV tangent. I hope/don’t think men working with boys is a feminist thing, as much as generally awesome.

    I’m sorry you’ve been insulted and that respectful disagreement wasn’t possible. I realized early on that traditional marriage by the standards here isn’t for me (Your definition definitely comes closer), but what consenting adults agree on isn’t my business and I wish the you and your wife (and any other couple) all the best. It’s always nice to hear about strong Christian marriages. :)

    Thank you. I am trying to serve God well, though some days go better than others. I’m not real concerns if random strangers on the internet hate me, though it seems rather sad for them. That’s a lot of anger to have. Thank you, I appreciate the thoughts and plan to. I don’t like the modern world’s results, so I definitely can’t use it’s wisdom.

  110. Anonymoose

    If any of you guys want to see every possible non-religious permutation of the “logical arguments” of the oh-so-clever Amanda (“Let me ask you this. Are there abusive women? Do men lie if they say their wives or girlfriends are abusive? Do they ever get physical?”) and her Sisters-in-Borg, take a look at The Spearhead from the beginning: http://www.the-spearhead.com/2009/09/

    I didn’t include it earlier, because it is a harder read, since most of the really interesting stuff is in the comments. Lately it has changed, but in the beginning, many of the top writers were contributing articles, and it was quite a free for all.

  111. Sigyn

    Amanda, now that I have time to explain myself better, I’ll do so:

    The reason Vox’s blogs were mentioned as “rough” compared to here is because the Dread Ilk (regular commenters) are hardcore logical, highly masculine, and not very tolerant of mind games or ignorance. You go there with an open mind and a teachable attitude and you’ll be treated nice and educated thoroughly (well, by legitimate Ilk); you walk in trying to pull a fast one and they’ll fry you before you can say “zap”.

    Consider a visit to Vox Popoli if you’re really up to learning where you’re off in left field. It’s a rough and tumble place, but they’re not bad folks, mostly. You just have to learn the ropes, and you definitely learn not to take things personally.

  112. Jessica

    @TheShadowedKnight

    “Women are self centered because of the investment they are forced to make in reproduction. It is in their interest to pick the best possible father for their children, and that is their first priority.”

    This is very interesting! I am always fascinated by the primal side of men and women. This gave me something to chew on. :)

  113. Novaseeker

    that by doing so our women are much more likely to hold up their end of the deal.

    This is where you err, and where the church generally errs. This is lock, stock and barrel the church’s approach to these issues: man up, be better men, and women will follow along. Bullshit. It doesn’t work that way. I have seen it in my own former marriage and in many other marriages that didn’t work. It only works with a very certain type of woman, a type who is quite rare even in the church. Behaving well and righteously as a man is not some kind of spiritual (or other) magic wand, and in the eyes of a large percentage of even Christian women, is something to be used against men as power leverage in the marital power struggle or scoreboard or whatever else you want to call it. You see, TH, we’ve all heard your brand of bullshit before. It’s what is preached from the pulpits to no end. It’s the church’s solution to what ails Christian marriages. And. It. Doesn’t. Work.

    What does work? Picking a wife extremely carefully (by far the most critical element, because the vast majority of Christian women are simply not suited, regardless of how the man is behaving), and then BOTH (1) living a righteous life as a man and (2) learning psychology and deploying methods that defuse her attempts to increase her relationship power at your expense over time. That works. The stuff you’re preaching doesn’t, in terms of influencing female behavior, with the overwhelming majority of Christian women.

  114. empathologism

    pick one or two battles that I feel are backed by scripture (i.e. women not being more sinful), though I did end up having a bit of a DV tangent.

    explain

  115. Thankful Husband

    Nova,
    I said it “increases” the odds of the wife doing her part of the deal. Or makes it easier. I did not say it guarantuee’s success. I also stated that a woman should do it regardless. Do you then think it makes no difference what you do? That’s absolutely insane! So all of you who have called my line BS, may I ask? Do you find it easier to do your job when your wife does her’s? Why do you not think it works the same for her? Your logic does not even come close to making sense, nor does it line up with scripture (you sow what you reap)? I did not say supplicate her. I also said be firm and manly when needed. It amazes me how all you guys think you have to be some kind of hard ass to keep her in line.

    I find it funny that every single man that has called my line BS is divorced, single or in a bad marriage. Is there just a small chance you yourself have not or had not figured out what your end of the deal exactly looked like? Of course your wife’s sinful behavior played a part to large part. Scripture clearly teaches us God will bless our obedience, why do you not think this carries over to our marriages? Is there times He chooses not to, yes. Wives have free will. But if you think you have a better chance of your wife being submissive by being a bad christian or a mediocre christian…wow, you say women have a tough time with logic.

    I find a great many women that are trying to live out godly lives. Are there a lot that are not…you bet. But I find the same to be true for men.

  116. Lisa in Vermont

    The Shadowed Knight,

    I learned that the greatest threat to this country is its own people. This necessitated a change in direction. I am leaving, and seeking my future elsewhere. Ton, also a military man, is
    doing the same, and he is not the only one that i have heard talk that way. Many others are also joining us, or just dropping out and abstaining from the work they would otherwise be doing. I am no victim; I define my own destiny. How long can you survive when the best men decide that they are better served by finding a new home? How long can you survive the hemorrhaging of your warriors, scholars, builders, and healers, the men that *make* civilization? You need us much more than we need you.

    No, I don’t need male chauvinists who just can’t understand that not all women are alike. Amanda tried her best to explain this to you, but it was like trying to explain the pythagorean theorem to a two year old. No sir indeed. There are plenty of soldiers, scholars, builders, physicians and innovators in the U.S. who don’t despise womankind.

    Best wishes on your big adventure. Don’t let the door hit your backside on the way out.

  117. Novaseeker

    Do you then think it makes no difference what you do?

    You just don’t read, do you. Others have said it above. Are you incapable of reading, or are you just intentionally disrespectful of other people’s time?

    I ask because I specifically wrote this:

    What does work? Picking a wife extremely carefully (by far the most critical element, because the vast majority of Christian women are simply not suited, regardless of how the man is behaving), and then BOTH (1) living a righteous life as a man and (2) learning psychology and deploying methods that defuse her attempts to increase her relationship power at your expense over time. That works.

    You need both. Simply acting righteously, in and of itself, is not sufficient.

  118. Deep Strength

    Ah, I finally figured out the problem.

    If what TH is saying is true then he’s probably a natural alpha male. Natural alpha men cannot understand the plight of the beta male because they have never had any trouble interacting with women.

    They never really see the dark side of women, the nuclear rejections, the shit / fitness tests, the rebellion that women naturally have for most men. Most women are not attracted to the majority of men.

    It’s like Joshua Harris’ I Kissed Dating Goodbye all over again… of course, he didn’t have to date. All of the women coming running to you and you have your pick. The majority of men are left out in the cold in their singleness, or horrors of horrors if they get married that they get frivorced.

    Of course, he’s going to say that loving her will make it easier for her to submit because women will naturally submit to the alpha when they know he loves her. That’s a woman’s optimal outcome — to have an alpha man love her. When a beta man does that, he gets fitness tested and frivorced.

    That’s pretty much why you guys can’t get through to him, and why he doesn’t really understand what any of us are saying.

  119. Thankful Husband

    Nova,
    This is where we disagree then, on your #2, because I believe that those tricks and methods you speak of are encompassed in being a godly man. I believe I truly godly man who uses all of scripture and not just part of it (like the feminists try to do) doesn’t have to take psych 101 or read the manosphere to learn methods to have a wife that is submissive. What you call acting righteously must mean just to not sin, or doing the best you can as a man. Where what I call acting righteously means not sinning and acting right…as in having the right behavior. Your #2 I found in my bible by being a man of god. Still doesn’t guarantuee success but it does make it much, much easier for her to do her end of the deal.

    You also make the assumption that every woman is on a power trip to “increase her power”…that’s a big assumption. If she is also trying to walk with God and using scripture as her guide that will be a false assumption much of the time.

    The low opinions many of you have of woman makes me wonder why you desire one at all. My wife is a treasure…it saddens me you can’t know what a real godly woman is like.

  120. Thankful Husband

    @ Deep Strength
    Maybe so…but other than my natural size I was not blessed with any natural gifts…and even that came late in life and with a lot of work. I’m above average in smarts, but not elite. I’m probably slightly above average in looks, nowadays, was maybe a little higher on the charts when I was younger. If I have a gift it is I refuse to be out worked our out hearted (give up) and those options are available to every man. Am I an alpha…yes. But only because I applied scripture to my life and worked my ass off…any man can do that. There are no tricks or psychology needed. It’s trying so bad it hurts and refusing to lose. I meet regularly with some of the most powerful and richest men in the world..very few of them are naturals. Half of them I wonder how they ended up where they did…but they all have one thing in common- work ethic. You combine that with scripture and you’ll either end up being martyred or an alpha or both.

  121. Novaseeker

    No, TH. You are making assumptions and characterizing things I have said in a way that is self-serving to points you are trying to make. My #1 encompasses not what you have wrongly assumed it does (not based on anything I actually wrote, but what you chose to read into what I wrote based on … nothing but what is between your own ears), but rather what you have broken down into different buckets — and, taking all of that together, it is still not sufficient with most women. Just not so. THAT is our disagreement. The number of women you are talking about who are not as I have described is vanishingly small, even in the churches. If you disagree with me on that then, well, that’s our second disagreement.

    [ssm: Novaseeker, would you mind if sent you a brief email? I would like your opinion on something.]

  122. Deep Strength

    TH,

    While looks, athleticism, money, and status have some to do with attraction in women it’s mostly going to about the Power (e.g. your frame, personality, and how you interact with the world)

    1. If you have the personality of an alpha then women will make themselves submissive to you. That’s why you alone can focus on living as the Bible commands.
    2. If you don’t then you have endless problems with women, even if you do everything that happens as the Bible commands.

    You are the former, most men on this blog is the latter.

    Your methods will not work for most of the men here. That’s what everyone has been trying to tell you. You can’t understand it because relationships with women come easy to you.

    That’s precisely why the manosphere exists because most men are betas. That’s why you don’t see much utility in it, while every other man here has significantly improved their relationships with women in dating, marriage, or post divorce by not catering to women at all.

  123. Anon

    Admittedly only a quick glance, but I didn’t see anything in the “heart gallery” website to demonstrate that it is pro-traditional family (read: pro patriarchical, male head of household).

    [ssm: Which website are you referring to?]

  124. Anon

    Sorry, SSM I realized I was responding to a tiny comment, which was in response to mine way up thread (between me an Amanda).

    She argues that [educated] men need to get Involved as mentors within existing institutions.

    I then respond by pointing out that there are no such traditional institutions , citing the “gay boy scouts” as the latest example

    She directs to me an organization that I go look up. I don’t see where it has any room for a red pill guy to inject himself.

    It’s called heart gallery

  125. Thankful Husband

    Deep Strength,
    I understand what you are saying and I agree that there are different grades of men…and maybe this is easy for me to say but I have interacted with all grades of men and I could count on one hand the ones that were not self made (with God’s help of course). That is what I am trying to get through. Yes, there is not a room I walk into where I am not asked for my opinion and it is the one used 95% of the time…but that came with one hell of a lot of work, one hell of of a lot of failures and picking myself back up again and refusing to lose. What I am saying is I meet with alpha’s almost everyday (and their wives) and very few did not work to become an alpha. It’s hard work and it’s scripture to keep you on the straight and narrow and God’s grace when you fall down because we all do. Alpha’s and beta’s.

    So my advice boils down to this…if you truly follow scripture most men will become enough alpha that it will truly be easier for her to submit. How’s that?

  126. Anon

    SSM– as you already know my entire story, please note how significant the following is:

    My wife has begun to read your site. Email if you are interested in more.

    [ssm: Emailing you now; I meant to email you before anyway, but I got busy.]

  127. Amanda Lynn Larson

    Anonymoose: I thought I wasn’t worth your time. I guess I’m flattered. I should clarify that people don’t fit neatly in a box (such as feminists, women, people that may believe in pieces of feminism) and I have other things, such as my religion that guide my beliefs, which complicate your comparison. Thanks for the interesting link though.

  128. Ton

    I have had problems with women during exactly one period of my life; when I was following Christain advice and doing as TH recommends. I was a little of my game when I began dating after the divorce
    ( way to serious and the rest of the Chrsstain advice) but returned to my natural state & have enjoyed a moderate level of success since. The key is ignoring 99.9% of what women and Chrstains say about dating and the like

  129. Amanda Lynn Larson

    Sigyn: I’m also lagging as I get ready to walk the big dogs and do household things, as well as post. I don’t do mind games. I find them to be a waste of time, so I sympathize there. I’m mildly concerned that this translates to ‘if you don’t agree, we bite your head off’, but I may take look later as time permits. I aim for teachable, it just doesn’t mind I end up agreeing with everything in the end. At the moment, I’m still trying to keep up with this thread, and have the Erin Pizzey video to watch as I agreed to.

  130. sunshinemary

    I have reason to believe that Thankful Husband may be the same person who posted here about twenty minutes ago, Revenge Weapon. RW attempted to slide one past me by leaving a partial comment in order to get his one approved comment in so that he could unleash. Unfortunately for him, I left him in moderation because he tripped my something’s-not-right-here trigger. Sure enough, five minutes later a completely insane obscenity and filth-laced tirade was forthcoming from RW.

    I did a little more nosing around and, even though the IP addresses are not the same, TH and RW are both posting from the exact same small town in the same state. I can’t say for sure that they are the same person. Perhaps they aren’t. But given TH’s increasingly strange tirades and in light of his having been now banned at Cane Caldo’s, that’s enough for me to show him the door. Those who wish to continue to engage with him will have to do so elsewhere. Thanks for understanding.

    On a side note: I have been under relentless troll attacks. For now, I will be leaving newcomers in moderation for awhile until I can see who I’m really dealing with. Also, anyone who posts under multiple handles and has discussions with themselves (yes, that has happened) without first discussing that with me by email will also be placed into moderation.

    Longtime commenters will be unaffected.

  131. Amanda Lynn Larson

    empathologism: I do appreciate you admitting your bias.

    Re: picking battles- Simple. You guys aren’t interested in being preached at or ‘fixed’. So I’m not going to go there or come post things I know people will disagree with/get offended by. When I chose to respond to something, I made sure it was something it was a ‘battle’ worth picking. For example, women being extra sinful/selfish touches on my worth as a human being and child of God.

    The training your wife one was also one that (for me) touched on human dignity. It wasn’t that a man asked his wife to be respectful or had the expectations that she’d treat him with respect and love. Those are awesome. I just want to be put in a different, higher category than we have for house training a dog.

    The DV bit was a tangent, and not one I meant to sidetrack the thread into, as I was pretty sure it was not be popular.

  132. Amanda Lynn Larson

    Thankful Husband: I can say that that I would be far more likely to listen to and go near you than some others that have commented. Breaking someone down to make them obey and stay is a POW/prison tactic, I can’t believe it’s the guideline for a Godly marriage.

  133. Thankful Husband

    SSM,
    I am not the fellow you speak of. My town is very small so that might be hard to believe but I give you my word that is not me. I would not send obscenity’s out.

    I am not sure though how you would classify me as increasingly strange tirades though? If you’d answer that I’d appreciate it. CC did ban me but it was because I did not agree with. I did not call him any names but when he called me uneducated and of low intelligence I did send him sort of a resume listing my education. Nothing obscene in the least. The worst thing I said to him was that he made absolutely no sense. You can go there and read by posts if you disagree with my assertion. The only post that is not shown is the one where I gave my resume. It was rated G, PG at worst.

    I did not know you could get banned for not agreeing. I live on the top of a mountain and only have satelite internet…couldn’t list from another IP if I wanted (nor am I computer literate enough to do so, heck I just figured out yesterday you could see my business name and email when clicking on my name…and it took me an hour to change that).

    Sorry, it’s not ne. I give you my word.

  134. Amanda Lynn Larson

    sunshinemary: ..I’m so sorry you’re dealing with crap. i obviously haven’t posted anything profane, but please tell me if I offend you. It is your blog and I can certainly tone things down or otherwise.

  135. Amanda Lynn Larson

    Anon: I was thinking of one-on-one mentoring options with boys, if that is any clearer? There’s also big brother/big sister, and other organizations for inner city or other youth that desperately need men.

  136. sunshinemary

    @ TH
    OK, if you say you are not that person, then fine. Obviously even in a small town there can be two people who read my blog. But can you appreciate how that might raise flags for me?

    TH, it’s not that you disagree with people that has made me put you into moderation. It’s that you appear to be disingenuous. You don’t seem to be reading what people write. And you are making these wild assertions about me and my blog as well; I gave you a chance to point out the “boot to the throat” comment which you accused one of my commenters of making but you did not do so. You also accused me of unscriptural teaching, and when I humbly asked you to point it out to me so that I could correct it if necessary, you did not.

    You have repeatedly accused my commenters of not being concerned for the cause of Christ, you imply that all my commenters are sexually licentious (which is utterly untrue), you write that your wife has been crazed and attempted to kill you on more than one occasion but also that she is a far superior wife to any man’s wife here. It’s laughable. You get everyone upset but to no purpose. You are not learning anything, we are not learning anything, everyone is vaguely upset, and no good is coming of this. I’m leaving you in moderation and asking you not to post here again. Thank you.

  137. FuzzieWuzzie

    SSM,
    No doubt that you’re under attack and you see more than we do.
    You do represent the crossroads of interest for a lot of parties.
    I’ll be quiet now and go back to watching Boudicca so i cah pass tomorrow’s quiz’

    [ssm: LOL, thanks Fuzzie.]

  138. Chris

    SSM: you have hit the trollettes hard. They will be spamming you like crazy. Which is fairly common — according to my webhost I do about 6 GB of traffic a month, but only 300 — 400 MB is aimed at my blogs. The rest is a pile of commentators.

    At present, I have antispam bee filtering everything (with project honeypot switched on) — and I still have spam going that I have to delete.

    But I don’t get abuse. TKI was doxed out of existence, after one post that (correctly) linked tattoos with skanky behaviour. It may be that I’m a kiwi. It may be that my US hosting service is just so gosh darn good. It may be that I am older. It’s not that I am any nicer than half the Christian men blogging.

    But it may be that I’m male, and the insults and profanity are simply… boring. ANyways, prayers for you and your man and keep up the good work.

    [ssm: Thanks Chris! By the way, I have tried to comment on your site several times recently and your spam filter always deletes my comments. I swear I am not trying to sell you pr0n videos, vicodin, or fake Coach handbags! :) But yeah, traffic has been heavy around here and I've had to do an absurd amount of comment management. Bah.]

  139. Deep Strength

    if you truly follow scripture most men will become enough alpha that it will truly be easier for her to submit

    No, we already went over this….. I guess we’ll agree to disagree.

  140. Chris

    SSM: the correct manner to use the Banhammer is without warning and with great finality.
    Ban ‘em. Ban their emails and IP addresses. They will have to wait for their ISP to assign them new ones (which takes at least 24 hours) to get back.

  141. Cane Caldo

    @SSM

    For the record: I unbanned TH a little while ago, per Elspeth’s suggestion. I’ll leave it to TH and others to decide if it was good for him.

    You may have a unique perspective on the efficacy of this… Ha.

    [ssm: Ha, well. Women are properly chastened by such things but men rarely are in my experience. Thanks for stopping by, Cane.]

  142. Thankful Husband

    SSM,
    Thanks for believing me. I did just want to follow thru with this thread and I’m going to quit posting anyway but wanted to answer the questions and criticisms posted to me…so thank you for allowing me to do that.

    If you want to ban me tomorrow…heck, I’d appreciate it! This site takes up too much of my time! But thank you for letting me finish what I started…if you have time and interest though I would love to hear how my tirades were strange & tirades. I admit offering the fellows my address to settle it like men was a little over the top and I apolagize for that. I was a caught a little off guard. I’m not use to people calling me an idiot & stupid and took it too far. I was wrong in doing that even if it was in jest…just don’t have folks questioning my manhood everyday or most anyday and was wrong to do what I did (if even in a joking fashion).

    I just don’t agree with the tone of about ten of your commentators…but I won’t apolagize for that.

  143. sunshinemary

    See, Chris, I’m terrible about following through on sending a commenter packing. How many times have I told Frank and Matthew King to put a cork in their squabbles here? I make big threats and then let them keep right on. And then I let people that I’ve banned keep talking. I have enforcement issues. :) But it’s really that I want to give everyone every possible chance to have their say. I don’t want to stifle free conversation, but I can’t let crazy people run the asylum either.

  144. Thankful Husband

    SSM,
    Sorry you were writing while I was. Yes you describe my marriage accurately. We had a rough start with my wife suffering from PMDD (PMS x 1,000) and once that was treated she is a treasure. That’s been a few years and things are great. I’m sorry for the confusion. But yes our marriage was night and day.

    I do try to read your comments and those posting but honestly I either I am stupid or they come off to me the same way you are describing me. We must have a drastically different way of looking at things because the last thing I am trying to be is disingenious…that’s one thing nobody has ever called me.

    I did not call your teaching unbiblical, but said you let unbiblical comments go unchallenged. I did not link to Ton’s “boot on throat” comment because what’s the point? There has been quite a bit of talk of violence from Ton…I kind of like the guy but you can tell he’s mad at the world and women. I wasn’t calling for you to moderate so I did not link to it. I simply wanted the men who are calling for the women to live scripturally for them to do themselves…that’s all.

    I won’t post anymore if you’ll post this. Thanks for letting me finish this thread.

    [ssm: But I specifically asked you to link to the comment so I could delete it. I don't care who the comment is from, I don't leave those kinds of comments up. You can't on the one hand be angry that I let bad comments stand unchallenged and on the other hand refuse to tell me where a bad comment is so I can zap it.]

  145. Amanda Lynn Larson

    Novaseeker- I misread one of comments. I’d like to eat crow and apologize in advance. I read breaking down, when you stated it responding someone’s actions against you and made the POW comment. I should have read more carefully. I’m sorry, I was wrong.

  146. Julian O'Dea

    Can I attempt to clarify a couple of things?

    Yes. One has to start with the right spouse. It probably helps that my wife has a naturally submissive streak. Also, she was relatively young when I married her, even more so for her age. It probably helps that she is religious and I know she has thought seriously about Ephesians. But I have no real idea exactly what her attitudes are to the theological dimension of wifely submission. I do find that “Game” works. Once a man has the principles in mind, it helps with understanding and keeping one’s wife and oneself content.

    I don’t know about other wives, but mine is volatile. I need to put a fair bit of effort into keeping things on as even a keel as possible.

  147. TheShadowedKnight

    Why bother oppressing women when they are doing great things on that front for us? If we start oppressing them, then we are going to have to do all that work instead. It is so much better watching them load boots with bricks, lie down, and carefully place them for best effect, complaining all the while. Stepford Feminists; automatons mindlessly enacting their own oppression at their own hands.

    The Shadowed Knight

  148. Amanda Lynn Larson

    Julian: Fairness prompts me to note that many women talk about training or ‘working’ men. It doesn’t always have to be a bad thing, which is I think what you were going for. Example: Thanking husband/wife for doing something you want, they feel appreciated and do it again. I definitely agreed with you and SSM about not tolerating abuse/ongoing disrespectful. No one should play punchbag and it’s not helpful to anyone.

  149. Anonymoose

    “… people don’t fit neatly in a box (such as feminists …, people that may believe in pieces of feminism) …”

    “pieces of feminism” lzozozozozlzo

    I’ve got some “pieces of feminism” for you: http://equalbutdifferent.blogspot.com/2009/09/feminism-and-sex.html

    This is the article “The Truth About Feminism” [feminism as defined by the words of its creators and leaders], which was written by one of my favorite blog ladies (after SSM, of course!), Kim.

  150. Frank

    Is it me, or does anyone get this weird effeminate vibe from Thankful Husband’s comments? I put one of the longer comments in the Gender Genie for analysis just out of curiosity and it comes back female. Make of that what you will.

  151. Amanda Lynn Larson

    Anonymoose: …I feel ill now. *flail* I was going more for the ‘I don’t want to be abused (yes, I am aware it is a small percentage of men that batter, and that most men are awesome. I am not claiming other wise.). Rape is bad (see previous disclaimer).’ bit with pieces of feminism. Not that.

  152. Novaseeker

    Novaseeker- I misread one of comments. I’d like to eat crow and apologize in advance. I read breaking down, when you stated it responding someone’s actions against you and made the POW comment. I should have read more carefully. I’m sorry, I was wrong.

    I don’t think I was the one who made the comment, actually.

  153. nightskyradio

    Frank – Is it me, or does anyone get this weird effeminate vibe from Thankful Husband’s comments? I put one of the longer comments in the Gender Genie for analysis just out of curiosity and it comes back female

    I know a lot of people who write differently than they speak. I blame it on boys learning how to write from women teachers who are stuck on flowery emotion-pr0n literature.

    SSM – I swear I am not trying to sell you pr0n videos, vicodin, or fake Coach handbags!

    No, you keep bogarting all those for yourself, ya greedy…. where’s Allie supposed to get her fake designer handbags now?

    You don’t even sell the basil anymore. What happened to you???

  154. Looking Glass

    @Deep Strength, and anyone else that gets this far down the thread.

    I think the better way to understand TH is to toss out the “Alpha/Beta” split and focus a bit more on the things he says he “does”. Then compare it to the “advice” he’s given. With that, I think we can point out the issue.

    The simple issue is that TH’s own personal actions, and how he’s made it through, actually conflict with what he’s learned, taught others and otherwise believes about “how” your supposed to “love” a Wife. In the Alpha/Beta Roissy split, he’s Beta. In a Vox Day style, probably a Beta (compared to a Delta or Gamma). His best traits are perseverance and “work harder”. That’ll get you A LOT of places in life. Outworking your competitors is about the best way to victory, most of the time.

    Now, take this into his marriage. His wife, for 12 years!, was something of a basket case and a physical danger to him. That it “worked out” is hindsight, a major miracle and actually not a good sign of his own leadership ability. Quite a number of the guys that go through something like that end up killed by their wives. When she’s that far gone mentally, it’s only the Lord’s blessing that he isn’t very, very dead. But that the Lord kept him alive isn’t an approval of the job he was doing: it’s just the blessing of survival.

    “Agape” isn’t letting someone run amok and put their entire family at risk. That’s actually foolishness. Which has been pointed out before and it’s why the “continual sacrificing” method actually is so disastrous. It also conflicts with his own story.

    Someone that works their ass off building their own business and taking complete care of their own home… isn’t putting their Wife before them. Much of what he “does” can’t be tagged as supplication. He appears to have only been actually supplicating on the medical topic, even if it was damn stupid thing to do. He could get away with this because he always had something else to do and, if it really became necessary, he has the physical stature to defend himself. This is pretty much the version of the UMC kid that can get away with alcohol & pot and comes out fine. He’s got plenty of natural advantages in the situation to see him through, even if there is still a big risk he’ll end up dead by his choices.

    Thus TH is stuck in a cognitive trap. He’s listened to too many preachings on the unbiblical way to “love” a Wife and its taken root… as a concept he explains to others. He believes he does (and did) that for his Wife, even when he really didn’t. He hasn’t been able to wrap around that he “got lucky” rather than “he did it all correctly”. This is a failure of introspection, testing the spirits you encounter and the “It all worked out in the end” fallacy. Thus, he can’t actually process the “process” he used with the way he’s told others (or even believes) the process actually worked out for the positive result.

    A house divided against itself cannot stand. Remember that, as the nasty things it does to the mind when confronted with the issue is what we saw. It wouldn’t surprise me, after the end of the medical issues, that his “home life Game” is absolutely stone-cold. Thus, his wife is quite submissive to it. But I don’t believe he’s giving lip service to what he’s said. I think he actually believes it. I just doubt that he realizes what he “does” is very different.

  155. Looking Glass

    @Amanda:

    You might have misread a post that got caught up in SSM cleaning up from trolls. Wouldn’t be the first time something like that’s happened. I’ve responded to posts that disappeared while I was typing.

    And I’ve had SSM’s blog disappear between hitting refresh and send!

  156. nightskyradio

    LG – And I’ve had SSM’s blog disappear between hitting refresh and send!

    I keep telling ya the refresh button isn’t the red one with the mushroom cloud on it….

  157. TheShadowedKnight

    I was trying to think of a way to do this without being rude, to try to gently explain the precepts behind these discussions. Then I remembered that I have never met you, am never going to date you, and have minimal interest in your emotional wellbeing. Plus it is late and I am tired. Maybe later, or something. So, here goes.

    What you have spoken is the most popular fallback when an debate starts to go badly: Not All Women Are Like That, or NAWALT, for brevity’s sake. It is only true in the most limited sense, that yes, people are individuals. On any sort of large scale, yes, All Women Are Like That. It is how you were designed, and it is not a matter of fault or blame. Some manage to rise above and control themselves, but they are the outliers and it still requires conscious effort to overcome, So All Women Are Like That. A solipsistic belief in personal uniqueness leads you to believe that you are an exception. Based on your posting, you are not that rare creature, but–just like All Women–Are Like That.

    Go, dear girl, and try pulling NAWALT on Alpha Game or Chateau Heartiste, and you are going to get educated right quick. They have tearing apart NAWALT down to a science; a practiced dissection of a terrible yet common argument. You would be subject to the intellectual equivalent of drinking hydrochloric acid through a fire hose. Not pleasant in any sense.

    Now, Lisa? My sex has gifted the world with Hawking, Bach, Homer, Jefferson, Hippocrates. You have the Curies, Austen, Elizabeth, and yeah… pretty much it. When it comes to the important things like knowledge, art, civilization, *reality* is male chauvinistic. It does not require a hatred of women to recognize that men build maintain, and advance civilization. I despise Feminism, not women.

    Oh, one last thing: Pythagoras..? Man.

    The Shadowed Knight

  158. Anon

    “Anon: I was thinking of one-on-one mentoring options with boys, if that is any clearer? There’s also big brother/big sister, and other organizations for inner city or other youth that desperately need men.”

    Oh no, it is not problem of clarity. It’s just hilarious. If any red pill man walked into one of those organizations and declared “I would like to sign up to be mentor/big brother.” They would say. “How wonderful, here is an application.”

    On that application, they would asked questions about their worldview, why they are joining.

    I cannot conceive of a way to answer those kinds of questions and be approved as a “big brother.”

    Are you suggesting we lie and infiltrate?

  159. Chris

    @SSM — Sorry about the commenting thing. If you try your wordpress address you should be recognized. I’m continually trying to find a product that allows people through but cuts out all the gucci bags and nefarious products.

    I also have a fairly vicious banned words list.

    if you cannot get through, email me and I’ll post it.

  160. Ton

    Concern for the cause of Christ, around these parts, if you don’t suck up to women, or rush to get married folks will say you are not Christain as if a man’s whole service to the Almighty is based on serving the feminine imperative

  161. empathologism

    For example, women being extra sinful/selfish touches on my worth as a human being and child of God.

    The training your wife one was also one that (for me) touched on human dignity. It wasn’t that a man asked his wife to be respectful or had the expectations that she’d treat him with respect and love. Those are awesome. I just want to be put in a different, higher category than we have for house training a dog.

    Amanda, sincerely, you have to learn how to discuss things with men. Men call BS when they see it, especially a group like you find here where everyone is likely some degree above average intelligence (not sayin’ much these days). You INSERT the word “extra” so that you can then rebut the point. Amanda, that word not any word suggestive of it has never been stated nor implied. This is arguing like a girl. this is NAWALT thinking foist on any declarative statement you KNOW is true but wish to refute.

    You know women have a sin nature and it is no less than men’s. You are steeped in churchianity where, as that link showed, the group think is that really bad sins are man sins. This message is conveyed subtly, preachers do not state “mens sins are the worst”. But over the course of years, thats what gets through.

    Then, as you have done here, if confronted with a group discussing women’s sins only with no reference to mens sins to make the women reading feel better, it FEELS like you are reading that we are saying women are way worse sinner, so, you insert “extra” and rebuke that, because of how these words made you FEEL. It is very very difficult to not do this for a woman. even the very best women will slip one in on occasion, oh and yes, men do this too. the difference is, here, we call BS BS immediately, and men take criticism as a way to improve, while women will wallow in it and let it damage that tenuous esteem.

    Training the wife should not be compared to training a pet, rather to teaching children. This does not say that women are JUST LIKE children (which is where your emotional reading would take you for the rebuttal). Its talking of method, approach, and outcome. Its predictive of dilemmas in marriage where the man must choose something that goes against what his wife really really wants. In that case it is not unlike when the child really really wants something.

    My oft used silly example

    Couple has $100 (the numbers are irrelevant, and forget about credit for the example). They owe $90 in bills. pay is in a week. Wife is excited she just learned her aunt is turning 70 and there will be a big reunion.
    She says we gotta go and we gotta take a gift
    Husband shows her the numerical facts and says we cannot do it
    her buts start,
    but we have never been to her house, but we have never given her anything, but its her 70th birthday, but the cost is $12, and we have 10, and can scraoe up the other 2 from coins,
    He says what about food
    She says, oh those things always work out, it always does, you just wait I assure you it will be ok

    On and on.
    He must say no, and he must deal with a child like emotional desire on her part.

    Take that and apply it to lots of big marital decisions, thats what training the wife is about. Some need it more than others, some very very little even at first, and some learn over time.

    The urge you have right now to say something about how men do this too is 100% true and 100% irrelevant. To communicate logically in a group of men you have to let go of relativism, of always judging one thing by comparing it to someone elses thing. The idea stands on merit, not because it is or is not present in men, or another group.

    You have a lot to learn in order to effectively exchange ideas with men. I say this kindly, be sure. It will benefit you greatly to learn these things. Its hard because the church is so busy defining communication as the way women do it, if men would become women then all is well. Learn to use male communication when it is appropraite.

  162. Deep Strength

    LG,

    That makes sense. As I said over at Cane’s I didn’t see the part where his wife had went from murding crazy to submissive. Definitely not alpha as an alpha wouldn’t ever be in that situation.

    That’s really not anything any guy can change. Just the grace of God.

  163. Looking Glass

    @Deep Strength:

    I missed some of it too and wasn’t really involved in the comment threads until I read up later. It also should be noted that dramatic, yet rare, issues rarely take longer than 5 to 6 years to diagnose. Of the 20,000+ “rare” disorders, the expected diagnosis time is 2 to 5 years. It’s highly unusual it took 10 years to find (2 years before they dealt with it).

    So, never accept insanity that another brings upon you. Kind of a key point.

  164. Anon

    “Heck, helping a needy boy could be as simple as playing catch with a single mom’s son at church.”

    What we are literally saying to you is, that’s not help.

    I would love to join one of these organizations but the things I would tell these lost boys would get back to someone and I would be crucified in my work. I could literally lose my livlihood over it.

    I am a doctor, and I my family has become accustomed to a lifestyle that I provide them. We live in a neighborhood of long white horse fences, McMansions, etc. I literally come home, lock my family behind the wall and immediately begin the deprogramming of my children that is required in order to, as Dalrock puts it “save the seeds” of civilization while the fire rushes over, for a hope that my children will rebuild.

    In the past, parents could could rest assured that they would send their children out into the world and the values they were being taught at home would more or less be reinforced. Now, only the upper middle class and above have the luxury of living a “traditionalist” lifestyle.

    I will not risk all of that for some others bastard children. Sorry.

  165. Looking Glass

    To backup what Anon said:

    The “Big Brother/Big Sister” program is, effectively, just “Big Sister” now. The last place a Man should be, in our legal society, is around young children that are not his own. He risks his entire life just by being alone in the same room, for 30s, with one of those children. Children of stupid mothers crave attention and they’ll get it anyway they can. Yes, that means ruining some Man’s life.

    That’s the *reality* of the world you live in. Men *have* to deal with the legitimate risks and practicalities. We don’t get to live in La La Land where you don’t get your life ruined by provably false accusations. This is the world that a lot of people have chosen as the end result of their “good intentions”. Those “good intentions” will sell what is left of our society down the river.

    It’s sad, it truly is. But humans are evil and the Devil does his work. And he’s very good at it.

  166. Ton

    When feminist, male or female, hear a man use strong words they always dismiss those words with terms like anger, bitterness etc.

    One day the lion will lay down with lambs, these are not those days. Boot on throat is not part of my lexicon when dealing with women. It is however the way of things when dealing with out groups. One will either dominate or be dominated. We live in a fallen world and those are the only two options. This is true of relationship at the one on one level, all the way up to civilization vs civilization. The west is done because western men no longer care to follow God’s command to take dominion over the world. That there is no dominion over his women and kids is only a sign of that overall weakness.

    The type of will to dominate required to crush your enemy is not the same as keeping women in check….but sadly for men, women these days are often the enemy and require a much more purposeful will in bringing them to heel.

    The more men do to make life better for single moms and their get, the more of each we will have. That holds true with all social issues folks want to address with woman’s morality vs masculine morality. Woman’s soft version of morality based on side steeping consequences out of a misused sense of compassion is important in a family setting. It’s the touch of death to society at large when applied outside the family.

  167. empathologism

    SG, I have a post and the longest comment thread Ive ever had going right now on this topic. That link you posted was offered early in my comment thread and has informed a lot of the comments, and this morass is all tied together

  168. Anon

    Amanda-

    I also think this is worth explaining. It took men somewhere between 6,000 and 450,000,000 years (depending on what you believe about the history of “man”) to build civilzation. It took women about 100 years to totally destroy it. (I start that clock at sufferage).

    For women to basically say to us “oops. Sorry we wrecked everything. Can you fix it?” makes a guy like me stick my hand out, put my thumb in the “down” position and then blow a raspberry at you.

    This is what asking us to “man up” and mentor a bunch of fatherless children that exist because of stupid feminist polices over the last 4 generations is essentially what your request amounts to.

  169. Ton

    Clearly amanda and her ilk do not care for the opinions of men that they cannot shame into behaving as they see fit. See we are not fully human to them but tools to be used. And sometime oiled if we get to squeaky

  170. TheShadowedKnight

    Anon’s last comment sums up the present beautifully. Women want the society of the nineteenth century and the rights and responsibilities of the twenty first–which is to say all rights, no responsibilities. You cannot have both, but no one is willing to admit that, many because such a system is so unthinkable. Feminists are modern Marie Antoinettes; responding, “let them eat cake, and have it, too.”

    The Shadowed Knight

  171. Amanda Lynn Larson

    TheShadowedKnight: I would consider being offended, but I’m dealing with someone willing to make broad assumptions about half the human race. I also note that the debate fallback conveniently avoids men. When this ceases to be applicable? I’ll stop calling bull. Until then, you need to pick. Either it applies across the board and we’re individuals response for ourselves or we’re responsible for our genders. If I’m responsible for women in general? You just general volunteered to pick up the tab for men, and I’m more than capable of playing that game. It -is- a game, because you don’t care to apply it yourself or your sex.

    Misogyny isn’t a superior argument, however much you enjoy yourself or others talk, by the way. My crime is asking you to not consider women inferior, which is apparently awful and feminist. By that description? Yes, I’d qualify as a feminist. So would Jesus with his treatment of women. He helped the woman at the well, and spared the woman being stoned. He certainly didn’t sit online and spew crap at them. You can call that feminist babble all you want, it doesn’t make it less true. Preaching can be done with respect, if it isn’t done so, you’re being abusive, not Biblical.

  172. Amanda Lynn Larson

    Anon: I’m apparently missing a few things, because it was not meant as an attempt to troll or be a wench. ._. I swear! I actually meant it when I said that, even if it was people that I didn’t agree with (about some things), that I still got excited about awesomeness. Anyway, that’s all I meant. If it wouldn’t work (I trust you on this), I concede that.

  173. Anonymous Reader

    Sunshinemary
    Also, anyone who posts under multiple handles and has discussions with themselves (yes, that has happened) without first discussing that with me by email will also be placed into moderation.

    I find it best to have those discussions with myself offline, perhaps in the bathroom mirror. Perhaps you should suggest that to them that wants to do so?

  174. Ton

    Where did Christ say anything that changed the notation women were the property of their father or husband?

  175. Amanda Lynn Larson

    Looking Glass and Anon: I’m still catching up, hence the disjointed replies. I didn’t think about it putting you or your’s in danger and that wasn’t in my intention. I’m more than happy to take your word/experiences for it here, and withdraw the suggestion. You guys are ones in your communities, businesses, etc, I’m not going to claim I know better, not at all.

    Anon: I have a hero complex that’s not related to getting men to do work. I rescue animals and more regardless, so my tendencies would be there anyway, I’m afraid. I can’t help it. There were other motivating pieces at work here, but (see above) I definitely wouldn’t push for something that you don’t feel is safe or relevant to your life. I do wish you guys were happier though. ._.

  176. Amanda Lynn Larson

    Ton: I don’t object to the idea of man as a leader. I don’t like it when there seems to be implications of inferiority. The two things are things are extremely different. Man in charge? Sure.

  177. Anon

    Just to be clear about 2 things. As I lay here next to my daughter who is fallIng asleep watching videos on my phone, I could not be happier. But she is my daughter. I have made a commitment to a woman and made these babies. They are mine.

    Second– a hero is by definition someone who has placed himself at great personal risk for someone who could not protect themselves. I have been 10,000 miles from home, and faced the enemy in my country’s uniform, so that box is checked. I do not have any desire to risk losing my ability to take care of these children and my wife for a “single mom” who in this day and age is that way almost certainly by choice.

  178. Amanda Lynn Larson

    Anon: I have nothing but respect for our soldiers. :) I’m also glad you’re happy. There’s a lot of anger here, so it’s nice to ‘hear’ some peace beneath it.

    I personally work with traumatized kiddos and their parents, with emphasis on the kiddos. I don’t know if that’s heroic, but I think it’s important. Kids deserve a chance.

  179. Amanda Lynn Larson

    empathologism: I found some quotes for you. Women are children who need managed and should have little to no legal standing.

    Woman are no more capable of gratitude then they are of respect. They will fake these things if they fear losing you enough, but don’t posses them in a genuine fashion

    Amanda, men and women are born with little to no moral agency. Acting in a manner contrary to their immediate self interest in order to not harm another is not part of their perspective. They need to be taught that, by their parents, primarily the father. The difference between the sexes is that absent a systemic enforcement of those moral standards, women backslide much faster than men. Their own self interest comes to the fore and they act in accordance to that. The attitude of “training” a woman is therefore necessary in this society in order to enforce any sort of moral standard.
    and
    Part of that revolution will involve putting women back in their place, and making men aware of their true nature. Is the decline over the past few decades not proof of the female propensity for short term self interest over all other considerations?

    Please explain, as a man, how I misread that as not implying that women are less moral, more selfish, and not need of more guidance, much like, oh, children. Possibly due that directly being stated verbatim.

    I’m not actually trying to get you or anyone else to say men’s sins are worse. What I’m fighting is the crap that I just copied and pasted. -That- is what I’m objecting to. Not that you shouldn’t be disgusted by immorality. Not that you can’t be hurt/angry/whatever else if a woman has wronged or sin. That is normal. It just crosses a line when it becomes disgust with a sin or a particular person to generalizations about an entire -sex- or blatant misogyny. Equal guilt? Great, I can handle it. I’ve seen it, dealt it, probably on a larger scale than you as I work in social services and with women.

    No problem with your example, especially as I see myself in it. (I have a tiny gift giving problem and if I do get married, have no problem admitting that future possible husband should very likely be in charge of finances. >_o ) It spooks me in some already icky posts, but I get the concept of a) boundaries/no or b ) reward (i.e. I want someone to pick up their stuff, and asking nicely works much better than nagging).

    The idea stands on merit, not because it is or is not present in men, or another group.

    I would be fine with this, if we were not talking about ‘most or nearly all women do this thing’ as quoted above. If Poster Bob said ‘Our culture currently encourages women to sin in this way and many do’ – I would not be having the same reaction, because it a statement of women’s innate sinfulness, value or random sexism. Can you see the difference? Even saying someone or some people may be more susceptible to certain kinds of sin is -not the same thing- is saying they -are- more blah blah.

    But yes, I did read your post, and yes, I will attempt to be sure I am not comparing apples and oranges overall. Also, that I am using logic that I can back up if asked.

  180. TheShadowedKnight

    Amanda, in several parts, my rebuttal of your complaints.

    Female inferiority, whether based on a biblical or empirical standpoint, is a fact. Biblically, women were created as man’s helper and companion. The Bible is rife with references to wifely submission, and superiors do not submit to inferiors, nor do equals submit. Inferiors submit to inferiors. Empirically, men are larger and stronger than women. Since the male intelligence bell curve is flatter, we have many more highly intelligent men than women, although that is offset by the existence of more very stupid men than women. Regardless, when it comes to the use of force–the deciding factor in any conflict–men are vastly superior to women. Either way you try to argue this, you lose. Women do not achieve parity on a physical or mental level– that allowing them to vote en masse has been a disaster makes an argument against parity on a political level, as well–and are thus inferior, or God commanded submission and obedience to their husband, which defines them as the inferior via heavenly decree.

    Now, the reason I make broad assumptions and generalizations on the sexes is because of a concept called sexual dimorphism. The species is divided into two different shapes and behaviors based on sex–male and female. Each sex acts in different ways, has different motivations, different thought processes, and even different physiological makeups. While a woman may differ from the basic template, she is still a woman, barring unfortunate congenital anomalies. Same goes for men, to a lesser extent. As noted earlier, men have a flatter bell curve for physiological and psychological mutation and variances. Still, men and women exhibit the general characteristics of their sex. Men have a penis and testicles that generate and eject semen, women do not. Women have ovaries and a womb to release eggs and gestate a fetus, men do not. Men use more logical, ordered thought patterns because planning brings back more meat and helps men survive fighting other men, while women use a more emotional, instinctive thought process because they are practically incapable of self defense against predators of both two and four legged persuasion.

    While individuals may differ from the baseline, men are more likely than women to do so, and yet no man–excepting the genetic freaks and aberrations–will grow ovaries and a womb. The baseline for the sexes is what I use for macro level decisions, while the individual personality, disposition, and my interactions with another is how I make micro level decisions.

    Like, for instance, the decision to classify you as naive and unaware of the tendencies that make women what they are based on your posting and your reactions. That you have never been taught the truth works in your favor, your reluctance to learn, on the other hand, works against it. Your attitude, your beliefs, your writing, your individuality define my reaction to you, but with only the short internet conversation to draw from, I am forced to rely on the baseline womanly attitudes in our conversation. If I knew *you* individually, you might see a different side of me. Less the autistic sociopath I have become, and more the boy that wanted above all to help people that I was. Until that day, I go by what I see, and it does not please me, nor reflect well upon you or the society that formed you. Your compassion and lack of understanding invites more trouble upon your head, and you will never see it coming.

    This is also the reason for the lack of respect and tact in my thoughts. Your offense at my attitude is unfounded, because you overvalue yourself compared to me. You believe that *I* somehow owe you respect. You believe wrongly. Respect is not freely given, or it means nothing. It must be earned. You get nothing for existing, you have to prove worthy. You have failed to do so thus far. Should you continue in the same manner, you will continue to prove yourself unworthy. Once you correct yourself, you will find that my responses will be properly respectful.

    The Shadowed Knight

  181. Amanda Lynn Larson

    TheShadowedKnight: Second in command doesn’t mean inferior species, it means ‘not the leader’. Which yes, I grasp that. There needs to be a leader, God nominated the man as more suitable -to the leadership role-. That you automatically translate that as inferior is your issue, not mine. Men are bigger and stronger, sure. I find this attractive. Re: More intelligent- I’d like to see the studies, and meta-analysis backing this up, please and thanks.

    I am grateful for the vote and being allowed to make my own choices. It means that I can choose to not married to someone that dislikes my sex or not be married at all, if I choose to not.

    It would be nice if you liked and/or respected it, but it’s hardly a requirement. Given that I am inferior from my mere existence, I’m not really expecting much. So I’m going to go about my day and let you go doing your thing. I’ll let God define my value instead, with Him being Lord of the Universe and all.

  182. Hannah

    @ Amanda:
    “My crime is asking you to not consider women inferior, which is apparently awful and feminist. By that description? Yes, I’d qualify as a feminist.”

    The foundation of your argument is 100% wrong.

    I believe women ARE inferior!

    God created an order in the beginning:

    Father
    Son
    Spirit
    Arch-angels
    Kings
    Man – Husband
    Woman – Wife
    Children
    Animals

    None of this changes just because FEELINGS get in the way!
    Leonard Cohen (fantastic singer btw) once wrote “I don’t trust my inner feelings, inner feelings come and go.”
    I agree, but women tend to let their feelings dictate their actions. Crazy! (Fathers and husbands do a good job here of reining in the female’s tendencies.)

    ‘And the Lord God said, “It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.”
    …’And Adam said:
    “This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man.”
    Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.
    Genesis 2 v 18- 24

    ‘He who finds a wife finds a good thing, And obtains favour from the Lord.’
    Proverbs 18:22

    Within this God-ordained order, I find my freedom. I know who I am in Christ, I know who I am called to be on this earth – that I was created to fill a need… that I am a ‘good thing’ for my husband within my role as his helper. I am filled with joy as I live within my created nature that God intended.

    ‘For man is not from woman, but woman from man. Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man.’
    1 Corinthians 11 v 8-9

    We women ARE inferior! But so what?!
    Do I know the mind of God that I should question his ways? What I do know, is that Eve was deceived first, and yet God holds Adam accountable as he was appointed LEADER. I don’t want to cause my husband to sin before God.

    We have a society that has an obsession with women and taking away power from men.

    ‘Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, thought it not a thing to be grasped to be equal with God’
    Philippians 2 v 5-6

    It is against God’s word to strive for equality… we are not to be puffed up, instead I believe we are to humble ourselves as servants.
    Feminism and equality are corrupting much of what is good in society. Our culture is embracing beliefs that are opposed to God everywhere we look.
    I believe this overturning of God’s created order is unholy and the root of much rebellion to God in the church.

    Amanda you also said:
    “So would Jesus with his treatment of women. He helped the woman at the well, and spared the woman being stoned. He certainly didn’t sit online and spew crap at them. You can call that feminist babble all you want, it doesn’t make it less true.”

    In those two situations, Yeshua stooped to help the women. They didn’t deserve it. He blessed them with unmerited favour – otherwise known as grace. We cannot claim we deserve it in anyway shape or form.
    Yeshua delivered the TRUTH in love to these women.
    They were told to ‘Go and sin no more!’

    I believe the men here are doing a good and quite frankly very patient job of presenting the truth to you.

    It’s just a hard pill to swallow.
    Be courageous!

    All this talk about equality. The only thing people really have in common is that they are all going to die. Bob Dylan

  183. Amanda Lynn Larson

    Hannah: I respect your right to make your choices and have your beliefs. I’m going to go with how God describes me and views me. I do appreciate the effort to instruct me, as I know you’re reaching out in love. I suggest we agree to disagree. :)

    For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.

    But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.

    See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.

    I’m a precious, wanted, child of God. He wanted me enough to die for me, and He defines my value. He did not make me inferior, unless we are defining inferior as submissive/second in command as opposed to lesser in value/intelligence/etc. He did make me a helpmate, and to complement the man, as you noted above. If we’re going the less capable, less intelligent, and so on, I’m going to wish you well, and leave you to it. It’s just not something I want to be a part of.

  184. Hannah

    Amanda,

    An interesting thing to look into at this point is the difference between the ‘New Creation’ in Christ, and the ‘Old Creation’ as in God’s created order…. how do these two fall in line with each other? I think beautifully!

    “For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
    Galatians 3 v 26- 28

    ‘Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.’
    2 Corinthians 5:17

    Certainly these verses are true, but we still live within God’s created order or ‘Old Creation’ on this earth, and have guidelines, restrictions and commands within this.

    “Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Saviour of the body. Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.”
    Ephesians 5 v 22-24

    The pastor at our church said something that I liked and will take on here; and it goes a little like this:
    I don’t want to have to think everything out – I don’t want to be like a Greek thinker, I want to be like a Hebrew thinker! So I don’t need to reconcile all things…

    With that in mind I would agree that YES we are a new creation in Christ, but yet at the same time – Yes I am a female as in the created order of God, and as such, I am inferior to the male and I am instructed to submit to my husband.

    ‘Wives, submit to your own husband, as to the Lord.’ Ephesians 5 v 22
    ‘And the wife see that she reverence her husband’ Ephesians 5 v 33

    No good will come of trying to change God’s word to fit your view.
    We need to conform to His word.

  185. Amanda Lynn Larson

    Hannah: I’ve never argued the submitting part, should I choose to marry. Again, I’m not interested in dominating men or a husband, should I take one. I’ve argued the inferior part. We disagree on the interpretation of that scripture. It does happen from time to time. Also, if we are all one in Christ? I’m definitely not inferior. ;) I’m an heir according to promise!

  186. TheShadowedKnight

    Superior defined: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/superior+?s=t
    Note that one of the definitions is higher in rank or status. By definition if one is superior, the other is… inferior. That is not the same as having no value. On the contrary, a trusted inferior–or subordinate, if you will–is beyond price. Good women are priceless to the right men.

    Intelligence, here you go: http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/SexDifferences.aspx
    http://lndavout.blogspot.com/2008/02/malefemale-intelligence-differences.html
    Men are wider spread and more represented on the higher end of intelligence testing. Meta analysis and studies, as requested, proving me correct yet again. Can we move on? Or do I need to continue to crush your illusions about human nature?

    Oh, voting, huh? Voting women: https://considerandhearme.wordpress.com/2011/01/23/womens-suffrage-divorce-and-big-government/
    http://johnrlott.tripod.com/op-eds/WashTimesWomensSuff112707.html
    What that means is by giving women the franchise, civilization dies as entitlements pile up and liberty is replaced with debt. Enjoy your time at the ballot, knowing that women voters will gut the economy of this country trying to save themselves from the divorce industry, which they are responsible for creating. In trying to save everyone, they saved no one and destroyed themselves.

    Your final point, letting the Lord decide your worth. Proverbs 31 would be a place to start, but… Oh, no! She is married! That would mean… He feels that women should be married, too. The Lord of Creation rates married women as the ideal! Like I have been saying all along, and almost like I have an idea of how this all works. Whoa, I was close to segueing back into the “men have better judgment and intelligence” argument, which I handily turned to ash and dust. No need to strut over the ruins of past intellectual conquests.

    On that vein, lest you attempt to outflank me on the subject of men, let me clear that up for you. The ideology that beats out even the horrors of Feminism for the subject of my fury is the Mohammedan Heresy, colloquially known as “Islam.” The best that you can say about that clan of filthy savages is that they… Nope, nevermind, could not think of a thing. That “religion” is nothing more than the Male Imperative, uncontrolled and running riot. Their “prophet” was a treacherous pedophile warlord exemplifying the absolute worst traits of men, unchecked by any authority, even usurping the voice of the Lord. The men at the top gather their wives, while the men on the bottom impotently rage in a attempt to prove their worth. Pickup artists are but a shallow water reflection of the horror of man unbound that the Mohammedans demonstrate.

    You see, society requires that both Man and Woman give up part of their respective Imperatives to function properly. If one takes it back up, the other will in self defense. Cooperation, in the natural roles of man leading and woman following, makes great works. Right now, the Female Imperative is running unchecked through all levels of society. The Male Imperative is sure to follow if nothing gets done, but it is still held back. If the Female Imperative is reigned in before too much longer, disaster might be averted. The sexes can get back to their natural roles, and enjoy peace and happiness. If not, collapse and barbarism await. Thus, the focus needs to be on women, because they are the drivers of this current catastrophic train wreck of a society.

    The Shadowed Knight

  187. Amanda Lynn Larson

    Hannah: Our culture is embracing beliefs that are opposed to God everywhere we look.
    I believe this overturning of God’s created order is unholy and the root of much rebellion to God in the church.

    A belated yes to that. Feminism is far from the answer- as it’s of the world, parts of it are very corrosive and undermining to society and God’s order (as you noted). I wish the Church and/or Christians were taking up the battles that should be fought, as I know that that larger feminism umbrella isn’t a place I belong. Some Christians certainly have taken up the battles (the ones that are worth fighting) along the way, it should be noted.

  188. empathologism

    empathologism: I found some quotes for you. Women are children who need managed and should have little to no legal standing.

    No surprises here Amanda. You are confusing function and form. In form (Gods value) of course he is to us all equally loving equally just. say that that means we are equal. No issue.

    He set an order in this world, as Hannah indicated well, where we are not equal in function. Another subtlety, this is not about the value of our function (mother/father….home maker/ farm worker….etc) this is about the order of the function. Not equal.

    Form equal, function unequal regarding sin. This ties to the idea of training and even legality. Think function.
    We supposedly have equal rights under our laws. We so not. The law is the threat point that serves to UN-restrain women’s sin nature. The church serves to UN-restrain women’s sin nature, as do most unwitting white knight Christian men. So, while the genders may not, in form, have one morally superior to the other, they indeed have in function that very difference. And how are men’s sins dealt with? Plainly, like children. Bold rebuke all the way to jail (time out), and execution (physical punishment), men physically rebuke one another all the time, in good and bad ways. Moral men enforce.

    What about women. Less likely to be inconvenienced by laws for crime, most likely to be aided by laws regarding familism. The system, church, laws and society, draw out womens sin nature. The system, though this can be seen to be crumbling, has enforced against mens sin nature.

    Also, women will follow feelings over hard fast rules. this is critical to getting the point. Women will influence rules so that they end up feeling a certain way about the rules, and what they seek has less to do with efficacy and more with fairness.
    I could go on and on.
    it renders women more functionally sinful than men because they have less external restraints. If the system was reversed who knows. Women are more sinful because of what was in the link about women sinning. They don’t even truly get the sinning because they have that little furry guy telling them “you did that because he did that”.

    Since women got the right to vote, all of this has manifest in government and the law.

    To fix it, systems will not do. Imagine a married man with a wife who is steeped in the world I described. Its not hard to see that training and rebuke, negative reinforcement (not physically beating women or any other straw man thing that gets cooked up here) and strong guardrails.

    Example, to combat a wife’s ever present urge to micromanage things, which is legion. Guy i work with, wife retired last week. they are having a retirement party this weekend. They have a home office full of wifes boxed teacher stuff from her job, and wife wants that cleaned before the party. Man says, ok, Ill drop it at our storage place then bring it back after. She says nope, we will unbox and incorporate all of it into the home by the weekend,

    My response would be, ok go ahead. My participation involves the storage garage. Any other thing that makes you FEEL that stuff is put away, you are on your own. That is corrective. he failed, he always does, and he is miserable. Controlling is sin. He should have treated her like a child.

  189. Anon

    TSK– the steady increase in the level of state size and involvement in our lives after over a century of being basically flat –beginning with suffrage– is striking. It is precisely why I mentioned it.

  190. Deep Strength

    The problem is Amanda is having a visceral reaction to the “inferior” statement which is true on the physical earth while confusing it to spiritual worth.

    Whatever analogy you want to use makes it less visceral as long as you can see that the man is supposed to lead and the woman is to be under his authority.

    For example, the Bible uses (1) head and the body to describe Christ and the church, just like the husband and the wife.

    Other analogies that describe authority are: (2) pilot and copilot, (3) captain and first mate, (4) superior and inferior, (5) leader and follower/subordinate.

    Here’s another Biblical analogy. Say we all (humans) all works of the potter’s hands (God).

    The potter (God) considers all of his works (humans) to be priceless (spiritual value); however, He (God) realizes that all of his works (humans) have a different abilities and utility here on the earth (husbands are leaders to the wife’s subordinate).

    Take for example the parable of the talents. God does not give the same abilities to every human — to some he gives more, to some he gives less. But He still expects us to be responsible with what we are given even more or less.

    Feminism / communism / Marxism / Liberalism seeks to claim equality here on the earth and redistribute money/goods/services/etc equally. Thus, it is ungodly, unBiblical, and no Christian should be any of these because of the order that God has set up here on the earth.

  191. Deep Strength

    In addition, let me add this:

    Life is not fair, and God does not tell us in the Bible to make it fair. (Again, nix feminism, communism, Marxism, Liberalism, etc.)

    God calls to whom He has given more to be generous to the poor, the widows, the orphans.

    God calls to whom He has given leadership in marriage (husband) to love his wife as Christ loved the church.

    God calls to whom He has given more talents to be responsible with those talents.

    To whom he has given more, He also requires more responsibility.

    Women trying to claim more responsibility here on the earth is ungodly and unBiblical, and they are doing an exceptionally poor job as they haven’t been given the talents from God be good at it. As is born out in our current culture.

  192. Anonymous Reader

    Deep Strength
    Women trying to claim more responsibility here on the earth is ungodly and unBiblical, and they are doing an exceptionally poor job as they haven’t been given the talents from God be good at it.

    As a rule, women in the industrial world do not claim more responsibility, not even close.
    They claim more authority, but leave the responsibility to men. The disconnect of responsibility from authority has led to many things, none of them good in the long term.

  193. Deep Strength

    @Anonymous Reader

    Doh. You’re correct. I thought there was something odd about what I was saying but I couldn’t pinpoint it.

    “They want equality and rights without the responsibility” should have been what I wrote.

  194. Amanda Lynn Larson

    Deep Strength: The problem is Amanda is having a visceral reaction to the “inferior” statement which is true on the physical earth while confusing it to spiritual worth.
    Whatever analogy you want to use makes it less visceral as long as you can see that the man is supposed to lead and the woman is to be under his authority.

    I see it confused to spiritual and literal worth in life all the time. So I’m nearly so ready to be convinced it ‘doesn’t matter’, ‘its fine’, or ‘trust and its all okay’. For one, that’s not even what I see -here-, with how people treat women. It’s definitely not how women in the larger world are treated (allowing for false accusations and the evils of feminism, there’s still a surprising amount of horror). If you see something as less valuable, and lesser, you (you being whoever, not you personally) will often treat it as such and we see that across the world when baby girls are aborted, left to die, and so on. Or just make little comments. Interestingly, they found a group of 12 yr old boys would consider turning into a girl a fate worse than death. I can try to find the link if you like, but it was something that effect. Anyway, for all those reasons I resist hearing it my religion.

    Feminism is a complex issue for me. I see it as a worldly and supporting things things that I find harmful or against my faith, but I also seem them as the people that care about women on a larger scale and will fight very scary things like human trafficking or rape. There are exceptions, I have amazing men in my life, I knew (and know) wonderful family men in the churches I went to while growing up, and my brothers are awesome. I don’t, rightly or wrongly, have the expectation that men or will care or act as a group and groups can be (as people here have noted) powerful.

    Whatever analogy you want to use makes it less visceral as long as you can see that the man is supposed to lead and the woman is to be under his authority.

    Copied and pasted here again for emphasis. Yes, this is fine and Biblical.

  195. Deep Strength

    Feminism is a complex issue for me. I see it as a worldly and supporting things things that I find harmful or against my faith, but I also seem them as the people that care about women on a larger scale and will fight very scary things like human trafficking or rape.

    Again, this is incorrect.

    There are no Christians who support human trafficking or rape. No Christian supports human trafficking and rape because they are obviously immoral.

    You’re thinking that because these are primarily “women’s issues” and that feminism supports “women’s issues” that part of feminism is therefore good.

    What you’re misunderstanding is that rape and human trafficking are moral issues. Feminism co-opts these moral issues to be “women’s issues” in order to gain support and appeals to you emotionally because of them:

    “If you don’t support feminism you support human trafficking and rape!”

    Simply not the case. It’s obvious that most of the strongly anti-feminist men and women here do not support rape or sexual exploitation.

    The goal of feminism is equality. That’s unBiblical. You can’t be a feminist and a Christian.

  196. Deep Strength

    Also, Feminism co-opts other moral issues such as abortion and gay marriage, but is actually for them instead of against them.

    Basically, Feminism takes moral issues and attempts to reach some mythical “equality” where upon everyone in the world would be “happy.” Whatever that means.

    Feminism is an ideology that runs counter to what God has laid out in the Bible.

    That’s why Feminism is the spirit of jezebel — See Revelation 2 letter to the church in Thyatira:

    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+2:18-29&version=NIV

    To the Church in Thyatira

    18 “To the angel of the church in Thyatira write:

    These are the words of the Son of God, whose eyes are like blazing fire and whose feet are like burnished bronze. 19 I know your deeds, your love and faith, your service and perseverance, and that you are now doing more than you did at first.

    20 Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols. 21 I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. 22 So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. 23 I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.

    24 Now I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, to you who do not hold to her teaching and have not learned Satan’s so-called deep secrets, ‘I will not impose any other burden on you, 25 except to hold on to what you have until I come.’

    26 To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— 27 that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’[a]—just as I have received authority from my Father. 28 I will also give that one the morning star. 29 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

    Feminism unrestraining women and encouraging them in the sins of sexual immorality, gluttony/obesity, and abortion straight from the Bible.

    I’d even call “equality” one of Satan’s so called deep secrets but that might be a stretch.

  197. Amanda Lynn Larson

    Deep Strength: Oh, no, no. I’m sorry if I remotely gave the impression they, you or any other Christian (male or female) supports human trafficking, etc. I’m happy to eat humble pie there, as it was NOT my intention, and I did not mean to insult you or anyone else here that way.

    I meant that I don’t (usually) see enough men leading the charge/groups/initiatives for some of these things to think we don’t need feminism or at least, feminists. Could that be the results of feminists pushing men out or other things? Possibly. I’m not trying to say I know why or that it’s all men’s fault. I’ve heard more than once that men have felt they weren’t welcome, or pushed it out. I’m not a man that’s tried to organize. It’s more to the issue of ‘if this (feminism with its activists) goes away, who will do these the important pieces of these, that -do- need to happen-’.

    I do find your reframing of woman’s issues as moral issues to be a good point, and I’ll concede that one. :)

    I think I view equality somewhat differently than you do, in that some of it is rebellion and that some of it is a reaction to abuses that were happening. The good old days were only great if you were lucky and had a great man, and a great church? If you didn’t? You were screwed. Now we have more able to be safe, but also more people readily doing evil. I’m not claiming either one is wonderful. That said, there are certainly people within the feminist movement that want that things I don’t believe in, dislike men, or want domination more than equality. None of which I’m interested in or claiming or Biblical, so I guess i’m half conceding there.

    Also, Feminism co-opts other moral issues such as abortion and gay marriage, but is actually for them instead of against them.

    Very true.

    The women you mentioned are generally have sex with immoral men. Studies certainly document the sex before marriage, living together, and all of that though. I’m not arguing the trends or the results.

  198. Amanda Lynn Larson

    TheShadowedKnight: Kudos on the definition. I actually was impressed. Well, less so now as was directly followed by explaining that we’re collectively less intelligent. You’re not remotely being acknowledged as correct until I review the research, its authors, methodology, and sources. Despite being female, I do read research and even enjoy it, though usually on fun topics such as complex trauma in childhood.

    My illusions about humanity, male or female, were shattered ages ago. A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it. I’m glad you’ve successfully maintained your self-esteem, though I wish it wasn’t so obsessively tied to putting people down.

    I will take responsibility for the downfall of the country about the time you take responsibility for slavery or other events you weren’t personally there/involved in. Have fun. :)

    I’m happy to be married, if that ends up what God has planned for me It would just be to someone that doesn’t dislike my sex and doesn’t enjoys putting women down for a hobby. The vote handily allowed me the choice, so I’m going to marry someone I enjoy, if at all. I hope you have a rocking marriage if you choose to marry, or are enjoying yourself, if you are married.

    I’ll be more impressed by this peace and happiness promise when we have a basically respectful conversation without insults. You can continue to try to control women. I would suggest it’s not the most productive or pleasant path, but it is certainly your right and choice.

  199. Amanda Lynn Larson

    empathologism: He set an order in this world, as Hannah indicated well, where we are not equal in function.

    I’m cautiously going with this.

    Bold rebuke all the way to jail (time out), and execution (physical punishment), men physically rebuke one another all the time, in good and bad ways. Moral men enforce.

    Men obsessively and boldly rebuke women all the time. If you’re dressed not sexy enough, too sexy, if you don’t have sex, if you do have sex, and so on. That’s secular, but Christians and others have their own rules. If you think women and girls don’t get rebuked, you’re crazy. Some men will do it gently, but the world, with it’s oh so helpful sexist crap is not gentle. If you really want need links to rape threats, sexist comments, and such, I can provide them, but they are not family oriented.

    Physical? Too many men abuse that for me to even consider this possibility. I’ve seen the body count, and no, just no. (Yes, women kill men and boys too. Yes, I am aware of those statistics, and that it is a serious problem. I don’t want women using violence either. No hitting for anyone.)

    As far as jails go in general: 1) Our current system is not working and is overloaded, though it may certainly have in the past. 2) Men are more likely to commit the violent crimes to get those punishments you mentioned, though women are beginning to catch up. You have a few holes in your knowledge base, which makes me think you haven’t studied violence at least in its present form.

    Women will influence rules so that they end up feeling a certain way about the rules, and what they seek has less to do with efficacy and more with fairness.

    Depends on the women, but some women have this flaw, yes.

    They don’t even truly get the sinning because they have that little furry guy telling them “you did that because he did that”

    ! I get a free pass to sin? Awesome. I don’t know better, so.. :) Too bad those external restraints aren’t in place to make up for my inability to reason or use logic.

    Re: retirement party: I don’t consider taking care of yourself and making reasonable choices to be controlling behavior. It is very reasonable to say no to unfair requests and that’s a good example, especially as you can say ‘I can’t do this today, but we can do it later/this way/etc.”.

  200. TheShadowedKnight

    Amanda, you are willing to let civilization burn to protect yourself. Fair enough, I feel the same way about this one. The difference is that I can go and make something of myself, where if it all falls apart, you get to choose between marriage, prostitution, or starvation. The female demolition of civilization is an ongoing process, and is inherent in their voting tendencies. Participation means that you are responsible, part of the problem, involved, whatever you want to call it. Voting so that you do not have to marry puts you closer to being forced to do so, or be left by the wayside. A bad decision to be sure.

    I am objectively superior. Not just to women, but to many men as well. I am stronger, faster, smarter, better, than most. That is where my self esteem comes from. My respect is valuable, because it is rare, and based off of my own high value. In order to earn it, you must prove to be just as rare. Instead, you come with a barely coherent, contradictory confusion masquerading as a belief system, spouting the same claptrap that so many silly, clueless female interlopers have brought in the past. You are not special. You are not unique. You have nothing new to offer. You are part of the system and that makes you an enemy until you separate yourself from it.

    A Churchian Feminist working in the Domestic Violence Industry, and you expected to be welcomed with open arms and hugs and good cheer? No, girl. Not a chance. You will receive an education here, and unlike those hacks that pass as teachers, we actually hold to standards. Some learn the truth and stay, others leave because the pain of accepting that you were lied to is too great, and others never came to learn at all.

    By the way, the reason the jails are full to bursting is because of Prohibition, the second greatest folly of womenfolk after Suffrage.

    The Shadowed Knight

  201. Amanda Lynn Larson

    TheShadowedKnight: I don’t think I have any power on whether civilization burns or not. If I get married and do everything right as of tomorrow? It won’t change the problems you mention. (Also, the power belongs to God.) What I can do is choose to obey God, do good, and try to win people to Him through said good.

    America may well go down due to its sin at some point. I don’t blame this on women, but sure, America has wandered away from God. If that happens, my life will be in His hands. I will live or die as He wishes. Given that the options seem to a) voting or b) being in your power, I will take my chances with voting. I do not, with all due respect, trust you. Thankfully, you have no relevance in my life, so it’s a non-issue. :)

    I am glad you are pleased with yourself. I hope life continues to go well for you. I don’t feel the need to earn your respect, because I don’t feel its worth earning.

    Have a nice night.

  202. TheShadowedKnight

    You would never be under my power. I will not court or date an American woman. I am leaving, a journey to another land, and we will not cross paths in our wanderings. I am not what you have to fear.

    Marriage to a good man would be one more brick in the wall keeping out the barbarian hordes. You do have an effect, because every little bit helps. A stable marriage and a strong family are the base of anything better than a grass hut lifestyle.

    God helps those who help themselves. If you sit in your house and never eat, you will die alone. A steak dinner with a man however, can lead to a lifelong companionship and a family of your own. If you do not act, he cannot guide what does not exist.

    The Shadowed Knight

  203. Amanda Lynn Larson

    That works. We’ll both be happy, so hey.

    I don’t know. I have a total Khal Drogo crush. More seriously, if I meet a compatible Christian man, I’m happy to get married, so no issues there.

    I’m hoping to be sharing my steak with the poor and doing good in the village. I do take your larger point, as I’m self-admitted hermit and I do need to try the getting out and meeting people thing.

  204. Amanda Lynn Larson

    Deep Strength: After some reflection, I thought I could more strongly concede your points on feminism. I do stand by the statement that I think some of the pushback was due to sin by ungodly people, some men and some women.

    I also still think that some women involved are wanting good or simple things- safety, survival, etc. I just think your larger point about what guides the movement, as of it’s of the world (i.e. what’s at the heart) is accurate. If it’s not of God, that means Satan will use it and guide it, unfortunately.

  205. Hannah

    The Shadowed Knight, I enjoy reading your comments, you say many truthful things.

    I clicked on the link you gave re: intellegence: http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/SexDifferences.aspx
    http://lndavout.blogspot.com/2008/02/malefemale-intelligence-differences.html

    Very interesting to read… my husband was watching rugby tonight so I did the IQ test-something I’ve never done before having avoided tertiary education. My score came out at 136 so I’m wondering if it’s a bs site and I should now watch our bank statements for dodgy transactions?!

  206. Deep Strength

    @ Amanda

    Deep Strength: After some reflection, I thought I could more strongly concede your points on feminism. I do stand by the statement that I think some of the pushback was due to sin by ungodly people, some men and some women.

    I also still think that some women involved are wanting good or simple things- safety, survival, etc. I just think your larger point about what guides the movement, as of it’s of the world (i.e. what’s at the heart) is accurate. If it’s not of God, that means Satan will use it and guide it, unfortunately.

    Precisely. That the Bible is patriarchical is a good thing because all things that God has made are good. Unfortunately, humans are fallible and can pervert the things of God for sinful desires.

    God has made it so that the masculine attracts the feminine and the feminine attracts the masculine.

    I’ve been saying feminism promotes equality and maybe that’s not the best way to get through to you.

    Feminism as an ideology is inherently flawed from a Biblical perspective because it seeks to have women become more like men (aka independent women, you go grrrl, do your own thing, have sex just like men do, etc.) and men to be more like women (aka get in touch with your emotional side, be nice!, consider everyone’s feelings, etc.) which runs counter to the roles that God has set for both men and women in Scripture.

    Men and women have different roles, we think differently, we act differently, we both have different strength and weaknesses. Women do not make good men (and you can see this as women who are into feminism are inherently unhappy and lash out at people, nothing is ever good enough), and men do not make good women (men who are emotional and “nice guys” can’t attract females and are unhappy with their lives). Men are good at being men, and women are good at being women. Perverting God’s order leads to sin and unhappiness.

    Feminism is the lie from Satan that women should try to be more like men.

    @ Hannah

    Very interesting to read… my husband was watching rugby tonight so I did the IQ test-something I’ve never done before having avoided tertiary education. My score came out at 136 so I’m wondering if it’s a bs site and I should now watch our bank statements for dodgy transactions?!

    Meh, it’s generally a range with IQ tests online depending on the standard deviation. 2 standard deviations above average is pretty solid.

  207. natewinchester

    NERD TIME!

    I want one of these hero(ine) cards so badly. Because I do think a metal bikini is my style, don’t you?

    Just about every one of those cards are drawing images from Magic: the Gathering card game.

    So you can get them. For instance, “Rachel Haywire” is drawn from Silverskin Armor. “HBD chick” is Angelic Destiny. So just grab a card and throw the text on it.

    Oh wait, you want YOUR name to be on a card? Hmm… I vote for:

    The Alluring Siren. Or Elspeth. The knight Exemplar would also fit you.

    No wait, this is you. Heck, ask me nicely I might even photoshop it for ya. ;)

  208. Pingback: How I learned to stop worrying and love phallocentrism. | Sunshine Mary

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