Do campus sexual assault centers and programs create the so-called “rape culture”?

If this is a woman’s view of men, will it not influence how she thinks about every interaction she has with men? (image source: #feminism tumblr)

When I entered the University of Michigan as an undergraduate student, I was coming from a very small town in rural Michigan.  I had never thought much about rape or sexual assault, although I knew what it was.  During my orientation, a woman from the Sexual Assault Prevention and Awareness Center did a presentation about all the ways that men on campus make women feel unsafe.  For example, she instructed the young men that if they were walking on campus after dark and saw a woman walking toward them, they must immediately cross the street away from her, keeping their hands visible and their heads down so as not to make her feel threatened.  “Gee,” I thought, “that’s scary.  I didn’t know how dangerous men were.”

Over my years at U of M, I heard many more presentations along those lines.  I was “educated” in Women’s Studies classes (which were required) about how it’s rape if two drunk people go home together, and the woman feels bad about it the next morning.  That’s because the woman didn’t give consent.  Somehow that made it the man’s fault.   “Gosh,” I thought, “given how much drinking and messing around everyone is doing, I guess we’ve all been raped.”

I started to feel paranoid that all men were out to get me.  I filtered all my interactions with men through that lens.  In truth, some situations probably were worth being frightened about; one night while walking home alone from a party, several drunken young men on a porch yelled at me to join them.  When I didn’t answer, one of them threatened to catch me and the others laughed.  I took off at a dead run, and while I believe they were joking, it was understable that I was frightened by that.  But in general most men were not out to assault me, nor any other woman for that matter.  There was no need to be so paranoid.

Sexual assault centers and programs have only increased in visibility and campus involvement in the years since I’ve been out of college.  And oddly, according to them, campuses are even rapey-er than ever before.  They say there is an entire rape culture on campus.

I don’t believe it, though.

And it’s becoming a serious problem.  How is it that these programs are now jockeying to be the judge, jury, and executioner when a crime is purported to have taken place?  If a sexual assault has taken place, isn’t that a matter for the police and the criminal courts?

Apparently not.  Read this article from June 13th:

College Serial Rapists Evade Antiquated Campus Responses

Carly Mee, a student at Occidental College, was hanging out with friends in late 2010 when a male student’s name came up. Mee was standing near Leah Capranica, a fellow sophomore, who said she’d had a bad experience with the student. The two women met the next day and told each other a secret: They had been sexually assaulted by the same man.

Occidental College Professor of Sociology Danielle Dirks has helped students file two complaints against the school for alleged violations of Education Department anti-discrimination and crime reporting regulations.

I looked into Danielle Dirks. She is the the co-chair of Occidental’s Sexual Assault Resources & Support.  She is the one who encouraged Mees and Capranica to report the alleged assaults to the college rather than to the police.

The women filed complaints with the college, and after investigations, the male student was found responsible for Mee’s attack, according to college documents, and admitted assaulting Capranica, she and university professors said. Occidental expelled him. A few months ago, Mee received word that the man would be allowed back to school the next academic year, after writing a report about a book on sexual assault.

“The verdict wasn’t changed,” she said. “The punishment was changed. I asked why and no one could tell me.”

Across the country, colleges are under fire for using antiquated and amateurish procedures to prevent and investigate rapes and other sexual assaults on campus. Chronically slow, botched and biased responses — in some cases relying on students as investigators — have prompted anger from rape victims and scrutiny from the U.S. Education Department.

A group of Occidental students and alumni filed a Title IX complaint with the Education Department on April 18 saying the school doesn’t meet federal standards for preventing and responding to such attacks. Title IX, the legislation known for guaranteeing women equal access to sports programs, bars all forms of sex discrimination on campus. The Education Department is investigating the group’s claims.

‘Institutional Failures’

Similar complaints have been filed against Yale University,Swarthmore College and the University of North Carolina,Chapel Hill. Swarthmore, in Pennsylvania, and UNC are conducting reviews of their sexual-assault policies.

“The young women who have come forward to report their assaults should feel protected, but the colleges have magnified their suffering,” said Gloria Allred, a Los Angeles-based attorney who is representing Mee, Capranica and other students who say they were sexually assaulted at Occidental and the University of Southern California. “These are institutional failures to comply with government regulations.”

Allred led a May 22 press conference where students atDartmouth CollegeUniversity of California, Berkeley, and USC said they’d filed complaints against their schools for alleged violations of Title IX and the Clery Act, the federal campus crime-reporting law.

Yale, based in New HavenConnecticut, is facing a $165,000 Education Department fine for failing to report campus sexual assaults in 2001 and 2002. The university is being monitored by the agency through May 2014 for compliance with regulations.

Campus Assaults

At least one-quarter of women are sexually assaulted during their college years, according to studies published as recently as 2000 by the U.S. Justice Department and crime researchers. About 27 percent of college women are raped or suffer attempted rape, according to researchers at Wayne State University.

A relatively small minority of men are responsible for most of these attacks, according to David Lisak, a former University of Massachusetts clinical psychologist who consults to the U.S. military and colleges on sexual assault.

In Lisak’s study of 1,882 college men, 120 admitted committing rape or attempted rape. They admitted to 483, or an average of 4 assaults each.

I’ve actually looked at Lisak’s study, and the methodology is flawed.  He asked the male participants two separate questions: first, had they ever had sex with someone by physically threatening them and second, had they ever had sex with someone who was too drunk to consent.  Of the ones who said yes, 80% of them said yes to the second question, but not the first, and no information is given about whether or not the men themselves were drunk.  In other words, this could be two drunk college kids who ended up having regret sex.

This is also why I don’t believe the 1-in-4 women will be sexually assaulted statistic.

Serial Rapists

“College presidents don’t like to hear this, but these are sex offenders,” said Lisak, who spoke last month at Harvard University, sponsored by student group Harvard Men Against Rape. “Every report should be viewed and treated as an opportunity to identify a serial rapist.”

So much for innocent until proven guilty.

Occidental President Jonathan Veitch declined to discuss specifics of Mee and Capranica’s cases, or disclose the name of the male student, citing state and federal privacy laws. Reducing punishments may be appropriate when new evidence comes to light, he said.

The school has hired two former sexual-crime prosecutors to review procedures and previous cases for mistakes, bias and other concerns, Veitch said. The independent investigators will look at cases where sanctions are reduced, he said.

Occidental and other schools are struggling to understand and respond to complicated interactions between young students, Veitch said. Questions such as what it means to consent to sex are unclear in the minds of many young people, he said.

Students’ Well-Being

“Colleges and universities are being asked to take on essentially judiciary functions when this isn’t the reason most people came to colleges and universities,” Veitch said in his office overlooking the campus’s bay-tree lined quadrangle and red-tiled roofs. “I’m not sure I fully understand why it isn’t handled by the judicial system, but it’s not, so it needs to be addressed by us. If we take our students’ well-being seriously we need to address it.”

Amherst College is overhauling its sexual-assault response programs following a campus outcry over the school’s policies. In a 5,000-word, first-person account in the school newspaper, a former student said she was raped in 2011 and the Amherst, Massachusetts-based school discouraged her from reporting.

Until last year, students at the University of North Carolina could take sexual-assault complaints to Honor Court, a student-run conduct committee. The university took that power away as concerns about the campus response to sexual violence mounted, and now it recommends that such cases go to a college-run grievance committee or law-enforcement officials.

Students often don’t report sexual assaults to the police because the assailants may be friends or acquaintances, and the victims may not want them arrested, said Linda Fairstein, former head of the sex crimes unit of the Manhattan District Attorney.

The involvement of alcohol or drugs may also delay reporting, which makes evidence and witnesses harder to find, said Fairstein, a senior adviser on sexual misconduct for the K2 Intelligence risk analytics firm in New York, who consults to colleges.

“People tend to think of these as situations in which both parties have consumed alcohol, communication is muddled, and things go a little too far,” Lisak said. “It’s seen as a kind of ‘rape lite.’”

Two Weeks

Mee had been at Occidental College (78100MF) about two weeks in 2009 when she went to a party and became intoxicated. A male student separated her from her friends, led her back to her room and raped her, she said.

The next night, the same student forced his way into her dorm room and assaulted her again, Mee said. At first, she didn’t want to report the incidents. Mee said she received little education about sexual assault when she started college and didn’t understand what it meant to give consent…

Capranica, the second victim, said she was attacked just before classes began her sophomore year in 2010. She suspected her assailant had given her drinks that might have been spiked.

It is entirely possible that these events occurred just as the two women described.  I have no evidence that they are lying, but look at some of the accusations they make.  One woman says he may have drugged her.  That is a very serious accusation.  Is it right that a woman should be able to make such a terrible accusation against a man with absolutely no evidence whatsoever to back up her claim?  Why isn’t this considered slander?  Perhaps he did drug her, and if so, shouldn’t the police be involved?  Why aren’t they?  And why is it seemingly okay with Capranica that they aren’t?

Mee and Capranica declined to name their attacker. Students are often reluctant to identify assailants publicly because of the risk of legal reprisals from them or their families, said Danielle Dirks, an Occidental sociology professor who helped Occidental students write their Title IX complaint….

Allred declined to name any of the women’s alleged assailants. She and her clients are investigating cases against the college, not the assailants, at this time, she said.

“We’re not asking the federal government to investigate whether a rape or a sexual assault took place,” she said in a telephone interview. “The accused is the college. We’re naming the colleges.”

Or maybe they are reluctant to identify him because there is no evidence that any crime was actually committed.   Gloria Allred tends to take cases that will make her even more famous, not cases that actually have much merit to them.

This is truly strange.  How is it that they are not pursuing cases against the people who allegedly committed the crimes?  If an assault took place and Ms. Allred has knowledge of said crime, is she not legally obligated to inform the police?

When Capranica first talked with school officials about reporting the incident, she said they discouraged her. They said her assailant wouldn’t be expelled even if he was found responsible, and she would still see him on campus. They also discouraged her from going to police, Capranica said.

The school officials told this student that she should not report a crime to the police?  They actually told her that if the boy was found to have truly assaulted her that he would not be expelled?  But this is an extremely serious charge!  Why does no one seem to bat an eye that Miss Capranica makes claims that really serious crimes have been committed – that she was drugged and raped, that she was encouraged to commit a crime by not reporting a crime to the police – but has no evidence and has not gone to the police?  Something is very, very wrong with this picture.

You know what?  I do not believe her version of events.  She provides no evidence other than her word against theirs.  We already know that women lie about sexual assault all the time.

After an Occidental student reports another for assault, both the alleged victim and perpetrator describe the incident in written statements, according to a college handbook. Designated school officials then investigate and interview witnesses.

When the school began investigating Capranica’s complaint, the male student admitted to assaulting her, according to Capranica and professors who helped her file her case. He was put on probation and told to write a book report…

What exactly did he do to her?  The definition of assault is so wide now that just saying something to someone, or making an online comment to them, is enough to be considered assault.  If he had actually committed a crime, wouldn’t the administration have reported this to the police?  The fact that he was only assigned a book report makes one wonder how serious the situation could really have been.

Ladies, if you were sexually assaulted, what would you do?  Personally, I would be on the phone to the police the moment I had gotten away.  In my case, that would most likely be to report that I had just shot a man who was assaulting me, but even if you aren’t a concealed-carry kind of a girl like me, wouldn’t you have been fighting tooth and nail?  Wouldn’t you be terrified?  Wouldn’t you be afraid that he would assault another woman if you didn’t contact the police right away?

Which leads to the next logical question: are the young women lying about it or are they just misled by campus sexual assault programs run by feminist professors who are also keeping one eye open for ways to advance their own careers?

Further Reading and Resources:

In the feminist Abilenian utopia, there will be no need for the police or courts. Feminists will be the police and courts.

306 thoughts on “Do campus sexual assault centers and programs create the so-called “rape culture”?

  1. Deep Strength

    When you base “rape” and “abuse” on feelings and not evidence then women can get “raped” and “abused” at anytime.

    Plus universities find men “guilty” if there’s 50.000000000000% it happened. lol.

  2. Frank

    Well if that’s not an advertisement for men to get into the trades instead of college I don’t know what is.

    I hear electrician jobs are booming!

  3. sunshinemary Post author

    The article from Ms. was from April and is so egregious that I feel I need to copy in the full text here. Please read this (highlighting mine):

    You never know what to expect entering a school bathroom, but one of the last things I expected was to be told that my school had a rapist.

    Maybe I shouldn’t have been so surprised. Someone in the U.S. is sexually assaulted every two minutes, and an estimated 350 women per college campus of 10,000 students are victims of sexual assault each year. But there it was, a glaring reminder that rape is a part of college life. Attached to the trashcan for sanitary products was a sticker reading “USC Has A Rapist,” along with a Tumblr URL. A little startled, I took a picture with my phone before heading to class.

    When I looked up the Tumblr on my laptop, I found Tucker Reed’s blog, “Covered in Band-Aids.” Reed is a University of Southern California alumna, comic-book lover and a woman who has outed her rapist. In February, she posted his full name and picture (alongside her own) on her Tumblr, as well as details of her rape.

    The ethics of outing your rapist are murky, and those who have spoken up have often been silenced. In 2010, Chloe Rubenstein posted a note to her Facebook page naming two American University students as rapists and warning her friends to “stay away at all costs.” She removed her Facebook note a few days later and wrote that she was deleting it for legal reasons, ending her message with “No Fear. No Secrets. 2010.”

    When she was 16 years old, Kentucky high school student Savannah Dietrich was sexually assaulted by two boys while she was passed out. After she took them to court, a judge said she was not allowed to talk about her assault or she would risk 180 days in prison and a $500 fine. Dietrich refused to comply with the judge’s order and tweeted out their names, saying “I’m not protecting anyone who made my life a living Hell.” She says she is glad she stood up for herself, and that she’ll never take the tweets down.

    Then there’s University of North Carolina sophomore Landen Gambill, who, after speaking to the media about her complaint to the U.S. Department of Education regarding university treatment of her sexual assault, was told by UNC’s Honor Court that she could be expelled for “disruptive or intimidating behavior” towards another student (aka her rapist). And guess what? She had never even said his name.

    Tucker Reed’s situation was complicated by the fact that her rapist was her boyfriend of two years. At first she tried to make sense of things, convincing herself that maybe he “loved [her] so much that he had to have [her],” but ultimately realizing that what she’d experienced was rape. She felt alone, Googling “dating your rapist” and coming up with no answers or advice. Now that she’s shared her story online, she says she gets daily messages from women and girls who’ve read her blog and “realized what happened to [her] happened to them.”

    Reed is not the first woman to name her rapist in a public forum, and she’s also not the first to experience the backlash. “It was disappointing to see some people I had considered friends take sides,” she said. “I had one girl message me saying something like, ‘Look, we both know what really happened, Tucker. There’s a big difference between sex you regret and rape.’ I’d hung out with this girl, watched movies at her apartment. She was a self-identified feminist.”

    The discussion on outing your rapist is a divisive one, but Reed has no regrets. In fact, she has strong words for those who believe she acted unethically: “The only ethical duty anyone had here to begin [with] was not to rape someone, and my attacker blew that. I would argue that my ethical obligation is to other women—to identify this individual for what he is.”
    Feminist activist Jessica Valenti believes that speaking up about rape can be “straight up heroic.” As she wrote in The Nation, “Making the world more uncomfortable for rapists—letting them know that there will be consequences that include public shaming—is something I’m entirely at ease with.” Feminist writer Jill Filipovic agrees, saying that remaining silent “muzzles” rape victims by putting “[their] narrative in the hands of someone who presumably knows better.” In 2010, feminist writer Germaine Greer made loud and clear her wish for an “online rapists’ register” and suggested that sexual bullies should be ordered to wear “a t-shirt with the word rapist on it” as a community service.

    Reed and her supporters (members of a sexual assault support and awareness group at USC) have submitted a letter to the university requesting changes to the Student Conduct Code. They believe that the current wording on sexual misconduct contributes to decisions that ultimately lead to lenient consequences for students guilty of rape. Currently, despite having confessions from her rapist that she surreptitiously taped, Reed says she has been unable to press charges through USC’s Office of Student Judicial Affairs and Community Standards.

    Like others before her, Reed is “using her full name and attaching her accusations to her own face and reputation,” and she wants other rape victims to remember that they are not the ones at fault. “You don’t owe the boy who hurt you a single thing,” she said. “You don’t owe him silence. If you feel you want the world to recognize that what happened to you was wrong, don’t let anyone try to talk you out of standing up and speaking out.”

    Readers, what do you think about outing rapists?

  4. Paul

    The women are told NOT to report it to police because they know that in some cases (maybe many cases) the sexual assault that she is reporting is nothing of the kind, no actual crime was committed. They understand this at the college campus. The goal here is not to stop sexual assault (per se) it is instead, for the school to use its authority over the male student (who is always in the wrong) and have it cost him (and his family) money and time. They can throw him out of school and keep his tuition dollars. They have the power to do that. But more importantly, they have the power to harm his future earning power by kicking him out of school and not letting him back in!

    If she goes to the police, it because a law enforcement matter and now the boy has “rights” that the school might not be able to infringe upon. There in lies the difference.

    But it could be WORSE for the girl. So she can report the assault to the police, they arrest the boy, he will (quite often) get an attorney, and if she doesn’t press charges then nothing will happen and the boy will still be a student. The school can do nothing because it became a police matter and charges were dropped, he is innocent and NOW he has legal power to do battle with the school if they (on their own authority) kick him out of school. If she DOES press charges, it better be an actual rape and she better get a conviction because she opens herself up to the possibility of being SUED FOR SLANDER by the boy and his family if this was simply “her regret.” Moreover, if the school gets involved and he is found not-guilty, the school can (and will) be sued. That is BAD ENERGY.

    So that is why they don’t want the girls reporting it to the police. It is about POWER. The school and residence life has ultimate power over the boy so long as they are in charge of everything that is happening. The moment she goes to government, then THEY have the power not only over the boy, but also over the girl and also over the school.

  5. Frank

    I’m going to post a picture of my landlord along with his name and other personally identifiable information on my Tumblr page (creatively called “My Tumblr Page”) because he broke into my apartment and sexually molested my goldfish. Where’s my proof of this? Shut up, that’s my proof.

    GOLDFISH POWER! And if you don’t support me unquestionably you’re a fishcist bigot.

  6. FuzzieWuzzie

    There’s enough in your post to level the assertion that college campuses are “hostile” enviornments for men and far worse than any feminist could address about “the bad old days”.
    In theory, men could file a class action suit against every institution that accepts federal funding, i.e. all of them.
    Since this is not likely, the best advice to students would be to avoid campuses and, thereby, minimize exposure. An added benefit would be reducing expense. Go online as much as possible!
    With current enrollment 60/40 female to male, this is only going to exacerbate it.

    Another thought, one of the first thing Hitler did after taking over was to close the universities.
    Back then, they actually taught critical thinking skills.

  7. Frank

    …but ultimately realizing that what she’d experienced was rape. [..] she says she gets daily messages from women and girls who’ve read her blog and “realized what happened to [her] happened to them.”

    I never knew rape was such a mystifying act of violence that it could take women lengthy periods of time from months to years to conclude, “Oh my goshy loo loo, all those bouts of unsatisfying sex with my beta boyfriend, why that was rape!”

    [ssm: Exactly! I noticed the same word…”realized”. Rape must be the only crime that can happen to you that you don’t realize is happening. If someone breaks into my house, I’m not going to need a year to figure it out. If someone vandalizes my car, I won’t need lengthy, expensive counseling sessions to get in touch with that fact. The word rape actually used to mean something. It referred to a really terrible crime, one which the victim would be totally aware of while it was happening, unless s/he had been beaten unconscious or drugged. Now the word rape is nearly meaningless, which is probably why it has been replaced with the even fuzzier term, sexual assault.]

  8. sunshinemary Post author

    It’s simply outrageous.

    Now, I have a lot of thoughts about what is going on with the rape culture hysteria. Some of it ties into some aspects of female sexuality that no one wants to think about. I’m not going to get into that here, but I’ve been discussing that with my husband and a handful of other readers off the record.

    The part that I do think is fair game for discussion is how sexual assault allegations are handled. If someone steals your computer on campus, do you call the police or do you contact the university? Easy, you call the cops. What if you are walking across campus and someone punches you in the fact out of nowhere? You call 911 of course.

    So why is rape different? Why is rape handled in an extra-legal manner? And how is it that women are not sued for slander when they create these tumblr sites accusing their boyfriends, with whom they were having consensual sex, of raping them?

  9. sunshinemary Post author

    You’re just realizing that now, Cail?

    Feminists really do appear to see men, especially white men, in the way that the grotesque picture at the top shows. They really seem to believe that you want to destroy women and non-white people and spend your lives plotting how to do so.

    I swear, I’m thinking of starting a blog called Why I Love White Men. :) But actually, I really like men in general, of every race, provided that they aren’t constantly blaming white people for every little thing that’s wrong with their lives. I don’t think most men want to rape me. I don’t think most men even notice me. I think most men, of all races, are pretty preoccupied and are mostly too busy to do all these terrible things they are supposedly thinking of doing every moment of the day.

  10. Frank

    Now, I have a lot of thoughts about what is going on with the rape culture hysteria.

    I think it’s boiled down to rape now meaning a woman having sex with a man she is not attracted to.

    And how is it that women are not sued for slander when they create these tumblr sites accusing their boyfriends, with whom they were having consensual sex, of raping them?

    It’s libel actually, not slander (libel is written defamation, slander is spoken) although the woman in question here is probably guilty of both. As far as I know the boyfriend has every right to bring a defamation suit, but once doing so the burden of proof is on the plaintiff, not the defendant. The boyfriend has to show through a “preponderance of the evidence” that he is not guilty of the actions she claims. Is that possible to do in a he said-she said scenario? I could see why a lawyer might have difficulty taking this case. They look for deep pockets in addition to a case they could win with relative ease, so a case of defamation has to offer the possibility that the school itself can be found culpable and dinged with damages. Money ultimately is what gets you justice (maybe) and most people don’t have it.

    [ssm: Ah, thanks for clarifying about libel and slander.]

  11. Frank

    BTW, this was one of the reasons my mom was on my ^&& on not dating women while I was in college, or as little as possible. She feared the real possibility that any girl I took interest in could suddenly turn on me like a rabid dog and accuse me of rape, even given my blue-pill, chivalrous nature (and perhaps especially given that nature.) It wouldn’t matter if it wasn’t true, she could easily spread the rumors around, put on a sob story, and my life would be over before it even began. I find it intriguing that back then the destructive elements of false rape allegations was already prevalent enough to be on my mom’s mind while I went to college.

    It also seems to suggest a correlation between rape culture and declining marriage rates. When it’s become so readily dangerous to simply get involved with women especially during our younger years, only the most alphas of alpha-ing alphas would traverse that minefield.

  12. Feminist Hater

    Fawk! Really makes me cringe. Now I know why I don’t really care what happens to feminists. Honestly, insanity has replaced sanity as the norm.

    It boils down to this. It’s easier to tarnish the reputation of a university or group and get settlement payments from them than it is to prove, beyond reasonable doubt, the commitment of an actual crime. It’s all about the dollar and status of defending the wimmenz.

  13. FuzzieWuzzie

    Frank,
    thanks for the reminder that the burden of proof is on the plaintiff. Couple that with that it is nearly impossible to prove a negative, then these defamers can get away with it scot free.
    Finally, even if you get a judgement, how likely are you to be paid if the defamer is in debt several tens of thousands of dollars and has no income?

  14. Cail Corishev

    You’re just realizing that now, Cail?

    That it’s that straightforward, yes. I guess I used to think they hated some of my traditional opinions, or that they saw me as a bit of a throwback who should be forgotten. But this year I realized that politics and opinions are beside the point. They hate me because I’m white, heterosexual, Christian, and male. When they look at me and see those four things (three of which I was born with, and the fourth is non-negotiable), they see the picture at the top of this post, and they hate me and want to destroy me. If I were a good liberal, they’d keep me around for a while as a useful idiot, but my days would still be numbered for who I am. I’d just get caught in the second or third purge instead of the first.

    Melodramatic as it sounds, I don’t know any more accurate way to put it. The people who run my country and its institutions hate me and can’t wait to dance on my grave, right after they take all my stuff.

  15. Frank

    The people who run my country and its institutions hate me and can’t wait to dance on my grave, right after they take all my stuff.

    Nothing a good old fashioned all out civil war can’t fix. I invite you to come join me in the Texan 54th Regiment as we march north to seize the beautiful state of Colorado and liberate it from all its hemp-toking, gun grabbing weenies.

  16. Cail Corishev

    [Feminists] really seem to believe that you want to destroy women and non-white people and spend your lives plotting how to do so.

    I’m not sure they really believe that; I think it’s more of a convenient fiction that gives them an excuse to gang up on the people they hate.

    It reminds me of school, when there would be one kid no one liked, so other kids would make up stories about how the target ate his boogers, or she was a slut who let all the boys at her old school finger her or something, and then we’d have an excuse to pick on him/her. You can’t just say, “Hey, let’s pick on Stan today”; you have to come up with a reason. Did we really believe the stories? Nah, they were just part of the process of humiliation and drawing the lines between gang and victim.

    I think that’s what’s happening here: natural bullies rise to the top of these organizations and get some power, and they look around and see people they don’t like — straight white Christian males — and they start coming up with reasons to attack them, like saying they’re a bunch of violent rapists. They don’t have any evidence of that or any reason to think it, but it serves the narrative, so they use it.

  17. FuzzieWuzzie

    It dawned on me what the end game is all about. Feminists want total, absolute, and retroactive control over all matters pertaining to sex and reproduction.
    Keeping it in your pants will be no defense.
    They’d make a heroine out of Potiphar’s wife. All men would be as slaves. Any punishment would be justified by the superior status of the woman, whether there was any offense or not.

  18. donalgraeme

    @ Fuzzie

    You are correct about what the end-game will look like. That is what the end result of the Curse of Eve leads towards: male enslavement at the hands of women. “Feminism” is a giant fitness test that has spiraled out of control, and threatens to bring everyone down with it.

  19. Feminist Hater

    Sure does seem like they support MGTOW. At least in a indirect way.

    Males like logic, if we can’t logically tell, via the written law, what an actual crime is and what actions have to be committed for an act to be determined as that crime, we basically become despondent. Well, most males, the others commit crimes with impunity because they don’t have the weakness of fearing punishment for crimes they didn’t commit.

  20. Feminist Hater

    The end game is an elite social class at the top, with all the resources, power, wealth and beauty; and an underclass, too stupid, poor, ugly and in constant struggle to stay alive, to threaten those at the top.

    Either the underclass become slaves or they will be exterminated, via force or starvation. When people support diversity, they support their own extermination. The only thing that binds people to their nations is their ability to relate to one another, this does not happen between tribes, only within.

  21. sunshinemary Post author

    It’s tempting to consider all kinds of apocalyptic scenarios when one contemplates such awful miscarriages of justice. But along with that, one wishes for something concrete to do. I wonder what would be an action that someone could take on this matter. For me, I just think it’s important to point it out when I see it and say, “No. I don’t believe you. I don’t think what you are describing is even rape.” I guess men have limited power in the modern day to do this, but maybe if more women would say it…if more women would stand against “rape culture” hysteria, maybe it would help.

    You know, there are parallels here to the Salem Witch Trials, aren’t there?

    It’s galling that our tax dollars create these sexual assault centers and pay the salaries of the feminists who run them.

  22. sunshinemary Post author

    Mass Hysteria (from wikipedia) — other names include collective hysteria, group hysteria, or collective obsessional behavior — in sociology and psychology refers to collective delusions of threats to society that spread rapidly through rumors and fear.

    I am going to begin using the term Rape Culture Hysteria regularly. A concrete action we could take would be using this meme and seeing if it can become part of the more general conversation.

  23. Retrenched

    If women are able to change their minds about an act of sex months or even years after the fact, and withdraw their consent retroactively, then literally every act of sex in the history of the human race has been rape, and all non-virgin men are uncharged, unconvicted rapists.

  24. Frank

    But along with that, one wishes for something concrete to do. I wonder what would be an action that someone could take on this matter.

    I believe as Christians our burden is light here as we’re called to plant seeds, not change the world. We can only but tell the truth and “contend for the faith once delivered unto the saints.” But beyond that leave it in God’s hands to bear the fruits and order our steps accordingly.

    When it comes down to it, most feminists are ultimately unsaved women who need the gospel.

  25. FuzzieWuzzie

    SSM,
    Women condemning this carries a heck of a lot more weight than men condemning it.
    The reason is simple. Women would be percieved as promoting justice while men would be seen to advance their own interests.

    There’s another theory being tossed around the Salem Witch Trials. Rotting rye generates hallucinogens. Since that was all they had to eat, they ate bread baked from it.
    There’s supposed to be another instance from the 19th century, either Seattle or Portland.

    “It’s galling that our tax dollars create these sexual assualt centers and pay the salaries of the feminists who run them.”
    What you just demonstrated here is the potential for schism in women voting as a block for the next election. Married women will not want their tax dollars going to support boondoggles that only benefit single women. I think Bill Price touched on this last fall.

  26. sunshinemary Post author

    Here is the one of the most common definitions of sexual assault:

    Any type of sexual behavior or contact where consent is not freely given or obtained and is accomplished through force, intimidation, violence, coercion, manipulation, threat, deception, or abuse of authority…[a]nd it manifests itself in three ways: The ‘acts’ can be physical, verbal, or psychological. In the age of bullying and the Internet, in the age of certain inappropriate speech and conduct, it just, it can be physical contact that connotes sexual assault, but it doesn’t necessarily have to be. It also can be verbal and/or psychological.

    Therefore, virgin men can also be guilty of sexual assault.

    Horrifying, isn’t it?

    Listen, the reason I have been writing more about rape and sexual assault hysteria lately is because I have felt called by God to do so. I have noticed a sharp uptick in evangelical Christianity’s participation in the sexual assault conversation and, once again, our spiritual leaders appear to be in lockstep with the feminists.

    I know that these are uncomfortable posts for people to read, and that most people are afraid to comment on them. And I think that’s wise. Even expressing a dissenting opinion on this subject can be dangerous in our current legal climate. And for posts on sexual assaults, I will suspend my rule about not commenting under multiple handles without checking with me first; if you feel like you have something to say about this but want to do so anonymously, feel free to post anonymously.

  27. Pingback: When Push Comes to Shove | Donal Graeme

  28. Samm

    It deeply saddens me and embarrasses me that you say you were called by God to write this post.

    YOU are a part of the problem.

    [ssm: In what way am I part of the problem?]

  29. donalgraeme

    Any type of sexual behavior or contact where consent is not freely given or obtained and is accomplished through force, intimidation, violence, coercion, manipulation, threat, deception, or abuse of authority…[a]nd it manifests itself in three ways: The ‘acts’ can be physical, verbal, or psychological. In the age of bullying and the Internet, in the age of certain inappropriate speech and conduct, it just, it can be physical contact that connotes sexual assault, but it doesn’t necessarily have to be. It also can be verbal and/or psychological.

    That definition above can be twisted to mean anything I want it to mean. And I mean anything. Here is a shorter and clearer definition for people:

    Sexual assault is when a woman considers an act or omission by a man to be sexual in some way, and she doesn’t like it in some form or fashion.

  30. FuzzieWuzzie

    I keyed in “unconstitutionally vague” and look what came up:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Void_for_vagueness

    It seems we have the law behind us on this one.

    Multiple handles? Does this mean that Gen. Gloria Steinem gets to come out of retirement?
    Whooo Boy! Fur and feathers are going to fly!

    [ssm: Fuzzie! Was General Steinem you?? LOL! You’re hilarious.]

  31. Fuckoff

    This is fucking disgusting. You are so ignorant. So offensive to those that have experienced this horrible trauma. You are truly foul.

  32. Feminist Hater

    Oh don’t worry SSM. You’re now official a rape apologist! Yay! Welcome to the club. Only a few more naughty clubs for you to join and your journey of hatred will be complete. Yalalalalalalalala!

  33. Frank

    Therefore, virgin men can also be guilty of sexual assault.

    Tarnations! My evil diabolical scheme to sexually assault women with impunity and without consequence by practicing chastity has been foiled!!!

    [ssm: Frank, although the article at GOMI is about what I wrote, notice how the comments are all about…you! Frank, you piss women off with a level of skill that I don’t believe I have ever encountered in another man.]

  34. FuzzieWuzzie

    SSM,
    Treat it as their version of a compliment. For what it’s worth, they’re wicked and you’re righteous. Of course, they’re going to howl.

  35. sunshinemary Post author

    I want to state the obvious.

    I believe there is such a thing as real rape. Real rape is when someone overpowers another person and has sex with them against their will. It is a violent crime which should be reported to the police. If it is happening to you, you know that it is happening. Real rape is devastating for many reasons, some of which I intend to discuss in the future. People who are guilty of committing real rapes should face serious punishment.

    By and large, what is discussed in these campus “rape culture” hysteria articles bears no resemblance to real rape.

  36. Frank

    BTW, trauma can now be defined as the result of a man approaching a woman in public and saying something obscene and disgustingly vulgar like, “Hello!” or “Hasn’t the weather been lovely lately?” or “Have you ever tried a blend from the clover machine at Starbucks?”

    I tell ya, where would we be without the pharmaceutical industry peddling drugs to alleviate the suffering women endure as a result of these truly godawful traumatic experiences with hapless betas.

  37. CoffeeCrazed

    Near as I can tell, Title IX is the first step in some feminists goal of putting the burden of proof of rape accusations on the offender. I have read it somewhere that some would like to see “innocent until proven guilty” revoked for alleged rapists.

    As Frank said, “the trades are looking good!”. Coming soon to post-secondary education? 80+% female enrollment, cuz what guy wants to roll a four-sided die to be named a sexual predator?

    The social media justice system is out of hand, too. In Canada we have the case of Rehtaeh Parsons, who killed herself after experiencing broadcast of photos taken during a drunken sex ‘event’. I am not sure yet if anyone has been charged, but the girl’s mother immediately took to social media to out the little bastards.

    Her father has blogged on Huff Po declaring the uncharged perps as rapists. Anonymous outed the perps, even though one of the named was not there.

    A female journalist was roundly criticized for daring to highlight various holes in the whole affair, such as the girl refusing to leave the bedroom in which she was ensconced with the “perps”, when both a friend and the friend’s mother made in person pleas.

  38. earl

    Jeez after reading what colleges do to brainwash people…now I’m going to be afraid of guys wanting to rape me.

  39. Feminist Hater

    Sexual Assault: When a man, with or without intent, does willfully or unwillfully commit any act or omission, which might be sexual or non-sexual, depending on the subjective nature of the victim’s mind, which causes any woman in a 50 mile radius to be offended, mentally or emotionally harmed at the time of such an act or omission; or who comes to such realisation, post act or omission for the duration of said man’s life, that she has been most shamefully dealt with, shall be guilty, without due process, to a most heinous crime and shall be sentenced to no fewer than 10 life sentences, served consecutively.

  40. Frank

    Frank, although the article at GOMI is about what I wrote, notice how the comments are all about…you! Frank, you piss women off with a level of skill that I don’t believe I have ever encountered in another man.

    Naaaah, they’re raging because they’re really all afraid of their love for me. Could you blame them though? I’m pretty awesome. *checks hair in mirror*

  41. ray

    back in the mid-Nineties a bunch of us were around the campfire one night, at a friend’s house in the Cascades, and the talk turned to the problem of rape and sexual harrassment on Oregon’s state-university campuses

    the women informed us that this problem was widespread and out-of-control, that men were getting away with anything they wanted, preying on helpless campus females etc etc

    this surprised me, given that in those years i was living two blocks from OSU, and i hadnt seen (nor heard of) university women being accosted (two OSU females, in fact, were housemates, and they seemed rather unaffected by the clear and everpresent danger of Sexual Assault, having never mentioned it)

    anyway, one of the moms around the campfire was considering sending her daughter to UO in Eugene, but had recently read a huge, front-page article in The Oregonian (state’s largest periodical) about how sexual harrassment and rape were running amok in Oregon schools and universities (i vaguely recall the article; it was a series)

    these facts didnt match up, so the next week i called both UO Campus Police and the Campus PIO, identified myself as a journalist, and asked for recent data (or related info) concerning ANY TYPE of sexual assault on their campus

    Campus Police reported that there were NO sexual assaults on campus — of ANY TYPE — and that there hadnt even been a REPORT of such an assault for them to investigate

    so i asked to look at previous year stats, and we kept going back, year-after-year, and they kept giving me the same answer — no reports of sex assaults

    i then confirmed with Campus PIO — nupe, no sexual assaults

    so, as ever, the Medea and Government and Womans Mouth Network had created an enormous Crimewave Against Females out of absolutely nothing . . . except their own malice and deceit, their own desire to criminalize and demonize ALL MALES as a way of grasping even more power than their matriarchy had already awarded

    of course i didn’t report my findings to the woman who was considering sending her daughter to OU — then she would have resented me for telling the truth and dispelling such very useful (and empowering!) lies

    back in those years, i was just beginning to discover that everything America’s government, media, and schools were telling me about females and males was a lie

    the US matriarchy can only be maintained via the constant degradation and criminalization of maleness and masculinity, the constant production of more male Perpetrators, Abusers, Manboys, Criminals, Slackers, and Potential Rapists

    the western female is maintained, and maintains herself, in a constant state of pseudo-assault, or of potential assault, an EverThreat serving as an infallible method for “necessitating” the vast GynoGulag of male-destroying government, NGOs, corporations, codes, schools, churches, mancages, Medea, and so on

    it’s win/win for females, as they:

    1) receive the constant attention they crave (better check in with your SmartPhone every fifteen minutes, Cupcake! ’cause everybody knows how PRECIOUS you are, and how EVIL those males are)

    2) continue to expand their relative legal and extra-legal supremacy over males

    US kulture was already over-run with this malevolent, self-serving fakery decades ago, but the Fempire never lets up — e.g., Yahoo News actually used to run some news, but recently theyve given up on facts and reality altogether, as facts and reality are Ickily Male, and do not always serve to empower nor enrich women and girls

    the Bastards! icky bastard FACTS! shitty hateful TRUTH!

    fortunately we’ll soon have Cupcake’s Law Against Hate Speech, to deal with that!

    nowdays, all Yahoo runs is:

    1) celebrity crapola for females (how many turds each Kardashian woman shits each day, and who wore what outfit to what celebrity event)

    2) “stories” that repeat for weeks about some alleged sexual assault, happening somewhere on the planet — it serves the Gynogulag’s purposes for us to hear over and over about the Burundi woman who was raped, or the girl held in The Evil Male’s Dungeon and assaulted for ten years

    this is the “news” that women WANT to hear — they get their secondhand titillation jollies w/o having to buy another “romance” book, AND the profitable fear-the-male agenda is re-inforced . . . resulting, quite promptly, in more new “laws” and guidelines and procedures and punishments and prisons for . . . well not for the Good Gender, that’s for damn sure

    this Hatefest now has gone unchallenged for so many decades, that a MASSIVE government and extra-governmental Sistem has been institutionalized to “protect” females and to punish and hurt males

    indeed, the largest “industry” in Amerika now is the persecution, in myriad forms, of The Evil Male . . . and almost everybody in mainstream culture, including the “churches,” is in for a cut of the action

    the US spawned a new order of evil — turning Eve’s sin of rebellion and usurpation into the foundational spiritual, social, and legal structure for the entire planet

    this evil was re-packaged to be impossibly attractive to females (they get power and money, plus the pretense of moral/spiritual righteousness) and extremely difficult for males to oppose . . . bc after all, you’re not IN FAVOR of raping girls on campus . . . ARE YOU?

    you’re not IN FAVOR of domestic violence . . . ARE YOU?

    [repeat endlessly]

    those who accepted and profited from the past 40 years of Gynogulag — including the churches — also will share in the “rewards” of her treachery, and those rewards will be both current and eternal

    cheers

  42. holyhandgrenadeofantioch

    The way to deal with angry feminists is to mock them. It makes their heads explode.

  43. earl

    “The way to deal with angry feminists is to mock them. It makes their heads explode.”

    Such as after a long tirade full of emotions and them not really saying anything…you respond.

    “Ya done?”

  44. FuzzieWuzzie

    SSM,
    I’m not Gen. Gloria Steinem. Whoever it is has a brilliant, razor sharp wit and does a decent job of proofing comments before posting.

    “The way to deal with feminists is to mock them. It makes their heads explode.”
    Satire is the bard’s most powerful weapon. You have my full agreement, but Jake and Elwood have a different idea:

    It’s just plain wrong to conflate feminists with Nazies. After reading Albert Speer’s book, the philosophies pertaining to women are in complete opposition.

  45. Pingback: Do campus sexual assault centers and programs create the so-called "r*pe culture"? | Viva La Manosphere!

  46. theshadowedknight

    To the question in the headline, the answer is yes. The military has issues with rape culture hysteria after accepting the absurdity of the current definition of rape. False rapes are occurring throughout all branches as women realize that they can avoid responsibility for any sexual episodes. Everyone at the top is losing their minds because they still take it at face value. This is a beast created by awareness campaign spam and lack of sanity checks at higher levels.

    American women are worthless in aggregate. While some of them still manage to be tolerable, the sheer danger they pose makes it difficult for them to be enjoyable. They are dangerous, flighty, and irresponsible, and all it takes is one bad choice to subject some man to months of trouble, and thousands of dollars in expenses and lost wages.

    When all we is rape, only rapists will have sex. Have fun, girls. I have better things to do.

    The Shadowed Knight

  47. UCB

    Yes, yes, and double yes. And now with Obama’s DOJ attempting rewriting the laws to make any “unwelcome” conduct punishable under existing laws for sexual harassment and assault, it’s only going to get worse. http://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/columns/2013-05-26/obamas-sex-harassment-campus-rules-over-top.html

    I’ve already seen first hand the disastrous effects the “anti-rape rape culture” has had on the military. I’ve known two people personally who beat sexual assault charges when it came out that they’d never even had sex with the girls who leveled the charge against them. And we wonder why so many young men are dropping out of the workforce…

  48. The Ringmistress

    It really is revolting that sex that’s regretted after the fact gets to be called rape. It destroys the proper sense of horror for a violent crime.

    And the really crazy thing? If you tell the story of St. Maria Goretti who resisted rape at knife point and allowed herself to be killed rather than commit a sin, people respond that she should have let it happen and pressed charges later. So we should allow real rape but punish the hell out of drunk college boys who have a lapse in judgement with a girl who seemed willing? How long oh Lord must we suffer…

  49. Mammon

    Cunts like you are the reason why no one wants any part of Christianity anymore you fat ugly cumbucket twat. Go to hell (well, there isn’t one so just go fuck yourself with a rusty pipe)

    [ssm: I originally deleted this comment, but I decided to restore it because it is evidence that one of the GOMI feminists sexually assaulted me. At least, according to their definition.]

  50. Deep Strength

    I feel bad for most of these people.

    They can’t seem to separate out the logical argument that:

    1. There are false rape reports. These false rape reports actually DIMINISH the seriousness of real rape.
    2. No one here is disagreeing that real rape is repugnant.

    The very fact that we have to say “real rape” instead of just rape is demoralizing.

    Of course, liberals don’t really argue with facts and reason anyway, so I guess it’s a moot point.

  51. an observer

    The end game is an elite social class at the top, with all the resources, power, wealth and beauty; and an underclass, too stupid, poor, ugly and in constant struggle to stay alive, to threaten those at the top.

    Don’t we have that already?

    The afc gets schooled in liberal doctrine for twelve years, takes a worthless degree that costs tens of thousands, then gets to be a cubicle drone for megacorp pty ltd.

    If he so much as looks the wrong way at hot workplace chick, its off to diversity and sensitivity training.

    If he marries, he is likely to have a sexless, loveless relationship until she ejects him for whatever cash and prizes she can take.

    The church clucks synpathetically at her and wags the finger at him.

    Meanwhile, hes been eating the standard american diet of sugar, hfcs and genetically modified crops that has made him hypertensive, with high blood pressure and prediabetic. His physician is constantly on his case to lose weight, and though he eats lots of grains and does tedious cardio workouts on the cross trainer, it refuses to budge.

    His money buys fewer goods and services each week. He cheers for a football team, and always felt proud for ‘our boys’ that make world safe for democracy (one killing at a time).

    His children have turned against him since the divorce, but he only sees them once a fortnight, though lately that has slipped to once a month as get togethers are more awkward.

    Hes been bypassed for promotion at work, by a young single woman with weak technical skils, but who is very good at oral persuasion techniques.

  52. an observer

    I’m going to go ahead and guess here that you’ve never been raped.

    Men get financially and emotionally raped every day in the family court. Its so common, no-one notices anymore.

  53. sunshinemary Post author

    My regular readers may be wondering why I am allowing some of the comments from the GOMI feminists. Here is why.

    Does anyone remember this exchange from a few weeks ago? A feminist named Stacey showed up to call Julian O’Dea a jackass because of how he had dealt with an incidence of disrespect from his wife. Later, she apologized to him and wrote:

    I wish there was a way for people of opposing views like us to have a healthy dialogue, but I know there’s not. Both sides are too stubborn to listen to the other, and honestly, a desire to hold strongly to your convictions is something I admire.

    To which I responded:

    I would like you to notice something. Many of us here will often disagree with one another on some point. We debate these things back and forth, which is why the comment threads are so long. Notice one thing that almost never happens here; you will rarely see us calling each other names. For the most part, we dialogue back and forth. No one broke out the swearing and refusal to listen until you showed up. Notice how politely my commenters responded to you, even after you called one of them a jackass. They disagreed with you without resorting to name-calling. They did not allow their emotions to rule them.

    Your initial behavior here in your first comment is typical among feminists. I know this because my site gets linked to feminist sites all the time, and the crux of their argument against me is essentially some variant of this:

    Oh my god, holy hell, that fucking bitch has no right to say that shit. I want to fucking leave this planet. Someone should report her ass to wordpress, that’s fucking hate speech.

    The entire argument is to call me names and to say that I have no right say these things. It is your side which prevents any sort of dialogue at all, healthy or otherwise.

    I am not saying this to shame you, truly. I appreciate your taking the time to weigh in. But your assertion that both sides are too stubborn to listen and both sides cannot have a healthy dialogue is incorrect. It is your side that always wishes to shut the dialogue down, and when it cannot, comes in screeching swear words and rude names, or yelling about hate speech.

    The comments I am allowing exemplify my point to Stacey perfectly. Of course, there are other comments that I have deleted that exemplify it even better, but they are too foul for a Christian blog. For example, I declined to approve Mammon’s comment, but s/he wrote (redactions are mine):

    C*nts like you are the reason why no one wants any part of Christianity anymore you fat ugly c*mbucket tw@t. Go to hell (well, there isn’t one so just go f-ck yourself with a rusty pipe).

    This appears to be the crux feminists’ arguments. No logic, no facts, no reasoning, no debate, no discussion…just name calling and temper tantrums.

    Edit: I restored Mammon’s deleted comment, since Hannah pointed out to me that technically, by the feminist definition, Mammon has sexually assaulted me.

  54. theshadowedknight

    Isa, based on the “rape” definition used by feminist ideologues, I suspect that you have never been raped, either. You may think, or more accurately, “FEEEL” like you have. You would be wrong. You have been lied to.

    Go away. We care not for your cringing attempts to shame. Your immoral judgment is not going to change our minds. Add something of worth to the conversation, or stay silent and learn.

  55. Samm

    1) You don’t always know rape is happening. There could be drugs involved, the victim could have developmental delays, it could be a child that doesn’t understand what’s going on, and more.
    2) You don’t always report it to the police (or anyone) because of people like you who don’t take these claims seriously. They’re left doubting themselves and blaming themselves for something that any rational person would know isn’t their fault.
    3) Typically they tell college campus security/police first because those are the immediate people they feel most comfortable with AND if THEY are doing THEIR job right, they contact the local authorities on behalf of the student.
    4) OF FUCKING COURSE MEN CAN SEXUALLY ASSAULT SOMEONE EVEN IF THEY’RE A VIRGIN. This really can’t be shocking to you. There are other things to do to a woman besides vaginal penetration with your penis. You are not stupid. (I’m not sorry I got upset with this one, but it’s personal.)
    5) You saying something like “Gee guys, there’s more prevention education and more rape now. It must be all those crazy ass people perpetrating “rape culture hysteria” making people report false rape” makes about as much sense as me saying “all this talk about preventing skin cancer must be the reason why skin cancer is more prevalent.” OR, you could come to the conclusion that most logical people come to and realize that this education/prevention/discussion only helps women that have been raped come forward. There is less shame associated with being a rape/assault victim. That, and institutions are legally bound to report rapes in their annual Clery report. These incidents are recorded more because of new laws and more opportunities for women to come forward.
    6) Some colleges DO handle it really poorly, but for you to place that blame on the victim is absurd.

    This isn’t me or anyone else censoring you — we’re critiquing you and your seemingly twisted point of view.

    [ssm: Really? And how exactly should one then interpret this comment by littledog at GOMI?

    Conservatives and misogynists regularly interpret the First Amendment’s protection of free speech as guarantee to say whatever the fuck they want without criticism or consequences from other private citizens.]

  56. an observer

    Tsk,

    Its a tactic to delegitimise any comments from the ‘unraped’.

    The facts are that those icky and supposedly sexually predatory beta men despised by all women have built the safest, most advanced and luxurious civilisation the world has ever seen.

    A hundred years of white knighting and feminism has driven that same civilisation to the precipice.

    If western women feel unsafe now, look towards argentina or venezuela for a glimpse of the future. Or try Detroit, for something closer.

  57. CoffeeCrazed

    Is
    I was forced to commit a sexual act with a stranger when I was a teenager. I won’t call it rape out of respect for rape victims. I was threatened with my life in the process.

    I also have had false accusations of assault made against me.

    I have experience in both corners. I believe that the feminist agenda to hogtie men is reprehensible, and worse there are statistical fabrication used to do it.

  58. Tricket

    I agree with you SSM.

    Now that I’m a traitor to all the female college students of the world…

    Every time I hear a rape story proceeded by “I was forced too drink so much that I blacked out” my blood starts boiling. No one can FORCE you to drink. YOU are the one in control of your actions and frankly if you’re too stupid to realize that consuming alcohol can lead to less than favorable consequences, then you shouldn’t be drinking at all.
    Oh wait, society is in this messed up state of believing a drunken man is in control of his actions and thoughts, but not a drunk woman. Silly me, I’m an idiot. How dare I believe alcohol can mess up the thinking of BOTH genders…

    “Rape culture” is nothing but a load of garbage that’s meant to degrade everyone involved. It’s just another means to uproot the idea that women have some level of responsibility to protect themselves. That there are in fact activities you can engage in that have negative consequences. That the world is not all cupcakes and unicorn rainbow farts, and that you can’t rely on every Tom, Jane and Harry to give a crap about your well-being. It devalues men, devalues women, devalues real rape victims (Like you SSM, I believe real rape is violent rape) and devalues society. How constantly producing the idea that half the population is out to rape the other half is in anyway helpful is beyond my comprehension.

    Personally, I think it’s good you wrote this article because it is INDEED something that needs to be addressed. “Rape culture” hysteria helps no one. It just makes people paranoid and blind to real dangers. It makes it harder to identify the real criminals. It screws over everyone, and THAT is a BIG problem.

  59. sunshinemary Post author

    Don’t worry about being a gender traitor, Tricket. If you express an opinion that goes against the feminist herd, they will just accuse you of being a man posing as a woman. For example, this recent comment at GOMI by reader eeee:

    Do we have any serious proof that Sunshine Mary is written by a woman? This is not the first, and sadly I suspect it will not be the last, thing that has made me think, “This is not a woman’s voice” – and I am usually more than willing to accept that someone is who and what they say they are, even on the internet.

    There are just so many disconnects – not this post in and of itself, because TBH I do know several women in my day to day life who firmly believe that, say, a husband cannot rape a wife, if you’ve been drinking then you brought it on yourself, if you’ve had sex with a person then nothing that person ever does to you can be sexual assault, etc. It’s more of a cumulative effect, in that every time the blog crosses my radar I have to spend longer and longer asking myself if I can really believe the blogger is a woman.

  60. Jessica

    I always stay away from conversations about rape. First because I don’t feel educated enough about it to contribute. I have never been raped nor has anyone I know ever been raped. I have been a victim of abuse however, at the hands of my father and a boyfriend. So I hesitate to judge simply because I just cant comprehend why a woman would claim rape when it didn’t happen. I can’t wrap my mind around why a woman would claim something so horrific happened when it didn’t…. Abuse of any kind is horrible. Maybe I am just completely naive, but I just don’t want or like to believe that false rape claims happen with such regularity. :(

  61. ANorthernObserver

    @Jessica – why falsely claim rape? Because the alternative is to take responsibility for your own actions, and for some women that’s not an allowable option when they can “safely” blame – and thereby shift responsibility to – someone else.

  62. Hannah

    @Deep Strength:
    “Of course, liberals don’t really argue with facts and reason…”
    @SSM:
    “This appears to be the crux feminists’ arguments. No logic, no facts, no reasoning, no debate, no discussion…just name calling and temper tantrums.”

    Liberals have the same mo as women. Feminist men have been re-programmed to deny their God-given rational minds.

    Unfortunately a women rising above her emotions and feelings is then subject to having her sex challenged… It’s a compliment SSM, you’re operating on a higher level :)

    They’ve noticed you use logic, facts, reason and therefore you must be male???
    Hehe point proven right there … the world is run on feelings and emotions and we wonder why we’re in trouble??? Wow we really need to get back to Patriarchy asap!

    This is particularly distasteful but reinforces a point:
    “go f-ck yourself with a rusty pipe”
    Well I’m sorry to hear you’re subjected to such base hatred.
    But according to the new-improved rape definition well it would appear you’ve got grounds for a court-case right there….!
    Honestly what are they thinking.
    Oh wait… thinking is overrated. No wait… thinking is MANLY and therefore distasteful, evil even. Let’s just live on a diet of emotions, feelings and empathy.
    (Little wonder type2 Diabetes is rife!)

    Tricket, you’re smart to back the winning team – you’re no traitor.
    Man will overcome – God is in control.

    Meanwhile, it’s no surprise to me that this is the first blog I commented on SSM, I knew I wasn’t made for Mummy/Cooking naval gazing…. but well your posts really pack a punch!
    Yikes…
    I have many thoughts to share on this particular topic but we’ll see.

  63. Ton

    This nation turned its back on Founding Stock many generations before anyone of us was born. The attack on all White men, WASP or not, is much more recent.

    It really was over in 1860 when yankees decided tariff money meant more then individual liberty, States rights and the lives of White men. They promptly raise an army of forgein born men to wage war on Southern women and children who were the direct descendants of Washignton, Jefferson, Madison and other revolutionary war veterans.

    This was all set in motion way back when, in a war supported by Marx.

    If we are all so stupid why cannot those on the other side refute our position in 3-4 sentences that do not include profanity or insults?

    I have to wonder if my success with college age women is in part due to college age men fearing these “rape” accusations and the bogus campus court systems

  64. Ton

    In the two cases of false rape allegations I know about, #1 the girl was afraid her father would find out and #2 the whore’s husband found out. That’s why women make these claims, so they do not have to take responsibility for their actions.

    The more I think about these things, the more convinced I am woman are not moral agents and should be returned to the legal position of property, either their fathers, or closest male blood relative or the property of their husband. Rape would then also be a crime against the property rights of the man who owns her.

  65. Hannah

    @Ton:
    “woman are not moral agents and should be returned to the legal position of property, either their fathers, or closets male blood relative or the property of their husband. Rape would then also be a crime against the property rights of the man who owns her.”

    Sure sounds biblical to me.

  66. with love

    Jesus said that we should love one another. I send you love. I send love to all women and men–those who are victims of rape, and those who fail to believe those who have been victims of rape. Jesus also said that we should not cast the first stone. I am sad to see that this blog seems to have cast more stones than it has given love to others. I will pray for you.

  67. Wanderlust

    Your ignorance of social and sexual dynamics, and the facts around rape, is simply stunning. This post is such an insult to anyone who has ever experienced sexual violence. I hope that, unlike me, they don’t make the poor decision to read it.

  68. ANorthernObserver

    @Ton – I’m not sure if this is an issue with women being moral agents, or a legal system which allows their behavior to continue unchecked, if not outright encouraged. If a person who happens to be a woman sees a way to obtain an advantage, the “rational” thing to do is take it – just like some men are doing the rational thing by opting out of the whole system.

  69. Dr. Illusion

    It’s blindingly obvious that if it takes you reading someone’s blog about rape to realize you were raped, you were not raped. Case closed on that one.

    I have been the victim of a false rape allegation. It cost me 10,000 dollars to beat the charge. No consequences for the accuser. Take a good look at that number. 10,000 dollars. I’m pretty well off, but that’s still a significant ding. I could have used that money for a two week vacation on an island somewhere. Instead I was arrested, despite telling the police I did nothing. Oh yeah, it cost me 2,500 dollars to bail myself out. So make that 12,500 dollars. All because a woman made a groundless accusation.

    To this day, my picture is still on the internet as being charged with rape, even though I was acquitted. To work for my current employer, I had to get documentation proving my innocence of the charge from my attorney and sign a waiver.

    Yet these feminists act like false accusations are no big deal. Ruining a man’s life is no big deal, if you are angry at him (in my case, she was pissed because I refused to have sex with her at a party. I refused her in front of everyone and she was embarrassed. When she sobered up she called the police.)

    If these idiot feminists are going to keep blathering about rape culture, it’s our duty to provide a counter argument and inject logic into the situation. Thanks for this post.

    [ssm: Thank you for sharing this story. I would really like to hear some of the angry feminists who are reading my blog tonight respond to this. False rape accusations are real. They harm real people with real lives. Hey feminists, what say you? Had this man no right to due process? Why was the woman believed despite there being no evidence? Before you accuse me of throwing stones, how about if you consider whether the people at whom I’m throwing the stones are actually guilty of something?]

  70. FuzzieWuzzie

    I’m happy that Trinket found her way here. As for the ones who are hurling empty invective…
    Maybe a long walk off a short pier. A short swim sounds like a great idea. It’s hot here.

    As for “rape culture”, if you keep it up, you’re only going to alienate the men you could make a life with. Cads won’t care. I’m still trying to imagine how much adverse experience it takes to put a man off women, but that’s exactly what’s happening out there.

  71. Cail Corishev

    Apparently the most consistent trait of liberal commenters is a lack of comprehension skills and a refusal to read any preceding comments so they can get in on the discussion. They just hop on the soap box, yell a slogan or two, and hop off. How helpful.

    The end game is an elite social class at the top, with all the resources, power, wealth and beauty; and an underclass, too stupid, poor, ugly and in constant struggle to stay alive, to threaten those at the top.

    I don’t think they actually have an end-game in mind, though what you describe is always the end result. But when you have a who/whom ideology, you don’t have to have an end-game. Your focus is on giving the right Who (yourself and people like you, of course) power over the right Whom (people who disagree with you), and once you achieve that, everything will just work out and life will be rainbows and unicorns. You believe people are inherently good, so you don’t need a plan beyond that, because once the right Whos are in charge, you know the answers will come easily without those evil Whoms stopping you.

  72. TMyf

    Okay, I disagree with some of this, however I am hoping I can ask a question. You say that you do not believe these women because there is not enough proof. Proof is very hard in these cases. What proof would you be happy with?

    Also I do not believe being drunk and then regretting sex is rape. But what do you think of being unconscious and someone having sex with you?

    [ssm: If the person is unconscious, they cannot give consent. But this is extremely difficult to prove, no? Just “not remembering” it doesn’t mean the person was truly unconscious, as anyone who has ever had a few tequila shots too many will tell you. There would have to be some kind of witness or confession. Leaving aside the idea of rape, I have a question: do you believe that women bear any responsibility for their own safety?]

  73. Ton

    If you are easily lead astray ( as SSM.said in the other thread, women are this way because of the influence of men) or require strong legal frame works to keep you in check, you are not a moral agent.

    Women are either responsible for their actions and thinking or they are not. Understanding you’ve been lied to and changing the direction of your life are the action a of moral agent. Blaming others is not the action of moral agent. continuing to buy into the lies and propaganda are also not the actions of mature adults and moral agents.

  74. freebird

    The actual rate of incidence is so minute as to be almost imperceptible.

    Identical to murder.
    About 2 on the thousand.

    The entire US military only had 386 convictions last year,the 24,000-28,000 number was fabricated out of thin air.
    It is clear these raype statistic LIE are all about a political power trip.

    If 1/4 or 3/4 of women were actually being raped,there would be men open carrying rifles upon every street corner.

    It would be a war zone.

    These lying feminazi’s make me puke sick.

    They ought to be in Gaol for life.

    Sick,man-hating misandrists.

    Ball cutting castrators.

    Then after they hit the wall,they bemoan
    “Where have all the good men gone.”

    Away from you cupcake,far away from you.

    P.S
    Married women darn well ought to be concerned,it is your husband that will be hit with these life destroying lies,and when he hurts,you hurt.

    Same goes for sons,
    mother come to care when it’s son,sometimes.

    Mostly just when it affects a woman’s personal resources.

    Pretty much a genocide on the white race.

    Let’s import illegal,they bring new young life.

    And are easy to control,not demanding liberty,or inconvenient stuff like that.
    (Rights)

  75. Ton

    Nothing in my life experiences has lead me to believe the majority of wives care about husbands or that the majority of mothers care about sons.

    The notion that women should care or do care is more delusional magic thinking.

  76. Ton

    Also it seems to church girls are the lest concerned about these things.not sure why, but my guess is they think God wouldn’t let bad things happen to them or to good men so anything bad that happens is the fault of a bad man.

  77. ANorthernObserver

    @Ton – Blaming others is not the action of moral agent.

    Blaming others is a behavior not exclusive to women…shall we make all people of either gender into ‘property’ then?

  78. Jessica

    @Ton

    (off topic rant :/ )
    Oh that breaks my heart… I have an 11 month old son and he and my husband own my heart and soul… they mean more to me than anything in the entire world. I could devote every second of my entire life to them and it wouldn’t be enough to show how much God has blessed me to have them in my life. I am not trying to brag; I am completely undeserving of so many of God’s gifts to me.
    I am so determined to raise my son knowing that men are WONDERFUL and he should be respected by his wife, not belittled.

  79. an observer

    Ton,

    Women are by their nature net consumers of wealth.

    Whether they have moral agency has been hashed out elsewhere. My vote is yes, but i recognise the nature of female sexuality for what it is.

    The greater depression – a term coined by doug casey – may lead to a forced adoption of a kind of patriarchy, as men are the inventors, the creators, the wealth producers. Jobs in hr and media will be the first to go.

  80. Ton

    Most men should not be vested with power outside their home, like the vote. We can not live in or create a perfect world but we can create a much better society by returning women and children to their proper legal status.

    Nor do I expect many to agree with me. Liberalism is rampant among the so-called conservatives/ traditionalists.

    [ssm: I agree with you.]

  81. SarahsDaughter

    The more I think about these things, the more convinced I am woman are not moral agents and should be returned to the legal position of property, either their fathers, or closest male blood relative or the property of their husband. Rape would then also be a crime against the property rights of the man who owns her. – Ton

    Amen

    [ssm: I second that amen!]

  82. Hannah

    Life is not fair.
    Many church ladies don’t like hearing this. They are naive to the point of denial.

    “…You speak as one of the foolish women speaks. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?…”
    Job 2:10

    “…for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.”
    Matthew 5:45

    It is our responsibility to protect our family’s boundaries.

  83. theshadowedknight

    These false rape apologists come here and say that it is because of better education that all these rapes are being discovered and discussed. How many would stand the test of the old rape definition? What they call education, we call indoctrination and redefinition. So, no, girls, “education” does not support the increase. That is a false screen to misdirect the easily led.

    The Shadowed Knight

  84. Hannah

    @Jessica,
    “I always stay away from conversations about rape. First because I don’t feel educated enough about it to contribute. I have never been raped nor has anyone I know ever been raped.”

    Truth trumps experience every time. The reason the world’s in such a mess is because this has been inverted.
    People are calling good evil and evil good. They use their experiences to ‘justify’ wickedness.

    You are in a good position to bring truth to women. One woman’s experience doesn’t create a rule. Research actual facts and figures about this topic and you can put a stop to women vilifying men. One conversation at a time!

    “Be strong and of good courage; do not be afraid, nor be dismayed, for the Lord your God is with you wherever you go.”
    Joshua 1

    BTW, you are a beautiful example of a Godly woman … be encouraged to not grow weary of doing good! Continue to devote every second of your entire life to your husband and son.
    May you go on to have many more children.
    A blessing on your home in the mighty name of Yeshua :) x Hannah

  85. FuzzieWuzzie

    About false rape accusatiosns, COTWA had a post on how to best protect yourself. Don’t dally with someone who might need to resort to lying to protect her reputation. That would be, primarily, a woman already in a relationship.
    This doesn’t work in all cases. Currently, on Dalrock, Tucker Carlson is featured as a tradcon apologist. He was falsely accused years ago by someone he never met. When the details came out, he was in another state at the time of the alleged incident.
    He sought no retribution and wrote her off as living in a fantasy world.

    There really ought to be some serious repercussions for false allegations. I’ve seen two studies that concluded that as many of half of these allegations are false. Which of the ten commandments covers this?

  86. sunshinemary Post author

    Hannah:

    This is particularly distasteful but reinforces a point:
    “go f-ck yourself with a rusty pipe”
    Well I’m sorry to hear you’re subjected to such base hatred.
    But according to the new-improved rape definition well it would appear you’ve got grounds for a court-case right there….!

    *gasp* Ohmigosh, Hannah, your right! Looking at the definition:

    In the age of bullying and the Internet, in the age of certain inappropriate speech and conduct, it just, it can be physical contact that connotes sexual assault, but it doesn’t necessarily have to be. It also can be verbal and/or psychological.

    Why, I’ve been raped, and I did not even KNOW it! And to have it done to me by a feminist of all people. Ugh, I feel so dirty.

    But I take it all back now, O Feminists! Someone has said a nasty sexual comment to me on the internet, nevermind that it was one of you guys. I know I can count on you for help in my hour of need! C’mon, where are my feminist supporters now? Mammon came from GOMI and RAPED ME!

    Somebody call Gloria Allred!

    I’m going to go dig Mammon’s deleted comment out of the trash folder and approve it. I’ll need it as evidence when I go on the Oprah show to discuss my heroic recovery from someone-made-a-nasty-online-comment-to-me rape and also my new book deal.

    Edit: OK, I’ve restored Mammon’s original comment assault.

  87. Looking Glass

    The trolls are actually somewhat fun. Though they’d be cuter if they weren’t so dangerous.

    As to the topic at hand, it goes to basic logic: if you’ve had a violent felony committed against you, it is rather rare that you would never report it to the police. That’s one of their historically useful functions. In our society, with no presumption of innocence for Men (publicly) and all of the support structures for a female victim (if you’re a male victim? Yeah, good luck getting the cops to even listen), if you can’t even bring a case to the police for investigation, then you are, Prima facie, admitting there is a lot more to the story than you will tell someone without consequences for lying.

    You are making a public statement against someone’s life, you better have some basic proof, as in at least a police report and witness statements. But, since we’re talking about Colleges, the obvious answer is always obvious: you were stupid, you were drinking or both. You personally create a situation where any logical proofing standard becomes supremely difficult. There. Are. Consequences. For. Being. Stupid.

    The orientation seminaries really should be titled “How not to be stupid while on Campus”. They would do a whole lot more to address the problems.

  88. Looking Glass

    @SSM:

    By those standards, then, Leftists are a bunch of horrible rapists. Raping people everywhere they go on comment threads!

    When will the Powers That Be speak out against their serial rapist followers!

    (There’s a reason why Systematic Logic is useful for legal systems. Apparently all Liberals are now rapist racists. Which I guess is good to know, but that’s going to be a shocking thing for my cousins to find out when I inform them of their raping racist-ness.)

  89. Novaseeker

    I want to state the obvious.

    I believe there is such a thing as real rape. Real rape is when someone overpowers another person and has sex with them against their will. It is a violent crime which should be reported to the police. If it is happening to you, you know that it is happening. Real rape is devastating for many reasons, some of which I intend to discuss in the future. People who are guilty of committing real rapes should face serious punishment.

    By and large, what is discussed in these campus “rape culture” hysteria articles bears no resemblance to real rape.

    Keep in mind that the underlying agenda is broader — it is to change the paradigm from “no means no” (which implies that if there was never a “no” it isn’t rape) to “yes means yes” — affirmative verbal consent solicited by the (male) party prior to engaging in every act of sexual escalation in the context of an encounter. The agenda is to change the sexual script. I think this agenda will fail, because most women find that kind of “every step of the way solicited and verbal consent” unsexy and unattractive, but their counter to that is that the only reason a woman would find that attractive is that she has been programmed to accept that script as normative. In other words, it’s similar to (although milder than) Brownmiller’s assertion that consent is a misnomer in the current culture precisely because women have been socially engineered to provide consent to this kind of script, which they would not do if they had a “neutral opportunity to affirmatively consent without pre-programmed assumptions”.

    So, in other words, if we really up the ante when it comes to alcohol-related sex acts, “unsure and uncomfortable when he escalated but I never said no or told him to stop” sex acts and so on, and many more young men and boys get expelled (not sent to jail, because the prosecutors generally hate these cases due to lack of evidence, which makes them hard to win), pressure can be exerted to change the standard from the current “no means no” consent standard (“which is unworkable … I mean look at all the cases where she was clearly assaulted or raped but never said no?!?”) to a “yes means yes” standard which would change, legally, what is a permissible sexual script between men and women. “After all, the current no means no script isn’t working!!!”.

    Always look further than the surface of these things. Often that’s where the real answer lies.

    [ssm: It’s just insane. How do feminists reconcile something like “affirmative consent for every sexual escalation” with 70 MILLION copies of Fifty Shades of Grey being sold? It’s not just that Yes means yes is unsexy and unattractive. It’s that it is totally revolting and attraction-killing.]

  90. Leap of a Beta

    I’ll do a post on it tomorrow, but I’ve repeatedly been accused of sexual harassment and sexual assault. I’ve detailed it before in previous posts, but I’ll expand upon one thing:

    A sexual assault or harassment accusation doesn’t need to be formal to damage a man’s life. All the trials I’ve dealt with in this realm have been informal, thank God, as I don’t have the money Dr Illusion has. I would have to borrow from family for the kind of money.

    Yet I’ve lost a great deal of money from such accusations. The informal accusations meant that I had to accept losses on projects as an independent contractor. I also had to take the work I did off of my resume and out of my portfolio, losing me future earnings as well when the company was a highly reputed and well known company I had hoped to spring board my career from.

    The current false rape culture has men bargaining in the shadow of the law. I doubt the effects of such on a societal level can be measured when you factor in areas of career, friendship, marriage, children of the falsely accused, etc.

    It’s evil. Pure evil wearing the mask of a savior of civilization.

  91. theshadowedknight

    On a more serious note related to GOMI, how in the world did a bunch of radical feminist psychopaths come to own the Internet? Your Internet..? Please, b*tches, explain to me how the Internet belongs to you. Did you build it? No. Did you invent it? No. Did you roll out the infrastructure? No. Men did all that. So it is more accurately, Our Internet. As in, exclusive possessive our. You can get lost. We will stay right here.

    The Shadowed Knight

  92. Frank

    They’re screaming about FBI stats clearly showing false rape cases are so negligible so as to be nonexistent.

    I took a closer look: 25% of rape allegations result in an arrest. So in 75% of reported rape cases, the evidence is insufficient for arrest and prosecution (presuming a competent investigation was done.) These can’t be proven to be either the result of false allegations or true allegations with insufficient evidence. For all we know half of them could be the result of malevolence on the “victim’s” part but there’s simply no way for the FBI to determine for sure, so there’s no way they could ever accurately declare what the actual percentage of false allegations is. Most of it lies in that gray area where you really don’t know who’s telling the truth. Of course feminists know: it’s the women who’s always telling the truth. (even now many women still believe the accused in the duke lacrosse case are guilty)

    Based on the low level of prosecution the presumption is made that the evil patriarchy actively discourages women to report rape because they’ll be vilified and the perpetrator will get away with it anyway.

    But not too long ago in NY a college student accused over 5 black men of rape. Their names were raked over the coals in sensational news fashion, until her story completely broke down and it was later proven that the allegations were false. She literally broke the law and got caught redhanded. Was she prosecuted? Of course not. If I remember right they declined prosecution because they didn’t want to discourage other women from reporting rape. It seems clear to me that the pattern we see leans towards extending women every possible legal courtesy while giving men the shaft. There’s very little consequence to falsely reporting rape. I’m sure there are exceptions, but overall, the justice system leans against men in favor of women.

    One thing I also noticed: In 47% of rape cases both parties had been drinking. 31% occurred in the perpetrators home. Most rapes are committed indoors, countering the argument that college campuses are perfect hunting grounds for non-matriculating offenders just prowling about, especially when in most rape cases the offender is known to the victim. Black women are more likely to be raped by an unknown assailant.

    Some of the dataset is pretty bad too and isn’t vetted very well (a lot of it relies on people’s words.) In addition, it doesn’t include important variables like region, poverty levels, etc. and appears to use averages rather than medians (based on a cursory look here.) Rape could be nonexistent on certain college campuses while being absurdly high elsewhere, with the net result being an average that doesn’t quite reflect reality.

    Finally, there are two humps feminists can’t seem to get over: 1) Sexual assault/rape has become so broad in meaning (to the extent that an unwanted kiss is considered sexual assault) that virtually anyone can claim to be sexually assaulted, and it would technically be true because the definition is nearly all encompassing. Change the meaning of a word and suddenly we have an epidemic. 2) Women lie, and women lie a LOT, so yes, there’s every reason to believe an uncomfortably high number of rape allegations are the result of malevolence on the plaintiff’s part, or that rapes are not reported to the police so as to avoid the possible legal ramifications of filing a false police report. They simply cannot conceive that women might have less than virtuous reasons for making rape claims that are not true, or if they do, they vehemently assert that such incidents are very, very rare.

    Feminists completely ignore these 2 points of course, and reframe the argument so as to suggest SSM excuses or even endorses actual rape. You can’t really argue with people who have no desire to debate the issue honestly and would rather hurl obscenities or throw up a lot of animated gifs like a bunch of childish third graders. All you can do is point out the other side of the story and hope the less insane amongst them will pay attention (and sometimes they do.)

  93. davidvs

    I am not going to comment on the campus and “rape culture” issue.

    But I do think we need a new label, perhaps Sexual Psychopaths.

    SSM, where is the link to your old blog’s post about becoming “paralyzed by pleasure”? Would you please share that? You and many other women therein described being with a man who was so attractive that when physical intimacy escalated you did not say no to his escalation. You did not want to say no despite some part of your brain realizing perhaps you should. You could not say no because you were so attracted and caught up in the heat of the moment.

    That is the dynamic that causes people to warn young women not to drink too much, and to go to parties in groups and not let young men isolate them. That is they dynamic that causes women to assure an attractive young man “I am really not this kind of girl” while removing her shirt. Yet most women are only half-aware of this dynamic, and do not know what their threshold of “dangerously attractive to me” is or how much it is lowered by alcohol.

    Men are learning to prey on that dynamic. Most of Pick-Up Artist Game is about learning adopt behaviors that make a man “dangerously attractive”, so that a woman can be isolated in a bar or party and then will willingly and without intimidation and without being impaired by alcohol or drugs agree to travel to a new venue and then to a home: she will genuinely and thoroughly enjoy the attention and flirting and sex even if it surprises her, and even if she later regrets that it happened.

    Clearly this is evil. As Christians we would not want our sons to learn this kind of seduction, or our daughters to succumb to it. We know why sex outside of marriage is harmful, and how it can interfere with spousal bonding, decrease marriage stability, handicap marital sex, and complicate parenting. The men who learn to take advantage of the “paralyzed by pleasure” dynamic are psychopathic in their thrill-seeking, selfishness, callousness, superficial charm, and remorselessness. They are con men who convince someone they want something, when the victim realizes later it was not a wise choice.

    Those men are evil and predators. But those men are not rapists, since there is no intimidation or threat or force or violence or drunken stupor or other lack of choice. They have learned to con women into sex, aided by the modern Hookup Culture. Calling it rape confuses the issue to everyone’s detriment: we cannot accurately describe the crime, or warn our children and teach them how to not be conned, or take appropriate steps to keep our locale safe.

    As one timely example, consider the recent Kickstarter uproar about a seduction manual (links: 1, 2, 3, 4). That books is not a “rape manual” as its opponents claim, and should not be called such by Kickstarter administrators. But it is evil. If Kickstarter would simply say “We refuse to support sexual psychopathy, and this is why seduction manuals are indeed psychopathic…” the discussion would be fruitful instead of clamorous.

  94. Paul

    SSM,

    I defended you over at GOMI. Just a small point I made in your defense. If you would rather I not do that in the future, I wont.

    [ssm: You’re very kind, but I fear you have cast your pearls before swi…er…feminists.]

  95. FuzzieWuzzie

    Ton,
    You’re going to get furious with me. Months ago, I was channel surfing and caught something on PBS done by Ken Burns. It was a two hour documentary about dealing with the dead of the War Between the States. Until that time, there was nothing in place to deal with this.
    At the end, a Yankee general gets the green light to bury all the Federals. It costs the government four and a half million.
    Since nothing was being done for the Confederates, Southern women started a grassroots charity to get their fathers, sons, brothers, and husbands buried.. It worked.
    Women do have moral agency.
    This may be the most damaging aspect of feminism. They found a way to relieve them of it.

  96. Paul

    Frank,

    The boyfriend has to show through a “preponderance of the evidence” that he is not guilty of the actions she claims. Is that possible to do in a he said-she said scenario?

    You are filing a “libel suit” against her if (and only if) she pressed rape charges against you, you go to trial, and you are found NOT guilty. NOW you have a “preponderance of the evidence” to go after her financially (it is not just he-said, she said, because she went to court and lost.) You’ll probably LOSE your civil case, but you have a case. Technically, you could go after her for much more than your legal expenses. Either way, it will cost her money to defend herself (money that she will NOT have to pay if it stays at the school and remains simply a school matter.)

  97. Novaseeker

    Feminists completely ignore these 2 points of course

    Well, not exactly. For point one (broadening the scope), that’s their specific doing, and it was/is intentional, so they are obviously not going to see it as a problem. For point two, the refrain for decades has been that “women don’t lie about rape”, which has recently been only very slightly modified to “women only very, very rarely lie about rape, and crafting the system around the possibility of a more widespread lying about rape impedes the prosecution of actual rape cases”.

    The beef for some time has been that the general criminal legal standards (proof beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury) “don’t fit rape” because there is often no real evidence other than he said/she said, which typically won’t meet a beyond a reasonable doubt standard. Therefore they are specifically seeking (have been for some time), a carve out for rape from aspects of this standard, because “rape is a unique crime requiring unique rules”. The campaign is proceeding quicker on college campuses because these are not subject to meaningful judicial review and constitutional protections via criminal procedure, because the colleges are not putting the guys in jail, but just expelling them (and blacklisting them from other colleges in the process). The point is that, over time, these will eventually become the accepted standards for these kinds of issues when it comes to sexual assault and rape, at least among the highly educated/cognoscenti/elite who attend these schools, and that therefore it will eventually be easier to change the actual criminal statutes in the area as a result. Remember — many take the long view. Always look to where this is heading.

  98. Frank

    Paul, here’s an actual real world example involving the founder of TechCrunch: http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/05/09/tech-investor-files-defamation-suit-against-rape-accuser/?_r=0

    That’s practically a casebook example of how much damage a women can cause just by claiming rape via social media/internet. I don’t think she ever legally filed charges either. Do some googling and you’ll uncover some of her FB and tweets, many of which were followed up by an outpouring of support by both men and women. *face palm*

    But according to feminists this never ever happens (or happens very very very very very very rarely) Nothing to see here, move along now…

  99. Frank

    Oh sweet Lord, I personally KNOW one of the women cheering up the accuser in the TechCrunch case on her FB wall. O_O *clicks furiously to Facebook to unfriend her*

  100. Novaseeker

    It’s just insane. How do feminists reconcile something like “affirmative consent for every sexual escalation” with 70 MILLION copies of Fifty Shades of Grey being sold? It’s not just that Yes means yes is unsexy and unattractive. It’s that it is totally revolting and attraction-killing.

    They were asked that, more or less, and they almost to the last said that (1) this is a sexual fantasy so that implies consent from the outset and (2) if a woman wants to *consensually* engage in “non-consensually seeming” sex acts that is not a problem, but simply an expression of her freedom. In other words … it all depends on her subjectivity. And that has been the issue from the outset as the legal culture has debated these issues over the past 50 years: the law generally applies an “objective” standard (i.e., “would a reasonable person have assumed consent in this situation”), whereas the counter is that every situation is subjective and the woman’s subjective attitude of consent, whether expressed or not, should be determinitive –> which leads to the affirmative consent approach, eventually, because the law always wants some evidence. It’s true that 50SoG doesn’t meet that standard, but if she signed his contract … yep.

  101. Novaseeker

    The other, non-legal, point on that issue is that, again, it will be argued (by the sex-negs like Brownmiller’s disciples, rather than the sex-pozzies, who will tend to argue like I described above) that women only like 50SoG because they have been socially conditioned to do so, and that this social conditioning is pathological because it sexualizes a submissive role for women in relationships with men. Remember, again, the trump card is always “that is not innate, it is learned, and therefore should be changed”.

    As a total worldview akin to a religion, it has an answer for everything. Many of the answers seem stupid to us, but they have some internal consistency and are convincing to the believers.

  102. Paul

    Frank,

    I’m not saying it doesn’t happen. But I am saying that men CAN and SHOULD file libel suits. I think this TechCrunch guy is going to win his case. Money.

  103. Retrenched

    Expanding on Novaseeker’s point…

    Years back the MGTOW Zed the Zenpriest posted an essay on the feminist campaign to expand the definition of rape. It’s a very good read. This part really stands out to me:

    Theres an old workplace poster that talks about a job that “anybody could have done, but it was really nobody’s job, so nobody did it, if somebody had done it, things would have been so much better”. Men have been very clearly socialized to understand that the shit work of sexual initiation is “their job.” However, when the situation is created where an act is both required AND prohibited, almost everyone will make the choice which carries the lesser sanction. In todays culture that means waiting for the woman to “intiate sex out of her own sincere affection and desire” as Robin Morgan demands to avoid a rape charge. No man goes to prison for the crime of waiting. Men and women alike are waiting for Godot, who never shows up.

    http://no-maam.blogspot.com/2005/01/eotm-rape.html

    We’re already seeing men avoid marriage due to the legal and financial risks involved. If these trends continue, could we one day see men avoid all relations with women as a means of avoiding false rape, assault and harassment charges, just as they avoid marriage today?

    Sure, that may sound crazy and unthinkable, and I’m not necessarily saying that it’s going to happen. But remember that a marriage strike would have been equally unthinkable about 50 years ago.

  104. Paul

    Frank,

    This libel suit is EXACTLY the reason why I said schools do not encourage these girls who were raped to press charges. If the girls lose, (which is going to happen if the rape is merely “regret sex”) then the guy has a libel case and he is probably going to win that.

  105. Dr. Illusion

    I got tired of being calm while making the feminists look dumb and hostile. Finally started nuking. They are not happy with me.

    [ssm: OK, I just read through your comments there. You, sir, are brilliant. Did you see them back-pedal when you kept asking them why they thought you were a woman? They assumed that because you mentioned a guy you had been dating that you were woman. I laughed out loud. Hilarious. Nothing is more galling to a progressive/leftist than for someone to think that they might not be entirely open-minded.]

  106. FuzzieWuzzie

    Dr. Illusion,
    Would you care to expand? Will they come over here? Frank has already got them riled up enough for one day.

  107. Paul

    They are basically saying how nice it is that Mary and I would be so calm and logical about the whole thing. I mean, SERIOUSLY?!?! You are raped you don’t go STRAIGHT to the POLICE?!?! Are you kidding me? There is actually a few posters over there who have said they were raped but never reported it. I can’t even make sense of that. You are VIOLATED and you DON’T report it?

    [ssm: I saw your comments. Well-done. Their response to your question about why they did not go directly to the police for help after being raped was essentially But you don’t know what it’s like to be me!]

  108. Paul

    They are STILL saying that Mary. I mean, COME ON! Of COURSE you go to the cops. One of them even had the nerve to tell me that the cops would turn her away! They must think I’m an idiot. :)

    I really feel sorry for them.

    [ssm: Paul, do you believe them? I just simply do not believe that any female would be told by campus administration to cover up a crime, especially one as serious as rape. I do not believe the woman who said the cops told her mother who was brutally raped not to do anything about it. I don’t believe them at all. My question is this: are they delusional or are they lying? I sound like I’m being snarky, but this is actually a genuine question.]

  109. Dr. Illusion

    SSM: I was having quite a but of fun for a while there, but when they devolved into calling me a creep and a rape apologist I just lost interest.

    I always find it amusing that no matter how calm and non confrontational I am with feminists and leftists, they always go straight to insults and vulgarity. Rational discussion is anathema to them. At least we can all get a kick out of my comments with them.

    That place is altogether childish and vulgar. I feel a little dirty.

    [ssm: I feel a little nauseous from all the GIFs.

    In terms of logic…you decimated them. There was nothing they could do but screech.]

  110. Leap of a Beta

    “I can’t even make sense of that. You are VIOLATED and you DON’T report it?”

    Rabbit people. I’ll admit there are likely some people that freeze up and don’t know what to do when they really are raped. I would also say that there are likely a few women that get drugged and don’t know what happened. Though I suspect many parts of the latter can be attributed to over drinking more than drugging.

    But both of these are in the minority.

    Also, to whoever mentioned getting accused of sexual assault/harassment over a kiss; I’ve been accused by someone when I hugged them. It really is all kinds of crazy.

  111. Dr. Illusion

    They even claimed I was lying about being innocent of rape. Considering I was acquitted in a court of law and had witnesses to prove the woman attempted to have sex with me and got turned down. I guess to them the accusation is automatic guilt.

    And am I the only person who caught a false charge for NOT sleeping with a chick?

  112. Paul

    I am absolutely AMAZED (shocked really) that so many women over at GOMI have been raped, but never reported it to the police. They reported it to the school but not he police. And they are trying to shame ME for my callous, clinical attitude about going to the cops if you are raped.

    I really feel sorry for these girls. I do. There is some serious damage over there and (well) their complete lack of any logical explination as to why they didn’t go to the cops leaves me without words. Any further attempts on my part to try and communicate with them would be an effort in futility.

  113. Paul

    Mary,

    [ssm: Paul, do you believe them? I just simply do not believe that any female would be told by campus administration to cover up a crime, especially one as serious as rape. I do not believe the woman who said the cops told her mother who was brutally raped not to do anything about it. I don’t believe them at all. My question is this: are they delusional or are they lying? I sound like I’m being snarky, but this is actually a genuine question.]

    I think they are lying. I have to think that because I refuse to believe that any women (in our country) are so delusional as to believe that a college campus crisis center would not send them immediately to the police. I am guessing that the college would volunteer to DRIVE THEM to the nearest precinct to get “evidence’ of the rape.

    I do believe that a college campus crisis center would not encourage the girls to go to the police if THEY didn’t believe a rape occured. That is the ONLY thing that makes any logical sense to me. And EVEN THEN, I am STILL guessing that they might tell them to go to the cops anyway.

  114. Dr. Illusion

    This is the first time I’ve ever been banned from anywhere. I feel so lost and forlorn. I may have to go home and cry into my whiskey.

    Or get a massage from Mistress and forget all about it. One of those two.

  115. FuzzieWuzzie

    Well, I went to the enemy’s camp and saw what was to be seen. I could only make it through a page and a half of comments.
    The impression that I came away with is that they are doing a better job of promoting MGTOW than all the MGTOW blogs.
    What scared me is the volume of comments. Then I remembered:

    When this battle did happen, the English were well outnumbered and suffering from the bloody flux. They ate shellfish out of season. Oops!

  116. FuzzieWuzzie

    TSK,
    There’s another thing that has been nagging me: girls getting blackout drunk and being taken advantage of. Normal people pass out before reaching the blackout level. Having blackouts is one of the warning signs of alcoholism. Normal people can’t ingest that much and still function.

    Rape culture is a myth and it seems to be a cover for bad behavior.

  117. Leap of a Beta

    Fuzzie, that’s something that varies from person to person. I’ll attest to nights where I can’t remember the last couple hours, but somehow made it home.

    However, doing that requires a desire for that to happen (for me at least). I pretty much have to drink a whole 750 ML of alcohol.

    Who knows? Maybe I have a rape claim just waiting for me to remember the woman who took advantage of me. hah!

  118. theshadowedknight

    Fuzzie, the entire movement is all about removing the consequences of any action taken by a woman. Drinking, fornicating, rebelling, lying, creating, and any other type of bad behavior would have had some sort of punishment; The Patriarchy. The Patriarchy is a catchall for the natural consequences of a negative behavioral pattern. That is why they hate it so much. It is a restriction on their actions that they find intolerable.

    I have a essay hiding in my head on the aspects of moral agency that have been raised in this and other post threads. I will write it out, and let you lot critique the thing.

    The Shadowed Knight

  119. an observer

    And am I the only person who caught a false charge for NOT sleeping with a chick?

    After a nice evening, a lawyer who’d been ioiing all night threatened to sue when i left a message on her voicemail, suggesting coffee.

    Bitches be crazy.

  120. Ton

    You should note Fuzzie, during the war of northern aggression, when women were a source of of Southern strength and pride, they were also legally property in many regards.

    Why does anyone think any institution on a college campus would react in a logical fashion?

  121. freebird

    “shall we make all people of either gender into ‘property’ then?”

    Yes,absolutely.
    The husband owns the wife and kids,the wife owns the husband and kids,and Christ owns them all,and God owns Christ.

    If you don’t own it,you don’t care for it,and the State owns it.

    What these wymyn fail to realize is that turning over God-given ownership of familial ties to fathers will someday result in the State taking children from mothers as well.

    It was Patsy Cline that started the adultery rebellion movement with the iconic “You don’t own me.”

    Liberating sluts everywhere to destroy the family unit and their own futures.

    Sluts be all drunk now,legs in the air,and regretting the next day.

    It is no surprise they lie,their father is of lies.

    What’s the penalty for false witness again?

    Hmm?

    Apparently nothing in this satanic age.

    There is no truth or morality,it is all relative squeal the death-cult pigs.

    queers and lesbians are incapable of reproducing naturally,so the tax hetero-normatives to fund their lab-spawn.

    It is a rotting cancer upon the Nation,and God will not be mocked.

    Not for long.

    Your time is short,devil worshipers.

    That is why they squeal so loudly,they know it is not sustainable,and they MUST control the Narrative,the Truth must not be allowed to be told.

    Keep your legs shut and your troubles will end,sluts.

    Take account of yourself for once.

  122. freebird

    BTW:
    It seems the comment at GOMI you linked to is gone.

    Wiped clean,no haters there.

    Filthy deceptors.
    Purveyors of untruth.
    Supporters of false witness.
    Harlots.
    Totalitarians.
    Soon the knock at the door will be for thee.

  123. freebird

    Reading through the comments there,the on gal claims a guy ‘grinded’ her in a nightclub dancing,and this was assault.

    Meanwhile the Good Men Project had a thread entitled “How do I grind a woman respectfully at a nightclub,” When I posted there was no way to do that,the feminists assaulted me.

    They want dirty sex in the foam pit AND to be free from unwanted touching from the betas.

    It is all about %110 control over men.

    Wanted attention=great,empowering.

    Same act,different unwanted male=raype.

    They had better to learn to approach and take the rejections because men are going to quit playing that losing game.

    Vipers.

    Get your filthy paws off my liberty,false witnesses.

  124. Ton

    Ps, as a divorced man, I can tell you, men are already property of the state. If you are a homeowner, you are property of the state and maybe your HOA. If you own a car, you are the property of the state, insurance company etc

    The illusion of freedom is one of the many illusions men should destroy with the red pill.

  125. Miserman

    I have to ask.

    What kind of legal punishment do these ladies and college administrators truly desire for the men who are accused of these crimes?

    From what I continue to read, the victims are permanently damaged by what happened and colleges are scrambling to advance the cause of sexual assault awareness, but no one really seems interested in any sort of punishment fitting the crime. I sometimes speculate, in a conspiratorial kind of way, that they want the crimes to go unpunished to provide that constant sense of victimhood that feminist empowerment thrives off of. Let’s face it, if the “rape culture” actually disappeared due to widespread legal prosecutions, college administrators, female magazines, and feminists in general would have damn near nothing of substance to write about.

  126. Cail Corishev

    Yes, rape can be difficult to prove at times, and going to the cops and doctors can be embarrassing and humiliating. Let’s just posit that as true.

    Doesn’t that make it all the more imperative not to put yourself into a position where you may be raped?

    I’m thinking of all those ads for traveler’s checks that tell you never to carry cash when you travel, because if it gets stolen, you have no recourse. So you carry traveler’s checks, even though they cost you something and are more trouble, because you want to protect yourself.

    But feminists seem opposed to protecting themselves from rape. They’re like a traveler walking around with cash hanging out of his pockets, saying he has a right not to be mugged. Yeah, he does, but what comfort will that be when he’s lying penniless and bleeding in an alley?

    That’s how you can tell they’re not nearly as worried about rape as they claim. If they were, they’d change girls’ behavior to try to prevent it, instead of continuing to encourage them to go to the parties and let their hair down and explore their sexuality and so on.

  127. ar10308

    With regards to that GOMI comment section, you’ll obviously notice a ton of .gifs and the reason for that is that they express emotion which makes total sense when it comes to discussing with women and manginas. They literally put up an image of an emotion and use that as their argument. A mob is immune to reason and can only be controlled by an image.

    What is interesting about this is that this is EXACTLY how a mob operates. A mob is fueled by an image and no reasoning or logic can disuade it. A perfect example is the French Revolution, a revolution fueled entirely by mob actions. Contrast the American Revolution, which was fueled by logic and reason. Ann Coulter does a brilliant job dissecting this in her book “Demonic” wherein she exposes the Liberal Mob, for exactly what it is, a exercise in mob hysteria and violence. She even believes that giving women the right to vote was a fatal erros in American history. If there is a Red Pill Conservative, she’s as close as you’ll come to one in the mainstream.

    Needless to say, the herd capabilities of Team Woman form quite an impenetrable mob.

  128. Tacomaster

    SSM, is there “rape by proxy”? I ask because I felt violated and dirty when you were threatened with the rusty pipe. Is there someone I can speak with? Maybe I’ll call my senator so I can get on disability.

    Remember the false Duke lacrosse rape scandal a few years ago? People wanted those guys to hang based on absolutely no facts.

    And if rape now means regretting past sex…well, I’ve had a few partners in my beta days I’m ashamed of lololzzzlol

  129. Miserman

    The feminists have dismantled the “Puritanical” code of sexual ethics that churches once preached (chastity and marriage) to now install their own “Femitanical” code of sexual ethics (feelings on a roulette wheel).

  130. Cautiously Pessimistic

    @Frank – “All you can do is point out the other side of the story and hope the less insane amongst them will pay attention (and sometimes they do.)

    I struggle with this. My attitude has a natural default setting of “Nuke ‘em all and let God sort it out,” or “Let them burn,” depending on the circumstances. What I don’t want is to waste my time flinging poo in the monkey cage. It’s never been fun or amusing to me.

    However, I appreciate the people that do, because while you’ll never get an honest admission of error from the zealots, you’re not really arguing to convince them. You’re arguing to persuade the onlookers.

    And while I’m personally convinced it’s a lost cause, I’m not going to mock those that continue to tilt at the windmills. It’s possible I’m wrong. I certainly would like to be.

  131. deti

    “If an assault took place and Ms. Allred has knowledge of said crime, is she not legally obligated to inform the police?”

    Yeah, Allred is a gadfly who shoulders her way into these controversies as a form of self-aggrandizement and self-enrichment. But no, she has no legal or ethical duty to inform police that someone might have raped (I mean REALLY raped) her client. Her sole duty is to serve the interests of her clients, whatever those interests might be. Usually, in Allred’s case, those duties mean preserving causes of action against possibly liable entities so as to get money damages for clients (and by extension, fees for herself).

    A lawyer exercising minimal ethical knowledge will conduct an interview of a client in which she tells the client to “tell me everything, and I mean EVERYTHING. I don’t care what you think about it; I don’t care how you think it makes you look; and I don’t care how you think I’ll see you. I need to know the absolute truth about everything. This is a privileged conversation so I won’t tell anyone else unless you specifically tell me I can do so. I can’t help you if you lie to me. This is a public matter now so if you lie and go public with it, people WILL find out. So the time to be honest is now, so I know what I have to work with.”

    As a lawyer, Allred is legally and ethically bound to keep that conversation confidential. No one can compel her to reveal the contents of that conversation. Elements of the client’s story will come out in sworn statements, statements under oath, affidavits or depositions, but these are always “spun” to put the best light on the client’s position.

    I think this is one reason a lot of these high profile cases don’t result in prosecutions: The evidence is very weak. IF she goes to the cops, they’ll prepare a lengthy report and start an investigation. If she’s lying and the cops are doing a halfway decent job; her story will start falling apart. Plus Allred is going to encourage her clients not to go to the cops where a criminal investigation will be conducted and the burdens of proof are much higher.

    No, she’ll encourage her clients to sue a college or a university or an employer or some other “deep pocket”. The burdens of proof are much lower and based on witness credibility and not physical evidence or written reports or prior inconsistent statements. Employers and higher education institutions hate the negative publicity. They have insurers that balk at the enormous defense costs and great risk of an adverse judgment, and so will push for a money damages settlement in which they pay a large monetary settlement in exchange for a full release.

    [ssm: Thank you for the explanation.]

  132. Alexa

    I found your post via GOMI and I actually completely agree with you. It irritates me that you’re not allowed to be anything but a vocal liberal pro-choice feminist on that site or everyone just chants “HOMOPHOBE! HOMOPHOBE!” Until you roll your eyes and change the subject or leave (See the “cunt” comments above. Very classy for a site that constantly claims “We just offer constructive criticism, guys!”). The majority of the people there are, I believe, on the liberal side of moderate and you’re already not allowed to hint at conservative Christianity (most of the Facebook thread is people complaining about the things their Christian family posts). But the few raging liberals (including the jackass moderator Partypants) really ruin it, and everyone feels obligated to laugh and agree with every ridiculous thing she says because she’s the popular girl at the table. Worst thing is they equate “shutting people up with obnoxious rants and using the F word over and over” with “winning arguments.” So when some of my friends and I have discussed “Did you see how so-and-so went crazy on that one girl who hinted that she thinks abortion is wrong?” nobody’s response is ever “Yeah. it really made me reconsider my position!” The response is always “Yeah, it sucks that there’s no point addressing it because some people are completely blinded by emotions to the point that they’re unable to hear another argument.” I JUST WANNA TALK ABOUT THE HORRIBLE CRAFTS BLOGGERS MAKE! I don’t think I can stomach going back after stuff like this.

    Sorry for the long rambling comment. I can’t post stuff like this on GOMI without being torn to shreds. It was a fun site, but it’s really a guilty pleasure that I just can’t try to justify anymore.

    [ssm: Welcome, Alexa, and thank you for your comment.]

  133. deti

    Agree with Nova. I think that the feminist agenda on this is to take complete control over sexual conduct; and to institute lower burdens of proof for sexual assault cases.

    First, notice that most of the false rape accusations fit the following:

    a. The accuser is reasonably attractive but the accused rapist is less attractive than she is; (The typical “date rape” or “I was roofied” claim); or

    b. The reverse: The accuser is a physically unattractive sex worker of some kind accusing high status men of rape (Duke LaCrosse team).

    Second, in sexual escalation, so much is unstated. “Yes means yes” requires affirmative verbal consent. This is really an attempt to wrest sexual power from men and put it completely in the hands of women. Does anyone think college women are going to make Alpha McGorgeous or F*ckbuddy Rockbanddrummer jump through these hoops? Of course not. These codes are an attempt to weed out, regulate, discourage and ultimately eliminate beta/delta/gamma/omega sexual conduct.

    Third, the attempt here is to demonstrate that relaxed burdens of proof are effective to reduce campus rape and thus would be effective to deter, reduce and punish sexual assault in the legal realm. In the campus/workplace situation, the penalties are administrative in nature, going from reprimands to expulsion from the university or dismissal from employment. For the vast majority of men, they being rule-followers who are just trying to get through school or make a buck, these kinds of draconian consequences are sufficient to deter men from doing or saying anything that could even be remotely construed as “kind of” sexual. Also, the due process standards are lesser because the possible punishments are lesser.

    (“Due process” is a legal concept which loosely translated means that before you can take away someone’s money or job or property or freedom, you have to follow some sort of predetermined process with preset rules and standards, so that we know we aren’t arbitrarily and capriciously screwing around with someone’s life. We can’t mess with anyone unless we have evidence and we think we can prove he did what we believe he did.)

  134. laurel

    The idiocy displayed in this post — and in so many of the comments — is truly disheartening. As a woman, you should be absolutely ashamed of yourself. I pray you never go through something as horrific and dehumanizing as sexual assault.

  135. donalgraeme

    @ DavidVS

    SSM, where is the link to your old blog’s post about becoming “paralyzed by pleasure”? Would you please share that? You and many other women therein described being with a man who was so attractive that when physical intimacy escalated you did not say no to his escalation. You did not want to say no despite some part of your brain realizing perhaps you should. You could not say no because you were so attracted and caught up in the heat of the moment.

    David, I believe you you are looking for this:

    http://leticiamary.wordpress.com/2013/02/25/on-slutty-behavior-and-moral-agency/

    It involves what I like to call “Donal Graeme’s Theory on Alpha Male IrresistibiliTY” (“AMITY”)

    [ssm: LOL, clever acronym.]

  136. donalgraeme

    [ssm: LOL, clever acronym.]

    Thanks, I was trying to think of something witty, and that was the best I could come up with on short notice. In the end, I thought it worked better than “Donal Graeme’s Theory on Female Resistance Under Masculine Pressure Syndrome” (“FRUMPS”).

    [ssm: Donal, for some reason, your comments keep going to moderation, but I don’t know why. I didn’t mod you.]

  137. ar10308

    Alexa demonstrates why we do this.
    The best possible result of Feminists and their shrills finding the Manosphere and shouting warnings about it from the rooftops will be influx of people sympathetic to it who didn’t know about its existance.

    Now, if only we can get Jezebel and the Atlantic to run a few Manosphere “takedown” posts, we’d have thousands of new readers and fresh Red Pill takers.

  138. donalgraeme

    [ssm: Donal, for some reason, your comments keep going to moderation, but I don’t know why. I didn’t mod you.]

    Weird. I’m not sure why that would be. Some vestige of my youth urges me to say that there is only so much awesome that this blog can handle, and that your filters are keeping me away lest I overwhelm WordPress.

  139. deti

    To all the naysayers here, accusing SSM and her commenters of insensitivity, inhumanity and hatred, and essentially saying “You don’t know what it’s like!”

    Let me just point out a few things.

    A woman who claims to be too drunk to consent to sex will be convicted of DUI if she gets behind the wheel of a car. She will be held responsible if, because of her impairment, she does not finish her poli sci paper on time. Being drunk is no excuse for failing to finish your work on time.

    So, really, your position is that a woman is never responsible for anything, ever. And, your position is that others owe her a duty of care while in her impaired position, right?

    Or, your position is that a woman IS responsible while impaired or intoxicated for ALL of her decisions and conduct EXCEPT sex. Right?

    So, you’re saying sex should be carved out as an exception because essentially you want complete control over it, so as to weed out and eliminate icky, unattractive men and discourage them from pursuing you. Except when attractive dickbags are around, in which case you have no wish to control the sexual dance, whether sober or impaired.

    Let me ask you – while all these awful terrible things are going on, where are your friends? If you’re this impaired, why aren’t your friends cockblocking to beat the band? If you’re this impaired, why are your friends not taking you home and getting you out of there? If they’re not, do you think you need some new friends? Or maybe you shouldn’t be drinking that much in the first place?

    Secondly, if you think you could get roofied, why aren’t you watching your drink? How can this happen if you’re watching your drink and you have it in your hand? Do you have ANY responsibility AT ALL for your own safety, even while intoxicated?

    If you think you got roofied and then sexually assaulted, then don’t you think gathering evidence about it would be a good idea? Don’t you think going to a hospital for a drug test to see if there is any rohypnol in your system would be a good idea? Don’t you think having a qualified nurse do a rape kit would be a good idea? How about pics of the bruises, bite marks and lacerations? How about saving the sheets/bed linens/clothes for DNA analysis? How about talking to your friends? Don’t you want to get at the truth?

    And if you choose to drink to such severe intoxication, do you bear ANY responsibility AT ALL for the decision to put yourself in harm’s way? No, you didn’t ask to get raped. No you’re not responsible for the irresponsible acts of others. But look at it from a man’s perspective. He has to gauge his conduct based on your responses and the way you come across. He’s probably not going to ask for consent every step of the way. But he is going to read your agreement to take him back to your dorm room, alone because your roomie is home for the weekend, as consent. He is going to read your kissing, your groping, your disrobing, as consent. He is going to read your heavy petting as consent. And he’s going to read all that as encouragement to escalate further and to keep going.

    You are responsible for placing yourself in a situation where conditions were conducive to getting out of hand.

    You are responsible for YOUR conduct. You ARE responsible for YOUR drunkenness.

    You ARE responsible for YOUR decision to go home with a man you don’t know very well when both of you are impaired.

    You ARE responsible for YOUR decisions to undress and hook up and make out and heavy pet, then try to put the brakes on when he very reasonably reads your conduct as full throated enthusiastic implied consent.

    You’re not responsible for his conduct but you ARE responsible for PUTTING YOURSELF IN THE SITUATION where you CAN’T put the brakes on, or when it’s too late to put the brakes on.

  140. Ton

    I sexually assaulted the girl on gate guard this morning. She seemed to like it, but it must be verbal rape since I did not get a confirmed yes in a written statement before I made her blush

  141. deti

    MIserman:

    “the victims are permanently damaged by what happened and colleges are scrambling to advance the cause of sexual assault awareness, but no one really seems interested in any sort of punishment fitting the crime. I sometimes speculate, in a conspiratorial kind of way, that they want the crimes to go unpunished to provide that constant sense of victimhood that feminist empowerment thrives off of.”

    Bingo. There are no “real” punishments, say the feminists. The police won’t investigate because they’re sexist pigs. The prosecutors won’t bring charges or seek indictments or prosecute the cases because the evidence is too weak and the burdens of proof too high. The universities and employers won’t do enough; and all we can do is kick these people out. It’s still really really bad, so therefore we have to keep trying to “do something more” to “fix the problem” because it’s “not getting better, so therefore we need to do more. We need more money. We need more employees. We need more laws and regulations.”

    That’s pretty much how that story goes.

  142. sunshinemary

    Deti at 12:56
    I 100% agree with that comment. However, the feminist reply to that is always just two words: victim blaming! It’s so frustrating. How can you argue against that? It’s not even an argument, but it sounds like such a terrible thing – what kind of monster blames the victim, they sob – that it brings out the protective instincts of men right away.

    It doesn’t bring out women’s protective instincts at all. However, the pressure to conform to the herd is why women go along with this. Secretly, we all know that a girl who doesn’t take reasonable precautions regarding her own safety is a fool.

    On the GOMI thread, one of the commenters wrote, “If men aren’t dangerous, then why does Sunshine Mary feel the need to concealed-carry?” Well, d’uh. I never said there were NO dangerous men on the planet; of course there are a few. Because I am a responsible human being, I take my own safety seriously and thus take precautions to protect myself in the (highly unlikely) event that I am assaulted.

  143. deti

    SSM:

    Let me tell you a few stories of responsible female conduct during intoxication, some of which I heard, some of which I eyewitnessed; some of which I participated in directly:

    1. I’m in the middle of my sophomore year. I take a girl I’ve known a while back to my place. We move rapidly to kissing, groping, etc. She stops me and says “I don’t want to have sex tonight.” I say “come on, we don’t have to deal with that.” More kissing, more groping, now disrobing. I fumble around for a condom and get one out. She can clearly see what I’m doing. “Deti, no. We’re not f**king.” “come on. It’ll be OK.” “You didn’t hear me. I said we’re not, and we’re not. Just relax.” “Sure we can.” “Put the rubber away. Not happening. End of discussion.”

    She then put her clothes on and said “I’m going home.” I walked her back to her dorm. And I got to see her again. It didn’t hurt our later relationship one bit.

    2. At my fraternity house, the party is in full swing. I make the moves on a girl I’d had my eye on for a while. I talked with her a while, I put the moves on her. She backs away and says “No, don’t do that”. I tried again a few seconds later, being quite a bit drunker than she was. She backs away and raises her voice “I said DON’T DO THAT.” We both just turned away and walked away from each other.

    That, ladies, is how you handle an unwanted advance.

    3. Again at my fraternity house, a different event. One of my frat brothers is making heavy moves on an obviously very, very drunk girl. My good brother, being the walking pharmacy he was that night, was drunk/high/stoned on who knows what. He’s grinding on the super drunk girl pretty hard in a corner. A couple of the frat members and I notice all this. One of my them knew the girls she came with. He pointed them out to me and said “deti, go get her friends and tell them to get over here now.” My brothers go to Walking Pharmacy and pull him off and away while her friends walk Unconscious Girl around. I said “you need to get her out of here now.” They did.

  144. vascularity777

    @Ton:

    I believe you are incorrect in your assertion that females are not capable of morality. Women, just like men, need Jesus’s blood to cover their sins to be deemed blameless in the eyes of our Creator. I furthermore believe that providing women the “out” that they are not capable of morality is a pathological enablement for them to use at their selfish discretions.

  145. sunshinemary

    You know, Deti, your stories and your comment about the importance of friends just made me remember an incident from my freshman year.

    I went to a house party with a two of my girlfriends early in the fall term, and one of my friends got extremely drunk. She also happened to be quite beautiful, and guys were all over her, one guy in particular. He tried to pull her into the bathroom with him, and I squished myself in with them and then started pushing him out. He was really, really drunk too, so I got him most of the way out the door and then pushed it shut as far as I could, and then sat on the floor with my back against it while he tried to push his way back in. He eventually gave up. Both the guy and my friend were really too drunk to realize what they were doing. I guess he was the pursuer, but then again, that’s how it is in consensual non-drunk situations, too, a lot of the time – men pursue, women are pursued. We are sort of wired that way. It’s no surprise that alcohol facilitates that dynamic while simultaneously removing all common sense from the situation. And because I was there and not drunk, my friend did not have a walk of shame the next morning. Later, she puked on the floor in my dorm room, though, and I had to clean it up. Ah, youth.

    Drunk, horny college students are going to have sex. That’s all there is to it. Alcohol kills judgment. In the morning, there may be a lot of regret. I don’t think all the rape centers in the world will change this dynamic.

    This is a major reason why I don’t want my daughters going off to college.

    None of this strikes me as being rape, however. It strikes me as extremely bad judgement under the influence of alcohol.

  146. sunshinemary

    Judgy Bitch is talking about rape today, too.

    http://judgybitch.com/2013/06/24/okay-were-talking-about-women-raping-men-and-thats-good-but-its-not-all-good-this-could-go-very-wrong-very-easily/

    I’m not sure how I feel about this article. I enjoy her posts more often than not. However, not being a secularist nor an MRA, there are sometimes areas where I don’t agree with Mrs. JB. There are things in that article that I have serious doubts about, but I don’t quite have the nerve to say so.

    I’m curious what you all think of some of her ideas:

    – forced penetration (i.e. a woman rapes a man by forcing him to penetrate her)
    – her recommendation about changing the definition of rape to make it less gendered
    – her explanation of why men don’t fight back against a woman who is trying to rape them

    One of her commenters, Heywood, left this rule, and I thought it was very well-said:

    If it’s impossible to resist, it’s impossible for you to consent, but if it’s possible to consent, you must resist.

  147. Cail Corishev

    Deti,

    Regarding your examples, I think a lot of what’s going on is that women don’t want to have to be the responsible ones. It doesn’t seem fair to them that you got to go for it and the girls in your stories had to be the spoilsports. So they want to change roles; they want to be Girls Gone Wild and leave it up to the boys to be responsible, or to pay for the consequences afterwards. They think they’re evening up the score.

    The problem with that is that changing the rules doesn’t change the fact that girls are girls and boys are boys. She’s still the one who might be pregnant. If both of them regret it, her emotional consequences are worse than his because she was penetrated and wakes up with part of him inside her, which is why she feels violated. All the you-go-grrl empowerment in the world can’t change that reality.

    Men can’t be given the consequences that face women after regret sex, so apparently they must be punished with jail time instead.

  148. Frank

    And while I’m personally convinced it’s a lost cause, I’m not going to mock those that continue to tilt at the windmills. It’s possible I’m wrong. I certainly would like to be.

    Alexa’s comment is a good reason for not staying silent. Sometimes people just need to know they’re not alone in their beliefs.

    BTW, given the high ratio of rape allegations that involve alcohol, it sure seems like the risks of getting raped would be reduced to nearly nil just by not drinking.

    Oh but that would mean being responsible and stuff, and women should have the right to dress like a slutwalker (and I use the term “dress” loosely), walk into a bar, and get loaded till they pass out on the floor without fear of being raped or sexually assaulted.

    While we’re at it I also feel I should have the right to wear a sign saying “White Power” and wave a wad of cash over my head while I walk downtown in Detroit somewhere without fear of getting curbstomped and mugged. We should start a Whitewalk movement!

    [ssm: Frank, that’s hysterical! LOL, what a great analogy.]

  149. walkercain

    Now, I do not believe I am in a position to comment on rape, or rape culture, because I think the subject is far too complex for most; I am simply not educated on the topic, and I don’t feel that commenting based on feelings or anecdotal evidence actually adds to the conversation, so I will leave that alone… but to Mary and all the other women in this thread who are critical of feminism, I’m wondering if it has occurred to you that had the feminist movement not occurred, not only would you not be welcome to voice your own opinions on this very blog, but you would not be able to vote, nor own your own assets or property?

    Most of you are using the word feminist in an extremely generalized manner, and it seems that you may want to take a moment to consider its etymology and meaning. The Oxford English dictionary tracks the usage of words through history and compiles definitions based thereon (apologies if you are already familiar with it). Therein, feminism is defined as,

    1.1 The qualities of females.

    1851 in Ogilvie.

    2.2 [After F. féminisme.] Advocacy of the rights of women (based on the theory of equality of the sexes). (Cf. womanism.)

    1895 Athenæum 27 Apr. 533/2 Her intellectual evolution and her coquettings with the doctrines of ‘feminism’ are traced with real humour. 1908 Daily Chron. 7 May 4/7 In Germany feminism is openly Socialistic. 1909 Ibid. 29 May 4/4 Suffragists, suffragettes, and all the other phases in the crescendo of feminism.

    So, that is what feminism means: “Advocacy of the rights of women (based on the theory of equality of the sexes.)”

    Thus, in saying you are anti-feminist, are you saying that you are against equality between men and women?

    If so, in proclaiming your anti-feminism, what you are literally saying is that you would you like to relinquish your right to vote; your right to own property; your right to control your own money; your right to intellectual discussion in a mixed female/male environment; your right to a post-secondary education; or to hold a job outside of the realm of home-maker – and that would include this blog, if any revenue is earned from it at all.

    Feminism means equal rights, and if you are not interested in them, by all means relinquish them – but relinquish them completely – or it would seem that the intelligent thing to do would be to find new language that supports your point of view, rather than contradicts with it.

    tl;dr: For woman to be posting a blog of her thoughts (particularly if it earns revenue), she is taking advantage of equal rights between men and women won by feminists, and is – by definition a feminist herself. And yet this blogger and some of her readers call themselves anti-feminists. How do you justify this dichotomy?

    (Note, I am a liberal, and a feminist (meaning I believe in equal rights between men and women), and an agnostic, and herein I have presented a “real” argument without resorting to any name-calling or slander, etc. I have read through this thread and seen a lot of generalizations, that “liberals can’t” or “liberal don’t” (fill in the insult here). I have also been really disappointed that people who espouse to hold similar views to mine simply resort to flinging insults and worse, instead of trying to engage in an actual discussion. I don’t think either makes for the kind of intelligent debate most of us are capable of. I know this blog is not nearly aimed at someone like me, but decided to comment here because I am truly interested in what people think of the dichotomy I mentioned above.)

  150. Miserman

    Drunk, horny college students are going to have sex. That’s all there is to it.

    While I’m not a prude on the consumption of alcohol, it is one of the prime tools used to obliteration inhibitions (what we might call common sense). It is insane to even attempt to discuss rape in such an ambiguous and deliberately consensual environment. After all, the reason people get a buzz is to drown out the part of their thinking that wants to denies consent.

    For the record, there are on many campuses small enclaves of young Christian couples who both avoid alcohol and abstain from casual sex. It is shame the enclaves are small and scattered.

  151. sunshinemary

    walkercain

    I am a liberal, and a feminist (meaning I believe in equal rights between men and women), and an agnostic, and herein I have presented a “real” argument without resorting to any name-calling or slander, etc. I have read through this thread and seen a lot of generalizations, that “liberals can’t” or “liberal don’t” (fill in the insult here). I have also been really disappointed that people who espouse to hold similar views to mine simply resort to flinging insults and worse, instead of trying to engage in an actual discussion. I don’t think either makes for the kind of intelligent debate most of us are capable of. I know this blog is not nearly aimed at someone like me, but decided to comment here because I am truly interested in what people think of the dichotomy I mentioned above.)

    Thank you for your rational response. You stand out among your feminist sisters. Therefore, I will respond to you.

    in saying you are anti-feminist, are you saying that you are against equality between men and women?

    Yes, in the sense of equality of outcome. Also in the sense of biological equality. Women are not physically equal to men. I am not opposed to equality of opportunities, provided there is no social engineering to “level the playing field” by discriminating against men.

    If so, in proclaiming your anti-feminism, what you are literally saying is that you would you like to relinquish your right to vote; your right to own property; your right to control your own money; your right to intellectual discussion in a mixed female/male environment; your right to a post-secondary education; or to hold a job outside of the realm of home-maker – and that would include this blog, if any revenue is earned from it at all.

    I earn no revenue from my blog and have no intention of doing so.

    I believe women should be the legal and physical property of their fathers if they are single and their husbands if they are married. If he chooses to let her pursue secondary education or a job or whatever, then so be it. That is a decision for him to make, and he should bear the responsibility for the outcome of his decision.

    My right to vote? My fondest hope for my country is that the nineteenth amendment will be repealed.

    For woman to be posting a blog of her thoughts (particularly if it earns revenue), she is taking advantage of equal rights between men and women won by feminists, and is – by definition a feminist herself. And yet this blogger and some of her readers call themselves anti-feminists. How do you justify this dichotomy.

    What you have presented is a false dichotomy. Women have been committing their thoughts to writing long before feminism existed. If I am my husband’s property, it is for him and no one else to decide how I am permitted to use my time. If he says I may write, I will do so. If he says I must have a job, I will have one. If he says I can’t have a new dishwasher, then I will not have one.

  152. deti

    :

    “ The problem with that is that changing the rules doesn’t change the fact that girls are girls and boys are boys. She’s still the one who might be pregnant. If both of them regret it, her emotional consequences are worse than his because she was penetrated and wakes up with part of him inside her, which is why she feels violated. All the you-go-grrl empowerment in the world can’t change that reality.
    “Men can’t be given the consequences that face women after regret sex, so apparently they must be punished with jail time instead.”

    Particularly in the college scene, much about sexual conduct is unstated. The participants are dancing. They advance and retreat, come together and pull away. He comes to her, she to him; but then he lets loose a little and she steps back. They are having to learn how to dance this dance, with different people sometimes, and many times without saying a word.

    He talks to a girl at a party. He already knows her a little because they have a class together. He can tell she likes him. She’s talking to him, flipping her hair, laughing. She hits him on the arm after he tells a stupid joke. He grasps her hand, kisses her, tells her he’ll walk her back to her dorm room. At this point he wants her badly and if he can have sex with her, he will. She likes him a lot and she might have sex with him. She wants to throw caution to the wind and have sex with him; but she needs to stay in control. But she doesn’t want to push him away too hard because she really likes him.

    For his part, he has to be very careful how he handles all this. He’s definitely interested (he’s a man in his late teens or early 20s and therefore by definition is interested). He wants sex. He has to apply gentle sexual pressure and push the envelope a little. If he pushes too hard, he’ll make her uncomfortable and she’ll shut down (at best) or claim sexual assault (at worst). If he doesn’t push hard enough, she will think he’s a pussyboy or not interested.

    Sometimes (most of the time) the dance doesn’t work out. Sometimes one of them doesn’t like dancing with the other; or doesn’t like his clothes/hair/movements. Sometimes he just doesn’t like her as a dance partner. Sometimes she’s not pretty enough or nice enough.

    When I was in school, all the girls feared two things: pregnancy, and AIDS. They keenly understood bad consequences. Despite the growing hostility toward men and overt “predatory” sexual conduct, most girls understood what a bad situation looked like. They had least some rudimentary skills at getting themselves out of those situations, or at least not getting themselves into a bad situation in the first place. I suspect they innately knew or had their parents reinforce that the more immediate risks (unplanned pregnancy, STDs) were more severe for women than for the men.
    CalilFor a man, the worst immediate risk was that he took home a girl he regretted having sex with immediately afterwards, for whatever reason (no chemistry, worse looking as he sobered up, etc.) Or, he got the girl pregnant, in which case he would have to “do the right thing” and marry her and take on responsibilities.

    Now, many women don’t want to dance this dance. Or, they’re willing to go to the dance, but will dance only with the best dancers and hottest partners. And worse, they want to tell all the other men not only that they aren’t invited to the dance; but that they can’t ever come to the dance. And for those men who come to the dance, the men are handed a lengthy set of written instructions that tells them exactly what they can do and can’t do during the dance.

  153. Question Everything

    I’m posting under a different name b/c of the sensitive info I’m sharing.

    I don’t know enough about false-rape accusation studies to weigh in, but I can understand why a woman might not report a sexual assault.

    When I was 16 I babysat for a nice couple with three kids. One night, the couple came home and the husband said he’d be driving me home. He smelled of alcohol which made me leery, but I was too shy to ask if his wife could drive me instead.

    Anyway, we’d driven a few blocks when he pulled over on a quiet stretch of road along a park. He started to tell me that I was a pretty girl and should watch out for boys that might not appreciate me. Then he leaned over and started to kiss me. I told him I really needed to get home and asked him to stop, but he didn’t. He started to touch my breasts through my clothes and he put his hand on my thigh and started to work his way under my skirt up to my underwear.

    I went completely numb. I didn’t try to jump out of the car and I didn’t try to scream. It was as if I had an out-of-body experience and was watching everything take place from a distance without feeling anything at all. Thankfully, he didn’t rape me and the fondling was over within 10 minutes.

    Afterward, he said he was sorry and that it was hard to overcome temptation when he was with such a pretty young girl. And, he said something like, “I promise this will never happen again. It can be our secret, OK?”

    I felt so dirty and ashamed I didn’t even think of telling my mom or reporting it to the police. Plus, I was confused. I hadn’t fought him off so was it a sexual assault or not? Also, was it my fault for somehow tempting him?

    So, I can understand why a woman might not go to the police right away. You have no way of knowing how you’ll react until you’re in that situation.

    Also, you’d be surprised at the way some colleges handle sexual assaults. My roommate was raped by two students when we were freshmen. We attended a large university with its own campus police department.

    After investigating, they referred the matter to a campus tribunal comprised of students and faculty who determined that while it appeared that an assault had taken place it would be hard to prove b/c she had taken a shower before going to the police. They made the students attend a sexual-assault prevention course and that was the end of it. The matter was never referred to criminal court as far as I know.

  154. Leap of a Beta

    @ SSM
    ” I enjoy her posts more often than not. However, not being a secularist nor an MRA, there are sometimes areas where I don’t agree with Mrs. JB. There are things in that article that I have serious doubts about, but I don’t quite have the nerve to say so.”

    I enjoy JB, and share many of her views on how the laws are misandrist. However, like most MRA’s she seems to be a liberal that simply holds traditional values in high regard while missing the soul of those values. By doing so, I don’t think that she has a real grasp on how to achieve what she desires, because she desires the traditional values without the culture or religion in which those values flourished because the culture and religion allowed them to. As with other MRA’s, I believe the short term goals will likely be reached as Feminism’s retardation of our current society becomes irrefutable, but the long term will result in the MRA’s being taken advantage of with a quick shift right simply to appease the rabbit men-folk of the MRA’s who want government to make their lives happy (rather than their own, personal masculine strength backed with a foundation of a strong, masculine religion/society), then a push further leftwards.

    The progressives in government really know how to work the general populace.

  155. deti

    Question:

    I’m not saying you’ve posted a false story. But events like the story you related are why I make sure I am never alone or isolated with any under-age-18 female to whom I’m not related.

  156. Kara

    SSM and Ton, are you truly saying you think that women should go back to being a man’s property? First time reading here, and can’t say that I can tell your seriousness on this. If you are really saying that….well then I find that pretty offensive. And I don’t think you can say that’s a crazy feminist feeling here against a statement such as that.

    I don’t think people are truly denying that false rape accusations occur, or that they shouldn’t be punished. However, I do think the way your post and comments are worded, seem to say that people who do report being assaulted while drunk or incapacitated in some way are falsely accusing someone. Clearly you disagree with how people are defining rape and sexual assault. I don’t understand how you couldn’t see how a virgin man could rape someone-obviously someone can be raped with an object or something that like (as that comment in poor taste suggested). I know you are feeling like the GOMI crew are the ones that are all emotional and going crazy here-but I would argue your anger against these so called feminists seems to be based on a skewed view of most feminists. I don’t think most people who identify as feminists at this point are “man-haters” or anything. I think they are for equality for women in all facets.

  157. sunshinemary

    @ Kara
    Let’s leave aside the question of whether I believe that women should be the legal and physical property of their husband or fathers (I do believe this, and I do believe that it benefits women) because it will cloud the other issue (rape and false accusations). A reasonable person could disagree with me on women being property and still agree with my points about rape.

    people who do report being assaulted while drunk or incapacitated in some way are falsely accusing someone.

    Not exactly. The most common situation is that both the man and the woman are drunk. Why, then, if sex occurs is it his fault? THIS is my point. Drunken men and women on college campuses tend to end up in bed together. When the girl wakes up the next morning, why does she have the right to claim that she didn’t consent if there was no physical struggle? He could turn right around and make the same claim against her, couldn’t he? Yet feminists always frame this as being the man’s responsibility.

    I don’t understand how you couldn’t see how a virgin man could rape someone-obviously someone can be raped with an object or something that like (as that comment in poor taste suggested)

    Where did I say that virgin men couldn’t rape someone? Did you even read this post or the comments after it? It’s beginning to seem like you didn’t, as I said the exact opposite. Here is the quote you apparently didn’t read:

    Retrenched wrote:

    If women are able to change their minds about an act of sex months or even years after the fact, and withdraw their consent retroactively, then literally every act of sex in the history of the human race has been rape, and all non-virgin men are uncharged, unconvicted rapists.

    And I replied:

    Here is one of the definitions of sexual assault: “Any type of sexual behavior or contact where consent is not freely given or obtained and is accomplished through force, intimidation, violence, coercion, manipulation, threat, deception, or abuse of authority…[a]nd it manifests itself in three ways: The ‘acts’ can be physical, verbal, or psychological. In the age of bullying and the Internet, in the age of certain inappropriate speech and conduct, it just, it can be physical contact that connotes sexual assault, but it doesn’t necessarily have to be. It also can be verbal and/or psychological.”

    Therefore, virgin men can also be guilty of sexual assault.

    And now I have a question from you. Read this quote from a woman who accused a college athlete of raping her (h/t JB):

    She said she invited Dixon to her apartment to get to know him better. She said he suggested they turn out the lights because his “eyes hurt” and that, after initially resisting, she agreed to turn off the lights and they went to her bed. She said that while she tried to talk to Dixon, he leaned in to kiss her and she kissed him back. She said Dixon got on top of her and “she told Dixon she did not want to do this but that she just wanted to kiss him.”

    According to the report, she said Dixon told her to “chill out” and began tugging at her pajama pants. She said she told Dixon multiple times to stop, to which he responded, “just chill out.” She said she tried unsuccessfully to push Dixon off of her but couldn’t. She said she told Dixon, “No you don’t even have protection, this is disgusting,” and that after saying that, Dixon removed a condom from his pocket and put it on.

    She said that soon afterward Dixon penetrated her and she was in pain and unable to move. She said Dixon asked her to turn around so he could penetrate her from behind, which she did. When asked by the investigating officer if she ever tried to stop Dixon, she said “she had just let it happen and she did not know why.” She said she was not afraid of being struck by Dixon.

    According to the report, the woman said Dixon stopped after about 20 minutes and she reached for her pajama pants. She said that when Dixon asked why she was trying to put on her pants, she replied, “because this was never supposed to happen in the first place.” She said she went to the bathroom, and when she returned Dixon asked her to perform oral sex on him. She said she told him no, and then Dixon asked her to masturbate him, which she did. She stated “she didn’t know why she did.”

    He didn’t physically overpower her. He didn’t threaten to harm her. He didn’t have a weapon. She doesn’t seem to have been drunk or drugged. She wasn’t even afraid that he would hurt her. Yet, the entire feminist establishment lined up to say that this was rape.

    Why?

  158. Deep Strength

    @ Kara, walkercain

    None of us here believe in “equality in all facets.” Thus, we reject feminism.

    This is primarily a Christian blog and we believe that God created everyone male and female to have the same worth. A potter who creates a pan, or jar, or other object knows its innate worth — pricelessness — because it is something He created. But He each created of us to have different roles, responsibilities, talents, and gifts just as a pan or jar or other object may have different uses.

    The “body of Christ” is not made up of all feet, all hands, or all eyes. Each of us have our different roles according to our talents. Some have been given more than others, but they are required to be responsible if they have been given more. This is evident in the differences both inter-sex such as physical (strength, muscle mass, height, etc) as well as thought processes (logical vs emotiona) and intra-sex as men and women have interests in different careers. Men are created by God to bear the brunt of the leadership in the family, and the women are to be a helpmeet to the man.

    This is why you cannot be Christian and a feminist. Equality is a false idol, covetous, and stealing. It is rebellion against God.

    Obviously, if you do not subscribe to the Christian worldview then you may not agree. That’s OK. I’m more concerned about the people who profess themselves to be Christian but have one foot in the world and support feminism. It’s hypocrisy.

  159. Leap of a Beta

    @ Kara
    You’re going to get a vast difference of opinion in this part of the internet depending on who you talk to, though Deti and SSM are fairly close in opinion on most things. And this site is…. more PC than some, and less radical.

    Yet, you can expect to hear commenters here discuss the merits of women in all kinds of contexts. There are many that believe women shouldn’t be given the vote. Most of these will also argue that only men that own property should be given a vote too. You’ll hear arguments against no-fault divorce, and hear us argue about marital rape.

    The thing is, we view these issues as connected.

    So when we make arguments about rape, what constitutes sexual assault, and false claims… We look at how those affect dating, courtship, marriage, children, etc. The arguments that are made at GOMI are narrow and shallow compared to the scope of what we look at on blogs in this part of the internet (not to mention full of disrespectful slander).

    We also use a lot of history for our arguments. We make claims that the past worked because of the proof that it got us to this point today, and that the changes made in the last 60 years drastically out pace any biological evolution nor have even allowed the faster evolution of society/culture to catch up. Western society is sociopathic because no one understands how the hell to function any more, so the average person simply does all they can just do take what they want, and generally lets the world burn once they get that.

    We’re looking at ways to move away from the selfish individualism of today and bring back the elements of community traditionalism that worked so efficiently at raising happy, well adjusted human beings of both sexes that were able to contribute to society.

  160. Kara

    SSM: No you are right, I did not read every single comment, and I apologize for missing that part about the virgin men. I may have mis-read an earlier comment.
    Regarding your link to the Dixon case, I agree it sounds like she went along with it at least in part. However, I don’t really think a woman should have to keep saying, “no, stop” again and again which sounds like she did initially before giving in. And again, I’m only reading the article you linked and I don’t know how biased it is, but Dixon doesn’t exactly sound like an upstanding character with a previous forcible rape accusation and threatening to kick that women in the stomach if she were in fact pregnant. Not that that is enough evidence to use in the second more recent case, but still. And I guess you could argue that he was well-known and these women are just falsely-accusing him. I don’t know.

    Anyway, I think I can safely say I disagree with you on these points, and @DeeperStrength, I do not generally subscribe to the Christian worldview as you put it, so I imagine that is why we are at odds here. However, I’m not sure that all Christians would agree with your statement, but I can’t really speak for them.

  161. sunshinemary

    On the topic of women belonging to their husbands and fathers, my opinions are sure to offend all the feminists and at least half the men here. However, the purpose of my site is not to needlessly upset feminists nor to curry favor with the manosphere. Therefore, men and women alike, prepare to (possibly) be offended.

    Consider renting a house versus owning a house. Which house are you likely to take good care of? Which one are you likely to use to meet your short-term needs?

    When women belong to men, it is the same dynamic. If you own a woman, you take care of her. If you are only f-cking her, you don’t. It’s that simple. I cannot grasp why feminists (and seemingly all modern women) are too stupid to suss this.

    When marriage was a requirement for sex, men agreed to marry because they wanted sex, not because they love being married. Once they’d bought the farm, they took care of it. Pride in ownership is a real thing.

    Which scenario is better for women? To belong to a man who takes care of you or to be your own landlady and rent yourself out to be used as a cum receptacle for the local Roosh-wannabe? Well, duh, that’s a no-brainer. I believe sexual assault probably has increased in frequency simply because almost all modern women are crappy rental units, to be used and trashed, so if some guy forces himself on a woman, he knows there is probably no man to whom he will have to answer.

    Now, which scenario is better for men? That depends. If you have no moral restrictions and are in that top 15-20% of men, renting is far better than owning because you don’t have to pay for the upkeep. You can just move when the old one starts to look a little rundown. Post-feminism is better than pre-feminism for these men, at least until our society crumbles to the point of everywhere starting to look like Detroit. Even Roosh Himself acknowledges this quite eloquently.

    For the other 80-85% of men, they are either stuck buying second-hand houses that used to be rental units, or they just go without and make due in their tents. Post-feminism is worse than pre-feminism for most of these men. For them, it was better to be able to buy a new house and own it for life, even if it was a rather modest little place, and take care of it. Society was definitely better off under that scenario because it gave these men a stake in maintaining civilization.

  162. OffTheCuff

    QE: You clearly said stop. While I’m no lawyer, it clearly is assault to me… and in all likelihood, it would have been even if you said “yes” due to your age.

  163. Cail Corishev

    Question Everything’s story, which seems plenty believable to me, just emphasizes how important it is to avoid such temptations, and what a worthless loincloth the whole “no means no” campaign is. Real rape is often hard to prove, and the woman has to go through a dehumanizing process to do it. Molestation like she describes is even harder to prove — basically you have to catch the guy in the act — and it’s often too ambiguous as to who encouraged whom to get a conviction (unless she’s clearly underage). On the other side, when a man has been accused, it’s very difficult to prove it didn’t happen, and just defending himself against the charge can ruin his life. So any accusation, real or false, is a bad situation for all the innocent parties involved.

    That’s why no grown man should ever be driving the babysitter home alone, especially if he’s had a drink or two. He shouldn’t suggest it, his wife shouldn’t stand for it, and the babysitter’s parents should have told her to call for a ride before allowing it. That’s the way it used to be, and it might be inconvenient at times, but it avoided a lot of problems. Pretending that nothing bad will ever happen if we just have the right rules in place is just stupid, and gets people hurt. There are bad people out there, and even more importantly, there are decent people who may succumb to temptation, and we all need boundaries to keep us out of situations where we start weighing the temptation against the risk of getting caught.

  164. Question Everything

    Question:
    I’m not saying you’ve posted a false story. But events like the story you related are why I make sure I am never alone or isolated with any under-age-18 female to whom I’m not related.

    This is a wise decision on your part. If his wife had driven me home that night, I would have been safe. (Not that I’m saying you would ever do to anyone what that man did to me). Now that I’m grown with my own children, I always drive the sitter home if she doesn’t have her own car.

    [ssm: You were too young to consent to him touching you at all. Therefore, it was sexual assault. It’s pretty clear cut, and I think that both feminists and traditionalists/anti-feminists alike, both now and in days gone by, could recognize that as sexual assault. It’s not really similar to the kinds of cases we’ve been discussing in this post.]

  165. Deep Strength

    @ Kara

    Anyway, I think I can safely say I disagree with you on these points, and @DeeperStrength, I do not generally subscribe to the Christian worldview as you put it, so I imagine that is why we are at odds here. However, I’m not sure that all Christians would agree with your statement, but I can’t really speak for them.

    Civil disagreement is cool.

    The fact that feminism and its associated social policies (women voting, marriage structural changes, more women in the workforce, denigration of women, you go girl attitudes, etc) got us into this hell that is modern Western civilization — women are less happy, more divorce, more entitlements and entitlement complexes, etc — I don’t understand how people still support it. This “progress” is crumbling Western civilization.

    If you know Christians that don’t agree (which is most Christians probably…) then they don’t really read their Bibles and don’t really subscribe to the Christian worldview. I would posit that they aren’t really Christians.

  166. sunshinemary

    Some free advice from Sunshine Mary. It’ll be worth every penny you paid for it.

    Dear Men,
    Here is how you can end most false rape accusations effective immediately.

    Refuse to have sex with a woman you are not married to. Don’t be alone with women you aren’t married to.

    If you want to have sex, get married (legal, covenant, or common-law, as you wish). If you have sex with a woman to whom you aren’t married, you are doing the same thing that a girl who drinks ten shots of tequila at a frat party while wearing Daisy Duke shorts with her thong clearly visible is doing. In short, you are being an idiot. You are engaging in risky behavior. If you choose to engage in risky behavior and you get screwed over, whose fault is that? How sorry should we feel for someone who purposefully engages in dangerous behavior and gets burned by said behavior? No one should be falsely accused of a crime, so if you are, I’ll play a violin for you, but it will be a rather small one.

    Dear Women,
    Here is how you can avoid the vast majority of sexual assaults.

    Don’t get drunk. Don’t dress like a whore. Don’t go to private locations with men. Don’t have sex with men you aren’t married to. Get married and stay that way. Belong to a man who actually gives a crap about what happens to you.

    You are not strong and independent if you scr-w around. You are an idiot. If you get drunk and go home with a man you met at a bar, you are almost certainly going to have sex. Why does this surprise you? Do you also make a habit of lying down on train tracks and then screaming at the train, “Don’t run me over!”? Will I feel sorry for you if you get run over? Sure I will. I’ll play that same small violin for you that I played for the men.

    People. Stop being idiots! God gave us biblical sexual morality to HELP US. He isn’t trying to bust up our party; He is trying to keep us safe while still allowing us to get our needs met.

    Don’t like my advice? Feel free to return it for a full refund of what you paid for it.

    You’re welcome.

  167. deti

    “Consider renting a house versus owning a house. Which house are you likely to take good care of? Which one are you likely to use to meet your short-term needs?”

    With regard to husbands “owning” wives and fathers “owning” daughters, there was a less … proprietary argument.

    Up to about the end of the Great Depression, around 1938, the world was an exceptionally dangerous place. There is always a rogue criminal element in every society. There are always all manner of hazards and mishaps to guard against: bad weather; wild animals, fires, floods, famine, vagabonds, criminals, civil unrest, riot, mob action, war, whatever.

    A husband is responsible for his wife’s (wives’?) safety, and for that of his daughters too. The women in the family were physically weaker. They couldn’t ward off threats easily. They couldn’t gather food or hunt and kill animals easily. Those tasks fell to the husbands and fathers; and to older sons as they became more physically able. Since he was responsible, he “owned” them, obligating them to do what the older men said so as to entitle themselves to his protection. And the husband was legally and morally obligated to protect them and provide for his wife (wives) and children.

  168. A Man

    “And how is it that women are not sued for slander when they create these tumblr sites accusing their boyfriends, with whom they were having consensual sex, of raping them?”

    Erm, did you even read that tumblr? It’s not slander if it’s true, FYI. Maybe the boyfriend is well aware he raped her, and doesn’t want to risk it? The woman had been about to do ORAL with the boyfriend, but had clearly said “no” when he wanted to take it a step further. SHE SAID NO.

    Anyway, in regards to some of your further comments about the ownership of women, erm… Let’s talk about slavery. When you own a slave, you take care of it right? SO MUCH BETTER than hiring some employee. I mean, who cares if your employee gets injured, right? Just hire a new one.

    If that is lost on you, I must say that you come off as quite the misandrist–far more than most feminists I know do. Did you ever think that perhaps men are able to, gasp, fall in love with a woman? There are men who truly want to be in a partnership with someone they consider their best friend, for their entire lives. And, believe it or not, there are men who would never want to have sex with a woman unless she wanted to, and was enjoying it. Not all men are psychopaths…

  169. A Man

    “If you want to have sex, get married (legal, covenant, or common-law, as you wish).”

    Erm, it’s possible to be raped by your spouse.

    Your advice is a load of misandrist bunk. Luckily, women, being persons, are able to divorce men who rape them, and treat them like shit.

  170. Cail Corishev

    “A Man,” I’m sure all the girls appreciate your white knighting. You might want to look up the word misandrist; you seem to have it confused with its opposite. Or perhaps you’re just confused in general.

    Do you also believe that it’s possible to steal your own TV?

  171. sunshinemary

    Deti:

    A husband is responsible for his wife’s (wives’?) safety,

    A quick note: for those men who just cannot live without a harem, well, have a harem then. Just make sure you can support and protect them and it’s all good.

    But women, unless you’re going to be part of a harem whose owner actually cares about your well being, why would you be so blindingly stupid as to sign up for that deal?

    An excellent post from Grerp at The Lost Art of Self Preservation:

    Piece of Advice #90: Don’t sign up to be part of his harem

  172. A Man

    No, I am certainly not confused about the word’s meaning. I’m saying that Sunshine Mary hates men. That she thinks men are stupid enough to need some kind of economic/social incentive to care about women.

    I disagree with the idea that women are property, so of course, your argument about the TV is invalid from my perspective.

    [ssm: Wrong. I love men. I want men AND women to be well. I care about people’s well-being because of Imago Dei. If I hated men, I wouldn’t have this blog. And just as I won’t kowtow to feminists, I also won’t kowtow to MRAs, either. If I think they’re wrong, I’m going to say so, not because I hate men but because I care about men. This is why I keep saying that I am NOT part of any particular segment of the blogosphere; I’m not a manospherian, nor a traditionalist, nor a reactionary. I am a Christian first, last, and only.]

  173. A Man

    I’m White Knighting myself, here! LOL @ Cail. Try reading my comments again–supposing this get through moderation…

    [ssm: Nota bene – Anyone who is new here is automatically placed into moderation for a few days until I can see for sure who I’m dealing with. You’re not special.]

  174. Anonymoose

    Sunshine said: “However, the feminist reply to that is always just two words: victim blaming! It’s so frustrating. How can you argue against that?”

    And then Cail gave part of the answer in his comment to Deti: “Regarding your examples, I think a lot of what’s going on is that women don’t want to have to be the responsible ones. It doesn’t seem fair to them that you got to go for it and the girls in your stories had to be the spoilsports. So they want to change roles; they want to be Girls Gone Wild and leave it up to the boys to be responsible, or to pay for the consequences afterwards. They think they’re evening up the score.”

    Depending on the specifics, the answer to “victim blaming” can be that a woman who created the situation by being untruthful cannot be the victim, because “victim” is defined only within the context of honest/dishonest and just/unjust.

    Traditional role: The boys pursue, and the girls say “yes” or “no”, with consistent words and actions. Girls can be required to be responsible, because they alone know the whole story, what the boys want and what they themselves want.

    Changed role: The girls shout “I want you to fuck me”, through their actions, in the language of sexuality that has remained unchanged since it was created by God, or evolution, or whatever. Boys are required to be “responsible”, by saying “yes” or “no”, depending on whether the girl is telling the truth.

    Alcohol, like ordinary hypnosis, cannot make you do anything that you don’t want to do. As Miserman said, “after all, the reason people get a buzz is to drown out the part of their thinking that wants to deny consent”.

    And if alcohol removes capacity and thus responsibility, then it does so for both men and women, equally. Unless, of course, women are as Ton described, in which case he has graciously provided an alternative solution.

  175. deti

    A Man:

    A few thoughts for you.

    1. That a woman says her BF raped her, or believes he raped her, doesn’t make it so. If she comes across as giving consent, without stating withdrawal of consent AND actively resisting, it’s going to be very, very difficult to make a case for sexual assault.

    2. A woman deciding unilaterally after the fact that she didn’t want to have sex was not raped.

    3. A woman consenting to sex when she didn’t really want to have sex was not raped. (This kind of thing happens all the time – consider the wife having sex with her husband because she loves him, but isn’t really revved up for sex.)

    4. Maybe she should make her intentions clear on what she will and won’t do BEFORE she agrees to leave the club with Alpha McGorgeous. Maybe she should tell him “I will NOT have sex with you.” And when she gets back to his place, and the alcohol flows, his boner grows and the clothes fly, she should remind him again “I will NOT have sex with you.” And then she should follow through on it. Draw the line in the sand, and tell the man “this far and NO FARTHER”. And mean it.

    5. It will be simply impossible even for husbands to have sex with wives if a woman can unilaterally after the fact conclude she was raped. Every husband will live in constant fear that his wife can turn on him and destroy him with one police report; one phone call to the police. A bevy of armed men will soon arrive to pummel him into submission and end his life as he knew it.

    Think about it, A Man: Is this the kind of adversarial stance we want to introduce into marriages? Husbands must make sure they have clear, unambiguous consent before they can get their rocks off with their own wives? Really? What does he need to do? Have her sign a consent form every time he wants sex? Put a videocamera in the bedroom to film the act, akin to portable dashboard video cameras in highway patrol cars and squad cars? This is patently absurd. If that’s what sex in marriage has come down to, no man is going to marry. Married men might as well file for divorce and quitclaim the house to their soon to be ex wives. If that’s what sex in marriage is; it’s over.

    And do you really believe a typical husband is going to knowingly and intentionally rape his wife? Really? Are you so misandrist that you believe a man will rape his wife? (I disagree that it’s possible for a man to rape his wife, because she gives standing consent to sex with a husband. If she really doesn’t want to have sex with her husband, she should file for divorce and be done with it.)

  176. Kitty

    Yeah, sorry but “innocent until proven guilty” doesn’t translate to “don’t prosecute”. Basically you’re the one reversing that and assuming that all the ones reporting sexual assault are guilty of lying!

    PS: I’d rather live in the feminist totalitarian “dystopia” you picture, than in one where RAPISTS are allowed to roam free and rape more victims!

  177. A Man

    “(I disagree that it’s possible for a man to rape his wife, because she gives standing consent to sex with a husband. If she really doesn’t want to have sex with her husband, she should file for divorce and be done with it.)”

    I rest my case.

    [ssm: You made a case?]

  178. sunshinemary

    Can you rape your wife/husband? No.

    Consider:

    “In the name of God, I, [speaker’s name], take you, [partner’s name], to be my wedded [wife/husband], to have and to hold, from this day forward, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, until parted by death. That is my solemn vow.”

    Consent is given in the vows.

    Do men want to have sex with an unwilling wife? No, they do not, by and large. Virtually all men will not take their wives if she says, “Don’t.” Morally they are permitted to do so, but they don’t do this because they love their wives and don’t want to hurt them.

    Edit: Newcomers from the feminist realm: remember that this is a Christian blog and the majority of the participants are Christian. We don’t agree on every aspect of doctrine because we are a mix of Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant believers, but we almost all accept the Bible as the inerrant word of God. So, regarding sexual consent within marriage, we believe according 1 Corinthians 7:3-5:

    3 The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 5 Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

  179. Cail Corishev

    I’m saying that Sunshine Mary hates men.

    It must be nice to be able to jump into the middle of a conversation, hear a couple of exchanges, and instantly judge where someone is coming from — even when people who have been involved in the conversation about a thousand times longer than you have say it’s otherwise. That has to be a handy skill.

  180. deti

    If I, as a man married 17 years, will have to secure clear, unambiguous consent every time I want sex from my wife, then I will no longer allow her unfettered access to the money I earn for the purpose of supporting her and our children.

    The need to secure consent for sex implies a separation, a wedge between husband and wife. It implies lack of trust. It implies division.

    So be it. Two can play that game.

    If this is the case, then husbands must insist on completely separate finances. My money is my money; and her money is her money. I will support myself and the kids. She will have to support herself on whatever she can earn, eke out, beg or borrow. If she wants money from me, she will have to ask for it and then account to me for every penny spent. It will have to be spent on supporting the household or the children; any extras or niceties will have to come from money she earns herself, or from gifts from others.

    Do we really want to go down this road, A Man?

  181. Kitty

    Except that marriage is not a religious contract! And who would honestly wish to hurt their spouse by having sex while they do not want to? They are a terrible person, and still a rapist, because it is still a crime of rape. Whether your religion condones it or not, you live within the laws of the land.

  182. Leap of a Beta

    @ Deti

    Curious, by that line of thinking, I want to ask you something. I think we’ll agree.

    So, must a woman be clear when revoking sexual access in a sexual relationship (FWB, dating, boyfriend, whatever you want to call it, but where they’ve already had sex) for you to consider it sex? Where does such clarity lie? Is it a night by night thing, or must she decide to remove herself from any personal relationship in which the two of them would be alone together and tempted by sex?

  183. Cail Corishev

    I disagree with the idea that women are property, so of course, your argument about the TV is invalid from my perspective.

    It’s valid or invalid in itself; your perspective is irrelevant.

    In a Christian marriage, the spouses’ bodies belong to each other, so they have no right to withhold sex from each other. They turn over ownership of that part of themselves when they say their vows. Both of them do; this isn’t about women being property. When you say the vows, you’re making a gift of sex-on-demand-until-death-do-you-part to your spouse. You can’t take it back later.

    Now, if you’re not a Christian, maybe that’s not part of your vows. That’s fine, but Christianity is the context of the discussion here.

  184. A Man

    Sunshine Mary — Okay, so you love men, despite your horrible perception of us. Gotcha.

    “This is why I keep saying that I am NOT part of any particular segment of the blogosphere; I’m not a manospherian, nor a traditionalist, nor a reactionary. I am a Christian first, last, and only.”

    Erm, so you’re a Fundamentalist Christian, in agreement with the tennets of Biblical Patriarchy (or some version of them at least). OWN YOUR PARTICULAR SEGMENT, WOMAN! I haven’t perused your blog to know whether or not you’ve studied theology, but you do fall into a pretty specific category, if you care to look into that side of things. (All Christians are not created equal. I’m guessing you agree.)

    [ssm: I believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God. I do not believe anything that is contrary to the Bible.

    I do not have a horrible perception of men in the least. Feminists like you have made masculinity out to be some sort of toxic quality; personally, I celebrate it.]

  185. Kitty

    You cannot call yourself a true Christian if you do not respect women. Jesus showed respect to all women that he encountered, and deeply honoured Mary Magdalene, who was an early proponent of women’s participation in Christianity. (And not a prostitute, there is no textual evidence to support that).

    Jesus would never condone rape, so why are you?

    [ssm: I have never condoned rape. I condemn rape. I do not, however, accept the Feminist party line on what constitutes rape.]

  186. Looking Glass

    No, Cail, you’ve got to take it up even further:

    Kitty, when are you going to stop murdering your own children?

    (And stop murdering the English language, at that)

  187. deti

    @ SSM:

    “Curious, by that line of thinking, I want to ask you something. I think we’ll agree.

    “So, must a woman be clear when revoking sexual access in a sexual relationship (FWB, dating, boyfriend, whatever you want to call it, but where they’ve already had sex) for you to consider it sex? Where does such clarity lie? Is it a night by night thing, or must she decide to remove herself from any personal relationship in which the two of them would be alone together and tempted by sex?”

    I don’t understand what you’re asking but I’m going to try to answer. Let me know if it’s not what you’re looking for.

    Talking just about unmarried women: A woman not married to a man she’s having sex with can revoke that consent at any time for any reason. If she’s FWB, dating, or his GF, in a sexual relationship with him, she can decide she doesn’t want to do that anymore. That, of course, will change the parameters of the relationship, and she needs to be prepared for that. There’s a general maxim of the way men approach relationships which essentially says that sexually, we’re not going to regress or move backwards. Once we’ve had sex, the woman cannot then say “I don’t want to have sex anymore” without causing a fundamental change in the relationship.

    That same unmarried woman must also give consent, express or implied, for each sex act. She’s well within her rights to say “Nope. Not tonight. Not tomorrow night, and not the night after that either.”

    That same unmarried woman can also draw the line sexually anywhere she wants. She can draw that line, move it, remove it, change it or abolish it anytime she wants, for any reason. She can say kissing only, french kissing with tongue only; copping feels only, digital stimulation only, oral sex only; in whatever combinations and permutations she wants. She can go forward, or backwards, anytime she wants, in whatever way she wants. She can say “I used to give BJs to you, boyfriend, but I’ve decided I just don’t want to do that anymore.” And boyfriend has to live with that.

    That same unmarried woman can tell her BF I am not going to have any kind of sex with you at all, anytime, anywhere. But once she becomes his wife, she’s morally and biblically obligated to have sex with her husband. Is she morally obligated to do anything he wants? No, but she really should find some kind of compromise. If he is really into BJs, it behooves the new wife to give him that. Is the husband going to get laid six times a day? Probably not. Again, compromise for the woman he loves. Is he going to force himself on her when she stayed up all night breastfeeding the baby and she’s dog tired? Nah. Because he loves her. He’ll wait till tomorrow night. Is he going to force himself on her when she’s got a 103 degree fever and spent the night puking into the toilet? Of course not.

    Is this what you had in mind?

    [ssm: Deti, it was Leap of a Beta, not I, who asked you the original question to which you are replying.]

    [ssm: I want to point out, just for the sake of clarity for new readers, that having sex with someone you aren’t married to is called fornication and is a sin. The girl in the above examples shouldn’t be having sex with her boyfriend at all.]

  188. A Man

    From the law’s perspective, and my own, you, by your denial of it’s existence, are in support of marital rape. That was my case. That is what you appear to be saying.

    Now I have one question for you, and then I’m out.

    A woman is exhausted from a long day of physical labour. She’s tired, she’s sore, she just wants to sleep. Her husband says he wants to have sex. She explains the situation, and says she’d much rather do it some other time. He pushes her onto the bed, and forcibly has sex with her. She screams, hits him, trying to get him to stop.

    In your opinion, is the women in the scenario above, being raped?

    [ssm: I would strongly advise my male readers not to answer this question. I don’t trust A Man.

    I, however, will answer it. I do not believe he is raping her in that scenario because I do not believe it is possible to rape your spouse. The current law in the United States would probably call that rape, which is something that husbands have to bear in mind. However, virtually no husband would do what you have described, so it’s really almost pointless to consider it.]

  189. A Man

    “Do men want to have sex with an unwilling wife? No, they do not, by and large. Virtually all men will not take their wives if she says, “Don’t.” Morally they are permitted to do so, but they don’t do this because they love their wives and don’t want to hurt them.”

    This answers my question. I’m not really sure how having sex with an unwilling person could ever be considered moral, but all righty.

    Farewell, fundamentalists! Your lack of theological knowledge, and distortion of the Biblical text, never ceases to amaze me. The way you read the Bible says more about you (whoever you are, and however you read it), than it does about God (wherever He is).

    [ssm: Farewell. Since you were basically respectful and rational, you are welcome to come back in the future if you wish to discuss anything else.]

  190. Frank

    Don’t get drunk. Don’t dress like a whore.

    YOU CAN’T TELL ME WHAT TO DO!!! *strips off clothes, drinks moonshine*

    [ssm: LOL, yes, exactly.]

  191. deti

    A woman is exhausted from a long day of physical labour. She’s tired, she’s sore, she just wants to sleep. Her husband says he wants to have sex. She explains the situation, and says she’d much rather do it some other time. He pushes her onto the bed, and forcibly has sex with her. She screams, hits him, trying to get him to stop.
    In your opinion, is the women in the scenario above, being raped?

    Legally, under the law as currently constituted, yes.

    But you’ve asked the question in bad faith. You’ve also identified the participants by their conduct as non-Christian. The husband and wife do not have any kind of Christian one-flesh marriage.

    Such a situation would never happen in a Christian marriage. Either she would give him what he wants; or more often, he would say “OK, some other time. Footrub?”

  192. Looking Glass

    @SSM:

    Reminder: the term “rape” is a common definition, not a legal one. For that, it’s varying levels of “sexual assault”. So, when people want to argue legalities, “rape” doesn’t exactly exist.

    To complete red herring of a question that A Man is trying to trap people with, the proper response is something like this: “A Woman meets A Man at a bar. They go back to her place and she rides him hard enough the neighbors can hear she’s having a damn good time. A month later she goes to the police claiming she was raped, because he wouldn’t return her texts. Was a crime committed?”

    [ssm: LOL, I’ll remember that question. Thanks for the legal explanation re: rape and sexual assault.]

  193. deti

    LG: Yes, I do so love the “Have you stopped beating your wife yet” questions that A Man seems so fond of.

  194. an observer

    The idiocy displayed by the shrill emoting of feminists against this post — and in so many of the comments — is truly disheartening. As a woman, I am completely ashamed of my genders behaviour, using blackmail, witchcraft manipulation and ing in rebellion against the natural order. I pray you never go through something as horrific and dehumanizing as no fault divorce, losing your children, assets and the next fufifteen years income in an unprovoked epl moment.

    FIFY.

  195. sunshinemary

    Deti:

    Such a situation would never happen in a Christian marriage. Either she would give him what he wants; or more often, he would say “OK, some other time. Footrub?”

    Exactly. And haven’t we all had that scenario where one person (usually, but not always, the husband) wants to make love and the other person (usually, but not always, the wife) is too tired? How often has that ended in a rape-like scenario for you, readers? In my marriage, that has happened exactly zero times.

    What usually happens, on those rare occasions when I’m not interested, is that HHG will just try to change my mind by persuasion, usually of the kino kind. And sometimes it works. Sometimes you think you’re too tired, and then your husband starts kissing you and touching you and whispering, “Are you sure? Totally sure? Even if I do this?” And suddenly you’re not so tired anymore, amirite ladies?

  196. Looking Glass

    @Deti:

    I was thinking about this after a sermon from Luke yesterday, but were did we get the idea that any question is “honest”? Jesus was rarely asked an “honest” question, and even most that come to mind had the interests of the person asking it at the very forefront. Even the Apostles were almost always guilty of this.

    I think the way to go is that “a person” can be honest, but there is no “honest” questions, except from people you know you can trust. But, even then, you have to be mindful.

    [ssm: Excellent point.]

  197. Deep Strength

    Farewell, fundamentalists! Your lack of theological knowledge, and distortion of the Biblical text, never ceases to amaze me. The way you read the Bible says more about you (whoever you are, and however you read it), than it does about God (wherever He is).

    Says the person who didn’t even reference the Bible in any argument.

    LOL

  198. Leap of a Beta

    Deti,
    Just looking for some clarity in what you think social expectations should be, even for the non-religious. If a couple is dating and having sex outside of marriage, is it reasonable to expect that sex has been consented to already, and that with a revocation of sexual access should come a distancing of the relationship?

    Simply put, I am wary of believing anyone that says that they were raped by a boyfriend whom continues along in a relationship as if nothing happens. I simply don’t trust her word because her actions didn’t change. I would say that those cases are usually just regret or reluctant sex, acceptance of it as such, and continued dating because she continues to enjoy/benefit from the relationship.

    If he DID rape her, how would you prove it in such a situation or would you write it off completely?

    On the other hand, if someone was in a relationship, denied sexual access, claims rape, and then completely distances herself from the other person afterwards, I would be much more apt to believe them. I’d still look into whether they’re crying rape because of a bad break up, but that’s called proving beyond a doubt.

    Dunno. Just haven’t thought about relationship rape, where I know my beliefs on marital rape already. The area is much grayer than the already murky marital situation.

  199. Kitty

    I don’t have any children, so I don’t get the joke. And nice little dig at my supposed lack of english skills. It seems like you’re very interested in elevating the discourse and not simply bullying opposing viewpoints off of the page.

  200. Farm Boy

    In your opinion, is the women in the scenario above, being raped?

    WWWGS?
    What would Whoopi Goldberg say?

  201. Looking Glass

    @Leap of Beta:

    Realistically, staying in a relationship with a Man that a Woman claims raped her is a sure-fire sign that the issue can’t be proven. That’s why you have to assume the negative. But, from what we know about Female psychology, she’s actually likely to be more attracted to the Man, if she was attracted to him in the first place.

    So we can’t truly assume she’s lying, if she didn’t instantly break off the relationship and go to the police. But we can assume she’s an idiot with a lack of self-control. There are consequences for Sin. There are consequences for living life outside of classical protections, as those protections existed for a reason.

  202. Looking Glass

    @Kitty:

    You don’t get to complain when you pulled out the Attempted Trapping Question stupidity. You might also want to look up the historical definition of “rape”. It’ll help your thinking.

    As for my response via question, it actually wasn’t a Red Herring attempt to trap. Since you’re on this part of the internet, it’s safe to assume you’re not a virgin and have used some form of hormonal birth control. So it’s an actual issue, unlike yours. If you haven’t and you’re still a virgin, good for you! Though the likelihood of me making the wrong assumption is low.

  203. Ton

    SSM, your advice on topic is worthless because men would then have to marry, which is a shit deal, likely lead to pert near no sex as is way to common and most likely, the man would have to marry a slut, which makes the deal even worse.

    So it would literally be going from the frying pain to the fire

    [ssm: No, they wouldn’t be sluts if they followed my advice. They’d be virgin brides. And there would be no spousal rape laws under my scenario. Make of that what you will. However, as I noted, you perhaps may be happier under the current system because you seem like one of those top-dog alpha types who can rent with no need to buy. The rest of us aren’t in your situation.]

  204. deti

    Leap:

    Let me preface my remarks by saying the Bible is crystal clear that the girlfriend should not be having any kind of sex with anyone, including her boyfriend.

    The gray areas in exactly what constitutes consent and under what circumstances, are exactly the reasons for this. This is one of the main reasons why Biblically, sex is confined to marriage – because in a Biblical marriage you never get into questions of consent or withholding or force. It’s also why in the OT bible, a man who fornicated with a woman was considered married to her. “You break it, you bought it. You wanted her bad enough to sex her? Congratulations. She’s yours now, for as long as you both shall live.”

    Anyway, in a sexual relationship outside marriage, it’s probably not reasonable for a BF to presume standing consent to sex. No, he’s got to get at least implied consent for every sex act. Now for women and men in LTR/serial monogamy arrangements, they’re acting like married couples and so as a practical matter, consent is implied (until it’s not) and they’re together (until one of them decides they’re not).

    (I made this point at Dalrock’s a while ago. The reason an LTR or serial monogamy isn’t really a marriage and can be dangerous or injurious to its participants is because the LTR has only the contours and characteristics both parties agree to at any given time. That LTR is whatever they both agree that it is. If one party decides “I don’t want to give you BJs anymore” or “I don’t want to have sex with you anymore”, then that’s the relationship. It’s just unilaterally been altered, and the other party has NOTHING to say about it, other than to accept it or move on. If one party says “I don’t want to be in this relationship anymore”, then just like that, it’s over. All the commitment, sunk costs, investment of time, effort and money, and sexual access – POOF – All gone. Gone in whatever time it takes to say the words. That’s why LTRs are not “little marriages” – because marriage, at least biblically, has a very preset, very defined meaning. And LTRs in which God is not involved in deciding what the contours and characteristics of their relationship are, are not anything like marriages.)

    So I agree – I’m skeptical of believing a woman who decides that her high school BF raped her 6 months into the relationship and she broke up with him after another year; and comes to that conclusion in her late 20s, 10 years after the fact. I’m not so skeptical of believing a woman who claimed to have been raped in her last sexual encounter with her BF of a year when she breaks up with him right afterwards and reports it to the cops and tells her friends about it; and keeps her story straight.

    But hey, they could have avoided all that by not having sex with the guys.

  205. Looking Glass

    For the crowd (I just can’t resist on this one):

    Compare typing this:
    “Jesus would never condone rape, so why are you?”

    Then in the response to others calling her out:

    “It seems like you’re very interested in elevating the discourse and not simply bullying opposing viewpoints off of the page.”

    This is such classic “don’t hit me, I’m a girl!” and Feminine Imperative twisting, I can’t help but laugh.

  206. Cail Corishev

    I don’t have any children, so I don’t get the joke.

    (I know I shouldn’t bother answering this, but what the hey…)

    It’s not a joke; it’s an example of using your own dishonest “debating” tactic against you. You arrived here and saw ideas you didn’t like, but instead of engaging in the conversation and trying to argue against those ideas, you jumped straight to accusing us of condoning rape. This is supposed to put us on the defensive, so we’ll all apologize for giving you that impression and drop the conversation lest we offend you further. It’s meant to stifle opposing arguments so you don’t have to engage them.

    I’m sure that tactic works very well for you in most situations, but it won’t get you anywhere here; we’re too used to it. You’re right: it’s a bullying tactic, which is why I responded in kind. What’s true on the playground is true online: the only way to deal with a bully is to stand up to him and give him a taste of his own medicine, preferably doubled.

  207. Leap of a Beta

    @ Deti

    Yeah, I understand that Christians shouldn’t be having sex outside of marriage at all. The question was poised more as a question of how you’d advise navigating current society as it is, not how it should be.

    Anyways, as I suspected, we agree on every point.

  208. Hannah

    Interestingly, the naked picture of the man with weapons sticking out of his groin at the top of this post is very revealing (not just in the obvious way!)
    Whatever feminist conjured up this image, it shows an unconscious knowledge of the truth.
    I said this in a previous post: “a penis is incredibly powerful.”
    Those with a penis hold power in every way and those that don’t covet what they do not have.
    Men are rational and creative, they design, build, dominate and conquer.
    This is God-created, God-given and male only.
    Is it fair? It doesn’t have to be, who are we to question God?

    Feminists recognise this inequality and crave the POWER they do not have.
    They will never rest until they crush the natural order by any subverted evil means necessary.

    Feminism is a revolution that needs attacking with a COUNTER-REVOLUTION.
    Time to reclaim Patriarchy!!!

  209. Looking Glass

    @Hannah:

    I think we’re all a little wrapped up on “Power” and misconstrue it. Females have always had *massive* amounts of true Power. Both now and historically. What they always lack (and always will) is personal “Force”. Outside of a position of influence or skill at manipulation, a Woman lacks the ability to enforce her ideas upon others. (We live in a Physical world, after all, so Physics rules the day)

    This is why Feminists covet the positions of Power, as its their only means to gain Force. No amount of bloviated writing gets you into a position of Power, but by convincing a group of Powerful Men that it’s useful, you gain a lot. It goes to the logical fallacy inherent in the idiom “the pen is mightier than the sword”. No, it isn’t. A “pen” that can raise an army is better than a sword, assuming you already have the army there. But as there is maybe 1000 Men to ever walk the Earth that could truly do that, it’s really about cultural positioning and physical prowess that raises armies. And Money.

  210. Hannah

    Looking Glass, I misread what you wrote as this:

    “the penis is mightier than the sword”.

    Yep!

  211. FuzzieWuzzie

    Hannah,
    Did you say counter-revolution?

    SSM,
    Had you went to Stanford instead of Michigan, you could have attended lectures by Alexander Kerensky instead of Catherine McKinnon. (No, I didn’t go there.)

  212. Kitty

    I’m only 16, born and raised Catholic, so please, keep your filthy assumptions to yourself. Not that it would matter if I actually was on hormonal birth control or not a virgin. As Jesus said in Matthew 7:1-2 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”

    I hope that you will reflect on your words and return to God.

    [ssm: Kitty, are your parents aware of what kind of sites you visit on the internet? Sites like GOMI and frankly, my blog, are intended for adults. Please don’t post here again unless you have your father’s permission to do so. You will need to confirm that you asked him and that he consented.

    Also, given Kitty’s minor status, I respectfully request that adult male readers not communicate with her directly anymore on the topic of sexuality. Thank you for understanding.]

  213. ANorthernObserver

    A woman is exhausted from a long day of physical labour. She’s tired, she’s sore, she just wants to sleep. Her husband says he wants to have sex. She explains the situation, and says she’d much rather do it some other time. He pushes her onto the bed, and forcibly has sex with her. She screams, hits him, trying to get him to stop.

    This story is fishy. Based on “Mrs Yes”‘s blog, there were times when her husband wanted to “go for it” when she was that tired, she said “yes”, and then fell asleep in the middle of the action. It was regrettable to “Mrs Yes” that she didn’t stay awake for the duration, it also wasn’t “that” big a deal for her.

    That the “wife” in this story claims to be “tired and sore” followed by “screaming and fighting” while the husband “forcibly has sex with her” suggests a completely different dynamic than what “A Man” is positing. Assuming this isn’t a “scenario” they’ve setup ahead of time, husbands in a loving marital relationship don’t treat their wives this way. “Men” (and the quotes are intentional) who are engaging in domestic abuse do.

    Mrs Yes’s blog: http://dontsayno2012.blogspot.ca/

  214. Leap of a Beta

    Kitty,
    How about you read the whole part of Matthew, instead of stopping where it’s convenient for you? I suggest until verse 20, for a good rounded view of how to view of what God asks of forgiveness, love, and avoidance of those who bring evil and pain into the world. One minute of reading, five of contemplation, and a lifetime of learning wisdom might save you from some pain at the hands of others who have good intentions yet bring such pain into the world, let alone those that do so deliberately.

    “19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.”

    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%207&version=KJV

  215. Leap of a Beta

    In that light, the pleas of people to marry sluts rings very hollow, for they haven’t really brought much good fruit into the world in terms of their previous relationships.

    To those continuing to read that part of Matthew, I would imagine that this part of the internet views the lies of Feminism to be the lies of those that built their house upon the sands. The walls are crashing down as the waves of time, reality, and God’s plan inevitably show them to be founded on lies. We here are in search of the Rock to found our lives upon, and believe that we have found it (or are in the process of doing so).

    Time and God will show which of us are right, when we see whose house falls in upon itself.

  216. Leap of a Beta

    @ SSM

    Sorry, just read your addition to Kitty’s comment after I posted my two comments, otherwise I wouldn’t have done so. You can delete them or not at your discretion, or possibly email them if she provided an actual email and you deem them relevant to her. I’d think the lesson to consider all of what a Biblical lesson is trying to teach as relevant to someone of any age, which is why I posted it to her. I simply worry about her landing in a world of hurt if she’s internalized the ‘Don’t judge me’ script society screams at youth to the point where she can maul scripture so thoroughly.

  217. Chris_Williams

    “Farewell. Since you were basically respectful and rational, you are welcome to come back in the future if you wish to discuss anything else.”

    Your decision, of course, but just so you know, A Man is most likely “Tad”. A banned homosexual atheist from the Vox Popoli blog who, among other things, likened open displays of Christianity to public defecation. Pretty laughable to think that his kind are (A) concerned about proper interpretation of scripture, and (B) intent on strengthening heterosexual Christian marital relations. He’s been known to post under different names, violate blog rules, and lie about his sexual orientation to evade banning. Far from being respectful or rational, he’s a proven liar who hides his true demeanor whenever he needs to use another alias online. Eventually, he “loses it” and rants against commenters who are “racist”, “homophobic”, or otherwise offensive. Not exactly the sort of stuff the average reader here wants to see.

  218. ANorthernObserver

    @SSM – I would submit that no adult should be communicating with a minor on topics sexuality unless they are the minor’s parents or health-care provider.

    [ssm: Yes, I think you are right. I think even female readers should probably refrain from discussing adult topics with Kitty. Anything other than Scripture is probably off-limits, I’d say.]

  219. sunshinemary

    LoaB – It’s probably okay to discuss Scripture with her, I would think.

    But for obvious reasons, both for her well-being as well as for the protection of my male readers, there should be no discussion about any adult topics with her.

  220. You are an idiot

    You are an idiot.

    I imagine your pov would change, had you ever been raped (or your child, or mother).

  221. sunshinemary

    No, even if I or a family member were raped (God forbid), I still would not define rape as drunken regret sex nor would I agree that colleges should have jurisdiction over this. Rape should be reported to the police. End of story.

  222. Leap of a Beta

    @ You are an Idiot

    “I imagine your pov would change, had you ever been raped (or your child, or mother).”

    If I survive assault, would the pain I go through give me the right to decide that I should:

    1 Redefine assault to rape
    2. Inspire a society to hold the belief that Rape is a “Guilty until proven innocent” crime, against our constitution and good sense
    3. Continually increase the punishment for being found guilty of Rape
    4. Inspire colleges to take policing Rape into their own hands

    Do you really not see that this is what is being done? Rape is a certain act. Sexual harassment is a different act. Drinking and making poor decisions is a different act.

    And all of these are continually being redefined. Rape and sexual assault have become broader, with more things constituting rape that were previously sexual assault, and more things that were previously considered two young adults being monumentally stupid being considered sexual assault. Meanwhile it becomes increasingly ok for claims to be made without any validation from a trained professional whose job it is to protect people from crimes – IE the POLICE and not THE COLLEGE.

    Pain does not give you right to redefine things. It gives you right to seek justice for the crimes committed. if no crime was committed and you still feel pain, that is called making poor choices from which you will have to suffer the consequences.

  223. Looking Glass

    @SSM:

    I honestly haven’t had that good of a laugh in a long, long while. It felt good. I honestly don’t believe she’s 16, though I would believe she was raised Catholic. Mostly as she at least quoted the proper English translation of the Bible. So she’s at least got that.

    Not that she gets any of the context of the passage from Matthew or the other explanations for “judging” others. Nor does she understand the concept of “judging” from the Bible. (Here’s a hint: I didn’t say you should be sent to a governing body to be “judged” by them.)

    I especially enjoy the fact she tried the “judge not, lest ye be judged” defense… after accusing everyone of being apologists for rapists. You can’t buy this level of illogic at Whole Foods on a future “Free Pot with a $100 purchase” day. (When pot gets mostly legal, you know those are happening. It’s just good business)

  224. Deep Strength

    @ Looking Glass

    You can buy that level of illogic at big pharma and agricultural subsidization though. ;)

  225. Looking Glass

    @Deep Strength:

    Maybe, but the big pharma needs a full team of statistical analysts to torture logic that far. Impressive personal feats always stand out more.

  226. Berra

    Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the realities of nonconsensual sex by volunteering as a rape advocate. You would essentially be on call for when someone called to report a rape to the center, wanting someone to sustain their courage while they submit to a rape kit and police questioning. You need courage. Most likely you’ve been assaulted by someone you knew, trusted, liked. You said no, you pushed, you cried, you don’t know what you could’ve done differently. This is the worst thing that has happened to you in your life, but the police are not ones to express sympathy. They’re asking if he didn’t call you back, if you’re just upset that he has a girlfriend? They’re asking why you let him into your apartment, even though you’ve hung out there before and were on your way out to a number of platonic social or cultural events. They’re shaking their head if they hear that you’ve said yes in the past no matter how many times you were screaming no that night. They’re wondering why you had one drink, or too many, in the past evening, or ever. Suddenly you’re on trial. You went to them because you don’t have to prove that you were raped. That’s their job. But they aren’t interested. The police shrug off your violation because hey, you’re alive, even though you’re terrified – what if it happens again? You didn’t know he was capable of this. You don’t know who else is. You don’t know what happens now. But here’s what does: nothing. Your report is left untouched over he-said-she-said nonsense. His life goes on. You don’t understand how you’re supposed to do the same because you did nothing wrong but everyone is blaming you for your good intentions, but not his bad ones. You find a therapist, go to group meetings, and bury your face in your hands when so many faces nod in a circle when a girl talks about how she kept dating her rapist another month so she could pretend it wasn’t actually rape, she just wasn’t ready but he loved her a lot and couldn’t wait so that made it okay. And another girl talks about how her parents told her she would break up the family if they went to a police, so she plays nice during family reunions. And another had friends pull away from her because she joined a protest about backlogged rape kits – millions untested nationwide – and just kept throwing her rape in their faces. You can count on one hand how many of their rapes saw trial, but you can’t name the number how many times people on the internet presume women are always believed when they say they are raped. Your best friend told a guy she wanted to impress with her peripheral life experiences that you were assaulted, and he replies, “Like every girl I know thinks she’s been raped,” and it’s a joke not a nightmare. And nobody wants to hear about rape when it isn’t a punchline. And Daniel Tosh gets away with calling, “Wouldn’t it be funny if this woman was raped, like, right now?” a joke. A threat that isn’t acted upon is no less a threat. You will always live with this reality. Not every man is a rapist, but so what? You’re the one who has to smile and be accommodating and listen to men call your boundaries a tease while living in fear that you’ll find another one. You can spend the rest of your life sober in sweatpants with an 8pm curfew but none of those things will protect you when someone else chooses to rape you, you’ll just be blamed for not doing enough. Because maybe if we blame rape victims for everything they do wrong, we’ll figure out which magical advice column will keep us from getting raped.

    And when you point out that we’re having the wrong side of the conversation as a society, people will roll their eyes that of course rape is a crime and men know not to rape. Do they know what rape is? Do you? You’re really an awful person.

  227. sunshinemary

    So. Dr. Illusion has described the false rape accusation that was brought against him. Now Danny from 504 has written a post about a false sexual assault accusation that was leveled against him:

    i was stationed in new orleans and there was a girl there i was feeling. she turned me down when i asked her out. no big deal, i never brought it up again. one day i’m at my pad watching TV and there’s a knock on my door.

    it was her.

    i was surprised and asked what she was doing at my place and she said, “i was in the neighborhood, thought i’d come say hello.” (first red flag). i let her in, we sat on the sofa talking. she finally said, “i know you like me, so are you gonna get over here and kiss me or not.”

    game on.

    we’re fooling around, her shirt and bra is off. i’m uh….applying digital stimulation. then she says, “God that feels good, but i don’t know about this.” i immediately stopped. got up, and walked into my bed room. i was 100% in “gonna fuck” mode. i needed to get my head together and i have a topless chick with her jeans to her knees on my sofa.

    i walked back into the living room. she was still undressed. “you ok Danny?” i said, “i think you should probably leave. you don’t seem like you’re sure about this and i don’t want you to regret this.” she said nothing. she got dressed and i let her out.

    2 weeks passed. i told ONE.PERSON about it. a girl. a lesbian girl that was a mutual friend. well one day i got told to report to chiefs office. there was my chief and the clinics security officer. i was asked about the incident. i told them it’s personal and was told by security “it’s not personal when ‘inappropriate behavior’ and ‘unwanted sexual advances’ charges are made

    jaw, meet floor.

    i then went into detail about the incident, though i REFUSED to make an “official” statement. i left the office and was in a daze for the rest of the day. i got a call from lesbian friend that found out i was talked to and informed me that she- the girl (the one that came to my place) told a girl, then girl told others, a few guys found out and started coming on to her since they heard she was DTF.

    she accused me of coming on to her despite not wanting to do anything and NEVER mentioned showing up to my house. then i learned there was going to be an investigation and it didn’t look too good for me, a case was being made for me to be sent to DRB (disciplinary review board) to show the command takes this seriously. after DRB, you got to NJP (nonjudicial punishment-Mast).

    i was fucked. i mean seriously fucked. my chief (a personal friend) told me the persons pushing for this were 2 female chiefs. but…..i was saved JUST 3 days before my scheduled DRB.

    the lesbian friend made an official statement that my accuser admitted to her that she went to my house, came on to me, and i stopped when she mentioned “not being sure.” she had to SWEAR that her statement were true. i was let off the hook. guess what happened to my accuser.

    NOTHING. not a damn thing. she was even rewarded with specialty training after she left for a job that pays VERY well on the outside.

    You know when feminists show you this graphic? Don’t be fooled by pictures and memes. This is far more common than men realize.

  228. Looking Glass

    @SSM:

    I’m starting to have an appreciation for the stereotypical “No girlz allowed!” tree house of old. It’s just a lot safer to treat your home like that.

    As to Berra’s… I don’t think that was a point more of a random story, it is as it always will be: When you court disaster, disaster falls upon you. “Proof” of a crime is important, otherwise you can haul anyone off and toss them in prison. Crimes without Proof is simply tyranny.

    But, like always comes up in these topics, you have a personal responsibility to your own safety. If you abdicate that responsibility, you are leaving up the result to the winds of chance. Which is why all He Said-She Said cases have to start with “okay, how many catastrophically stupid mistakes did you make before we get to the contested sex?”. There are almost always quite a number. Those stupid decisions make showing any fault very difficult.

  229. Hannah

    Dr Illusion and Danny from 504’s situations are like modern day versions of Joseph and Potiphar’s wife.

    What Berra is describing is more akin to the rape of Dinah by Shechem or the rape of Tamar by Amnon.

    They are poles apart. Any of these situations can ruin a person’s life – but in the first instances it is the man whose life is torn apart rather than the woman.

    Both situations have my sympathies. Berra I relate to much of what you have said… you sound genuine so I will respond when my littlies are asleep tonight. In the meantime, do you believe in the one true God, the God of Israel?

  230. freebird

    You will note the certain person insisted marriage was *not* a religious contract.

    She wants to push the idea of God and
    his ownership of his children from the equation.

    Some other folks grow upset at the idea of ssm carrying a firearm for her God-Given Right to self defense.

    Another slam to God-given Rights.

    Another God-given right is the presumption of innocence,and the punishment of false witnesses.

    They would have that out as well.

    They buck at the idea of a man and woman being required to marry after engaging in sex,because they seek to deny the one-flesh doctrine,and also wish to purse harlotry.

    I say good on you for caring enough about your God given life that would protect it,and others,if possible.

    The chances of it being just a ‘man’ attacker are small,compared to certain racial demographics and other factors such as hard drug use,a ‘crackhead whore’ may be more likely to attack for any number of reasons,or no reason at all,except you look like the ‘other.’

    All these factors have ONE thing in common-the denial of the natural order of life,spelled out in the Bible.

    Which is why it’s easy to define liberal feminists as being a ‘death-cult,’ because that is exactly what they are,and so has a great percentage of students and faculty at the once proud Blue and Gold UOfM.

    Now home to misandrist feminazi death-cult law professors that move to the Federal level and make anti-family ‘law.’

    Do you know what the plan is?

    1.Demonize men and make them ashamed for who they are.
    2.Break their confidence and remove dominance and approaching so
    3.The lesbians can move in on your daughters leaving you with
    4.No grandchildren and a bull dike for a ‘son-in-law.’

    There was a reason for the stonings of the old testament,to put the death away from the people,so that life could exist disease free.
    This society has turned it’s back on life,and embraced the kiss of death from the queer,lesbian,and feminazi death-cults.

    All of this has been pushed by the PTB under the guise of advancing women,when the end result is their destruction.

  231. FuzzieWuzzie

    Considering the level of response, this post and comment thread have hit a real sore spot.
    I’m beginning to think that this is not so much about rape but about power.
    I keep thinking about Joseph spending seven years in Pharoh’s prison for refusing Potiphar’s wife.
    Feminists want all women to have that power.

  232. theshadowedknight

    An appeal to emotion and the protective instinct. Effective when dealing with those who disdain the use of rational thought, but not here. Allow me to explain further.

    Your first point is that true rape victims are not taken at face value by the authorities. Who is at fault here? The police? Maybe they have a reason why they assume it is not legitimate? Like, say:

    http://www.the-spearhead.com/2013/03/03/false-conviction-rate-for-rape-historically-higher-than-claimed-false-accusation-rate/

    Or this:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2284677/Compulsive-liar-Elizabeth-Jones-cried-rape-11-times-jailed.html

    Could their indifference and doubt have reasons beyond a simple hatred of women? All the false rape that we are discussing takes away from the serious nature of true rape. Who do you think has to deal with the false rapes but the police? They see all the false rapes and find it easier for assume deceit on the part of the woman. That is the fault of the women making false rape reports, not the police.

    Then you complain about men disbelieving the prevalence of rape. I will offer a personal anecdote, and while it is not definitive, it is a common theme. I know four men–including my own brother–who have been false raped by a regretful woman. They are not going to believe the next rape accusation they hear. The men they know will not believe in the woman, either. When false rape is that prevalent, try getting the men burned by another woman to believe a true rape. They will sneer and tell you that they have heard that line before. Who is at fault here? The women false raping men, not their victims and their social circle.

    Finally, you want to be excused from consequences of your actions and choices. If you have a drunk man in your room, you are naked and tipsy yourself, and something happens? I. Do. Not. Care. You made foolish decision after stupid decision, and you suffer for it. You and your kind made rape a farce and now you are offended because men have caught on. Of course men are going to joke about rape; you made it into a joke in the first place. They are just playing along.

    As I said earlier, I do not care. You women are the architect of the situation about which you are now whining. Men have no duty to save you from the trouble you now face. That was “Patriarchy,” and it was “oppressive.” No more; now you are on your own. You have to take responsibility for yourselves. If you want some advice, staying sober and having a curfew is a great start. Consider carrying a firearm for the violent stranger rapists. That should do to keep your virtue–or at least your person–safe.

    The Shadowed Knight

  233. Pingback: An Assault of Accusations « stagedreality

  234. Leap of a Beta

    @ Fuzzie

    “Considering the level of response, this post and comment thread have hit a real sore spot.
    I’m beginning to think that this is not so much about rape but about power.
    I keep thinking about Joseph spending seven years in Pharoh’s prison for refusing Potiphar’s wife.
    Feminists want all women to have that power.”

    Nah. Institutions want all the power. They just use the emotionally damaged, whether those individuals are victims or not, to get it.

  235. Emma the Emo

    Oh boy. The marital rape debate!

    If you married someone, and the marital contract says “You consent to all sex with this guy within the marriage, and if he forces you into sex, you agree to not call it rape”, then any sort of “rape” inside a marriage is no longer a rape. Because whatever contracts you sign MATTER. You consented to this sex by signing it.

    “But forcing someone to have sex is still a crime of rape!!!”

    Uh, no.

    Has anyone heard of a service, where you pay money to be kidnapped and held in a cell for a few hours? That is actually a thing. You pay these people, and they kidnap you at some unspecified time, at a specified day. You sign a contract saying you wanted this. Can you later be dissatisfied with the service, and accuse the company of kidnapping? You CAN, but you’re a dick with no moral compass if you do, and you probably won’t be taken seriously.

  236. FuzzieWuzzie

    Leap,
    Power is one thing, abuse of it is something else. Could we not be seeing a lot of abuse and are we not objecting to it?
    The straw huts in the OP may be the end result of that abuse.

  237. Kitty

    Mary, at some point I hope you can escape the prison of self-hatred you’ve been locked in, and find God’s true glory. We were born naked, full and in his perfect image. I’m sorry you’ve been brainwashed by the church, and left the path that God has for you. One day I pray that you will leave the Pharisees and follow Jesus again.

    [ssm: Since you haven’t followed my instruction to get parental permission to participate here, this will be the final comment from you that I will allow.]

  238. ANorthernObserver

    @Berra –
    You went to them because you don’t have to prove that you were raped. That’s their job.

    No, the police’s job is to investigate complaints to see if there’s a basis for the allegation. It’s not their job to prove the complainant is right. As you can see from the following comment in the “rape graphic” thread, the number of false accusations give them reason to be doubtful – which is why women with real cases aren’t taken as seriously as they would otherwise.

    @ssm – your graphic had a telling comment:
    Arm Fancy The ‘falsely accused’ I find to be highly inaccurate. I was a rape crisis counselor at the ER for a few years. Once I told the women I was their advocate, there to be supportive and help with legal process- that anything they told me was confidential- about half of them said they made it up. Reasons commonly being 1. They were mad at the person for any number of reasons, 2. Got caught having sex with dude by husband, bf 3. They were just crazy.
    Rape is a real problem- but so is people falsely accusing innocent people!

  239. Hannah

    Berra, If you’re still reading I wanted you to hear this.

    Sexual assault has horrendous repercussions… I believe that with all certainty.
    I also accept the reasons you put forward for why a woman might not report the assault to the police.
    But I do not accept that those emotional reasons are justification to put all sexual assault into the same basket.

    What you have missed is the self-deception that will take place within a woman who was assaulted.
    I am a believer of the One True God – the Creator of heaven and earth, the God of Israel, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
    He has let us know that the marriage bed is undefiled.
    It stands to reason that sex in any other context actually DEFILES the woman.
    de•file 1 (d -f l )
    1. To make filthy or dirty; pollute: defile a river with sewage.
    2. To debase the pureness or excellence of; corrupt: a country landscape that was defiled by urban sprawl.
    3. To profane or sully (a reputation, for example).
    4. To make unclean or unfit for ceremonial use; desecrate: defile a temple.
    5. To violate the chastity of.

    Having sex outside of marriage OR being sexually assaulted will cause shame to a greater or lesser degree.
    I suspect that this shame is suppressed more readily by less rational women than others. But I firmly believe that the shame of being defiled is what causes women to look around to blame anyone but herself for this feeling she has.

    Some people say every sexual assault is equal but to me that is filthy nonsense.
    Consider these scenarios:

    1.An infant is brutally sexually attacked by a relative (case here in N.Z)

    2.A 14 year old girl is sexually attacked by a friend’s father at a sleepover one night.

    3.An 18 year old woman is sexually attacked by a guy who she went home with after a night of binge-drinking.

    These cases are not equal. The first is is heinous beyond words.
    The second is straight forward non-consensual sexual interaction.
    The third while being non-consensual at it’s end still places some accountability on the woman’s side.

    Leaving the first horror out of this, both the 14 year old child and the 18 year old woman have one thing in common – they are filled with shame.

    Neither will be the same again. Assuming they were both virgins, both have lost their purity and their innocence. This is tragic.
    Both will replay what happened and wonder what else they could have done. Both will engage in self-loathing despite being told they are not to blame.

    The incredibly difficult pill to swallow though is this:
    The woman who was drinking and chose to sleep with a stranger but then later changed her mind for whatever reason DOES bear some responsibility.
    She did not choose to be sexually assaulted. That is the man’s free-will in action.
    But the woman IS in control of her own decisions leading up to the event where the man did not respect her saying NO.
    She CHOSE to drink outside of the safety of her father’s supervision.
    She CHOSE to make herself desirable and available to men in a drinking environment.
    She CHOSE to leave with one particular man and willingly went back to his own home without the protection of her friends.
    Those choices are risky at best, crushingly life-altering at worst.

    It takes much courage to take responsibility for all the decisions you make in your life.
    It takes brutal self-examination to learn from your mistakes and not become bitter.

    You wrote:
    “You can spend the rest of your life sober in sweatpants with an 8pm curfew but none of those things will protect you when someone else chooses to rape you.”

    True. Without the protection of your father or husband you are always vulnerable. In all arenas.

    As a female I have to accept that I cannot physically overpower any male over the age of 10 or so. I can lift 15kg on each arm with no problems so it’s not that I’m weak for a girl, but the way God made females means the muscle distribution is never a match for a male.
    That’s just the nature of things.

    Protecting yourself from another possible attack is a sensible approach.
    Sweatpants are not the answer, God created you to be feminine! Don’t let the devil win this. Wear lovely floaty dresses and embrace your femininity. But you must protect your borders. For me this means acknowledging that every interaction with an adult male has the possibility of sexual connection. (Consensual or not)
    Due to this reason, I will not flirt with any male nor be alone with any male outside of my family.
    This is not fear based, rather it is a choice of modesty.
    Protecting my boundaries.

    Titus 2 3-5
    “…the older women likewise, that they be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things— that they admonish the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, homemakers, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be blasphemed.”

    Feminism is selling you a BIG FAT LIE.
    It sells you Individualism and Equality under the name of progression.

    But things are going backwards at an alarming rate.
    The Patriarchal system of old maintained civilisation for thousands of years and we’ve seen it destroyed in around the same time the Israelites were in the wilderness. Devastating.

    Sunshine Mary is NOT awful as you say Berra. She is insightful and she is pointing out the decay that is all around us.
    Be courageous and see for yourself.

  240. Höllenhund

    The situation is very simple. Women demand to have the legal power to ruin the life of any man on a whim if they want to. That’s all there is to this issue.

  241. Farm Boy

    . Women demand to have the legal power to ruin the life of any man on a whim if they want to.

    That seems about right. TWB (Talking While Beta) is a grievous offense.

  242. an observer

    the police’s job is to investigate complaints to see if there’s a basis for the allegation

    The word is evidence. Police are notoriously lazy. Without evidence, they wont pursue anything. Except a handsome retirement pension, and the coming bond crisis could put those benefits in doubt.

  243. Sarah's Daughter

    I have a question for the women who are coming here from GOMI.

    What is it you want to have happen? The end goal, what can you see would be the solution?

    Some of the gentlemen here presume you don’t have an end goal in mind, just a desire for power over men. Is that it?

    In homes like mine across this country this is what is happening:
    -My husband is never alone with a woman who is not me, a sister, his mother, or his daughters. We go to any lengths necessary to prevent it. When he was a Platoon Leader and a female LT needed a ride from the hospital to her home, he refused to have any male in his Platoon drive her. He instead had me drive her in my truck while he followed behind in her car. We inconvenience ourselves so that there is never a way a false accusation can be made.
    -We teach this to our son. While this will change the dynamics of dating for him, he is well aware that it is not worth the risk.
    -We are teaching our daughters the effects of alcohol. In the privacy of our home, they are able to drink and understand what happens as a result of drinking. Then we talk very openly about it. How they are less reserved and how that translates when they are around boys. We watch movies with them that highlight the party culture so they can see it. We show them slutwalk videos and talk with them about the lack of logic involved. We talk about risk avoidance.
    -We teach them, by example, risk avoidance. We do not go places that are high risk. That means, in the city I live now (#8 most dangerous city for women) we do not go anywhere at night unaccompanied. The only places they are allowed to spend the night are homes that we have closely vetted and are sure about.

    I have told these things to women before and they’ve told me that all the prevention in the world might not be enough. (Even if that’s true, it still doesn’t make sense to not do these things).

    But yet I’m still left with the question. What? What is it that women want to see happen?

  244. deti

    It is NOT the job of police to “prove” that a woman was raped. It is police’s job to investigate and gather evidence. In a sex crime case, the main source of evidence is the complainant, her body and the physical evidence in and on it (if any), her reputation and her character. Police are aware of this. They are also aware that almost always, the only two eyewitnesses are the complainant and the accused. Police also have to be concerned with the following:

    1. The complainant’s sexual history
    2. The complainant’s general character and reputation for truthfulness
    3. The complainant’s relationship to the accused
    4. The span of time between the event and reporting to anyone – friends; medical personnel; police; pastors, etc.
    5. The facts and circumstances leading up to the alleged assault
    6. The corroborating physical evidence, if any
    7. Evidence from eyewitnesses to facts and circumstances leading up to the alleged assault
    8. Evidence from the scene – DNA, hair samples, semen and blood, etc.
    9. Rape kit evidence
    10. The accused’s sexual history, his general character and reputation for truthfulness
    11. How the complainant presents as a witness
    12. How the accused presents as a witness

    This is why the complainant will often be interrogated over and over again about what happened. The police and prosecutors need to be able to explain away exculpatory evidence. They need to be able to explain any inconsistencies in her story, on one hand; and in any other evidence; on the other. If her story doesn’t add up, she’ll be pressed on it.

    They have to be able to counter evidence of any of the following:

    1. she had dated the accused before
    2. she had had consensual sex with him before
    3. She has a reputation for promiscuity
    4. She has a reputation as a liar or failing to give truthful statements to police
    5. She has a reputation as a “party girl” or for drunkenness
    6. Her past criminal history
    7. She was the accused’s FWB or girlfriend
    8. She was or is the accused’s wife
    9. She might be retaliating for his bad conduct – he had an affair; he had assaulted her in the past; he asked for a divorce; etc.
    10. How many times has she reported being sexually assaulted to police or school administrators. Is this the first time or the 6th time?
    11. How many different men has she complained of sexually assaulting her? Is this the first one, or the 5th?

    It simply goes against everything about criminal procedure and justice to proclaim that a woman claiming rape should “simply be believed” because “women don’t lie about rape”. Sexual assault and rape are CRIMES. They are CRIMINAL OFFENSES that carry long prison terms. They are not to be taken lightly. If a man is convicted of rape, he’s going to jail for a long time. His life is over. He’s probably going to be raped himself or killed in prison. That’s why we need to be damn sure that rape or assault is what REALLY HAPPENED. That’s why police press, and press, and push hard, to find every weakness in the evidence.

    That’s why claims of “I think I might have been raped” is not going to cut it.

    It’s not good enough to say “I passed out and woke up naked in his bed. I must have been drugged and raped”.

    It’s not good enough to say “I didn’t want to have sex with him but I went along with it because I loved him. I know I came across as consenting, but I didn’t really want to. Therefore he raped me.”

    It’s not good enough to say “I’m married to him but he talked me, caressed me and cajoled me into sex. Therefore he raped me.”

    Even an indictment and subsequent acquittal is sufficient to ruin his life. Ask Steven Pagones, who was falsely accused of gang raping Tawana Brawley. Pagones was an attorney. He lost his job. His wife divorced him. He had to change jobs. He spent hundreds of thousands of dollars defending himself. Pagones was dismissed from the case when Brawley’s story fell apart. He sued his false accusers and got a defamation judgment against them.

    Ladies, the criminal justice system is serious, serious business. It exists to dispense justice, to deter crime, to punish those duly convicted, and to protect the public.

    It does NOT exist to fuck with some guy you don’t like.

    It does not exist to retaliate against some guy who cheated on you.

    It does not exist to assuage your morning-after guilt about sexing some guy after one too many tequila shots.

    It does not exist to make you feel better about regret sex.

  245. Leap of a Beta

    @ SSM

    Two false accusation stories, if you want to count the one in my archives already.

    The one I just wrote happened 10 years ago when I was 17 by a jealous female. The church then took advantage of the situation.

    The one in the archives was one that seems to come from the institution itself, whom was my employer at the time, rather than an individual. As far as I can tell the theatre company lied merely to make a few hundred dollars extra off me and get me out of their lives. Only reason I can think they’d want me gone is because I grew a red pill infused backbone during my time there.

    Mostly the point was to demonstrate that it isn’t just universities that use these accusations for their own benefit. Danny’s story shows the military, I’ve had an employer and a church do it. I’m sure there are others, and openly acknowledge I got off lightly in terms of material costs, though my trust has been shattered multiple times.

  246. sabrinapf

    I am 21 years old and attend college (Studying to become a librarian).

    Three years ago, at the age of 18, I had taken my dog for his nightly walk.

    We live in a quiet suburb. The houses that surround us filled with both young families and the elderly. Really, the type of “little” place that you can walk across the street to ask for a cup of sugar.

    The area is known for its racial and religious mix.

    I always took my dog for his nightly walk before I got ready for bed. Where I live is about three blocks from the local elementary school–which backs on a large wood.

    The school allows dogs in, after hours, as long as you (I’d say obviously but people don’t seem to clean up after their dogs anymore!!) clean up after. So, as I did every time, I let my dog off his lead and let him run around like a loon ’till he tired himself out. I sat and just enjoyed watching him.

    Someone came out of the wood with their own dog and let their dog loose. I watched as the man watched the dogs (I assumed to make sure they got along) and then walk towards me.

    He punched me in the face, knocked me out and dragged me into the woods.

    I was actually tied to a tree, gagged and raped twice. I sustained major injuries and am now paralyzed from the waist down. The ONLY thing that saved me, Ironically, was the mans dog…and my dog. When the man left he left his dog. My dog (rufus) sat by me whining and sniffing and licking me. His dog started to howl. Loudly. Very, very loudly. One of the people that lived next to the school heard the dog and came looking. The couple found the dogs and me.

    I went through several surgeries (still have some) and months of intense rehab to learn how to function in every way as someone who is paralyzed.

    Am I afraid of men? Of dogs? Of a wood?

    No.

    But I am disgusted by the attitudes highlighted in this wonderful article and by the people that have attacked it.

    Rape no longer has the impact, or the importance it once did. A comic can’t joke about rape (which doesn’t insult me. Don’t want to hear a rape joke? Don’t see the dang comic!!). And now? Now if a man accidentally brushes against a woman, or “insults” a woman…that girl/woman will cry rape:

    Rape is everywhere!! According to radical feminists! You better look out for that baker when he hands over the bread…if his fingers touch your hand? ASSAULT!!

    Am I angry that I was raped? Yes. My entire physical life was changed as a result. Am I angry at my rapist? Yes, but thanks to his dog (which I adopted when I learned it was to be destroyed. Many people found this ‘disturbing’ but the dog was not vicious and was about to be destroyed because his owner was a rapist.) and the two people that found me. I am alive. I am able to go to college and work towards a degree and hopefully, one day, become a children’s librarian.

    When I entered college I was bombarded by the “all men are rapists” message. At one mandatory meeting, with a Radical Feminist prof. that would put Chanty Binx to shame, the prof. asked if anyone had ever been raped. I actually didn’t want to speak up at that point because of how…scary this woman was. No one raised their hand. She asked “have you ever had sex and then felt real regret after?” Some girls slowly raised their hand. The Prof. said. Thats rape! If you don’t feel comfortable with sexual or physical contact, even after, then you could have been raped.

    I spoke up. I had too. Sadly, I completely lost it. It was weird in a way, I’d spoken to a therapist (part of the rehab programme), been through the court case, the interview with police…seeing my rapist. All of it. And at no time did I break down into a sobbing mess.

    But I did at that. I told that professor that what she’d defined wasn’t rape. At all. That I had been raped. I rember turning to the class and apologizing for what I was about to say.

    I told everything I could remember. Heck, I even screamed at some points. I remember looking at the professor (who was complety agog) and screaming, yes yelling at the end…”That was rape if some guy leers at you, or gropes you that is wrong but its not rape! If some guy makes a joke its not rape. If you have sex, fully and completely willing, and the next day you regret what you did. That. Is. Not. Rape! It’s regret. And you have every right to feel bad, and get tested, and complain to someone close to you. But it is not rape!”

    The class was silent. Lookimg back now, I think that I was lucky I didn’t get in trouble for the very last thing I said to the professor. Someone handed me a tissue and I blew my nose. The class applauded. When the applause stopped I looked at the professor and said “it’s people like you, classes like this that actually make light of rape. Actually have turned it into a joke. Rape isn’t some guy leering at you, it isn’t some guy making a pass, it isn’t some guy telling a joke or whistling or anything else. Rape isn’t waking up and saying “why did I have sex with him? man, that was so stupid.” Rape is being forced to have sex. forced. Do you know what being forced to have sex is?”

    So, I was then known as “that girl was actually raped and told off prof._____”

    The class didn’t change, the message that “all men are evil and out to get you” was still spread and the Radical Feminists grew. To me, it’s almost a crime. Because women aren’t being taught a thing…except how to be more afraid.

    -Jemma

  247. Jemma

    I am 21 years old and attend college (Studying to become a librarian).

    Three years ago, at the age of 18, I had taken my dog for his nightly walk.

    We live in a quiet suburb. The houses that surround us filled with both young families and the elderly. Really, the type of “little” place that you can walk across the street to ask for a cup of sugar.

    The area is known for its racial and religious mix.

    I always took my dog for his nightly walk before I got ready for bed. Where I live is about three blocks from the local elementary school–which backs on a large wood.

    The school allows dogs in, after hours, as long as you (I’d say obviously but people don’t seem to clean up after their dogs anymore!!) clean up after. So, as I did every time, I let my dog off his lead and let him run around like a loon ’till he tired himself out. I sat and just enjoyed watching him.

    Someone came out of the wood with their own dog and let their dog loose. I watched as the man watched the dogs (I assumed to make sure they got along) and then walk towards me.

    He punched me in the face, knocked me out and dragged me into the woods.

    I was actually tied to a tree, gagged and raped twice. I sustained major injuries and am now paralyzed from the waist down. The ONLY thing that saved me, Ironically, was the mans dog…and my dog. When the man left he left his dog. My dog (rufus) sat by me whining and sniffing and licking me. His dog started to howl. Loudly. Very, very loudly. One of the people that lived next to the school heard the dog and came looking. The couple found the dogs and me.

    I went through several surgeries (still have some) and months of intense rehab to learn how to function in every way as someone who is paralyzed.

    Am I afraid of men? Of dogs? Of a wood?

    No.

    But I am disgusted by the attitudes highlighted in this wonderful article and by the people that have attacked it.

    Rape no longer has the impact, or the importance it once did. A comic can’t joke about rape (which doesn’t insult me. Don’t want to hear a rape joke? Don’t see the dang comic!!). And now? Now if a man accidentally brushes against a woman, or “insults” a woman…that girl/woman will cry rape.

    Rape is everywhere! According to radical feminists. You better look out for that baker when he hands over the bread…if his fingers touch your hand? ASSAULT!!

    Am I angry that I was raped? Yes. My entire physical life was changed as a result. Am I angry at my rapist? Yes, but thanks to his dog (which I adopted when I learned it was to be destroyed. Many people found this ‘disturbing’ but the dog was not vicious and was about to be destroyed because his owner was a rapist.) and the two people that found me. I am alive. I am able to go to college and work towards a degree and hopefully, one day, become a children’s librarian.

    When I entered college I was bombarded by the “all men are rapists” message. At one mandatory meeting, with a Radical Feminist prof. that would put Chanty Binx to shame, the prof. asked if anyone had ever been raped. I actually didn’t want to speak up at that point because of how…scary this woman was. No one raised their hand. She asked “have you ever had sex and then felt real regret after?” Some girls slowly raised their hand. The Prof. said. “Thats rape! If you don’t feel comfortable with sexual or physical contact, even after, then you could have been raped.”

    I spoke up. I had too. Sadly, I completely lost it. It was weird in a way, I’d spoken to a therapist (part of the rehab programme), been through the court case, the interview with police…seeing my rapist. All of it. And at no time did I break down into a sobbing mess.

    But I did at that. I told that professor that what she’d defined wasn’t rape. At all. That I had been raped. I rember turning to the class and apologizing for what I was about to say.

    I told everything I could remember. Heck, I even screamed at some points. I remember looking at the professor (who was completley agog) and screaming, yes yelling at the end…”That was rape if some guy leers at you, or gropes you that is wrong but its not rape! If some guy makes a joke its not rape. If you have sex, fully and completely willing, and the next day you regret what you did. That. Is. Not. Rape! It’s regret. And you have every right to feel bad, and get tested, and complain to someone close to you. But it is not rape!”

    The class was silent. Looking back now, I think that I was lucky I didn’t get in trouble for the very last thing I said to the professor. Someone handed me a tissue and I blew my nose. The class applauded. When the applause stopped I looked at the professor and said “it’s people like you, classes like this that actually make light of rape. Actually have turned it into a joke. Rape isn’t some guy leering at you, it isn’t some guy making a pass, it isn’t some guy telling a joke or whistling or anything else. Rape isn’t waking up and saying “why did I have sex with him? Man, that was so stupid.” Rape is being forced to have sex. forced. Do you know what being forced to have sex is?”

    So, I was then known as “that girl was actually raped and told off prof._____”

    The class didn’t change, the message that “all men are evil and out to get you” was still spread and the Radical Feminists grew. To me, it’s almost a crime. Because women aren’t being taught a thing…except how to be more afraid.

    -Jemma

  248. Maude

    SSM, I hope you’re truly proud of the scum that’s crawled out of the woodwork here. Men who actually believe the only “real rape” is where both victim and perpetrator are equally attractive, and rapist uses a weapon or physical strength to restrain the victim. I feel sorry for your children.

  249. Deep Strength

    @ Jemma

    I’m sorry you went through that horrible experience. Thank you for sharing your story. It definitely shows how rape is being watered down.

    @ Maude

    Straw men everywhere. I feel sorry that you believe in a position that has no substance and is illogical.

  250. Höllenhund

    “If these trends continue, could we one day see men avoid all relations with women as a means of avoiding false rape, assault and harassment charges, just as they avoid marriage today?

    Sure, that may sound crazy and unthinkable, and I’m not necessarily saying that it’s going to happen.”

    Sort of, but not exactly. The entire purpose of this campaign (so to speak) is to make sure only alphas seek sex with women. This legal edifice is basically a tool to weed out betas and counterfeit alphas.

  251. TMyf

    I want to say this as politely as possible. This post has gotten a lot of attention. Please try to be aware that there may be rape victims reading this.

    Yes, I believe regretting sex does not make it rape. Yes, I believe there are false accusations.

    Due to feeling defiled I walked away from God when I was raped (I was 11, I was at school, I thought I was safe). I have since joined the Church again, but reading some of these comments have not been easy. I am not saying you have been rude, please do not take offence.

  252. Jemma

    @Maude:

    SSM, I hope you’re truly proud of the scum that’s crawled out of the woodwork here.

    What scum? I see women, men and those who actually have been raped uniting. Uniting to stop the “all men are rapists” trend that has exploded in the last few years.

    Men who actually believe the only “real rape” is where both victim and perpetrator are equally attractive

    And where pray-tell did you come to this conclusion as fact? Are you unable to understand sarcasim? Are you one of these women who get into a foamy rage when a man holds a door open?

    and rapist uses a weapon or physical strength to restrain the victim. I feel sorry for your children.

    Yes, that is rape. So is drugging a drink or in some way making the victim unable to escape or defend themselves from having sex forced on them…as has been pointed out in these comments. You sound like my professor. Do you scream RAPE if a man accidentally brushes against you? Says hello? Smiles at you? That’s not rape. Thats your disturbed and warped thinking.

    I feel sorry for your children, certainly any girls you have, if your outlook is that all men are dangerous. How extremely mentally damaging it is for you to have your daughter come to you one day and say “uck, this guy hit on me yesterday…it was so gross.” And you react by telling your daughter she experienced rape? Learn what real rape is. Stop minimizing the true horror it is, the lifetime impact it has, what rape actually is.

    Want to “rage against the men” fine, go and meet with your friends and tell horror stories about the guy that held the door open, or the one that said “have a nice day” tell all your friends you were raped because some guy pinched your butt. And when someone is actually raped…remember that meeting you had with your friends, remember the garbage you spread and remebmber…KNOW that it is YOUR FAULT that real reports of rape are not taken seriously.

    Your fault.

  253. Modern Drummer

    My father was falsely accused of sexual assault. About a year after the false accusation both the mother and the daughter confessed to making it up and apologized, but much of the damage had already been done and was irreparable.

  254. Hannah

    Jemma,

    I am sorry to hear about what happened to you. Thank you for sharing so candidly. You have much truth and wisdom and I admire your courage!

    I am especially pleased to hear that you don’t hate men.

    This world is Satan’s kingdom, it is he that is seeking to destroy us.
    Many people end up blaming God for the suffering in this world but they are blaming the wrong guy.
    God is not the enemy.
    Men are not the enemy.
    The devil is the enemy.
    He has lost the battle but he’ll drag as many people with him as he can-
    don’t ever forget that!

    May God bless and keep you Jemma – you are a brave and admirable young woman.

    x Hannah

  255. Ton

    At one point not to long ago down here in the South, rape was a capital offense, but it had to be actually violent physical rape. When they watered down the definition of rape, they had to water down the sentence. Shame really. not that the gallows restores a broken girl, but it keeps down on repeat offenders

    I’m all for going back to the older standard and older punishment, however we no longer live in such a place or time

    My heart does go out to.actual rape victims. My father drilled into me, that my strength, speed, aggression, pain tolerance etc were all gifts from God to stand for those who are weaker. I am a man who believes in justice and vengeance but there will be none of either for a long time, We don’t live in that kind of world now. If we ever did, but what there was of it was killed by progressive movements like feminism and by physical weak men who prefer words and laws

  256. Pingback: Men in the Shadow of Assault « stagedreality

  257. RichardP

    I think it is natural for college-aged boys and girls to want to be perceived as the men and women they are becoming, rather than as the boys and girls they used to be. But how can a college girl be given evidence that she’s being perceived as a woman by college boys – without the boys putting themselves at risk for being charged with sexual assault? Everybodies personal boundaries should be respected, and a simple “no” should be sufficient to stop any undesired attention, no matter what form that attention takes. But, how far out into the public space should a woman’s personal boundaries be allowed to expand? And aren’t the college girls/women being put into a horrific bind – desiring that the boys show her they perceive her as a woman, yet being told that these manifistations mut be labled as sexual harrasement at best, rape at worst?

  258. Farm Boy

    Plus universities find men “guilty” if there’s 50.000000000000% i

    You sir, are incorrect about that. It is 50.0000000000001%

  259. Farm Boy

    Men who actually believe the only “real rape” is where both victim and perpetrator are equally attractive, and rapist uses a weapon or physical strength to restrain the victim

    Is that you, Whoopi?

  260. Farm Boy

    This legal edifice is basically a tool to weed out betas and counterfeit alphas

    Part of the sexual harassment standard definition is “unwanted attention”. Now go
    forth and put it to good use.

  261. Farm Boy

    What is it that women want to see happen?

    Do women plan, or do they just operate on impulse?

  262. Farm Boy

    Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the realities of nonconsensual sex by volunteering as a rape advocate

    Where does one find such a vocation, the Red Army?

  263. Deep Strength

    Plus universities find men “guilty” if there’s 50.000000000000% i

    You sir, are incorrect about that. It is 50.0000000000001%

    Yeah, I typoed. Supposed to be 50.00000000000001%. But in reality it’s probably even worse than that.

  264. Res Ipsa Loquitor

    You have no idea how harmful this is to women who have actually experienced the horrific trauma of sexual assault and/rape. To read these misinformed (however well-intentioned, or so I hope) musings and equally ignorant comments truly saddens me. Please further educate yourself — not by reading “Christian blogs” written by women who have no actual experience or first-hand knowledge in the psychology of sexual assault — but *truly* educate yourself on the matter. Read a study, volunteer, speak with a trained specialist who has devoted his or her life to helping victims — anything. I am sincerely horrified by what I’m reading. Please think twice before you contribute such poisonous propaganda. As a victim, that is all I can ask. Please. Thank you and God bless.

  265. FuzzieWuzzie

    Farm Boy,
    Bears do not particpate in “rape culture’. Girl bears have options if they’re not interested.

    P.S. I caught that “Red Army” inference. I’d answer, but our guests would be horrified with historical truth.

  266. ANorthernObserver

    @Res Ipsa Loquitor – it would help if you were more specific about the issue you see instead of this fuzzy complaint you’ve made. I really have no idea what you’re talking about – particularly when there’s a rape survivor posting here who finds the material is perfectly appropriate.

  267. Farm Boy

    In the feminist Abilenian utopia, there will be no need for the police or courts. Feminists will be the police and courts

    Will they eat donuts and get fat?

  268. Pingback: Saturday News Links: June 29, 2013

  269. Pingback: Why are we pedestalizing “red pill” women? | Sunshine Mary

  270. Stingray

    I know this thread is old and I am sorry I am late to it. Jemma, if you are still reading this, God Bless you for your courage. It has brought me to tears. That class may still be teaching horrible things, but everyone in that room will remember what you bravely stood up for that day. And they will remember what you wrote here. Thank you for it.

  271. Pingback: Happy first blogiversary to me: a retrospective. | Sunshine Mary

  272. Pingback: Their misogyny excites every feminine cell in her body. | Sunshine Mary

  273. Pingback: Schism | Alpha Is Assumed

  274. Pingback: Stuff feminists say: all non-consensual touching is sexual assault. | Sunshine Mary

  275. Pingback: Stuff feminists say: kindergarten boys who act like jerks are guilty of sexual assault. | Sunshine Mary

  276. Pingback: Fixing rape culture in three easy steps. | Sunshine Mary

  277. Lola

    As a Christian, it makes me feel very sad to read your post, especially considering that non-Christians might read this and consider your views to be legitimate beliefs of the church on this topic.

  278. Pingback: Why do feminists tend to be emotionally volatile, obsessive, violent, and hysterical? | Sunshine Mary

  279. Pingback: Pie crust and politics (domesticity in a post-feminist world, Thanksgiving edition). | Sunshine Mary

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s