The stabilizing influence of masculine dominance on women’s lives.

A guest post by The Shadowed Knight

Man’s dominance in most areas has been reduced in modern society, both socially and legally.  Women need leadership in a relationship, but the kind of man who can provide that is in short supply. Their need for safety and security is tied to dominant, masculine men, and these traits are discouraged in this society. Since sexual attraction is so influenced by power in men, women are having intercourse less often. This situation is compounded by the rising age of marriage and the prevalence of divorce. In short, sex and dominance go hand in hand; women need them both, but they are not getting them. The result is unhealthy women leading unhappy lives.

Sex is not an immediate need in the manner of food or water. The need for sex is like the need for shelter; not having it will not kill you, but it will put you at risk. Life is a lot better with sex than without.   Having sex helps ease pain and aids in achieving the proper amount of sleep. Hormones are released during and after the sexual act. Other chemicals and processes occur that repair and renew the body, as well as working to retard aging. Lack of sex has been linked to increased risk of cancer, vulnerability to mental disorders, exposure to disease because of a weakened immune system, and other ill effects.

While many factors contribute to the positive results from sexual activity, it seems to be primarily a function of semen. Specifically, it is a matter of its absorption through the vaginal wall during intercourse and after ejaculation. Semen contains a cocktail of neurotransmitters, hormones, and other chemicals. A few of the components include dopamine, testosterone, serotonin, and interestingly, a pair of sex hormones found in women that help induce ovulation. Women need this chemical infusion to help properly regulate their physiologies and psychologies, and birth control that blocks semen results in unhappy, unhealthy women when compared to those who do not use a barrier.

From this, I draw the conclusion that sex is a real need, mentally, physically, and emotionally. It is important for women’s health that they have regular access to sex to gain its benefits. It is obviously incumbent upon men to provide this, which is why the other half of the socio-sexual dynamic is as vital.

Dominance in men is the strongest sexual arousal cue for women. Violence and aggression, the most straightforward expressions of that dominance, are intensely attractive to women, even when directed towards them. How better to demonstrate the will to rule than to express it upon even those close to you? That is what women want; the attention of a powerful man. The phenomenon of the abuse victims returning to the abuser stems from this.

Rape fantasies are one of the most, if not the most predominant sexual fantasy among women. Despite the taboo nature of this particular desire, more than half of women have such fantasies. During one study, when asked whether or not they had fantasies about a man overpowering them, fifty two percent admitted that they had. The actual pervasiveness of these fantasies is suspected to be higher, especially given the tendency towards deceit that women have when discussing their sexuality.

Eroticized rape fantasies have many common themes. The man is described as handsome, powerful, and forceful. Seduction and romance are sometimes involved in his treatment of the woman. He ignores any protests or resistance, unable to control himself, her beauty and sexuality overwhelming his senses. Once intercourse begins, she quickly ceases to fight, instead becoming a willing, even enthusiastic, participant. The entire experience changes to a pleasant one until it culminates with her achieving orgasm. Compare this to aversive rape fantasies, where the man is described as ugly, weak, and creepy, and which are marked by prominent feelings of pain, fear, and humiliation.

Here, I conclude that masculine dominance is desirable to women, even if they make quite a show of saying otherwise. This raises an obvious problem. Men have been stripped of their power by the law and the culture over the past hundred years, to the point that they are second to women in almost every sense. Preferences for jobs, benefits, programs, and legal protection all go to women. Any man trying to exercise his power will be beset on one side by a legal system that favors women, run and staffed by feminized lawyers, directed and administered by politicians answerable to women for their votes, and on the other, by a feminized culture that shames him and businesses that depend on women consuming their products. Women have created a system which creates men who are submissive to them. Women hold the power. They are, however, miserable because of this.

By taking masculine power for themselves, they have made men powerless, yet women desperately want and need the dominant men whose power they have claimed as their own. Women’s happiness has fallen as their authority over their own lives has risen. By tearing down men, they are unable to obtain their desires. They fill the emptiness with work while spending their time searching for some way to fulfill themselves. The most obvious are dominance play and erotica. Women are relegated to living vicariously through fictional characters and bargaining for that which they have denied themselves.

The bondage and dominance subculture first began to form around the turn of the twentieth century. It grew over the subsequent years up to the modern day, where it is known and accepted, or at the least, tolerated by the culture as a whole. The premise is at its core, consensual rape, abuse, and slavery. Violence and power imbalances are its hallmarks, allowing women to submit to men in order to satisfy their repressed natural desire for a dominant man. It becomes a caricature of the natural order in attempting to adapt to and operate within the confines of the society, but the intent is clear.

Though some women are masochistic, for the most part the predilection reveals itself in enjoyment of spanking, hair pulling, being held or restrained, and obeying commands. Mild physical discomfort and control, and mental and physical subjugation and subservience become erotically charged and desirable.  Consider the types of contact between men and women that are considered intimate and erotic: hugging, wrapping an arm around the waist, holding and moving the hips, and most of all, touching, kissing, or grasping the neck; all are very dominant positions. The more power or control the man has in a position or action, the more vulnerable the woman is, and the more it is considered to be sexual and arousing.

Erotica has been described as emotional pornography, and that is an accurate description. Without a dominant man to whom she can submit herself, some women turn to the pages of a novel. Inside a book she can imagine herself as the heroine and the object of desire for a strong, powerful, virile man. The real world does its best to crush and neuter those kinds of men, so she retreats to the written world for solace. It serves the same purpose as visual pornography; it attempts to satisfy an unmet need but ultimately fails. Erotica is an empty promise that smooths the surface and leaves the inside as unsteady as it ever was.

The truth is, women need a dominant man present in their lives: her father as a little girl, and then, as she becomes a woman, her husband. Alone, she has a deep seated fear and insecurity, longing for a man of her own, one who will protect her and provide for her needs. Once she becomes sexually mature, she begins to need sex, as well, and thus it would be best to marry young, and to a dominant man willing to care for her. Women denied either sex or submission suffer from the lack.  It is no surprise that the sex with a need for external sources of strength and stability would be anxious and miserable when those qualities are nowhere to be found.

Besides the issues of happiness raised earlier, how are women suffering? More than a quarter of women in America are on some kind of prescription psychiatric medication. Women are twice as likely to be depressed, three times as likely to suffer borderline personality disorder, and women have a higher rate of mental illness in general. They are more vulnerable to a host of issues, and their needs going unfulfilled is not helping.

Putting the sex already prone to mental disorders under even more stress and removing the stabilizing influence of masculine dominance from women’s lives has not been a wise plan. It becomes even more unwise when one considers that they are responsible for bringing forth the next generation The impact has been minor so far, and it is still devastating. The implications for the future are grim  How long can a society do such unconscionable damage to the most vital members of society?  When will this reality become too much to hide, and what is going to happen in the meantime?  

 

351 thoughts on “The stabilizing influence of masculine dominance on women’s lives.

  1. Ton

    The point behind being physically, socially and sexually dominate is not merely to have your way in life but to bring order and stability to the world around you, which benefits everyone. Such ordering is a major factor in long term bdsm relationships and the girls thrive under it ( when bdsm isn’t an excuse to be an abusive asshole)

    I know women do better under my care and it has been remarks on several times. Probably the main reason families aren’t overtly upset about their daughter dating someone significantly older.

  2. Austin

    Back when I was dating I had several women tell me about their rape fantasies and they were are all nearly identicle to the example in the OP.
    As a man, I much prefer dominating sex. It’s a more natural and enjoyable experience when I express control over the situation. I don’t have to think about what my wife wants, is she comfortable, are her legs tired, blah, blah. I take her how I want her and when you do that with passion typically what happens is her desires follow.
    It works wonders for the hamster as well.

  3. freebird

    Since the law is not changing,vibrating the prostate provides the relief a woman would have taken care of
    (in exchange for being care-for)

    Since the contract has been fraudulently broken,the vibrator is now man’s best friend as well as women’s.

    Let them eat cake.

    Thanks for the logic,will mark the calender.
    Hah!

  4. earl

    Great write up. My father told me the most important thing to a woman is stability…however he never said being dominate is what led to this.

    “Putting the sex already prone to mental disorders under even more stress and removing the stabilizing influence of masculine dominance from women’s lives has not been a wise plan.”

    Depends on who was doing the planning. The way big pharma, the government, the judicial system, and the media all works together…I’d say it’s a great plan to make everyone slaves.

  5. Höllenhund

    The bottom line is that nobody can have it both ways. Either you build a society where women’s personal autonomy and opportunities are maximized at the workplace and everywhere else, or you build a society populated by enough dominant men. You cannot do both.

  6. Farm Boy

    Let them eat cake.

    That will make them fatter, and more unhappy. What is a woman to do?

  7. Farm Boy

    You cannot do both

    One can try, and by the standards of millenials, that is good enough.

  8. Feminist Hater

    If the answer to your problem is dominant men then how about stop writing articles about women and start focusing on men totally and completely. This rambling about what women require and how it is ‘incumbent’ on men to provide it, is futile. Your focus is on women’s needs and that just breeds more focus on women. Which leaves less time for men and less energy and focus for creating dominant males.

  9. S.C.O.R.C.H.™ (@_Scorch_)

    The bottom line is that nobody can have it both ways.

    Exactly this, and this kind of thinking, that you can have it both ways, has become the bane of Western thinking. That you can somehow go East and West at the same time and if you even say out loud that you can’t, you must be an _____ist and guilty of ______ism.

    As far as I’m concerned, I hope the lives these stupid women have built for themselves blow up in their faces so hard it leaves permanent puke stains, so when they look in the mirror, they’ll never forget that they got what they wanted, now they don’t want what they got.

  10. Hipster Racist

    When the BDSM classic Story of O was authored anonymously in 1952 there was a debate in literary circles if it was written by a man or a woman. Most seemed to think that a man wrote it, because it was “demeaning towards women” but of course – ONLY a woman could have written such a book. Such things would never enter a man’s mind.

    Aside from scientific birth control, imo the number one reason why men have lost their dominance, thus women are unhappy, is because we allowed gender integration. Just about every institution in American society includes both sexes and are almost always trying to get a 50/50 ratio. It’s just this unquestioned good according to the current regime.

    Sex integration just feminizes men and masculinizes women and both are unhappy.

    Hope you don’t mind me plugging my article from a few months ago on this topic:

    Female Submission and its Enemies

  11. Hipster Racist

    @lgrobins

    Please don’t let the “bondage community” define people that engage in the range of “BDSM-like behaviors.” The “bondage community” is not representative of those behaviors, any more than, say, the Moonie cult is representative of religious people.

    The fact that it’s a “community” should be tip off number one. It’s a “community” defined around promiscuity and exhibitionism, and the minority of sub men and domme women, not even “BDSM-ish behavior” itself.

    So what happens is some young woman reads 50 Shades of Grey, get turned on by the dominance submission themes, and finds her way into the “bondage community” where feminists will try to restrict her submission to sexual things only and plenty of truly abusive men will try to harm her.

    It’s like a battle for the subs. Only half jokingly, I suggest Christian men looking for submissive wives would do well to intercept those women before the “bondage community” gets their hands on them. I don’t think there’s really much in BDSM itself that a Christian would object to, in the context of a traditional, monogamous marriage. Certainly plenty of Christian girls like to be spanked. The best somewhat mainstream film about BDSM is Secretary (2002) which, like any typical romance, ends with the couple getting married. I’d suggest Christian men watch it, it’s R rated, there’s some sex but by today’s standard it’s very tame. It was the spanking scene, where they are fully clothed, that was controversial.

  12. Christina

    Do you have any links on the research concerning the benefits of presence of semen inside the vagina?

    Without getting overtly TMI… we are NFP-ers because BC just does weird things to me and condoms give me UTI. I also suffer from PMDD. My husband does the Onan-Method (Genesis 38:9) which has of late been frustrating to me, so we have compromised. We go traditional when I’m PMS-ing… Where I displayed absolutely no negative effects from this month.

    So.. I’m very curious about the veracity of your statements in the hormones produced from the presence of semen creating a stabilizing effect.

    I have long acknowledged and embraced the idea that dominant men have a psychological stabilizing effect on women who wax and wane, ebb and flow. Our hormones make it quite clear that women are biologically not as stable as men are and that a dominant male could be beneficial to a woman in that regard. Oddly, I was just reflecting on that this morning. But the ACTUAL physiological benefits? Had no idea.

  13. lgrobins

    Secretary is good. What I like about it is how he was able to redirect her destructive behavior of “cutting” and turn it into a positive, through submission to him. All he had to do was say “don’t cut anymore” and she got it. What probably took months for the hospital to address was resolved with just his one firm statement. Her character is actually a good example of what can happen to women when they don’t have dominance in their life…she became mentally unstable, was in a hospital even for her cutting, and then she meets the dominant man and healing begins. She has found her place of belonging and no longer has the need to cut.

  14. earl

    “By the way, good luck trying to convince women to let men ejaculate into them. You’ll need it.”

    That’s part of the dominance problem we have today. Most women don’t want any part of a man in them…their seed, their authority, nothing. Women lost respect for men the minute they got reproductive choice through birth control. Men didn’t respect their seed…women don’t respect men.

    It’s better to focus on putting your energy into a mission…and have women way down the list. A mission is not as good looking or smells as good as a woman…but you’ll get rewards.

  15. Christina

    Thank you, Dr. Faust!!! I’m so sending those articles to the hubby =p He can be my own personal anti-depressant!

    [ssm: I will tell you from personal experience that the change is remarkable. We used BCP and then did pull and pray for a number of years. I had mild dysphoria during that entire time frame, gained weight, and had a lower sex drive. Getting off all forms of birth control made me happy, healthy, and horny. It also made me pregnant. However, if you simply must refrain from pregnancy, NFP is the way too go; just avoid intercourse two days before and two days after ovulation.]

  16. earl

    “Thank you, Dr. Faust!!! I’m so sending those articles to the hubby =p He can be my own personal anti-depressant!”

    Like comedian Christopher Titus said and I’ve taken to heart…

    “Instead of going on anti-depressants…I chose to be an anti-depressant. And you can take me with alcohol.”

  17. Dr. Faust

    The submissive is defined by uncertainty not stupidity or weakness as some want to think. Once woman is disconnected from man her need for certainty does not vanish. She then supplants male leadership for social leadership. Instead of her fathers and husband guiding her through love she now follows the edicts of her teachers and ultimately lesbian feminists who have THEIR best interests in mind, not hers. That’s where we find ourselves today.

    Women are confident, strong, and empowered so long as they’re TOLD constantly that they’re empowered. They need act, dress, and pursue things in a certain way. Not surprisingly, those things are careers in a corporate environment and frivolous spending on material goods in an endless attempt to fulfill their spirit. The bottom line is the bottom line. Like Keynesian stimulus, the economy swells because of this but only initially. We are now entering the phase where the bubble begins to slow and then bursts.

    By reducing everyone to an id based ideology and an id based culture their future time orientation is diminished. Then they act out of neoteny, purchasing and acting impulsively without thought of consequences. For most of women’s poor choices, there are no direct consequences. Again, this fuels tax revenue. The state and the rich elite prosper but no one else.

    I’ve spent some time in the BDSM community and believe I have a better understanding of it then most do. Going by the numbers online, the biggest group is submissive men not submissive women. The smallest group is dominant women. Pouring through fetlife’s profiles you quickly notice that most of the dominant women are pro-dommes, female prostitutes wielding whips and wearing leather. It’s been estimated that there are 1:1000 submissive men for every dominant woman.

    Another observation is that most of the women on that site are fat. Not just overweight but obese. Most are submissive which leads me to believe that better looking women are more likely to find the type of dominance they seek without resorting to the internet or to BDSM in general. There is also a high prevalence of mental illness and instability from EVERYONE in BDSM. Too much to be coincidental.

    That’s all for now. If you have questions on the “scene” ask them as I probably have some answers.

  18. Escoffier

    “Another observation is that most of the women on this site are fat. Not just overweight but obese.”

    oooooookaaaaaaaay.

    [ssm: I was confused by Dr. Faust's original comment. Were you, too? I thought he meant the women on MY site are fat, which is actually not the case. We are a surprisingly svelte group. I changed the words "this site" to the words "that site" in his comment when I realized that he was talking about FetLife and not my blog.]

  19. Dr. Faust

    Also, notice how nuns and lesbians are known for being miserable people. Lack of semen.

    I think men do better with celibacy than women do.

  20. earl

    “Also, notice how nuns and lesbians are known for being miserable people. Lack of semen.”

    I thought nuns received the body of Christ. Surely that includes his semen.

  21. Farm Boy

    I think men do better with celibacy than women do

    Men can accomplish great things in the world.

    Women are best at making babies and being mothers.

  22. Ton

    Women don’t want you to _____ in them…. Thats …. Not what I have experienced. Same for submissive women only wanting to submit during sex. For some that is true mostly I would have to say… Not so much. Most are in a rush to get back from work and escape into the comfort of their dominate

  23. earl

    “Women don’t want you to _____ in them…. Thats …. Not what I have experienced.”

    It isn’t what I’ve experienced either…but you have to get through a lot of their rationalizations about them not wanting you to.

    It’s to the point you have to have a brain made out of titanium to withstand their hurricane forced winds.

  24. Martel

    @ Farm Boy: I read that article last night. I love it when women say “I’m an independent woman who depends on taxpayer money to maintain my independence.”

    For some people it’s really hard to understand that “independent” and “dependent” are opposites.

    [ssm: Yep. I have an acquaintance who was once moaning to me about the trials of being a single mother because she "had to do everything for herself." This is a woman whose ex-husband has their kids with 50% joint custody and the baby daddy of her other kid is also involved in his child's life. She's one welfare and receives WIC and her parents own a rental property that they let her live in for free. I watch her kids for her all the time for free, too. Her kids have learned that if they want food and clean clothes, they have to make that happen themselves. She does literally nothing for herself, yet she still plays that "Oh, poor pitiful me, doin' in all on my own as a single mama!" card. Glen Stanton would no doubt praise her.]

  25. theshadowedknight

    Höllenhund, I do not support women’s personal autonomy being maximized. We have seen the disaster that causes. Women are not independent, and treating them as if they are is madness. If men are to lead, women must be obliged to follow, otherwise it is asking and cajoling, not leading. No thanks. The obliged to have sex line was a bit of a laugh, “Gentlemen, we are going to be to suffer through the terrible burden of having sex with women. Yes, I know it is tough, but we can make it.”

    FH, it is not hard to find information in the sphere on how to improve yourself. This is theory, and advocacy, not self help. Not only that, it is indeed on you to improve, not me. You have to take charge of yourself. Writing about men is not going to make them dominant. This is not voodoo authoring.

    Lgrobins, I noticed that as well. The rise and jumps in prominence seemed to coincide with second and third wave feminism in this century. I could not find anything solid on that, so I left it out. And yeah, about the community and lifestyle… Those are some odd people. I use them as data, but they are without a doubt, some strange people, and they have the worst concentration of feminists and white knights.

    The Shadowed Knight

  26. earl

    “An independent woman on welfare, she was. With a dominant enough man, she is.”

    Well I’m glad her life style of poor choices, terrible mate selection, and the ability to get by on my tax dollars ended up with a happy ending where she got all she wanted.

    And I am going to go man-basher here…anything she does to bring hellfire to the guy she married…he deserves.

  27. Ton

    Sorry Earl, I’m not tracking what you’re saying

    I think its pretty clear but I am going to say it any way, a man must be physically dominate, perhaps over the top so, to compensate for the societal changes which have reduced many mens economic and soical dominance

  28. Cail Corishev

    Also, notice how nuns and lesbians are known for being miserable people. Lack of semen.

    Let’s not get carried away. Modernist, pantsuit-wearing nuns who spend most of their time complaining about the male-only priesthood and trying to finesse the Church’s position on “reproductive health” often do seem miserable. But traditional, obedient, habit-wearing nuns are plenty happy, and glow like new brides when they take their vows. Their orders are seeing a resurgence in numbers, too. Check out the video below for a great example.

    There is a known physiological effect from semen, but it’s clearly not required for a woman to be happy. When a married woman denies her husband sex or rejects his seed via contraception (whether the semen is blocked or not), I suspect the psychological effect of that abnormality is much greater — on both of them. Regardless of the strength of each effect, it seems safe to say that, for a marriage to be as healthy as possible for the long term, sex needs to be frequent and of the potentially fertile variety.

  29. Cail Corishev

    Incidentally, I picked out that video to show there are joyful nuns, but it actually speaks pretty directly to the topic here. Note how she talks about the joy of being united to Christ, and how fulfilling it is when He gives Himself to her every day in the Eucharist. Yeah, it’s not hard to see the parallel there with a husband giving himself to his wife in the marital act, and how she can only be fulfilled if she accepts him completely. All that “as the Church is the bride of Christ, so shall ye…” stuff isn’t just poetry; it’s how it’s really supposed to work.

    [ssm: Great video, thanks for posting that!]

  30. earl

    “Sorry Earl, I’m not tracking what you’re saying”

    A lot of times when I display dominance or leadership to women…I get the third degree about it first. But if I stick to it they eventually submit.

    I think it is even more important to be mentally dominate. That is what is constantly being attacked.

  31. donalgraeme

    A good guest post TSK. If only it wasn’t so that what women think they want they shouldn’t have, and what women need they think they don’t want. Maddening.

    @ Dr. Faust

    I’m pretty sure I’ve argued that at least once her on SSM’s blog. For some it need not be permanent, they may only need a little while (months or a year or two) away from the world to try and put their soul back together. But some are clearly so damaged a “regular” life as a married woman is not possible anymore.

  32. MargeryM

    “Another observation is that most of the women on this site are fat. Not just overweight but obese.”

    And not just obese but grossly obese. I used a few images of women who had stomaches that fell to their thighs from FetLife to stop myself from binging before. Another thing I noted about these women was that they almost always have taken pictures in disgustingly filthy rooms.

  33. Feminist Hater

    FH, it is not hard to find information in the sphere on how to improve yourself. This is theory, and advocacy, not self help. Not only that, it is indeed on you to improve, not me. You have to take charge of yourself. Writing about men is not going to make them dominant. This is not voodoo authoring.

    Yea, not what I said at all. I never said you must improve men by writing on men. I said that if you want dominant men, you need to take the focus off of what women want and back to what men want. If you want to improve men, focus needs to return to men. Women can want sexy all they want. They can want money, they can want dominance. They can want dominance vs submission till they are blue in the face. They can want all of these things but unless everyone starts putting effort into what men need to succeed, what men need to thrive and what men need to simply be men, it ain’t going to work. That is not voodoo authoring, it’s just common sense. What you write about is voodoo authoring, precisely because you think it has some value when it doesn’t even correctly focus on the point at hand. Your article was about how women are unhappy that men and not dominant, that the state has taken male power away, you explain that women just need men to somehow magically create this dominance and sexy sexness, that it is incumbent upon men to provide it, but yet fail to recognise that if it falls on men to create it, you damn well better freaking provide them with the tools to do so. Either that, or get out of their way. Either provide the tools, or nothing gets better…

    Anyway, I have taken control of my life. If you’re not about helping men seize their potential and helping them realise their God given gift of masculinity, then how the hell do you think they are ever going to be dominant? It takes time, effort and work from parents to teachers to create dominant men.

    How do you expect men to just do these things when no one gives a crap about what they need? Are you for real or are you just here to play?

  34. MargeryM

    BDSM is viewed as a “safe” and acceptable way to “play” submissive. I first started flirting with submissiveness through BDSM because plain ol’ wifely submission was just so *backwards* and *wrong*, but doing it for sexual gratification? That’s perfectly acceptable! It didn’t take long before playing wasn’t enough for us. It seemed forced like we had to be careful lest we *actually* have an unequal dynamic on our hands. From what I have seen in the BDSM community (and I have never been big in the community but still a part of it) many women have turned to it to play out their deepest needs while excusing them away as a ‘kink’. After a while that started to get to me. Is this really a kink? Because I don’t think so. That led to all sorts of meltdowns among friends, my asking that question. These same friends were known to say things like “I’m worried about a woman I know. She submits to her husband but not in the sexual way” *gasps* “Which would be fine but this is just unhealthy!” *nods* Still if you go to a place like FetLife you will see that some people are embracing it outside of being kink or play. There are anti-feminist groups, male-led household groups, male superiority groups, and the like. Of course they are heavily trolled and the feminists have their own answer to them in group form but they are there and they are growing in number.

    I’m starting to think of BDSM as a gateway drug of sorts. It’s a “safe space” to experiment and once you are there you learn a thing or two about human nature and your own nature and realize it’s really not as horrid as you have been told.

    [ssm: I am not so sure that Christians ought to be involved in fetish communities. In fact, I actually believe they ought not to be. Having a DOM/sub sexual dynamic in a marriage is fine, but I don't think being in such communities is in accordance with Biblical sexual morality. As Hipster noted above, that community is quite into promiscuity and exhibitionism. Of course, for non-Christians, BDSM perhaps is a "gateway", but I really couldn't say for sure.]

  35. Dr. Faust

    FH,

    A woman can’t teach a man to be dominant. If she does teach him she’s being the dominant one.

    There is a conflict in the heart of the feminist woman. She is compelled to submit by her sexual nature which she cannot rewrite but her logical and ideological center do not align with this premise. This conflict creates suffering and madness with her. She is torn in two different directions between her lust for dominant men and her will to hold power over others.

    The hope is that one’s philosophy and ideology can change easily but what we find sexually fulfilling cannot change quite as easy. We are adaptive to a point. We can change but not everything. We can choose to live in conflict with ourselves and literally be our own worst enemy or we can embrace the aspects of ourselves in which we cannot change. End the conflict.

  36. MargeryM

    re: BDSM providing a “safe space” for men and women to try out natural gender roles- case in point, Domestic Servitude (domesticservitude[dot]blogspot[dot]com). They are essentially proud homemakers but in an socially acceptable sexually liberated sort of way.

  37. Feminist Hater

    Do you people read?? I never said a woman must teach a man to be dominant…

    I said, if you want men to be dominant, then put the effort into creating an environment that enables that and put the effort into boys to allow them to mature into dominant men. A woman need not teach a man, she can merely get out of his way and encourage him to lead.

    Since society has decided to deride men, it falls to smaller communities to operate outside of society, by spending more time and effort on creating dominant men. Instead, you’re going to spend all your time and effort on trying to convince millions upon millions of women of what they really want, when you could spend less effort on men by simply raising them correctly.

    If it’s natural for women to want dominant men, then surely by creating more and more dominant men, by wisely allocating resources and time to men, women will naturally gravitate to what it is they truly desire? Right…

  38. donalgraeme

    @ Margery

    When culture suppresses natural human urges, they will always show up in the margins of society. The male sex drive is such that there will always be a demand for prostitution, and a supply to meet that demand. Here we have the natural urge for women to submit to a man, which they try and find ways of expressing. Because our society is so thoroughly feminized, female submission to male dominance is suppressed and pushed out of generally accepted social circles. All of which leaves us with a “community” where this urge finds its way of expressing itself.

  39. van Rooinek

    There is a conflict in the heart of the feminist woman. She is compelled to submit by her sexual nature which she cannot rewrite but her logical and ideological center do not align with this premise.

    Reminds me of an incident from college — a vegetarian chick crushing on a hunter. Her ideology and her primal cravings were very much at odds. Poor thing…

  40. theshadowedknight

    FH, as I mentioned earlier, I am in favor of a system that supports masculine primacy. That means a return to a workplace dominated by men, women out of politics and the loss of the vote. That means husband takes custody of children by default, and fault divorce. That means cutting off the single mothers from welfare. That means dismantling the domestic violence machine.

    A functioning society needs men on top. That means women go on the bottom. This is a call to take back what was the place men held. I am not saying provide dominance, I am saying be dominant. The society needs to conform to the needs of men in order to provide for the needs of women. Men come first, and women follow, in the macro level of society as well as the micro level of social interaction. Men in charge makes everyone more satisfied.

    The writing is the first step, to inform men. Men need to be willing to take charge. Once they know what to do, women are going to have to fall in line.

    The Shadowed Knight

  41. Feminist Hater

    I can tell you one thing right now. Men are not taking back this crumbling society. Just ain’t going to happen. I know a lost cause when I see one.

  42. sunshinemary Post author

    Because our society is so thoroughly feminized, female submission to male dominance is suppressed and pushed out of generally accepted social circles.

    Yes! I agree with this. It’s also why people will confuse marital submission with sexual submission. There’s nothing wrong with sexual submission, of course; it’s undoubtedly clear to anyone who has read my blog for more than a few days that I’m a sexual sub (but I am not in any way, shape or form part of a fetish community, and I have never viewed any fetish sites).

    However, submission in the marital hierarchy as commanded in the Bible is a different thing. It is satisfying but not always fun, easy, or what one would prefer to do. By contrast, sexual submission (for a sub) is fun, easy, and always desired. Sexual submission gratifies one’s desires; marital submission means not gratifying one’s desires sometimes.

    {Edit: It just occurred to me that I probably shouldn’t refer to myself as a sexual sub since it seems like that is an actual term from the BDSM community. I don’t know what that definition entails. Are we talking humiliation? I don’t find humiliation arousing at all. I would never want my husband to spit on me or anything like that. That’s not for me at all; I also don’t find anything arousing about the idea of a sex “community”. Yucky! HHG and I are a sex community unto ourselves, a perfect community of two with no room for any joiners. So what to call women – and to be honest, it’s got to be a pretty big majority – who enjoy being bossed about in the bedroom, with the husband in control and directing the activity, perhaps involving mild consensual aggression like hair-pulling or a swat on the rump?}

  43. sunshinemary Post author

    I probably should have changed my gravatar before commenting on this particular thread. People are going to think I’m some kind of kinkbot.

  44. Anonymoose

    The Shadowed Knight, excellent article!

    FH, this article IS focused on creating dominant men.

    The men who are (or have the potential to be) dominant, but who are also the builders of civilization, who have a long term view, who care about the well-being of others (including women), are the ones who need this information because they are the most susceptible to anti-masculine lies.

    Destroyers don’t care, but when creators are told, by everyone and everything, that what they are doing is counterproductive and even harmful, they stop and think.

    But when they cannot reconcile the conflicts between their instincts and what their parents, pastors, teachers, peers (male and female, but especially female), society, media …, are claiming with such certainty, and not realizing that all of these claims are intentional bullshit, they may just stop.

  45. Miserman

    I can tell you one thing right now. Men are not taking back this crumbling society. Just ain’t going to happen. I know a lost cause when I see one.

    I’m starting to lose my optimism about all of this. I had hoped to main a stance that was neither fatalistic or narcissistic, but I am losing that a little each day. I think some Jack Daniels and Nickelback will set my mood tonight.

  46. theshadowedknight

    Regarding BDSM

    Margery, it amuses me and saddens me to see the furious rationalizations to avoid men having power. Especially when from what I have seen and read, the women in that type of relationship is deliriously happy to submit and serve. The feelings of love and safety are probably the first time she has felt truly secure. The feminist harpies have a lot for which to answer.

    SSM, I think that being part of the lifestyle common to BDSM is unsuitable for Christians, but they have a lot to teach. One must not join in the perversion to learn. The Internet is perfect for this, as you can ask questions and voice concerns without the weirdness spilling over. You do not have to have sex in public or to many people to be engaged in BDSM style activities. The “lifestyle” is usually the refuge of the perverse and disturbed, anyway. Not much appeal for healthy people.

    Donal, exactly right. Submission is normal, but because of the twisted social atmosphere, people have to hide it to survive. It then becomes the purview of the perverse, degenerate, and insane. When submission is disgusting, only the disgusting will submit. If the society stopped crushing out legitimate expression, it would not be so warped. Thank you, by the way. Glad this was well received.

    The Shadowed Knight

  47. alcestiseshtemoa

    I probably should have changed my gravatar before commenting on this particular thread. People are going to think I’m some kind of kinkbot.

    Are you a robot?

    Michael Fassbender played one on the sci-fi/fantasy 2012 movie Prometheus.

  48. alcestiseshtemoa

    I have a confession. Michael Fassbender was a charming and attractive male robot. I’m glad he was still alive at the end of the 2012 film Prometheus.

  49. donalgraeme

    Sunshine,

    I think the confusion is because they are tied together. Or at least, that is increasingly what it looks like. Sexual submission is cast out because people know, deep down inside, that it reveals the truth about the way that men and women are supposed to act towards another. It is made into “kink” out of necessity, at least, the necessity of those committed to upsetting the natural order.

  50. Bob Wallace

    “Violence and aggression, the most straightforward expressions of that dominance, are intensely attractive to women, even when directed towards them. ”

    Must be very careful here. Women who are attracted to violent men suffer from a mental/emotional disorder known as Hybristophilia. One woman told me she was one and hated herself for it.

    As for men who are violent toward women, most are narcissists/borderlines. Some parts of the Manosphere is very confused about these disturbed men, calling them “alphas.”

  51. Dr. Faust

    Bob Wallace,

    The relationship of master to slave is always one of violence. The master assumes his role his willingness to die or kill for his power. All alpha behavior is derivative of violence. You want to put a fairy tale paint of coat on the situation where none is applicable. Hegel wrote at length of the relationship between master and slave. Eye contact, body posture, and dominance traits are all derived from the willingness to commit violence.

  52. CpC

    Sunshinemary @ 1:38 P.M.

    ‘I probably should have changed my gravatar before commenting on this particular thread. People are going to think I’m some kind of Kinkbot.”

    You’re not. Sorry, my mistake.

  53. MargeryM

    @theshadowedknight, @SSM, @donalgraeme re: BDSM and submission- I agree wholeheartedly.

    @Bob Wallace, I think it depends on how one is defining violence. In this modern world of ours anything that is masculine and aggressive earns itself a negative reputation. In my mind what is normal masculine aggression has been deemed a violent extreme (what I believe you are talking about) to the point that it’s hard to divorce the two.

    Women are attracted to masculine aggression. That shouldn’t be lumped in with Hybristophilia.

  54. Dr. Faust

    Dominant men display sublimated forms of violent behavior. This is the similar to how sports is a sublimated form of warfare. Their roots are violence but we give them positive outlets within society.

  55. Hipster Racist

    @MargeryM

    It’s amazing isn’t it? That “domestic servitude” site has women swapping their best dinner recipes and some housework tips. THAT is “kinky?” That’s an “alternative sexuality?” Well I guess in an age where “gay marriage” is totally normal, than normal marriage is a kink, it’s “alternative.”

    It’s like they are saying, “sure, it’s ok to cook for your man, but only if you’re wearing a collar with a chain attached to the stove.” Although I have to admit that would make dinner time a lot more exciting.

    In many ways it does make sense. Women are supposed to be corporate workers now, gender-neutral and interchangeable with men. Being the personal property of an “alpha” dominant man is now a privilege, it’s something unique and exciting that most women will never experience. Hence 50 Shades is a runaway best seller. I should write women’s erotica, it’s looking to be a growth industry.

    [ssm: Your first paragraph is an excellent observation.]

  56. sunshinemary Post author

    I added an edit to my comment above.

    Dr. Faust:

    Dominant men display sublimated forms of violent behavior. This is the similar to how sports is a sublimated form of warfare. Their roots are violence but we give them positive outlets within society.

    Interesting thoughts. I have just recently finished reading my girls a book about the Roman Colosseum. I didn’t know much about its origins, but it stems from a funeral tradition called the munera, in which wealthy families paid two men (or forced two slaves) to fight to the death for the entertainment of the funeral-goers and in honor of their deceased family member. Eventually, this evolved into the gladiatorial events, which were often fights unto death. Nowadays we don’t have such matches, but we have things like boxing and wrestling (and violent movies) to satisfy those urges.

  57. theshadowedknight

    Bob, I am aware of your dislike of the Alpha definition, as is everyone else where you post. I am not interested in how you feel about how human sexuality works. Reality shows you to be wrong. Degree, not kind, is the proper approach to feminine desire for violence. Even the calmest, most gentle woman still has those feelings to some extent.

    Take a look at the types of holds considered erotic. All are vulnerable positions in which to be. As a man, that says combat positioning. To a woman, it says showing his love. If a man grabs another man’s neck, he is going to get hit. If he does it to a woman, she swoons into his arms.

    Look at the popularity of military and police. A job that involves violence, and women are all over them. Saying that attraction to violence is a mental disorder is absurd. Besides, look at all the other traits they pathologize. Psychology is not the same as chemistry, or math. It is a subjective discipline.

    The Shadowed Knight

  58. MargeryM

    @SSM re: the definition of “sub” within BDSM:

    It’s pretty broad. Some are into pain, some not. Some are into humiliation, some not. It’s just used to describe the power dynamic. Everything else is an add-on.

  59. theshadowedknight

    SSM, Margery is correct. A sub, or submissive, is the submissive partner. Whatever the relationship entails is between the two of them. So you are a sub, and HHG is your Dom. Beyond that, you get into the weirder aspects, so it is safe to just say sub.

    The Shadowed Knight

  60. Anonymoose

    Bob Wallace is trying to derail the intent of this article, by attaching contrary subconscious associations to ideas already internalized by readers from the OP and the subsequent comments.

    Bob, if you want to be constructive, then you need to state everything clearly and completely and comprehensively, starting with your context, so that readers will have a limiting frame of reference. Or you can just STFU.

  61. Dr. Faust

    Generally there is a difference between a sub and someone who is into it as a lifestyle. LIfestyle subs are called slaves often enough. One of the most common “kinks” for women on fetlife is the 1950s household. That gives a pretty clear picture of what they want.

  62. donalgraeme

    Sunshine, reading that bit about Roman history was interesting. I don’t recall learning about the origins of Roman gladiatorial contests before, and I find it interesting how it is tied to funerals. They are usually highly ritualistic in most cultures, and these rituals often served to meet various needs. Interesting that the Romans sought to accompany a ceremony involving death with yet further death. Not entirely dissimilar to the Egyptians I suppose.

    Moving to something somewhat more related to this topic, are you familiar with how Greek theater developed?

  63. Feminist Hater

    Bob Wallace is trying to derail the intent of this article, by attaching contrary subconscious associations to ideas already internalized by readers from the OP and the subsequent comments.

    Is that a long winded way of saying he disagrees with the article?

  64. Dr. Faust

    Way way way way off topic here. But does anyone know if apple cider vinegar will help remove a mole? I put some on a bandage and then applied it to the mole because I read about it on the internet. Does anyone have any experience with this?

  65. theshadowedknight

    No, FH, it means he is trying to subversively interfere with my point to push his agenda. He does not like alpha, and that is nearly every post he has made. So he goes to sabotage anything that would disagree with him. That is what he is doing; trying to break my theory by emotional infiltration.

    Disagree, complain, sure. Do it with facts and reason. Do not push an agenda if you cannot back it up.

    The Shadowed Knight

  66. Cail Corishev

    As for men who are violent toward women, most are narcissists/borderlines. Some parts of the Manosphere is very confused about these disturbed men, calling them “alphas.” — Bob Wallace

    Which parts would those be? I don’t claim to have visited every part of the manosphere, but I’ve been to many of the best-known ones over the past several years, and the only person I’ve seen define “alpha” that way is you.

  67. Edith

    How does this apply to adult daughters who are still in the home? We suspected she doesnt want to marry because she has a selfish spirit of sorts, meaning she doesnt want to be dominated. In good conscience we dont think marriage is good if she doesnt want to submit. She is outwardly obedient to her father and myself but her heart is selfish. We raised her to be a wife and mother but the last few years she has flip flopped about that. In my talks with her I think she is interested in equality of the marriage rather than obedience. My husband and I have discussed letting her go, move out but I know she will not be able to afford it. We are praying about the direction we will take. What does one do to teach dominance to their daughters, adults down to single digits. We realize we need to do something different considering how things are going right now. Any advice is appereciated.

  68. theshadowedknight

    It comes from the Dark Triad and the draw they have for women. The progression is this: Dark Triad is attractive to women > Alphas attract women > Alphas are Dark Triad personalities > Alpha is narcissistic, sociopathic/psychopathic, manipulative > Alpha is evil.

    A fair assessment, but narrow and blinded. It is more expansive than just that, but he does not include the rest. Not sure if he has a personal problem, or just too focused for his own good.

    The Shadowed Knight

  69. Christina

    I realize that what I’m about to say might sound horridly perverted, but I’ve been trying to throw this out for sometime and this is the closest the subject is going to get…

    I think that being part of the lifestyle common to BDSM is unsuitable for Christians, but they have a lot to teach. One must not join in the perversion to learn.

    My husband and I had an exchange of words on the subject of spanking one day… he spanked me, and in our customary jokingly exaggerated tit-for-tat on DV, I said “I’m going to call your mommy and tell her your abusing me.” He responded with “Careful what you call abuse.” I stopped dead in my tracks because we’d had a recent disciplinary issue with our 4 year old that day that resulted in spanking and I wanted to know if the role of spanking in discipline encourages submission in children.

    But of course, the only social science studies that exist on spanking and submission are all about BDSM. And the “science” on spanking and children is in the complete opposite direction. What gives?

  70. Feminist Hater

    thesk, what is the point of this article? That a masculine attitude stabilizes a woman’s feral hypergamy? Sure, it’s the same thing as saying a Civilisation stabilizes the violence within men. What’s the point of that though?

    I get this whole trying to understand human nature, our desires, things that we are drawn to. I really do, what I don’t get is why everyone is so caught up in trying to obtain those as if they’re life or death. I always thought the point was to understand one’s core nature and by understanding that, to disregard what is bad and mold what is good and proper. To me, the violence of man is bad, unless used properly. In the same way, the tendency of women to follow their innate hypergamy to its rotten conclusion is also bad.

    And this is where my disagreement comes in. It’s all well and dandy to keep on playing the card of ‘this is what reality is and this is what we are’ but there comes a point in time that those of us who want to build something a new get tired of the merry-go-round. Fine, this is what men and women are, but we’re called to be more. So, for all the alpha, beta dichotomy, even if it’s true, is something we as humans need to overcome.

  71. Ton

    Really get the impression FH doesn’t want to put in the work to develop a masculine frame, but honestly all you need to do is fight in MMA and sky dive for 2 years. Once you have some accomplishments to rest on, the other will follow

    “….Eye contact, body posture, and dominance traits are all derived from the willingness to commit violence.” Dr F. yep, which is why I tell men to get into the ring. Personally, I don’t see the problem with it either as most of the Old Testament big names were violent men and until relatively recently in historical it was a way of life. It is right and proper that women get tingles for violent men as it is likely such a man can keep her safe from Mongols, Huns, injuns etc etc

  72. Feminist Hater

    What is a masculine frame? I know what you mean when you say that. It’s peacocking. Unless you raise a boy to enhance his masculinity, so that the teaching becomes his guide, you’re asking a man to peacock. To display his feathers for all the women to see.

    Listen Ton, I have masculine frame. I’m no friggin whimp. However, I choose when and how I will use that, not you and certainly no woman.

    Instead of getting impressions, how about you try answer the question. You and shadowed night seem to have the ‘frame’s the MMA training, the ability to jump out a plane, yet the world is crumbling. Come on, incredible men with frames, how do you turn boys into men?

    Ya, let’s just throw them to the wolves, that’s sure to work…

  73. theshadowedknight

    FH, the point is to make the argument that contrary to the gynocentrism that defines society, the best way to make both men and woman happy is an androcentric social structure. You understand the basic nature to understand how to control and direct it. Men want to look after women. It is written in our blood, but most think feminism is the best way. It is not, and this shows why.

    Unintended consequences are a result of decisions made without understanding reality. If we want to fix it, we need to know how it is broken. Each little piece we find is one less thing that will go wrong. The more you know, the better the product. I am offering the learning that will lead to the mastery of civilization.

    By elevating men in society, we give them an incentive to produce because they can satisfy hypergamy. By outlawing divorce and letting single mothers suffer, you encourage women to reign in their hypergamy. By criminalizing adultery, you give people an incentive to take care not to put themselves in a bad situation. By executing felons you remove them from the gene pool.

    Understanding is linked to society. Once we know, we can do. Be patient, because there is much work to be done. It is a long path ahead of us.

    The Shadowed Knight

  74. Dr. Faust

    I would say a masculine frame is a consequence of other activities. Lifting weights, training in defense, hunting, building something with your hands, and spending time around other high testosterone men will help a person to develop a masculine frame.

  75. Martel

    @ FHater: The reason you’re not getting a simple answer is that there isn’t one. Each of us has ways in which we can dominate, but they’re all somewhat different. Sometimes it’s more physical, sometimes it’s more based on verbal profficiency, sometimes through money. Very few of us can be as physically dominant as Ton, and you can’t be a dominant wimp, but the way you’ll become Alpha will be slightly different than it is for everyone else.

    This article didn’t deal with that directly, but not every article can. Besides, this site is run by a woman, and as much as I like SSM, her site isn’t necessarily the best place to learn how to become a man.

    You’re never going to find somebody who can tell you exactly what to do in what order, but you can pick up bits and pieces from others who’ve done it and figure out what works for you. Believe me, I’ve wanted somebody to just tell me what to do, but once you’re an adult it doesn’t work that way. You have to do it, you have to figure it out. We can guide, and some of the guidance you find will be more pertinent than other guidance, but it’s going to be up to you to find what works for you. Yes, there are certain rules that apply to everyone, but those rules apply in as many ways as there are people. The way Ton, SK, me, and Earl would dominate a room would all be slightly different, and we’d be applying some of the same laws. Some of what Ton does would work for me, some would make me look like an idiot (and vice versa).

    Buf if that’s what you need, whatever site you go to, if the post for the day doesn’t help, go to another site. Rollo, Vox, the Spearhead, and a zillion other bloggs all have extensive archives, and there are countless new posts written every day. You’d do much better by yourself to do some exploring than to bitch about what’s here.

  76. Martel

    To use an analogy, starting a successful business helps the economy in part because it creates jobs. However, you don’t start such a business so that you can hire people, you do it to make money.

    Nevertheless, entrepreneurs DO create jobs, and there’s nothing wrong with describing how and why that’s the case, as long as you’re able to keep the benefits of starting a business in proper context.

    Likewise with an article like this: Men need to become men to lead the lives they were created to lead. That’s the reason we’re here. However, men becoming men also benefits women. This article simply describes how and why that’s the case. If every article on this site day after day were about nothing but how we need to Alpha Up for the womenz, we’d be losing focus. That’s not what TSK did with this article. He simply described yet another reason why men being manginas is bad for everybody.

    Nothing wrong with that at all.

  77. Feminist Hater

    Uhm, I think you are missing something. I have not asked for advice. I’ve read all those self-help sites. Some is helpful, some isn’t but that’s not my quibble here. Hell, I get it, none of you can help men at all. In fact, your help is basically to put men in the deep end and hope they can swim. My quibble isn’t about me. It’s about how you’re all going about it. If you want dominant men, if you want good, hard working and decent men, you have to be willing to put the effort in. If you think dominant men will make a come back because you put wimps in MMA cages, well no, it doesn’t work that way. The wimp will get his arse kicked, in the real world, he will be killed. Now, if that’s the entire purpose, well great. What you will end up with is a world full of MMA champs beating each other up. What you put in is what you get out.

    If I really wanted true advice, I would ask my father. If you asked what it is I have issue with, well, perhaps that the article itself doesn’t actually come up with a conclusion that offers any value. It’s like taking a dump and then not wiping your arse.

  78. Martel

    Maybe the article didn’t offer value to YOU, but that doesn’t make it worthless. It approaches truth from a different angle, and I did an article myself on the same topic a while back (with a different emphasis): http://alphaisassumed.wordpress.com/2013/06/06/from-hamster-to-shrew/

    I understand the need to help us develop more men, both as individuals and in the aggregate. I’m working offline with somebody who comments here to develop something, but in the interim not every article can be about that.

    If you find a particular article either useless for you or that you think misses the point, then go somewhere else and find one that is.

  79. Dr. Faust

    FH,

    Build a community. Raise your sons to be masculine. The greatest impact most people will have on the world is how they raise their children.

  80. nightskyradio

    vR – Off topic, but, a tragic news story. Humans must stop destroying the environment

    I tried to load that page and it killed my internet.

    Ok, so the modem acts up about once a day, just a coincidence of timing, but still funny. Also, “Dildo Extinction” would make the greatest name for a hardcore, nihilist, death/black/thrash metal band ever!

  81. Feminist Hater

    I get it Martel, your attitude is spoken like a true champ. If I don’t agree, if I voice something different or unlikable, I’m not allowed to continue to voice it.

    Well here, what possible value did this article provide for you? What possible new information did it provide for you? Anything? Anything you didn’t know before? Really, honestly, if it’s so amazing, what truth did it bring that we didn’t already know. And after pointing out that truth, offer some or other notion of a conclusion that puts it into perspective other than saying, “oh my gosh, we’re in trouble!”.

    Why should I not voice my dissension?

  82. Ton

    I already told you FH, you become powerful, dangerous and purposeful. Then you set out to conquer the world around you. It really is that simple. That won’t save society but that is how you raise a boy to be a man

    When the whimp is trained to fight, his body, mind and soul is changed and he is no longer a whimp. Once you become a custom to overcoming pain fear and hardships, the rest falls into place.

    Whatever your frame is in the world, your frame here is anything but masculine. And you know damn well I wasn’t making the case to throw untrained fighters in the ring with seasoned vets.

    And notice my post had nothing to do with women

    Dr F’ s advice is decent as well ( & all things I do, enjoy and recommend, but I’m not as good as I would like with woodworking & want to get better with cars. Maybe when I retire for the second time.

  83. nightskyradio

    Hipster Racist – It’s amazing isn’t it? That “domestic servitude” site has women swapping their best dinner recipes and some housework tips. THAT is “kinky?” That’s an “alternative sexuality?” Well I guess in an age where “gay marriage” is totally normal, than normal marriage is a kink, it’s “alternative.”

    They’re cismarried.

  84. theshadowedknight

    FH, what do you want? I already explained the steps needed. This is to inform. What do you want? You are never satisfied, and I am becoming tired of you complaining to me. You have to say for what you are looking before we can help you find it. What do you want?

    Thanks, Fuzzie.

    The Shadowed Knight

  85. Feminist Hater

    Ton, what is my frame? Come on, be man enough to say what you mean. You men think you are all so brilliant. Am I argumentative, am I a sissy boy, what exactly is so wrong with my frame?

    To train requires people to put time and effort into young boys. It means things like boxing, rifle training, sports, boy scouts. It means setting up places for boys to thrive, instead of tearing them down and then expecting boys to just ‘man up’.

    What were you making your case on Ton, if not throwing men in the deep end? It all boils down to taking the time to raise boys into men. However, society has not done that for 50 years. You all get that, right? You all get that you now have generations of men who have not been adequately prepared to be dominant and caring men.

    You really think training in a ring is going to repair all of that and things will just fall into place?

  86. Feminist Hater

    Yes Dr Faust, I know that. When you voice dissension, you’re always nothing but a pathetic wimp.

    I asked for clarification and what I get from you lot is contempt. You can all keep it, thank you very much.

  87. Ton

    Martel, I have to disagree with you somewhat. There must be a base line of physical power and potential for violent action. Not to the same degree for each man, but without that certain level, promise of retribution, there is no real individual masculine frame. Now add to that a man’s individual gifts, talents, temperment and each man’s frame will vary. However if you have to rely on someone else for protection… you got no frame, no power that cannot be stripped from you with relative ease.

    So all articles have to help FH? None can be posted for folks to fully developed a partially developed idea? Because I thought that was the idea behind almost all th posts in the manosphere

  88. Jeremy

    Over the past few days, I’ve been watching the PBS special on Prohibition. It’s been extremely interesting to watch this documentary that left no group without it’s dirty laundry exposed. It’s also been extraordinarily interesting from a red pill perspective. The basic conclusion that you get is that modern feminism, modern female political rights, all sprang from the push for prohibition.

    You cannot have America without a male-dominated frontier, because the work in a frontier-space is just too brutal. You can’t have a male-dominated frontier without the cultural institution of the saloon, a decidedly male space. It wouldn’t work in the time frame in which we conquered the frontier because men would have gone insane from having no outlets for their hard lives. Once the frontier was gone, the hard labor still existed because the now expanded nation needed industry, so the saloons remained. However, the women were unhaaapy (though this time likely for a good cause). They were unhappy with their alcoholic husbands, and the industry of brewery and brewery-owned-saloon that was getting them drunk every night. The protestant, rural woman was awoken to the political power that was possible for them when they realized they could use relatively peaceful protests to encourage more organization, and more affect on their local laws to remove the saloon influence. These women still did not have the vote, but they managed to bring about drastic changes in the local legality of alcoholic beverages, even before the 18th amendment, just from organization and protests. So the early seeds of modern feminism cannot exist without the saloon and saloon culture, and saloon culture doesn’t really exist without a frontier.

    What’s more hilarious is that prohibition was a dramatic failure. It was a thoroughly nanny-state law that did more single damage to American’s respect for law in general than all other bad laws combined before and since. It was women attempting to utilize man-space (poltiics) to restrict men from doing something the women didn’t like. That’s not too dissimilar from me, as a man, trying to keep a woman from sleeping around by calling her a slut. Ultimately my social shaming should have no affect on her whatsoever, because as a man, slut sociology and the affects of it’s shaming is alien to me, so my shaming is worthless. Likewise for women, politics has never had any real teeth on the individual lives of women because they can always simply cede responsibility for their finances, protection, and provisioning to a man. This makes the politics of the land effectively meaningless to their existence, and hence their votes something of a privilege without responsibility. See, women have the option of living in a bubble. Men have no such option, they always must be aware of the lay of the land, or they die/fail. So women using the law to affect male behavior can only produce unintended consequences, not desired results. It does this because men are all (ultimately) agents of the law, and women are (ultimately) not. Whether men choose to exercise it or not, they are agents of law because women cede responsibility for their protection and provisioning onto men. When women ask men to check out a noise downstairs in the middle of the night, that’s a wholesale dumping of law and order on your average male. Prohibition created almost nothing but unintended consequences because women were asking men to obey their own lawbook in a way that everybody knew was contrary to human dignity. Ultimately, by the time prohibition was nearing it’s end, there were more arrests for drunk driving, public drunkenness, and more drinking going on as a whole than there was before prohibition but in addition to all the added drinking, you had rampant violent crime and horrendous legal corruption. At one point you had Herbert Hoover, the President of the United States, giving speeches wherein he dictated to the masses that all alcoholic consumption, sale, transport, manufacturing would be eradicated; all while he was drinking whisky in the White House a few times a week at a poker game. It was a total failure. All it succeeded in doing was ending the saloon culture, and replacing it with the speakeasy and later, the bar (the only part of saloon culture that survived). Even more hysterical, the only major difference between the speakeasy and the saloon was the presence of women. Saloons were, by culture rather than fiat, men-only establishments. Women were not explicitly forbidden, but the culture was one such that the feminine was excluded. However, the speakeasy was a place for men and women, there was no discrimination. The culture changed literally overnight. Suddenly, only years after the beginning of the speakeasy, you had adult-age women who had grown up with alcohol and places of drinking available to them. Prohibition was repealed 14 years after it was enacted. Is it any wonder why that happened? I’ll tell you why, adult women were suddenly used to going out drinking, and they liked it and didn’t want to be shamed over it.

    tl:dr —> Prohibition would have never ended if women were never allowed to drink in public. Prohibition, and the beginnings of the feminine revolt was the result of history’s greatest invasion of male space, the destruction of the saloon.

    What prohibition DID DO, was give women the organizations to fight for the vote, and the first seedlings of modern feminism. It also created the nations first income tax, which was a total double-whammy on men. You see, before the national income tax, the federal government taxed vices. In fact, at one point, 70% of the federal budget was supplied by alcohol taxes. When the women’s lobby groups created an income tax, it was explicitly for the purpose of supplanting the alcohol tax, to make it palatable for politicians to cut off the vice taxes and ban alcohol. That’s right, women were primarily responsible for both banning male pleasures (alcohol) and taxing their production. It also created the Department of Justice, whose primary role during prohibition was to enforce the 18th amendment and the Volstead act.

    Women seem to need the presence of dominant masculinity to be happy. Prohibition would have never happened if instead of saloons, the men in America were drinking at home. It also would have never happened if saloons welcomed women. However, because of saloon culture, those men of the 1800s were absent from home a lot. I get the distinct impression that if a culture-wide male-only-space were ever re-created, regardless of what perfectly healthy and rational reason it might have to exist, it would be burnt to the ground as soon as possible by the women.

  89. Ton

    The way it works is
    1) you go to a gym
    2) they train you
    3) when the coach feels you are ready, he finds you a fight with someone of near equal ability/ experience

    You cannot be that unaware of technology world.

    You have adopted the looser mentality and you are a sad excuse of a man trying to drag every other man into your mire of misery. I’ve never meet a Boer with no balls before

  90. nightskyradio

    Christina – the only social science studies that exist on spanking and submission are all about BDSM. And the “science” on spanking and children is in the complete opposite direction. What gives?

    “Science” says spanking kids is always a Bad and Terrible Thing. This alleged science was perpetrated by two groups -

    -Well-meaning but overly sensitive people who wince at any form of correction or discipline. These are the useful idiots unwittingly helping….

    - The “it takes a village” people who want the state to raise the children, grooming them to be future servants of the state. Can’t have parents raising their own children to have any autonomy or independent thoughts now, can we?

    Some kids are gonna behave better if you spank them. A handful are gonna rebel instead. Make your own observations of your children and the children in your community and see what you can determine. Maybe even start an anonymous online journal and have other parents contribute. Do some science of your own. :)

    [ssm: We spank our children under only two circumstances, and they know what these two circumstances are. We have told the girls: 1. If you lie, that is an automatic spanking. Satan is the father of lies, so I'm just smackin' him out of your back side, darlin' and 2. If I issue a direct command and you turn your pretty little face toward me, ball up those little fists, stamp your foot, and say "No!" and then defy me, you will be spanked. Running into the street when I say Stop! can get you killed. I would rather wound your little pride than plan your funeral.

    We never spank in anger nor because they did something boneheaded or were sneaky or mouthy or anything like that. We only spank for lying and outright rebellion and we do not spank any daughter who has reached puberty. The best way to punish a Middle Schooler is to remove her iPod Touch.]

  91. Martel

    @ Ton: I’m not sure what you mean by your last question, or if it was even geared towards me.

    I agree that physical power is necessary for a man to be a man, and that’s what I think I said, so there’s not necessarily disagreement. To reword what you just said (I think), for some guys physical power will be his primary frame creator, for others it will be more supplementary, but yes, it’s got to be there. Physical wimps aren’t men. (but they can do well with women, I’ve seen it more than a few times)

    @ FHater: It’s not so much that you complain or disagree, but it is your tone. I’d rather not describe it this way, but it fits: when you get in certain moods you seem really bitchy. I’ve seen some dudes here and on other forums express disagreement far more vehemently than you, but they don’t remind me of a whiny little sister. You do.

    And you might not like exactly what some are saying to you, but Ton has offered suggestions on numerous occasions, and you don’t strike me as being even close to grateful. Maybe he’s not saying exactly what you want him to say in just the right way, but he’s maing an effort. that seems entirley lost on you.

    I wish you well, but interacting with you goes nowhere so I’m not doing it any more.

  92. Feminist Hater

    There we go Ton, that’s it. Anyway, I’m off to take my silly excuse for a life.

    For the first time in awhile I see that there isn’t any real value to life. We live, we die. It’s all the same. If there’s one thing you lot taught me, it’s that there are no true people in this world. Just people who like you one second when you agree with them and hate you the next when you don’t.

    It’s pointless, what even happens when you win? Nothing. All I’ve had my entire life is a looser mentality, for when I was born, everything worth fighting for was already taken away.

    When you finally realise what life is. You’re not sorry when it ends.

    And Dr Faust. I would suggest you do the same, a life full of misery is pointless.

  93. theshadowedknight

    So, Jeremy, what you are saying is that women did not have men around, so they lost it? Hilarity ensues. Another example of their desperate need for men. Bless the little dears, but what a sh*t fit they pitched. They just needed a good spanking, and all would have been well.

    Too funny. Bad, but so funny at the same time.

    The Shadowed Knight

  94. Anonymoose

    “Is that a long winded way of saying he disagrees with the article?”

    No, but I got a chuckle out of FH talking about “long winded”.

    To better understand what is going on, contrast Feminist Hater and Bob Wallace.

    FH smacks you in the face (at least several times, LOL!) with what he thinks, but he is completely transparent. What you see is what you get, and you either agree with him, or you get pissed off, but you are never left with a lingering sense of unease. His context is obvious and what he presents is entirely self-contained. He is not inducing you to link to, and degrade, positive possibilities in your life.

    But he really should stop complaining that other people have not done things as he would have done them, and start actually doing something, in his own way. This article addresses only a small part of what needs to be done, and there is a lot left over from which FH could choose.

    Now let’s take a look at Bob’s comment.

    He presents disjointed fragments that could be reasonable, in the proper context. But he provides no explicit or limited context, so most people will automatically, and somewhat subconsciously, try to make whatever they were reading fit around his manipulative subversion.

    He also implies authority and veracity, by “naming the object” (which is nothing more than “stamp collecting”), in this case “hybristophilia”, another in a long line of diseases-of-the-week, with pills no doubt to follow. When you see something like this, just remember that even when an MD writes in Latin on the prescription form, its significance is still nothing more than “shove a suppository up your ass every 12 hours”.

    So when you are reading along, and suddenly feel like you have been nudged off-kilter, you need to stop and think about what just happened, which is that your subconscious mental connections have been realigned, a bit. To counteract that, you need to 1) realize what has happened, and 2) consciously evaluate what you have just read and thought, using your personal or religious principles, and the real-world evidence that you have been seeing for years.

    Otherwise, when you encounter similar ideas again, or even when you consider incorporating them into your daily life, you will subconsciously tend to give some, or even equal, weight to the manipulative bullshit that has been slipped in sideways.

  95. Martel

    @ Jeremy: I just finished that documentary on Prohibition myself. Those saloons sounded awesome, and I’d love to have some sort of equivalent today.

    And I never knew the connection between Prohibition and the institution of the income tax before.

    In short, the Progressive Era is what happens when Christian heresy merges with secular socialistic utopianism, It’s ungodly, feminine, and results in bloodshed.

  96. FuzzieWuzzie

    Feminist Hater,
    You’re being contrarian and too shrill. Since I’m on a John Phillips Sousa kick:

  97. theshadowedknight

    We do not hate you, FH. We are disgusted by you. You petulantly demand solutions, and we offer them. You reply by whining that it is not a solution, and what are we doing for men? We explain our goals and you say we are abandoning men. Our assistance is spit on and then you just keep bitching.

    If nothing will do, not a thing we say good enough, then do it yourself. If you are so good, then go do something. Otherwise, shut up.

    The Shadowed Knight

  98. Ton

    It was not directed toward you Martel and we do see eye to eye on frame. I find it interesting how different men work out the details for themselves.

    I too wash my hands of FH. SSM sent him my email, he’s done shit to seek actual advice and I’ve done all I care to for him, but thanks for noticing Martel.

    Folks should understand, I don’t care about society or fixing its problems. I am, however, very willing to help men, and potential men, as individuals. Same for ladies if they are that perplexed.

    Life is wonderful because of hardships and over coming them

  99. Jeremy

    @theshadowedknight

    So, Jeremy, what you are saying is that women did not have men around, so they lost it?

    Well, in fairness to those women, a drunk man is not a very masculine man. So if they came home drunk, it’s just as bad as falling asleep on a park bench.

    In modern times, we now know that alcoholism exists, but it really only exists in maybe 10% of the population maximum. Saloon culture was primarily a decidedly male space for most males that women did not like and complained to their preachers/pastors about. The alcoholics were just the excuse to end it for everybody. You know the rest of the story.

  100. nightskyradio

    While many factors contribute to the positive results from sexual activity, it seems to be primarily a function of semen… Women need this chemical infusion to help properly regulate their physiologies and psychologies, and birth control that blocks semen results in unhappy, unhealthy women when compared to those who do not use a barrier.

    Liz Phair agrees (highly NSFW).

  101. Farm Boy

    You bitch more than the women that post here.

    Actually, the women who post here are pretty good about that.

  102. Feminist Hater

    Actually Ton, I didn’t want or need your advice. So I didn’t contact you at all. You’re a prick. I have talked to others about myself, we’ll see where that goes.

    To everyone else, if you think all I’m worth is nothing. You’re probably right. However, I shall not take my life just yet but I will one day. I’ve started to hate life, I mean really hate it and I am just so tired of feeling like this, I know no one really cares, so please, do wash your hands of me. I’m not worth it.

    And SSM, please ban me from this blog.

    It’s easy to wash your hands for people you don’t know about or care about. I too, wash my hands of all of you.

  103. Jeremy

    @Martel

    Those saloons sounded awesome, and I’d love to have some sort of equivalent today.

    I’m not certain I’m ready to cede integrated drinking. I like drinking around women. However, I believe I would very much like a male-only space that were entirely socially acceptable. So many women seem to feel horrendously threatened by such institutions though.

  104. Martel

    FHater: I would feel bad, I WANT TO feel bad, but I don’t because you’re giving me every reason to believe you want it this way.

    Growth requires humility, paying attention to people when they tell you that you come across as whiny, etc. By being humble sometimes we can improve, and therefore humility is a form of self-respect.

    Self-loathing is what you’re doing–ignoring everybody’s suggestions and then hating both them and yourself for being a loser. You don’t have to be a loser, but you insist on it, and as long as you insist on it, you will be.

    You’re going around in circles, both with us and yourself. Like that chick in secretary, it’s not about finding some root cause. Just stop doing it.

  105. Ton

    Well you got one thing right, I am a prick. It’s one of my better qualities.

    I fulfilled my obligation when I offered my help. You declined. What you elect to do is on you. When you eat a gun, that is your choice, your decision and not my responsibility.

    Some pua wrote an article about what to do when a chick says she’ll kill herself if she can’t have the man she wants. Wish I had that link, but I do not respond to theatrics and hysterics

  106. Anonymoose

    By the way, Ton, I enjoyed reading your autobiographical comment in the previous post. You provide a lot of important information and insight, and it helped to tie everything together.

  107. Ton

    Would camping do as a more social acceptable male only space? Personally I don’t get it since most of my day is void of women, and when I want to hunt or fish I tell them no chicks allowed sut I don’t doubt the need since many men have made the observation. I’m thinking primitive camping in the Great Dismal Swamp might ensure girls don’t ask.

  108. earl

    “To everyone else, if you think all I’m worth is nothing. You’re probably right. However, I shall not take my life just yet but I will one day. I’ve started to hate life, I mean really hate it and I am just so tired of feeling like this, I know no one really cares, so please, do wash your hands of me. I’m not worth it.”

    Who cares what people think about you? If that is your justification for you hating life and eventual suicide….then your death will mean nothing too.

    If you are tired of feeling like that…then change your feelings. Reality is based off your perception of it.

  109. Dr. Faust

    FH,

    I used to be in that mode a lot. I wanted to give up because things seemed hopeless. I’m going to say this. Men don’t need women. I used to think that they did. I thought men needed sex and the reason why I wasn’t happy was because I didn’t have female companionship. It still bothers me sometimes but not often. I feel less lonely as days go past. After decades of trying to change I feel stable for the first. So what changed for me?

    This marks about the 90th day I’ve not orgasmed. No fap has worked for me to change my life like nothing else has. It’s been so successful I have no plans on going back. I know that I don’t need a woman at all. I know in a way that nothing you say can ever convince me otherwise. I see it and feel it in my life. Don’t get me wrong. I still get suicidal and depressed but things have changed.

    You say you don’t want self-improvement. You don’t need help. But you do. You wanted it bad enough to come on here asking for help in a non-direct way and I can understand why. Maybe in your past you asked someone to help you fulfill the needs you have and they hurt you. So you learned to take an indirect approach but that hasn’t worked either. You reached out on this blog to find some sympathy but you’re too afraid of appearing vulnerable with someone. Anger is an expression of defensiveness and we’re only defensive when we feel threatened. There is no one who wants to feel anger.

  110. FuzzieWuzzie

    Feminist Hater,
    Picking fights on the manosphere is not going to fill the hole in your heart.
    Today, I got a phone call that set me back a lot. Now, my dance card is empty. Time for the bear to find something else to take his mind off of it.
    It would be nice to experience a little succes once in a while to form a basis for comparison.
    Take the night off and get away from your computer.
    Or, cruise youtube music videos.
    Anything to get your mind off of it.

  111. theshadowedknight

    NSR, that was hilarious. Where did you find that? I cannot imagine it ever made the radio stations.

    She is correct, though. The hormones released replenish the skin, nails, and hair, giving it a glow. The sweating and exercise cleans out the pores and helps with skin health. Sex also helps women stay younger longer. She was totally serious, and quite accurate, too.

    Gentlemen, you, too, must make the effort. It is a lot to demand, and it will be an burden, but you need to give them your hot, white cum. Please, do it for the women. It is for their sake. Ladies, we just want what is best for you. It is for your own good. Let us help you help yourselves. You deserve to be at the pinnacle of health, so we will help you reach that climax. No need to thank us, helping you is its own reward.

    FH, I have cut family loose, and it may happen again. You are an anonymous voice on the Internet, what makes you any better? I offered help, and so have others. Yes, I am a prick, because the truth hurts, it stings. You have to learn from life, and we can only show you the way.

    The Shadowed Knight

    [ssm: LOLOLOL...TSK, love paragraphs 2 and 3. My goodness, how very philanthropic men are.]

  112. earl

    It’s a sad world when women prefer shoving ice cream down their throat as their source of pleasure…over having white hot cum.

    I should write a diet book…it’ll be called “have sex”.

  113. Jeremy

    @Feminist Hater

    When you finally realise what life is. You’re not sorry when it ends.

    When you finally realize what death is, you will find yourself wanting to see value in it.
    I’ve never tasted barrel, but I’ve thought about this entirely too much. My conclusion was that what I really wanted was a death that had meaning for society. Call it Klingon, call it a Warrior-mindset, I just wanted a death that meant something.

    Suicide is meaningless.

  114. Ton

    Thank you Anonymoose…. I think….. A lady tying pieces of a man’s life together is mighty concerning…. I have done some living and I plan to squeeze every drop of joy pain and triumph out this life before I cross the Jordon.

    TSK, you are the king asshole , I’m the prick. Don’t poach my glory brosepth

  115. van Rooinek

    NSR: “Science” says spanking kids is always a Bad and Terrible Thing. This alleged science was perpetrated by two groups -
    -Well-meaning but overly sensitive people….
    - The “it takes a village” people who want the state to raise the children….

    I think there is a third category… perhaps the largest?… composed of people who were severely ABUSED as children, are psychologically damaged in the extreme as a result. And for that reason, they CANNOT calm down and look at the situation long enough to see the difference between a sensible, necessary (and well deserved) spanking, versus the abuse they suffered.

    We see a vast and unbridgeable gulf between the two — but to these damaged people it appears to be a single continuum, with a short, steep, and very slippery slope. And they are absolutely outraged and horrified by those of us who dare to defend spanking. We seem like monsters to them — since their damaged minds can’t separate spanking from abuse, at some level they believe we’re defending and promoting what happened to THEM.

    It’s like trying to explain moderate drinking, to someone who grew up in a family of hopelessly dysfunctional, totally out of control, violent alcoholics. Good luck with that. If you’ve had that conversation (I have), you know that such a person will never, never, never “get” moderate drinking, and cannot fathom why any good person, any Christian, would ever even contemplate having one drop.

    Well, anti-spanking people, IMHO, are in the same category. Hopeless.

  116. Martel

    Anything can be abused. There have always been abusive parents, alcoholics, and mass shooters. There have always been even more great parents who spanked every once in a while, people who drink but don’t go nuts about it, and people who use their guns responsibly.

    But feeble minds can’t grasp that, they think that if anybody anywhere abuses some freedom that nobody nowhere can. So “BAN IT! BAN IT! BAN IT!” they shriek.

    And I suspect these folks have some massive projection issues. They’re so messed up that if they had a gun they’d probably shoot their kid for not eating his peas, so they assume that the rest of us are the same way.

  117. theshadowedknight

    Earl, you could write a companion exercise book, and call it “Have More Sex.”

    Ton, I am indeed the King of Assholes, but I am also a member in good standing of the Order of the Brotherhood of Pricks. You are *The* Prick. I am merely *a* prick. That honor is yours, no poaching intended.

    The Shadowed Knight

  118. sunshinemary Post author

    Feminist Hater:

    I shall not take my life just yet but I will one day.

    1. Assuming the Catholics are wrong and you don’t end up in HELL for committing suicide, then know this: if I ever find out you’ve offed yourself, the first thing I shall do upon entering Heaven is find you and slap the shit out of you.

    2. Does someone in your real life know that you feel this way? And if not, is there someone whom you trust that you could talk to? I know we live in a crazy, messed up world, yet somehow most of us manage to find some joy, some small happiness, here that makes life sweet even in these dark days. The fact that you can’t find any of that is not a normal reaction, whatever the mano-nihilists may say

  119. van Rooinek

    FH: For the first time in awhile I see that there isn’t any real value to life. We live, we die. It’s all the same. If there’s one thing you lot taught me, it’s that there are no true people in this world. …It’s pointless, what even happens when you win? Nothing. All I’ve had my entire life is a looser mentality, for when I was born, everything worth fighting for was already taken away.

    FH, imagine a time portal opening. Through it you can see wild, bearded Boers of the past, those who adapted to anew land, won the victiory made a covenant at Blood River,, those who kept the British invaders on the run for so long, despite being so out numbered… And the wild bearded Boers can see you, and understand all that you are going through.

    WHAT do you think they would say to you? They’d tell you to fulfill the Covenant that they handed down to you, for sure. Maybe they’d tell you to trek somewhere… Orania, perhaps? If the portal had internet access, what would the old Boer patriarchs post on the Manosphere?

    I guarantee you, they would NOT be advising suicide.

    Take a vacation out in the bush. Hunt, eat biltong, drink beer, relax… spend some time re-reading your Volk’s history…. and get on your knees before the Lord and renew your national covenant. He just might speak to you… be ready to listen.

    Thus is the advice from an American who wishes you well. Tot siens.

  120. van Rooinek

    FH.. … one more thing:

    Around the time of the Waco massacre, I got before the Lord and offered myself as a sacrifice: Let me die, or be killed, if need be — but let America somehow be restored to what it should be..

    Well…. Red Dawn hasn’t happened, America is worse off than ever, and I am still alive. And there’s been no mad rush to embrace the path of the Pilgrim Fathers. But I haven’t given up.

    As a Boer, you should go here; http://bloodrivercovenant.com/

  121. sunshinemary Post author

    And, Feminist Hater, what if the Catholics are right? What if you kill yourself and end up in Hell? What if in hell there are evil demons sent to torment you, disguised as me and the ladies from Traditional Christianity? Better you should stick it out here until the hour of your death appointed by the Lord and end up spending eternity in the presence of Jesus than to kill yourself and spend eternity listening to Demon Alte, Demon Elspeth, Demon Saint Velvet, and Demon Sunshine Mary criticizing and nagging you in hell.

  122. van Rooinek

    What if in hell there are evil demons sent to torment you,….. spend eternity listening to Demon Alte, Demon Elspeth, Demon Saint Velvet, and Demon Sunshine Mary criticizing and nagging you in hell.

    I don’t know what SV looks like, but Alte and Elspeth and SSM are hot… and if we’re already in hell anyway, nothing left to lose…

    [ssm: But our demonic doppelgängers are very fat and eschew bikini waxing. That's right - fat, hairy, demonic harpies, taunting you, Feminist Hater, to MAN UP! day and night for-evah and evah! bwahahaaha.... :twisted: ]

  123. earl

    If you kill yourself…you will end up in Hell. Because you signed your own ticket for it.

    The greatest gift God gives anyone is the gift of life.

    It’s one thing if a drunk or a disease or a lightning strike takes it, that’s life…but to willfully do it is another story.

    Do you even know the odds of you being here? You had to beat out 300 million other sperm.

  124. FuzzieWuzzie

    SSM,
    If Feminist Hater went out and sought professional help, it would be just like Mr.Bill going to the police and complaining that he was abused. He found Sluggo as the desk sargeant. OOPS!
    FH has “man” issues and appealing to professionals won’t work. They won’t acknowledge the underlying problems as they’re completely feminized.
    No shortage of tea and sympathy for “female” issues, though.

    [ssm: Oh, I agree with you about the "professional help" route, for the most part. When I said talk to someone, I was clear that it should be someone he knows, like a priest, pastor, family member or friend.]

    FH,
    If you do go the professional route, start with Tara Palmatier on shrink4men.com
    Her specialty is helping men recover from relationships with BPD exes, but maybe she can point you in the right direction.

  125. Dr. Faust

    You don’t go to hell if you kill yourself. Most likely you are already in hell. This is as bad as it gets.

    [ssm: Listen, little Miss Pollyanna's evil twin, I guarantee you that a) there is a literal hell, whether you believe in it or not and b) those not washed in the Blood of the Lamb go to this literal hell for eternity, and finally c) that it is worse than anything you have ever imagined or ever will be able to imagine. You think here is bad? Ha. Some of God's presence is still in this place. In hell, He removes His presence entirely.]

  126. Jeremy

    @van Rooinek

    Well, anti-spanking people, IMHO, are in the same category. Hopeless.

    I was spanked as a child. If you had asked me 10 years ago, I would have said that it was probably good for me. If you ask me now, I would say that women should not be allowed to spank male children, and that spanking in general is too easily misconstrued by a child mind to be 100% safe to use by any parent.

    Regarding mother’s spanking their boys, I find this entirely, 100% destructive. The reason this is destructive is that boys often start associating the humiliation experienced with spanking with the emotions experienced by women. When fathers punish, they do so based on rules. The paddle hurts but the understanding is clear and emotions don’t really come into play, only fatherly law. Women are emotional creatures and when adult emotions get mixed up with physical humiliation bad things happen to children. The spanking suddenly takes on a lot more meaning than just a rule violation. Most parents have enough trouble spanking their own kids while not feeling strong emotion, women almost can’t help but show it.

    Regarding spanking in general, I find it psychopathic, regardless of perceived benefit. The reason is simple to me. If I were a traditional husband, then my wife essentially enjoys a subordinate role in which for at least some things, she’s playing by my rules. Not all things, but things like, “Don’t go spend more than $xxx.xx at the market,” had best be obeyed if I am to be able to balance the checkbook at the end of the month. This puts her in a vulnerable position relative to me, one where if she has ceded control of her protection, finances and provisioning, then she will not know all the truths of her own survival. She will essentially cede some knowledge for a more carefree life. If I then use physical force on her to enforce the rules by which she must live by, I am treating another human being with great disrespect. She has willingly ceded elements of her existence to my control, if I then hit her for her own ignorance of the elements of her life she has ceded to me, I am abusing her. Children have this same subordinate role in a family structure. How then is it justifiable to use force on children who have even less capability of understanding the why and the how of their rule violation than the traditional wife?

    My simple point is, if wife-beating is not ok, even for small rule violations, how is spanking ok?
    I’m not going to stand her and pretend I have an alternative to spanking that is just as effective. However I think my point is clear. If wife beating is not ok, and I do not believe it is, then spanking can’t be ok either.

  127. van Rooinek

    Many male children, CAN NOT be socialized into civilized behavior, without occasionally resorting to pain compliance measures. I was one of them. I’d be a feral lost cause.

    When fathers punish, they do so based on rules. The paddle hurts but the understanding is clear and emotions don’t really come into play, only fatherly law. Women are emotional creatures and when adult emotions get mixed up with physical humiliation bad things happen to children.

    Any sensible parent of either sex, calms down and spells out the reason for the spanking, instead of flying off the handle and just punishing in a moment of anger. Your inability to distinguish the two — or, your assumption that only men do the former — is likely colored by your own bad experiences. Think about that.

  128. Dr. Faust

    Many male children, CAN NOT be socialized into civilized behavior, without occasionally resorting to pain compliance measures. I was one of them. I’d be a feral lost cause.

    It’s impossible to know what you’d be like without being hit by your parents. Children can be reasoned with but first you actually have to TRY AND REASON with them instead of assuming that they can’t reason.

  129. Anonymoose

    Ton,

    “Thank you Anonymoose…. I think….. A lady tying pieces of a man’s life together is mighty concerning…. I have done some living and I plan to squeeze every drop of joy pain and triumph out this life before I cross the Jordon.”

    I meant the one on July 22, 2013 at 8:16 pm, which set Whiny Ray off again. Your life experiences, and the obstacles that you have overcome, give an additional perspective about your path, and what you are trying to teach to others (thank you for that!). Don’t really know what you mean by “a lady tying pieces of a man’s life together”.

    And when you mentioned the 7/3 year split, I remembered reading one of your comments a while back, and thinking that the 338 Lapua is unconventional for regular Army.

  130. donalgraeme

    I don’t know what SV looks like, but Alte and Elspeth and SSM are hot… and if we’re already in hell anyway, nothing left to lose…

    This is Hell we are talking about vR, HELL. The Pit. Gehenna. The place where the beer bottles have holes… and the women don’t.

    On a more serious note…

    Suicide is murder, as it is an unjustified killing, with yourself as the victim. What makes it different from other types of sin is that you cannot, by the very nature of the sin, repent of it. [This is where Catholic theology holds that suicide =Hell, because when you die without repenting of a mortal sin, like murder, Hell is where you go]

  131. Dr. Faust

    Reverse Pollyanna. That is adorable. I love it.

    My problem with hell is that it’s not hell. For there to be eternal suffering we need earth. Let me explain. There cannot be light without darkness. Without light there is no darkness. There is just nothing. Duality defines itself by contrast of what it is not. There cannot be any hell as defined by eternal suffering because that would not be eternal suffering. There must be moments of joy mixed with long periods of suffering. THAT is hell and that’s what this world is. Brief periods of pleasure and long nights of pain and misery. Without one then there is neither.

    SSM, how are you so certain there is hell? Don’t you doubt?

    Also, the idea that suicide is irredeemable sin is one interpretation of the bible. Since we’re all good protestants here (except earl) I reserve the right to interpret the bible as I see fit and I see nothing against suicide. In fact, life must be lived voluntarily or else it is slavery and if we are slaves to God then how good could he be?

  132. Morvena

    @Ton – So the idea is that every man needs to at least have it in him to be able to be physically violent if the situation calls for it? For example, my husband tends to prefer trouncing people on an intellectual level. However, one time we had a flat tire and I commented that it looked like I was by myself (he was kneeling on the side of the car facing away from the road) and he said, “Yeah but if anyone stops, the 6ft guy with the tire iron stands up and they’ll want to consider their next move carefully.” It’s definitely comforting to know that your husband would cave in someone’s skull with a tire iron if he had to, because I doubt that I could manage it.

    And at the risk of being TMI, I’m in the minority group of wives who aren’t getting sex from their husbands, though in our case it’s almost certainly due to side effects from medication that has severely dampened his libido. The rest of our relationship is as good as it’s always been, but for lack of a better way to put it, it’s like having a piece missing from a puzzle. I can definitely agree that women need sex from their husbands as much as they need sex from their wives. Apologies if I’ve rambled; sometimes I have too many thoughts to express them in a coherent fashion.

  133. earl

    If Jesus himself mentioned Hell and what it’s like…then there must be one.

    You know there is a part where He makes the assessment that it’s better to be in Heaven without a hand or eye than to go to Hell fully functional. That’s how bad it is.

  134. Ton

    Just joshing you Anonymoose, I’m not really concerned. Thank you for the kind words.

    .338. Lapua and Barret .50 has filtered down to the typical sniper section, though tuned up Remington 700′s and M14′s are still the most widely used. Really we are living in the golden age of precision, long distance direct fire target interdiction. Much improvement in tactics ( very aggressive these days) gear, rifles, scopes, ammo, training…. it’s a wonderful time for a man to be alive. With custom built ammo, tailored to a specific rifle, men are now taking head shots at distances we use to consider sketchy for torso shots. The young men coming up behind me will be surgeons. It’s humbling to look at a kid and know he will do things with a rifle you will never pull off.

  135. Ton

    Yes darling Morvena that is what I am saying and you example is a perfect demonstration why, and the proper female response. Not saying a man has to be a pro, or even win, but he needs to be willing and able. A tire iron evens things up nicely.

  136. van Rooinek

    Many male children, CAN NOT be socialized into civilized behavior, without occasionally resorting to pain compliance measures….

    Children can be reasoned with but first you actually have to TRY AND REASON with them instead of assuming that they can’t reason.

    What kind of a monster do you take me for? OF COURSE we reason with them, first. DUH. But reason is fallen, and can sometimes be intentionalyl disregarded. Reason just doesn’t always work.

  137. Dr. Faust

    What kind of a monster do you take me for?

    The type of monster who hits a child and then justifies it when there are other ways to parent that are more peaceful.

  138. Miserman

    @Feminist Hater

    <I.However, I shall not take my life just yet but I will one day. I’ve started to hate life, I mean really hate it and I am just so tired of feeling like this.

    FH, I’m not going blow sunshine up your ass. Any blowing needs to come from a woman. ;-)

    That said, I have been in some serious despair throughout most of my life. It is a miracle that I didn’t off myself at sixteen or at twenty-one or at twenty-eight when I succumbed to being in a wheelchair. It’s damned depressing to be a man and need help usually reserved for a child. Combine that with the fact that I did not discover the “red pill” until I was in my late thirties and frankly, things look pretty bad. Some days I get real cynical, real depressed. As Hank Williams, Jr. sings, I get whiskey bent and hell bound.

    I belief that if I throw away what is left of my ruined life my maker would be none too pleased with me. Without divulging too much, I am currently in a situation to make man watch Oprah and listen to feminist speeches to numb the pain. Every prospect that I had over the past five years is evaporated and my last attempt to move forward was shut in my face, leaving me in a place of stagnation and entropy. My friends regularly pray for and with me one friend even broke down into tears because of what I’m going through. So much discouragement, so much despair.

    Still, I manage to get up every morning, fine what little bits of happiness I can, and face the day. There are some young witnesses from abusive families who look up to me because of my constant attempts to be positive and not in a constant state of bitterness. I cannot imagine what their outlook on life would be if they learned that I had offed myself. I know there are people who have told me how much I inspire them and yet have no idea how much grief I endure on a daily basis. To know that I inspire them is enough. I carry on.

    I may get down occasionally, but I refuse to stay down.

  139. earl

    “The type of monster who hits a child and then justifies it when there are other ways to parent that are more peaceful. ”

    A spanking is in the glutes…the most cushioned part of the body. The few times I remember being spanked the pain lasted all of a few minutes…and then I was fine again. Everytime I was spanked it was because I was doing something destructive or hurting my brother. That was the only way I learned a lesson.

    This time out or reasoning stuff is garbage. You are not supposed to spare the rod.

    “Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them.”

    Proverbs 13:24

  140. Cail Corishev

    Yeah, if you actually read the gospels, cover-to-cover instead of just skipping to the good parts everyone’s familiar with, it starts to seem like Jesus spent most of His time doing two things: casting out demons and warning people about Hell. He said Heaven was beyond our understanding so He didn’t even try to describe it, but He went on and on about Hell.

    If that’s not enough, many people since then have been given visions of it.

    By the way, putting on my Amateur Catholic Answer Guy hat for a moment: Catholics don’t believe that suicide is a special Hell-deserving sin above all others or something. But it’s murder, so it’s a mortal sin, and you can’t repent and confess it afterwards, so logically there’s only one possible result. If you murder someone else, you can repent and be forgiven later; but if you murder yourself, you’re pretty much stuck. Presumably, if you killed yourself in some slow-acting but unstoppable way — exposing yourself to a fatal level of radiation, maybe? — you could then have second thoughts, repent and go to Confession, and be absolved. But that’s just theory; in real life successful suicide doesn’t leave time for a second chance.

  141. van Rooinek

    What kind of a monster do you take me for? [nb. that was a rhetorical question]

    The type of monster who hits a child and then justifies it when there are other ways to parent that are more peaceful.

    There aren’t other ways. FACT. Call it the parenting “red pill”. You’ll learn if you ever have kids of your own. Also see Proverbs 13:24.

    As for my Dad and Mom, and myself and my wife, being “monsters”… your baseless insult says more about YOU than them.

  142. Dr. Faust

    I don’t have kids. But I know others who do and raise them without spanking. So it can be done but you choose not.

    A spanking is in the glutes…the most cushioned part of the body. The few times I remember being spanked the pain lasted all of a few minutes…and then I was fine again. Everytime I was spanked it was because I was doing something destructive or hurting my brother. That was the only way I learned a lesson.

    I agree with you that spanking doesn’t cause lasting physical damage.The damage is psychological and not physical. My mother used that passage to justify spanking me when she grew angry. As a result I was irrevocably changed because of it. While it’s not possible to know what I would have been without it I am certain that it altered my sexuality into something I hate. All thanks to her. Why do you think I know so much about BDSM and submissive men? I could write a book.

    This is why I don’t follow any Christians. You follow a sadistic torture god. My God is a god of peace and mercy who wishes to end suffering. Not chain people to lives they hate to endure pain they did not ask to endure and have no justifiable reason to live through. I offer people suffering, mercy. Kill yourself because if God is love then he will have mercy as no one in this world apparently does. And if he’s not a god of love and still demands obedience then why follow him?

    Your life is gods, you say. Then I’m a slave. You can’t kill yourself even in the worst of suffering. Then my slave-master is a sadist since he revels in pain. But then why call the torture god a god of love?

    Do you know why? Because when you look into the Bible you see a reflection of yourself. I see a guide on how to live a peaceful life, how to know wisdom from folly, and how to end suffering on earth. What you see in the bible is what you want to see and is a reflection of who you are. So when you quote me your torture gods justification for beating your children I can see clearly what god you worship and it is not the one I know.

  143. Learner

    It is curious to me that a woman would need to be spanked or have her hair pulled to “feel submissive” to her husband. It seems to me that this is not the way it was meant to be, but rather indicates something is off.

    [ssm: That would be curious to me, too. However, no woman here has said that she "needs" anything in particular to "feel submissive" to her husband, so I have no answer for you. As for spanking and hair-pulling in bed - while I don't need it, I sure do enjoy it on occasion.]

  144. Ton

    My mother hates me. When I was a child she would simply collapse in tears. She never spanked, she went fucking nuts. My father gave up spanking me because it was ineffective and he reckoned it was teetering on abuse. Don’t recollect him every being angry when he whooped me. Big difference between the two.

    As for the morality of it, Earl crushed it with the Bible quote. The Old Testament is full of all sorts of things soft people cannot abide. I backing Sky Six. A man knows when he’s fighting above his weight class.

    Totally off topic, girl just told me her ideal marriage vows would be
    Him, promise to protect, provide, correct and cherish
    Hers, obey and____ on command

    Life is good. Got a glass full of 108 proof Wild Turkey, my Girl at my feet, a Gurkha Titan in my hand and on one of my ladies chatting with the other. Life is so very good.

  145. Sharrukin

    Dr. Faust July 24, 2013 at 7:33 pm

    The type of monster who hits a child and then justifies it when there are other ways to parent that are more peaceful.

    My niece and her husband thought the same way…until they had kids. It took almost two years for them to slowly come over to the dark side, but they did.

    Spanking isn’t a beating and children are not adults.

  146. Dr. Faust

    Yeah, if you actually read the gospels, cover-to-cover instead of just skipping to the good parts everyone’s familiar with, it starts to seem like Jesus spent most of His time doing two things: casting out demons and warning people about Hell. He said Heaven was beyond our understanding so He didn’t even try to describe it, but He went on and on about Hell.

    Then it depends on how you interpret hell. I’ve shown that eternal suffering cannot be hell so the hell you believe in needs to be redefined. Why not make it hell on earth, a hell within your mind, of your own creation, one of which Christ is the path to salvation?

  147. Sharrukin

    Dr. Faust

    My God is a god of peace and mercy who wishes to end suffering.

    Have you given him a cool sounding name yet?

  148. Ton

    My God is the God of war, He trains my hand to the bow, commands me to be strong and fear only Him. He hands the enemy over to me does not shy away from genocide and has no political correctness in Him

  149. van Rooinek

    Dr Faust: I agree with you that spanking doesn’t cause lasting physical damage.The damage is psychological and not physical. My mother used that passage to justify spanking me when she grew angry

    There’s the problem right there. She was hitting you in order to vent her own anger (which is indeed deeply damaging, it feels like hate) — she wasn’t trying to drive home a lesson that the child refused to heed any other way.

    You’re exactly the damaged soul I was talking about above:

    people who were severely ABUSED as children, are psychologically damaged in the extreme as a result. And for that reason, they CANNOT calm down and look at the situation long enough to see the difference between a sensible, necessary (and well deserved) spanking, versus the abuse they suffered.

    A couple of posts ago I was really mad at you. I see now that attitude was wrong. Now, I feel sorry for you. Doesn’t alter the fact that you’re wrong about spanking though.

  150. van Rooinek

    Have you given him a cool sounding name yet?
    Jesus Christ will suffice.

    Sorry, the “hell and damnation and judgement” guy got that one copyrighted long ago.
    Pick another.

  151. Dr. Faust

    I don’t think I was abused. The physical damage was very minimal. The damage to my psyche was permanent and irreversible as far as I can tell. The spankings were normally light.

  152. van Rooinek

    Dr. Faust — You posted an image of Odin.
    Do you really think that Odinism would outlaw spanking?

    And after typing the above, and before hitting “post comment”, ever the fact checker, I humorously decided to google “Odinism spanking”… just for laughs.. And…

    http://www.odinist.com/othala/archive/index.php/t-3092.html

    Is there NOTHING that isn’t on the internet???? Lolz…

  153. Sharrukin

    Dr. Faust July 24, 2013 at 8:11 pm

    Jesus Christ will suffice.

    You mean this guy?

    He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

    I think you may have misjudged who he is.

  154. van Rooinek

    The damage to my psyche was permanent and irreversible as far as I can tell. The spankings were normally light.

    But she spanked in rage. It came across as rejection, not justice. THAT”S what damaged you. That’s why you mix sex (acceptance) and BDSM (pain).

  155. Novaseeker

    The idea that violence is inherent in a proper sexuality is fundamentally disordered.

    As for Secretary, I did see the film back in 2003, and basically the violence she committed against herself was replaced by violence he committed against her. The fact that it was “consensual” is immaterial. Loving sex is not violent, loving relationships are not violent, even if the violence is consensual.

  156. Dr. Faust

    Sharrukin,

    That’s revelations which was probably some acid trip or bad tacos that dude who wrote it ate. Beside, I conveniently ignore parts of the bible I don’t understand as I’m sure you do. If not then why don’t you carry out animal sacrifice like the old testament calls for?

  157. nightskyradio

    TS – NSR, that was hilarious. Where did you find that? I cannot imagine it ever made the radio stations.

    When she released an album in 2003, I was listening to samples on some site and saw one track listed as “H.W.C.” I didn’t know what it stood for until i started playing the track, and busted a gut laughing. And no, I don’t think it got airplay except maybe on a few alternative stations, who probably would have had to bleep it.

    Superman and Lois Lane agree so much that he keeps robots on standby just for emergencies-

    http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7315/9360017861_abf3840426_o.jpg

    The robots even have an 8-track player installed to blare H.W.C. Or maybe some Barry (not Perry) White.

  158. Miserman

    As for spanking and hair-pulling in bed – while I don’t need it, I sure do enjoy it on occasion.

    Wow. The idea of a “Christian woman” ain’t what it used to be.

  159. Dr. Faust

    Dr. Faust — You posted an image of Odin.

    I thought it would be funny. I don’t believe in Odin but all the talk about war made me think of that Odin meme.

  160. Sharrukin

    Dr. Faust

    I conveniently ignore parts of the bible I don’t understand as I’m sure you do. If not then why don’t you carry out animal sacrifice like the old testament calls for?

    Hebrews: 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
    15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
    16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
    17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
    18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

    Why do you even pretend to follow the bible? The Wiccan folks are a lot more flexible and cool these days, and they have more gods to choose from.

  161. Sharrukin

    Dr. Faust July 24, 2013 at 8:51 pm

    which denomination are you?

    I don’t believe in God. I was raised atheist, but I am agnostic.

  162. FuzzieWuzzie

    In the wake of all the dicussion about Feminist Hater, it does seem as if most of the single guys here have had to deal with depression over women. Put it all together, that’s a lot of damage.
    Given that society sweeps this under the rug, how does anyone recover?

  163. alcestiseshtemoa

    Good guest post, TSK. Anyhow, something relaxing for everybody here. Good night sleep.

  164. theshadowedknight

    Novaseeker, I beg to differ. The connection between aggression and eroticism is very clear. What do you think dominance is? It is the threat of violence restrained. Why do all of the women here report that spanking and hair pulling feel so good? It is dominant, violent, and erotic. Women want strength, and that is one of the ways they measure it.

    The facts are on my side. You are of the opinion that violence has no place, even if desired. I am not saying that men need to abuse and rape their wives, keeping them in a state of terror induced attraction. I am saying that a little bit of the beast can be used to make everyone happy.

    Margery, will you send me an email? I have some questions I want to ask for my next writing project. You have some perspectives I need to understand. [myusername] @ hotmail . com

    NSR, I really like that song. I am glad you put it up. For shock value alone, it is beyond worth. I cannot wait to pull that one out at work.

    SSM, I am a misanthropist myself, but men in general are just looking out for women. Why do you think we are all so eager for sex? For our own gratification? Nooo. We are trying to help all those poor women out there, just doing our duty in the trench… es. Trenches, yeah.

    Men are big sweethearts, doing the best we know how to help women. Yeah, we are all heart. Every man has an soft spot for women… which then becomes a hard spot for women, hey-oh!

    Fuzzie, the fury when you learn the truth helps. It is a hell of an anesthetic. Eventually, you have to fix yourself and pick up the pieces. Other men will help with that, which is what we are trying to do. If you hang onto your fury, it turns to hate, and it poisons the soul. You have to learn to let go.

    The Shadowed Knight

  165. Christina

    Any sensible parent of either sex, calms down and spells out the reason for the spanking, instead of flying off the handle and just punishing in a moment of anger. Your inability to distinguish the two — or, your assumption that only men do the former — is likely colored by your own bad experiences. Think about that.

    Yes…

    Where I do like the idea of not performing corporeal punishment on my son because of wanting to instill in him the ability to be an authoritative figure over a woman, it needs to be understood that ALL children (whether male or female) are to be submissive to BOTH parents (not just dad). The mother is also an authoritative figure over her children, whether male or female, and is just as responsible/required by God to discipline our children and raise them up in a God-fearing way. Where how I do that (as a wife) should be submissive to my husband’s desires in disciplining our children, I have just as much authority over my son as my husband does.

    My 4 year old and I actually talk about this a lot. I’m a parent, he is a child. It is my job to teach him. With needing to discipline his sister, he gets protective and we start that conversation in a way that isn’t revolving around HIS punishment. It also comes up when he is being bossy (which all 4 year olds are =p). He has a good grasp of the concept on a surface level because we have talked to him about it.

    SSM,
    I’m much like you, except no to lying (I prefer washing Satan out with soap…) and I would add the direct disobedience to things that either hurt others or could hurt themselves (like running into the street). I have also used spanking for violent temper-tantrums induced by time-outs. We went through a really bad phase where he knocked a shelf off his wall and broke 3 piggy banks that were given as baby-shower gifts. But this kinda falls in with my last reason for spanking – fear of his seriously harming himself.

  166. Novaseeker

    Novaseeker, I beg to differ. The connection between aggression and eroticism is very clear. What do you think dominance is? It is the threat of violence restrained. Why do all of the women here report that spanking and hair pulling feel so good? It is dominant, violent, and erotic. Women want strength, and that is one of the ways they measure it.

    The facts are on my side. You are of the opinion that violence has no place, even if desired. I am not saying that men need to abuse and rape their wives, keeping them in a state of terror induced attraction. I am saying that a little bit of the beast can be used to make everyone happy.

    When it is sexualized it is disordered. The human desire for something does not legitimize it morally.

  167. Learner

    [ssm: That would be curious to me, too. However, no woman here has said that she "needs" anything in particular to "feel submissive" to her husband, so I have no answer for you. As for spanking and hair-pulling in bed - while I don't need it, I sure do enjoy it on occasion.]

    I was referring to what was said in the original post.

  168. theshadowedknight

    How is it immoral? If it does not harm, in what way do you find it immoral? Please explain, because I fail to see the wrongdoing.

    The Shadowed Knight

  169. Dr. Faust

    How is it immoral? If it does not harm, in what way do you find it immoral? Please explain, because I fail to see the wrongdoing.

    I’m not sure what you’re referring to here. Are you talking about spanking a child?

  170. theshadowedknight

    Learner, wives do not need anything to be submissive to their husbands. They only need to make the decision, and it is done. Submission can be a response to dominance, but it can also be responsible for dominance. A wife can create a dominant husband by the act of submitting.

    I was using the hair pulling and spanking as an example of how dominating a woman is very sexually appealing to her. It is a symptom of her desire to submit. She is looking for strength in her man, and when she finds it, she enjoys it. It is a reward for her submission, not a requirement.

    The Shadowed Knight

  171. Dr. Faust

    But she spanked in rage. It came across as rejection, not justice. THAT”S what damaged you. That’s why you mix sex (acceptance) and BDSM (pain).

    It came off a violation of my will by someone who claimed to love me. It is the involuntary nature of the event which makes it immoral. An adult women can consent to be spanked by her husband. A child cannot consent to a spanking any more than they can consent to have sex.

    Our laws are put in place to counter the violation of someone’s will. Murder being the most severe crime it is the will to end another’s will. Rape being the will to choose one’s sexual partners. Each crime is measured in the context of consent and ones will.

  172. lgrobins

    Shadowed Knight,
    I’m with you on how is it immoral. So many of the blogs I follow always talk about how women don’t want “loving sex” and its true…if by that it is meant romance, flowers, tender touches, caresses, like something from sappy chick flick….No, the truth is a lot of women want it rough. If that makes them immoral, then a lot of women on this thread are immoral.

    [ssm: Indeed, and not only on this thread, but the vast majority of all women. And there is nothing in the Bible that says rough sex in not permitted for the married Christian couple. I suppose humiliation and serious violence could be considered as a husband not loving his wife as his own body. But that isn't what most of us here are talking about. Did any of you play-fight/wrestle with your siblings when you were younger? Mild consensual sexual aggression is like play fighting/wrestling for fun and shows who is the dominant one. If it's not lighthearted and fun, if it feels dark and evil and results in injury or humiliation, then I would say that is morally unacceptable because it violates God's Word. But enjoying a slap on the @$$ that accompanies a kiss? My conscience is clear.]

  173. Hipster Racist

    @Novaseeker

    How is rough sex, in marriage, immoral or disordered? Who said love is supposed to be soft and gentle? As for pain, it hurts to get tackled in football, a deep tissue massage can hurt, we say “no pain no gain” when exercising – are all these activities “disordered?” Some people like peppers and hot sauce so spicy it might be considered “torture” to some. Is that immoral or disordered?

    @Jeremy

    LOL at “cismarried.”

    What studies have been done have shown no correlation between childhood experiences (getting spanked, abuse) and BDSM-like behaviors. It’s simply wrong to assume getting spanked as a child makes someone sexually submissive, or that they would even enjoy it or not. There’s just no correlation. It’s easy to theorize but it’s just projection. I’m sure there are many people who were spanked as children and aren’t into BDSM-like behaviors, so why would the reverse be true?

  174. Dr. Faust

    What studies have been done have shown no correlation between childhood experiences (getting spanked, abuse) and BDSM-like behaviors. It’s simply wrong to assume getting spanked as a child makes someone sexually submissive, or that they would even enjoy it or not. There’s just no correlation. It’s easy to theorize but it’s just projection. I’m sure there are many people who were spanked as children and aren’t into BDSM-like behaviors, so why would the reverse be true?

    I agree that there is no conclusive evidence showing it but the nature of sexual imprinting is complex and difficult to find anything conclusive about it. What is known is that the majority of people in BDSM were spanked as children and some were abused as children. There is some good logical evidence to support the psychological impact of spanking leading to a submissive nature but underwhelming empirical evidence. It will depend on if you believe ANY theories of psychology or not. I would be happy to share with you my understanding of the connection between spanking and the mind if you like.

  175. theshadowedknight

    Faust, I was talking to Novaseeker.

    lgrobins, when I was on MMSL, there was a thread full of women complaining about how they thought that that kind of romantic sex was terrible. They ended up trying to get the men to tell them how to unleash the beast part of their husbands. I just about had a heart attack trying to get them to realize that it was a dangerous, foolish idea. Me and a couple of other men had to beat them with a verbal club to get them to accept it was not good. They wanted the savage and they wanted it like nothing else.

    Hipster, so many of the BDSM practitioners are damaged people, especially the women. It is unscientific to be sure, but look at all of the posts on overcoming past abuse. Many were abused or molested as children, and they are not all there. I do not know if it is correlation or causation, but the link is there.

    The Shadowed Knight

  176. Sharrukin

    Dr. Faust July 24, 2013 at 10:00 pm

    It came off a violation of my will by someone who claimed to love me. It is the involuntary nature of the event which makes it immoral.

    Children are under the authority of adults and most of what they do is involuntary. An all candy and sweets diet sounds perfectly acceptable to them, but the man is just keepin the children down, and even makes them eat their broccoli…against their will!! They are made to wear clothes. They are forced into learning how to spell. They are even forced to go to sleep when dictated. When will these injustices end?

    [ssm: And don't get me started on the evils of toilet training! Having to sit on that cold porcelain when sitting in one's own warm squishiness is so much more pleasant. Will the atrocities never stop?]

  177. Dr. Faust

    “Children are under the authority of adults and most of what they do is involuntary. An all candy and sweets diet sounds perfectly acceptable to them, but the man is just keepin the children down, and even makes them eat their broccoli…against their will!! They are made to wear clothes. They are forced into learning how to spell. They are even forced to go to sleep when dictated. When will these injustices end?”

    And the adult is under greater responsibility not to abuse that power since the power of decision making and consent is advocated to the adult. The only recourse is to operate under the presumption of what the child would do if he could consent. Knowingly feeding your child sweets is another form of abuse since it is reasonable to assume that if the child knew the full effect of his decisions he would not choose to eat the sweets. The child has not developed a sufficient amount of understanding into cause and effect to be able to predict what their choices mean.

  178. Dr. Faust

    Furthermore, it’s hypocritical to pass moral judgements on a child by punishing them with a greater offense than the presumed crime committed. If a child hits his sister hitting the child will not teach him that violence is irreproachable. It only teaches him that violence is appropriate when he holds power over someone. By claiming to reprimand him for committing violence by using violence the adult becomes a hypocrite. The hypocrite exempts himself from his own moral judgements. I am above the law, he says. My own laws as well. But expects other to follow them. In the cast of the the child and parent relationship, the more intelligent and developed of the two is LESS MORAL and the child is expected to be MORE MORAL. The parent who spanks does not believe in their own morality. If the parent can’t believe in nonviolence why do we expect a child to?

  179. lgrobins

    Another thought–if it is immoral how do we force women back down the moral path of romantic, tender sex? Rough sex is a bit like red pill in itself…once its had there is no going back.
    Are there any bible verses prohibiting rough sex?

    [ssm: Not between married couples. I've looked. Does anyone know if there is anything in Catholic doctrine that prohibits mild consensual sexual aggression (spanking and the like)? I'm not Catholic, but so much of their doctrine is so very sensible that I find myself consulting Catholic sources when I am unsure about anything and can't find a clear answer in the Bible.]

  180. nightskyradio

    vR – I was originally going to add a line about some of those in the first group possibly being so sensitive that a childhood spanking broke their spirit, but I think you’re right – there is a separate third group.

    TSK – really like that song. I am glad you put it up. For shock value alone, it is beyond worth. I cannot wait to pull that one out at work.

    Is that a pun?

  181. Sharrukin

    Dr. Faust

    It only teaches him that violence is appropriate when he holds power over someone.

    No it teaches him that there are real world consequences to his actions. He is not allowed to act in a violent manner towards others and expect to receive nothing but admonishments.

    By claiming to reprimand him for committing violence by using violence the adult becomes a hypocrite. The hypocrite exempts himself from his own moral judgements. I am above the law, he says. My own laws as well. But expects other to follow them.

    Pacifism isn’t the lesson being taught.

    Justice and reciprocity are part of the lesson as well as self-restraint. Punishment is the result of certain inappropriate actions. It is simply negative reinforcement just as being told to stand in the corner is or a time out. You conflate spanking with violence and they are not the same thing.

    If the parent can’t believe in nonviolence why do we expect a child to?

    I don’t want any child of mine to believe in nonviolence. I want them to believe that there are things in this world worth fighting for and things worth killing for. I want them to respect themselves enough to stand up for who they are and what they believe in and to act when others are threatened with real harm. Sometimes that means they must act in a violent manner.

    [ssm: Readers, isn't it odd how an agnostic such as Sharrukin is so much more in line with what the Bible actually says than many people who claim the name of Christ? I hope I live to see the day when squishy "Christians" are either truly converted or are purged from the faith.]

  182. Hipster Racist

    If you’re talking about the “BDSM community” remember, they are as much about “polyamory” and exhibitionism as actual bdsm-like behavior. Also, you could almost take anything and find women talking about over coming abuse. Real abuse is far too common, and non-abused women are encouraged to find something to label abusive anyway.

    If we’re going to be unscientific, some of the most sub and masochistic girls I’ve ever known were never abused and never even spanked.

    BDSM-like behavior is far, far more common than people think because most people don’t want to make their sex lives a topic of public discussion, even online. The public “BDSM community” is just completely unrepresentative of BDSM itself.

    I didn’t even know it was “BDSM” for a long time. I just thought it was normal.

  183. nightskyradio

    Hipster Racist – @Jeremy

    LOL at “cismarried.”

    That was me. Jeremy is surely too classy for that kind of low humor. Unfortunately for me, I’m not.

    [ssm: Which is why we love you. :) ]

  184. theshadowedknight

    NSR, no. Did you not see the earlier post? Pulling out would be a cruel and irresponsible thing for a man to do. How could he possibly be so heartless as to intentionally deprive women. A man so base and low is hardly worth calling a man. No, I am looking forward to seeing the reaction to the song. That is all.

    Sharrukin is correct. In the words of Generation Kill, “War is the motherf*cking answer!” Violence solves problems. Look at the Mongols, and there is an idea; run some Ghengis Khan Game.

    The Shadowed Knight

  185. Sharrukin

    theshadowedknight

    Sharrukin is correct. In the words of Generation Kill, “War is the motherf*cking answer!” Violence solves problems. Look at the Mongols, and there is an idea; run some Ghengis Khan Game.

    Heh

    I don’t think I would go quite that far. Ghengis acquired his ethical understanding of the world from a different place than the rest of us.

  186. van Rooinek

    It came off a violation of my will by someone who claimed to love me. It is the involuntary nature of the event which makes it immoral….Our laws are put in place to counter the violation of someone’s will

    To a point, yes… but… parents must have the right to violate their childrens’ will in certain circumstances as the nature of the job absolutely requires it. To wit:
    Eat your vegetables!
    Do your homework!
    Don’t run out into the street!
    Back home by 10!
    etc.

    Furthermore, policemen have the right, indeed duty, to violate adults’ will when necessary for the job:
    Drop the weapon!
    Step out of the car!
    Hands over your head!

    So the right to avoid having one’s will violated, is not absolute. The government does it to adults (not always rightly, alas, but there are SOME times that it’s legit), and parents MUST have the right to violate childrens’ will, and… ENFORCE it somehow.

  187. Anonymoose

    Novaseeker,

    “… Loving sex is not violent, loving relationships are not violent, even if the violence is consensual.”

    You are assuming equivalences that do not exist.

    It is really not possible to talk about such things without first defining terms and specifying contexts. Otherwise, you end up having one of those debates, like the ones about “capitalism”, in which no one is talking about the same thing. But once everyone is speaking the same language, and actually using the same words in the same way, many differences and disputes vanish.

    Violence, as in a dark alley, and consensual “violence”, are completely different. Physical dominance is not the same thing as a weak man not being able to control himself. It is also not the self-indulgence of a sadist, and as has been discussed here before, forcing themselves on an actually unwilling woman is NOT a fantasy of men.

    Instead, what we are taking about here is the physical reassurance that a woman often needs, to verify that her man actually is in charge, and not that she is merely allowing him to be in charge.

    Also, a woman’s butt can take way more, without injury, than most people imagine, and the biggest complaint, by far, that women have about receiving a spanking is that it was not intense or thorough enough, which makes them feel that their men are fakes or wimps, and leaves them frustrated, sexually and otherwise.

    As long as a man has common sense, and does a bit of research, physical injury should not be an issue. Psychological injury should also not be an issue, because if your woman is emotionally vulnerable in this regard, you should be going in a different direction altogether.

    On a different topic, if Dr. Faust wants to accomplish more than just venting, he needs to start sharply delineating contexts. I can think of different situations in which the same actions can be perceived or experienced or have the effect of 1) abuse, 2) betrayal, or 3) nothing much at all.

    Also, notice that “What is known is that the majority of people in BDSM were spanked as children” does NOT imply “What is known is that the majority of people who were spanked as children ended up in BDSM”.

  188. theshadowedknight

    Hipster, true, the BDSM “Community” tends towards the craziest members anyway. I will take you at your word.

    The thing is, Faust, that not all spanking or physical punishment is abuse. It is necessary, because when you hit somebody as an adult, you are going to be subject to force. It depends on the way it is used. You cannot paint it all with the same brush.

    What is needed, lgrobins, is a book on Christian masculine domination. “The Care and Beating of Wives” How does that sound? We could make a fortune, what with 50SoG selling millions of copies.

    The Shadowed Knight

  189. lgrobins

    There does need to be more books on Christian male dominance. Samuel Solomon’s books capture the dynamic nicely. Gentle and subtle, but the dominance themes are clear to anyone perceptive. I wish his books were more mainstream. “The Altar” makes “Fireproof” look so pathetic.

  190. donalgraeme

    [ssm: Not between married couples. I've looked. Does anyone know if there is anything in Catholic doctrine that prohibits mild consensual sexual aggression (spanking and the like)? I'm not Catholic, but so much of their doctrine is so very sensible that I find myself consulting Catholic sources when I am unsure about anything and can't find a clear answer in the Bible.]

    Most Catholic teaching and doctrine with regards to sex focuses on the unitive and procreative aspects of sex. Which means that you don’t use contraceptives of any kind (or pull out), and you don’t engage in sodomy. Otherwise, it tends to leave the individual methods of lovemaking to married couples to find out.

  191. donalgraeme

    There is a website by the name of For Your Marriage which is geared towards Catholic marriages sponsored by the US Conference of Catholic Bishops.
    http://www.foryourmarriage.org/
    It explains a lot about Catholic teachings on marriage, and I sometimes go there to find out about certain teachings. Unfortunately, bad theology shows up there from time to time (like mutual submission). I wrote a blog a while back critiquing the site.

  192. Dr. Faust

    No it teaches him that there are real world consequences to his actions. He is not allowed to act in a violent manner towards others and expect to receive nothing but admonishments.

    I understand that your argument is that you supplant harsh real-world consequences for contrived and controlled consequences and that you feel spanking creates a direct, unignorable consequence for the child so that they’ll learn these consequences. However, given that there are hundreds of nonviolent alternatives to spanking, and that I’ve made links available to the permanent damage that spanking causes on a child’s development, why do you find it impossible to attempt these other alternatives?

    Pacifism isn’t the lesson being taught.

    You’re right. Spanking isn’t about teaching pacism. It teaches children to abuse the power that they have. It teaches them submission to those with power. It teaches them the hypocrisy of their elders who claim moral absolutism but cannot follow their own moral judgements. If you strike someone for striking someone you are a hypocrite. This is not deniable or negotiable.

    The underlying moral principle of your argument is this. The initiation of violence is wrong. BUT YOU DON”T FOLLOW YOUR OWN RULE. By definition you are a hypocrite. You do not believe in your own moral law since if you did believe in it, you would follow it.

    The point is not pacifism but to avoid the initiation of force.

    Justice and reciprocity are part of the lesson as well as self-restraint. Punishment is the result of certain inappropriate actions. It is simply negative reinforcement just as being told to stand in the corner is or a time out. You conflate spanking with violence and they are not the same thing.

    Again we return to the hypocrisy of your moral judgements. You claim inappropriate actions. So then by your statement, anyone who claims power over you is justified in hitting you. It’s possible I’m bigger, stronger, and smarter than you just as you are smarter and stronger than a child. By your morality I am permitted to hit you because I hold power over you. I am however not allowed to be struck back because I exempt myself from my own moral judgments. You are not allowed to hit. I am allowed to hit.

    Likewise, you admit that there are alternative options to spanking but choose to not use them.

    I don’t want any child of mine to believe in nonviolence. I want them to believe that there are things in this world worth fighting for and things worth killing for. I want them to respect themselves enough to stand up for who they are and what they believe in and to act when others are threatened with real harm. Sometimes that means they must act in a violent manner.

    I do not advocate pacifism. I advocate the NAP, the non-aggression principle, abstaining from the initiation of force. I do not support pacifism or a total renunciation of violence and that is not what is implied in not spanking your children. It is fundamentally a moral issue since you are called to be MORE moral than your children and yet you act consistently LESS MORAL than your children.

    Spanking causes life-long permanent trauma. Unlike you I am willing to cede that spanking causes no harm and is an acceptable form of punishment so long as you refute the evidence posted above in the video The Truth About Spanking. I made a link to it above.

    I have a question for you though. What evidence are you willing to accept that spanking is both immoral and unnecessary? If your answer is ‘none’ then consider our conversation over.

  193. van Rooinek

    What is known is that the majority of people in BDSM were spanked as children” does NOT imply “What is known is that the majority of people who were spanked as children ended up in BDSM

    Indeed. The majority of people in ALL PEOPLE were spanked as children, whether they grew up to go into BDSM or not. I was certainly spanked, yet I loathe the very idea of BDSM. Or at least the DSM part.

  194. van Rooinek

    What evidence are you willing to accept that spanking is both immoral and unnecessary?

    You would need to somehow overturn thousands of years of accumulated civilizational experience, which has been validated by my own personal experiences and my eyewitness observations of other spanking and nonspanking families and their outcomes..

    Several millennia’s worth of repeated proof, validated by my own eyewitness observations, cannot be overcome by a few biased studies by mentally ill academics who are either psychologically unable, or ideologically unwilling, to distinguish between rational spanking and violent abuse.

    If your answer is ‘none’ then consider our conversation over.

    Since you’ve already been proved wrong beyond all doubt, the answer is indeed “none” and the conversation is indeed over.

    And when you have kids of your own, you WILL retract all this.

  195. Sharrukin

    Dr. Faust

    I’ve made links available to the permanent damage that spanking causes on a child’s development, why do you find it impossible to attempt these other alternatives?

    I doubt the damage that they claim. I see a lot of poorly behaved children and spanking is on the decline. If what they claim was true you would have seen more poorly behaved children and adults in previous decades and we see precisely the reverse. It is getting worse, not better.

    First I don’t believe those alternative work very well. I have encountered the children of those who raise children in that manner and they are very poorly behaved. In one case the child was publically screaming at her mother calling her names (bitch, etc) and demanding candy. I imagine that they can work with some children, but every child is different and what works with one won’t work with the other.

    It teaches them the hypocrisy of their elders who claim moral absolutism but cannot follow their own moral judgements. If you strike someone for striking someone you are a hypocrite. This is not deniable or negotiable.

    On the contrary, the moral judgment is that those who harm others without just cause should be punished and that is being reinforced. That isn’t the moral judgment YOU want taught, but it is the correct one. You want nonviolence taught as a principle which I find to be morally repugnant.

    The underlying moral principle of your argument is this. The initiation of violence is wrong.

    No, that isn’t the underlying moral principle. I am not in the ‘violence is always wrong’ camp. Sometimes violence is justified, but hitting your sibling isn’t one of those occassions and the child knows that.

    The initiation of violence can sometimes be the right thing to do. A great deal depends on the exact situation.

    By your morality I am permitted to hit you because I hold power over you. I am however not allowed to be struck back because I exempt myself from my own moral judgments. You are not allowed to hit. I am allowed to hit.

    Children are not adults. They are not my equal and their judgments and wants are not on the same level playing field.

    Between adults, if I attack someone else with intent to do harm then they are fully justified in retaliating for that attack. It has nothing to do with power granting a moral fiat, but rather that justice should be served. Violence can and is put in the service of justice. The knowledge of when violence is justified is important for a child to know.

    It is fundamentally a moral issue since you are called to be MORE moral than your children and yet you act consistently LESS MORAL than your children.

    You consider spanking immoral.

    I don’t.

    What evidence are you willing to accept that spanking is both immoral and unnecessary?

    Since spanking has been around for a very long time and the historical evidence is enormous that it works and has worked for generations of well adjusted, well behaved individuals I would say that the hurdle is significant.

  196. van Rooinek

    vR… I don’t know what SV looks like, but Alte and Elspeth and SSM are hot… and if we’re already in hell anyway, nothing left to lose…

    donalgraeme…. This is Hell we are talking about vR, HELL. The Pit. Gehenna. The place where the beer bottles have holes… and the women don’t

    Well, of course the beer bottles have holes. How else could you drink out of them?

    And the women don’t? Does this mean that they can’t talk?

  197. Sharrukin

    Dr. Faust

    I’ve made links available to the permanent damage that spanking causes

    OK, explain the 1950s and 60s?

    Your links claim increased violence and sexual deviancy as a result of spanking which given the almost universal use of spanking in those decades would lead one to believe that they were an era of extreme violence and sexual deviancy.

    A meta-analysis of spanking studies conducted by Gershoff found 93 percent agreement among studies that spanking can lead to such problems as delinquent and anti-social behavior in childhood along with aggression, criminal and anti-social behavior and spousal or child abuse as an adult.

    That would more accurately describe our own era.

    The claimed results seem to be the exact opposite of what those ‘experts’ suggest.

  198. Sharrukin

    Dr. Faust

    And a link for you which speaks directly to the author Murray Straus at one of your links. His methodology is very suspect.

    Simons and his colleagues summarized the criticisms of the antispanking studies done by Straus and others: “Critics have noted that most of these studies suffer from serious methodological limitations that preclude firm conclusions. The difficulties most often cited relate to sampling, measurement, and failure to utilize control groups.” Their own study showed that the level of parental support and involvement with children, not corporal punishment, predicted negative outcomes. “Once the effect of parental involvement was removed, corporal punishment showed no detrimental impact on adolescent aggressiveness, delinquency, or psychological well-being.”

    http://www.todaysfamilynews.ca/tfn/family/articles/BumRap.html

  199. Sharrukin

    [ssm: Readers, isn't it odd how an agnostic such as Sharrukin is so much more in line with what the Bible actually says than many people who claim the name of Christ? I hope I live to see the day when squishy "Christians" are either truly converted or are purged from the faith.]

    Even the devil can quote Scripture!

    I was raised by atheist parents with a mother who hated the Catholic Church. It was odd because she was Catholic in all but name, which took me some years to realize. I have a great deal of respect for Christians, particularly those who actually believe in their faith. Those who just use it as a cloak of respectability I have a lot less respect for. Not having been alienated from Christianity I just never had the hostility that other non-believers frequently display.

    What I have come to realize is that society needs a unifying moral code and for the west that is Christianity. It has been remarkably successful and as we drift away from it, we increasingly weaken and fragment. I had never read the bible until the age of seventeen when some lady in a Christian book store gave me a rather expensive bible. I was taken aback at the generosity and the book itself was very interesting. I can’t say that I much cared for the forgiveness parts of the bible, but its moral code was superior to all of the others.

  200. Legion

    Christina July 24, 2013 at 3:08 pm

    When my son was in diapers and in ‘kidland’ I would spank his bottom just to snap him out of it because he did not hear a word I said. Some hitting on the hand or spanking for a young child? Sure. I was strapped with a belt at times and I haven’t turned out to be a violent criminal.

    The best story though is when I was in Texas. Two friends from civil war reenacting were in their late teens. They described how their father would lecture them for an hour when they were in trouble. They longed for the days when they got hit and it was over quick.

    Bottom line: Younger children respond better to spanking. It’s hard to reason with them. I found it more useful to emphasize what I said with a spank or a slap on the hand when he was young.

    Good luck when he gets older. My threats were always believable.

  201. Learner

    TSK,
    First, the desire to have your hair pulled or be spanked may be a symptom of the desire for submission (And I agree with you on this point, I do think that is true), however eating entire cake could also be said to be a symptom of hunger. A behavior being a symptom of something doesn’t make it automatically a good thing. Symptoms of good desires can become twisted, just like my whole cake example. Just because “everybody does it”or desires it doesn’t make something good or right, let alone righteous. As Christians we are called to moderate our desires, not wallow in them.

    For the Christian, submission of a wife to her husband is supposed to mirror the submission of the church to Jesus Christ. Are you saying the submission of the church to Christ is out of fear of violence from Christ? Are you saying Christ needs to periodically inflict a little bit of fear or pain on His church to keep us in submission to him or to make us feel good or excited about our submission to him?

    Years ago Kim at the “Equal but different” blog wrote about this subject…I will see if I can find the link and post it.

  202. Ton

    Drawing a blank on the name but what’s his face, the guy who worked 7 years for his wife, only to end up marrying her sister instead….. think about what that implies. He didn’t even know which chick he was banging on his wedding night. How tender etc was that? Nor was it counted as sin.

    Fact is the Bible says nothing about rough sex being against.the rules and the Old Testament covers what is and is not allowed sexually extensively.

    Rough sex is dangerous though, if you consider your girl following you around like a puppy dog for a day or two problematic.

    I’m wondering if the men who recoil at the idea their women wants shoved on to the bed and used like she is owned aren’t meant to carry their genes to far into the future. Maybe it’s God’s way of saying that genetic product line is nearing its production run, because I doubt his ancestors had any such problems

  203. Ton

    Well their is a hell, and Christ tells folks they don’t want to go there. That’s a scare tactic. Same for the way Christ is going to be when He returns. We are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, to fear the Lord, that fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom…… Oh yea the Alimghty is one scary heavenly being. He destroyed the world once, promises to do so again, killed a man for touching the Arc, demanded genocide of people already living in the promise land, has sent plagues, killed the 1st born of Egypt….. and you know the list goes on

    So yes husbands and earthly fathers need to be loving and scary; it’s best if a man can be loved and feared, but if he can only be one, it’s best if he’s feared. Read that in a fairly famous book written by this supposedly evil minded long dead eye-talion dude.

  204. Sigyn

    Hi again, Dr. Faust. I remember you from over at Vox’s.

    Doc, you keep using the word “immoral”. What standard are you using for this determination? What makes spanking, or any act at all, immoral?

  205. Hannah

    Ton your girl is a keeper! Outstanding :)
    (Jacob was tricked by his Uncle Laban and married Leah instead of Rachel but you knew that…. we just read it to the children before bed tonight!)

    Dr Faust – we can’t pick and choose from the Bible to create our own God. We must believe in the entirety of the Word whether we can understand it all or not. Many of the things of God are beyond our understanding. That is the God we serve. The same God that humbled Himself to walk this earth as a man to die for our sins is the God who commanded the children of Israel to take vengeance on the Midianites killing everyone except female virgins.
    The one true God is the God of Israel. He is Omnipotent, Powerful, Awesome, the great I AM.
    Proverbs 9:10
    “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom”

    As an agnostic I was totally against smacking and convinced it was wrong.
    Whatever moral code you subscribe to in your own brain – there’s ‘evidence’ to support it – just a Google click away. (I tried to prove that the ‘rod’ was figurative!) Doesn’t make it right. Just look at the homosexual ‘Christian’ community for an example.
    Proverbs 14:12
    “There is a way that seems right to a man,
    But its end is the way of death.”
    The only instructions you need are found in the Bible.
    Proverbs 13:24
    “Whoever spares the rod hates his son,
    but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him.”

    Feminist Hater – don’t exit this world on your own terms. That is not for you to decide. The Almighty God has ordained your days on earth and He knit you together in your mother’s womb for such a time as this. As Miserman so thoughtfully expressed – life has meaning.
    Who are we that we should waggle our finger at God and curse the day He made us?
    He has a purpose for you man – don’t waste it.

    The Shadowed Knight – nice piece :)

  206. earl

    “Drawing a blank on the name but what’s his face, the guy who worked 7 years for his wife, only to end up marrying her sister instead….. think about what that implies. He didn’t even know which chick he was banging on his wedding night.”

    Joseph…then he had to work for her dad 7 more years before he got the chick he wanted. 14 years of oneitis.

    Men use violence to get power and resources…women use sex. Seems to me violence = sex.

    Everybody seems to think violence = physical…that is only a small part of it. I take violence as a way of stating dominance. You are violent when you disagree with somebody…you are violent when you put your muscles through hell at the gym…you are violent when you stand your ground.

    It is better to be respected (feared) than loved when it comes to being a man.

  207. Sigyn

    Drawing a blank on the name but what’s his face, the guy who worked 7 years for his wife, only to end up marrying her sister instead….. think about what that implies. He didn’t even know which chick he was banging on his wedding night.

    Jacob. I’ve been thinking about that one, and it occurs to me he’d have been completely within his rights to call the whole thing off. He probably should have, too, but he had such bad oneitis for Rachel (who lied to him repeatedly and later traded sex with him for a snack, how lame is that?)…

  208. Miserman

    Here is a funny commercial about out of control children. It advertises condoms, but it also reveals a father who lacks any sort of will or perhaps even legal authority to use corporal punishment as a means of discipline.

  209. Hannah

    Miserman – I was moved by your comment earlier describing your situation.
    Your words display strength of character and I hope you are shown kindness by people in your life.

    Blessings in Yeshua – Hannah

  210. Hannah

    Sign, isn’t it interesting though that Jacob fathered the 12 tribes of Israel…. This includes the son’s by Leah.
    Interesting how things pan out!
    Similarly the story of Jacob’s son Judah being ‘tricked’ into having sex with his dead son’s wife in order for his son’s line to continue. Which ends up being the royal bloodline of the Messiah?!

    The Lord surely works in mysterious ways.

  211. Hannah

    hehehe :) I am reminded of Reb Tevye from Fiddler on the Roof ….

    ‘On the OTHER hand’!

  212. Miserman

    @Hannah

    Thank you for your kind words. I usually avoid such speeches because I feel like I’m dumping my problems on someone else, like dumping a chamber pot in someone’s lap. However, sometimes, an abstract intellectual concept has little power in encouraging the discouraged.

  213. Sigyn

    Sign, isn’t it interesting though that Jacob fathered the 12 tribes of Israel…. This includes the son’s by Leah.
    Interesting how things pan out!

    What I find of particular interest is that Judah and Levi were both Leah’s sons–the kings and the priests.

  214. Je Suis Prest

    @ FuzzieWuzzie

    I’m sorry to hear about the phone call. I hope today goes better and that you find someone worthy of you to fill your dance card.

  215. earl

    “The Lord surely works in mysterious ways.”

    I’m still trying to figure out how the Lord is working through this toxic sewage of a society. But I like looking for buried treasure.

  216. Ton

    She might be Hannah, we are oddly compatible

    Thanks y’all for filling that gap in my knowledge. I think the story is important on many levels

  217. Je Suis Prest

    @ Miserman

    Thank you for sharing your story. Choosing to live and find happiness despite one’s circumstances takes a certain kind of courage and I commend you for that. It sounds live you are very much an example of perseverance and an encouragement to those around you!

    God Bless.

  218. Je Suis Prest

    @ Ton

    Your lady sounds lovely and quite content with her lot. I wish both of you the best.

  219. Je Suis Prest

    @ TSK

    You’ve been in fine form over the past two days. Your post was well written and thoughtful; I thoroughly enjoyed reading it. I can definitely attest to, “Alone, she has a deep seated fear and insecurity, longing for a man of her own, one who will protect her and provide for her needs,” although, I would add to it that she will also have a strong desire to please someone stronger than herself. Without a strong man to guide her, many women try and fill this desire by acting in ways that are pleasing to influential societal forces, which are obviously detrimental within our current cultural construct. I think some of the dysfunction in our society can be attributed to women doing things to earn a “well done” or “good girl” from someone more powerful than herself…

  220. Elspeth

    On the one hand, I agree with Learner and Novaseeker. We have to be very careful not to conflate what human beings desire naturally with what is good and right since we are all sinners and somewhat depraved by, well…nature.

    Secondly, we should keep in mind throughout much of human history, couples were not as inclined to discuss whether or not they enjoyed spanking, hair-pulling, etc. Whether they did or not was their business and so long as there was no adultery, birth control, bestiality, etc. no one cared or questioned it. For all we know, couples were into all kinds of things. It’s only been as men have allowed women to cow them into being more soft and sensitive that this has become the kind of thing openly discussed. And it’s being discussed primarily because as it turns out, women don’t really want a man that’s too sensitive, no matter what they say.

    Lastly, and I know I’m probably opening a can of worms if that’s even possible here, I’m not deathly afraid of my husband (I know he’d lay down his life for me rather than hurt me). However, I do find him slightly intimidating. I give pause and think before I allow my mouth to just shoot off any old sassy or disrespectful thought that pops into it. I weigh my words and speak with respect and measured tone.That’s a good thing.

    That bit of feeling slightly off balance heightens eroticism in a relationship, at least in my experience.

  221. Elspeth

    One more thing before I take my leave. On violence.

    I don’t think anyone here was advocating that senseless violence is acceptable of even sexy. I’m married to a man who was known for being one other men thought twice about before they messed with him. He was not a violent man nor a criminal, but he could and would defend himself, his woman, and those too weak to defend themselves.

    He willingly admits that he was a young man with a lot of anger who often welcomed the opportunity to let that aggression out on a deserving character. But he was also known as a fair, honest, a hard working, and a live and let live type of guy. And that was before he came to faith.

    That a man can take a punch or is willing to throw one if necessary doesn’t mean he is violent in the criminal sense or even a sinful one. Most sane women would find a murderer, terrorist, or some other such man reprehensible, because such men are reprehensible. They are not fit for marriage, fatherhood, or the kingdom of God.

    I suspect that what we have here is people talking past one another because both sides of the argument contain partial truths.

  222. Elspeth

    Last thought: Christians are called to “turn the other cheek” and not live by the sword. I suspect at some point in the future we’ll all get our chance to have our faith tested in that way.

  223. tbc

    @Faust – you talk of slavery to God as if it were a bad thing. The truth is, we’re all slaves to what we obey — either to the flesh to fulfill the lusts thereof, or to the Spirit of God. Spanking isn’t pleasant for the child (and shouldn’t be for the parent), but NO discipline ever seems pleasant at the time. Whether that is the discipline of a spanking or the discipline of rising early to work out and restricting one’s diet. And whether we like it or not, governmental power does not bear the sword in vain.

    Violence, or the potential for violence, is reality in the ordering of human affairs. All of us live in nations that will, if needed, employ overwhelming violence to ensure order and stability and that they do so is not questioned. It is only the exercise of power in the domestic sphere that is questioned or held to be suspect. Why is that? Because when parental and specifically fatherly authority is undermined (which is the crux of anti-spanking brigades), disorder reigns and the state becomes the sole arbiter of morality. Someone will do the spanking – - either the mother and father in the home, or the police office with the baton. And at the end of it all God will inflict violence. It is necessary; as justice demands the punishment of the unrighteous. Every child molester that thought she got away, every lynch mob, ever mass murderer, every slaver, every abuser will find himself or herself face to face to God who spanks, not with a belt, but with a sword. I too would be subject to such a punishment but for the forgiveness offered through the violent death of his own self on the cross.

    Sharr- I appreciate your honesty as an agnostic. I encourage you to reconsider the forgiveness bit in the Bible. It’s the meat of the whole thing.

  224. Phaedra

    @ Elspeth

    Whether they did or not was their business and so long as there was no adultery, birth control, bestiality, etc. no one cared or questioned it.

    Um, no. People used birth control from the beginning of time, and they greatly desired it. Also, birth control is not evil, it is practiced by many couples who want to limit their family size (not everybody wants or can afford a litter of kids).

  225. Elspeth

    Phaedra:

    I am not in the “all birth control is a sin” camp. I think it is questionable (and that hormonal birth control is unconscionable), but there’s a reason we only have 5 kids. I always conceived within 2 months of a concerted effort to conceive. we did the math and spaced our children. Well, some of them.

    That said, throughout Christian history, birth control was considered sinful. In many Christian traditions, it still is considered a sin. Since we were discussing whether a preference for more dominant, rough sex in marriage is sinful, I think it was completely relevant to include birth control on the list of things the church taught about sexuality in marriage.

    You personal opinion (or mine) had no bearing on the comment I posted.

  226. Phaedra

    Regarding the article—I wonder what quantity of semen would be necessary to actually make a difference (just that sentence has me rofl)

  227. earl

    “Regarding the article—I wonder what quantity of semen would be necessary to actually make a difference”

    Time to have a control experiment.

  228. Martel

    @ Ton: There’s a LOT to the Jacob/Leah/Rachel triangle. Jacob always preferred Rachel, even though she almost got him killed for sneaking out her dad’s idols. Leah is a great guide for women who have husbands who don’t appreciate them, and Rachel is in many ways the template for hot women without much character. As you read it, notice the details, all of which have far more to say than initially meets the eye.

    Genesis is downright FULL of red pill wisdom. Dinah’s rape, Joseph being falsely accused of rape (interesting that they’re brother and sister), Judah & Tamar (mentioned above), Joseph’s economic policies in Egypt, the Abraham/Sara/Hagar triangle, and countless other incidents illustrate the principles of human nature better than anything written before or since.

    If I had the time, I’d love to write a book on the red pill wisdom of Genesis. I have it outlined already, but time is lacking at present. God willing, someday I’ll have it.

  229. theshadowedknight

    Learner, God absolutely becomes violent when needed. Sodom, Gomorrah, the Philistines, Egypt, the Flood, the Temple, and even His defiance of the Adversary in the desert. Disobedience and sin will earn a trip to Hell.

    Violence takes many forms, not all are immoral. Where, in the Bible or in other Church law, does it state that a measured use of force is prohibited sexually? If you cannot show the proscription, you are talking from your own thoughts and feelings.

    You want an example of healthy violence, look at SSM. If you want an example of taking to an immoral extent, look at the community of BDSM. One had a slice of cake, the other is sitting in the bakery stuffing their faces. The difference is extent, and overindulgence.

    Hannah, JSP, thanks for that. I am glad you enjoyed it.

    JSP, women submit, one way or another, to the most dominant force around them. That should be her father, then her husband, but with so many unmarried women floating around, it end up as the culture as a whole. She is trying to get in with the winner. Submission as an invitation to be protected, and to be cared for. These women are just scared little girls looking for some man to commit to them and save them.

    Elspeth, the slight edge of danger is one of the bits I was trying to raise. Feelings of slight intimidation are a way you measure his strength. It is sexy because he is strong and powerful.

    I am not saying that because it feels good, it is good. The structure fits within the biblical structure of marriage. If a woman enjoys harmless spanking, why deny her? If not, then that is fine, too. It is up to the husband and wife to talk about it and meet their needs. If she wants to do something like sex in public, that is obviously over the line, and he needs to put his foot down.

    Phaedra, just to be on the safe side, as much as possible. It is important that women be kept in the best health.

    The Shadowed Knight

  230. donalgraeme

    @ Martel

    You are right about how Genesis is chock full of the truth about human nature. And yet that book is also the one which many Christians throw out first when it comes to ignoring the Bible. I do not think that this is a coincidence.

  231. Martel

    @ donal: Good point. There are commandments in Geneisi (the Noahide code, etc), but I find it to be less a description of what should be and more a dead-on assessment of what is and what works.

    Abraham evolves into a great man after some initial stumbles. His willingness to sacrifice his son is heart-wrenching, and God not making him actually go through with it demonstrates His grace as succinctly as anything. I would argue that that averted sacrifice is the single most important moment in human history before the arrival of Christ. It’s the perfect foreshadowing of Christ’s sacrifice and demonstrates God’s love for us as individuals. It has both moral and political implications that echo throughout the rest of the Bible and Western Civilization (when it’s been healthy).

    God spared Abraham the grief of sacrificing his own son, but He loved us enough to not spare Himself the same grief. That says a lot.

  232. Ton

    Thank you JSP, just remember I have a big heart, large appetite and a spare bedroom……

    Elspeth, all the girls I have dated mention I intimidate them/ people. That’s coupled with the parts of my personality others rarely see is the long term tingle perpetuater. I think and long term loosely defined

    We are called to turn the other check, which impiles a minor infraction/ assault and nothing serious. Folks make a case about Christ referring to court cases and the like not physcial attacks. Which makes sense when you think about avengers of blood and sanctuary cities in the Old Testament. Christ came to bring a sword and commands men to sell their second set of clothes to buy a sword, which was the offensive weapon of choice

  233. Ton

    Is it the quantity or the quality of semen…. some of us being more potent then others

    violence is a tool and no more or less moral then a hammer.

  234. Just Saying

    ” good luck trying to convince women to let men ejaculate into them”

    Women want what they shouldn’t, and if you ask them they will give the “correct” response, but you have to look at their actions for the truth. I never “ask”, I just do. And it’s interesting, I’ve never had a woman really respond negatively afterward. I have had them tell me “that’s the first time anyone’s ever c*m in me”. Now I tend to like the company of young women, but more than a few have steady boyfriends who kow-tow to what they “say”. More than a few will demand a condom, and when I tell them – no, I’ll take a pass, they change their tune. “Well maybe this once, but you have to promise not to c*m in me.” Sure, I’ll promise…

    When I was younger, I would tell them, “I’m going to c*m” and they would lock their legs around me tightly pulling me into them while saying, “You can’t c*m in me.” It was very confusing, if I listened to what they said, rather than what they did. So I do what they want. Now that I’m older, I take control. I don’t make any pretense. I just hold them to me tightly when the moment comes and don’t let them go till I am done. If it’s the first time with them, I will apologize and tell them I just couldn’t stop because I needed them so much. For some reason, women love that. When a man tells them that he knew he shouldn’t but he had to because he needed her so much.

    Women are a mass of contradictions, saying what they don’t mean, doing things they will SAY that they don’t want to do, I can understand a lot of younger men’s confusion. But I have no confusion – I know what I want, and it is what women respond to, and nature demands. So afterward, they are lying there telling me how “I never felt anything like that before” and they want to know that they did well. I make them happy and comfortable with being with me. I am convinced that one of the reasons so many younger women share my bed is because I am the opposite of men their age, who listen to them and kow-tow to what they say. I don’t. They can stay, or go – that is their choice, but if they stay, I am in charge, most young women want that.

    Women want to not have to decide, so when they are with me it’s just pleasure for them, I handle the “responsibility”. (But I do have a large supply of “morning after” pills – which I’ll give them in the morning. But the ones I have require they take for 3 days, I can insure that first one, but the others are up to her.) Being so much older is a protection – she doesn’t want anyone to know about “us” – that’s fine, the more forbidden it is the more it excites her that’s why women go after the “bad” boys – society tells her that it’s wrong, so it excites them.

    So to those guys that “ask” – you keep doing that… I’ll pass and do what I want, and take command. That is what women all want, and you’ll be wondering why they left you, and came to my bed (or someone like me that only wants to “use” her), or went with the “bad” boy that does NOT listen to what they say, but gives them what they need, rather than what they are told is acceptable to want.

  235. theshadowedknight

    Just Saying is correct. You are making the same mistake so many others have made, the mistake I wrote this to correct. You are asking. No, if you are to lead your wife, you must tell her.

    Command, do not request. Doubt may tell you to hesitate, but ignore it. Women want to be guided. Tell her you are not using a condom, you are not pulling out, and she will take it. Show her your will, and bend her to it. You were instructed to lead; God charged you with marital headship. Act like it.

    He also charged us to be fruitful and fill the world. How is that going to happen if you do not fill your wife with your seed? Nothing grows in even the most fertile ground if it is never planted. Stop deferring, and start taking your place as head.

    The Shadowed Knight

  236. Reverse Pollyanna

    Very important point about cheek turning. You can’t be merciful unless you have power, there’s no nobility in walking away from a fight if you couldn’t fight anyway. Christ was often called the Son of David for a reason: David was a badass.

    I like Gandhi and he liked the bible. He had a pretty good interpretation of the ‘turn the other cheek’ passage. He didn’t see it as an excuse to make yourself a whipping post for someone. Instead, he saw it as a way of being fearless. Turn the other cheek and show that you hold no fear for your ally is Christ. Show that the spirit of Christ does not need to fear anything of this world for He has conquered death and we live eternally through Him. I like that interpretation better than an acceptance of abuse.

    [ssm: LOL, nice handle. :)]

  237. earl

    The thing that is frightening to women is making a decision.

    From where I am at…it seems to be the most frightening thing for a guy as well.

    It’s no wonder things get done so slowly.

  238. Lauren

    Your zucchini lasagna idea is genius :) My husband is Italian and loves pasta but he eats low carb and suffers for it. I am going to try this recipe on Monday :)

  239. Matthew King

    Mrs. Sunshine Mary wrote:

    I’m not Catholic, but so much of their doctrine is so very sensible that I find myself consulting Catholic sources when I am unsure about anything and can’t find a clear answer in the Bible.

    Soon.

    So much of the Tiber swim is realizing one’s Catholic already, and has been for a long time. You’re only a couple yards from the sure shore.

    Matt

  240. Matthew King

    And no, there is nothing ” in Catholic doctrine that prohibits mild consensual sexual aggression.” We have long since seized back the churchgeist from the clutches of puritans, excessive mortifiers, and the scrupulous.

    “I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.” — John 10:10

    Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine,
    There’s always laughter and good red wine.
    At least I’ve always found it so.
    Benedicamus Domino!

    — Hilaire Belloc

  241. Hipster Racist

    “You know, Lee,…there’s a long history of this in Catholicism. The monks used to wear thorns on their temples. And the nuns wore them sewn inside their clothing.”

    @nightskyradio,

    “cismarried” is hilarious.

  242. Christina

    SSM –
    I am so sorry I derailed this discussion… my question wasn’t about the moral acceptance of sexual spanking vs disciplinary spanking of children, it was more a question on the psychological impact.

    BDSM advocates claim that spanking puts the sub into a submissive state, a place where truly submissive types are happy to be in – they find peace with the loss of control because they have accepted someone else as being in control. At least that is my understanding of what I’ve briefly come across. It is lauded by them as a psychological benefit.

    So why wouldn’t disciplinary spanking have the same “submissive state” bit with it? We all know children respond best to having well-defined and well-enforced boundaries… because they don’t have to be in control of their actions until they hit that boundary. Being able to go crazy in those boundaries is freeing to a child – and where those boundaries are well and consistently enforced, they become 2nd nature. I’ve realized by observing how my son responds to spanking that I really don’t need to hurt him at all. At first, he is angered by the act and he fights against it, but even without applying force behind it, there’s a switch to where he has submitted to me and is willing to acknowledge that what he did was wrong.

    -*-*-*
    Wow to Sharrukin. You have defended this far better than I ever could have.

    I have done the time-out route. 3 corner time outs and then a bed time out if that is necessary. I really wanted to keep spanking as a last resort. I have talked his ear off. I have done creative discipline – I even have a book on it and have used quite a few techniques to great success… like enforcing teeth brushing and potty training.

    The time-out period was my son’s most difficult period. That was the age of violent temper-tantrums. Sending him to his bed resulted in broken lamps, broken shelves, and broken clay piggy-banks. When I started incorporating spanking, it stopped.

    But you see, spanking my child was not an INAPPROPRIATE reaction. As an adult, if he had behaved in such a manner, someone would’ve punched his lights out, pulled a gun on him, or he’d be arrested for assault and sent to anger management. So, responding to my son’s violence with violence (like it would happen in the real world without nearly so much control and with far more deadly consequences), he knows that when he hits someone, he gets hit back.

    He also knows that hitting causes pain and if he doesn’t want to be in pain, then he shouldn’t cause someone else pain – because our rule around here has stopped being “be nice” but instead to “treat others the way you want to be treated.” If he doesn’t want to be spanked, then he shouldn’t hit.

    Spanking is NOT a daily occurrence. In fact, we can go months with perfectly behaved children and then *boom*, overnight it’s a disciplinary nightmare. If I handle things swiftly, consistently, and forcefully, it’s over in a week and we are a happy family again for several more months. If I don’t, it goes on for weeks until I DO enforce it.

    I have come to the conclusion that the people studied in the anti-spanking studies don’t know what spanking is. It is defined as “hitting” vs “controlled hitting for disciplinary reasons”. There’s a huge difference between giving my child a bloody lip because he forgot to say “Please” and “Thank you” vs smacking his bum after he makes a mad dash for the road. These studies don’t differentiate between the two.

  243. Christina

    So much of the Tiber swim is realizing one’s Catholic already, and has been for a long time. You’re only a couple yards from the sure shore.

    If it weren’t for the intercession of Mary and the Saints (vs Christ’s intercession that he DIED to give us) and the perpetual Virgin Mary, I’d be catholic.

    I simply can not accept those – one is actually way to important to me, the other is just silly (imo).

  244. Matthew King

    Again, “violence = evil” is a feminist construct. It is part of their redefinition of all manly traits as sinful per se.

    Violence, manliness, and power in general are simply means to other ends. If they are directed towards the intrinsic evil of murdering the innocent, then they are instruments of evil. If they are directed toward defending the innocent or tough love (spank, spank), then they are instruments of good. We are mightily confused about this in our decadent feminist age.

    Guns don’t kill people, people kill people. Violence isn’t sinful, violence in the aid of sin is sinful.

    Violence is the outward indicator of manliness, which is why women subject themselves to it voluntarily despite the inevitable pain. Because of the inevitable pain. “I loved that he was so powerful I was nothing” (The Story of O). Pain is clarifying and pure, the language of command. Does not the Lord himself speak to us in this way from the earliest age? Before we can speak, we understand the diction of pain. Do we not learn about our biggest errors this way? Read the Book of Lamentations.

    In Christ’s suffering on the Cross, he imbued all suffering with meaning. Read up on the Catholic doctrine of “redemptive suffering.” When a parent strikes his child out of anger, he is acting wickedly (“If I have spoken rightly, why do you strike me?” John 18:23). When he strikes his child out of love, he is acting in accord with God’s will. We all know the difference; there are no ambiguities.

    Likewise, when a man fucks his wife to the point of pain, he is reminding the object of his love that, “in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.” The man delivers, the woman receives. In this most extreme delivery and reception, in the very roughness of the act, complementary flesh becomes its truest, singular self, a contained circuit of grace. What is more intimate than giving and taking the sensations that remind the flesh it is 100% alive? What is the opposite of stillness, numbness, oblivion?

    It is “Thank you, sir, may I have another?”

    The avoidance of pain is a sin of omission, a facilitator of evil. It places ourselves and our momentary physical concerns above the mysterious purposes of the Lord. Consider the single time Jesus called Peter “Satan” (Matthew 16:21-28). We are vessels of redemptive suffering, a suffering that, through the work of our Redeemer, brings forth the kingdom of heaven.

    Matt

  245. Ton

    LOL, if it wasn’t for Catholicism I could be Catholic. Cannot think of much they right. Which is how I think of all the big church brands, which is what happens when you formalize and centralize power.

    Christina, your son sounds a lot like the stories my folks tell about me, expect spanking did not work either. Mostly I grew out of it/ burned away the energy through sports but your spanking as a child vs what happens to out of control young adults is the exact reason why you discipline children, in which ever manner is most effective. Some kids are mild manner, some have all manners of behaviors that need addressed.

  246. Matthew King

    Miss Christina wrote:

    If it weren’t for the intercession of Mary and the Saints (vs Christ’s intercession that he DIED to give us) and the perpetual Virgin Mary, I’d be catholic.

    You are starting from the wrong end of the cafeteria. We don’t begin by reconciling every detail of every doctrine to our own flawed impressions. We begin with broad acceptance and work out our faith in progressive steps to God. Like Mary herself, the magnifying glass, perpetually pointing the way to her son. “My soul magnifies the Lord…” (Luke 1:46). “His mother said to the servants, ‘Do whatever he tells you’” (John 2:5).

    Do you know that most of my life I, a born skeptic, am shrouded in the fog of doubt? An invisible God! You want me to believe in what now? A parted sea? Surviving a furnace? Jonah in the belly of a fish? A Virgin, a spotless soul, our “tainted nature’s solitary boast”? One God in three Persons??? I tell you I live in the oblivion of doubt 99% of my life.

    But faith, like hope and love, is an act of the will. It is not a motion of the intellect or a vague impression or a feeeeeling. It is not meant to be parsed or understood. It is meant to be leapt into, accepted, and from there reverse-intuited as true. You don’t know how or why it is, you simply know that it is. Like a child can trust his father to hand him an egg rather than a scorpion. “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matt 3:18).

    If faith were meant to be satisfying to any one person’s particular expectations, it would be by definition fraudulent. You have to abstract from your obstacles so as to transcend them.

    Christianity itself was literally conceived in the act of one humble woman’s perfect faith. “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.” You may find it troubling that such a soul or any soul might even still exist, much less “intercede” on your behalf. With the Lord as my witness, I do confess that doubt. But in recognizing my finitude, I search for the flaws within myself first, and only thereafter in the flaws of dogma or doctrine.

    And guess what? I always find my mortal soul lacking, I am constantly rediscovering an intellectual certitude, and I witness my puny little pride yet again attempting to rein in the infinite power of the Lord. I remember the words of the angel that prompted Mary to her Annunciation, that brought the flesh of Christ the Lord to my humble plane of existence, that saved me from my deadly destiny: “For with God nothing will be impossible.”

    Matt

  247. Matthew King

    Ton dribbled:

    Geeze how many words does it take to say violence is a tool? Apparently a lot

    How few words does it take to prove yourself a dullard? Apparently not many.

    So why do you insist on confirming it over and over and over again, you thickheaded spastic? Every thread you’re good for at least one post where you tell on yourself.

    Get a helmet before you do some real damage. I mean, you have a hard pate, but even a concrete cranium can only stand so much self-abuse.

    Matt

  248. Christina

    Matt,

    Its not the part of Christ being born of a virgin. It’s that Mary and Joseph NEVER had relations even AFTER Christ’s birth. That is what I don’t grapple with well… but then this was the silly one. I just think it is silly to that Mary remained a Virgin all the rest of her life for your doctrine to work.

    The other one is far more important to me. Christ shed his blood as the intercessor for us to reach God. Not Mary, not the saints. CHRIST did that. He died and rose again so we can stand spotless and blameless before God the Father. If Mary is an intercessor, than what the heck did Christ die for, again? So you can be sanctified by virgin motherhood? Sign me up for IVF immediately! Mary is not the doorway to Christ. Christ is the doorway to God.

    Hence why I am Episcopal… apart from the state of the national church, our doctrine is much like Catholicism – without the bits and pieces I have issues with. When my diocese aligns itself with the national church, I will then join the Catholic church.

  249. Matthew King

    Christina, “Intercessor” does not mean “redemptrix.” It means carry these prayers to Go, as we literally implore her to do in the Hail Mary: “Holy Mary … pray for us sinners…” Has anyone ever asked you for their prayers? Is it not a joy and a privilege to be a part of such a message delivery, even though we are guaranteed access to the Father through his Son? Are prayers even necessary, given that God knows us better than ourselves?

    And a certain fixation on Mary’s sexual life (a concern exclusively peculiar to this anomalous sexual revolutionary age) is not required for a “doctrine to work.”

    The Episcopal Church in the United States is run by an academic woman bishop afraid to proclaim the sovereignty of Christ for fear of upsetting SWPL sensibilities, and they proclaim open sodomites to be bishops. I’d say one set of problems is far more proximate than your understandable doubts about a theological doctrine of consistency with no practical application.

    These are the wages of sloth. You are not working out your faith in fear and trembling. You are not taking the life of Christ serious enough to demand the most basic righteousness from your church.

    Your brother in Christ,
    Matt

  250. tbc

    re: the intercession of Mary and the other saints (disclaimer — I am not Catholic). The idea of the dead interceding for the living is a logical extension of the very notion of intercession. Just as we would ask a trusted godly friend to pray for us (because we know his character and that he has a solid relationship with the Lord) so by extension and to a greater extent we can call on the departed, who are in the bosom of Abraham and close to the Father’s heart to also pray for us. It is a very simple idea. The veil separating living and dead, physical and spiritual is not quite as opaque as moderns would have it, so there really is no biblical issue with saintly intercession.

    On the perpetual virginity of Mary. Well that one I have a harder time with, though, to be fair, the whole of Catholic dogma doesn’t really rest on that issue. It is ancillary to the core issue, which is the application of grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

  251. Martel

    @ tbc/Matt: I agree on intercession. However, sometimes (not all the time) regarding Mary it seems as though some folks look upon her less as an intercessor and more as some sort of goddess. Both of you seem to strike the balance correctly, but it is a balance, and it must be struck.

  252. Morvena

    @Ton – That’s what I thought. It’s interesting how different expressions of masculinity do it for different people. I’m drawn to men like my husband that tend to be more “witty” and utilize physicality as a supplement whereas another woman may prefer a very physically active (sports, hunting, military) man but the end result seems to be the same. I guess that’s what “be *her* alpha” means.

    Random thoughts:
    (1) I’m not sure why it’s so hard to understand that different children respond to different methods of punishment. Spanking was good for me until I got a little older and then scolding or a little shame-based punishment was usually all it took for me to straighten up and fly right. However, a little pain gets results and usually isn’t easily forgotten – to this day I flee from wasps and bees due to a childhood sting and I heard, “Well that’s what happens!” numerous times when I got hurt from doing something dumb. Seems like the same basic principle with spanking, especially when used for major offenses.
    (2) I’m with Elspeth in that it’s not so much that I fear my husband or father but that there’s an intimidation factor. They would never hurt me but deliberately making them angry makes for unpleasantness all around so why go there? Most of the time it’s not worth causing a ruckus over.
    (3) I admit I’m a little taken back by the anti-contraception view exhibited by the majority of the posters here. I was already familiar with the Catholic view on it, but I guess I’m used to the people I know of Protestant background being more accepting/neutral on it. Children are encouraged as a blessing, but I’ve never heard a sermon specifically concerning birth control or the lack of.

  253. FuzzieWuzzie

    Je Suis Prest,
    Thank you for the kind words. i can’t fault her as she is taking care of her mother afflicted with Alzheimer’s. What worries me is that it’s all on her shouldres and it is more than she can handle. I ahve offered to assist.
    “Empty dance card”, time to go home. Attendence is not required.

  254. tbc

    @Morvena – nearly all Christian denominations used to be against artificial contraception. The Episcopalians were the first to fold (unsurprisingly). Most protestants now use bc without thinking about it from a moral / spiritual point of view. Increasingly though there are prots who have researched both the physical and spiritual implication of contraception and are deciding against it, or at least opting for less artificial means than those popular employed.

    It is a true though that advances in feminism can be almost directly tied to advances in artificial birth control devices and most especially to the introduction of hormonal birth control (the pill) which removed the main responsibility for contraception from the man (via condoms) to the woman. All that we see in the current SMP and MMP can be virtually traced to that. Coupled with the introduction of treatments for the most common venereal diseases, the sexual revolution took off and well now here we are.

  255. Learner

    TSK,

    Learner, God absolutely becomes violent when needed. Sodom, Gomorrah, the Philistines, Egypt, the Flood, the Temple, and even His defiance of the Adversary in the desert. Disobedience and sin will earn a trip to Hell.

    I asked if Christ threatened violence against his church, the bride of Christ….your comment does not address that.

    Violence takes many forms, not all are immoral.

    I agree.

    Where, in the Bible or in other Church law, does it state that a measured use of force is prohibited sexually? If you cannot show the proscription, you are talking from your own thoughts and feelings.

    I am not a sola scriptura Protestant or Catholic, I am an Eastern Orthodox Christian. Our church cannons do not specifically address this question, however we have thousands of years of teaching to draw from. For example, in Orthodoxy we take seriously the idea that marriage is an icon of the relationship between Jesus Christ and his church/bride…this is where my question to you came from. Does Christ entice His church’s commitment/feelings/obedience to Him through fear or a threat of violence? If you think so…show me your scripture verse and remember we are talking about the NT church.

    Are you sure it isn’t your own thoughts and feelings that you are talking from?

    Elsbeth,

    I understand what you are saying…I am not afraid that Brendan will hurt me either but I do fear disappointing him and I agree that is a good thing. Heh, that is part of why I don’t comment nearly as much as I used to…I don’t want to embarrass him! ;)

  256. Christina

    You are not taking the life of Christ serious enough to demand the most basic righteousness from your church.

    Is that so? We are standing in direct opposition to our Presiding Bishop, refusing to accept what she claims, and attempting to maintain a stronghold of sound doctrine within the Episcopal Church while churches all around us flee because they don’t want to wear “episcopal” on them due to association. You think ms. schori will be the leadership forever? I doubt it. The diocese and local bishops hold the ultimate decision on doctrine taught in their diocese – not ms. schori… and as long as our bishop expounds the soundness of scripture, I’m sticking around. NOT out of fear.

  257. theshadowedknight

    Hell. A lake of fire where the unrepentant sinners go to burn for all eternity. The absence of God as he withdraws his love. That is the threat.

    You admit that you have no basis in even your church to prohibit this. You say you have no proof it is bad, so I must prove it is good. You are trying to put the burden of proof upon my shoulders to avoid dealing with my point. You are rationalizing to escape the implication of my writing. You are twisting the meaning of Scripture to paint a false dichotomy.

    The argument is over. I did not realize that you were a woman. As I do not know you and you are not intellectually honest in our talks, I will not argue further. Painful experience has taught me that engaging a woman in a difference of opinion is folly. If you have some proof to offer besides opinion, we may continue. Until then, have a good day.

    The Shadowed Knight

  258. Morvena

    @tbc – Yes, I think most Protestants must not really think about. With a few exceptions, most of the families in our church usually have 1-3 children so barring fertility issues I’d imagine most use or have used some form of BC. My husband and I are included in that; we’ve opted to use the pill only. I didn’t know that ovulation was still a possibility until SSM shared a story about it in one of her comments, so now I’ve got a lot to think about.

  259. tacomaster

    I always feel late to the party lol.

    Good post Shadowed Knight. The only thing I have somewhat of an issue with is this quote of yours: “Sex is not an immediate need in the manner of food or water. The need for sex is like the need for shelter; not having it will not kill you, but it will put you at risk”. Nurses prioritize the needs of their patients using the Maslow’s Hierarchy of Need chart. It is broken down as a triangle. On the base of the triangle are physiological needs. They are comprised of breathing, food, water, excretion, homeostasis, sleep, and SEX. The theory is that the next tier cannot be fulfilled until the tier below it has been taken care of. The other levels above physiological needs are safety, love/belonging, esteem, and self-actualization. You never finished what “at risk” means to you. For me though, when I go without sex I have feelings of loneliness, emptiness, and then it proceeds into anger and lastly manifests into physical manifestations such as headaches, insomnia, and forgetfulness. I know it sounds stupid but that’s what I’ve assessed in myself.

    Good information on domination, etc. I remember that from my pre-marriage days. Women are really into it but tend not to bring it up. I think there’s a lot of shame or embarrassment on their end.

    @Christina, researchers have found that semen (only from the father, not any other guy) will lessen a mother’s symptoms of morning sickness during pregnancy. Here is a link that discusses it.
    http://blogs.babycenter.com/mom_stories/08132012-expert-recommends-oral-sex-as-a-cure-for-morning-sickness/

  260. Learner

    TSK,

    I will skip the tags since i always mess them up.
    “Hell. A lake of fire where the unrepentant sinners go to burn for all eternity. The absence of God as he withdraws his love. That is the threat.”

    Again, I am talking about the church, the bride of Christ who are by definition those who will be with him in heaven.

    Now, does God apply consequences for people’s actions? Yes He does, and we can learn through this. But, is that the means through which He draws us to Himself or is grace? Christ never threatened people into following Him.

    “You admit that you have no basis in even your church to prohibit this. ”

    No, that is not what I said, I said there was no specific cannon against it, but there was millennia of teaching to look to, and I gave you am example: marriage as a icon of the relationship between Christ and His church.

    “You say you have no proof it is bad, so I must prove it is good.”

    Nope, that isn’t what I said. I gave one reason why what you proposed was not reflective of the relationship between Christ and His Church.

    “you are trying to put the burden of proof upon my shoulders to avoid dealing with my point.”

    I am not certain what point you are referring to, I did not intentionally avoid dealing with anything you said.

    ” You are rationalizing to escape the implication of my writing. You are twisting the meaning of Scripture to paint a false dichotomy.”

    What false dichotomy am I painting?

    “The argument is over. I did not realize that you were a woman. As I do not know you and you are not intellectually honest in our talks, I will not argue further.”

    I actually have been honest, but since you do not know me I understand that you cannot know that. If you don’t want to discuss the point I brought up, that is your choice.

    I miss Anakin Niceguy…

  261. nightskyradio

    vR – Just imagine Susan B Anthony dollar coins being thrown onto the stage at strippers, due to the lack of dollar bills. Oh the irony

    More irony (and zinc and copper, I presume) than you think – what better way to determine a stripper’s tip-worthiness than by testing to see if she can pick up the coin without using her hands?

    Hey, somebody around here’s gotta think about the important things.

  262. Je Suis Prest

    @ NSR

    Lol, but I think you’re trashing SSMs plan to have a classy Christian blog =).

  263. theshadowedknight

    Ellise R, I do not. I post here, and occasionally elsewhere, but I do not have my own blog. If you wish, I occasionally write up a piece and send it via email to my contacts. My email is in this thread higher up, so send me a line if you want to be in on it.

    The Shadowed Knight

  264. infowarrior1

    @tbc

    I agree with you on intercession until the point where it involves communicating the dead:
    http://www.tektonics.org/lp/pwsaints.html

    Considering that asking in individual person to pray for us possesses,finite capabilities. I would have to disagree that there is not difference between communicating with the dead and a living person. That dead saint would have to process millions of prayers at once. And would have to be omnipresent in order to hear them all. Something which only God possess. Also there is no guarantee that saints may even hear our prayers considering they are dead and asleep.

    Also there is no precedent nor provision for communicating with saints who have passed away in the scriptures.All prayers are directed and addressed to God.

  265. Sarah's Daughter

    Folks should understand, I don’t care about society or fixing its problems. I am, however, very willing to help men, and potential men, as individuals. Same for ladies if they are that perplexed. – Ton

    Ton, I will thank you again for your willingness to help men. With regards to the wife of the disabled Vet I asked your advice about, things are improving greatly for them. Time will tell, of course. Since our email exchange, there have thankfully been no further incidences. She is also pregnant (they had sex one time during her cycle, she’s breastfeeding and he wore a condom….if there was ever a reason to believe in God’s hand, this would be one). This pregnancy has been the catalyst of some major changes in their lives. – just thought I’d give you an update.

    Oh it gets so interesting when two very different AMOGs meet within a comment thread.

    Matt and Ton…First off, Ton is no dullard or thickheaded spastic, Matt. It is absurd for you to assert as much. He exemplifies all that remains great in this country. His military service is highly admirable and respected, his contribution to the well being of our volunteer Soldiers is invaluable. He is exactly the kind of man who will be at the helm of leading other wary men back to their rightful position in society. Do not mistake him for a fool, he is not.

    Ton, though you have no use for that which Matt writes and you bemoan women’s enjoyment of poetry and wordiness, you miss a very important aspect of female attraction. A strong man who can recite Emerson, Frost, Whitman or even Poe is very desirable – if he can recite the great philosophers…even more so. I don’t agree with Matt on everything he writes (I am not Catholic nor will ever be) but there are times that his writing hits the ball out of the park. I read it several times just to drink in all of its meaning. He has a true talent and is a very valuable contributor to the sphere.

    The combination of both of you is powerful.

    So it is known, RLB is sitting right here and agrees with and approves of what I have written.

  266. nightskyradio

    JSP – I think you’re trashing SSMs plan to have a classy Christian blog

    You obviously haven’t seen mine. Trust me, I class my comments up for over here. ;)

  267. tbc

    @infowarrior – I am not justifying the practice, only explaining it. Also the term ‘pray’ has acquired connotations in modern English that it did not always have. it means, “I beg” as in the term, “pray, tell”. So I could write, “I pray thee, SSM, that thou wouldst change the format of this blog.”

  268. Hannah

    @Martel:
    “If I had the time, I’d love to write a book on the red pill wisdom of Genesis. I have it outlined already, but time is lacking at present. God willing, someday I’ll have it.”

    Yes please sir!!!

  269. Sherlock

    “Still if you go to a place like FetLife you will see that some people are embracing it outside of being kink or play. There are anti-feminist groups, male-led household groups, male superiority groups, and the like. Of course they are heavily trolled and the feminists have their own answer to them in group form but they are there and they are growing in number.

    I’m starting to think of BDSM as a gateway drug of sorts. It’s a “safe space” to experiment and once you are there you learn a thing or two about human nature and your own nature and realize it’s really not as horrid as you have been told.”

    This is why I have written several times the last couple of years that the manosphere should actively seek out a presence in the BDSM community. There are so many potential recruits there and once you hook enough of them they will start taking care of directing others in the community and newcomers to manosphere resources. There is a LOT of people that are in that scene or who just occasionally stop by their forums. Doing active “marketing” towards them is an efficient way to grow. I think the sphere offers them two things. Insight into the psychology of dom sub, especially the dynamic outside the actual sex. And it offers many the road to an expansion from a kink to their real desires as described here.

    I think there are other communities that are potentially much more likely to take in the red pill and that are efficient to target. Bodybuilder forums and martial arts forums tend to be way, way more red pill than average forums for example. The high testosterone and masculinity ideals make it so. I read a long thread in a bodybuilder forum where people posted the videos of big red from the Torronto MRA demonstrations and almost everyone who posted in the thread was super receptive to the MRA and antifeminism stuff written and linked to by a guy in the thread. Again, if we hook enough people in such a subculture they will start to take care of informing newcomers and the whole culture will change. Hunter and gun forums will certainly be another potential target. Perhaps surprising is that meditation, qigong, yoga and new age forums also often have many extremely red pill men. Generally that entire world believes in the polarity between masculinity and femininity. There are also many men in that world that have been extreme nice guys that have started to turn it around. It seems like those communities tend to end up with many people that are a bit ahead of the development f society and very many people that are damaged strongly by whatever means society is damaging people at the time and that means many people with a damaged masculinity looking for change. I am sure there are other communities in addition to these that have red pill potential. Are there romance novel forums? Fifty shades of gray forums? Libertarians seems to be unusually likely to also hold red pillish beliefs. Forums for immigrants from outside the western world. Forums with men that have wives from outside the western world and xpat forums.

  270. Christina

    @Christina, researchers have found that semen (only from the father, not any other guy) will lessen a mother’s symptoms of morning sickness during pregnancy. Here is a link that discusses it.
    http://blogs.babycenter.com/mom_stories/08132012-expert-recommends-oral-sex-as-a-cure-for-morning-sickness/

    Oh God… given my experience with morning sickness the first time around, getting that close to pubic hair would’ve resulted in a mess. We had to change his deodorant, shampoo, cologne, toothpaste, mouthwash… EVERYTHING just so I could sit NEXT to him without getting sick…

  271. Je Suis Prest

    @ Ton

    Thanks for the offer, I’ll keep that in mind =)

    @ NSR

    I have checked out your blog. The Homeowner Clubs Burglar With Pottery, Holds Him At Elephantpoint After He Urinates In Basement, Leaves Beer In Washing Machine headline made me laugh =).

  272. Ellise R

    The Shadowed Knight, thank you. I’ll send you an email. I enjoyed your writing at MMSL and was pleased when I recognized your writing!

  273. theshadowedknight

    MMSL? I did not believe that I had written anything of particular note there. I was merely giving my views. What exactly was it that got your attention?

    The Shadowed Knight

  274. Escoffier

    “if he can recite the great philosophers…even more so.”

    I was going to say that this never worked for me, but on reflection, it did, once, and once turned out to be enough!

  275. tacomaster

    @Christina, wow I’m sorry to hear that. You had a really bad bout of morning sickness. Did you experience pica at all–eating strange things like clay or dirt? It’s not unheard of. I took care of a lady who said she craved chalk during her pregnancy.

  276. van Rooinek

    vR – Just imagine Susan B Anthony dollar coins being thrown onto the stage at strippers, due to the lack of dollar bills. Oh the irony

    NSR: More irony (and zinc and copper, I presume) than you think – what better way to determine a stripper’s tip-worthiness than by testing to see if she can pick up the coin without using her hands?

    Dude, you’re engaged. No more strippers. If you want A. to learn that coin trick before the honeymoon, that’s between you and her. But don’t tell US… that would be TMI.

  277. Sherlock

    “But of course, the only social science studies that exist on spanking and submission are all about BDSM. ”

    You have any links to those+

  278. Ton

    Am I a dullard MK, because I read Aristotle and decided he had nothing of value to add to my life? It’s a simple economic equation of allotting a scarice resource, in this case my time. I specialized in practical knowledge ( well practical in my life of doing, being and risk seeking)

    Or am I a dullard because your concept of intelligence is so small you cannot see beyond reading books and vomiting hundreds of words when dozen will do?

    Where in the Bible does it say demons fear Mary and that she never had sex with Joseph?

    It’s an open offer darling JSP, I would look gooood with a 5’9″ brunette on each arm.

    Thank you SD, for the kind words and the update. I would say you like those things out of RBL because you’re into RBL and not because he can rip out some quotes. I have read some philosophy, but stoped once you realize it’s all random none sense ( Stoics excluded). Don’t think any chick has ever said yes because I can quote Shakesphere or Churchill or Jackson, Lee etc.

    You know Morvena, unless I’m kicking around the manosphere, I rarely think in the alpha/ bet leixcon. I’m more of a prey, predator and apex predator

  279. mrsdarlings

    I wish I had the physical presence of a woman in my life that I can observe.Submission is always possible and achievable. I am finding it very uncomfortable and difficult to submit especially since i’m alone in my endeavors and anyone i talk to rejects or argues with the things I say. I know i’ll get there. How are woman to find comfort during there conversion? Where should we go? Do we just submerge ourselves in the cyber world with like minded people. Like in my case my father married two huge feminists who treated me appallingly and also highly disrespected my father. I have a mom but she;s not my mom. I can’t look up to her in anyway as an example. She’s morbidly fat, reclusive,t.v dependent, What does one suggest for coping methods when going down this path to submission?

  280. Sarah's Daughter

    mrsdarlings,
    I didn’t have a woman in my personal life to emulate either. I had examples of women I could reflect on from the past (various friends’ mothers), a few television or movie examples, and the women who commented on the blogs I read. The latter was probably the best since we should follow the principles of the man, not the man, this alleviates the tendency we have to observe a woman in real life and judge her when we see her mess up (which we all do).

    If you are a Christian, pray without ceasing about it. Read and reread the verses in the Bible that speak of it and the stories that display it (Esther, for example).

    I wrote about some basics here: Don’t roll your eyes, Becoming tethered to the truth, Choosing Esther. There are more. If you put the word “Submission” into the search bar, it will bring up all of the posts. It’s the main theme of what I write about.

    When you choose to obey God’s command for you in marriage, it can be a lonely endeavor. This is also something that you must commit to, that the opinions and judgements of those around you do not matter, all that matters is your commitment to Truth and obedience to the Word. I strictly limit the amount of time I spend around other women. If they don’t have the marriage I want, if they don’t have the peace in their heart, contentment in life, calmness of spirit, that I enjoy, I protect myself from their influence. And when life gives me no options but to associate with women who are not like minded, I retreat back to my happy place to get filled back up with the Word. I have music that I play, I read the Bible, I pray, I exercise or garden (my happy things).

    I’ll keep you in my prayers. I promise you, you will come to know a peace and contentment you will have never known prior when you have surrendered yourself to obedience to God’s commands for you in marriage.

  281. Sarah's Daughter

    I would say you like those things out of RBL because you’re into RBL and not because he can rip out some quotes. – Ton

    You’re probably right about that. It certainly isn’t an initial attraction trigger. A man who isn’t physically attractive will not be able to help himself with reciting poetry or the philosophers. It adds icing to an already delicious cake.

    I appreciate the philosophers work because when I read it I am reminded again and again that there is nothing new under the sun. I appreciate great poets because I’m a nerd like that. ;)

  282. Ton

    I love me some nerdy girls…..

    Its human nature to rationalize what we like in someone other then their sex appeal. Men and women do this, with men being slightly more honest about sex appeal. There is even some weird version of pride about it, though I am not sure why. And people enjoy being a sex object to their beloved.

    Fellas, next time you want to compliment your sweetheart, say something like

    Thanks baby, dinner rocked, but I only into because you got a nice ass, ( or what have you) then grab her ass like you own it.

    Ladies, next time you want to compliment your man, tell him thanks for xyz, but you really only want him for sex and grab his junk ( side note my girls know they have to ask permission before they touch my junk or else……

  283. Lisa in Vermont

    @Mrs. Darlings

    I’m in the same boat as you. There aren’t many conservative submissive Christian women in the Peoples Republic of Vermont.

    The blogosphere is a great place to meet like-minded women. I’d recommend the Peaceful Wife blog as a place to start. Her entire blog is dedicated to helping women become more submissive and to build biblical marriages. Right now, she’s doing a daily challenge where she gives her readers assignments to meet this goal.

    Also, two books that have helped me have been the Surrendered Wife by Laura Doyle (it’s not based on scripture, but has great insight on what submission means and how to achieve it in all aspects of your marriage). Also, Love and Respect by Emerson Eggerich is based on the Ephesians 5 and very insightful and practical.

  284. Mike from the Pioneer Valley, MA

    I’m a little confused by the “biology” of the author’s argument about “semen.”

    Is there semen in saliva? Because sex surveys indicate that many, many women enjoy receiving cunnilingus—a considerable number say they cannot have an orgasm without it. So I’m wondering if the presumably salutary effects of semen ejaculated onto the vaginal mucosa have a counterpart in saliva when it comes to satisfying, or pacifying, women.

    If not, then maybe he should leave the physiological postulating to people who have given women’s sexual response a little more thought.

  285. Matthew King

    Sarah’s Daughter wrote:

    You’re probably right about that. It certainly isn’t an initial attraction trigger. A man who isn’t physically attractive will not be able to help himself with reciting poetry or the philosophers.

    Who recites poetry and philosophy and expects it to be “attractive”?

    Being versed in the seven liberal arts makes a man wise and adaptable. One masters the basics so no situation is completely foreign to him. The ability to link practical circumstances to first principles makes a man a problem-solver, multilingual, agile, confident, and calm, “keep[ing] your head when all about you / Are losing theirs and blaming it on you” (Kipling). Every challenge recalls a referent (like Kipling), and the recall keeps a man centered while the world is falling to seeming pieces. Indeed, “there is nothing new under the sun,” there is only our ignorance which we mistake for novelty.

    Turning and turning in the widening gyre
    The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
    Things fall apart; the center cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

    — Yeats, “The Second Coming”

    The center is held by the man of independent wisdom. The self-possession that attends such independence and strength “in the widening gyre” is what’s attractive. Not a rote presentation of that wisdom.

    Matt

  286. Lisa in Vermont

    @Mike from the Pioneer Valley,

    I’ve been meaning to research this since it first popped up on another blog a while back. Alas, the studies that some commentators here have linked to appear to be flawed. Psychology Today wrote a piece debunking the semen-as-an-anti-depressant myth:

    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/unique-everybody-else/201209/semen-antidepressant-think-again

    Still, science aside, there is definitely something emotionally satisfying about being intimate with your husband without any type of barrier between you, both directly during the act and when you are enjoying some cuddle time afterward. So, I wouldn’t say that it provides no benefits whatsoever.

  287. theshadowedknight

    Actually, now that you mention saliva, you reminded me of this.
    http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/02/kissingscience/

    Cunnilingus may also have an effect on a woman. Saliva contains the hormonal profile of the specific man. Some of those hormones could very well be absorbed by the vagina. Kissing and exchanging saliva can raise a woman’s sex drive, so why not the same for oral sex? An interesting notion.

    The study showed that condom use is associated with depressive symptoms. Frequency of sexual intercourse was also associated with high quality of life, but not when controlled for condom use. Those who have frequent sexual intercourse tend not use condoms. Basically, couples that use condoms had lower libido and more depression, and that somehow they differ from condom users.

    His attitude seems curious. He insists that a series of hormones that affect mood has no biological evidence or physiological mechanism for affecting mood. He uses very dismissive terminology such as bold and far-fetched, and has an almost offended tone in his writing. The whole piece has a sense of protesting more than refuting the claim.

    I stand by my original claim. He has nothing in his article that suggests that semen does not affect mood beside opinion, which is not supported by facts. Hormones do influence mood and mental state, semen is full of hormones, so it stands to reason that semen affects mood.

    Mike, I did put some thought into this. I could not cover the entirety of the feminine sexual interaction and biological interplay. It would quickly run into the thousands of pages. That is a little excessive for a single post about dominance.

    The Shadowed Knight

  288. Manna from Heaven

    Matthew King,
    “Intercessor” does not mean “redemptrix.” It means carry these prayers to Go, as we literally implore her to do in the Hail Mary: “Holy Mary … pray for us sinners…” Has anyone ever asked you for their prayers? Is it not a joy and a privilege to be a part of such a message delivery, even though we are guaranteed access to the Father through his Son? Are prayers even necessary, given that God knows us better than ourselves?

    And a certain fixation on Mary’s sexual life (a concern exclusively peculiar to this anomalous sexual revolutionary age) is not required for a “doctrine to work.”

    Good points. We do ask people to pray for us and we also pray for others. Why can’t we ask Mary? Why can’t she pray for us? She most certainly can.

    Your second point about this anomalous and its obsession with sex is reflective of the BDSM culture and rape fantasies that SSM writes about.

    “The bondage and dominance subculture first began to form around the turn of the twentieth century. It grew over the subsequent years up to the modern day, where it is known and accepted, or at the least, tolerated by the culture as a whole.”

    It developed in Anglo culture. Just one of the many thousands of cultures around the world. That to, Victorian Anglo culture, which says a lot.

    “Rape fantasies are one of the most, if not the most predominant sexual fantasy among women.”

    Amongst WHICH women?

    “Despite the taboo nature of this particular desire, more than half of women have such fantasies.”

    Again, demographic please?

    ” During one study…”

    Whom are these studies conducted on and where? Which countries? Which cultures? Religious backgrounds? SES groups?

    Taking into account what I wrote above I think we can make some assumptions about the demographics of women who are “reporting” rape fantasies, as well as where these “studies” are taking place.

  289. theshadowedknight

    Manna, the information comes from twenty different studies, over decades. As to the specific demographics involved, I do not know. I am not sure that you can draw any conclusions about the types of women who have the fantasies. From what I could tell from the studies I read before I wrote this, the samples were of a broad range of women. The urge to submit is present in a large portion of women.

    Note, also, that BDSM seems to be–besides the extremely degenerate found in any culture–primarily a creation of the West. Women do not need a BDSM style subculture when they are already placed in an inferior station by the mainstream culture. They are comfortable in submission as they are. Only when unbound in the overall culture do they begin to express their submissive tendencies in a deviant manner. Once a cultural pathologization of submission occurs, it is expressed in a warped, twisted fashion.

    The Shadowed Knight

  290. Manna from Heaven

    ” From what I could tell from the studies I read before I wrote this, the samples were of a broad range of women.”

    These studies are based largely on a few hundred or few thousand white, western women in US, Canada, the UK and maybe Australia. Not a “broad range” at all.

  291. theshadowedknight

    Right, but since we are in America here, or some other Anglosphere country, we are interested in white, Western women in the USA, Canada, the UK, Australia, and New Zealand. I am not worried about the reaction of Arab, African, or South American women, because they are not the demographic with which we are dealing. Women of European descent, and specifically Western and Northwestern European descent are of interest.

    Do you have a point here? Or are you just here to let us know that the West is becoming degenerate and decaying into a immoral, empty husk of its former strength? We know.

    The Shadowed Knight

  292. Manna from Heaven

    “Right, but since we are in America here, or some other Anglosphere country, we are interested in white, Western women in the USA, Canada, the UK, Australia, and New Zealand. I am not worried about the reaction of Arab, African, or South American women, because they are not the demographic with which we are dealing. Women of European descent, and specifically Western and Northwestern European descent are of interest.

    Do you have a point here? ”

    Yes. My point is that the way SSM wrote it, the assumption is that this so called “rape fantasy” is some sort of universal trait in women.

    “Or are you just here to let us know that the West is becoming degenerate”

    Becoming?

  293. theshadowedknight

    Actually, I wrote it. The need for dominance is universal; the access is not. Hence the rape fantasy. Society has crushed the men that would be satisfying these women, and so their desires are expressed as the fantasy. Women being satisfied by their men are not likely to have this issue. Since this is a Western perversion, Western women are the demographic covered.

    The Shadowed Knight

  294. Manna from Heaven

    “Women being satisfied by their men are not likely to have this issue.”

    Women being “satisfied” by their men is another issue entirely. That you would link “rape fantasies” to women being “dissatisfied” is, I dunno, unscientific to say the least.

    I guess then we can assume rape victims have been “satisfied” and thus are exempt from the fantasy.

  295. Manna from Heaven

    “Totally off topic, girl just told me her ideal marriage vows would be
    Him, promise to protect, provide, correct and cherish
    Hers, obey and____ on command

    Life is good. Got a glass full of 108 proof Wild Turkey, my Girl at my feet, a Gurkha Titan in my hand and on one of my ladies chatting with the other. Life is so very good.”

    LOL! And I’ve got some… well, you know the rest… sand, desert, sell.

    If your life is “so very good” then why bother trolling stodgy ol’ Christian blogs where, you know, outdated ideas like monogamy are discussed?

  296. theshadowedknight

    Manna, speaking of trolling, what exactly are you doing here? You do not seem to understand the concepts being discussed, and you are being quite obnoxious.

    Are you trying to be obtuse? Where would you get women that are raped would have their need for male strength fulfilled? Did you read past to the description of the fantasy, or were you so offended that you just came to complain? Go back and read it again, and try to understand this time. Their need for dominance is separate from their need for intercourse.

    The Shadowed Knight

  297. Manna from Heaven

    Sharrukin is correct. In the words of Generation Kill, “War is the motherf*cking answer!” Violence solves problems. Look at the Mongols, and there is an idea; run some Ghengis Khan Game.

    What exactly did Khan “solve”? And now we’ve got “Khan game”? What – rape, pillage and kill mindlessly? Like, keeeewel, dude!

    “[ssm: Readers, isn't it odd how an agnostic such as Sharrukin is so much more in line with what the Bible actually says than many people who claim the name of Christ? I hope I live to see the day when squishy "Christians" are either truly converted or are purged from the faith.]”

    Mary, that’s more an issue of parenting style than anything else. I’m not against some light spanking for little kids, or a light slap on the wrist, though I don’t do either to my kids. However I am very much against slapping kids in the face. And also against spanking them as they get older because it brings with it other connotations.

    About whether or not rough sex is a “sin”. I honestly can’t comprehend how a husband and wife in love could have any sexual issues or sexual ambiguity at all. My wife and I learned in our first year of marital sexual exploration through trial and error what turned us on and we very clearly communicated that and taught each other as we went along.

    Openness, respect for boundaries and communication are key.

  298. mrsdarlings

    @ sarah’s daughter. Thank you for all the information you given me, I’ll be reading! I literally have NO like minded friends. I’m in a new country and I have had to just stay away from the other women that are in my church. I’m women friendship lonely to the point of tears…sometimes. More fervent Praying, study, and application of the knowledge will definitely attract her into my life. I just can’t have her until my behavior matches a true submissive women. She won’t recognize me, otherwise or want to be around me (much like i don’t want to be around the others) I’ve decided until I physically find her. I just have to be the one that stands out; when i do decide to be among the others, So, that when others see me they feel that peace or see the spark. Want it.seek Then seek me out for guidance TO that feeling and the path of conversion. I can send them here, I think we are all little light houses with lights pointing to the sky to guide others to the divine order of man and women. I just got to keep my head up.

    @ lisa in vermont

    Thank you!!!!! boooks. So, that i can take it with me anywhere i go. Thank you for the peaceful wife blog!

  299. Ton

    Because this place isn’t stodgy, and I value the opinions of many of the posters. Clearly not yours, since I generally hold the opinion of women in low regard.

    Islam gives the world 3 options; conversion, submission or death. Moslems should be given the same 3 options. God Himself being a big fan of exterminating and subjugation of non believers.

  300. Sarah's Daughter

    I’m women friendship lonely to the point of tears…sometimes.

    I understand completely. I’m an extrovert who gets recharged by social interaction. Which is a challenge when most social interaction involves women who are not of like mind. Though I love my alone time, I will begin to wither when I’ve gone too long without being “out there”. I’ve found a solution to this with the gym I go to – (It doesn’t have to be a gym, any hobby or interest will do). I’ve cultivated friendships with women there who I hold at arms length regarding relationship topics. If one of the ladies begins talking negatively about their husbands, this is the one setting where I will not offer advice, I just change the subject. Most of what we discuss is about food and training. Any topic that smells like it’s going to get into politics/religion/marriage I steer back to a neutral zone. Just last Thursday one of the women was complaining about her husband and “all men are selfish.” (Her surgeon husband dared to want his treadmill in a room she doesn’t want it. What an ass! You can imagine how much he works while she prances to her very expensive gym in her sweet Cadillac SUV and then runs her errands – hair, nails etc) – It took every ounce of self control I had to just change the subject. RLB asked me why I missed out on an opportunity, to…you know, be me. I told him that I need to preserve this one place where I don’t get involved. When I’m there I do whatever I can to keep the atmosphere positive and focused on the goal of why we all are there. I don’t accept FB friend requests from anyone there, no one there reads my blog, and I don’t interact with them in any other social setting.

  301. theshadowedknight

    Make a snatch of the Kabaa so the sorry pricks cannot make up some story about it being drawn up to heaven when we level Mecca. Smash it on live TV and pour some holy water on it to kill whatever demons are hiding inside. Stamp out that particular heresy with fire and steel, a Last Crusade to reclaim the Holy Land once and for all.

    I am not especially fond of the Mohammedans, in case that was not clear.

    The Shadowed Knight

  302. mrsdarlings

    @ sarahs daughter

    I like what you said neutral zone. Places where i can go where people are just casual friends. where i just recharge. Nothing more. That i think explains why i haven’t wanted to call the girls that i meet at the gym. And blaming myself for the lack. i just get this feeling holding me back. thank you for that example it explains ALOT!

  303. Manna from Heaven

    “Because this place isn’t stodgy, and I value the opinions of many of the posters. Clearly not yours, since I generally hold the opinion of women in low regard. ”

    Um, who’s this addressed to, me? I’m a dude. But what you say about holding opinions in low regard is the same thing my wife says about men – me being the sole exception.

    “Islam gives the world 3 options; conversion, submission or death. Moslems should be given the same 3 options. God Himself being a big fan of exterminating and subjugation of non believers.”

    Again, addressing me? Where did I (or anyone else) talk about Islam? Genghis Khan was not a Muslim, if that is what you’re confused about. But since we’re (now) on the subject, I have got some Muslim friends. A Muslim in-law in my extended family too. I don’t find them any more annoying or filled with missionary zeal than us Christians. As long as they respect my religious choice, I respect the religious choice of others. If anyone tries to convert me, well then I’ll try to convert them also. I tend to shy away from proselytizers of any faith, including my own.

  304. Pingback: EG: The Dangers of a Long Engagement | Morning Sprinkles and Evening Gunfire

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  306. A very happy independent woman

    Lol this is the biggest bullshit i’ve ever read, just saying. I am an independent, very intelligent and even attractive woman and lead my own company. And yes you can have both. My boyfriend doesn’t control or lead me, but nevertheless he is very manly ;-) Woman simply like man, who know what THEY want, but don’t need to be controlled by them. We have a lot of sex. Sometimes he is dominant, sometimes I am when having sex, its like a game. But in everyday life we simply respect each other and are both on the same level.

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