Child”free” narcissistic women

Friday evening we went to Glen Arbor beach to watch the sunset as our vacation draws near its end.  We had our family plus my husband’s parents and aunt, his brothers and their wives, and all the young cousins.  I sat in my beach chair watching the children romp in the evening waves, chasing sand pipers and plovers, collecting pretty stones, and laughing together.  Come on, you know you want to see a couple of my vacation photos:

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Several of the happy cousins frolicking on the beach.

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A lovely view of sunset over Lake Michigan.

Such happy scenes of family fun will be increasingly rare in the future if present trends in childbearing continuing:

As I understand it, over the intervening few years since this Pew report, the rate of childlessness has continued to increase, with about 1 in 5 women ending their reproductive years never having had a child.  This is an incredibly high rate of childlessness – 20%.

In an article from this past fall by Jessica Valenti entitled Not Wanting Kids is Entirely Normal and published at The Atlantic, a woman named Gianna is quoted as saying:

“I love my son, but I hate being a mother. It has been a thankless, monotonous, exhausting, irritating and oppressive job. Motherhood feels like a prison sentence. I can’t wait until I am paroled when my son turns 18 and hopefully goes far away to college.” One D.C.-based mom even said that although she was against abortion before having her son, now she would “run to the abortion clinic” if she got pregnant again.

How can such a self-centered attitude arise among women?  If one is a Christian, one naturally considers that a woman’s primary concern will be for her family.  The Proverbs 31 woman is the quintessential example of this:

She looks well to the ways of her household
and does not eat the bread of idleness.
Her children rise up and call her blessed;
her husband also, and he praises her:
“Many women have done excellently,
but you surpass them all.”

In all things, including her business “career”, she is concerned with caring for her family and household.  Although she engages in many tasks, some domestic and some paid, her main goal in all of it is not to gratify her ego but rather to serve her family.

Laura Wood at the Thinking Housewife recently posted this picture:

Mrs. Wood writes:

TIME magazinchose an image of a couple lying on a beach for its latest promotion of childlessness by Lauren Sandler. Imagine if the magazine had chosen an image of old people languishing in a nursing home instead.

Mrs. Wood is referring to the recent Time magazine article with this cover:

Christians who actually follow the Bible believe that most women’s primary concern will be serving their husbands and caring for their children.  We understand that a woman who voluntarily chooses not to have children is generally going against her God-given nature and calling, unless she is part of that small group of women whom God chooses to fulfill other purposes.  We understand that voluntary childlessness without a God-given calling to it will warp a woman’s personality, causing her to become unhealthily self-focused.

But what if one is not religious?  Does a woman choosing to be childless (now euphemistically called child-free) make sense as just another lifestyle choice for these women?  No, it does not.  If one is an atheist or agnostic, one almost certainly believes in the entire Darwinian religious creed of the origin of the human species from the same common ancestors as all other life via evolution.  But how then can remaining childless make any sense at all?  The urge to reproduce must be intense – and in women, this is not the same urge as men have, which is primarily an urge for sexual intercourse.  In women, the desire to nurture offspring is (as it must be, under the Darwinian religion) innate and indeed, the entire focus of life.  A woman without this strong drive being biologically built in would not reproduce and would be weeded out of the gene pool very quickly.

Therefore, it is the same whether one is religious or irreligious: women have an intense, innate desire to bear and nurture children.  To suppress this desire requires cognitive machinations that have serious repercussions not only for the childless-by-choice woman but for all women around her.  She will become self-obsessed, chasing after fleeting and illusory pleasures, and by doing so, she influences the female herd around her, even the ones who have children.

This is a problem because the women with children would have been satisfied fulfilling the deep need women have to nurture their children if they did not see the illusion (for an illusion it is) of a childless-by-choice woman sipping fruity drinks with little paper umbrellas in them on an exotic beach.  This gives the women with children the illusory feeling that they are missing out on something sooper dooper fun that would have been more fulfilling than wiping running noses and cooking dinner.  They would not actually be more fulfilled, I think, but even if they were, nevertheless it warps a woman and turns her into a narcissist to chase after self-fulfillment rather than to focus on family nurturing.

A 2011 global study found that the more children couples over the age of 40 had, the happier they were, and their happiness level increased with each additional child.  However, there are also a number of other studies that have shown that parents of young children are less happy than non-parents.  Focusing on self-reported happiness measures at one point in time is not an accurate way to assess the effect of voluntarily childlessness on women.

A more accurate way of understanding the effect would be to look at rates of mental illness over women’s lifetimes.  Given that it is so very unnatural for women not to have husbands and children to care for, it takes an enormous amount of cognitive energy to maintain emotional equilibrium in that state.  I predict that we are going to see increasing rates of depression and other mental illnesses in older women as these trends continue.  Not only will women suffer the ill effects of remaining childless but because many of them will not be married, they will also have infrequent sexual intercourse as they hit middle age without a husband and their youthful beauty has faded.  These two factors will cause women to try to assuage their misery by becoming even more self-involved and materialistic; the emptiness of a life spent chasing after momentary, meaningless pleasure and vanity will ultimately be revealed in large numbers of older women who are depressed or otherwise mentally unstable.

394 thoughts on “Child”free” narcissistic women

  1. Pingback: Child”free” narcissistic women | House-Wife Sexuality

  2. sunshinemary Post author

    I want to be clear: there may be a few unusual women who are genetically abnormal and who do not possess a maternal instinct. These women are right not to have children. However, anti-childbearing campaigns are endemic in the leftist media. Liberals are nothing if not anti-child…anti-life, really. It is wrong to promote voluntary childlessness to women at large, most of whom actually do possess a maternal instinct. We should not organize our lives based on a few outliers.

  3. Miserman

    SSM,

    The problem is indeed narcissism. In my own drop of water in the bucket of time, I’ve seen women who have children and then detach themselves from the nurturing part, leaving children having to raise themselves. It is as if the parenting extends until the child can dress, feed, and clean themselves (about four years old) and then the child is on his / her own. I wonder why women even have children if they are not willing to invest the time and energy needed to nurture children in a descent household. Yet, fat, pissed off slobs find men to marry, have their babies, and then get the children into their own apartment before they are out of diapers (I’m exaggerating). These women care nothing for the children. They care only for the ties children create to the man and the emotional attention (the aww and ohh) they get for being “mommies.”

    Philosophically, I believe that one of the driving forces of female narcissism is an utter lack of gratitude toward the things of life. The resultant discontent and bitterness only serves to make an angry and miserable woman. Happiness would more likely be found if they believed that all things they have are undeserved and are given by a higher goodness.

  4. Ton

    I cannot speak to the girl side of the equation but most of the young men I know don’t want wives or kids. Way to many of them have seen what modern marriage is/ does to men 1st hand. It’s a double sided problem which will only get worse.

    Nothing is more depressing then an old folks home. I’ll go spear-fishing for great white sharks in South Africa before I allow anyone to warehouses me.

    I do think there are real and practical reasons for having small families these days and that some folks should have none but….. it’s just a fucked up world and a shit call to make either which way folks decided

  5. Farm Boy

    If women would be pleasant and make clear that this is what they want, then guys will be there.

  6. Farm Boy

    Yet, fat, pissed off slobs find men to marry, have their babies,

    The “have their babies” part is true.

    I am not so sure about the “marry” part

  7. Ton

    The drive for Whites to have no kids and/ or small families is a complex and ugly topic. Probably best not covered here, but I find it beyond interesting that “we” now call jobs teenagers use to do “jobs americans won’t do” & import a permanent underclass to do all the shit jobs teenagers use to do.

    A man should never expect gratitude from kids and women. Neither, as a rule, are.designed for it.

  8. Uncle Silas

    “I’ll go spear-fishing for great white sharks in South Africa before I allow anyone to warehouses me.”

    When the size of the unfunded liability burden of Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security smacks the American public in the face, people will finally realize there won’t be any money to warehouse the old, the debilitated, and the demented. Children will either take care of their elderly parents without federal government support, or the feds will euthanize the oldsters. If Americans can tolerate abortion, it takes only a little nudge to get them to accept euthanasia. I mean, it’s all for the collective good, man. Like, what does an Alzheimer reject really contribute? Dude, pass the bong!

  9. errantbuckeye

    ” This gives the women with children the illusory feeling that they are missing out on something sooper dooper fun that would have been more fulfilling than wiping running noses and cooking dinner.”

    And yet, what could be more exciting that bringing up children, nurturing them, and watching them grow? For being so common, it’s got to be quite a thrill.

    I’m not a father, but I do teach middle and high school boys and girls. I’ve at the same school in Korea for two years and it’s been a blast working with these kids. I and the other English teachers have helped the bashful become confident and the decent become fluent. And then some. Witnessing the students’ progress (in both the individual and the group) has been awe-inspiring. Maybe that’s what parenting is like?

    Many of the quotes in Valenti’s article make me sick. Those women are taking motherhood and making it sound like a death sentence. They whinge about losing their “sense of self” because a new life has entered the picture–hey, ladies, that’s how it works. Parenting is all about subsuming your desires for the good of the family and the kid. Or failing that, you and the kid. The “I” gets pushed aside. Deal with it. They’re thinking of what they think they’re missing out on versus the reality at hand–ie, what isn’t but what is.

  10. embracingourfemininity

    I love this post. I agree with it 100%.The topic of women having an innate desire to bear children has been on my mind the past few days too. I wrote a post yesterday in which I included why I believe this desire is one natural even for women who are not Christian. It seems many women like to say that the role of a woman as mothers and wives first, in Christianity is an oppressive one, but this opinion is completely contrary to what nature already indicates. Even for a woman who is not Christian, it does not make sense for her to deny that her body was designed for bearing children. Many women are in denial.

    Even the Christian women who remain childless because they have some other vocation, are normally still nurturing. I think women are hardwired to be nurturing even if they cannot have children themselves. The majority of women now lacking this desire is a by-product of feminist society, one that teaches women only to seek their own happiness, sadly they go about it in all the wrong ways.

  11. Morvena

    What if you’re afraid to have children for fear of becoming one of those resentful mothers? It’s difficult to be in the middle: on one side you have the “child free” advocates who try to shame and tempt women into not having children but on the other hand, I get women who act like I’m a freak or some sort of horrible monster because I don’t feel or act particularly drawn to children. This is sort of a sore spot with me (though I’m not upset at you, SSM).

  12. Ashley

    I don’t think there is a such thing as right and wrong in a woman choosing on whether or not she wants to have children. I don’t believe in condemning women for not having children, or labeling them as narcissistic, as if it’s always a bad thing. It’s also unfair especially to those women who can’t physically bear children. When I see families growing in poverty, I feel so sad for them, especially when they keep having more children they can’t afford and have to raise them on government funds, not only does it negatively impact the family, but it also hurts our economy.

  13. MargeryM

    I’m gad these women aren’t having children. If you look down on them like these women do they *shouldn’t* be having children. Honestly, though I truly believe it’s narcissism and a product of “me me me” culture that brings them to this conclusion it has to be the most inadvertently self-less thing that can do. Please, women more concerned with careers and looking pretty DON’T have children. Have you seen this woman’s take on it? http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/01/living/parents-irpt-zorka-no-kids She actually thinks she is persecuted for not wanting children. It’s laughable, really.

    @Ashley: “It’s also unfair especially to those women who can’t physically bear children.”

    No one said anything abut women who *can’t* have children. This is a red herring.

    “When I see families growing in poverty, I feel so sad for them, especially when they keep having more children they can’t afford and have to raise them on government funds, not only does it negatively impact the family, but it also hurts our economy.”

    This also has nothing to do with the issue being taken on here. For one the men and women opting out of having children are doing so in favor of money and things. They aren’t under privileged by any stretch of the imagination. Sure, some use the excuse that they can’t afford it like a couple read about that made near twice as much as my husband and I did when we had 3 kids and lived in an equally high cost of living area but that’s hogwash. They can’t afford to have children *in luxury*. Huge difference.

    Can’t afford it, the environment, worries of being a bad parent, the “my family sucked” line… all of these are poor excuses 9 times out of 10 that people use because they just don’t want kids. Arguing that it’s okay that they don’t based on some people not being able to afford them makes no logical sense, either.

  14. Farm Boy

    I don’t believe in condemning women for not having children, or labeling them as narcissistic

    Other than those who physically cannot, it is at least a bit narcissistic. Just a matter of degree.

  15. Farm Boy

    When I see families growing in poverty

    The is a poor line of reasoning. My Mother’s family has 7 children, and were raised in much greater material poverty than what is considered to be poor today. They all grew up to be productive citizens.

    I grew up in poverty also, with many siblings. Same story. And we were happy.

    In modern times, poverty is more about attitudes and behaviors, rather than lack of money.

  16. Ashley

    MargeryM, even if thery were just “excuses” it doesn’t matter. No one needs an excuse to not want children either. If they don’t want children, then they just don’t. If you want children, great for you but who is anyone to pass judgement onto those who don’t even if they are just being selfish. No one else gets to decide whether or not it’s right or wrong.

  17. AmyJ

    Several of my friends have chosen to not have children, for various reasons. What’s interesting is that the women, and occasionally the men, pour all of their love into their pets. They take them on trips, they get professional portraits of them framed and hung, and they throw them birthday parties. I love my two dogs and two cats, but they in no way have brought me the joy I feel on a daily basis carrying my first child in my womb (24 weeks today) – and he hasn’t even been born yet. Pets seem to end up being a way to purge maternal instincts while not “sacrificing” their career or playtime. It’s sick.

  18. MargeryM

    @Ashley: I honestly don’t care whether or not someone wants children. However, these excuses are being painted in a way to be valid reasons not have children to which, in turn, is convincing people who otherwise do want children that it’s a bad idea and any reasonable and responsible human being would opt out of it. That’s a problem.

  19. MargeryM

    @AmyJ: ” Pets seem to end up being a way to purge maternal instincts while not “sacrificing” their career or playtime.”

    I have noticed this, too, and it is on my last nerve. Children aren’t deserving of patience, love, and affection but you better believe Sally should be able to bring her “baby” aka dog with her wherever she goes. I especially love it when they refer to themselves as “Mommy” to their dogs. Yikes.

  20. MargeryM

    @FarmBoy: I completely agree with you about poverty these days. Poverty in America is having one beat up car and a dated X-Box. It’s ridiculous. I do understand that there are those that live in true poverty but they aren’t the majority. Bringing them up in this debate doesn’t hold water. Having children doesn’t mean falling into the very real kind of poverty people are so afraid of.

  21. Ashley

    MargeryM, I understand if you are concerned with whether or not people are making informed and logical decisions to become parents or not, and I understand why you would be irritated by those who are trying to convince others to not have children and uses those excuses as a way of persuading them. I just want to suggest not placing the blame on the motherless for that. I wish I had a dime for every time a woman with children warned me to “not have kids! No, don’t do it!” because she wasn’t happy.

  22. MargeryM

    @Ashley: I get a lot of flack for having a lot of kids and staying home with them, to boot. But I get just as often women looking at my kids and saying “I wish I could have done that.” or “Now that’s the life.” But they don’t because they feel that they *can’t*. I have pressed them and they say it’s the job and/or the money 9 times out of 10. That’s heartbreaking. The women telling you not to have kids will probably change their tune depending on when you are engaging with them. Being a mom is hard. There are days where I am ready to stick them in the front yard with a For Sale sign (joking, of course). But I will say that there is a growing number of women who regret having kids. Not because kids are awful but because they are being fed the same lies. Career! Money! Happiness! They are told they are lacking because they have had kids and they internalize that message. I have watched this happen with my friends who decide they are miserable because they were told they should be, get divorced, send the kids off to daycare and with Dad every other week, and then figure out they were way happier before. In the past year I have watched this scenario play out among 3 different families. Tragic. This is what the child-free push does to people.

  23. Frank

    I’ve noticed women who prioritize their self actualization/careers over marriage also don’t seem to have much of a desire to have kids either. They’re a dime a dozen round these parts.

  24. Sarah's Daughter

    Future Time orientation must play a large role in this.

    We fail as parents and friends if we focus on telling our daughters and other women they will just love being a stay at home mommy to a toddler or an adolescent. Chances are quite good they won’t. It’s a lot of work and commitment. With the exception of when they were just born, I’ve enjoyed each stage my children have gone through more than the last one. In order to have really great parent/adult children relationships (where the majority of your life will be spent together), you’ve got to go through the work that gets you there.

    Eventually baby boomers will be honest and forthright about what miserable failures they were when they as a generation abdicated their roles and responsibilities of raising their progeny themselves. It’s very difficult to feel pity for our aging boomers who are still selfishly taking all they can get without concern for future generations. Cat’s in the cradle.

  25. Guest

    It’s OK for men to reject marriage, but it’s wrong for women to reject having children?

    And women should have lots of kids they really don’t want at all? And that would be a good thing?

  26. Guest

    And what about the paternal instinct? So many men do not want any kids or more kids. Or they complain about or refuse to support the ones they have. Or they desert the children because they are mad at the mom. Are they bad too?

  27. Leap of a Beta

    Anyone else find that the childless women are usually one of two things? The first that they’re incredibly physically attractive, with desires to use that attractiveness to get the ‘dream’ lifestyle of a narcissist. Or they’re incredibly unattractive and use not wanting to have kids as an excuse to not work on making themselves physically or emotionally appealing. They’re the fat acceptance movement tied up into the childless movement as well. They’d rather enjoy a cupcake than a husband and kids. Honestly I find more of those than I do of physically attractive women not wanting children.

  28. Jenny

    I wonder how many of those women just haven’t had the opportunity to have children. Maybe wanting children and not having them could lead to a big focus on a career. I guess I can see that there are other reasons for not having children other than being a purely selfish person.

    I like children but I don’t have any and won’t unless I get married. I think it would be more selfish, for me, to have a child as a single person.

  29. Morvena

    @MargeryM – I’m sorry that people have given you a hard time for being a SAHM. It’s funny that feminists argue that women should be free to make the choice whether to be a SAHM or not, but the subtle and sometimes not-so-subtle message is that you really shouldn’t because it’s a waste of your potential.

    I don’t appreciate the implication that fear is just an excuse, even though you weren’t addressing me specifically. For the record, my husband and I will have children (or at least try), but I would be lying if I said that the concept didn’t scare me a bit. It’s just about the biggest responsibility to ever take on and I want to do it right, you know?

  30. dave1941

    Liberals don’t believe in Darwin except when they mock conservatives for not believing in Darwin. Here’s an insightful quote from the 1952 book “The Next Million Years” by Charles Galton Darwin, grandson of the famous naturalist:

    In the essential matter of survival there are two things needed, the survival of the individual and the survival of the race. We are all very well endowed with deep instincts for both, and curiously enough we are ashamed of both these instincts. As to the survival of the individual we have a very strong, intimate and deep fear of death, evoked by any form of danger; it is not a thing we boast about, but it is certainly a very essential quality for survival, and as such it is to be regarded as important and valuable. For the reproduction of the race, there are two instincts needed, the sexual and the parental, and the way these are organized is to say the least curious. The sexual instinct, though much complicated by all sorts of taboos, is for most of mankind nearly as violent as the fear of death, though it has the advantage of being pleasant instead of unpleasant. Among animals it brings about the inevitable consequence of reproduction, and until very recently the same was true for man, so that the Malthusian increase of population was assured. This is still true for a large proportion of the human race, but the existence of birth-control has entirely altered the situation among the more highly developed peoples. The consequence has been to make reproduction depend for them not on an intense instinctive impulse, but rather on intellectual reasoning, and this for very many people is an exceedingly tepid motive.

    The parental instinct is also somewhat ineffective, because for the majority it is only strongly stimulated by the presence of the children; that is to say, it is very important in preserving them, but it does not make any such clamant call on the emotions to beget them. It has not the same intensive compulsion as the sexual instinct, and this is not very surprising because of its very different function. No one can feel any very intense emotion continuously for more than a short time; whether it is pleasure or pain, anger or grief or fear, the sharp edge of it fades in a few days, whereas the parental instinct has got to work effectively for fifteen or twenty years, if it is to serve the survival of the race. It is therefore hardly surprising that it should be steady and continuous, but not so intense an instinct as the sexual instinct or as the fear of death.

    … As has been already pointed out, man’s present procreative instincts are failing to reproduce the species in sufficient numbers in many of the more civilized nations. Any of mankind that overcome this failing will increase at the expense of the rest, and there is already a germ for natural selection to work on in the spontaneous wish of some people for children. Whether this reinforcement of the procreative instinct should be dignified by a new specific name I do not know, but, long before the end of a million years, it is almost certain that homo sapiens will have changed into homo paediphilus.

  31. Morvena

    As an aside to the men, better be ready because the issue of having children or not is right up there with the merits of breastfeeding or not and shaved/fuzzy crotches for making the fur fly amongst women.

  32. archerwfisher

    What’s wrong with not having any kids, in this day and age? Granted, there is the downside that you’d be more fatalistic, because kids keep people young/give them a faint sense of immortality (anchors them to life even after they have passed) but with how the USA is going? I think it would be almost child cruelty for most mid-20′s people to have kids. And studies have shown, marriage gets a lot harder after having a child.

    Not to mention, for a guy, getting married and having a kid is a very risky thing to do.

    Though me personally, I’m half considering adopting when I get older. Heck, look at male forms of entertainment, like videogames, comics, etc. Adopting as a single dad is pretty much what’s being marketed to guys my age (18-24 age group) through so many story lines. And for good reason, haha.

  33. MargeryM

    @Morvena: I view fear as an excuse in this particular instance because fear is a natural and normal part of life not an indication of *actual* danger, failure, etc. Someone who says they are afraid of x, y, or z when it comes to being a parent or having children are afraid of sucking it up and moving forward. Think of it like the little kid too afraid to go to Kindergarten. Do we forgo his education because he’s too afraid? Do we allow him to stay locked up at home because he’s too afraid? Or do we push him to conquer his fears by facing them? (Note: I’m a homeschooling mom so I’m not trying to say the opposite of going to Kindergarten is not being educated. I’m just trying to make a point about fear in general). It’s completely normal to be afraid. My question is why has it become okay to pander to that fear and refuse to move?

    To be fair there is legitimate fear. Like the fear that you will have a child with x painful disease because it runs in your family or that your mental disorder is a threat to them, etc. Those are fears for safety not fear of discomfort and having to change.

  34. MargeryM

    @archerwfisher: “What’s wrong with not having any kids, in this day and age?”

    If we want our society to improve, survive, to thrive we have to inject it with new life. When people refuse to have children in large numbers societies as a whole suffer. I get that things are bad now but the answer isn’t to throw our hands up in the air and refuse to offer *something* to breathe new life into society as a whole. And that’s exactly what children are, new life. Could you imagine what would have happened if every time things got bad people just stopped having kids? We wouldn’t have made any progress, that’s what.

  35. lagunabeachfogey

    I see this all the time out and about in OC. How so many attractive women can remain childless, is beyond me. Many of them, in my experience, are on the verge of serious depression, and drug and alcohol abuse is very common. It seems, from my observations, to be predominantly a European-American phenomenon. More than narcissism, it’s a racial and therefore cultural problem, an absence of confidence in our civilisation and a lack of hope.

  36. RICanuck

    SSM,

    I do have one minor bone to pick here: “The urge to reproduce must be intense – and in women, this is not the same urge as men have, which is primarily an urge for sexual intercourse.” I agree we do have one hell of a sex drive, but it is not just sex drive, alone, depending upon the woman involved.

    I made the following comment on the Spearhead last your on a gay marriage post, in response to another commenter:
    “@Jennifer Thieme

    “The entire reason we need marriage is for husbands and wives to bear and raise children within the safety of their own families. ”

    Now Jennifer, how does No Fault Divorce help husbands and wives raise children within the safety of their own families? There are far more children being raised without the safety of their own families because of no fault divorce, than because Daddy thought Brucie has a cute butt.

    Tell a man he needs marriage? No! He wants marriage. I wanted marriage, but it was hard to articulate why. I read the novel “Trente Arpents” and the main character, Charis Moisan, looked at his wife carrying eggs from the henhouse, looked forward to supper with his children gathered around, and thought to himself, “I made this. I built this. I love them, will work for them and if need be, will die for them.”

    Jennifer, do you really believe that “gay marriage” will crush this very male sentiment? Do you really believe a young man can confidently yearn for this sentiment in a world of No Fault Divorce?”

    Yes we like sex, and variety too, but may of us wish to be our own domestic patriarchs, and sacrificing sexual variety is a small price to pay for it. I think most men would like children. As the philosopher Don de Marco once wrote, “The only way for most men to glimpse eternity is through a woman’s womb”. If young men wish to avoid children it is because of the current economy’s poor prospects, as well as the social and legal environment.

    I think more women than women, wish to avoid children. Unless, as is possible, they just do not want children from the man they are with.

  37. happyhen11

    As a 38 year old woman who has been trying to have babies since she was 25, who wanted a house full of children but has only been able to conceive and give birth to one (but we keep on trying), let me remind women who are married or even single but “career minded” and looking for “the right time” etc etc, there is no magical time, there is no assurance that you will be able to have babies WHEN you want to have babies. The heartbreak of infertility and recurrent miscarriage is real, it is painful. It is not something women talk about but it is something many many women go through, sometimes with a viable medical reason and treatment options and sometimes with no answers ever (I’m in the later category.) Please don’t wait. You may not have a second chance.

  38. Farm Boy

    Using your logic, welfare mothers with 12 kids are super-happy.

    Well, they must have liked something, because they kept coming back for more.

    Tingles and dollars, I suppose

  39. Miserman

    The feminine-decadent culture of the twenty-first century makes it very hard for me to be against abortion. Selfish, immature parents raise children into bad adults.

  40. Farm Boy

    I think that I will christen Farm Boy’s second law,

    Poverty is defined more by attitudes and behavior than by the lack of money.

  41. Farm Boy

    SSM,

    Perhaps you should do a companion post about all of the guys who would have made good fathers if the women were not busy creating thugspawn.

  42. Farm Boy

    Using your logic, welfare mothers with 12 kids are super-happy.

    Upon further thought, the law of diminishing returns applies.

    It probably kicks in earlier for the welfare types.

  43. Morvena

    It’s likely a personal failing on my part, but I admit that it does get my hackles up when it feels like people say, “You NEED to have children”. I always thought that such a thing was supposed to be a personal decision between a married couple and God. I won’t lie, neither my husband or I like change very much, so there’s some fear of the change that comes with having children. I know next to nothing about taking care of children or babies since I’ve never been in a position to take care of one – I’m the youngest sibling, the youngest grandchild, and living in a rural area meant that there weren’t any neighbors down the street who had kids to babysit, so there’s some fear that I’ll manage to harm a baby out of ignorance. There’s the fear that I won’t be able to connect with a child because I don’t feel “drawn” to them, for lack of a better way to explain it. I don’t hate them, I don’t want them to get hurt, but I don’t feel compelled to pick them up or talk to them or make a fuss over them. I feel awkward with older kids because I never know what to say to them or do around them. There’s the fear that I’ll do something or say something to mess them up forever or that they’ll travel down the wrong path as adults despite our best efforts as parents. A lot of it is a mental thing; once it comes down to it I’ll probably feel just like most of the moms that post here probably felt when they had their children and I’ll look back at laugh at myself for being silly and worrying about it so much. And yes, MargeryM is right in that you can’t let fear of failure keep you from entering the race, so to speak. But I’m still human and so I still fear at times.

    On the more practical side of things, I do agree that if a couple wants children, then they should get started on it relatively quickly due to potential issues with infertility such as what happyhen11 has had to go through. Oh, and for pete’s sake, don’t marry someone if you have opposing views on children because it’s unlikely you’ll be able to magically change your spouse’s mind and you’re liable to end up with the wife seeking a sperm donor elsewhere or the husband getting a secret vasectomy or something…or divorce, even if the first two scenarios don’t happen.

  44. Farm Boy

    large numbers of older women who are depressed or otherwise mentally unstable.

    Perhaps one does need the word “older”

  45. Farm Boy

    women who prioritize their self actualization

    What does the bible say about self actualization?

  46. Farm Boy


    And what about the paternal instinct? So many men do not want any kids or more kids. Or they complain about or refuse to support the ones they have. Or they desert the children because they are mad at the mom. Are they bad too?

    For once, Guest is correct. They are bad; so bad that they generate the tingles.

  47. Farm Boy

    And women should have lots of kids they really don’t want at all?

    And why is it that they don’t want kids?

    Could feminist propaganda be a factor?

  48. handbanana

    men are refusing to walk into the meat grinder by having children, so now women want to act like they are “choosing” not to have kids either.

  49. archerwfisher

    MargeryM

    Problem is, having kids isn’t going to fix what’s wrong in the USA. You want to fix what’s wrong in the USA, you’d need a small army of professional assassins. I think many people can sense the impending doom that our leaders are bringing upon us–and especially at my generation, the 18-24.

    Combine that with how sitting at a blackjack table in Vegas with 5k is less financially risky than marriage, why would people like us feel like getting married and having kids?

    I was flipping through Reader’s Digest, and one ‘letter to the editor’ summarized how we feel about things.

    “You said in your article about Generation Y that ‘they’re redefining success.’ From where I stand, success doesn’t look like a realistic goal, just survival.”

    Things won’t change in the USA until some huge devastation or war forces a change. Look at why the Muslim in the White House got elected–ever “nigga” (I’ve been informed only the ‘er’ version is offensive) voted for him, all the mexicans/central americans our traitorous leaders have been bringing in, and a clear majority of white women, because Obama won the slut vote.

    Who is going to want to have small children in 10-15 years when complete and utter devastation finally hits us, in one form or another?

  50. Bob Wallace

    My experience with childless unmarried women is that by middle-age they really do turn into scrawny dried-up spinsters/old maids. Some become slightly overweight, and most are on psychiatric medication. The usually have the cat(s). They got hostile toward men and blame their problems on them.

    As for the nursing homes….I worked in two in college. Eye-opening experience, and no way to live the end of your life. One of my friends recently told me he looked up his favorite teacher in high school – unmarried, childless – and found she was in a nursing home. She begged him to come visit her. Unfortunately, he couldn’t.

    But I’ve seen it many times. Women in nursing homes – because women outlive men – rarely have visitors. Some of the women, if they get dotty, start to hallucinate they have children. They wander around looking for them or else wait by the door looking for them.

  51. MargeryM

    @archerwfisher: “Problem is, having kids isn’t going to fix what’s wrong in the USA.”

    Sure, but *not* having kids isn’t going to, either. In fact, it could do much more harm.

    “Who is going to want to have small children in 10-15 years when complete and utter devastation finally hits us, in one form or another?”

    Can you absolutely guarantee that this is going to happen to our children? Because people have been asking this question for a very long time and yet that complete and utter devastation has yet to come. We can’t live based on “what if?”s.

  52. MargeryM

    To clarify I am not saying one *has to* or *needs to* have children at all. I do believe that there are many people in this world that shouldn’t have children and believe that children are not a must for good healthy people. That is not what I am trying to say here.

  53. Sarah's Daughter

    Morvena,
    You’re not alone in your concerns. I didn’t have a clue when I became pregnant with our first child. We weren’t planning for it to happen and we were broke. I remember the concerns I had of how drastically this would change our lives and if I would make a good parent. Time flew so fast I really didn’t have time to worry if I was doing everything right. And thankfully the internet just became available so I wasn’t able to read the 5 million things I was doing wrong as a parent. When I was pregnant with the second, same thing, only this time I was worried if I’d be able to love the second like I loved the first. Turns out, there’s room for more in a mother’s heart. By the time I was pregnant again 9 months after the second one was born (all of them were unplanned) it was old hat.
    What I didn’t expect was how fun they would be at the ages they are now having been brought up they way were. The relationships I have with them can not be compared to any others I have in life. Very unique and cherished.

  54. archerwfisher

    I think, if anything, not having kids would speed things along towards a possible restart. I hate to sound racist (well, no I don’t, actually) but why should white Americans keep paying for illegal immigrants from mexico to get free healthcare (now subsidized by Obamacare, if I recall) and bastard negro children?

    If the host shrinks, some of the parasites will die off. It’s natural order. Less kids by whites means a dramatically shrinking economy, and credit line for the USA, which means trillions can’t keep getting borrow to pay for illegitimate negro kids and muslims radicals in Africa and free birth control. Once welfare checks stop getting issued… well, you get the idea.

    And no, I can’t promise you when the boom is coming. But in all seriousness…

    The national debt is at 16.8 trillion dollars. We’re running a trillion dollar deficit yearly. Combine that with how Obamacare is going to just murder the economy.

    China is growing their economy at quite proud rate, and is specifically growing their military to fight the American military.

    Combine that with the massive immigration, legal and illegal, being forced upon Americans by our treacherous leaders. As well as massive arming of all branches of the Federal government, from the IRS outfitting their people with ar-15′s, to Social Security needing assault rifles, to 2700 armored personal carriers being purchased by the Department of Homeland Security.

    As Matthews 24:19 says, “How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!”

  55. Dr. Faust

    10% of all marriages in the world today are between first cousins. I discovered this tid while looking up Darwin because he married his first cousin. There appears to be some debate over whether the spawn of cousin mating harms the children. In the past, it was even a more common practice then it is today and was considered normal among the aristocratic families.

    Mother nature is a cruel bitch who cares nothing for sentimentality or feelings. She cares only for survival so anyone who doesn’t reproduce is a failure in her eyes. While George Washington will one day be forgotten since he lives only in the memories of man your genetic lineage will outlive his memory.

    The baby boom generation is what you get when you spoil children. There has never been a more pampered and coddled generation. In the coming years the electorate will be made up of mostly young mexicans and old baby boomers. Surprisingly, they will both vote mostly democratic and support more and more welfare programs. The boomers won’t vote out any candidate who even mentions social security reform. The boomers are the entitled generation and they plan on siphoning the life out of their own children so that they never have to go a day without.

  56. Dr. Faust

    Things are similar to the USSR. The boomers think the younger generations are just like them. They’re wrong. They young are not optimistic about the future. Why should they be? They’re in student loan debt, lacking any real skills, and are saddled with a huge, unpayable debt in the form of social security. Their chances of getting married and having children is all but diminished and a significant amount of them are doped out of the eyeballs on dangerous medication. There is nothing to hope for.

    But the main reason why people aren’t having children is because they don’t need to. They have social security, so they think, to pay for them. They have cradle to grave welfare programs to support them.

    I just recently got on SSI which is the government dole. I got it for “mental illness” and now I have a paycheck for the rest of my life. I have full health insurance, free cell phone, reduced rent, a food card, vouchers for gasoline, etc. I make more than someone working a fulltime job on minimum wage. I’ll probably never pay taxes.

    Why would I?

    It’s unlikely I’ll get married or have children. Who would marry me? And I can live comfortably how I am now, smoke cigars, and play videogames in a puddle of my own semen until I’m 90. What could anyone offer me that is better than that? Go to work at some job I hate? If women actually enjoy their careers, enjoy work, then they should do them. Give women all of the jobs. Women are brain dead if they think this intimidates men. I get a sick sense of pleasure from the idea of a feminist career woman paying for me to jerk off to internet porn.

    I’ve hated every job I’ve ever had. It never filled me with a sense of purpose. It didn’t fulfill my life or my soul. It was always something that I needed to do. Now I’m free of all that. I can work if I feel like it and you know what? I don’t like working. I’m not like Dr. Illusion who likes his job. The money would be nice though.

  57. archerwfisher

    Sarah’s Daughter

    Hmm, we could go with the “death by a thousand leeches.” Would you rather white Americans all slave away, have plenty of kids, pay crippling taxes to support the welfare state, and personally fund all the welfare for blacks and mexicans out of our own pockets? Or maybe it’ll end up like the White Genocide in South Africa, Zimbabwe.

    I say, screw that. Something drastic aside, this path we’re on leads to doom for the USA that was a world power. How are you going to stop the path? Having kids? Even if 500,000 white American women got pregnant with twins tomorrow, and could afford it–how is that going to help stop the leaders who are desperate to screw us over ASAP? Look at the outcries over “sequester.” which was actually just “we’ll cut a little out of the automatic spending increases.” You think the USA as we know it will be around in 18 years?

    Better yet, you think our government wants the white majority to have any power? Why do you think our own federal government, including the court systems, clamp down to insane degrees on any states trying to enforce immigration laws, or even voter ID laws? It’s government approved and forced de-facto immigration and voter fraud to prevent people like you and me from voting and making a difference.

    Working hard, having kids, trying to “get out the vote” won’t save this country. This path leads to a future where the USA is dead and gone. So you either accept doom, or try another strategy.

  58. Dr. Faust

    The national debt is at 16.8 trillion dollars. We’re running a trillion dollar deficit yearly. Combine that with how Obamacare is going to just murder the economy.

    Yah but most of that debt is paid to the Fed. I don’t understand that. How can a nation be indebted to itself. Can’t the fed just erase all of that debt?

    There’s also the petrol dollar. The USD is pegged as world reserve currency because of its status in the oil economy. While it lost its place as a gold backed dollar it now serves as a oil back dollar since the 70s. Oil is priced in dollars. The US spends so much on defense because it needs a military to support the oil dollar.

    I don’t know about a war with china. I’ve read that China is going to challenge the USD as the petrol dollar by pricing oil in its own currency. They’ve already made deals with Russia concerning this. I think this would lead to a war with that country but I can’t be certain. People have been predicting WW3 since WW2 ended. I’m sick of predictions now because after the Mayan 2012 failure I’m sick of thinking something bad is going to happen and it never does. As a species, we really love to revel in our own demise and knowing that we are all bias to one degree or another I can’t ever say who is right.

    Some people think we’ve recovered and that the economy is going to be great and that we’ll all live in our peaceful feminist matriarchy for all of time.

  59. RICanuck

    @ Dr. Faust,

    The bottomless money well is running dry. Your SSI will disappear one day. I make no predictions when, but it will happen. You said Social Security is unpayable, well SSI is part of Social Security. If you are still young, you will outlive it. Free advice is worth what you pay for it, so take the following for what it’s worth.

    Develop a marketable skill. Preferably something that takes time to come to fruition, such as malting, or curing tobacco. The future warlords will need to keep you alive until the corn malt is distilled. Develop a network of productive people who will have your back.

    Once the SSI stops, I will be too busy with me and mine to give a flying fornication about you.

  60. jack

    I think a lot of women would be more enthusiastic about marriage and children if they could secure a true alpha, get the alpha seed and live in what they believe will be perpetual “tingle”.

    You have to make your own soul mate from raw materials. When another human being thrills you that greatly, it is a sign that they are really out of your league, and it is the thrilling idea of winning the sexual lottery that is producing the butterflies.

    Media and modern culture has warped the picture that women have in their minds, thus convincing them that if they can’t marry an alpha, they won’t marry at all.

    Once again, it always comes down to apex effect and the distaste women have for average men.

  61. Dr. Faust

    The future warlords will need to keep you alive

    I don’t care if they do. I don’t plan on surviving a collapse. If this world doesn’t offer me anything I’m interested in I doubt anything the future will. But it’s the fact that I don’t think a collapse will happen anyway or won’t be bad. I just see a slow slide into feudalism with no recovery, everyone will either live in Martha’s Vineyard or Detroit. But my biggest fear is that something won’t happen not that something does.

  62. Happyhen

    “What I didn’t expect was how fun they would be at the ages they are now having been brought up they way were. The relationships I have with them can not be compared to any others I have in life. Very unique and cherished.”

    So true. Being a parent is scary but the rewards really can’t be measured.

  63. Dr. Faust

    The main reason people don’t want to have children is because they are children. Cradle to grave social programs ensure that no one needs to ever grow up or assume responsibility for anything.

  64. Carlotta

    And this is why we have strollers for dogs and cats and adukt women in public with fake newborn dolls pretending they are real. You can only fight biology so long.

  65. FuzzieWuzzie

    Morvena,
    Now that you’ve heard from Sarah’s Daughter and Happyhen, can I say that your fears seem healthy? You take this business seriously. That’s good, you’ll be responsible.

    archerwfisher,
    Someone has been predicting the end of the world since Nero was Emperor. I’ll take the word of Jesus on it. Didn’t He say that none know the time save the Father in Heaven? Leave it htere.
    While we’re headed for trouble, I’m hoping to see a correction soon. Things can’t go on as they are.

    In response to the original post, it occurrs to me that we are in a matriarchal society by default. From conception on, women have absolute control over reproduction. For whatever reason, this society is sick. This can’t continue.

  66. Dr. Faust

    There is a part of me that revels in the hatred of others. When I read about a bitter, man-hating, lesbian feminist, at least I know where I stand. That is to say it is a hopeless cause. We are enemies and can never be anything but enemies. It is the other females, the ones who I look at and think, maybe she could love me, that causes me to hope and in hope I cling to this last vestige of humanity within me. If all of the human species rejected me outright I would be free of any need to be anything other than who I am. It’s only when I want someone to like me that I restrain myself from being a beast.

    I wonder how much this is true of all people. How much of our personality is really just a desperation to fit in? Love me. Love me. Please someone love me. If no one loved you and you could still live then you could be free.

  67. sunshinemary Post author

    FW

    Someone has been predicting the end of the world since Nero was Emperor. I’ll take the word of Jesus on it. Didn’t He say that none know the time save the Father in Heaven?

    Well said, sir.

  68. AtroposHeart

    Imaginary Gods of Darwin, this is such fail.

    A failure of mental health knowledge.

    A failure at Atheist women. Which I proudly am one

    A failure at evolution. I just wanted to stab a fork at something for the tern Darwain religion. No one worships Darwin. Atheists do not have temples were they sacrifice cute babies and lambs in the name of Darwin.

    Just an all around fail, then again, this is [redacted foul language - ssm] Mary, so what else is new?

  69. FuzzieWuzzie

    AtroposHeart,
    Didn’t Darwin have trouble with his theory of natural selection? To begin with, I thought he was devout. From a scientific standpoint, it’s only a piece of the puzzle. It doesn’t account for sudden and catastrophic change from natural disasters.
    Didn’t Einstein object to Quantum Mechanics with the statement: “God does not play dice with the universe.”.
    I have to feel sorry for atheists. By their nature, they’re not organized, there’s no tradition, and they have to deal with being infiltrated by feminists.

  70. FuzzieWuzzie

    SSM,
    If I could, I’d post the GIF of the Ewoks bowing.
    Not too bad for a fallen away parochial school boy.

  71. AtroposHeart

    I have no idea what you mean with Darwin’s theory not counting for sudden change, but for the Einstein quote. Here is the thing Eistien was WRONG about quantum mechanics because it is true.

    Well, I feel sorry for religious people who have to follow the traditions of bronze age goat herders instead of critical thinking skills for themselves

  72. Dr. Faust

    Well, I feel sorry for religious people who have to follow the traditions of bronze age goat herders instead of critical thinking skills for themselves

    They were shepherds. But just because God doesn’t exist doesn’t mean the bible is a book of all lies.

  73. theshadowedknight

    When the end of the world is described, it is referring to the end of the world as we know it. A slide down, with the fading of the comforts and protections of today. A world where law is made by the strong and enforced upon the weak. A world where the power is unreliable or even unavailable. A world where if you do not work hard, you die. That is what happens if we do not get together and fix this. Even worse if there is a sudden collapse, which means that approximately nine of every ten people dies in the first year. That is the threat, and if you do not respect it, it will crush you without ever noticing. Deal with it properly, and you can come out on the other side.

    The End Times are a whole different kind of bad. That is coming on its own time, and we cannot guarantee or prevent it. The only way you can be ready is to get with God, and pledge yourself to his service. He is the only one getting anyone through the events of Revelations.

    The Shadowed Knight

  74. Ashley

    “Yeah, but God does! Think about THAT, Ashley…”

    What’s worse, a woman that doesn’t want a child or people who shame and condemn people for not living up to their standards. I’m not religious for this very reasons. There’s too many people shaming others for not sinning in the same ways they do.

  75. Dr. Faust

    A world where law is made by the strong and enforced upon the weak.

    That is what the law has been and will forever be. Power flows out of the barrell of a gun.

    The collapse that you describe is just a replacement of the current regime with the guns for a new regime with guns.

  76. Ton

    In the self absorbed, self centered world we live in, being poor is the worst possible fate

    There are good legal reasons why a man should not marry ( I hand over 1300 of them a month to a woman who was unfaithful and all around horrible wife). The same legal conditions don’t exist for women. That guest can ignore the legally reality and equate it to children proves what a cunt she is

    Woman can have children or import a 3rd world underclass to prop up various government ponzi schemes… a very criminally mined underclass at that.

    The Fed is a for profit private business and not an extension of the amercian people or federal government. Any adult who doesn’t know that should be barred from voting and branded on the forehead.

    The usa is headed for some bad bad times. It might be completely genetic and natural to not want kids when better days are generations away.

    The end of the usa is not the end of the world. The Bible tells us nations will rise and fall, that there will be wars and plagues, droughts and famine chaos and destruction etc etc that have nothing to do with Christ’s return.

    Women #1 breastfeed #2 keep your girl parts trimmed up. Men prefer a clean work space and perform better in a clean work environment. Don’t matter if it’s a desk, work shop, garage floor or ………. #3 stop making your own damn decisions. Most of y’all have a terrible decision making track record.

  77. Lisa in Vermont

    Personally, I think it’s a good thing that these self-proclaimed selfish couples are deciding not to have children.

    I love my children. Their birth days were the happiest days of my life. But it takes an exhausting amount of work and resources to raise them properly. A selfish person would not be able to give a child what he/she needs to thrive.

    There are enough unwanted and unloved children being born every day. We don’t need to guilt anyone into creating more.

    As far as the effect that having children has on reported levels of happiness, there are a lot of factors to consider. For instance, did the study differentiate between childless couples who were childless by choice and couples that were childless due to infertility?

    Also, not everyone who lives in a nursing home is there because they are childless. My daughter volunteers at a local nursing home with our church youth group. Many of the people she’s befriended have photos of their children and grandchildren in their rooms.

    In most cases they have dementia, which would make it difficult for an adult child who is still working fulltime to provide the round-the-clock care they require.

  78. Hannah

    This Child’free’ business is all very popular right now – not surprisingly as in fits in with society’s obsession with youth. Everyone wants to be young forever so people aren’t maturing naturally anymore. Fighting against nature must be one of the stages of denial!
    Talking about having no children BY CHOICE really comes down to this question: Do we believe it is right to use birth control or do we not?
    Does it go against the word of God or doesn’t it?
    Is God in control or are we? Do we trust God enough to put that trust into action?

    “Thy wife shall be as a fruitful vine by the sides of thine house: thy children like olive plants round thy table. Behold, that thus shall the man be blessed that feareth the LORD… yea, thou shalt see thy children’s children, and peace upon Israel.
    Psalm 128:3-4,6
    “Children’s children are the crown of old men; and the glory of children are their fathers.”
    Proverbs 17:6
    “I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.”
    1 Timothy 5:14

    God set up the covenant of marriage – not humans.
    In His divine wisdom he allowed sexual intimacy only within marriage. This most often naturally results in children. Children are a blessing from the Lord.
    Those unable to have children have my sincere pity.
    The blessing of a godly marriage is in the expansion of a godly family. A blessed man will train up sanctified seed for God.
    Getting married is making yourself available to have babies.
    Children are a blessing from God – who are we to cut them out of our ‘plans’?!
    Who are we to tell our creator that He got it wrong because we don’t ‘feel’ like having children?!

    The insult to God grieves my spirit.
    “There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.”
    Proverbs 14:12

    I am of the opinion that women should not bring her own agenda to the covenant of marriage.
    She can have hopes but ought to hold them lightly.
    This conscious self-discipline by a woman paves the way for gratitude and thankfulness and contentment. These are KEY!
    To be a woman worthy of a man – a woman needs to be prepared to do whatever it is HE wants in their life together.
    Hopefully he wants children. Perhaps he does not. This is between him and God.
    Women should not come to marriage with expectations and a checklists of her own desires – it is my thought that this is rooted in selfish pride.
    God shapes a woman through her role in serving her husband.
    Upon marriage, a female is choosing to join a man in HIS world!
    If he wants a quiverful of children – praise God!
    If he wants his children homeschooled you drop any expectations of ‘time-to-yourself-as-an-adult’ (self-indulgent ‘yummy mummy’ talk).
    If your husband DOESN’T want children then you accept that he is accountable to God for this decision.
    Pray that he is given wisdom and discernment and continue loving him with a meek and quiet spirit regardless of the outcome.
    Love your man and stand by him come what may.

    No matter what your husband’s mission is in this life – you are his HELPER.
    He is the captain. First-mates don’t join a ship with their own map!
    Women need to learn to be sweet be kind be flexible and willing to do according to her husband’s will.
    “She is clothed with strength and dignity, and she laughs without fear of the future.”
    Proverbs 31:25

  79. bluedog

    @Frank, re: the Tangs … well, at least problem solved, eh?

    SSM splits this article into two parts addressing believers and non-believers. I can lay down some substance for the non’s.

    1) I am not so concerned with happy as I am with regret. Happy changes from moment to moment, day to day. Regret occurs when I know that I missed an opportunity that cannot be reversed.
    2) I am sure that I will either die early (in which case it doesn’t matter), or I will become old
    3) If I become old, I do not think I will regret my n-count. I do not think I will regret my career choices. I won’t even regret that I did, or did not become married. But having had kids, if I did anything less than the best I can, by way of them, then I will surely regret that. On the other hand, if I am assured that I did right by them, I will be assured of a life rightfully and well lived.

    With that in mind – studies showing that people are “less happy” when their kids are young, do not surprise me. It’s a lot of work and in a word, it sucks. And studies that show that people are happier when they are older, say past 40, and have more kids … this does not surprise me either. It’s awesome. It is totally awesome to have thriving kids. There is nothing bar nothing more validating than that.

    Numbered list again:
    1) I recall in my 20s a kind of listlessness. I had personal and career goals, but difficultly planning and sticking to them. Existential feelings bothered me and the bother was a like a wind, taking some ways here, then some ways there, but always alleys and always distractoins.

    2) With children as a locked-in anchor, a first value, and a priority … I am TOO BUSY to feel bad for myself, or listless, like I did in my 20s, it is a distant memory. I am always assured of my path and I cannot waste time with idle winds taking me here or there.

    3) I have age-peers, male and female, without children. My discussions with them remind me of being in my 20s. Successful adults – yes. Still struggling with listlessness and existential feelings – yes.

    But … I don’t necessarily say they should have kids. If you can have kids – and you can have a solid role in their lives, then good.

    But … if you had kids and were cast out? A vanity … and so men in their 20s running this on a cost-benefit and finding the way of fatherhood wanting … I get it.

    In conclusion though: if you do not have children, then you will NEED some other anchor for your life, or you will be listless and existentially angst-ridden. It can be done, but you must choose your mission, commit to your mission, be assured in your mission and most of all, own it. You chose not to have children. A valid choice. But you … your spirit … REQUIRES a mission. Find a mission, worthy of you on the level of children, then commit, be assured, and own it.

  80. Hannah

    Happy Hen I’m so sorry to hear about your unfulfilled desire to have a house full of children.
    I admire your courage in sharing about the heartbreak of infertility and recurrent miscarriage.
    May the Lord bless you and your family abundantly.

    x Hannah

  81. Hannah

    “Better is a dinner of herbs[a] where love is,
    Than a fatted calf with hatred.”
    Proverbs 15:17

    Worldly wealth is overrated. . . it’s possible to be poor and happy and it is also possible to be rich and miserable. My aim is contentment no matter the situation.

    Ton I’m not surprised you are anti-marriage. I’m sorry that you had such a horrible ex-wife.

  82. Dr. Faust

    Everyone wants to be young forever so people aren’t maturing naturally anymore.

    While I agree that the youth is celebrated by the marketing industry in order to sell products, the effects of social programs supporting people for their entire lives has a greater impact on children never growing up. People operate under a needs based program. If they don’t need to do something then the chances are that they won’t do it. Only when people need elderly care will they raise their children right to be productive members of society. Without that they’re more likely to dope them on drugs as soon as junior can’t still still for eight hours a day listening to a boring teacher drone on about subject he doesn’t care about. It’s only when we need something that we really do anything.

  83. Carlotta

    @ Hannah
    “To be a woman worthy of a man – a woman needs to be prepared to do whatever it is HE wants in their life together.Hopefully he wants children. Perhaps he does not. This is between him and God.Women should not come to marriage with expectations and a checklists of her own desires – it is my thought that this is rooted in selfish pride.”

    That is wonderful that this is what you think but it is not something that you should presume to apply to anyone else as some kind of litmus test for Godly womenhood.
    It is imperative that potential mates discuss this ahead of time as this greatly affects them both. You dont get married and get it sprung on you that your not allowed to have children or that you are going to give the Duggars a run for their money. The type of life and career a man will pursue and her part in it. Whether she will be staying home with children or not. These are important DECISIONS that they must make BEFORE the marriage. She is not an apendage Hannah. She is a child of God with responsibilities and gifts as well. She needs to make an informed decision and has a right too.

  84. FuzzieWuzzie

    Could it be that the whole purpose of the original post is to expose the fact that an ever increasing minority is choosing to forgo their biological imperitive?
    Where have I heard that before?
    That sounds like the traditionalist and feminist objection to MGTOW.
    The difference is the guys are applying it as a survival strategy and the gals are trying to enhance their lifestyle.

    AtroposHeart,
    It is the height of arrogance to consider us, in our modern age, as more intelligent than bronze age goat herders. We’re only more technically proficient.
    Consider this: comparing the time of the Pharohs to Egypt post WWII. In ancient times, Egypt supported four times the population and was a net food exporter. Modern Egypt has to import food.

  85. archerwfisher

    Dr. Faust,

    “The main reason people don’t want to have children is because they are children. Cradle to grave social programs ensure that no one needs to ever grow up or assume responsibility for anything.”

    Great. That explains why pretty much every study agrees, that better educated people with higher paying jobs have less children, and less educated people working crud jobs have more kids (such as ghetto black single moms.) Because clearly, people who make 40k+ a year are just children, but inner city ghetto rats are mature adults.

    FuzzieWuzzie

    I’m not predicting the end of the world. No one can do that. I’m predicting brutal times ahead for one nation, and anything with a brain who does reading can do that. Don’t you think plenty of people probably saw trouble when Mao Tse Tung beat Chiang Kai Shek out of China, which lead to millions of dead Chinese citizens?

    Or maybe when Tsar Nicholas was overthrown and murdered in Russia in 1918, which lead to millions dying off from starvation and being banished to Siberia, etc?

    Ferdinand Foch remarked at the Treaty of Versailles, ending World War 1, “This is not peace. It is an armistice for 20 years” World War II began 20 years and 65 days later.

    Plenty of people can predict brutal times looming ahead.

  86. Maeve

    Hannah, this may be just particular to my own denomination, but one of the things that was stressed over and over in my pre-marriage counseling was that refusal to have children was absolute grounds for annulment and that, in fact, there could be no marriage without the express intent of both parties to endeavor to have children.

  87. Dr. Faust

    Yesterday I was having a conversation with one of my friends and we were discussing marriage and women. I thought he was a MGTOW by the way he was describing it. He was telling me about how his brother is angry at women and refuses to get married. At one point I had to ask if had ever heard about MGTOW and then pointed out some websites to him. It’s amazing to think that men might actually be waking up to this. It makes me so happy.

    Also, that video on gratitude is great. Thanks for sharing it.

  88. FuzzieWuzzie

    Maeve, I’m pretty sure Hannah has kids.

    Carlotta,
    When Hannah met her husband, she was in a very dark place and at rock bottom. He threw her a life line. I don’t think they had this talk, but it sounds like a great idea for people with options.

    archerwfisher,
    What we’re facing is something unprecedented. Historical comparisons aren’t available. Because of unrestrained hypergamy, a supermajority of men are being shut out. Since this is at the option of women, they’ll have to relent. There’s no other authority to appeal to, other than God Himself. That’s why i don’t see men rioting in the streets or starting a revolution.
    Dalrock had a hopeful post today. Virtuous men do have a powerful card to play-legitimacy.
    The sooner tis is resolved, the better for all.

  89. Maeve

    Hi Fuzzi – yes I think she does too – I was just remembering the Priest telling us that we could not be married in the Catholic Church if we (or even one of us) did not intend to (try) and have children. And now here are people getting married without that intention (I mean from the original post).

  90. FuzzieWuzzie

    Maeve,
    A while back, someone listed all the issues that could lead to annulment in the Catholic Church. This was one of them. After reading them all, I got the sense that annulment is a recourse for people who have been defrauded by marriage.

  91. Maeve

    Fuzzie,
    the way it was explained to me is that it essentially a finding that the sacramental bond between the husband and wife never took place, either due to some pre-existing condition which would have rendered it impossible, or due to some deliberate interference on the part of one or both individuals – so there is both circumstance and/or intent at play.

  92. Hannah

    @ Carlotta:
    “She is not an apendage Hannah.”
    I had to look this up to figure out what you were referring to.

    Appendage:
    1. Something added or attached to an entity of greater importance or size; an adjunct.

    Then we disagree. I believe that pretty much sums it up.
    Woman came out of man…. so is bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh. In marriage female is added to male.

    “it is not something that you should presume to apply to anyone else as some kind of litmus test for Godly womenhood”

    Why not?

    Titus 2:3-5
    The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
    That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
    To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

    What I meant was that in joining a man in marriage means the woman is agreeing to help him in his mission on this earth. If it coincides with her hopes and desires then that’s fantastic…. but I don’t agree with the notion that it’s a ‘partnership’ in the sense that two equal halves figure out a mutual course of direction.

    Fuzzie you’re right about my dark history but I wasn’t referring to my own individual situation with my comment. This has more to do with the way that my father raised me than it does about my loathsome past.

    A female’s only mission in life is to help a man fulfill his.

    I believe that wives ought to choose to submit to the husband’s headship. I don’t agree with the notion of men leading well being the key to women’s obedience.
    It comes down to her obeying the word of God irrespective of what kind of leader her husband is.
    Some people say submission is all about the man having the final say. I disagree.
    This is just concession.
    Conceding is not the same as Submission.
    Submission is in the beginning.

  93. Hannah

    Maeve we have four littlies so far – 6, 5, 3, nearly 1 :)

    Our children are gifts from God that we are most grateful for. We are happy to have as many children as we are given. We are hoping for many more of these blessings but will be content with what we have if it’s not to be.
    My husband is the most amazing father (mmm yes very biased!) and I see it as my job to train his children to be a credit to him. Also to turn my husband’s heart toward his children and the hearts of the children toward their father.

  94. Cadders

    Success without a successor is failure.

    Harsh perhaps, but the place we find ourselves today, our families, our communities, economy, nations and cultures were created by the generations that went before. To choose childlessness for fickle reasons is to take the benifits from previous generations without passing anything on to the next. Not a reason that will convince indivduals to reproduce, but an explanation why we instintively consider voluntary child-free-ness selfish.

  95. Chris

    That great Sufi and Californian Brit — who has produced two darn good muso kids — had this nailed a long, long time ago.

  96. Ton

    Don’t be sorry my darling Kiwi, my ex wife is not your fault. What makes me anti state/ legal marriage is not that my marriage was bad, or the terms of my divorce, but how dirt common my story is. Bad marriages, unfaithful wives, fiscal rewards for.infidelity and bad marital behavior is the norm.

    Most young men I know are going their own way. They’ve never heard the term but they have witnessed what has happened to their fathers, brothers, uncles, NONCOM’s etc and want no part of this.

    The usa has a long established track record of waging war on it own people, economically, politically, and out right violent war on men, women and children. And that’s back when we were a “free” and “Godly” people. The usa now has the most technologically advanced internal intelligence system ever devised by man. The pieces are there for the usa to make Pol Pot, Hitler, Stalin, Tamerlame etc look like amateurs.

    So the RCC would say no if two 60 hear old never marrieds wanted to marry, but know they cannot have, and will not try to have children….. I understand making shit up as you go, but geeessss.

  97. HanSolo

    Though more women are having OOW children, lots of women still don’t want to have kids if not married. So the “wait til after 30 to marry” meme that feminists encourage also serves the purpose of causing many women to have fewer kids or in some cases, none at all.

    I just made a post where I used Dalrock’s Carousel Rider data to calculate 5-year marriage rates and then use three different scenarios to project never-married rates out to 2017. It’s quite striking.

    The early 2000′s, 30-34 y/o never-married white women (NMWW) had a ~34% chance of marrying within the next 5 years but this level was cut in half by 2007, to ~17%. Only 1 in 6 white women had never married in 2000 but In a scenario that assumes marriage rates will continue their recent decline, this level will likely double to 1 in 3 by 2017, a stunning increase. The 35-39 y/o NMWW cohort will nearly double from 11% in 2000 to ~20% by 2017.

    You can follow the link in my username to read the post if you’re interested.

  98. Maeve

    LOL Ton, I kind of asked the very same thing when my Priest was discussing annulment with me – (he is encouraging it very strongly) I mean the only reason for an annulment is so that I could conceivably remarry and still remaining in communion with the Church. And I brought up the premarital counseling thing and he basically told me that this would not be relevant. I’m trying to remember the reasons he gave – there were several – but I was a little overwrought at the time. What I took away from the conversation was: “You need to get a divorce; here’s the name of an attorney; you need to get an annulment and I will help you with that so you can get remarried if you want”. I figure I should just take it one hurdle at a time.

  99. Sarah's Daughter

    Maeve,
    I’m going to tell you the story of my husband’s uncle for you to contemplate one more option you might have.
    He married his wife while they were both young and they had four children. While working out of town he brought a mistress (who had a son already) into his life. He moved the mistress to the small town where he lived and had four more children with her. His wife never divorced him. He owned two homes side by side, the wife and four children in one and he, the mistress, and five children in the other. Both women worked at the dance hall he owned. He provided financially for both women and the nine children. The mistress died of cancer early in life (her mid 40′s). He lived out his remaining years of life with his wife. He died relatively early too (67). His wife lives today and is the grandmother to all of the grandchildren.
    It was not an ideal situation. Though I haven’t heard how a divorce would have better suited the wife.
    Though you’re a pleasant and friendly commenter here on SSM’s blog. I don’t believe that exceptions to biblical teaching should be entertained. The priest you have that is encouraging a divorce is part of the very problem that is being discussed regarding the sorry state our churches are in. Even using terms such as annulment, what then of your children?

  100. Sarah's Daughter

    Miss Kay, the wife of Phil Robertson (Duck Dynasty) said, “at some point in our lives, we women will have to fight for our marriages.” And what a testimony they have become.

  101. Carlotta

    @ Hannah

    No Hannah, what you have is a failure to distinguish between an already married women and an unmarried one looking to get married. Marriage is what joins them together. It is what joins two eternal souls, with two different sets of responsibilities, in a common task. She is not a wart the grew on his back that thanks him non stop for not having her removed.

    A single women looking to get married had better discuss children, finances, career choices of the husband and more. Or she and he are utter fools. Because in your particular case you are happy about how things worked out means nothing.
    I have a friend who eats junk all day long and has a size 0 figure. She knows that she is a freak and just enjoys it. She doesnt go around giving her lifestyle as a plan for fitness.

  102. Ton

    Looking at the photo of the couple on the beach, they are for sure trying to sell the idea its a lifetime of carefree tingles

    I’m not advocating divorce but folks want to hold out one in a million this marriage was restored stories like they are the norm. They are not. Holding them out as a sign for hope is horseshit. False hope is cruel. Most bad marriages stay bad. Folks have to deal with it the best they can.

  103. Cail Corishev

    It’s really no wonder feminists are so angry. Over the past hundred years, they’ve gotten pretty much everything they wanted. They got all the churches except one to approve of artificial birth control, and they convinced most Catholics to ignore their church’s refusal to accept it. They got a variety of different methods of contraception that a woman could choose from, some of which don’t require the man’s cooperation or even knowledge. They got abortion made legal throughout the nation up to the moment of birth, so that any accidental pregnancies could be discarded. They got government funding to make sure no woman is unable to afford these alternatives. They opened up all careers and social pursuits to women, so they’d have lots of other things to do with their time besides have babies. They encouraged women to be sex-positive and use sex for recreation and power-seeking, decoupling it from the purpose of reproduction. And they took charge of the schools so they could teach all this from K through PhD.

    And after all that, 80% of women still go on having babies, usually within marriage! It’s almost like it’s the “normal” thing to do or something.

  104. Sarah's Daughter

    It’s not about holding out hope, Ton, it’s about obedience to the Word of God and the wisdom to know that suffering may be involved.
    From Matthew 5:
    31 “Furthermore it has been said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ 32 But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality[e] causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.
    And from Mark 10:
    5 And Jesus answered and said to them, “Because of the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. 6 But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’[a] 7 ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, 8 and the two shall become one flesh’; [b] so then they are no longer two, but one flesh. 9 Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”

    10 In the house His disciples also asked Him again about the same matter. 11 So He said to them, “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her. 12 And if a woman divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery.”

    The aunt I wrote about suffered in her marriage. That she is alive today and the grandmother to all the grandchildren isn’t the hope. The Hope is what’s beyond this life.

  105. Farm Boy

    Liberals are always trying to take money from those who work and give it to those who do not.

    The “do not” include poor and rich.

    The middle gets squeezed.

  106. Just Saying

    I suspect that if you were to ask most of those women, you would find that they believed the rhetoric and found at 35, or 40 it was too late to start a family. I have met more than a few women who practically froth at the mouth when they see me with younger women, and they ask why, I am “robbing the cradle” and I’ll saying something like, “Because I can, and I like to keep my options for starting a family open.” It’s like they were kicked in the head – talk about stirring up a hive of angry bees…
    Most of what you see in “TIME” and other such liberal rags is just that – liberal BS to keep the sheep happy. So they tell women – “look at how good you have it” and women will act that way but every now and then the facade breaks down – usually when they see a baby and know that they will die without ever holding their child in their arms. As a man, I have no idea what that is like, since I can be a father at 80 – so I can “have it all” – women cannot. It is as simple at that… So women must choose – family, or worthless things… A man, can have worthless things when he’s young and a family when he’s older. :) Of course, it isn’t politically correct to say that – but it doesn’t make it any less true… That’s why liberals hate reality so much… It’s just so REAL… So they ignore it or hide from it till it kills them…

  107. Farm Boy

    That’s why liberals hate reality so much… It’s just so REAL…

    What is the operational definition of a liberal?

    One that ignores human nature.

  108. Farm Boy

    Most young men I know are going their own way

    Ton,

    Could you be more specific with what you see?

  109. Cail Corishev

    Most of what you see in “TIME” and other such liberal rags is just that – liberal BS to keep the sheep happy.

    Articles like these always give me the impression that the author is trying to convince herself that what she’s saying is true. That empty feeling in her gut when she holds her sister’s baby doesn’t mean anything; it’s just indigestion. Those nagging feelings that maybe she’s missing something are just programming by the media and the result of seeing too many diaper commercials. She loves her independence and the fact that she doesn’t have to answer to anyone!! She’s happy, really!!!

    Of course, there are some people (both men and women) who don’t have the desire or aptitude for parenthood, and that’s fine, though it’d be nice if they could find a better alternative purpose for their lives than conspicuous consumption. But that’ll never be “normal” in the sense of being anywhere near a societal norm. and people who are pushed in that direction against their natures will not be happy.

  110. theshadowedknight

    Farm Boy, I was talking to him about what I have seen, and how it was similar to his observations. Basically, a lot of the men I know are stepping back from women. It is skewed in the military, of course, but the danger of being falsely sexually assaulted by women is high enough that the men are easing up on their approaches. You see a group of guys with a girl who is just “one of the guys” for the feminine touch, but no one makes a move on her. They sit around and drink, party, talk, grill, etc, while she acts as a surrogate girlfriend to the whole group. The men do not go out for the most part, and few have a girlfriend. They just hang out together and talk about man things. I have a friend who has told me he is not going to get married because women are too much trouble for too little benefit, and others are the same way from what I have watched.

    The Shadowed Knight

  111. theshadowedknight

    Farm Boy, not from what I can tell. They have little to do with women overall, besides the token woman in the group. Some really intelligent, motivated, and promising young men have just given up. Eros Shrugged.

    The Shadowed Knight

  112. Ton

    Not sure what you’re looking for Farm Boy. TSK is damn accurate on social life.

    I use to attend a lot of weddings and we would throw down. Like 2-3 a year, now it’s been 2 in 3 years. Thats out of 20+ young, single, very fit, fully employed, motivated White men who think jumping out of planes and shooting people is a good way of earning a dollar. These are not risk adverse men. The men who are married, showed up here married to high school sweet hearts…. for awhile. The men who are eligible, maybe 3 are on the hunt for ass, the rest are happy when it’s falls in their lap but don’t seek out women, none looking for a wife. I use to run guys up to Raleigh and help them track down college chicks. Mission statement, execution plan, service and support, areas of operation worked out, command and signal, a full on military op. Now they’d rather hang out at my place, shooting, drinking, fishing, bbq’ing and maybe working on a truck/ car/ bike. Think about that

    They’d rather hang out at their boss’s house, a man 20 years or so older, and do the same shit on their off hours as we do on duty…..

    Porn has replaced women, a few do hire an occasional hooker, but much less then you’d think

  113. Scott

    “The men who are married, showed up here married to high school sweet hearts…. for awhile. The men who are eligible, maybe 3 are on the hunt for ass, the rest are happy when it’s falls in their lap but don’t seek out women, none looking for a wife. I use to run guys up to Raleigh and help them track down college chicks. Mission statement, execution plan, service and support, areas of operation worked out, command and signal, a full on military op. Now they’d rather hang out at my place, shooting, drinking, fishing, bbq’ing and maybe working on a truck/ car/ bike. Think about that”

    Until I read this, I never really noticed it. But now that I think about it, you’re right. There are so many guys in the Army who seem like they would make fantastic husbands, but are single, and not the least bit concerned about it. They aren’t flaming homosexuals or weridos either. Sad.

  114. theshadowedknight

    Farm Boy, I assume so. The Marine Corps prefers to select for sociopathy in its recruits, and the men in my field have to be smart, too. These men are usually in the top third or higher, and I know quite a few besides myself who are in the 99th percentile. We tend to be a clever, anarchic lot, and an intelligent, uncontrollable, and aggressive trained killer is not going to be without sexual release for too long.

    When you look at the quality of the women to which they have access, it is not a mystery. Why risk a false raping when you can hang out with friends and drink and talk and generally enjoy life? Women are no longer in the running, unless they throw themselves in for consideration.

    The Shadowed Knight

  115. Ton

    It is sad. We use to have some epic bachelor parties, like how the hell did I wake up in Tennessee kind of epic

  116. FuzzieWuzzie

    TSK, Ton, and Scott,
    Thanks for the insight. Refusing to socialize has to go deeper than fear of false allegations. If I were a woman reading these anecdotes, I’d be more than a little concerned. If it goes as deep as you are alluding to, expect howling come fall turning into outright shrieking come Christmas when thay can’t find arm ornaments that give them presents.

  117. Maeve

    @SarahsDaughter, I appreciate that your suggestion that I remain in my current situation was sincerely made. It is not a viable option for me, but I do thank you for your concern.
    However, in light of the fact that I must proceed as planned, it is probably better that I quit this company.
    @SSM, if I have abused your kind hospitality, I sincerely apologize. It was not my intent and I have greatly enjoyed conversing with your guests here.

  118. Ton

    Maeve you’re going to make Fuzzie unhappy… have you seen an angry bear?

    TSK use the false allegation stuff and it’s true. I know a man who has a female soldier say she was raped 5-7 times since Jauanry but she cannot recall by who. So it’s true to a degree regarding military chicks. She has to be HOT to warrant the risk. What I find more puzzling is they don’t want to raid college towns and bang out college chicks…???….???….

  119. FuzzieWuzzie

    Maeve,
    Ton is right, I’d be unhappy. Who else can I trade silly stories with about weaponizing teddy bears?

  120. theshadowedknight

    Ton, you still have to deal with the snotty attitudes, and hypergamy goes wild when the women get to select from amongst all the different groups of sexy military men. Women still act terrible, men still do not care to handle their problems as well as their woman’s, too. Most of their exposure is to military women, but the civilians are not much better.

    Fuzzie, they are too busy aiming for officers and senior enlisted to notice. I have to say, it happened within this year, I came back from deployment and noticed the changes with some surprise. It may not have sunken in to the feminine consciousness as of yet, but give it some time. When all sex is defined as rape, the women better be worth a rape charge for the opportunity to sleep with her.

    Maeve, SD is like that mildly retarded uncle that no one has the heart to leave out of the family reunions. Her opinion is not worth much beyond the pixels it uses, so unless SSM says to get lost, you are most likely welcome to stay. Try not to give too much weight to SD’s comments. She has little self control and less empathy. Besides, Fuzzie likes you, and bears get lonely alone in the woods.

    The Shadowed Knight

  121. Farm Boy

    TSK and Ton,

    Thanks for the info.

    Dalrock insists that there is no marriage strike. Perhaps it just takes time to show up in the statistics.

  122. FuzzieWuzzie

    Sarah’s Daughter,
    Do I have to saddle up the white charger again? I like having women commenters on here. If it were just us guys, it would be a descending spiral into suicidal depression.
    Please cut Maeve some slack. She’s in between a rock and a hard place with her martial situation and, please, remember she’s the one who got dumped.

  123. theshadowedknight

    Farm Boy, as I said, it is a recent change. A lot of it is likely a result of the rampant sexual assault briefs and a couple of false sexual assaults that blew up out of control. The entire battalion goes to a brief that says if the woman has a sip of beer, it is rape(not an exaggeration, they actually say this) and then they hear from their friends that they are being destroyed by the command and are guilty by accusation. It is so bad that I have an instinctive aversion to talking to women with whom I work. I have to force myself to deal with them, as they are burdensome wenches most of the time.

    Fuzzie, not much point. I have met cucumbers more self aware than SD. The only thing you can do is let her targets know about her attitude, and try not to engage with her. She has an entire blog to spill her bile and she still comes here to vent. Nothing we have to say is going to register because we are not what she would consider attractive; we do not count. She is blind, deaf, but unfortunately, not at all mute. Guide her to the corner and explain the situation to Maeve.

    The Shadowed Knight

  124. Ton

    Remember folks the Army’s #1 mission is….. preventing sexual harassment/ assault & not winning the war on terror

    TSK, I get your point about attitudes regarding women particularly chicks around military towns. Been dealing with that shit for 24 years and heard all the stories from my old man, uncles, grandfather’s etc etc before that.

    BUT, I’m talking about raiding Raleigh (or beach towns) colleges all over the place, target rich environment if there ever was one, with beta chump college boys as the competition, and a workable plan. All they have to do is follow my lead. Like shooting fish in a barrel. Honolulu pretty damn good hunting as well, yet young men, in the height of their hormonal drive don’t want to spend the time. Boggles the mind.

    Farm Boy, Dalrock crunches numbers, I rely on observations of the world around me. When theory, statistics etc do not jive with my observations, I ignore the experts. There are lies, damn lies and statistics, as the saying goes and I’ve seen enough “experts” out and out lie to trust them . That is in no way a swipe at Dalrock, but he is relying on experts giving him honest intell….. I would not do so.

  125. theshadowedknight

    Ton, even if you manage to get a woman’s attention, all of the sudden you have a woman’s attention, and everything that comes with that. If you are dating, you have to deal with all the attendant drama and the requisite headaches. Even if you win, you still lose. How many tales of woman induced misery have these men heard? They have the first hand experience, and they do not think it worth the effort. Even if they go to college towns, they have to deal with women like that A character. You are in the top tenth of of the top one percent, and look at what happened to you. What chance do they have, evaluating it from their perspective?

    The Shadowed Knight

  126. Ton

    Dating? Who said anything about dating? I’m talking about loading up the longships, following an experienced reiver up river, infill’ing the enemies territory, drinking his booze, pushing him around, pillaging his women folk and burning the town to the ground before you xfill.

    That was called Tuesday night when I was a young Ranger/ Paratrooper

    Girls have to earn dating privileges. The hard way.

    Me top %? Hardly. I’m short, ugly, with a bad attitude and no neck. I get what you’re saying TSK, but better men then me are sitting it out and it’s puzzling.

  127. FuzzieWuzzie

    It’s time for a clarifacation. Rape, pillage, and plunder are not all what you think.
    Rape is capturing women and taking them home with you. Among other things, they get to make you sandwiches.
    Pillage is burning or destoying anything of value that cannot be transported.
    Plunder is taking anything of value that can be transpoted.
    All this stopped when Gaius Marius converted the Roman Legions to professional.

  128. theshadowedknight

    SD, did her husband somehow get another woman pregnant without commiting adultery, and then move in with her and live with her without commiting adultery? Divorce is permitted in the case of adultery, unless I am mistaken.

    Maeve has been divorced, in fact if not in law. Her husband started another family after abandoning his wife. He is the one at fault, not her.

    The Shadowed Knight

  129. FuzzieWuzzie

    Sarah’ Daughter,
    The white charger is back in the stable. He’s munching on oats.
    I had some fun with Maeve talking about silly things and it helped my attitude.
    Having more female commenters may help cheer the guys up. Some of them will have histories, just like the guys.

  130. Farm Boy

    Remember folks the Army’s #1 mission is….. preventing sexual harassment/assault

    Perhaps a good way to succeed would be to not have women in the Army.

  131. Sarah's Daughter

    TSK,
    My understanding, based on my husband’s guidance is that a husband’s adultery, any other sin, or lack of faith does not justify disobedience to God’s commands for wives in marriage. Should she divorce him, and should she desire to not enter into sin, she must remain unmarried. The example I gave about my husband’s uncle, though not ideal or wonderful, is something to be considered when a woman is in this situation. His uncle returned to his wife (after 25 years of living with his mistress) and they lived peaceably together for many years. His wife continued on as a submissive wife, raised the mistresses youngest children to adulthood, and nursed him dutifully when his health failed. She did not speak ill of him and I always saw her treat him with respect.
    The hardest advice I’ve given recently was to a friend to stay prayerfully with her husband (Ton knows the details). I’ve been blessed to be able to witness great changes coming about with them. She suffered. No doubt, she suffered. It’s not advice I enjoy giving because I know that it involves pain and suffering. And it is not a guarantee that peace or joy will come. But it is obedience to God’s Word, and that’s the most important part of it.

  132. theshadowedknight

    Clueless and helpless, as usual.

    Oh, Farm Boy, were you talking about with women? They seem to do pretty well, once they are 0-3 or higher. Until then, they are as lost with women as they are in the woods.

    The Shadowed Knight

  133. sunshinemary Post author

    So far as I can tell, there is nothing in the Bible that permits a woman to divorce her husband. If she separates from him, she is supposed to remain unmarried or reconcile to him. Men may divorce their wives for unfaithfulness or sexual immorality. If I am wrong about this, I will accept correction, but I have studied the Bible pretty carefully on this issue, and I just don’t see any verses that permit a woman to divorce her husband.

    That’s hard teaching, ladies. Believe me when I tell you that I understand how hard that teaching can be. But are we concerned with what is easy or what is true? I would never counsel a woman to divorce her husband for any reason, though there may be some reasons why she would need to separate from him physically.

  134. sunshinemary Post author

    I just searched again, and I still find no verses that allow a woman to divorce her husband. Surely if God had intended to permit women to divorce their husbands, He would have given us guidelines. After all, he gave men guidelines about divorcing their wives. Men can divorce their wives if they give her a certificate of divorce, but God says this is not a good thing for a man to do unless the wife was an adulteress.

    Christian women should be filing zero percent of divorces. Christian women who divorce their husbands and marry another man are committing adultery. In 1 Corinthians 6, adulterers are one of the listed categories of people who will not inherit the kingdom of God.

  135. sunshinemary Post author

    Oh, by the way Maeve, my husband was a serial adulterer, so I do know what it’s like. However, he never left me for another woman, so I can only imagine what a difficult time this is for you. I am praying for you. May God give you wisdom, an obedient heart, and the strength to carry out His will.

  136. Artisanal Toad

    @SSM
    For Christians the Law of the Bondservant applies and essentially Paul restated that with respect to marriage in 1st Corinthians 7:10-17. Believers married to believers are forbidden to divorce. Meaning, the believing husband is specifically forbidden to divorce his believing wife at 1st Cor. 7:11. I wrote a post about it here, explaining the issues related to the divorce for immorality stuff.

    @TSK
    The Marine Corps prefers to select for sociopathy in its recruits
    I always knew there was a reason they wanted me so badly. Just never had a rational explanation. Thanks… I think.

  137. theshadowedknight

    So men can get divorced for sexual immorality, but not women? Fair enough, SD, I was wrong, and I apologize. That is… unfortunate, and a tragedy of justice, but the Lord has his reasons. Though I have to say, were anyone to pull this on my sister, there would be no need for a divorce. She would be reconciled, or widowed properly. Do not tangle with the tribe.

    Toad, the USMC likes that its personnel have no special reservations towards killing. That is the reason for the “do you have what it takes, no one promised you a rose garden” approach they take to recruiting. They want to attract the people who want to kill people. Once you get in the door, they want you to stay, because you have self selected as having the desired traits.

    The Shadowed Knight

  138. Hannah

    Maeve how are you doing? Some truths are particularly painful to swallow but perhaps it’s easier in fellowship? Pretty sure that’s what we’re all here for – facing ugly truths.
    You haven’t smudged the air with your conversation nor are you rejected from our company.
    I like you and I hope you’re going to stick around :)

  139. Ton

    I agree women have no right to divorce and think men are allowed more then one wife, which is a tough truth to deal with and should be laid down with charm

    However, in the Old Testament, God gives people over to conquest and men are allowed to claim the conquered’ s wives as theirs. I’m not sure all the wives were recently widowed either

  140. Scott

    “They seem to do pretty well, once they are 0-3 or higher. Until then, they are as lost with women as they are in the woods.”

    Hey wait a minute. I was enlisted before and beat my entire PLDC class at night land nav.

  141. Sarah's Daughter

    Scott,
    Often there is an acceptance clause for those officers who are prior enlisted and figured out the pay scale math in the “who sucks” book of the enlisted.

  142. theshadowedknight

    Scott, it depends on the officer. Some go dark side, others go full retard, but a few actually seem to know what is going on. I have no idea what they put in the water at OCS, but I see some real odd people come in as officers.

    Farm Boy, simple, the few that do bother. They clean up, because the competition is going to the beach or the gym.

    The Shadowed Knight

  143. Farm Boy

    I have no idea what they put in the water at OCS, but I see some real odd people come in as officers

    Part of it is that universities no longer teach people to think; it mostly about memorizing the agendas of the prof.

  144. Artisanal Toad

    @TSK
    I was joking. If the Marine Corps actually wanted to pre-select for sociopathy the ASVAB would contain a selection of questions that would indicated such traits (think of the MMPI) and allow for further screening. The need for sociopathic troops was addressed in S.L.A. Marshall’s book “Men Against Fire” which resulted from studies of the island campaigns during WWII. These studies indicated that 1/4 of the men found dead in fighting positions had been shot or bayoneted to death having never fired their weapons.

    Doctrinal changes resulting from those studies were implemented in boot camp, which became focused on conversion techniques and brainwashing to remove the ‘mother’s milk of kindness’ from the recruits. In other words, instead of selecting for sociopathy they decided to create it. This rather disturbing discussion of mind control by Dick Sutphen discusses techniques used and why they work, as well as how mind control techniques are used within churches historically and today. I have personally found some of his observations to be true with respect to churches.

    @Ton
    Maybe what’s foiling your plans for reeving is your shooters and looters never got any training in game. For all their high-speed training and the incredible confidence it gives them, that confidence is within the context of doing something they’re provably damn good at. Condition: pretty girls. Objective: approach and conquer. Check skillset: nada. Result: Don’t volunteer for the suicide mission.

    Essentially it seems like you’re making the argument that just because they’re fit, intelligent, reasonably attractive and employed as ‘high status’ SF troops that their in-context confidence will bleed over and they’ll be able to handle women’s shit tests and not be rejected. This doesn’t agree with observed data. However, if your snuffies have game and have proven to themselves they can pull the cuties at will, what you’re saying is profoundly disturbing. Very profoundly disturbing.

  145. MInTheGap (@MInTheGap)

    Going back to the original post, I think that the emphasis on the child-free ability to “do whatever I want” is made more powerful by the fact that most people are now subject to almost non-stop updates about what their friends and family with fewer or no children are doing via Facebook. Though there is some drama at times, a lot of what you get from people that don’t post often is accounts of how great their vacation was, how their kid did such and such, etc.

    There is an incessant beat in the culture that says that you need things and activities to be happy, and that if you are not happy then you aren’t alive or your life isn’t worth much. Doing work isn’t what sells, leisure is.

  146. Farm Boy

    people are now subject to almost non-stop updates about what their friends and family with fewer or no children are doing via Facebook

    Is there any true positive that comes out of Facebook?

  147. Morvena

    @MargeryM – It’s okay; as I said before, this is a sore subject for me for a couple of different reasons so I knew that I would probably need to tread carefully and step back for a day or two. I know most of the advice/viewpoints here are given in good faith so I’m not personally offended or anything :)

    @FW – My husband takes a similar view; “If you’re worrying about it then you’re probably okay”. Thank you :)

    @Ton – It’s amazing the things people will fuss over, isn’t it? All I’ll say is do what you feel is best for your babies and go with what your fellow prefers; it’s not that difficult.

    @Faust – Your “hairy women” comment made me genuinely laugh out loud.

    @Maeve – I enjoy your comments and hope you’ll reconsider your decision to leave. This group seems pretty laid back, even with folks who do/have done things that aren’t agreed with. Only trolls and feminists need not apply.

    I wasn’t aware that only men are allowed divorce. Does it specifically state that women may not divorce or is it taken as a given due to passages only mentioning men but not women? No trolling; I’m genuinely curious.

  148. Ton

    Thats the thing AT, I’m willing to mentor them but we have to be in the field and they don’t care enough to try and rather bbq/ drink at the barracks.

    And I am talking about the young men in my scout/ sniper platoon not men from my special ed days

    Every branch trains men to pull the trigger and kill, the marines like to think they are special in that regard…. guess its good for recruiting because the statistical on producing casualties is not in their favor

    Do heterosexual men have facebook pages?

  149. Elspeth

    There is no verse that states that a woman may not divorce, to my knowledge. However, women are not allowed to remarry while their first husband lives.

    Given that the majority of people divorce with the expectation of finding someone new, the prohibition on remarriage is a defacto statement that women may not divorce.

    I will add that a large percentage of Protestant and Reformed Christians believe that the Bible allows remarriage for both women and men when the first marriage was broken because their spouse sinned against them by committing adultery.

    I tend to subscribe to the Catholic view; one marriage for life so long as both parties are alive and there are absolutely no provisions whatsoever for polygyny in the New Testament.

    Of course I’m not theologian and my husband and I are considered hardliners compared to most other Protestants. Not on the subject of polygyny which is universally denounced among Protestants and Catholics alike, but on the subject of divorce.

  150. Morvena

    They do, but in my experience they tend to post far less than women (straight/lesbian/whatever) do. When they do post it’s usually about their children if they have any or their hobbies.

  151. Morvena

    @Elspeth – Okay, that makes a little more sense. My husband and I are Southern Baptists so we do subscribe to the view of divorce being permitted for men and women in cases of adultery, though I’m not sure if remarriage for the aggrieved party would be permitted or not. Our particular pastor won’t perform marriage ceremonies for people who are divorced, as far as I know.

  152. Matamoros

    Has no one noticed these verses?:
    1Timothy 2;
    9. In like manner women also in comely attire: with demureness and sobriety adorning themselves, not in plaited hair, or gold, or precious stones, or gorgeous apparel,
    10. But that which becometh women professing piety by good works.
    11. Let a woman learn in silence, with all subjection.
    12. But to teach I permit not unto a woman, not to have dominion over the man: but to be in silence.
    13. For Adam was formed first: then Eve.
    14. And Adam was not seduced: but the woman being seduced, was in prevarication.
    15. Yet she shall be saved by generation of children: if ‘they’ continue in faith and love and sanctifications with sobriety.

    So, is it improbable that a woman who hates the very thing for which she was created will not be saved?

  153. Pingback: This Week in Reaction | The Reactivity Place

  154. grindstone50k

    Mrs. Wood writes:

    TIME magazine chose an image of a couple lying on a beach for its latest promotion of childlessness by Lauren Sandler. Imagine if the magazine had chosen an image of old people languishing in a nursing home instead.

    I would be actual currency all of those people have kids that refuse to visit their parents.

  155. Pers14

    But, this article is more than just accusing us of narcissism. It’s accusing us of being much more or less…depending on how you look at it. Sub human, almost. I felt disgusting and dirty reading this article. Like I am less because I do not feel the need or want or …anything regarding having children. That I am only a walking uterus.
    I was married to a real douchebag. His parents would degrade and regale me over and over that it was my duty as a white woman to have kids. No one cared that I did not want children, that I have mental health issues (over generations) that I did not want to pass on, that I feared what I would become should I have kids (my father was abusive…I feared becoming the same)…none of that matters in these people’s eyes…I should just …propagate, because I am a female, that I am white, because it is my genetic destiny.
    It is this stuff that bothers me. That girls and women are born just to …birth and make more, with no thought. I love making dinner and taking care of my husband. I get a lot of satisfaction from making sure he is well, and I know he loves to make sure I am well. I will never breed. He did not want to breed either and got a vasectomy at 30, he had his own reasons and made up his mind before we were together.
    I am more than my biology. We are all more than our biology. And this…this makes the writer of this article, and many others…very frightened.

  156. Patty

    I’d rather a woman or a man be happy with their lives. Not all humans are happy with children and you shouldn’t try to force your beliefs on other people.

  157. RICanuck

    @pers14,
    You do not want children, well that is your life. But why do you feel unclean after reading this? From your comment, your reason for childlessness is not entirely due to selfishness. If you would not be a loving, sacrificial mother it is best that you remain childless. I suspect that your defensiveness is because you realise there will be consequences to remaining childless. Face them with courage, hopefully with your husband by your side till old age. I have no intention of moralising nor do I desire to hurt you.

    @Patty,
    You piss me off. In this world are many people who disagree with you, and with me. An expression by one person, not backed up with force is not forcing his beliefs on you. I will state my opinion, and if that makes you uncomfortable enough to accuse SSM, myself or any other commenter of forcing our beliefs on you, then stay the hell away from the manosphere.

  158. theshadowedknight

    “Don’t force your beliefs on me,” says the liberal. “Only I get to do that,” goes unsaid, so as not to give away the plot. You lot have been doing the same thing for over a century, and look what it wrought.

    We do not care about your feelings. You have no power here. The wailing and shaming do not sway us. You cannot influence the message anymore. We will not remain silent any longer. We are coming back.

    The Shadowed Knight

  159. xcountrycaitlinx

    I do not plan on having children, because I do not like children. I can’t be around even an individual child for more than a few hours without getting anxious and annoyed. Does this make me narcissistic? Probably, in the eyes of those of you that see raising children as their life’s purpose. However, I would rather live a life free of constant anxiety and misery than have a child. To have a child just because society expects me to would leave myself miserable, and the poor child would not get the love it deserves. So I will leave the child rearing to those who can appreciate children, and can raise them more effectively. I myself will refrain from having children. For the sake of the hypothetical child, and for my own sake.
    And may I add that the judgement on this post is quite strong. Childfree people aren’t hurting you, so why do parents care? Jesus tells Christians not to judge, so why don’t you just leave us childfree to our own devices?

  160. FuzzieWuzzie

    This post must have hit some feminist’s nerve and got linked.
    C’mon people! Kids are fun! They’re enthusiastic and joyful. Their needs are simple. It’s easy for them to get into heaven, because God wants them back.
    Adults are much different.

  161. Autumn

    “Does a woman choosing to be childless (now euphemistically called child-free) make sense as just another lifestyle choice for these women? No, it does not. If one is an atheist or agnostic, one almost certainly believes in the entire Darwinian religious creed of the origin of the human species from the same common ancestors as all other life via evolution. But how then can remaining childless make any sense at all? The urge to reproduce must be intense – and in women, this is not the same urge as men have, which is primarily an urge for sexual intercourse. In women, the desire to nurture offspring is (as it must be, under the Darwinian religion) innate and indeed, the entire focus of life. A woman without this strong drive being biologically built in would not reproduce and would be weeded out of the gene pool very quickly.”

    YOU think we all have the urge to procreate and produce sex trophies. I do not. I don’t even have one bone in my body that wants to produce offspring. I don’t like children. I think they are the mini-me devil spawn edition of their parents. I don’t like to be bothered by children. Since I was 14, I have no idea what to do with a kid when in the presence of one. I have no immediate urge to be around children, either.

    Furthermore, where do you get off calling us of the child-free lifestyle narcissistic? I don’t tell people I DON’T want children for attention. I am also not excessively or erotically into myself or my appearance. I just like to be left alone! I am a loner. I am a non-life producing introverted Atheist that likes to keep to myself. I cannot FATHOM the idea of someone needing me for the next 18 years 24/7. Nor do I want to deal with it. My mother thinks its a good choice, as even she can see that I shouldn’t have children. She doesn’t mean to be mean about it. But shes also the person that watched me grow up.

    I’m sorry you feel the urge to speak for the women in this world, but for me, you will NOT be speaking for me, as I have a voice of my own, thank you very much.

  162. sunshinemary Post author

    Since so much traffic is coming over from the childfree subreddit, where someone linked to my post, allow me to reiterate a comment that I made at the top of the thread because most of you are missing the point of my essay:

    I want to be clear: there may be a few unusual women who are genetically abnormal and who do not possess a maternal instinct. These women are right not to have children. However, anti-childbearing campaigns are endemic in the leftist media. Liberals are nothing if not anti-child…anti-life, really. It is wrong to promote voluntary childlessness to women at large, most of whom actually do possess a maternal instinct. We should not organize our lives based on a few outliers.

    This essay really isn’t about you if you are one of those rare women who does not possess a maternal instinct. You are right not to have children, as I said. What is wrong is for the leftist mainstream media to use you, who are not the norm, to promote its family-hating social agenda to all women.

    Out of curiosity, if you are all so happy with your decision, why are you so touchy about it? Why the hysterical, rage-filled responses? Why the need for me to validate your lifestyle? I noticed in one of the comments on Reddit that one woman was so enraged by my post that she said she felt like smashing her computer. Another woman said she wished she could come over to my house and hit me in the face with a pan. Those are rather odd responses simply because someone has criticized something you like.

    I am a Christian, and as such, my beliefs and lifestyle choices are constantly mocked by the liberal left; I try to explain myself to such people, but I don’t need their validation and it doesn’t make me angry not to have it. I don’t become so emotional when people make fun of me for being a Christian that I feel like breaking my stuff or assaulting someone.

  163. theshadowedknight

    Ahhh, reddit, that festering cesspool. I was wondering from whence they came. As for their cries, could it be that for some, it was not so much would not as could not? No one wants to be reminded of what they could not have.

    The Shadowed Knight

  164. Autumn

    @Mary you are entitled to your religion, as I am entitled to my lack of. I’m sorry that some of these people have threatened you.

    The reason why I am touchy is because I don’t like people telling me what I should do as a woman and what is considered the societal norm for women my age (23). I have always been the black sheep of my family.

    Let me explain:
    I come from a “suburban/rural” family. I have good parents, and I love them very much. My brother and I had a good childhood. We also are two very completely different people.He was always athletic. My brother is like you. He’s a godly man with a godly wife, and two beautiful children; girls, actually. My sister in law is the Children’s Ministries Director of their Evangelical church. They love all children they come across. He is a good man.

    I on the other hand, am an Atheist, I love books, and am very much a bookworm. I have also been very outside the social norm for my age. While other girls my age were playing with their hair, I was reading books, and playing with computers. I have a love for the artistic side of life, and tattoos etc. I dislike all children I come across. I am a good woman.

    I guess you could say the differences of my brother and I are in the names. His name is Christopher, and mine is Autumn.

    I don’t have a motherly instinct in my body. I haven’t even the remote urge to be a mom. Am I told I would make a good mother? Yes. but I have no urge to act on it. If I do decide to ever be a mom, I would like to adopt rather than bring another child into this world. Why have children when there are so many out there that need a good home with a good family?

  165. sunshinemary Post author

    I don’t know, TSK, maybe. What I don’t get , what I never get, is the hysterical emotionalism. It happens every time I get a feminist invasion. Look through the comments and notice how many women say they were enraged by my little essay. They engage in violent fantasies about what they wish they could do to me; although I am frequently disgusted by what I read on feminist sites, I can honestly say that I never fantasize about doing any of them bodily harm.

    http://www.reddit.com/r/childfree/comments/1kly2x/according_to_this_woman_were_all_just_narcissistic/

  166. Frank

    I wouldn’t sweat it Mary, kinda hard to take people with names like “Pizza Fag” seriously anyway.

    In fact I’m actually a little jealous. I think I’ll give myself a new moniker just mix things up a bit. How does Muffin Poop sound? Or maybe 2 Balls Mocha Dings…

    [ssm: :)]

  167. sunshinemary Post author

    Autumn
    As I said, there is a very small percentage of women who seem to lack any maternal instinct. You say that you are one of these and have chosen not to have children because of it. I see no problem with that.

    The problem is that there are very few women like you, but the feminist-soaked media sells anti-natalism to women as if it were just another lifestyle choice, one which any woman can choose and be satisfied with. This is a lie. For women who have a maternal drive but choose not to have children so that they can pursue a hedonistic lifestyle, the result is often miserable women in their late forties who wake up one day and realize they don’t even know what their life is for.

    I understand that this is not how you will probably feel, but many women are believing a lie and will feel that way. I hope to convince some of them to think this through very carefully to be sure they understand what it will be like to be a post-menopausal woman who has a maternal instinct but no children.

  168. theshadowedknight

    You hit a vulnerable spot. The immediacy and violence of the reaction is a hint to how sensitive it truly is. Pity them, for they have soul deep wounds that many can never heal.

    The ever so tolerant, noble, and wise atheist left is always ready to do violence. Far from being enlightened, they embody primitive savagery. They are little more than fanatic barbarians, fighting a war for their religion. Once they bring down society, they will be gathered up and put down, either by their leaders or the rebuilders.

    The Shadowed Knight

  169. FuzzieWuzzie

    Maybe I didn’t see it until just now, but feminists are out to pull women down too. As long as there have been people, the source of power for women has been the burden incurred by reproduction. While women had children to take care of, it was on men to provide with extra work to cover. Choosing to go child free, these women make themselves into eunuchs.

  170. Sylvia D. Lucas

    Don’t worry. People will keep having kids. As in any aspect of nature, not every living creature is exactly the same. And because humans have the capacity for rational thought, there will naturally be some of us who choose not to have children because it isn’t the life we want. We also know there are many like you who want children and who will continue to populate the earth as a result. We’ll be fine.

  171. Farm Boy

    This is probably the most bigoted, judgemental circlejerk I have ever seen

    Lots of labels. Would you care to elaborate on your reasoning?

  172. Farm Boy

    I’m sorry that some of these people have threatened you.

    The old “feel threatened by” meme.

    To point out that something makes little sense is to “feel threatened by”.

    In this motel break room, Good Morning America is blasting away with some Lady Gaga silliness. I will point out that this all makes little sense, and I am not threatened by such vacuous coverage

  173. Simone

    I don’t want children. Do you know why I don’t want children? Simply because I don’t like them. I think they’re ugly, disgusting and annoying. I have no urge to be a mother even though I have been told I’m good with kids. I don’t have the patience to deal with children, nor do I have a strong enough stomach.

    So it’s selfish not to have children now, is it? Right, well, let’s have a look at some of the reasons why people want children.

    *I* want someone to look after *me* when I’m old.

    *I* want a purpose in life.

    *I* don’t want my family line to die out.

    *I* want to look after grandchildren.

    Do you see all the *I* in that?

  174. Farm Boy

    And this…this makes the writer of this article, and many others…very frightened.

    SSM is both threatened and frightened, it would seem.

    I would doubt it though; as she lives in a land where people like these latest visitors hold sway. And she holds up very well.

  175. Farm Boy

    What a sad, self hating broodmare must have written this post.

    She is self-hating, threatened, and frightened.

    Some reasoned arguments might be in order.

  176. Bane

    Your article made me want to punch a baby, damn. “Darwinian Religion.” Oh jeebus, it hurts. This article was such a fail I am almost speechless.

  177. Farm Boy

    SSM, you should be ashamed of yourself, making a guy want to punch a baby.

    Why is it that these types always act so exasperated and militant?

    I might not be happy, but I am glad I am not one of them.

  178. Farm Boy

    Do you see all the *I* in that?

    Well, you know, kids do like to be born. It is not so selfish to make this happen for them.

  179. sunshinemary Post author

    Your article made me want to punch a baby, damn.

    Can someone please explain to me how feminists manage to get through a day? Because if reading an article on the internet is this emotionally distressing to them that so many of them have violent fantasies, I cannot imagine how they deal with real life.

    It's odd because feminism portrays men as violent and oppressive, yet look who is the most labile and violent-sounding – feminists! And even though a lot of men read my site, I have never had any threaten me, whereas I have had scores of comments from feminists either fantasizing about violently attacking me or outright threatening to do so. I've been doxxed (when I was still blogging anonymously, but as recently as two days ago I had a feminist who apparently thought I was still blogging under an assumed name threaten to "out" me) threatened with violence and sexual assault, mocked, bullied, and told I have "no right" to express my opinions online…all by feminists and leftists.

    That's interesting to me.

  180. Farm Boy

    Do these people have their own group? Do they go from site to site trolling about how people should not have kids? What a sterile life.

    [ssm: This particular group is coming from Reddit. They have a "childfree" group there.]

  181. sunshinemary Post author

    And by the way, it’s not that men all agree with me and that’s why they don’t threaten me. I’ve had plenty of strongly-worded disagreements from non/anti-feminist men, including some that were of the “fuck off, bitch” type. Yet never once a threat, ever.

    Yet who can forget the GOMI feminist who told me that they hoped I got fucked with a rusty pipe?

    Quite odd.

  182. sunshinemary Post author

    I cannot imagine ever responding to an internet article with this level of hysterical rage. Many of them objected to my referring to women who lack a maternal drive as “abnormal” yet I would counter that the proof is in the pudding:

    [–]bee_fast 6 points 12 hours ago
    The comments made me so incredibly enraged I had to stop reading. Bunch of dead brained breeder sheep.

    [–]BerylUbergirthI am sloth woman, hear me snore 6 points 15 hours ago
    As the adult daughter of narcissists i beg to differ. That cunt has no right to call us narcissists. While many of us just dont want kids some of us have genetic illnesses we dont wish to pass on and/or think about overpopulation problems.
    As the daughter of narcs i can tell you people with narcissistic personality disorder are fucking awful parents that fuck everyone over. That human windsock should close her legs and open her mind. Fuck that offensive piece of shit.

    [–]darkequestrian24/F/No fucking way 4 points 16 hours ago
    I would just love to find the woman who wrote this blog, go rifling through her kitchen cabinets, find one of her skillets and hit her in the face with it.

    http://www.reddit.com/r/childfree/comments/1kly2x/according_to_this_woman_were_all_just_narcissistic/

  183. Ton

    You can tell how fucked up your lifestyle choices are by how much time you spend defending it. The same works with emotional responses. The more fucked up your lifestyle the more emotional and angry the defense of said fucked up lifestyle.

  184. Elspeth

    Wow, what a hornet’s nest! Such passion and offense expressed over something that should be no big deal.

    I cannot recall the last time I got offended when some woman questioned my stance and example on wifely submission, and it happens often enough. I figure it’s their right to feel however they want, and allow it to roll off.

    The fact that they got so touchy reveals more than they think your post reveals.

  185. FuzzieWuzzie

    A few day ago, Frank suggested that I grow some claws and go out and do battle with these haters. Do I want to bring myself down to their level?
    Anyway, none of them have touched on the big impediment to having children: finding a willing life partner, i.e. marriage. Otherwise, having children would be irresponsible.

  186. FuzzieWuzzie

    As fewer women will self-identify as feminist, what will remain will more radical and hateful. Violence has already occurred in Tennesee. We’ll see more of it. When they go that way, they’ll lose their credibility with the mainstream. Another event is planned for Toronto next month. There’ll be lots of cameras. Maybe then?

  187. theshadowedknight

    SSM, note that although he is probably the most outspoken in his habitual contempt and disdain for this kind of woman, no one is threatening Ton. They are cowards, trying to target who they think they have a chance at hurting.

    Also, consider that these are the kinds of people running the country. They do not get through through the day. Instead, they break everything they can reach in an nihilistic frenzy.

    Bane, you were merely born in the darkness, but I was formed into it. I grew up as it; did not see the light until I was already a man. I will break your body, then your spirit. When America is in ashes, then you will have my permission to die.

    The Shadowed Knight

  188. FuzzieWuzzie

    Farm Boy, CAFE is going to have another lecture. This time on male safe spaces. It should draw lots of feminist protesters. Do you think Miss Frothing Fornication Mouth (Big Red) will attend? So far, they haven’t crossed the line with direct violence, but, last November, it was pretty ugly.

  189. Farm Boy

    Childfree people aren’t hurting you, so why do parents care?

    The future belongs to those who show up. Thugspawn is not what I have in mind for the continuance of society.

  190. Farm Boy

    What a sad, self hating broodmare must have written this post.

    Derive this conclusion. Show your work. Partial credit given.

  191. Farm Boy

    I felt disgusting and dirty reading this article

    So you admit that you are disgusting, at least sometimes?

  192. Farm Boy

    I’d rather a woman or a man be happy with their lives

    Well then, the government should just give everybody free cocaine.

    Some things are more important than short term pleasure.

    And for some things, the satisfaction comes in the long term.

  193. NCCF

    Christians sure can be judgmental.

    (btw, I consider myself a Christian. I don’t want children. I’m educated, in a relationship, and not particularly ugly or fat).

  194. Frank

    Your article made me want to punch a baby, damn.

    Not wanting kids, I get.

    Hating kids just because? Dude, you’ve got probs.

  195. FuzzieWuzzie

    Maeve, CAFE, Canadian Association For Equality. They’re an unaffiliated student organization in Toronto sponsoring lectures that get feminists all riled up. The lecturers, so far, have been pretty mild.

  196. FuzzieWuzzie

    Maeve, I don’t, but i follow them. I used to be a big fan of A Voice for Men whos closely follows this and reports. I can’t answer for Farm Boy, but it sounds like his work keeps him busy. I only know Farm Boy through this blog and he is a man of mystery.

  197. Farm Boy

    Yes, I stay busy. I have a couple of jobs. No, I don’t attend these things; if I travel it is to places more scenic.

    So I am a man of mystery. I should be a chick magnet then.

  198. Maeve

    Sorry FB & Fuzzie – hope I didn’t insult or anything. Actually, I think it would be entertaining to go and observe the spectacle – rather like performance art or something. Sit back in a comfy chair with a very large latte (and a really huge slice of chocolate cake) and watch the drama and mayhem.

  199. FuzzieWuzzie

    Maeve, no problem. Being an American, it would not be wise to enter in a conflict in foreign country. Argueing with feminists takes skills that I don’t have. Anyway, the AVfM boys will have lots of cameras and will post to youtube saving us transportation and hotel costs.

  200. Farm Boy

    hope I didn’t insult or anything

    No you did not.

    As for insulting, I have been insulted all of my life. I have the ability to see right through people. They do not like this.

  201. Morvena

    I’m not going to argue the point that the majority of women have a maternal instinct to at least some degree. For the women that truly don’t, they may be unusual but is that lack of instinct incompatible with being a good person and a good Christian?

  202. Farm Boy

    For the women that truly don’t, they may be unusual but is that lack of instinct incompatible with being a good person and a good Christian?

    That caveat was mentioned in the original post and subsequent comments, yet people continue to use that as a club to beat the whole concept with.

  203. Morvena

    Yes but I’m not actually trying to disagree with the point of the original post or the comments. I’m just thinking out loud, since I -have- seen people elsewhere all but state that a woman must be a monster if she has no maternal instinct. On the flip side, it makes me angry when people pick at the SAHMs – since feminism is supposedly all about having the freedom to choose, then women choosing to be SAHMs shouldn’t be a problem right? Oh wait, but it is, because the feminist collective knows what’s better for you than anyone else does and being “just” a wife and mother isn’t it.

    However, if I’ve insulted or offended anyone by my musings then I apologize, as that wasn’t my intent. Sometimes the thoughts and questions in my head don’t translate very well.

  204. Maeve

    Morvena, the biggest lie feminists tell is that they’re all about women having choices. This is a big, fat, hairy lie. They’re all about women making the “choices” they tell them to make. It really is like a cult and there is no room for dissent.

  205. Farm Boy

    Well Farm Boy, I’d rather like to have your superpower.

    It is more of a curse than a blessing. people can sense that I see their BS, and even if I do not act upon it, are uncomfortable.

  206. Christina

    Beautifully designed interiors are my “sooper dooper” (wordpress auto corrected that to ‘doper’ which is just as accurate…) distractors from the virtues of motherhood.

    /sigh – if only I didn’t have children and several more thousand dollars a month, I could have a house that looked JUST like that.

    But then I kick myself and remind myself that artwork on the walls gives the home character.

    P.S. Truly, my kids are some of the best parts of my life… they make me smile and laugh way more than a professionally decorated bathroom would…. and more genuinely than a bunch of ninny, one-upping, selfish, bitchy women would.

  207. Pingback: Creepy. | Sunshine Mary

  208. Izabel in NYC

    Wow, some of you must have incredibly boring lives. I thought the whole child-free bashing movement was so 1995…
    I wholeheartedly disagree with everything you have written, and most of the comments. I am a 35 year old, educated, career-oriented, married woman. I am child-free (or “childess”, if that term strokes your ego) BY CHOICE. My husband and I make well into the 6-figure range each year, so we could certainly afford.at least one child, if not four. However, we don’t have any desire to procreate or adopt. Ever. With all of the disabilities increasing in children as time goes on (particularly autism), it is becoming a lot more common to choose the child-free lifestyle. That, and we really just do not WANT kids. Plenty of parents with several children end up in nursing homes anyway, I’ve seen it firsthand. I also know of many aging adults who saved lots of money by NOT breeding and now live out their last years in the best of care, either in senior communities or top-notch medical facilities. Birthing does NOT guarantee a leisurely life in your twilight years.
    Happy trails to you if laying on the beach watching a bunch of kids run around is your idea of a good time, but many of us beg to differ. And we are NOT narcissistic, we just have different values than the rest of you. By the way, not everyone in this world is a Christian. I am half-Jewish and was baptized Catholic, but am very turned off by the church. Now I occasionally attend Episcopalian services. Nonetheless, religion has nothing to do with our decision to not have children. Narrow-mindedness and judgement is what drives people from your faith!
    So, enjoy your children. I’m going to enjoy my husband, pets, yearly trips to Europe, our very large paychecks (which we don’t need to spend on children), my fulfilling career, and my life which I am extremely happy with. Don’t judge, don’t hate.

  209. Simon

    I admire you anti-feminist stance, most people probably would but are too frightened to say! Nonetheless, I feel that childlessness and people choosing to live alone is a reflection of Western societies. You mention “fleeting and illusory” pleasures, that pretty much sums up contemporary, Western experience. As for Darwinism, even though the theory evolution is reasonable it is not entirely accurate, and it is incomplete. Sure the impulse to have sex and bring children into the world is potent and it is, as you mention innate, however, as ever, human behaviour is dependent on the external world as well as subjective experience.

  210. Momma

    Even from a more worldly perspective, having children and raising a family is probably the most emotionally satisfying, unifying, memory-making adventure there is. Christmas mornings, soccer games, family road trips, holiday gatherings, snuggles and giggles to enjoy, tears and frustrations to sooth, growth, change, progress. Some day, my husband and I will have an empty nest…we will continue to enjoy each other, we will be blessed by decades of shared memories, and will look forward to many phone calls and visits with our kids, their spouses, and — God willing –our many grandchildren.

    I can’t imagine the couples-only vacations, the wine pairings, the grownup dinner parties, and whatever else the “childfree” advocates do being anything that could hold a candle to family life blessed with kids. Belying their insistence of childless contentment is the weird elevation of pets to the status of a child. They push their dogs and cats around in strollers, tote them in bags, dress them, buy them gourmet treats, give them Christmas stockings filled with goodies, and even have their disappointed parents resigning themselves to referring to their “grandpuppies.” Sad. And kinda creepy.

  211. Kaye Star

    “…having children and raising a family is probably the most emotionally satisfying, unifying, memory-making adventure there is.”

    For some, not all. Otherwise, child abuse would be non-existent.

    “I can’t imagine the couples-only vacations, the wine pairings, the grownup dinner parties, and whatever else the “childfree” advocates do being anything that could hold a candle to family life blessed with kids.”

    “Blessed with kids” is a phrase my own mother used to fool people. She’s one of the most bitter people I have ever known.

    You are obviously happy and that’s great, but no two people are alike. Everyone has different values and preferences. Just as you can’t imagine anything better than family life with children, another person imagine anything better than being alone. That doesn’t make one lifestyle better or worse than the other.

    I hate being constantly surrounded by people. I would prefer to live alone and die alone. I do not want children and I am uncertain whether or not I want to marry. My best friend, on the other hand, hates being alone. She loves being around people. This is a person you can call at 3 AM and be greeted with cheerfulness at your call than grumpiness at being awoken. She is a bouncing ball of energy and optimism while I am more laid-back and reserved. She wants a house full of children. If I could give that gift to her for Christmas, I would. Yet, a house full of people – regardless of age – is my personal Hell.

    We are two very different people, yet we are very good friends. I would never tell her a large family couldn’t hold a candle to being able to enjoy aloneness, nor would she ever me my preferred aloneness and enjoyment of quiet couldn’t hold a candle to family life with children. In fact, there was an occasion where I was criticized for this and she told that person off.

    What is a dream for one person may be a nightmare for another, and there is nothing wrong with that.

  212. Simon

    Interesting responses… What interests me is the trend towards more people opting for childless long-term relationships and more people wishing to live alone and not have relationships. How does this reflect our society(ies)?

  213. Put Your Time to Better Use

    Yawn. Another piece of trash written by some holier-than-thou busybody. Hardly worth the two minutes it takes to write this.

    All I’ll say is: visit a nursing home some day. Ask the people there if they have children and how often these children visit.

    In the meantime, enjoy the bliss of ignorance and your false sense of grandeur.

  214. Eva

    So far in 31 years I have never had a maternal instinct. This was never a choice I consciously made. I have simply never wanted children. If this changes I will adopt as there are millions of children in need of a loving home. But I do not see it happening. As far as I know none of you are biologists nor do you inhabit my skin. So you are unqualified in a multitude of ways to state whether or not a woman can possibly lack the desire to reproduce.

    I am not Christian. I do not share your religious views. I volunteer my time to good causes. I work two jobs and maintain a humble lifestyle. I care deeply about my family and friends. I do not get manicures and designer clothing. I am in a monogamous relationship of 12+ years. I am not an evil or selfish person.

    I believe that the world is a difficult place. I believe in working to solidify my future not only financially but socially as well. I do not rely on handouts. I find great joy in giving, making things, traveling, and maintaining my health to the best of my control. My jobs are not my life. They are merely the means by which I can do what I enjoy.

    There is a difference between childfree and childless. Childfree is a choice. Childless indicates a lack of something desired. I am childfree.

    Happiness and education are positively correlated with the lack of desire to have children. This means that the more educated you are the less likely you are to want children. Religion has a negative correlation. This means that you are more likely to want children if you are religious. This is just one of the many influences that can determine whether or not someone chooses to reproduce (when such a choice is viable). Many childfree individuals are concerned about the future their offspring might face. Others do not want to pass on hereditary illnesses. Others know that they are not equipped to properly support children. Many are concerned about the environment.

    If you look at the result of numerous studies which ask people why they chose to have children, you will find that among the top reasons are the following: 1) not wanting to be alone in old age, 2) believe that is simply what one does, 3) the pregnancy was not planned. The first is common and in my opinion the epitome of selfishness. One who creates another living being with the intention of making them an indentured servant is thinking only of oneself and likely to be disappointed. A visit to the nursing home would verify as much. Your children will end up having children too and will have no time, means, or patience for you.

    Other studies looking at the most common regrets people have while on their death beds do NOT include the decision to not have children. Instead, people regret not traveling more, not working less, and not cherishing their relationships with friends and family.

    The bottom line in all of this is that you can do nothing about any of this. Except rant on the internet about it, I suppose. Otherwise, I WILL call myself a mother to my pets. My non disappointed mother will treat them like grandchildren and buy them toys and treats. They are not a replacement for something I never wanted or had in the first place. I will get them proper veterinary care and love them immensely. No religious figure will tell me what to do with my reproductive organs.

    I will not have children. I am not narcissistic. I do not care if you have children. I do not care if the human race ceases to exist in several generations (it will not). I do not care what the Bible says. I have not been brainwashed by feminist media that I was not exposed to until I was well beyond the age of knowing that I was not meant to be a mother.

    There is nothing you can do about any of this.

    I feel sorry for those of you who feel the need to rally against an issue that is so minor compared to others. I feel sorry for those who feel threatened by those who have made different life choices. There is no need for this. There is no need for comparison or bitterness. Exercise the love and acceptance that is preached by your doctrine and be a good mother, wife, neighbor, citizen, and so on. There is surely more happiness and peace to be found in these and other ventures.

  215. Robin S.

    I am a pretty, fit, talented, fun, Mensa-qualifying 50-something gal whose genes did not have to be removed from the gene pool but, alas, did not have children. I am also a Christian. I don’t remember ever having a desire for children, let alone this “intense” desire you claim ALL women have. I had one doll when I was little and my mom said I played with it for 30 seconds and then tossed it in the corner and went outside to climb trees with the neighbor boy.. Most of my friends have children and I think that’s cool. By the time I met anyone I wanted to marry, considering having children was a moot point anyway, so there you have it. I have a nice life and friends of all ages. What bothers me are people who think that their way is the right way, the ONLY way, and label others pejoratively if they are different. I just think posts like this are incredibly sad because they totally turn off non-Christians from ever seriously looking at becoming followers of Jesus Christ and accepting and sharing his great love and forgiveness.

  216. KA

    Women who don’t have children are narcissist. Really? I have chosen no to breed. But what I have chose to do it help my community when it comes to helping children (who are not mine) through volunteer work and donations to children’s hospitals.
    I am not contributing to the overpopulation of the planet. I have no desire to have a mini-me. I am not having kids just so they can love me unconditionally and take care of me when I am old but I am the narcissist? Parents think they are so selfless, WRONG! You want to be selfless, then go ADOPT! But most won’t because you need your DNA which makes you A NARCISSIST!

  217. Minna

    What a ridiculous article! I’m non-religious child-free 40 years old woman, and to say that there is either something genetically wrong with me or I’m denying my true nature is arrogant and ignorant. Women in general, as females of other mammals, don’t have any separate “need to nurture offspring” but the same sexual urges as men (males) do. Without birth control having children naturally follows from not denying those urges. The human history is full of examles of women trying to control their reproduction, but only during the last century has it been possible for women to truly decide whether to have children or not. It is only natural that the number of child-free women is rising when having children is no more the only allowed way of life for women. Women has the same mental capacity the men have, and that means that many women are too bright to be tied to a chain in the kitchen. Luckily these days they have an option to have a full career and use their mental abilities in full – something for which men have never been criticized. I’m thankful I have had the change to enter to University, earn my PhD and carry on with my research without being forced to take part in the overpolulation of the planet.

  218. Farm Boy

    I’m denying my true nature is arrogant and ignorant

    Is it? When are women feeling most like women? When they are mothers. Perhaps there is something to that.

  219. Farm Boy

    Women in general, as females of other mammals, don’t have any separate “need to nurture offspring” but the same sexual urges as men (males) do

    Like, wow…

    Do you really believe that?

    Since you made an assertion that is meant to be universal, then only one case can refute it. Mothers, it would seem have an innate desire to nurse their young, and derive great pleasure in doing so. Furthermore, they do not want to leave them at all; and as such maternity leave was invented. Of course, there are more aspects to women and their behavior that show their innate desires.

    As for the “same sexual urges as males” aspect, it is pretty obvious that men are attracted to physical appearance and women attracted to power. Is there really anything to dispute here?

  220. Farm Boy

    Women has the same mental capacity the men have

    Actually, no. Men have a much greater range of IQ than women do. This means that most of the most intelligent people in the world are men, and it also means the most of the dumbest people in the world are men. Furthermore, it means that most women are “average”. In the vocations that require the high intelligence, that is where you find men, and rightly so.

  221. Farm Boy

    I’m thankful I have had the change to enter to University, earn my PhD and carry on with my research without being forced to take part in the overpolulation of the planet.

    Perhaps you are thankful, but are you happy, or even content?

  222. Farm Boy

    Luckily these days they have an option to have a full career and use their mental abilities in full – something for which men have never been criticized.

    I don’t know about that. It did not work out so well for Socrates.

    FYI, he died of an overdose of wedlock

  223. Farm Boy

    I’d rather be a narcissistic, atheist, no bio-kids woman than be as smug and judgmental as you are.

    So what is wrong with being “judgmental”? Are we not all judgmental, as we are always making assessments, often with less than ideal information. What you are really saying is that “I do not like her judgments because they conflict with my judgments”.

    As for being smug, I would not believe that this applies to SSM. She is looking at the world as it is, trying to understand it, and attempting to formulate solutions for the betterment of families and society. It really is not going so well, especially the “formulate solutions” part. This is not “smug”

  224. Farm Boy

    I am a pretty, fit, talented, fun, Mensa-qualifying 50-something gal whose genes did not have to be removed from the gene pool but, alas, did not have children. I am also a Christian. I don’t remember ever having a desire for children, let alone this “intense” desire you claim ALL women have.

    Not all women seem to have it, but most do. My sister was like that. For those that don’t; sure, go out there and have a career. Nobody is stopping you. Even in the olden days, women could have a career, mostly as a teacher or nurse, but a career none the less. People who encourage “career first” are doing a disservice to most women, who would probably be happier being a mother first.

  225. Farm Boy

    I had one doll when I was little and my mom said I played with it for 30 seconds and then tossed it in the corner

    But most girls of that era did not do so.

  226. Farm Boy

    What bothers me are people who think that their way is the right way,

    It does seem that people have innate desires. For many people, ignoring them leads to unhappiness. That is what is being said here.

  227. Minna

    “Actually, no. Men have a much greater range of IQ than women do. This means that most of the most intelligent people in the world are men, and it also means the most of the dumbest people in the world are men. Furthermore, it means that most women are “average”. In the vocations that require the high intelligence, that is where you find men, and rightly so.”

    Farmboy, honey, most men are “average” as well, that is the whole point of Bell curve. Sure, there may be,say, 1.5 really high-IQ men towards 1 such woman, but the high-IQ women are out there. For example, in Finland most MDs are women. Some of the highly paid engineering jobs are men dominated, but if I consider the sample size of about 70 (my high school class 20 years ago), the ones that went for those jobs were not the high-IQ guys. Rather the really bright ones did not after the money but a mentally fulfiling career. I’m a theoretical physicist myself (and a member of Mensa), and really happy with my life choices and the fact that I have been able to listen to myself.

    As far as your claims for human sex drives go, just open your eyes and observe the society. Even a cat can take excellent care of her kittens, but she hardly had kittens in her brain when she copulated. On the course of evolution humans have become aware of the fact that sex leads to children and ever since tried to invent ways to prevent the pregnancy. Because of that awareness it is also possible to “want children”, but it is definitely not a primary need. Sex is.

  228. Vera

    “Against feminism and female suffrage. Pro- family and patriarchy.”
    Having read the article, the debate and this headline, I am really happy I live in a predominantly non-religious country. I have enough respect for myself and for other people – males and females – to feel abhorred at the idea of a society in which half of the population is deprived of the right to vote and probably any other right, simply on the basis of sex, and in which the only roles I would have – regardless of my personal capacities, skills and plans – would be those of an obedient wife and a non-stop-procreating mother.
    In the end, it seems, there is really no big difference between extremist Islamists in Saudi Arabia and extremist Christians in the USA.

  229. Cicero

    @Vera. Humanism is a religion as well. So your statements are technically hate speech and bigotry of a minority in your relativistic feminist humanist feel good egalitarian country. Doublethink much?

  230. Farm Boy

    .feel abhorred at the idea of a society in which half of the population is deprived of the right to vote

    I do not oppose women’s suffrage because of religion, but because women vote in a manner detrimental to the propagation of civilization.

  231. Vera

    “Because women vote in a manner detrimental to the propagation of civilization”

    What exactly does it mean, to vote in a manner detrimental to the propagation of civilization?
    It is also quite interesting to hear that women vote all in the same way and that in a country with the secrecy of voting, it is so well known how different people vote.

    “Humanism is a religion as well. So your statements are technically hate speech and bigotry of a minority in your relativistic feminist humanist feel good egalitarian country. Doublethink much?”

    This does not seem to make much sense to me. Could you rephrase?

  232. Farm Boy

    What exactly does it mean, to vote in a manner detrimental to the propagation of civilization?

    Glad that you asked. Women typically vote (at least a little bit) based on what is termed the Feminine Imperative. What this really means is that they vote for people/laws that seemingly give women the advantage. These advantages manifest themselves in divorce laws, affirmative action, VAWA, IMBRA, general dole, etc. All of these changes have much impact; larger government outlays, disincentivized men, babies out of wedlock, broken marriages, general unhappiness, etc. In the long run, we will go broke and most men will care less.

  233. Vera

    People usually vote (or could be expected to vote) for those parties which promise to defend their interests. That is quite normal, isn´t it? If those groups of people whose political preferencies you dislike were deprived of their voting rights, that would not be democracy any more, that would be a very totalitarian system.

    Moreover, since unlike other groups (professional groups, religious groups, political groups etc.) women/ men are in no way homogenous, I do not think there is any regular pattern of voting among women/ men. Do you have any evidence to the contrary?

    Finally, sorry for the question but – who are you to decide who is and who is not entitled to vote or to have other rights? Imagine someone is persuaded that Christians are very conservative, vote in a way dangerous to the modern liberal and democratic society and, hence, should all be deprived of their voting rights. Would that seem as a legitimate requirement to you? It would not to me first, because I do not believe that Christians vote in a uniform way; and second, because although I strongly dislike big parts of the programmes of our pro-Christian parties, I respect the right of my co-citizens to vote for those parties. Democracy is not about everyone speaking in one single voice but about people with different preferencies coming together and trying to find compromises.

  234. Cicero

    @ Vera:
    “A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that the voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury; with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy which is alway followed by dictatorship.
    The average age of the worlds greatest civilizations had about 200 hundred years. During those 200 years these nations always progressed through the following sequence:
    From bondage to spiritual faith;
    From spiritual faith to to great courage;
    From courage to liberty;
    From liberty to abundance;
    From abundance to complacency;
    From complacency to apathy;
    From apathy to dependence;
    From Dependence back into bondage”. – Alexander Fraser Tyler

    My questions for you.
    1. Do voters vote for a political party that will give them what they need or what they want?
    2. What is the political intelligence of the majority voter?
    3. Does the average voter vote for more or less benefits?

  235. Vera

    I am not sure how this is linked to the previous debate.
    Sure, the political intelligence of the average voter is not extremely high. But that applies without big differences to men/women, people with various political orientation etc. Moreover, the concept of “political intelligence” in itself is quite tricky as it could mean different things for different people (simple knowledge, “right” political opinions etc.).
    The average voter usually votes for what s/he believes is good for him/herself and for the country in which s/he lives. That can mean more benefits but that can also mean radical budget cuts, if the population gets persuaded that that is what will help in the long run.
    The quote seems simplistic to me. Democracies are not all identical and I therefore do not think they will pursue the same course of development. Such schemes (1-8) are too mechanistic and ignore that in the end, any society is a living instrument.

  236. Cicero

    @Vera.
    “Sure, the political intelligence of the average voter is not extremely high. But that applies without big differences to men/women, people with various political orientation etc”.

    Can you prove the size of the differences?

    “Moreover, the concept of “political intelligence” in itself is quite tricky as it could mean different things for different people (simple knowledge, “right” political opinions etc.).”

    Well then did you read all the manifestos of political parties standing in your country?
    Do you know the names of all the cabinet members of you government?
    Do you know their experience and qualifications regarding their knowledge of their department?
    Do you know how many cabinet posts there are?

    “The average voter usually votes for what s/he believes is good for him/herself and for the country in which s/he lives. That can mean more benefits but that can also mean radical budget cuts, if the population gets persuaded that that is what will help in the long run.”

    So the party will give benefits to its base of supporters by taking away from those who who are in the minority and/or opposition to try and get elected next time around for their government benefits. And how can the party persuade anyone when you just said that the average voter isn’t politically intelligent?

    “The quote seems simplistic to me.”

    Simplistic or not history has shown it to be true.

    “Democracies are not all identical”

    You are confusing the democratic process with democracies.

    “and I therefore do not think they will pursue the same course of development. Such schemes (1-8) are too mechanistic and ignore that in the end, any society is a living instrument.”

    You say so yet don’t give any examples…. you only say what you think. And society being a living instrument, not being politically intelligent not knowing history wanting benefits will repeat the same mistakes. As history has shown and can now be seen.

  237. Vera

    We all only say what we think, right?

    Since you would like to deprive certain groups of people of their voting right, I guess the burden of proof to show that all members of these groups are politically immature and uninformed is on your shoulders. Yet, I personally guess the situation in the US will not be markedly different from that in Europe, in which the interest in and knowledge about politics does not seem to copy any simple cultural, social or political schemes (if you speak French, you can read JM Donegani, La France en mutation).

    I am not sure political intelligence can be reduced to a simple knowledge of the names of the leading politicians. For me, it is more about having an idea about where you want your country to go and be able to identify parties which might hopefully be able to bring you there. Moreover, there is a simple logic saying that if the politicians decide about the lives of people, these people shall have the right to decide about politicians. It is somewhat similar to your old good no taxation without representation.

    “So the party will give benefits to its base of supporters by taking away from those who who are in the minority and/or opposition to try and get elected next time around for their government benefits.”

    Sure, this is a real risk and it is also what happens in many countries now (and what accounts to a large extent for the recent revolutions in Europe and Middle East). Yet, do you truly think that the best way fo cope with this problem is to limit the right to vote of some groups, for instance women? I believe that would make the situation even worse, because you would have less people able to checking the power.

    I agree that societies will certainly commit many mistakes. But that is because we are all just human beings and we use the trial-and-error method. This method has already shown us that conferring rights upon all people certainly has disadvantages but it is far better than living in a totalitarian or autocratic society.

    What examples exactly do you ask for? And could you yourself give examples of all those fallen democracies you see around? My impression is that over the past decades, democracy has become a more, rather than less frequent form of the political regime.

  238. Cicero

    @ Vera
    “We all only say what we think, right?”

    And this is the problem. People only saying what they think not what they know and can prove.
    So I take it you can’t prove the size differences, didn’t read the manifestos, you don’t know the names and qualifications and you don’t know how many there are.

    “Since you would like to deprive certain groups of people of their voting right,”
    Well can children vote? Can the mentally handicap vote?
    Your claim is fallacious.

    “I am not sure political intelligence can be reduced to a simple knowledge of the names of the leading politicians.”
    Well if you don’t even know the basics….

    “What examples exactly do you ask for? And could you yourself give examples of all those fallen democracies you see around? My impression is that over the past decades, democracy has become a more, rather than less frequent form of the political regime.”
    Firstly it was a quote that I used in order to ask questions, I made no claim to its accuracy at the time.
    Secondly you refuted the quote without any factual evidence to which I replied. You made the claim first thus “semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit”.
    And again “My impression” doesn’t prove anything.

  239. Vera

    Cicero, this is just a debate forum, so people exchange their opinions here. You also do so, don´t you?

    “Semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit”. True. The thing is, I do not want to act (agit), it is the author of this blog and its sympathisers, who want to deprive certain groups of people of their voting rights. So, according to the maxim you rightly invoke, shouldn´t it be upon you and Mary to give evidence that there is a sharp difference in voting patters and political intelligence between men and women (I do not know who else besides women you would like to exclude from the political sphere)? In any case, I sent you the reference to the book on France which analyses the political attitudes in one of the biggest European country. For you to check whether there is something similar on the USA, which is not my country (France is not either, anyway).

    Children, mentally handicapped – sure and this is a constant issue in the political debate, at least in Europe. The trend is to decrease the age limit and to narrow the circle of MH deprived of the voting right. In the two cases, the rationale for the limitation of the voting right is the mental incapacity of a vast majority of the membets of the two groups. Could you find any other group which would be in the same position?

    Sure, knowing basic is important. But it is not sufficient.

    In fact, could you kindly sum up, what exactly you fight for and on the basis of which arguments? That is I know that Mary is against women suffrage. Is it also your position, is it just women (or someone else) and why is it?

  240. Cicero

    @ Vera
    “So, according to the maxim you rightly invoke, shouldn´t it be upon you and Mary to give evidence that there is a sharp difference in voting patters and political intelligence between men and women (I do not know who else besides women you would like to exclude from the
    political sphere)?”
    My questions were directed at you. What you are trying to do is shift the burden of proof to others without giving proof to your claims to my questions.
    If you have issues with SSM’s posts then that is your problem not mine.

    “Children, mentally handicapped – sure and this is a constant issue in the political debate, at least in Europe. The trend is to decrease the age limit and to narrow the circle of MH deprived of the voting right. In the two cases, the rationale for the limitation of the voting right is the mental incapacity of a vast majority of the membets of the two groups. Could you find any other group which would be in the same position?”
    You concur then that a segment of the population are deprived of their voting rights? So can you prove that age has an influence on voting ability and what that age is? Can you prove what legislation defines as the degree of mentally handicapped individual not allowed to vote? Because psychologist are churning new mental syndromes by the year. And these people are voting.

    “Sure, knowing basic is important. But it is not sufficient.”
    No but knowing the basics is essential for success.

    “In fact, could you kindly sum up, what exactly you fight for and on the basis of which arguments? That is I know that Mary is against women suffrage. Is it also your position, is it just women (or someone else) and why is it?”
    You mean to say you haven’t figured it out yet?

  241. Vera

    “So can you prove that age has an influence on voting ability and what that age is?”
    Yes, indeed, I can easily prove a one-year-old has limited voting ability. Just bring me one (or one thousand). Of course, the exact age limit is open to question as people are not identical and do not get mature in the same year. That is why there is a constant debate about the age limit in most of the countries (not only with respect to voting rights, of course).

    “Can you prove what legislation defines as the degree of mentally handicapped individual not allowed to vote?” Prove what legislation defines? That sounds strange? Just check the legislation in your country/state and you will find out.

    Anyway, what does this have to do with men/women suffrage? Do you really compare the relationship bwteen men and women to that of the general society/menatlly handicapped or adults/children? I must admit, I truly do not understand.

    And no, I have not figured out what exactly you fight for. Moreover, I think people should speak for themselves because otherwise, there might be stupid misunderstandings.My position is quite simple: we are all human beings, so we should have the same rights independently of the nationality, race, language, religion, sex, etc. It is certainly not original but so far I have not come across anything better.

  242. Cicero

    @Vera.
    “Yes, indeed, I can easily prove a one-year-old has limited voting ability. Just bring me one (or one thousand). Of course, the exact age limit is open to question as people are not
    identical and do not get mature in the same year. That is why there is a constant debate
    about the age limit in most of the countries (not only with respect to voting rights, of course).”

    So the debate is about depriving a portion of the population of their voting rights. Is a 17 year 11 month person less capable than an 18 year 1 month individual?

    “Prove what legislation defines? That sounds strange? Just check the legislation in your country/state and you will find out.”

    I will rephrase how does legislature decide who is and who is not mentally handicapped? And who gets to decide what the degree is for compos mentis?

    “Anyway, what does this have to do with men/women suffrage? Do you really compare the relationship bwteen men and women to that of the general society/menatlly handicapped or adults/children? I must admit, I truly do not understand.”

    The truth isn’t found in the answers given but the questions asked. You are asking the wrong questions.

    “And no, I have not figured out what exactly you fight for. Moreover, I think people should speak for themselves because otherwise, there might be stupid misunderstandings.My position is quite simple: we are all human beings, so we should have the same rights independently of the nationality, race, language, religion, sex, etc. It is certainly not original but so far I have not come across anything better.”

    You say that yet at the same time you acknowledge two groups deprived of their “voting right”. That is called doublethink. So which is it ……should every body vote or just some?

  243. Vera

    “You are asking the wrong questions.”
    So, which are the correct ones?

    “So which is it ……should every body vote or just some?”
    Everybody…who is mentally able to understand what s/he does.

  244. Cicero

    @Vera
    “So, which are the correct ones?”
    Well that isn’t one of them.

    “Everybody…who is mentally able to understand what s/he does.”
    And who decides compos mentis again? A person either has a “right to vote” or they don’t. So which one is it?

  245. Vera

    “So, which are the correct ones?” Well that isn’t one of them.

    So, you do not want to tell me what your position is and on which arguments it is based. OK, I respect it but then, I do not think it is possible to continue this debate.

  246. Farm Boy

    Feminists don’t need much prodding in order to consider it to be good, but to show that it might be bad requires metaphysical certaintude.

    Perhaps it is best to look around you; with eyes open.

  247. Cicero

    @ Vera.
    How convenient for you then. Not wanting to answer the second question due to your lack of understanding the premiss of my first position.
    However as you wish. My apologies for not wanting to force feed you my position. This is due to the fact that my experience is that certain new ideas have more value being discovered than being told. To bad I was rather enjoying this.

  248. Farm Boy

    Consider this: now with many women in the workforce, and the economy more technologically advanced than ever, the US is running huge deficits.

    Why might this be?

  249. Farm Boy

    my experience is that certain new ideas have more value being discovered than being told

    Very true. Often it is best to try to position someone such that they discover things for themselves.

  250. JDG

    Western schools are mass producing this kind of thinking. The same objections, accusations, and questions all based on the same historically inaccurate narrative keep popping up. When are you ‘enlightened’ women going to bring something useful to the debate, like a SAMMICH?

  251. Vera

    Cicero, why should I answer your question? Don´t you think that “certain new ideas have more value being discovered than being told”. In other words, a discussion can only take place, if the two parties are both ready to engage in it constructively.

    Farm Boy, JDG. It is really funny to read your comments. Curses, insults, complaints, but unfortunately nothing more. Well, people evidently have different ideas about what it means to “bring something new to the debate”.

    All in all, I was interested to learn more about your points of view and the reasons behind them. But if “this kind of thinking” (or maybe thinking in itself) is wrong with you and if all you want is simply to hate someone, that is also an interesting piece of information for me.

    Best regards from Europe.

  252. JDG

    No one is hating here Vera. Pointing out the obvious isn’t insulting or hateful, and the sammich reference has much more meaning then you realize. You have to let down your pride to see it.

  253. Cicero

    @Vera: Your back allready?
    “Cicero, why should I answer your question? Don´t you think that “certain new ideas have more valuebeing discovered than being told”. In other words, a discussion can only take place, if the two parties are both ready to engage in it constructively.

    Never quite remembering telling you to answer my questions. You did so out of you own volition to which I am grateful.
    And our discussion was based on my questions to you on your views. The reason you want to out right know my position is in order to question it and most likey underrmine it rather than try and understrand it in the manner I was presenting it, regardless of the fact if you would agree with it or not. That is the
    thing with modern society. Instant gratification.

    All you want is for the discussion to take place in a manner you feel comfortable with because you know and understand what the discussion is about.
    And I am perplexed that you are of the view that our discussion to date wasn’t conducted constructively. If you read through our posts most of our raised points were settled. This is a strawman agrument from your side.

    However you need not fret, because you do not need to answer it. As I have no further desire to continue this with someone who can’t make up their mind whether they want to have a discussion or not.

  254. Rebecca Meyer

    This is a narrow-minded article. So, essentially, you are saying that every woman on the planet, whether she wants to have kids or not, should have them because that’s the only thing women are good for? How are women suffering by not having kids?? “Oh nooo, I have too much free time! I have too much time to spend with my family, friends, and significant other! Oh poor me, I have a full time job! Boo hoo!” I’m sorry, but just because women aren’t living the way YOU think they should DOESN’T mean they’re selfish. It means they’re making the best decisions for themselves. We live in 2014, not 1860. Women can vote, women have rights. Women can work, take birth control, and choose not to have kids. Get over it, and move on.

  255. Farm Boy

    This is a narrow-minded article.

    But is it incorrect in its logic and conclusion?

    So, essentially, you are saying that every woman on the planet, whether she wants to have kids or not, should have them because that’s the only thing women are good for?

    Your strawman is showing. What is being said is that most women are predisposed toward being mothers, and if prepared to do so, can be very good at it, to their contentment and the betterment of society. Some women, of course, are not really cut out for it, and they can do other things. Short answer — women should be encouraged to to become mothers first, and other occupations, after that.

  256. JDG

    It means they’re making the best decisions for themselves.

    They’re making the ‘best’ decisions for themselves, but at the expense of everyone else. Women’s ‘best’ decisions for themselves gave us abortion on demand (55 million+ babies murdered in their own mother’s womb), 50% divorce rates (nearly 70% initiated by women for trivial reasons), and 40% out of wedlock birth rates.

    Women’s ‘best’ decisions for themselves has influenced law makers to pass laws that destroy families, turn marriage into a sham, and remove fathers from their homes. Children that grow up without fathers are more likely to go to prison, use drugs, sell their bodies for money, and commit suicide.

    But that’s okay because this is 2014 and women can vote… and patriarchy… or something.

    Now get in the kitchen make me a sammich!

  257. FuzzieWuzzie

    “This sure is a sensitive topic.” It is because at the bottom of it, society is oriented to the needs of women due to their contribution in procreatio0n. Should they be perceived to fall down on that job, they would have to compete directly with men. At an intuitive level, women know this.

  258. Farm Boy

    It is always the same old strawman with these women. I suppose that they have nothing better.

  259. FuzzieWuzzie

    Speafing of strawmen…

    Note that all the characters who went insearch of qualities already had them, in abundance.

  260. Ton

    Hey little darling, you’re kind of cute…. I’ll fix that child free problem of yours.

  261. Farm Boy

    Maybe there should be a remake of the “Wizard of Oz”. Dorothy could be a fat bitch and go searching for an ability to resist carbs, plus some feminininity.

  262. FuzzieWuzzie

    Farm Boy, you’re on the right track but, I wouldn’t touch this classic. Better to write a whole new script about a woman’s path from stinker to sweetie. It could star Big Red. :)

  263. Rebecca Meyer

    @JPG: I’m pretty sure people don’t want kids aren’t contributing to the fact that people get abortions, people get divorced, and people have kids before they’re married. That’s life, and there’s nothing you can do to stop people from living their lives. So what? It’s not affecting you. But to insult all of those people is a disgusting thing to do. If you’re “Christian,” I’m sure insulting groups of people is frowned upon.

  264. Rebecca Meyer

    And what does children growing up without fathers have anything to do with not having kids? If someone doesn’t want kids, them there is no problem with that…duh.

  265. Farm Boy

    I’m pretty sure people don’t want kids aren’t contributing to the fact that people get abortions

    I am pondering that statement, and I wonder…

  266. Farm Boy

    That’s life, and there’s nothing you can do to stop people from living their lives.

    Not precisely. There are incentives, and they affect the deciosns that people make. Right now, those incentives are hurtling us down a path detremental to civilization.

  267. Farm Boy

    But to insult all of those people is a disgusting thing to do.

    Is it insulting, or is pointing out realities that one perhaps does not want to hear?

  268. FuzzieWuzzie

    Rebecca, thanks to technology, you do have absolute control over your fertility. However, most people, both men and women, see themselves as conscious entities forgetting that they are housed in flesh and blood. You’re a woman. Please don’t underestimate the power of your own biological imperative.

  269. Rebecca Meyer

    This is so funny. Pointing out “realities” of what? You haven’t given any evidence that not having kids would be a “detriment to civilization.” How is that going to lead to the end of the world when the majority of people on Earth choose to have kids? There has to be some balance of the population.

  270. Rebecca Meyer

    Naricissm? It’s selfish to live a happy life? I don’t quite agree with that. @SunshineMary: That article was just a bunch of sexist junk. What scientific or biological evidence did it have?

  271. b g

    Rebecca Meyers

    You haven’t given any evidence that not having kids would be a “detriment to civilization.”

    LOL, you actually somehow need evidence to grasp the reality that a lack of future citizens must mean the end of that society?

  272. FuzzieWuzzie

    Rebecca, this is from the BBC, so it is feminist in outlook and pooh-poohs a lot of, what I consider salient points. You need to see it all the way through. In the second half, they cover the demographic inversion. Considering that Japan is ten years ahead of us demographically, it scares me.

  273. FuzzieWuzzie

    Rebecca, please watch the video. The last time we experienced depopulation on this scale was in the 14th century with the Black Plague. While the population recovered in two generations, there were profound effects that were unpredictable and irreversible.

  274. b g

    Rebecca Meyers

    …and your particular society, your small part of our world, how is it doing, is it growing or is it declining? Think real hard.

  275. FuzzieWuzzie

    Rebecca, my comment or BG’s? If you are responding to mine, George Santanaya was right.

  276. Rebecca Meyer

    @BG: What do you mean by “society growing or declining”? That’s a really broad statement. Do you mean growing in numbers, in awareness, academically, finanacially? And what do you mean by “society”? The people, the media, the government? It’s too broad, so you’d have to narrow your comment down so that it makes sense enough to answer.

    @FuzzieWuzzie: I was referencing your Black Plague comment. It was so random and has nothing to do with what we were talking about, so it was funny. :)

  277. b g

    Rebecca Meyers

    Ignore immigration, is your base population within your country stable, increasing, or declining? What does the age of that population suggest for the future of yourself and your peers? Does it concern you?

  278. FuzzieWuzzie

    Rebecca, While i can’t remember the exact numbers from the video, they do predict Japan losing one third of its population by 2050. That does put it in the same ballpark. While the Plague was sudden, this will be ongoing. They can’t see an end to it.
    BG is Canadian. They’re much more aware of depopulstion, especially inland.
    This is already happening in Europe. Whole towns away from centers emptying.
    Please watch the video.

  279. Farm Boy

    Many people desire to be part of something larger than themselves. Having kids can be part of that.

  280. Farm Boy

    Mirror, mirror, on the wall… who is the most viking

    Well, Leif Erikson seems to be on the right path. Maybe he will discover a new world.

  281. Rebecca Meyer

    I agree with you, Farm Boy. That makes sense that some people could want that, and maybe for some people having kids is their way to do that.

    As for Fuzzie Wuzzie and BG…tooooo funny. Okay, anywhere in the world, absolutely anywhere, there are people who are homeless, children who are abandoned, and millions of people worldwide are starving. That is not up for debate. While there may be a decrease in population in some parts of the world, with disease, birthrates, and death rates, a slight decrease doesn’t make much of a dent in the world’s population.

  282. b g

    Rebecca Meyer

    LOL. both FuzzieWuzzie and myself are old enough to be your grandfather, there is nothing funny about our questions. We are both experienced enough to not be easily misled or diverted. Personally, I loved my late wife for more than 40 years, we spent hours talking about what we saw amongst us. I am not only well educated but far too old to be diverted by foolishness. Either debate honourably or accept that you simply cannot..

  283. FuzzieWuzzie

    Rebecca, please watch the video from the BBC that i linked to. Good information about Japan is hard to come by. At least in their case, I cannot attribute the unwillingness of men there to marry to feminism. Jobs that could have supported a family there with the security of lifetime employment are a thing of the past.

  284. FuzzieWuzzie

    What’s ironic about this convo is that I am watching “Eichmann” on youtube. There’s someone who knew how to depopulate. The movie starts with him in an Israeli prison acknowledging a document that he signed that stated that he was there of his free will.
    He was kidnapped by the Mossad in Argentina. Extradition from Argentina is very difficult.

  285. Rebecca Meyer

    @FuzzieWuzzie: You posted a video to lighten the mood, yet you’re still trying to debate with comments that don’t make sense? If you want to debate, then you have to give evidence that people can work with, not just drone on and on with nonsense. Nothing you’re saying has anything to do with the topic of this post…

  286. b g

    FuzzieWuzzie

    Yeah, I am a Canuck, and I saw that depopulation. In my parent’s time, one family could exist on a quarter of a section, feeding themselves on a mere 640 acres. The few of my cousins that still farm use huge machines to control 3 or 4 sections. Displacing hundreds of people. There was no employment, towns died. First,the young males left needing to seek opportunity elsewhere, a few years later the females looking for hope. Yeah, I was in someways fortunate because I did have scholarships, but realistically I had to worked as a roughneck on the extremely dangerous oilfields to finance my education. Nothing else paid a working man enough, in the end it is always economics.

  287. FuzzieWuzzie

    BG, I live in Indiana. Driving to the next town over a state highway takes me through farm country. It looks bleak and as recent as the last recession. I left the central coast of California, where I grew up, because it had gotten too expensive. Schools closing because working families had left.
    It is about economics. :(

  288. b g

    Rebecca Meyers

    LOL, I am making perfect sense, if perhaps using rather cold precise logic that you are not used to. It is a direct challenge, either answer my questions at 11:08 or admit that you simply cannot defend your position.

  289. JDG

    @JPG: I’m pretty sure people don’t want kids aren’t contributing to the fact that people get abortions,

    Of course they are. Who else would murder an unborn child but someone who didn’t want that child?

    And what does children growing up without fathers have anything to do with not having kids? If someone doesn’t want kids, them there is no problem with that…duh.

    I wasn’t commenting on whether or not women should have children. Personally I think it better that women with your world view don’t have children. This is what my comment was responding too:

    they’re making the best decisions for themselves.

    My point is that since women have been making decisions for ‘them selves’ they have been rapidly contributing to the demise of a once strong society. Their decision making is effecting the nature of laws that are passed and ruining the lives of other people as well as their own.

    Our world is populated with over 7 billion people. I don’t think we have to worry about society dying out anytime soon.

    What percentage of the worlds population is ‘our’ society?

    Birth rates for Western society are below replacement levels. At some point in the future ‘our society’ will no longer exists. The most likely demographic in line to replace us is probably not going to support your ideas for women.

    @FuzzieWuzzie: I was referencing your Black Plague comment. It was so random and has nothing to do with what we were talking about

    It has everything to do with what you were talking about. People are living longer and Western populations are shrinking. The world is going to change in a drastic way that will effect all of us, just like when the Black Plague reduced Europe’s population.

  290. Rebecca Meyer

    BG: What questions? You’re just rambling. If you gave me a clear question, I could answer it. But you’re not giving me any clear questions to debate on. My position is an opinion. The whole point of my comment in the first place was that the author seems to think she can dismiss someone’s opinion.

  291. Rebecca Meyer

    JDG: The whole point was that the author is a sexist quack, damning anyone who doesn’t have kids to Hell. Anyone who has views like that is just not right in the head.

  292. b g

    FuzzieWuzzie

    Yeah, it was always about economics and still is, unless you are finally lucky enough to finally meet somebody that actually matters a damn….at that point, the whole world changes for both. Seriously, I rather doubt that the needs can change that much over time. Because otherwise it is truly tragic for all of us…that is why I challenged Rebecca.

  293. Cicero

    @Rebecca Meyer
    “Women can vote” – does being able to not vote make you any less human?
    “women have rights” – and where do those rights come from?
    “Women can work” – Of course they can. The question is what work?
    “take birth control” – Instant gratification, quick fix, and zero responsibility [and if I might ad the "control" mechanisms were all invented by men for their convenience not yours]
    “and choose not to have kids” – I am sure that those monthly and quarterly sale figures, statistics and graphs of those women who work at service departments gives them the same joy as the laughter of a child does to a mother.
    “Get over it, and move on.”- Could the one that is stuck not perhaps be you?

  294. b g

    Rebecca Meyer

    Look you were bluntly asked questions at 11:08. Everybody in this discussion is going to view our discussion. You asked for clarification, I provided them. Now answer the questions. No honourable escape is possible.

  295. Rebecca Meyer

    @Cicero: What work? Whatever work they want. Birth control is for women to have control and protect themselves. Men’s convenience? Woooow, very disrespectful thing to say. After reading this blogger’s tagline, I see why the comments are so evil. You claim to be Christians but have horribly narrow-minded and archaic views. You need to time travel forward to 2014, bro.

  296. JDG

    Rebecca could you do me a favor and point out where she condemns women to hell? I can’t seem to find it.

    I should also point out that I have discovered that I am a sexist, racist, homophobic, bigot. Not because I hate anyone (because I don’t), but because I find my self in disagreement with feminism, the President of our country, and sinful sexual preferences.

    I used to think we Christians were judgmental until I began conversing with politically correct secular humanists. It’s not that I’m against judging mind you. Everyone judges and discriminates. It’s that I’m against incorrect judgments made for selfish purposes.

    Here is a link to an article that you may or may not find interesting indirectly related to declining Western demographics:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/10657673/Why-are-British-women-flocking-to-marry-Syrian-jihadis.html

  297. JDG

    You claim to be Christians but have horribly narrow-minded and archaic views.

    You keep using that word Christian. I don’t think it means what you think it means.

  298. Rebecca Meyer

    @BG: To your questions that I had to scroll back to find, my country’s population is stable. It’s the world as a whole we should be concerned about, not just our particular country of residence. Where I live there is rapid urbanization because the population is increasing. So, clearly, there isn’t a worry about people not having children.

  299. Cicero

    @ Rebecca
    “Whatever work they want.” – Ahh I see so that is why women are fighting with men to do all the dull and dangerous work that is required to keep 2014 running.
    “Woooow, very disrespectful thing to say.” No it just shows your ignorance
    “I see why the comments are so evil.” Yes telling the truth is like sunshine to Dracula.
    “You claim to be Christians but have horribly narrow-minded and archaic views.” – Could you be more specific?
    “You need to time travel forward to 2014, bro.” The lady has traded wisdom for wit. How droll.

  300. Rebecca Meyer

    Since the blogger of this site claims to be “Christian,” many of the commenters may be Christian. But in my opinion, Christianity should be about loving others, not calling everyone who doesn’t have the same beliefs as you “sinners.” The blogger says in the above post, “To suppress this desire requires cognitive machinations that have serious repercussions not only for the childless-by-choice woman but for all women around her. She will become self-obsessed, chasing after fleeting and illusory pleasures, and by doing so, she influences the female herd around her, even the ones who have children.” Sounds pretty damning to me.

  301. Cicero

    @ Rebecca
    “Christianity should be about loving others,”

    Well could you define love?

  302. Rebecca Meyer

    Love: Acceptance of others and caring for others. Sooo this means that sexism, homophobia, and racism are all forms of hate, all of which this blog is promoting. It’s disgusting, and a thousand steps backwards in becoming a better world. People who hate like that are the reason there are so many things wrong in the world.

  303. Cicero

    @ Rebecca
    “Acceptance of others ” yet you don’t accept the views of others on this blog.
    “caring for others” – this is a nebulous statement. Are you referring to feelings or actions?
    “Sooo this means that sexism, homophobia, and racism are all forms of hate, all of which this blog is promoting.” And who determines what is hate speech?
    “It’s disgusting, and a thousand steps backwards in becoming a better world.” Ahh so you are an eligarian.
    “People who hate like that are the reason there are so many things wrong in the world.” Well seeing as this is a blog full of people who don’t share your eligarian views and will not kowtow to your views. Does that then mean you hate us?

  304. JDG

    Rebecca you have it backwards. It is caring to warn some one when the course they are on is a bad one. Letting them continue on a course that is harmful is not love.

    Love is telling some one that their destructive behavior will hurt them and other people. Accepting the bad behavior and lifestyle choices that people make does not equate to caring for them.

    Look around you. The world is not becoming a better place, especially in Western societies which are becoming less influenced by Christianity every day.

    What is disgusting is using your exit as an entrance. Now that’s disgusting.

  305. Rebecca Meyer

    @JDG: Loving someone in spite of their flaws is love. You cannot expect someone to be perfect. If they’re sexist, homophobic, or racist? Yes, then you’re right, JDG. You should tell the person they are destructive and hurting others. If they are physically harming others, of course, do something. But if someone is doing something that isn’t REALLY doing any moral harm, then let them be.

  306. Cicero

    @ Rebecca Meyer

    What….. that is the witty comeback?
    No arguing any points?
    All I did was ask questions on your views. Might it be that you don’t know as much as you think you know? Or is it that you actually see that your argument blade cuts both ways?

  307. JDG

    Who says sexists views are morally wrong? Who is this arbitrator of right and wrong? Are you appealing to the creator of the universe or some other authority?

  308. b g

    Rebecca Meyers
    Yes. but before you save the entire world, what this mainly about your future, the remains of your own culture. Is your culture of any value?

  309. JDG

    @JDG: Sexist shit like that is why you’re an idiot.

    Does that mean no sammich will be forth coming?

  310. Rebecca Meyer

    Acceptance of those who are not sexist, racist, or homophobics. Those are all morally wrong viewpoints to have, and so obviously this whole blog is just filth.

  311. Cicero

    @ Rebecca
    “Acceptance of those who are not sexist, racist, or homophobics. Those are all morally wrong viewpoints to have, and so obviously this whole blog is just filth.”

    And who decides what is and what isn’t sexist, racist or homophobic?

  312. Rebecca Meyer

    The definitions of them? Each word clearly states the definition. You do speak English, right? Example: Sexism: discrimination against sex. Racisim: discrimination against race. Fairly simple. Well, at least I thought so. You’re a little slow with that one.

  313. Cicero

    @ Rebecca
    “Every human being should be treated equally.”
    So a blind man should then be allowed to become an air traffic controller?

  314. Cicero

    @ Rebecca
    “Each word clearly states the definition.”
    And who defines the definition?

  315. Farm Boy

    Public restrooms discriminate based on sex. Is this sexist?

    The Violence Against Women Act discriminates based on sex. Is it sexist?

  316. Cicero

    @ Rebecca
    Yes our vies are so silly you were able to not only rebut our silly question but refute them using reason and logic. And in no way ever used logical fallacies like appealing to emotions and ad hominems.
    Oh and as a parting gift to a 21st century renaissance women as yourself.
    “Civilization is only savagery silver-gilt”. H. Rider Haggard

  317. MarcusD

    I really think she ought to buy a book on demographic analysis. As has been said before: “the future belongs to those who show up” – well, if she doesn’t like the views espoused here…

  318. Ton

    I’ve read the Bible a time or three…. dozen. Never once does it say “thou shall not be sexist, racists, or homophobic”. It does say be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth and take domain over it.

  319. b g

    Reecca Meyer

    My beloved wife was Christian, but very quiet about her faith, she understood that I wrestled with my beliefs, She pinched my Bible because she had brought no book of her own to the West. So never mind imagining some weird cult, just answer the questions

  320. FuzzieWuzzie

    After a good night’s sleep, I came back to this thread.
    I don’t think Rebecca is on a quest for answers.

  321. Cicero

    @ FuzzieWuzzie
    No I think the answers started to scare her.
    That is why her arguments were more along the lines of “If you won’t accept my new point of view, then it is pretty obvious who the divisive on is”

  322. FuzzieWuzzie

    Cicero, I don’t think that was all of it. I do have to question her motivations. She wasn’t here to engage in an open conversation where knowledge is traded and both sides gain. That would have been constructive.
    Rebecca, should you be interested, here’s another

  323. FuzzieWuzzie

    Last night, I did take the time to reread the original post. It’s written with compassion. I think it’s detractors don’t like the conclusions.

  324. Farm Boy

    Miss Rebecca probably did not know why she was here. But even then, she probably changed her mind.

  325. Farm Boy

    All kids should be taught about logical fallacies in high school. Maybe even earlier.

  326. Ton

    She is here to get put in her place by a man/ men. It’s basically what every feminist/ woman wants. Her shit test is online and a different nature then most but a shit test none the less

  327. Farm Boy

    Probably she is used to silencing critics through the combination of appealing appearance and name-calling. Oddly enough, it doesn’t work here.

  328. Cicero

    Fuzzie I agree that her motives were questionable. Actually it was pretty obvious. What I was referring to was when her views got questioned, that the answers from those started to scare her. Just have a look at how her bravado and arrogance started to subside when her own standards were turned on her. Her “education” failed her and this scared her because feminist are taught to attack not to contemplate cause and effect. And these attack tactics are only useful if the other party participates in the personal attacks. No reciprocation of personal attacks then no known way to argue for them. Then logic steps in…. they see what is going to happen throw a few ad hominems and they cut and run.

    Vera was a bit more savvy and creative. Rebecca was just banal in her approach.

  329. Jay

    As a former egalitarian, I can tell you trying to get those people to debate (honestly and logically) is a hopeless endeavor. I had all the same emotional, knee-jerk reactions to the reality of the differences between the sexes, and realizing that the whole, Let’s-All-Hold-Hands-And-Sing-Kumbaya-Egalitarian-Socialist bullshit was a pipe dream. It seems that anyone who has swallowed the narrative of the Left thinks, “Shut up, you’re wrong!” is an argument.

  330. FuzzieWuzzie

    Cicero, then, you have answered the question that has been rattling around in the back of my head. We handled it as well as could be expected.
    It’s kind of a shame that our opponent relied on her “education” rather than her own abilities. She’s a little too set in her ways.

  331. Farm Boy

    Lefties are taught that not only are their answers logically correct, but morally correct also. Furthermore, they are superior individually for being able to see the light. It is a three-fer. Who would want to give that up?

  332. JDG

    Rebecca all I wanted was a sammich. Is that really so bad?

    Lefties are taught that not only are their answers logically correct, but morally correct also.

    And this without any understanding of how logic works. Then they claim the moral high ground with no higher authority to back it it up. It’s ‘moral’ because they say so. You have to give it to the proponents of this new ‘morality’. No discriminating against anyone… except those who are not of a protected class and those who disagree with the herd.

  333. Pingback: Snow White Gets a Spanking (A Fairy Tale) | Hipster Racist

  334. Jamie

    I am an atheist women (formerly a Baptist) and I am childfree by choice. For me, the want to be a parent simply doesn’t exist. I like my freedom and my alone time. My choice works great for me. It doesn’t affect anyone in a negative manner and it has nothing to do with narcissism.

  335. Bree

    I don’t know why Christians are always so concerned about what women do with their bodies or their lives. Mind your own uteri. Not everyone who chooses not to have kids is some narcissistic child hating cat lady. Did you ever think that it is much better not to have kids, if one knows that she will not be a good mother?

    I love my three nieces and they adore me because I spoil them. I also play with them a lot when I visit. They are beautiful and well behaved girls. However, I am always glad when I can hand them back to their parents.

    I don’t believe the lies about how wonderful motherhood is. My mother was the most stressed out and unhappy parent on the planet. She blamed her unhappiness on her five kids and enjoyed taking out her stress physically. It certainly made an impression on me. My mother also felt as though she had to stay with my adulterous father because of her children. Watching my mother taught me that being a mom is about drudgery, resentment and awful sacrifices.

    I am with my husband because I want to be his wife and not because I feel trapped by children. Our place is quiet and clean. We enjoy a lot of date nights and getaways. My marriage appears much happier than those of my friends who are tied down with children and lazy husbands who do nothing. All they do is complain and look wistful when I talk about my romantic dates with my husband. After a childhood spent being terrified of an abusive mother who treated me like a slave because of my gender, I have no desire to have children of my own.

  336. Taco

    I have no desire to handle poop and pee…ever…that and kids are stupid expensive…I can’t justify the expense.

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