A reader requests advice on marital submission when the wife works full time.

I received a question by email from a married female reader:

My husband & I have a goal of having me quite my full time work as a nurse in the next two years. Do you have any idea how submission works with both the husband & wife working full time? I just don’t see how it is at all possible to fully be submissive & take on the tasks that this entails (biblical description of a submissive wife) & still work full time. I can see myself becoming very resentful, for example, of working a full time demanding job, coming home to cook a good meal for my family & also taking care of our small children and the home all while my husband sits back & watches Fox news. Of course this is just an example because as of right now we share most of the home chores. Not at all our ideal.

I have lots of thoughts for this reader, but my wrist is driving me nuts at present due to a recent cortisone injection to try to clear up some tendonitis, and typing is really painful.  Therefore, I thought I’d pose her question to the group, since I have plenty of married readers, some of whom are in dual-income marriages.  Hopefully the throbbing in my wrist and hand will settle down in the next couple days and I’ll be able to share my thoughts, too.

In the meantime, dear readers, how would you advise this woman and her husband?  What practical tips can you give them to help keep their marital hierarchy functioning properly even though they are both working full time?

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165 thoughts on “A reader requests advice on marital submission when the wife works full time.

  1. javaloco

    While behaviours like dressing pretty and having dinner prepared for when your man comes home are demonstrations of submission, they are not submission.

    The fact that you could see yourself becoming resentful of this while you are still working and he’s sitting on his fattening ass watching the news and drinking “get me another beer, sweetcheeks” is the attitude that needs to be tackled now. If you can get resentful now, there is no submission. It suggests to me an underlying resistance to the idea, because by your own admission, there is already an equitable division of labour. Why on earth do you think that would change?

    First step to submission is just that – submit. Next step is to recognize that your DH has your best interests at heart, already demonstrated, and that may just look a little different going forward.

  2. DrTorch

    I’m not sure that “submission” means doing things just as you describe. The submission part is being a helpmate to his leadership. If working outside of the home is what help looks like for this season, it is what it is.

    Work with him to figure out what the logistics of the home will look like. A good leader won’t ask the impossible of you (Montana and Favre were both successful passing QBs, but their coaches called different plays to match their strengths.) It seems as though you as a family have a goal, it’s his job to lead you to it, so he needs to take on that task. You still follow his lead (resisting the temptation to be the strong, independent woman) and stay intimate with him.

  3. tbc

    Dear reader, it seems you are conflating two separate (though related) issues. The issue of wifely submission is quite separate from the issues related to household management (i.e. who cooks the meals and washes the dishes). This is something that happens a great deal as many people assume that the wife submitting to her husband, as the scripture says, ‘in all things’, must necessarily mean an assumption of what have been termed ‘traditional’ roles. This is simply not the case for a number of reasons.

    Firstly, we must understand that submission of wife to husband (and of husband to Christ) is absolutely not contingent upon either’s participation in the wage earning economy. The Biblical command is transcultural, and thus transcends our current wage-based, employed outside the home, economic model. For much of history, including the time when the Bible was written, men and women both worked within the home, albeit with generally varying responsibilities based on their respective strengths. Thus while the husband might farm grain, the woman might well be active in milling and selling the grain. In the early industrial era, many women earned an income by doing ‘piece-work’, that is, spinning and weaving for payment. None of these arrangements changed the basic dynamic of husband as head of the home.

    Secondly, we must understand (as I’ve alluded to already) that ‘traditional’ roles and the notion of the stay-at-home non-working wife is not really that traditional, but has only been around for a couple hundred years. At best during the height of the industrial economy in the West, it was only ever an ideal attained by upper middle class and wealthy families. Lower middle class and poor women have ALWAYS worked, often outside the home, usually in petty trading, or domestic work. In such cases, you had women whose outside job might be to cook and clean for a wealthy family only to have to come home and then cook and clean for her own. This notwithstanding, the husband was still the head of the home, and submission was still expected.

    Practically speaking, dear reader, you need to separate the notion of submission from anything related to income earning. The husband is not the head because he makes the most money or because he works outside of the home. The headship of the husband is a responsibility and sacred trust placed on him by God. The help of the wife is likewise a responsibility and a sacred trust.

    The term ‘help-meet’ (not help mate as many would have it) provides a clue as to the role you are called upon to play. The woman was a help – meet, that is suitable, for the man. As a wife then your task is to be a suitable helper for your husband, whatever that entails. The goal then is not to be a housewife and be chained to a stove and sink whilst your husband watches TV and relaxes, but is, rather, to be proactively seeking how you might help your husband to be the man of God he is called to be. That might mean cooking and cleaning after you get home from work while he watches TV. It also might mean sitting with him while he blows off steam at the end of the day. Or it could mean any number of things. Your attitude should be that your employment outside of the home is just one dimension of your role as a helper to your husband and is not something that is counter to that role and is certainly not an escape from it.

  4. Ton

    What does submission have to do with working outside the home? All my girls are submissive and all have worked outside the home, many have been nurses

  5. Elspeth

    Well shucks, tbc. You just took the wind right out of my sails. That was an excellent answer. Submission has absolutely nothing to do with whether a wife works outside the home or not.

    The problem (and I see this quite often) is that wives like everyone else have been conditioned to equate making money with power and paying bills with the right to have equal say in decisions. I have been startled by seemingly submissive wives turn into harridans as soon as they had to return to or enter the marketplace of paid work.

    Be very careful who you take advice from. Renew your mind with the Word, and realize that you can be just as submissive as a working wife as you can as a housewife.

    One tip I suggest: Hand your pay over to your husband. All of it, then set the budget as you would if he earned all of it. It is largely symbolic as many wives set the household budget, but it reiterates the fact that you understand the dynamic is exactly the same as if he earned all of the money.

  6. tbc

    Another way of putting it is that your primary relational identity needs to be that of ‘wife’ — not ‘nurse’ or ‘mother’ or ‘traditional stay-at-home mom’. You are a wife, so your employment outside of the home is only in service to that identity and doesn’t replace or supplant it. If you think of yourself as other than wife (aside from your identity as a Christian I presume) then you will naturally grow resentful as you will see yourself as having 2 ‘jobs’ whilst your husband has only 1. (By the way your husband’s main relational identity (apart from being Christian) is husband)

    Being a wife is not a hourly or salaried position. It is a relational identity that has 24-hr responsibilities attached to it, but all of which are contingent responsibilities; that is, they are contingent upon what the husband needs.

    Practical steps:
    -the husband is the head, so ask his permission before spending the household money (including money from your job – especially money from your job)
    - the husband is the head, so ask him what he wants you to be doing in the house
    -the husband is the head, so turn over your check to him. It may even be helpful (if your check is direct deposited as most are) to stop direct deposit for a while just so you can physically sign the check over to him as a sign and reminder of submission
    -the husband is the head, so check with him before committing yourself to any additional or lesser responsibilities at work
    -the husband is the head, so make a decision not to be resentful

  7. sunshinemary Post author

    I agree with everyone’s comments that submission isn’t about work status.

    Let’s try to list some really practical things she can do to demonstrate her willingness to follow his leadership. I like Elspeth’s idea of handing over her pay to him.

    I would also suggest that you ask him if it’s okay before you go places out of the ordinary routine; i.e. “Would you mind if I had lunch with a couple of girlfriends on Friday?” Don’t be annoying about it; you don’t need to ask permission every time you have to go the bathroom, but just sort of demonstrate that you acknowledge his right to direct your days as he sees fit. Most of the time, my husband says, “Sure, no problem, go ahead,” so it’s mostly symbolic, but symbolism can be powerful.

  8. sunshinemary Post author

    the husband is the head, so ask him what he wants you to be doing in the house

    I do this. Before he leaves for work, I will ask him, “Is there anything in particular that you want me to get done today?” If he has any errands or chores that he wants done, I do them.

  9. Mary Ellen (@WorkingHomeKpr)

    In addition to my pay, my husband also completely controls what work related benefit programs I participate in. My 401K, HSA, etc., my husband determines what amounts go into those funds and makes changes as he sees fit. In our home, my husband handles all income and budgeting. He gives me a personal allowance and weekly envelopes for groceries and the childrens’ clothing needs.

    As a wife and mother that currently works outside of the home full-time per my husband’s wishes, managing the cooking and cleaning is fairly easy. With creativity and establishing routines, the homecaring tasks get done and the meals get made. If you’re intent on doing something, then you will make a way to get it done. The hard part is making sure feelings of resentment don’t take root in your heart. You must stay in prayer to keep that from happening.

  10. Amanda

    Submission to one’s husband is a spiritual position, an attitude of the heart. Circumstances such as working outside the home at husband’s request doesn’t change this. Everything tbc has said is correct, and I think as women this is hard for us because we fear that our husband will extend his priviledge for his own benefit at our expense. In fact, I have witnessed men do this, and it has made a deep impression on me as a young wife and mother to see other women respond in submission even with bad treatment from the husband — it shows a deep faith and trust in the Lord to work out the situation and take care of us as women. Indeed, our hope and faith truly is in the Lord, and it is Him we obey when we are obedient to our husbands, for better or worse. Here you have an opportunity to display God’s great power and grace in your situation, by following these suggestions other posters have made and seeking the Lord for ways to be submissive on your own — He will show you if it is your sincere desire.

    Hopefully we can be called as our sister Sarah, who was not frightened by ANY fear!

  11. Just Saying

    “how submission works with both the husband & wife working full time?”

    The two have nothing to do with each other – now I’m not married, but I have a lot of women that I see who in business are medical Dr’s, lawyers, etc, but in their private lives they DO NOT want to have to make decisions and such, they want to be able to concentrate on one thing – making my life easier and more enjoyable. It is that simple – so while at work they may literally have someone’s life in their hands – but at home they don’t want that stress, they want to leave it at work.

    Submission allows them to do that – they know what I like, and will go about trying to surprise me with the little things. So I may find their skin is soft and silky, or they have covered their bed in sheep’s skin for the sensations it provides. I don’t tell them what to do – although they bow to whatever I wish, they are with me on my terms. That is part of submission – they don’t give me grief. I have seen men arguing with their wives – I want to smack them both and tell them to shape up – they act like squabbling children. The women with me are their by their choice – that is the end of their choice – the rest is up to me. They are free to go – we’re not married – so either of us can end it – that is how a marriage is, but it has a lot of extra paperwork and hassle associated with it.

    A woman either chooses to be submissive and enjoys it, or she doesn’t – that is her choice. If she doesn’t, that’s fine – it’s just that she won’t be with me, as I don’t put up with it. No man should…

  12. tbc

    @justsaying – your comment strikes me as a bit off. Biblical submission (which is what are talking of here) does not involve the a woman giving up her own agency. It isn’t a matter of a woman’s choices ending, as you’ve said. A help-meet is not a slave; there is a difference. Wives are not slaves to their husbands. Perhaps what you’re describing works in your particular world, but it isn’t especially Christian.

  13. TempestTcup

    I work outside the home and I still come home and cook dinner a lot of nights. Sometimes we go out; whatever my husband wants to do. We pretty much split up the housework, but most of his is outside work. We each do whatever needs to be done.

    This has nothing to do with submission, though. We will talk about decisions, but he makes the final decision. If he wants to do something, we do it. I have a professional career and it is nice to have my husband make the decisions at home.

    I’m not sure if my definition of submission is the same as everyone else’s, but to me it means that my husband is the most important person in my life, so I put him first. I dress the way he likes, cook the foods he likes and do the things he likes. It makes me happy to make him happy.

  14. Earl

    Sitting around watching the news is not a make time sink. Women think that wise investments, voting initiatives, career choices, and housing decisions come from heaven like mana? Do women think their children should be drafted for war without narry a peep from pops? Do they think that their men will hear directly from God that the economy will be collapsing tomorrow and that they should buy some rations?

  15. Deep Strength

    The three things wives are commanded in the Bible — helpmeet, submission, and respect.

    Submission is about abiding by your husbands decisions. In doing so, you become a helpmeet to him.

    You do so first because you want to be in obedience to God, as God has commanded wives to be a helpmeet and to submit to their husbands. You show God and your husband respect when you submit as a helpmeet. And second, because it will bring unity to your marriage.

    Submission may mean working a job or it may not mean that. It may mean doing the dishes or taking care of the kids or it may not mean that. Do not focus on the task. Rather, focus on your husband and ask him — not think by yourself — to understand what he is thinking with particular decisions.

    One of the important things about being a helpmeet is that you WANT to offer your advice to your husband. It is like the manospherian analogy of captain and first officer. The captain inevitably wants to the opinions of his crew in important matters to settle important decisions. But, after the decisions are made, the crew will abide by his decision and carry it out without questioning.

  16. Deep Strength

    @ earl

    Sitting around watching the news is not a make time sink. Women think that wise investments, voting initiatives, career choices, and housing decisions come from heaven like mana? Do women think their children should be drafted for war without narry a peep from pops? Do they think that their men will hear directly from God that the economy will be collapsing tomorrow and that they should buy some rations?

    Completely true. When it looks like men are doing nothing we often are thinking about important matters and formulating ideas that can help the household significantly in the future.

    On the other hand, if the wife is doing a lot of things and the husband “appears” to be doing nothing then the wife should voice her opinion to her husband that she is being/feeling overwhelmed.

    A good captain will take into account the needs of those under his commands, but he cannot read minds. However, even if he is a captain that is not a Christian and is not considerate of her, the Bible still tells the wife to submit such that he may potentially be saved (1 Cor 7, 1 Peter 3).

    The wrong course of action for the wife is to fester in resentment because “he’s not doing anything” and “why do I have to do all of the work” etc. If you’re feeling overwhelmed then you need to tell him.

  17. Earl

    My wife works full time, perhaps more hours than me. She is a “stay at home mom” or a “teacher” depending on who you ask. We are home schoolers. She has a lot on her plate. We are apart most of the day, all week long. Yet she is a submissive wife. One example is that she submits to my decisions in financing and housing. It is hard for her to do this since she comes from a family of realtors and thinks it is a “fun time” to go to an open house while on vacation in far away places. Renting has been difficult for her, and being pregnant has made our current housing situation even more tense because I want to move ASAP. She submits by not being a demanding grating nag and not being full of anxiety about these things. Well- she tries to submit. She knows she should. I give her lots of leeway because we always talk, confess, and repent. And she’s very pregnant right now. She knows there is a way to approach me with her concerns without being sinful, and that I will listen to her if she is rational.

  18. Earl

    @Deep Strength

    A good man is also being useful even when he is “sitting around doing nothing.” Think of the male lion. They are very handy when it comes time to tango with the hyenas. Of course, they do not let themselves become fat slobs who only watch American Idol, but even the modern fat slob is not totally useless in a home security situation. A dad/man is one of those things that his dependents often don’t realize they need until he is gone. Even the man himself doesn’t realize how he is geared to provide and protect when his dependents become ungrateful. My step-father died earlier this year and my sister had to change a lot about her life because of it. She didn’t get a long with him at all and gave him a hard time at every turn. Even I was ungrateful for his “beta male provisions” until the year he died. It is unfortunate that I only realized it all when I got up to speak at his memorial. Alas, there is no reasoning with an 8 year old once you decide to throw his dad away and replace him with some strange beta.

  19. Mychael

    Hi everyone. I am the person who asked the question. I appreciate these comments. I think maybe something got mixed up in the question. I didn’t mean to suggest that submission and working outside the house are mutually exclusive. I totally get why it looks like that–especially in light of the “sitting around watching Fox News.” The truth is, my husband has given no indication that our relationship, if I submit more will be devolve into that. Keep the concrete suggestions coming with that in mind.”

  20. Joseph of Jackson

    Here’s a test of your actual submission. I want you to tell me how you have your finances set up currently.

    If you use the words “my money” or “our money”, then you need to go figure out why saying “his money” (this would include the money you make by working) bothers you so much and deal with that.

  21. deti

    Similarly to what Joseph said above:

    Reader, when referring to your children, do you say “MY children”?

    Why not “OUR children” or “HIS children”?

    Or are they only “HIS” children when they misbehave?

  22. tz2026

    Your husband must decide what he wants. If you are to work full time, you won’t be able to function as a full time housewife. That might mean less elegant meals and the clutter not being picked up.

    Your husband can order you to hop around on one foot while carrying a baby grand piano on your shoulders, but you won’t be capable of doing that either. Your husband can order you to “win the lottery” – wouldn’t that fix things?

    It is also not clear if you already have small children. If you do, they need their mom, not day-care – even if it is with a relative. I don’t know if you can somehow create a “work at home” job consulting or doing something online, but short of that if your husband is ordering you to provide income instead, he is the one violating the ideal.

    But I can only give the best advice I know. Pray something like the following: ‘Lord, we are trying to follow your commandments but we don’t know how, we can’t seem to in the current situation. We will do the right thing and trust you to fight the battle and arrange our lives to make obedience possible. We can’t on our own.”

  23. Elle

    Some of the comments have made me more confused about submission instead of less. What does feeling resentment have to do with submission? If a person thinks that they are being treated unfairly wouldn’t they resent that? Wouldn’t submission be in doing what was asked anyway?

    And the “his money thing”. Doesn’t a married couple become one? Wouldn’t “our money” be correct no matter who earned it. Or does submission mean that you pretend not to own or have earned anything even if you do?

  24. DrTorch

    “The term ‘help-meet’ (not help mate as many would have it)”

    Just curious as to what you think the difference is.

  25. Maeve

    I have to ask (no snark or sarcasm intended), what is so wrong with “we”, “our”, “us” when referring to marriage and the things related to marriage. A marriage involves two (both) people or there isn’t actually a marriage. Does it not follow that children are “our” children and money is “our money”? It sort of implies that one person is somehow more married than the other. I do not understand the reasoning. I do not understand why one would wish to introduce any sort of divisive language into marriage. It seems to negate the idea that a married couple is, indeed a “couple”.

  26. Frank

    I do not understand why one would wish to introduce any sort of divisive language into marriage.

    Because otherwise women lose their individuality which reflects what strong, independent and special snowflakes they are. Once you cave in and become part of the patriarchy, you lose who you are as a person. At least that’s what the beta-male special edition of Feminist Quarterly tells me anyway.

  27. Joseph of Jackson

    @Maeve

    Genesis3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

    Exodus 20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.

    Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

    You want to understand the reasoning? We earn money ourselves, but when we give it to God as the church, does it suddenly become “our money”. Are they actually “your children” or God’s? In the example laid out to us by Paul in Ephesians, the husband is to be to the wife as Christ is to the church and vice versa. Anything else is rebellion. We don’t share money with God, it is his by right, just as your money is your husbands by right. Those children belong to your husband by right. According to the 10 commandments themselves, you belong to your husband the same way a donkey would.

    “It sort of implies that one person is somehow more married than the other. ”

    Indeed, being a husband is like being a master. Ever heard of animal husbandry?

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/husbandry

    Go check out definition 2.

    It’s not an equal relationship. That man is responsible for your safety and provisioning, your spiritual growth, maturity in faith, physical health (as far as it can be maintained), and emotional stability. He is responsible for cultivating you in much the same way a farmer is responsible for cultivating a crop. He must provide a safe environment, tend you, feed you, correct mistakes, and keep evil things that would consume you away. It’s not an equal relationship at all. Your job is to have children, do what he tells you, and support him with any gifts or talents you have. That is unless you can find something in scripture that I missed?

  28. Frank

    Since husband and wife become one flesh, whatever possessions there are is owned by one cohesive unit, rather than 2 distinctive people. That’s why I have no qualms with saying it’s our money even if I were the sole breadwinner. Our house, our children, our life (singular).

    But… the iPhone is mine. MINE. DO YOU HEAR ME?? MINE!!!!!!!!

  29. DrTorch

    ~“Just curious as to what you think the difference is.”

    One implies equality.~

    I don’t see it. In fact, I don’t even know which of the two you’re referring to.

    You’re inferring that.

    Looking at the etymology, there is no marked difference, as helpmate was likely derived from help-meet (a poetically constructed term, not a translation). Help-meet is somewhat archaic in today’s vernacular, whereas helpmate is not.

    If you like the former term better, that’s fine. But let’s not pretend there’s a real distinction.

  30. Frank

    According to the 10 commandments themselves, you belong to your husband the same way a donkey would.

    We comparing women to asses now?

  31. Frank

    According to the 10 commandments themselves, you belong to your husband the same way a donkey would.

    Well, that certainly puts the phrase “I own that ass!!” in a whole new light.

  32. Joseph of Jackson

    “Help-meet is somewhat archaic in today’s vernacular, whereas helpmate is not.”

    And today, anything that doesn’t imply equality is archaic. It’s politics man, vocabulary is fluid based on public perception.

  33. deti

    I’ve long said the biggest problem in marriages today is there are many many women married to men they aren’t attracted to; and it’s too easy for those women to get out of their marriages for unhaaaaappiness.

    The second biggest problem is many women’s view of marriage, a woman’s role in a Christian marriage; and her relationship to her husband in a Christian marriage.

    As JoJ pointed up, her role is to be a help-meet. She is supposed to HELP him MEET his obligations, his duties, his mission. She’s not equal to him. He’s the head, she’s the subordinate. Her role is to take care of his house, have his children, support him with her gifts and talents, and do what her husband tells her to do.

    His role is to husband her: provide for her immediate physical needs, safety, security, physical and emotional condition; moral and spiritual development.

    I Cor. 7 (wife’s body belongs to husband; husband’s body belongs to wife) doesn’t support an “equal” relationship between the two. What Paul is talking about there and in Ephesians, I suggest, is a recognition of the strong bonding occurring between sex partners whether married or not. It is also concerned with keeping people out of sexual immorality and preventing hostilities and resentments among people living in close proximity to each other.

  34. Frank

    I thought the point of feminism was to make women as close to beasts of burden as could physically and emotionally be tolerable?

    Interesting point, though being a dog person, I’d take a golden sabled bitch any day of the week over a nice looking ass.

  35. tbc

    Looking at the etymology, there is no marked difference, as helpmate was likely derived from help-meet (a poetically constructed term, not a translation). Help-meet is somewhat archaic in today’s vernacular, whereas helpmate is not.

    If you like the former term better, that’s fine. But let’s not pretend there’s a real distinction

    I’m not a linguist, but the terms are not the same term at all. To say that the woman was a help meet for the man using KJV language is different than saying a helpmate. The word ‘meet’ in KJV English means ‘suitable’ or ‘appropriate’. Example: “It is not meet that I should take the children’s bread and cast it to the dogs.” (Matthew 15.26) You meet the same usage in the following verse in Genesis where it says that God made all the animals and brought them before Adam but a help meet for him was not found. Put differently, the cow is not a helper suitable to man; not a help-meet for him. The woman is. She is a suitable companion for the man. The ESV translate the term ‘a helper fit’ for him.

    The term mate is however related etymologically as both terms derive their origins from the Germanic language family terms related to meeting together. It’s meaning however is closer to that of companion.

    So a helpmate, linguistically is a helpful companion. A helpmeet (which is the biblical language) is a suitable or appropriate help.

    [ssm: Excellent explanation, thank you.]

  36. Guest

    You gentleman may want more money (via your wife’s earnings). However, you cannot use Scripture to back you up. The Bible clearly indicates a wife’s role is in the home.

  37. Guest

    “He must provide a safe environment, tend you, feed you, correct mistakes, and keep evil things that would consume you away. ”

    Sounds like the man isn’t doing much at all, unless a bad guy comes to your door and starts attacking. Barring that, the husband isn’t doing much. Evil things that would consume you? Yep, happens every day.

  38. tbc

    In any event, another practical way the working gal can demonstrate submission is to make time for good lovin’, that is, have regular, enthusiastic sex with him. Yes, I know you’re tired but sex is good for both of you.

  39. Elspeth

    tbc is right. Help “meet” is not about helping him “meet” his obligations, LOL. Certainly that’s part of being a “suitable” helper, as “suitable” is the correct translation of the word. Your husband determines how you go about helping him fulfill his mission or meet his obligations. Working shouldn’t make it any harder to be submissive as submission is not about being a housewife.

    One of the most ball busting wives I’ve ever met was housewife who cooked, cleaned, and kept house. Of course, she did it for to her own specifications and as a statement of pride in “her house”, but she did a good job; for herself.

  40. DrTorch

    Sorry tbc, I’m no liguist either but my research doesn’t support your claims. Help meet is not a Biblical term, it’s a poetic one, “The poet John Dryden’s 1673 use of the phrase “help-meet for man,” with a hyphen between help and meet, was one step on the way toward the establishment of the phrase “help meet” as an independent word.

    And it goes on, ” Despite such usages, helpmeet was not usually thought of as a word in its own right until the 19th century. Nonetheless, the phrase “help meet” probably played a role in the creation of helpmate, from help and mate, first recorded in 1715. ”

    Again, creating pointless (and incorrect) distinctions doesn’t help anyone. In fact, we just saw how the archaic term “help-meet” was misinterpreted.

    And deti- I think the woman is equal to him (in some important metrics) but not equivalent. There is an important difference between those two words.

  41. Elspeth

    No, Dr. Torch. In the original KJV Bible (which I’m pretty sure was written before 1673) the text reads as follows:

    And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

    That’s Genesis 2:18.

  42. Morvena

    “Submission is not about being a housewife” – I like that. I was under the impression submission is about respecting your husband by following his wishes, whether it’s to work within the home, outside of it, or both. I understand that many of the men who comment here either have or would want their wife to stay at home for various reasons, but are the men that want their wives to have a job outside the home “doing it wrong”, so to speak?

  43. tbc

    Dr Torch, I do hope you realise that Dryden’s usage of the term came from the 1611 Authorized Version of scripture, popularly known as the King James Version. It is a biblical term as you would easily find by looking in the KJV Genesis chp 2. ‘I will make a help meet for him’. It may later have taken on poetic usage, but the Hebrew from which it is derived (ezer kenegdo) simply means a help suitable.

  44. DrTorch

    Elspeth- I believe the distinction is that it’s two words, not one.

    My apologies for such frequent posts.

    [ssm: No need to apologize; you are welcome here.]

  45. Joseph of Jackson

    “Sounds like the man isn’t doing much at all, unless a bad guy comes to your door and starts attacking. Barring that, the husband isn’t doing much. Evil things that would consume you? Yep, happens every day.”

    I’m assuming you’re one of the willingly ignorant that 2 Peter 3:5 speaks of.

  46. sunshinemary Post author

    In general, a wife working full time outside the home has the potential to be problematic.

    1.He can expect her to switch from boss to submissive wife when she walks through the door, but in reality that’s not easy to do. I used to teach all day, and one day my husband snapped at me, “Stop talking to me like I’m one of your students!” I had not realized how I was talking down to him and sort of bossing him about.

    2. Do you really want your wife submitting to some other guy all day? Bosses are notorious people for women to cheat with. Obviously that doesn’t excuse cheating – even if she is working full time, she needs to control herself – but why even chance the temptation unless you absolutely have to?

    I work part-time (only about 10-15 hours per week) and I’m fortunate this way – my boss and ALL my co-workers happen to be female.

    3. Sometimes, when there are rough spots in the marriage, it’s no bad thing for her to be financially dependent on him. Yes, I know that she shouldn’t file for divorce in any case, but it makes it much easier for her to choose the right thing if she’s already dependent on him.

  47. Bike Bubba

    If I were speaking to the husband about this, I would tend to note two things. First of all, after 40% taxes, 10% tithe, daycare, vehicle, food, and work attire expenses, working outside the home does not consistently get more income for the family, especially when the kids are young. Second, there is a very real difference in what can be accomplished with ~112 hours of homemaking and mothering in a week (168 hours – 56 hours of sleep) and what can be accomplished in about 62 hours per week (168 hours – sleep – 40 hours of work – 5 hours of commuting – 5 hours at lunch, etc..).

    Maybe the submissive way of going about this is to do the math and present what extra income actually would be likely (marginal tax rates, etc..) and where the time is going during a typical day. Tell him “I can do this, but here’s what we’d actually gain, and this is what would have to go.” Except for those on the lower end of the income spectrum, most will find they’re not getting much out of the deal.

  48. Joseph of Jackson

    @tbc

    “The term ‘help meet’ is found in the Bible even earlier than the 1611 King James.”

    I am aware of that. However, some earlier translations while pull partially from the textus receptus were not pulled in their entirety. This is a definitive date in that all source materials for the text were known.

  49. Scott

    “If I were speaking to the husband about this, I would tend to note two things. First of all, after 40% taxes, 10% tithe, daycare, vehicle, food, and work attire expenses, working outside the home does not consistently get more income for the family, especially when the kids are young. Second, there is a very real difference in what can be accomplished with ~112 hours of homemaking and mothering in a week (168 hours – 56 hours of sleep) and what can be accomplished in about 62 hours per week (168 hours – sleep – 40 hours of work – 5 hours of commuting – 5 hours at lunch, etc..). ”

    No problem, I’m the husband.

    Believe me, Ive done the math. We are close to this–very close. In order to maintain the lifestyle that my wife and kids are accustomed to, and the rate of savings–I am basically one more raise away. Thanks everyone, for being gentle (but truth-telling) with her. She is a little intimidated by the idea of writing on here, but her question is real. Especially since netiher of is anonymously posting–we are the couple who run the courtshippledge website. She also thought others might benefit.

  50. sunshinemary Post author

    That’s a good point Mr. Bubba.

    In my case, we decided that I would work very part time as a sort of insurance policy, not because I earn much money nor because we need that money overly much. I am a speech language pathologist, which requires certification through a national organization plus a state license. By working a few hours a week, I keep all my certs and licenses up to date, plus keep a little work history going. That way, heaven forbid, if my husband should suddenly be unable to provide, I could step into that role and keep a roof over our head and food on the table.

    And although I really enjoy my work, I don’t do it for the ego boost of having a career. I see it as something I do to help my family. My work situation is entirely part of my submission to my husband; he has told me to quit jobs before, and I have complied with that. He gives me freedom to set my own schedule, but if my schedule causes problems, he tells me to change it immediately, and I do that. If he asked me to work more or less, I would do that, too.

  51. Morvena

    @SSM – I guess some of it would depend on the wife’s personality and the type of job and a lot of other external factors. If she was in a position of leadership at work, I could see #1 being a problem, definitely. Cheating with a boss or other coworkers is a valid concern as well. I personally have no desire to be a leader at work and my boss and most of my coworkers are women, but a more driven woman with lots of male coworkers or a male boss could very well fare badly. On the other hand, any woman could hit an animal on her drive home and be stuck on the side of the road alone for awhile (potentially dangerous), which is what happened to me last night.

    [ssm: Oh no! Sorry to hear that happened to you. Is your car okay?]

  52. Joseph of Jackson

    @scott

    You’ll notice that mary is a submissive wife. When her husband tells her to do something, she does her best to make that happen. Your wife seems like she wants to be submissive, but has a hang up in that a paycheck and the hours involved with that somehow give her more equal status. This is the source of the resentment. You address this and you actually fix the problem.

  53. Scott

    JOJ–to be fair, I think she tried to clarify that part in a comment upthread that was in moderation for a long time. You may not have seen it.

  54. Scott

    SO, a couple of things. Mychael may or may not be back to comment. She is like a scared little bunny. Without getting way into the details of our marriage (although we may do a little of that over at our site as we get more comfortable with the idea)–here are the “concrete” things she has tried so far. I think they are a great start, and it is the kind of thing she is asking for more of:

    1. I started buying dresses and skirts for her, and not really making it an option that I want to see them more–even for mundane things like grocery shopping. She seems to like that.
    2. She has been explaining to her friends that “Scott decided (or told me to) that I am quitting my job next year.” This has begun to help her change her view on who actually made the decision.
    3. I have told her the next time we go out, I will order for her.
    4. And some others.

    The housekeeping/housewife stuff while working full time I think is something she is trying to get her mind around, based on some faulty assumptions about the blurred lines (that many have already discussed) between “submission” and “sweetness” type activities. My lunch is made for me every day now, with a little note in each one. I get an iced drink placed in front of me every night when I get home, and I love all of that–I absolutely love it. These are marked changes that have occurred in the last month or so. I hope that helps as folks continue to comment.

  55. Elspeth

    The housekeeping/housewife stuff while working full time I think is something she is trying to get her mind around, based on some faulty assumptions about the blurred lines (that many have already discussed) between “submission” and “sweetness” type activities. My lunch is made for me every day now, with a little note in each one. I get an iced drink placed in front of me every night when I get home, and I love all of that–I absolutely love it. These are marked changes that have occurred in the last month or so. I hope that helps as folks continue to comment.

    One of the women who helped me most as I was a beginning homemaker was a woman who worked full time and ran her house (she and her husband had 6 children) like a well-oiled machine. Like working homekeeper mentioned, she had a routine and schedule that she stuck to.

    But when her husband had time off or worked fewer hours, he helped considerably precisely because she worked at his request. Her submission to him in that area compelled him to help her bear the load in the other areas and as the children grew older they began to shoulder a lot of the daily responsibilities. He didn’t have to do that, but he did.

    I on the other hand, handle all the household responsibilities and/or delegate them to my children because I am at home full time, at my husband’s command.

    The biggest thing to remember is that she needs to submit to your authority, whatever that looks like in your house. In my house it means my man is waited on hand and foot, but I enjoy it most of the time.

  56. Joseph of Jackson

    @Scott

    You should definitely be doing a regular bible study together at some point with you as the leader. She needs it reinforced that her pastor isn’t her spiritual leader, but you are. Also, You should lead the two of you in prayer every night before bed. It’s important that she hear your concerns and how you think about things while you are being honest before God. We as men tend to shelter women from the truth. You can’t hide things from God and she needs to hear it. It will help her to naturally find ways to aid you as you make your way forward.

    One of the most difficult things for a person to control is their speech. You may want to listen to how she talks and determine if there are times when she refers to things in a manner that sets her at an equal level as you. Example: My girlfriend used to say “What are you doing?”. I have corrected this and she now asks “Would you mind if I asked what you are doing?”. This may sound absurd to anyone who hasn’t experienced it, but changing a woman’s speech changes her mind. She can’t think the same because she can’t talk the same.

  57. Maeve

    @ Dr. Torch – I found your posts regarding the phrases helpmate vs. helpmeet very interesting. My parent’s Bible (my preferred) states “helper” in Genesis; the one my daughter received for her confirmation uses the term “partner”. I find it all fascinating.

  58. Farm Boy

    while my husband sits back & watches Fox news.

    A husband can bring home lots of bacon and have the house in perfect order, and still a women will resent his time not being applied to the household.

    In this case, women are being like hoarders, who never have enough stuff, and need more for the unforeseen problem in the future.

    Not a pretty sight, either with hoarders or wives.

  59. sunshinemary Post author

    @ Joseph

    That is such good advice; thank you for that.

    I was thinking something similar but from the woman’s point of view. Sometimes what submission looks like for a woman is the conscious choice to control her tongue, to purpose that her mouth will not cause her to sin.

    I am by no means perfect in this area, but I have finally learned to bite back the first, snappish words that form on my tongue and to purposefully reformulate my comment in a pleasant, non-confrontational way.

    In fact, this speech reformulation doesn’t even have to happen solely when the wife is communicating something to her husband about him or their relationship. I was complaining to my husband yesterday evening about something that had happened at my job when I realized that my tone sounded harsh and accusatory. It wasn’t directed at him, but because he was the only person present to receive it, he was unconsciously responding to my harsh tone.

  60. tbc

    another critical piece of submission is the company you keep. If the wife keeps company with a brood of harridans, it will be extremely difficult for her to maintain a submissive spirit towards her husband. If those harridans are at her workplace, then it is all the more difficult.

  61. Elspeth

    If the wife keeps company with a brood of harridans, it will be extremely difficult for her to maintain a submissive spirit towards her husband.

    This is absolutely 100% true. It will mean a very, very small number of friends ( I have 2 IRL and we rarely see each other because we’re busy taking care of our families). But the “sacrifice” of fewer friends is very much worth it.

  62. Ton

    I earn $850 a day waiting around to keep people safe from evil things. Doing that free of charge in exchange of cooking, cleaning and fucking sounds like a pretty fair deal to me

  63. Morvena

    @SSM – Thank you! I’m okay, but sadly one small dog can do a lot of damage to a car. It was definitely a case of me being very thankful for helpful, knowledgeable men because I know very little about cars aside from being able to check the oil and keeping the tires aired up. Between my dad (husband was stuck at work) and a local deputy that lived on the side road I pulled over on, I made it home and my car was taken where it needed to go.

    Anyhooo, my roundabout point is that commuting to a job can be dangerous as well, especially the farther you have to travel. I make sure to always have my phone with me and a few other things in case I’m stuck waiting by myself, but it’s still an unnerving situation to be in. I could also understand a husband having a wife quit a job with a long commute out of concern for her safety.

  64. Farm Boy

    Sometimes what submission looks like for a woman is the conscious choice to control her tongue

    You act like that was totally awesomely hard.

    Guys learn that early on, as they are never considered to be special. When they enter the job market, it gets reinforced. Never in their life, does the normal guy get to say what he thinks. Bad boys with little to lose; that is a different matter.

    Girls are treated as princesses, then they become one. They are fawned over from 0 to 32; and do no wrong, including what comes out of their mouth.

    So in the end, I suppose that it is difficult for women.

  65. Farm Boy

    If those harridans are at her workplace, then it is all the more difficult.

    Ask Jenny about that.

  66. Farm Boy

    I dunno why a women would not want to submit to an adaquate fella.

    It seems like a good deal to me.

    What’s the problem?

  67. sunshinemary Post author

    You act like that was totally awesomely hard.

    It’s not an act. :)

    No, but really, it is hard for a woman to come to the realization that she needs to do that precisely because nobody has ever taught her to.

  68. Bike Bubba

    Scott, fun to see you taking part here.

    One other thought about “what does it submission look like in a two earner household?” is that it can look an awful lot like Proverbs 31. She wasn’t selling things in the market and considering fields to buy for her man from within her home, no?

    I can definitely see the thought about it being hard for a woman to need to submit to a man other than her husband, though, and would point out that Solomon’s dream wife (?) was not needing to submit to anyone else in that passage. But that said, it’s not that foreign to the Scriptures to consider a woman working outside the home, and I for one am glad for many of them, starting with the nurses that gave me a shot of painkiller when I went in with a bum gallbladder…… :^)

  69. Farm Boy

    it is hard for a woman to come to the realization that she needs to do that precisely because nobody has ever taught her to

    Feral

  70. Amanda

    Joseph of Jackson
    It’s funny you should say that about how a wife should speak to her husband. My husband is rather introverted and a gamer, and I have learned over the years it is best to approach him by asking if I can ask a question, talk, etc. out of respect for what he is doing at that moment, rather than running in and just blabbing away. Sometimes I say nothing at all and wait for him to finish what he is doing and then address me when he is ready. I feel a little like Queen Esther waiting in the court for that golden scepter lol!

  71. sunshinemary Post author

    OT
    Here’s a bit of feminist drivel to end your day on a laugh (h/t Laura Wood):

    Explaining why, next time, I won’t breastfeed

    This woman is apparently a gender studies professor. She breastfed their son but if they have more children, she won’t nurse them because it caused her son to bond to her and now as a toddler, he apparently seeks her out when he wants to be nurtured more often than he seeks out his father:

    The burdens of breastfeeding are real and considerable including the restraints to women’s spatial mobility and time. But the other part no one every talks about is that breastfeeding also consolidates pre-existing biological tendencies that privilege the breastfeeding parent.

    Breastfeeding is a burden, but it’s also a power trip. Breastfeeding sets up the breastfeeder as the expert, the authority and the primary parent in the life of the breastfed baby.

    …Breastfeeding creates an imbalance in the labor of parenting. Babies attach to the face they see, the body they rest on, the hands that touch them, and I was and had to be that face/body/hand much more often than my husband did because I breast fed.

    …If we really want to address and redress the ongoing inequalities around the work of making life — the work of raising the next generation — then we have to look at breastfeeding. It’s one thing our bodies do that reinforces the social differences between men and women, moms and dads, and boys and girls.

    Usually I don’t like insulting comments, but this comment by one of the article’s readers made me laugh out loud:

    Please, for the sake of any intelligence leaving that college, please stop teaching . Please you pompous idiotic ass.

  72. Morvena

    I like my coworkers and we all get along pretty well, but I ignore/have ignored 90% of their advice on anything to do with marriage, sex, dating, etc.

    I think controlling one’s words and being able to do it consistently is a big part of the battle; even on websites such as Proverbs 31 I’ve seen devotions written by women concerning the topic of limiting harsh words, tone, and thoughts. If anyone here has read Little Women (great book BTW), they’ll remember that just about all of the sisters had to learn that one the hard way, especially Jo – the most temperamental and headstrong of the four.

  73. Farm Boy

    Please, for the sake of any intelligence leaving that college, please stop teaching

    And to think, people pay good money to hear her drivel.

    Do not most women like being mothers?

    Perhaps that sort of two-way bonding is a threat to the awesomeness of feminism.

    She sure as heck should breast feed any future baby, as it appreciably raises their IQ. And with such a dum-scheisse as a mother, they will need all the help they can get.

  74. FuzzieWuzzie

    Farm Boy, you are on a roll! After reading the “feminist drivel”. It is now safe to conclude that they are in rebellion against nature.
    Don’t they know that it’s not nice to mess with Mother Nature?

  75. jamesd127

    On this issue, I can speak with authority, since I married young and was the boss of the family. When my wife worked outside the house, she also continued to do the woman’s work (which was a lot) and I did the man’s work, which was considerably less. Sometimes she got impatient with my failure to do the man’s work, and would do that as well, which would guilt me into shaping up and doing it. I don’t recall her ever complaining about this allocation of responsibilities.

    Once I tried to hold a democratic family council, and democratically allocate who would do what work. They all looked at me as if I had been replaced by a pod person from Mars, and waited for me to do my job of allocating the chores and organizing the family.

  76. Ton

    Chicks have a hard time controlling what they say because they don’t get punched in the mouth for flapping their gums when they are little

  77. Elle

    @jamesd127 – if I had to work outside the home, do all of the work inside the home and do the man chores as well then I’d be wondering what I needed a husband for! At that point he’s all burden and no benefits. Marriage should be mutually beneficial.

    Why do you think your wife was ok with that arrangement?

  78. jack

    Submission:

    I have to submit to leadership at my job. My supervisors respect me very much. They are not tyrants. They don’t ask me to do anything they would not do.

    But when it comes to answering to upper management and our customers, the supervisors are the ones who will ultimately answer for job performance. In respect of this point, I submit to their authority. I do not resent this either. Because my supervisors are far more answerable for the performance of our team than I will be.

    Submission is about accepting a subordinate role in the operation of the business. My supervisors are always willing to listen to my input, and often make changes based on my input. However, if they decide not to use my input, I let it go.

  79. Mychael

    Good Evening,
    Thank you sincerely to everyone for the comments & advice. I so appreciate everyone’s time.

    Admittedly, I have a hard time following blog formats. It is the same reason that I rarely participated in study groups in nursing school. With my husbands help I’ve been reading & taking everything in.

    It is true that we (Scott & I) are in the midst of a bit of a spiritual awakening in our marriage. My part in this is learning what biblical submission looks like.

    I know many of you have also visited our website, http://www.courtshippledge.com, & I appreciate your support both there & here.

    God Bless.

  80. FuzzieWuzzie

    Mychael and Scott, for my two cents worth, it looks like you two have a strong relationship that should only deepen over time. All I can say is “Congratuations” and wish you well.

  81. Lisa in Vermont

    Hi Mychael,

    Welcome. I don’t think that working full time should impede your ability to follow the model of Biblical submission. During my marriage, I’ve worked full time, part time and been a SAHM and I don’t think it was ever a factor in how I treated my husband.

    It seems like you’re worried about being overwhelmed. That’s normal, especially with a demanding job and young children. While I understand your desire to cook great meals and be a good housekeeper, I don’t think it’s wrong to ask your husband to help with traditionally female chores (cooking and cleaning) if you are helping with the traditional male role of earning an income.

    Of course, once you stop working it’s reasonable for him to expect you to take over most of the cooking and cleaning though I don’t see a problem with a husband helping out when his wife is sick or emotionally overwhelmed or if both kids have the stomach bug at the same time, etc.

    The best blog I’ve found during my journey toward becoming a more submissive wife has been http://www.peacefulwife.com. The author, April, was very controlling for the first 15 years of her marriage until five years ago when she made a conscious decision to become a more submissive, godly wife. It’s greatly impacted her marriage and she feels her calling is to help other women do the same.

    She has several posts about working women. She’s a pharmacist and was the primary breadwinner at one point and now works very part time like SSM. She backs up everything she writes with scripture and answers personal emails as well.

    Her husband has a companion blog called http://www.respectedhusband.com which offers a great perspective on how our respect or lack thereof impacts our husbands and our marriages.

    I’d also recommend the book Love and Respect by Emerson Eggerich and the book The Surrendered Wife by Laura Doyle. The latter is not written from a Christian perspective, but gives excellent practical advice on how to be submissive without turning into a doormat.

  82. Farm Boy

    Chicks have a hard time controlling what they say because they don’t get punched in the mouth for flapping their gums when they are little

    Pretty much what I said, but less politically correct. We all love that about you, Ton.

    At least I do.

  83. Lisa in Vermont

    Hi Mychael,

    You might want to discuss with your husband whether you could work a few per diem nursing shifts a month once you quit your full time job. A few of my friends who are nurses with small children do this to keep their licenses current and to use their skills while bringing in a little extra income.

    If you work an overnight or weekend shift when your husband could care for the children, you wouldn’t have to worry about daycare. My neighbor has done this successfully since her high-school aged children were babies. She plans to return full time when the youngest goes off to college.

  84. jack

    Too many people confuse submission with subservience.

    Submission has nothing to do with cooking, cleaning, chores, toothpaste caps, socks on the floor or toilet seat pre/post positioning.

    Submission is about cooperation, trust, and respect.

  85. docillusion

    Working wife. Yikes.

    As has been mentioned, you can be submissive while working. Everyone’s advice has been pretty good.

    All I could offer aside from that is stop working as soon as possible and be as feminine and nurturing as possible. My woman puts on a dress, makeup and heels just to pick me up from work. Oh yeah, she also drives me everywhere.

    I come home, feed animals, water the garden and then go to my office, put my feet up on my desk and read a book while drinking a Manhattan, until my meal is ready.

    Her working would hurt my quality of life, no matter how much money she made. And we don’t need any more money. Every woman I’ve dated who has worked has been a bit of a b!tch and usually ended up cheating with a co worker. If she didn’t cheat, she still had male friends at work who did inappropriate things like call her phone at ten o’clock at night, waking me up when I had to be at work at 4am.

    And in my experience, women who work spend a lot of money. They always buy something for lunch or go out with their friends, always buy new clothes for work, etc. I bring a can of tomato juice for lunch and don’t spend a dime while working. Women just aren’t good at it, in my experience. They are natural consumers and more easily led astray than men.

    If your woman is working, and there are any men at the job, I guarantee you at least one of them wants to sleep with your wife. All it takes is you two getting into an argument or something and him sliding in at the right moment. It’s a horrible idea.

  86. E Bunker

    “All it takes is you two getting into an argument or something and him sliding in at the right moment. ”

    Someone lacks confidence in their relationship.

  87. Jenny

    Submission is almost seen as a dirty work and tends to be used interchangeably with subservience when someone is trying to make a point. It is almost seen as unnatural when really it must be the most natural form for a relationship to take with the man being the provider and leader and the woman being the nurturer and helper.

    I have been watching a documentary called The Monstrous Regiment of Women which is interesting – lots of good topics on there. The description says “Feminists tell women not to submit to a husband, to avoid having children, and that they should listen to their inner voice and chase a career to find true fulfilment.”

  88. jack

    Of course, a man should see a woman’s willingness to submit to him as the greatest compliment she could ever pay him, from a respect standpoint.

    When a woman gives herself physically to a man, that is the other half of this ultimate honor.
    And men should reverence this.

  89. Hannah

    Hi infowarrior1…in a previous post you asked everyone a question from 1st Corinthians in reference to man being the image and glory of God and women being the glory of man.

    I intended to respond to you but got distracted sorry. I am of the belief that God established a heirarchy in creation. This is how I think it looks:

    Father
    Son
    Spirit
    Arch-angels
    Kings
    Man – Husband
    Woman – Wife
    Children
    Animals

    ‘And the Lord God said, “It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.”
    …’And Adam said:
    “This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man.”
    Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.
    Genesis 2 v 18- 24

    ‘He who finds a wife finds a good thing, And obtains favour from the Lord.’
    Proverbs 18:22

    Within this God-ordained order, I find my freedom. I know who I am in Christ, I know who I am called to be on this earth – that I was created to fill a need… that I am a ‘good thing’ for my husband within my role as his helper. I am filled with joy as I live within my created nature that God intended. My husband was given the sphere of authority and I aim to please him and Him by respecting my husband’s authority.

    ‘For man is not from woman, but woman from man. Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man.’
    1 Corinthians 11 v 8-9

    We women ARE inferior! But so what?!
    Do I know the mind of God that I should question his ways? What I do know, is that Eve was deceived, and yet God holds Adam accountable as he was appointed leader. I don’t want to cause my husband to sin before God by influencing him negatively through my attitude.

    “All this talk about equality. The only thing people really have in common is that they are all going to die.” Bob Dylan

  90. Cail Corishev

    Feral

    Farm Boy,

    I’m just curious: If a friend of yours were really fat, say 400 pounds, and he got on a healthy diet and joined your gym, and stuck to it faithfully — maybe he’d miss a day here and there, but he showed up as regularly as anyone — and lost 100 pounds, so he still had another 100 to lose, but was working on it consistently…

    …do you suppose it would be helpful to yell, “Hey, Fatass,” at him every time he walked in the gym?

  91. Sir_chancealot

    Does no one read, and comprehend, the bible anymore?

    God SPECIFICALLY says that he didn’t want Kings for his people. It was only after they gave him a bunch of crap that he sent them one. Kings are NOT on the hierarchical list of authority. On the other hand, it does specifically state the following list of authority: Jesus-Husband-Wife. Was “King” printed in microscopic text there, and I missed it?

    No woman should ever obey the “King” or “the government” like she obeys her husband. Likewise, no husband should ever obey the “King” or “the government” as he obeys Jesus.

    (Yes, I realize this raises the secondary concern of the role of the authority of governments, yada, yada, yada, but that isn’t what I am addressing right now.)

    On to something that I think no one has pointed out yet. All you all ever realize that whenever someone brings up a wife obeying her husband, how the women automatically start saying “What if he beats her”, “What if he wants to use drugs”, “What if… what if… what if….”. Notice they ALWAYS assume that, given that position of authority, a man is going to abuse it? Notice they NEVER give their husbands or future husbands the benefit of the doubt? Notice how the men ALWAYS assume that, given an average guy, he’s going to do her right? Ponder on that for a bit.

    I think part of that is projection on a woman’s part. They know they’ll do those things, or at least be sorely tempted to do those things, if they are given that position of authority.

    Ladies, if you do not even have the average wisdom or common sense to pick out a husband who won’t abuse that authority, what makes you think you can handle ANY authority, married or otherwise? Best let your dad, brothers, or male cousins pick you a spouse.

    No wonder most women have so little faith in God. They can’t even muster up enough faith to believe that their future or current husbands are going to treat them right, and not abuse them.

    Look at the woman in question. She immediately assumes that her husband is going to do absolutely nothing, and become a ball-scratching couch potato who does nothing but watch TV.

    Seems to me that some women need to get rid of Jezebell before they start talking about submission.

  92. jf

    tbc, I’m gonna have to steal this… well said.

    “The husband is not the head because he makes the most money or because he works outside of the home. The headship of the husband is a responsibility and sacred trust placed on him by God. The help of the wife is likewise a responsibility and a sacred trust. ”

    Though I think I would add “The submission and help…”

  93. hurting

    Mychael/Scott:

    A bit of practical advice on how to balance work/home obligations…

    Figure out a way to execute your home responsibilities as efficiently as possible. Do not let the work expand to fill the time available. In other words, treat the mundane tedium of household management the same way you’d treat your paid employment responsibilities. By doing so you create the bandwidth to absorb new demands on your time. At work all of us are required every day to constantly improve our productivity, and so doing demands that we work smarter as opposed to just working harder. We owe this attitude 100x to over to our spouses.

  94. Ton

    Well said Sir_c, in fact God lays down some pretty unpleasant things happening if they kept clamouring for a king. Never read that as an endorsement but a condemnation

  95. Ton

    Thanks Farm Boy, don’t have much to lose really. Recently threaten with jail time and my reply was “ok, cannot pay alimony so it’s a win for me”. The world doesn’t know how to respond to a man who no longer cares about dumb shit

  96. Farm Boy

    Cail,

    Perhaps you read to little into my above comment. As you know, my target is always modern women, not our gracious hostess. At times, she is used by myself as a surrogate for said modern women, even though her behaviors are typically far superior to these females.

  97. Artisanal Toad

    Submission is a state of mind. I think the most submissive thing a woman could possibly do is write her husband a Revelation 3:19 letter, asking him to hold her accountable and if necessary to discipline her if in his sole opinion he thinks she needs it. Explain that he is required to love her as Christ loves the church and give him a signed grant of permission to use any means of discipline he things reasonable, up to and including corporal punishment.

    Ephesians 5:22-24 states it clearly, the authority of the husband over his wife is the same as the authority of Christ over the church. Physical discipline is specifically listed as one of the ways Christ loves his church. The wife who says “You don’t have the right to spank me” is not in submission. It’s tough to swallow, but that’s it. Scott, I replied (in part) to you on the “Fragging Headship” thread at Dalrock’s, but we’re talking about the same thing.

    A woman who is willing to formally sign a document in which she gives up the right to use the implied threat of a charge of domestic violence is a wife in submission. I don’t know if your wife is aware of how seriously you take that and how much of a concern you have over the possibility she’d make the call, but perhaps you two need to have a serious talk about it.

  98. Lisa in Vermont

    Artistnal Toad
    Ephesians 5:22-24 states it clearly, the authority of the husband over his wife is the same as the authority of Christ over the church. Physical discipline is specifically listed as one of the ways Christ loves his church. The wife who says “You don’t have the right to spank me” is not in submission. It’s tough to swallow, but that’s it.

    When you post crap like this on SSM’s blog you provide fodder for all of the feminist trolls who lurk here from GOMI, Free Jinger and other such sites for the sole purpose of cutting and pasting any outrageous comment they may find here. You should think twice next time you post a comment advocating physical violence.

    I won’t bother to address your asinine interpretation of Scripture.

  99. Lisa in Vermont

    Lisa, why do you equate “spanking” with “physical violence”?

    Because you are physically striking someone with the purpose of inflicting pain. After all, if it didn’t hurt it wouldn’t be effective discipline would it?

    A man should be able to successfully discipline (teach) his wife without hitting her. Read some of Elspeth’s posts. She has said repeatedly that her husband doesn’t take any crap from her and let’s her know when she’s crossed the line. She has never indicated that he spanks or physically disciplines her in any way, yet she has tremendous respect for him and submits to his authority.

    Now, if a man and wife want to incorporate some spanky spank into their sex play, and it’s mutually consensual, I don’t see anything wrong with that, but that’s a whole different issue.

  100. Deep Strength

    Lisa,

    You didn’t answer the question.

    What’s wrong with introducing it into discipline that’s not about sex, as long as it’s mutually agreed upon like Artisanal Toad said? Artisanal Toad did not say it was unilateral.

  101. Bike Bubba

    Toad, Paul’s challenge to husbands is found in Ephesians 5:25-33, and it does not include any mandate for physical discipline or violence of any kind. 1 Peter 3:7 also notes that the husband who does not treat his wife as the weaker vessel will have his prayers hindered. i would have to assume that unless somehow it’s a good idea to take a hammer to one’s china or crystal, Peter is telling us that treating our wives roughly is not going to end well for us.

  102. Cail Corishev

    Lisa, why do you equate “spanking” with “physical violence”?

    Because you are physically striking someone with the purpose of inflicting pain.

    No you’re not. The entire reason for spanking on the rear is that the padding there prevents serious pain or damage and makes it about dominance and control. By spanking, a parent can discipline even a very small child and show him who’s in charge without having to worry about really hurting him. An abusive husband doesn’t spank his wife; he punches her or hits her in places that will cause pain without showing marks later. Spanking is pretty much the hardest way to really hurt someone (even without considering the fact that it might just end up turning you both on).

    Or do you think all parents who spank their children are engaging in “physical violence” “with the purpose of inflicting pain”?

  103. Artisanal Toad

    @Lisa

    You are most likely unaware that the husband of the wife who asked advice on marital submission has been engaged on Dalrock’s blog for several days discussing the issue of domestic violence. If you are interested, follow the comments from here:

    http://dalrock.wordpress.com/2013/08/19/fragging-christian-headship/#comment-90356

    You may find Scott’s comments, as well as those of Novaseeker and Anonymous Reader to be of interest with respect to the subject of Duluth type domestic abuse and the threat a modern husband lives under. The threat that a third party that doesn’t like the dynamic or interaction between husband and wife could call the cops and the husband would get a special trip through the court system.

    I explained that contrary to what they were saying, and especially in a situation in which the wife was not the initiator of state involvement, the wife was perfectly capable of defending her husband but she’d be forced to, um, be convincing. I suggest that you NOT read it because it has some naughty language and some of the implications of what the wife says to the judge might just curl your hair, but I wrote something that resembles a PSA script to explain how a wife can stop a domestic violence prosecution. Literally, it’s about the only way her testimony will be taken seriously in such a situation.

    So after all these long discussions on abuse and domestic violence and what the risk of exercising Biblical headship in marriage actually is, Scott said this about himself.

    http://dalrock.wordpress.com/2013/08/20/submission-is-something-a-wife-must-voluntarily-offer/#comment-90431

    That, Lisa, is the context of my answer and I’m sorry you’re offended by my answer, but I’m sticking with it. The guy has seen too much and has too much to lose to take the risk. It isn’t his fault, it isn’t her fault, it’s the culture, society and legal system we live in. If she wife’d up and wrote the letter to him like I suggest, she’d probably get the husband she’s always wanted. The point isn’t that I’m telling him to put her over his knee, the point is that she’d be removing the threatpoint of a domestic abuse/violence complaint in the only way that works.

    @Bike Bubbah,
    Read it again. Ephesians 5:22-24 is a logical syllogism. The authority of the husband over the wife (within the covenant entity called family) is exactly the same as the authority of Christ over the Church (another covenant entity). Paul was comparing and contrasting the heads of two separate covenant entities- the husband and Christ, making the point that within their own entities, their authority is supreme.

    Then take a careful look at the first 3 chapters of Revelation, sometimes known as the seven epistles of Christ. Revelation 3:19 is part of the letter from Christ to the Laodicean church. You might want to do a word study on “chastise” and give it some thought. The risen Lord clearly says that His rebuking and chastening of His church is an act of love. Now go back to Ephesians 5 and contemplate loving the wife as Christ loves the church.

  104. Joseph of Jackson

    ” You should think twice next time you post a comment advocating physical violence.”

    Congratulations on letting culture be your determining factor on biblical interpretation. Christian Feminists do it all the time. What’s your excuse?

  105. Maeve

    @ Deep Strength, I would think that the kind of marriage being discussed here would preclude anything being mutually agreed upon. The entire marriage is unilateral. The husband dictates all terms all the time. She can’t disagree because that would put her in rebellion, correct? She has no choice but to agree to any and everything put before her – although I would think that “agree” would also not really be an accurate term. In order to technically be submissive, she can’t actually consent to (implies a consideration other than agreement) or refuse anything. She is not allow to agree or disagree with anything. She must acquiesce all the time. His is the only prerogative. She has none. In this case, how could there possibly be anything mutually agreed upon? I have no skin in this game, and maybe I’m not understanding what’s at play.

  106. Deep Strength

    Thorough answer Artisanal Toad.

    I’d like to add from Eph 5 which naturally follows:

    25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, 26 so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that He might present to Himself the church [q]in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. 28 So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself;

    The way we are to love our wives is the way as Christ loved the Church — which is through washing her in the Word. What is the Word? It is Scripture.

    2 Timothy 3:16-17

    16 All Scripture is [a]inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for [b]training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

    Everyone likes to be taught and trained…. but not many of us like reproof/rebuke and correction.

    @ Maeve

    You’re a bit off in your description. Submission is not about agreeing with everything that a husband does.

    A captain that is running a ship heavily relies on his first officer for advice on many matters, especially important decisions. He needs to have a broad perspective on how to hand decisions, especially if his first officer has more experience in certain areas (say if she is in finance what to look for for interest rates on buying a new house if his job is in another area). If she disagrees with him in certain areas it is good for her to voice her opinion as it gives him additional perspective. However, submission is just that — AN ACTION — she will submit to his authority once the final decision is made and is being carried out.

    1 Peter 3 tells husbands to be considerate of the wives. If a wife disagrees about a big topic like this then, yes, a husband can overrule her. He would still be correct since he has that authority and she should still submit (see 1 Cor 7 and 1 Peter 3 for submission of Christian wives even to non-Christian husbands!). However, if he decides that it’s not worth the potential disruption in unity and considers that he is being unconsiderate over a decision like this, then the wife’s disagreement is a valid thing to persuade him. He would have to find another way to discipline her in that case.

    It’s a case by case basis based on the personalities of the husbands and wives really.

  107. Maeve

    @Artisanal Toad – I’m going to pass on reading the posts you referenced, as the particulars you allude to were never my kink, so to speak , but I’m still not seeing that she can in anyway do anything voluntarily if she has already agreed to be a submissive wife. It would seem that this very decision would be her last act of free will. She can now only echo any and everything her husband wants, or she ends up in rebellion (and thus, beaten for it, I guess?). So, now, everything she does in compulsory, rather than voluntarily. I think this would be rather like the military – an officer does not make requests or suggestions to his subordinates, as there is no right of refusal or even consideration, merely obedience. And that’s what we talking about here more or less, aren’t we? Absolute obedience.

  108. Deep Strength

    @ Maeve

    @Artisanal Toad – I’m going to pass on reading the posts you referenced, as the particulars you allude to were never my kink, so to speak , but I’m still not seeing that she can in anyway do anything voluntarily if she has already agreed to be a submissive wife. It would seem that this very decision would be her last act of free will. She can now only echo any and everything her husband wants, or she ends up in rebellion (and thus, beaten for it, I guess?). So, now, everything she does in compulsory, rather than voluntarily.

    Sigh. Instead of seeing how much of a blessing it is to be submissive and have the decision making responsibility fall upon husbands women find a way to complain.

    As Christians we are to be in submission to God. Does that mean we have no freedom? Does that make everything compulsory?

    Do you REALLY think most husbands want to micromanage their wives? Men don’t like drama.

    I think this would be rather like the military – an officer does not make requests or suggestions to his subordinates, as there is no right of refusal or even consideration, merely obedience. And that’s what we talking about here more or less, aren’t we? Absolute obedience.

    Totally incorrect as I illustrated in the above post.

    Officers may ask to speak freely to give advice, and often a commanding officer is smart to hear them out because when they do they usually have valuable information. Additionally, if a commanding officer is speaking to one of his subordinates about a topic they may speak about it freely by giving their opinion.

    Commanding officers want their subordinates to bring them information and give them advice to help them make decisions.

  109. FuzzieWuzzie

    Maeve, it occurs to me that rather than debate men about this issue, since it can be ssen as a conflict of interest that you would need to defend yourself against, you should be talking to to the women that make this work. The sense that I get is, once relieved of the burden of leadership or rebellion, they relax and put faith in their husband’s abiliy to lead judiciously.

  110. Artisanal Toad

    @Maeve
    Most would probably agree that there is a vast chasm between being a Christian and making Christ the Lord of your life. There is also a difference between merely marrying a man (with the attendant agreement to honor and obey him) and consciously choosing to be obedient to him on a day-to-day basis because your Lord requires it of you.

    So, now, everything she does in compulsory, rather than voluntarily. I think this would be rather like the military – an officer does not make requests or suggestions to his subordinates, as there is no right of refusal or even consideration, merely obedience. And that’s what we talking about here more or less, aren’t we? Absolute obedience.

    You are correct. Christ is our Lord and He does not make requests of us, He commands us. So, are you free in Christ while in absolute obedience to Him? If so, re-read Ephesians 5:22-24 and ask yourself if you have freedom in your marriage while being in absolute obedience to your husband.

    The Lord wrote to seven different churches, all of whom were in various states of obedience/disobedience. To only one church did He threaten rebuke and chastisement but to every church He offered rewards for obedience and diligence. You are attempting to take this where it was not meant to go and claim beating (the Lord didn’t use that term) is the only tool in the toolbox. No.

    I suggest you do take a look at the two posts on Dalrock’s blog that I linked to and come to grips with the feminist Sword of Damocles husbands have hanging over their heads these days. As Vox would say, “I don’t expect you to agree with me, I don’t even expect you to understand” but it would be in your bests interests if you and every other Christian wife took the time to try and understand. As was pointed out in those two posts, you could be a wonderful, submissive, happy Christian wife… and some feminist witch who was offended by that could call the police and report your “abusive” relationship. Your husband would be arrested and charged with domestic violence/abuse. He would be convicted unless YOU defended him and you might be amazed at what you’d have to do to properly defend him.

    A claim of religious free exercise wouldn’t work, that’s “Spiritual Abuse” and he’d get a harsher sentence. No. You’d be forced to claim (if you really wanted the charges to go away) that the dominant/submissive nature of your relationship was all about your sexual gratification. THAT, dear, is where we are today. I live in the real world and I deal with this stuff on a day-to-day basis.

  111. sunshinemary Post author

    On the spanking-as-discipline debate…

    My husband doesn’t spank me as discipline. I am aware that some couples do this; for example, there is a thing called Christian Domestic Discipline, in which the husband spanks the wife for disobeying him. I have no moral problem with it. What I have is a problem of practicality. I mean, how does this even work?

    Because frankly, I’m no stranger to being across my husband’s knee, and we all know what happens next. So if I disobey him and he spanks me and we have sex…somehow after this lovely episode, I’m supposed to learn my lesson? Yeah, that’ll teach me! LOL I wish he’d do that, frankly, instead of just disassembling my darn dishwasher.

  112. Maeve

    @ Deep Strength, I’m not complaining. As I said earlier, I have no skin in this game. It’s just that these are concepts entirely foreign to me. So, I’m asking questions, or rather, I guess I’m repeating in my own language what I think I’m hearing/reading. I’m also really stupid with comments, so I can’t do neat things like copy previous comment content and reference it here. But I think I’m going to stand my by likening this type marital arrangement to a military officer/subordinate relationship – I never said that the superior officer might not ask for inputs, but his decisions are orders, not suggestions and there is no right of refusal on the part of the subordinate.

  113. Bike Bubba

    Toad, if you think that Ephesians 5:22-4 endorses violence against one’s wife–or any portion of the Bible for that matter–then I hope that (a) you are and remain single and (b) you are not and will not become a church officer. If you should happen to be married and following your perverse, heretical advice, it is my hope that the elders and deacons of the church will administer the discipline you would richly deserve.

    Ephesians speaks of cleansing one’s wife in the Word, not abusing her, and 1 Peter 3:7 speaks very clearly of the consequences that follow when a man does not live with his wife as the weaker vessel. Your prayers will not be heard.

  114. sunshinemary Post author

    Heavens to Betsy, a swat on the rump is hardly abuse, people. In my book, in fact, that’s sex. But let’s say you are a woman who dislikes being smacked on the rear…even so, if your husband does this, do you really feel that this is abuse? I just see abuse differently. I see it as serious physical violence – repeatedly slapping across the face hard, or punching or kicking or pushing some down on the ground hard enough to hurt them. That can be physically abusive if a man does this repeatedly and is not in control of his temper. Or just as likely, if a woman does this (since studies show that women initiate a good 50% of DV altercations), she is also behaving in an abusive way if it’s not just a one off kind of thing.

  115. sunshinemary Post author

    his decisions are orders, not suggestions and there is no right of refusal on the part of the subordinate.

    Maeve, that is correct. That is what submission is. His decisions are final. We often discuss issues together because he values my input; sometimes he delegates decisions to me because he is busy or does not care about that issue. But in anything he cares about, his final decisions are final and they are orders, not suggestions. Of course, we live in a feminist society, so legally I have the right to refuse. However, if I do refuse, there will consequences. Insubordination is unsubmissiveness. It should never be tolerated.

  116. FuzzieWuzzie

    Artisanal Toad, don’t feel too bad. When SSM wrote her “fat acceptance” post, I tried to counter with a “Skinny bear acceptance” arguement. Nobody even laughed at me!
    You’re not an asshole. We’re all here trying to pin the tail on a donkey.

  117. Joseph of Jackson

    Toad, you’re not an asshole. You told them exactly what scripture states, in clear english. They know the man is supposed to be the wife’s ruler. They know she is supposed to submit. They know that the husband has the final say in matters relating to her. They also grew up in a world that taught them about equality. A world of unicorns, rainbows, and underwear gnomes where there is a perfect ideal to strive for that is based on man’s ideals. You have rattled them. They openly wish you wouldn’t procreate because any man who thinks like you shouldn’t be in the gene pool. You tried your best man. The seed has been planted and their strong objections are proof that it made an impact. You’ve done a good job, now let the Holy Spirit decide the next steps for them.

  118. Maeve

    Hi Mr. Bear. I wasn’t looking to debate. I had some questions and got some answers. That’s all. Tonight is my night for bad SyFymovies (Sharknado and Ghostshark) – they’re my secret vices. Don’t tell anyone.

  119. FuzzieWuzzie

    Maeve, Shhh! I won’t tell anyone. Keep your bear close by if it gets really scary.
    I once heard that nobody sets out to make a bad movie and, yet, so many manage to do that.

  120. Farm Boy

    I once heard that nobody sets out to make a bad movie

    I just watched Sharknado, and I have doubts about your assertion.

  121. Scott

    So, here is my take on the issue that began as a debate between Lisa and AT/JOJ.

    It leads, through not very many degrees of separation to a discussion about changing laws–mostly DV ones. However, others are tangential. SSM has argued for the repeal of marital rape, etc. There are some good arguments for this, and some are simple pragmatism. Enforcement of some of that stuff leads to bizarre interpretations of the law and injustices/intrusions on basic human rights. That is not a biblical issue, it is a natural law argument.

    It is often pointed out on these sites that guys with daughters may end up sabotaging any efforts to roll back some of this stuff. This is a point I have tried to listen to–I have a daughter. So here is the thing. If I had a magic wand and could change the laws to instantly reflect their pre-1955 status would I do it? Honestly, no.

    But the reason is more complex than one might think. My problem is when I look at the typical 19-20 year old guy–with the kind of training they have been receiving (or lack of) on how to be a husband–I would be terrified to give them absolute power over their wives without a correlating movement on what benevolent headship means. A ratcheting back approach makes more sense to me. For all the abuses I saw as a DV counselor, I also saw some pretty gruesome pictures in police reports–biting ears off, caved in eye sockets, etc.

    To back up–teaching boys headship without REAL abuse is part of what the courtship pledge is about. It is not the main point, but I think presents itself as an opportunity to talk to boys about “frame” and self control in the presence of an out of control woman.

    So in the end, I understand what LIV is saying. I understand AT/JOJs position as well. We have to start from where we are. An instant overhaul I think may not be wise. I am open to discussion about it. These are just recent thought, not entirely developed.

    Plus you guys totally hijacked a thread that was about my wife. :)

  122. Maeve

    Farm Boy, You’re killing me! Sharknado is quality gross. And now for a second helping – Ghost Shark.
    Fuzzie, not to worry – Bear is right here, suitably disgusted with me for watching this drek (his words, not mine).

  123. Amanda

    Maeve

    It’s really not too bad being a submissive wife I promise! I’ve been at this for ten years so far and I consider our marriage awesome! I will say that the more both parties in the marriage are committed to serving Christ the easier the dynamic plays out in my experience. Someone said above that a wife learns to have faith in her husband, and I guess that is true to a point, but my ultimate faith isn’t in my fallible husband but in The Lord who never fails. I hope to be able to say that even if my husband treated me terribly I did the right thing and remained submitted — though he slay me yet will I trust him and all that.

    To the OP:

    Not sure if you’re still reading on here, but as I re-read the thread I realized you were looking for practical ways to show submission. Sorry for waxing eloquent lol. Here are some things I do:

    1. Cover your head for prayer and church — sometimes while at home I keep a head covering on as I find myself praying a lot through the day.
    2. Always put and serve husband first — like at meals etc, I even tell the children “daddy’s first!” as it is common now to put children first and this is a good lesson for them.
    3. When he gets home or you arrive home, go greet him first thing, and teach your children to do it too — shows honor and respect for position.
    4. Dress feminine at his discretion (my husband likes pants for me sometimes) and take care of your appearance, etc.
    5. Dress sexy at home — again at his discretion and depends on age of children ymmv.
    6. Go to him with problems you have — ask if its a good time to talk first.
    7. When he gives you an answer, no matter how simple or silly it seems to you, put your feelings aside and just do it; God honors faith.
    8. Cultivate a quiet and gentle spirit — this takes prayer, ask God to show you all the ways you not this way. Ask husband about this as well.
    That’s all I can think of right now. Probably already stuff you know and are doing, but, there you go.

  124. Amanda

    Oh one more:
    9. Do nice little serving things for him like see if he needs a snack, drink, wants you to bake up cookies, whatever. If you are running out to the store, check with him if he would like any little thing you could pick up for him etc.

  125. Farm Boy

    My problem is when I look at the typical 19-20 year old guy–with the kind of training they have been receiving (or lack of) on how to be a husband–I would be terrified to give them absolute power over their wives without a correlating movement on what benevolent headship means

    So true. Probably in the old days, there was a culture to prepare them, plus role models.

  126. Lisa in Vermont

    Maeve, it occurs to me that rather than debate men about this issue, since it can be ssen as a conflict of interest that you would need to defend yourself against, you should be talking to to the women that make this work. The sense that I get is, once relieved of the burden of
    leadership or rebellion, they relax and put faith in their husband’s abiliy to lead judiciously.

    Maeve,
    I agree with Fuzzie on this. It’s easy to understand why you have trouble believing that women can be happy in a submissive relationship. From what you’ve shared about your life your husband hasn’t been a godly leader and he’s mistreated you terribly.

    It’s much easier to submit to a godly man. I’m not saying that your husband has to prove that he’s worthy of your submission; Christian wives have to do submit regardless. But, it certainly feels more comfortable submitting to a man you can trust fully.

    I’ll give you an example of how submission works in my own life. My husband has full control of the finances. I work full time, but he manages our money. I have a weekly allowance of $20 and he tells me how much he wants me to spend on groceries (usually $150-$200 for six people).

    He’s not a dictator. If there are some great sales at the supermarket I can stock up and go over budget at my discretion, and if I see a dress on I like on the clearance rack he won’t have a fit if I treat myself, but he definitely sets parameters that I’ve agreed to abide by.

    Recently, he had to replace his car because it had nearly 200,000 miles on it. He asked me for my opinion on what we should do and I told him that I trusted him to make the best decision for our family. He went to the car dealer by himself and when he got home he said that he wanted to buy a particular SUV for himself, but doing so would require us to trade in my car as well as his car. He would then get me a new used car.

    I just said, “OK., that’s fine with me.” My only request was that my new used car have all-wheel drive b/c my job requires me to drive all over northern Vermont in all types of weather.

    He negotiated the deal and when it came time to trade in our cars for the new ones I just followed him to the dealer. The salesperson asked if I wanted a test drive and I told him that it wouldn’t be necessary b/c my husband had already driven the car so I knew that it would suit my needs. The salesman looked at me like I had two heads. I’ll bet that never happened to him.

    Then I just went into the office with my husband, filled out the paperwork, and drove home. No debate. No drama. No worries. I trusted him fully to make an important decision and he did just fine.

    Had this happened before I was submissive there would have been a big discussion about what type of car to buy, I would have insisted on several test drives, and I would have nagged him about whether we could afford the car payment.

    Sometimes submission is just easier.

    [ssm: Excellent example. Thank you for sharing it.]

  127. Hannah

    Hi Mychael :) Nice to ‘meet’ you!

    It sounds as though you’re committed to having an attitude of submissiveness and are already putting this into action in many ways.

    To me it’s imperative that you AIM TO PLEASE your husband. You must know him well after years of living with him. Take care to listen to his comments about likes/dislikes and then endeavour to fulfill his desires even the simple little things.
    Keep your demeanour sweet and cheerful and kind. Don’t whinge to your husband. Pray to God if things get difficult.

    The fact that you are respecting your husband’s wishes for you to work outside of the home is submission in it’s rawest form.(presuming it’s his desire that you work full-time and not yours)
    If it is a matter of finances – is there a way to contribute to the lightening of the load by becoming more frugal? Not wanting to imply that you’re not already – but very often a woman can make appliances and activities seem like a NEED to their husband instead of just a WANT and not many men are willing to pull the plug on the status quo. I suggest a hard re-think on everything costly that perhaps could be forfeited and might hasten your return to being a SAHM.

    It’s wonderful that you’re willingly wearing the dresses and skirts your husband has bought for you and talking to your friends in a different way in regard to your husband’s leadership (ie that he TOLD you to quit your job etc) Good for you – keep it up! Don’t let friends derail conversations by whingeing about men – correct their behaviour if possible…. shut down the conversation if need be…. walk away if they carry on!

    Seeing as your husband is in the room talking to about this whole topic of submission – I will say Hi Scott :) If your wife is obeying your instruction to work full-time, is learning here of what you want more of from her, if your lunch is made for you every day with a little note in each one, if you get an iced drink placed in front of me every night when you get home by a wife who is wearing what you desire – then I would say Scott – you are very much a lucky man already :)

    Good work Mychael! Keep it up :)

  128. Hannah

    Lisa in Vermont – great story!

    It highlights the difference between submission at the END of a debate versus a submissive attitude in the very BEGINNING of the story.

    Often our husband’s don’t even need to be aware of our choice to submit – they only need to see our sweet response without realising the shrewish alternative that was suppressed/controlled/prayerfully re-wired!

    What I think is important about this is that outwardly recognised submission could end up leading to pride… maybe that’s a clumsy way of saying it but what I’m thinking of is
    “Ooh look at me being all submissive husband! Aren’t you lucky I’m making your life better?!”
    If he notices things and compliments then that’s lovely. If not it keeps us humble.

    Mostly it’s the things that don’t need or get recognition that are constantly setting the flavour.
    We can serve our men Sweet or Sour – our choice ladies :)

  129. nightskyradio

    how would you advise this woman and her husband? What practical tips can you give them to help keep their marital hierarchy functioning properly even though they are both working full time?

    Probably not model herself after “the formidable Mrs. Entwhistle”…

  130. Bike Bubba

    Toad, if citing the Scripture accurately counts as White Knighting, I’ll do it all day long. You would do well to try it.

    So what we have here is, apparently, that some people view spanking as a turn-on, in which case it will be ineffective discipleship of one’s wife in the case of a sin issue, and others view it as violence, in which case it falls on the wrong side of 1 Peter 3:7.

    In either case, moronic idea, and it has nothing to do with holding women up on a pedestal, but rather has everything to do with treating one’s “spare rib” the way God intended. As the, ahem, weaker vessel.

    Nice name-calling, Toad, but that merely demonstrates that you are either unable or unwilling to make a real argument. They don’t call it the ad hominem “fallacy” for nothing, after all.

  131. Ed Bunker

    “I have a weekly allowance of $20 and he tells me how much he wants me to spend on groceries (usually $150-$200 for six people).”

    Just can’t imagine that Proverbs 31 woman with an allowance. . . .”She considers a field and buys it. . . “

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  133. lisainvermont

    @Ed Bunker

    Just can’t imagine that Proverbs 31 woman with an allowance. . . .”She considers a field and buys it. . . “

    In our marriage this just works best. My husband is happiest when he controls our household finances and for the most part it hasn’t been an issue.

    Plus, I tend to be very frugal, which helps. For instance, even though my weekly personal allowance is small, I’ve saved enough to buy these boots this fall: http://shop.nordstrom.com/s/steve-madden-fairmont-boot/3287497.

    If I needed more spending money, I could discuss it with my husband and I’m sure he would be reasonable about it.

  134. mrsdarlings

    There are different levels of submission as there are different levels to being alpha. It depends on what the man wants and what the woman is willing to do at their level of progression. Me personally i don’t see anything wrong with a woman working out of the home IF the husband is the employer. A woman cannot serve two masters. Having a job is having two masters because the employer controls the womans time, , thoughts, energy to building his “kingdom”/ corporation. When really these belong to the husband towards, his goals and his dreams. It also stunts the husbands ambition levels and capacity to find solutions to provide protect and lead. It also makes it harder for him to next her if needed. It is also another sign that a woman does not believe in his capacity to provide or belief in herself to reduce house hold expenses.It’s also a lack of belief that the lord doesn’t provide Having a women work for another employer is pretty much the same as the man getting welfare from the state instead of being the one who has secured his own financial freedom for the family. This is as i see it. Offering a different perspective to help you on your path. The lord giveth no commandments save he shall prepare a way for the children of men :D

    With love and respect
    From

    http://housewifesexuality.wordpress.com/

  135. Mary Ellen (@WorkingHomeKpr)

    lisainvermont: “In our marriage this just works best. My husband is happiest when he controls our household finances and for the most part it hasn’t been an issue.”

    It works in our marriage as well. My husband controls all income, investing and budgeting. I receive a weekly allowance ($30), weekly envelopes for groceries ($100/wk for family of 6) and a monthly envelope for children clothing needs ($25).

  136. Farm Boy

    We can serve our men Sweet or Sour – our choice ladies

    I have seen the sour. Why is it that women, even if things are just fine, feel compelled to push for more? And blow up a marriage in doing so?

    It would seem that even in times of extreme material wealth, their shit testing apparatus just cannot be disengaged.

    Or is shit testing just fun to do?

    I shit test, therefore I am.

  137. Amanda

    @ Lisa and Mary Ellen,
    I also agree that husband handling the finances works better for many marriages. For all of my marriage I have handled the finances at my husband’s request,and I can tell you, I have finally persuaded him that he is better suited to it and he is considering taking it over. I will be glad to be rid of that burden!

  138. Elspeth

    On handling finances. My husband prefers that I do it. He works a lot of hours and when he is off he’d rather not be so bothered: “That’s what I have you for” is his refrain.

    So I handle it by writing out the budget in detail, what I estimate will be spent on what, fixed costs, miscellaneous, etc. I print and give it to him, and he tells me what if anything needs to be changed.

    This works well for us.

  139. Amanda

    You know, my SIL and another good friend both are the ones to handle the finances, and it works great for them too. I think hubs would prefer me to keep doing it, but I just tend to worry about it. I don’t know why, as things always seem to work out ok.

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  142. Wild Man

    I didn’t read every last comment on this thread, so perhaps this has already been covered, but Titus 2:3-5 tells the recipient to “Teach the older women to be reverent … Then they can teach the younger women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled and pure, TO BE BUSY AT HOME, to be kind, to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the Word of God.”

    I could be way off on this one, but it sounds like The Lord wants his young daughters working – in a defined and formatted task that keeps them away from other men and from the sin that so easily entangles.

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