Stuff feminists say: all non-consensual touching is sexual assault.

I read a baffling article at Feministe yesterday entitled In the Margins: A Perspective on Sexual Assault Conversations.  You really have to read it to believe it, but here are a few excerpts:

I’m not the typical survivor you hear about in the news or hear described in the vast majority of public conversations about assault. I wasn’t at a party. I wasn’t drunk. I wasn’t drugged. I wasn’t in a dark alley. It wasn’t a violent attack. I have no scars or bruises. And I wasn’t penetrated.

…what started as a consensual act suddenly turned nonconsensual for an extended period, and then back again before the encounter quickly ended.

It’s hard to tell what happened because as is always the case with these kinds of stories, she’s very coy with the details, but it would appear that she was engaging in some kind of consensual fooling around with a man and didn’t like something he was doing to her, something which apparently involved no form of penetration or oral stimulation, which he then stopped doing and then went back to doing something else that was consensual and it’s all rather vague but we should just take her word for it: it was definitely assault.  I  can’t even understand what might have been going on, let alone how it could have been that scarring.  So, what is sexual assault, exactly, then?  She explains (highlighting mine):

…nonconsensual sexual touching is sexual assault. Whether one is touching another with or without clothing, whether one is touching another’s genitals or any other part of their body—in any and every circumstance, it will never not be sexual assault. 

So, by this definition, touching someone’s clothed arm while engaging in a consensual kiss could in fact be sexual assault if he didn’t ask first to touch her arm.  Does anyone else find this ludicrous?  This takes enthusiastic consent to the point of total absurdity.  It begs the question: is there anything that isn’t sexual assault?  Really, if a man taps a woman on the shoulder in line at Starbucks to let her know that she should look up from her phone because it’s her turn to order, that would “never not be sexual assault” by the above definition.  What would motivate a woman to write an article like this?  Actually, she explains that:

It takes effort to extend dialogue to include as many people as possible. But we need to make that effort, in order to make it clear that penetrative sexual assault is not the only kind of sexual assault, and that one is not objectively less traumatizing than another. And not just as an addendum; this needs to be an important part of the conversation. People like me need to be important parts of these conversations, just like rape survivors are.  Not getting the attention and support that others get is daunting.

Ah, other women are getting attention, but she is not getting any attention.  Hell hath no fury like a woman who isn’t getting any attention.  She just wants to enjoy the status of victim, with all the murmured You poor thing and You are so strong affirmations from the rest of the female herd.

You know, I actually do believe that she feels traumatized by the sexual activity she engaged in with the man.  I have no doubt that she is being honest about that, and my heart goes out to her and all women who keep trying to have sex with men they aren’t married to and keep feeling violated by it.  They don’t understand why they feel that way – after all, we’re all sex positive now! – so they believe that they are feeling violated because they were assaulted.  That is what they are taught by feminist propaganda, but the truth is they are feeling violated because women were not designed to be used like communal toilets for multiple men’s semen.  It doesn’t matter if you are a Christian or a Darwinist because under neither model is female promiscuity the norm.  There was no time in the pre-Christian past when females were mating with large numbers of males.

And for the men – you think hard monogamy doesn’t benefit you?  Well, how about a rape charge; would that benefit you?  When I wrote a post on campus sexual assault, I had more than one man come forward and describe being falsely accused of rape or sexual assault.  One man ended up spending tens of thousands of dollars to fight the charges.  If you have sex with a woman to whom you are not married, you are risking an assault charge.  It’s as simple as that.

Women can continue being serially promiscuous, but they’re going to continue feeling violated if they do.  Men can continue being uncommitted and promiscuous, but they’re going to continue being accused of sexual assault if they do.  Don’t kid yourself that the laws on this are going to change; they are not, and it’s not even clear that it would benefit society if they did.

Lifetime hard monogamy with no divorce for women, and lifetime fidelity and commitment (under either a monogamous or polygynous system) with no divorce for men: this is the only system that protects both men and women.

Further reading:

346 thoughts on “Stuff feminists say: all non-consensual touching is sexual assault.

  1. redpillsetmefree

    In theory.
    There is no guarantee of sex or any other benefit for men under the current system. There is only a guarantee of a cash payment to the wife, regardless of how she behaves in a marriage.

    Irrefutable conclusion:
    Women are toxic and dangerous to men whether you’re married to them or not.

  2. tz2026

    You forgot retro-activity – If she later feels she didn’t like it, it will become non-consensual, i.e. sexual assault, though there was either no indication or positive consent given at the time of the act.

    Of course Alphas can do anything because she will feel it is good. But Alphas tend not to be be very nice – she feels good specifically by being misused by a dominant male. When the males aren’t being cads, then they cease being attractive.

    But that is why decent men are in effect on strike – at least those with any sense. Alphas, Betas, and Gammas. But I think men can adapt their behavior – The reason there was a Patriarchy was because men were expected to be (or at least act) like Alphas and high betas – head of household as well as provider without contradiction.

    Now Feminists say they want men to act like gammas but end up giving themselves to alphas (or pick-up artists, who are basically acquired alphas).

    In Ayn Rand’s “The Fountainhead” there is a rape scene, but if you read it in the light of “Game”, it is anything but. And this was written before most of us here were born. The interesting thing is she was not Christian but got it. The scene could be out of any of the manosphere stories.

  3. deti

    “If you have sex with a woman to whom you are not married, you are risking an assault charge. It’s as simple as that.”

    According to Bike Bubba on the thread yesterday, if you have sex with a woman to whom you ARE married, you’re risking an assault charge.

  4. sunshinemary Post author

    According to Bike Bubba on the thread yesterday, if you have sex with a woman to whom you ARE married, you’re risking an assault charge.

    It goes without saying that marital rape is not even a thing. Consent was given when she said, “I do.” Marital rape laws are a new thing in human history, only a decade or two old in some states. They should be repealed.

    And not only that, but I don’t believe any man desires to take his wife against her will. I just don’t believe this happens, I really don’t. If anything, men are too timid in approaching their wives for sex and by asking her permission, they trip her choice anxiety switch.

  5. sunshinemary Post author

    Who is more likely to file a rape complaint: a married woman or a single woman? Marital rape allegations are likely very rare, unlike sexual assault complaints, which are very common. How common? Well, does the number 1 in 4 mean anything to you?

    [ssm: I have edited this comment to make it sound less bitchy.]

  6. Cautiously Pessimistic

    This whole setup reminds me of the traffic laws. You can drive safely, with the flow of traffic; or you can drive legally, obstructing the flow of traffic and making yourself a target for road rage and drivers with poor reflexes. Depending on whether the police need to meet quota (or whatever the reason might be), they are either perfectly happy for you to drive safely, or they will pull you over because you’re the guy willing to pull over.

    Same with the sexual harrassment crap. As long you give them the tingles, women are up for all kinds of degradation. Don’t bring the tingles, or stop bringing them, and you’re opening yourself up to rape charges. Be an upright, stand-up guy and you’re celibate. Pick your poison.

  7. Ashley

    “nonconsensual sexual touching is sexual assault”

    Emphasis on “sexual.”

    I don’t think tapping someone’s shoulder at starbucks is what she would be referring to.

    [ssm: She said touching any clothed part of someone's body could be sexual assault. How could touching someone's arm be sexual touching? Her definition makes no sense at all. If it's okay to touch someone's clothed arm in some situations but not in others, how is a man supposed to know which is which? Who defines what a sexual situation is? A friendly pat on a co-workers arm? What about if that same co-worker is asking you on a date when they pat your arm? What if you've kissed that co-worker before? It's completely absurd. There is no consistency to how that is applied.

    Sticking one's penis in a woman without her consent is clearly, unequivocally rape. But touching someone's clothed arm might or might not be sexual assault? Bull pucky, I say.]

  8. Dave

    Marital rape allegations are likely very rare, unlike sexual assault complaints, which are very common. How common? Well, does the number 1 in 4 mean anything to you?

    On the 1 in 4 number it’s worth noting that that’s often based on the “researchers’” classification not that of the supposed victims who often have the audacity to disagree with the conclusion. See, e.g., page 15 of http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/182369.pdf

  9. sunshinemary Post author

    @ deti

    Nah. Other than my comment above, I’m sitting this one out.

    Before you go, though, a quick question, since you seem knowledgeable about legal issues – I can’t find any decent statistics on what percentage of rape charges involve spouses. Do you know of any sources?

  10. Alexander

    Unless she wants it to be.

    She’s redefined everything else in her little tantrum, I don’t know why we expect her to keep to the traditional usage of the word ‘sexual’.

    I mean come on, we’ve got feminists that now define ‘rape’ as putting up sexting pictures on the net or looking at her like she’s eye candy. If an act that results in no physical contact whatsoever can be considered rape, then surely physical contact of any kind from an insufficiently attractive man is as well,

  11. javaloco

    SSM: Don’t derail this conversation over something asinine like marital rape allegations, which are very rare, unlike sexual assault complaints, which are very common. How common? Well, does the number 1 in 4 mean anything to you?

    They are shooting for 1 in 1.

    But seriously, there are a myriad of reasons (not just initiated by feminist indoctrination, but largely supported by the indoctrination) that many women like this author should never ever consider being involved with a man.

    In principal, I agree with SSM re. sex only in marriage. But in the current climate, even that cannot be a safe retreat. While promiscuity is damaging, so is some of the purity mentality. IME, virgins can bring just as much baggage that can be manipulated by victim doctrine as the promiscuous.

  12. Survivor

    Say a girl is giving me a consensual blowjob. She likes it. I like it. But then for a moment, she uses teeth, touching me in a way that I did not invite, and that is painful, and that I did not consent to. Have I been… raped?

  13. Cautiously Pessimistic

    javaloco – “In principal, I agree with SSM re. sex only in marriage. But in the current climate, even that cannot be a safe retreat.

    Frivorce is the married woman’s rape charge. And that’s a 50% chance. Much higher than 1 in 4.

    Disclaimer: I agree marriage is the proper place for sex. But it is perilous, and I would argue with the idea that it’s safer (for men, at least) in any meaningful sense.

  14. sunshinemary Post author

    Survivor, LOL, very funny. By the same token, bad sex = sexual assault. After all, who would agree to have sex with someone if they knew it would be bad sex? It goes without saying that people are implicitly consenting only to good sex. But you can’t know until afterward whether it was good or bad, so really, guys, we can’t tell you whether you’ve raped us or not until we decide how much we enjoyed the sex. Ha. I’m kidding of course, but it logically follows from her definition.

  15. deti

    “Studies show that marital rape is the most common type of rape. Ten to 14 percent of all completed rapes are committed by husbands or ex-husbands, and in keeping with rape reporting statistics nationwide, experts believe this is an underestimation of the actual incidence of marital rape.” http://rapeinfo.wordpress.com/2008/05/25/marital-rape/

    Note it’s by husbands AND ex-husbands. Note also that the definition of “rape” is not given. All rapes are sexual assault, but not all sexual assaults are rape. “Rape” at the common law was defined as penetration. “Sexual assault” includes pretty much everything.

    –Telling a woman she looks nice today.
    –Saying to a woman “Can I get a smile?”
    –Wolf whistles or catcalls.
    –Saying “Holla!” to a passing woman.
    –Pinching a cute waitress’ ass.
    –Fondling a woman’s breast while kissing her, if she wants the kiss but not the grope.
    –Any sexual behavior by any man a woman believes is unattractive
    –Any conduct by anyone that any woman does not like

    Now granted. Most of the above conduct is boorish, puerile and rude. But it is NOT rape and it is NOT sexual assault.

    The following are “marital rape” nowadays, apparently, if she doesn’t expressly approve of or “want” the conduct,

     Feeling your wife’s ass while kissing her
     Grabbing her breast
     Having sex when he wants to but she doesn’t
     Sex when he persuaded her to “give in”
     Oral sex, if she really doesn’t like it all that much
     Any sexual conduct if she’s “just not feelin’ it” today
     Touching her if she’s “not in the mood”
     Initiating any kind of sex when she doesn’t want it

  16. Riddle

    “Ah, other women are getting attention, but she is not getting any attention. Hell hath no fury like a woman who isn’t getting any attention.”

    This sentence sums up this girl’s (I hesitate to call her a woman, b/c that implies adulthood) problem. She had no victim status and felt left out, so she invented one and decided that it was akin to forcible penetrative rape.

    Her post reminds me of some girls I went to university with who thought that being on the receiving end of a wolf whistle/ cat call was “rape.”

  17. deti

    And by the way, ALL that stuff I mentioned in my 10;35 am comment are A-OK if you are an attractive man. You can pinch that waitress’ ass or feel up your wife in broad daylight – if you look like Tom Brady.

    But be unattractive, or beta, and you do so much as look at some woman for a second too long, you’ll have cuffs slapped on you before you can say “Hi, my name is___________”

  18. sunshinemary Post author

    Deti, thanks for the info…do you think that website is reliable? I saw that 10-14% of married women stat, but then I took a look at the actual study it came from, and it’s very poorly done. I don’t trust that source as accurate. I was hoping for something from law enforcement or the judicial system that says X number of rape charges that are filed involve spouses, but I couldn’t find anything like that.

    I don’t trust feminist research sources. I don’t believe 1 in 4 women are sexually assaulted and I don’t believe 1 in 10 married women are raped. I also don’t believe that that many women even believe they’ve been raped or assaulted. It’s what Dave mentioned above; researchers interview subjects and then they decide whether to list her as having been assaulted or not, regardless of what she herself may think. It’s pure feminist propaganda.

  19. sunshinemary Post author

    From Lies, Damn Lies, and Rape Statistics by Ryan Fleming:
    “…numerous other activists make the bold claim that one in every four college women is a victim of rape or attempted rape. This number is astonishing and no doubt eyebrow-raising. To put it in perspective, in the nation’s most violent city (Detroit), the total violent crime rate was 2.1 percent in 2012. That figure includes murder, rape, assault, and robbery. If the one in four figure shouted at feminist rallies is correct, the nation is willingly sending its daughters to places with a violent crime rate several times that of the most dangerous city in the country.

    The number seems even more dubious when compared to statistics put forth annually by the Bureau of Justice Statistics. The Bureau interviews a random sampling of nearly 150,000 Americans about their criminal victimization, and in 2009 and 2010 they determined that the occurrence of rape of women was 0.23 percent and 0.21 percent, respectively.

    So with the figure in mind, it is prudent to see where the one in four statistic comes from. In 1985, Ms. magazine published a study by Mary Koss in which she surveyed over 3,000 college females nationwide asking them ten questions about sexual violence. When determining whether the female was a victim of rape, Koss did not explicitly ask if she had been raped; rather, Koss used her own criteria. From her survey, she determined that 15.4 percent had been raped and 12.1 percent had been victims of attempted rape.

    However, the survey came with a curious caveat: when directly asked if they had been raped, only 27 percent of the women whom Koss had determined were victims of rape answered in the affirmative. So of the highly publicized (and already exaggerated) one- in-four statistic, 73 percent of those women did not even believe they were raped, and an astonishing 35 percent had intercourse with the alleged rapist again.

    The discrepancy arose from a question that asked, “have you had sexual intercourse when you didn’t want to because a man gave you alcohol or drugs?.” While Koss determined that this was qualified as rape, the overwhelming majority of victims did not agree.

    When held up to such scrutiny, Koss’s survey holds as much water as a sieve. If one looks at the actual numbers for sexual assault on college campuses, her results seem almost laughable.

    Thanks to the Clery Act, universities in America make public all reported campus crimes. This allows anyone to look at every instance of reported crimes on the campus and, in particular, all incidents of sexual violence. I decided to take a look at the reported violent sexual crimes for Brown, and fortunately for women but perhaps disappointing for feminists, the result came nowhere near Koss’s figures. For the past three years, the average number of reported forcible sex offenses (which range from groping of private parts to penetration) was 8.66. The number varied from as low as seven to as high as 10. With an estimated 3,141 female undergraduates, 0.28 percent are victims of reported sexual violence each year. This is inconsistent with the one in four statistic, but on par with the national average.

  20. sunshinemary Post author

    And by the way, ALL that stuff I mentioned in my 10;35 am comment are A-OK if you are an attractive man. You can pinch that waitress’ ass or feel up your wife in broad daylight – if you look like Tom Brady. But be unattractive, or beta, and you do so much as look at some woman for a second too long, you’ll have cuffs slapped on you before you can say “Hi, my name is___________”

    I would be careful with that line of reasoning. An unattractive man might be more likely to be accused of assault during the interaction, but I believe an attractive man is just as likely to be accused of assault after the interaction if he then withdraws his attention from the woman. Remember, nothing is worse for women than loss of attention. That could send her into a rage that ends in an allegation. “Alphas” are not protected by virtue of their sexual attractiveness.

  21. deti

    “I would be careful with that line of reasoning.”

    I was using hyperbole to explain a point. there are some around here who hate it when I use humor or absurdity to demonstrate points that every single man posting on this board knows are true.

    Attractive men can hit on women. Unattractive men cannot.

    Attractive men can get away with a whole hell of a lot more than unattractive men.

    Whether or not something is “assault” or “rape” or “harassment” is based in no small part on how attractive the man is.

    Attractive man = prospect. Beta man = perpetrator.

    Attractive alpha husband showing dominance = sexy, turn on.

    Beta husband attempting to show dominance = creepy, violent, weird, rapist.

  22. Farm Boy

    Beta husband attempting to show dominance = creepy, violent, weird, rapist.

    But his money still satisfies her needs.

  23. Yaakov

    “Lifetime hard monogamy with no divorce for women, and lifetime fidelity and commitment (under either a monogamous or polygynous system) with no divorce for men: this is the only system that protects both men and women.”

    Yes, that is absolutely correct – and – it is the prescription of God’s Law/Torah with one caveat: In God’s Law a man may divorce an unfaithful wife. (Deuteronomy 24/Matthew 19)

  24. feeriker

    So, what is sexual assault, exactly, then?

    Whatever a woman says it is.

    Unwise as I knew it to be before leaping in, I tried to read the original article, but got only about a third of the way through it before both my patience and tolerance thresholds were exceeded.
    I came away from this unpleasant little literary experience having drawn only one conclusion: women in the western world, especially American women, have been for far too long sufficiently spoiled and coddled by an advanced society that enables them to trivialize or ignore real dangers, dangers faced by women far less privileged then themselves and spend their time vomiting up pseudo-intellectual, emotion-laden tripe like this article. This author represents Exhibit A in support of that hypothesis and probably has never faced real danger of sexual assault ever in her life.

    Much as I hate to say it, one silver lining of the impending civilizational implosion is that women like this anonymouse author(ess) will be forced by circumstances to jettison their juvenile delusions, grow up, and face REAL problems, as their very survival will depend upon it. (The writer of this piece will face them on her own, of course. I doubt that any man who knows her will even consider wasting his resources or extending his protection to her.)

  25. Farm Boy

    If an act that results in no physical contact whatsoever can be considered rape, then surely physical contact of any kind from an insufficiently attractive man is as well

    This is clearly true. We can all go home now.

  26. feeriker

    @ deti @ 10/1/13 11:05AM:

    Amazing, isn’t it, that it’s necessary for you to have to repeat this constantly. It’s like having to describe over and over again, in excruciating detail, why the inhalation of oxygen is necessary to the sustenance of life.

  27. Carlotta

    Is there any chance, at any point, it will occur to one of these women to stop being a slut as it keeps you from being in MOST situations that you would ever have any sexual situation that you do not like? It is as if there is a complete and utter loss of logic and understanding the simple concept of cause and effect.
    Seriously, WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON!

  28. deti

    Feeriker:

    It must be explained over and over again because women just don’t live in that world.

    The average woman (including Christian women) from age 15 to age 27 or so lives in a world where men are falling all over themselves to give her attention. They all want to sleep with her. She receives nothing but affirmation, validation and attention, 24/7/365. If she wants sex, it’s on tap, whenever and wherever she wants it. If she wants attention, she can get it. If she wants a relationship or a husband, she can get that too. She’ll have to look downmarket a bit and put in some effort, but she can get that pretty easily too.

    She is not accountable to anyone, not responsible for anything, and suffers no consequences for anything. Everything – everything – is structured so as to insulate her from accountability, responsibility and consequences.

    She assumes that sex is available to everyone, because it’s so available to her and to the men she finds attractive. She assumes that all of life for everyone is as she experiences it.

  29. Carlotta

    Funny how she says it WAS consensual, then WAS NOT consensual (but never says whether she actually TOLD him this) then it WAS consensual again all in the same time period. She also says that what he did that she didn’t like wasn’t actually considered sexual.
    There was no actual “sexual assault”. It is that something happened and SHE WOULD LIKE TO REWRITE THE DEFINITION OF SEXUAL ASSAULT TO INCLUDE IT SO THAT SHE WILL BE CONSIDERED A VICTIM LEGALLY.

    When she told a friend, they said to TALK TO HIM if she didn’t want it to happen again (funny how she never goes into whether she had any type of relationship with him again). THEN her crying and screaming fits are questioned by professionals. That is very interesting. Because I would assume you have to really be reaching for a professional to tell you you might be over reacting.

  30. sunshinemary Post author

    Carlotta

    Is there any chance, at any point, it will occur to one of these women to stop being a slut as it keeps you from being in MOST situations that you would ever have any sexual situation that you do not like? It is as if there is a complete and utter loss of logic and understanding the simple concept of cause and effect.
    Seriously, WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON!

    The feminist retort to your very logical question is usually something like this:

    In other words, feminists basically say that women have NO responsibility to consider their personal safety. They can do any foolish thing they wish, and it will be excused because it’s up to other people to keep them safe. Of course, rapists and criminals are responsible for the crimes they commit, but in addition to that, any person with any ability to think logically must admit that making foolish choices is likely to lead to poor outcomes.

  31. deti

    I can’t even imagine what it’s like to be even a modestly attractive woman.

    All day, every day, you have your father and pastor calling you a “princess” and “Daughter of the King”. Whatever you want, all you have to do is flash puppy dog eyes at Daddy and he buys./gets it for you.

    Men? No problem. You fend off sexual advances every day, all day long. You’re not really hot, but you’re attractive enough to sleep with the good looking men. If you want to sleep with that hot guy, in an hour or less you will. The only way you’re alone on a Friday or Saturday night is if you want to be. The only way you are without a boyfriend is if you want to be. Men are interested in you, constantly, all the time. Your email, facebook and phone explode at all hours of the day or night with fawning messages from men who would give their left testicles for an approving glance from you. Every photograph garners 79 “likes” and 47 comments from your beta orbiters whom you wouldn’t be seen dead in public with

    If you want a slightly less hot guy to marry you, you will be in a year or so. And if it doesn’t work out, you can divorce him in a few years and if you’ve held up, you’re good to go for marriage #2.

    All sorts of opportunities are open to you. Educational doors, career doors, and social opportunities are opened to you. You are the belle of the ball wherever you go.

  32. earl

    “The feminist retort to your very logical question is usually something like this:”

    Heh…a guy presented how stupid that logic is with this analogy.

    Don’t tell me to lock up my place…teach your kids not to steal.

  33. Maeve

    This is going to sound truly awful, but these women who promulgate the dangerous ideology of “sexual assault is whatever I think it is at whatever time I think it is” – need to be shunned. It is a truly hideous mentality. They need to be shunned, labeled, called out, roundly rejected, stigmatized, denounced, pilloried – call it whatever you want – not only by men, but especially by other women who have sons, brothers, nephews, uncles, fathers that they love. If ever there was a modern need for a scarlet letter, it would be for this. These women are a walking menace to every man they encounter.

    And the other thing they do – which to my mind is just as inexcusable – is they dilute the horror that is rape. And anyone who has ever been there knows damn well that there’s no comparison whatsoever. It’s unforgivable. Absolutely and completely unforgivable.

  34. earl

    And to all feminists (and basically everyone else)…I tell you this.

    You choose the behavior, you choose the consequences. That’s not victim blaming, that’s a little thing called reality.

  35. Farm Boy

    You are the belle of the ball wherever you go.

    And it fosters an entitlement attitude. Which can wreck a women for life.

  36. earl

    “Ah, other women are getting attention, but she is not getting any attention. Hell hath no fury like a woman who isn’t getting any attention.”

    It’s their version of money in the bank…or the final score of a sports game.

    Most women are poor and athletically terrible.

  37. Bike Bubba

    Deti; I’m going to suggest that, as Scripture does not empower a man to take affection from his wife against her will, that your argument is not with me. It is with the Author of Scripture, who tells us that the solution to sin within the church is not force, but rather the reconciliation means indicated in Matthew 18.

    Enjoy losing the argument with Him! Yes, there is such a thing as rape within marriage; if a wife breaks her vows by refusing sex (or the husband for that matter), it is not permission for the other spouse to sin by brutality. See Colossians 3:19 and 1 Peter 3:7.

    Regarding the idea that any touch can be some degree of sexual assault, it reminds me of how Antioch College required signed permission forms for each level of physical interaction back in the 1990s. Yes, not everyone has permission to touch me at all, and only one person has permission to touch me sexually, but I sure would hope that we’d have the understanding that the term “sexual assault” ought to be reserved for at least a touch that could be remotely construed as sexual.

  38. feeriker

    Enjoy losing the argument with Him! Yes, there is such a thing as rape within marriage; if a wife breaks her vows by refusing sex (or the husband for that matter), it is not permission for the other spouse to sin by brutality. See Colossians 3:19 and 1 Peter 3:7.

    Then the proper response here on the deprived husband’s part might be “let’s see if you can forgo as much provision and protection as I can forgo sex.”

  39. Elspeth

    My husband couldn’t look any less like Tom Brady, and he is so used to samcking on the butt in public that he does it almost subconciously I think.

    I can’t even imagine what it’s like to be even a modestly attractive woman.

    All day, every day, you have your father and pastor calling you a “princess” and “Daughter of the King”. Whatever you want, all you have to do is flash puppy dog eyes at Daddy and he buys./gets it for you.

    Not my daddy. You have no idea, LOL. More like, “don’t be fast. Keep your legs shut. I know what kind of trouble you’ll get yourself into out there so NO, you can’t go.”

    No “princess”. No “Daughter of the King”, unless he was referring to himself, and he had enough experience with women than to think I was going to be some kind of special case. Hence, I was locked up until I decided I was leaving.

    I have no experience with this father of which you speak. He’s still the second finest man I know though.

    Your hyperbole does drive home your points, Deti. But often, I wonder if you realize that a good number of us have no first hand idea what you’re talking about. I don’t know Sunshine personally of course, but I have a hard time envisioning her being treated like a “princess” either.

    She can correct me if I’m wrong.

  40. Bike Bubba

    No, Feeriker,the proper response is the Matthew 18 reconciliation process, not to return evil for evil. If you’re not in a church that practices this, I would highly recommend you find one. It is what Christ tells us to do.

  41. Bike Bubba

    Deti’s comment on what it might be like to be an attractive woman reminds me of the “Dilbert” when Wally is told by his counselor to imagine he’s a woman. That said, as the husband of one attractive woman and the father to four attractive young ladies, and friend to other patriarchs with attractive young ladies under their roof, I can attest to the fact that his comment is pure, unadulterated nonsense. Loving patriarchs love the ladies of their household, but that does not equate to fawning flattery.

    Moreover, having known attractive women outside my family, I can also vouch for the fact that no, they do not have the experience that Deti and others speak of. Sorry, but maybe it’s time to get to know some women in the real world and see how they really see it.

  42. feeriker

    Elspeth said Your hyperbole does drive home your points, Deti. But often, I wonder if you realize that a good number of us have no first hand idea what you’re talking about. I don’t know Sunshine personally of course, but I have a hard time envisioning her being treated like a “princess” either.

    And I don’t think that most of us men who visit/post here ascribe any such characteristics to you, SSM, or the other women who frequent/support the manosphere. Deti’s post is a generic description of the 95 percent majority female population that has been immersed in and has absorbed the humanistic gynocentrism of the culture at large.

  43. feeriker

    Bike Bubba said: That said, as the husband of one attractive woman and the father to four attractive young ladies, and friend to other patriarchs with attractive young ladies under their roof, I can attest to the fact that his comment is pure, unadulterated nonsense. Loving patriarchs love the ladies of their household, but that does not equate to fawning flattery.

    Moreover, having known attractive women outside my family, I can also vouch for the fact that no, they do not have the experience that Deti and others speak of. Sorry, but maybe it’s time to get to know some women in the real world and see how they really see it.

    Solipsism: it ain’t just for women.

  44. Calliso

    I have to agree with Bike Bubba. Marital Rape is a real thing. Getting married to my husband did not suddenly magically give him the right to force himself on me against my will. And of course it doesn’t give me the right to force myself on him either. I also agree that a touch should be at least somewhat sexual in nature for it to be sexual assault. I mean I might not like if someone comes up to me and pats me on the shoulder or whatever but I am not going to claim sexual assault because of it.

    On another note when it comes to women preventing their own rapes yes there are a few things we can do to reduce the risk. Like not walking alone in bad parts of the neighborhood. But it is also important to know that women are often raped by people they know not some random stranger. Not to mention many of these women are dressed normally and not “slutty” or whatever you want to call it. Really ultimately we should not blame the victim for the crime.

  45. earl

    “Solipsism: it ain’t just for women.”

    What did you forget that men have a X chromosome too? Where do you think women learned solipsism from.?

  46. earl

    In fact what I like most about my solipsism is that it enables me to take past experiences and apply them to new situations. Women just break down in tears.

    It is quite a male gift.

  47. imnobody00

    “Lifetime hard monogamy with no divorce for women, and lifetime fidelity and commitment (under either a monogamous or polygynous system) with no divorce for men: this is the only system that protects both men and women.”

    Yes, but this does not exist anymore. Marriage died the day non-fault divorce was approved.

    [ssm: I'm just reporting the facts, sir. Lifetime hard monogamy with no divorce is the only system that protects both men and women. We don't have it right now in the West, but that doesn't change the fact that this is what works.]

  48. javaloco

    Bike Bubba @ 12:10

    You mention “brutality”. This ruins your argument. If a woman can be maritally raped, then she can take on the definition as being proposed in the Feministe article. No brutality would be required, just a simple reframing of an encounter. But then, according to the new rules, it could be made to be brutal.

  49. deti

    Bike:

    What is those attractive ladies’ experience, then?

    What is the experience of the average American woman between the ages of 15 and 27?

    I’m simply describing what I see. Describing what other pretty average girls tell me about their ordinary, everyday lives of fending off one sexual advance after another and having to choose between Alpha McGorgeous and Harley McBadboy for their date on Saturday night.

    I have a very average looking almost-14 year old daughter. She comes home every day to tell me about how some of the good looking boys and most of the average ones talk to her, shower her with attention, and otherwise kiss her ass all day long.

    I have an average wife who racked up quite the premarital N with, well, not too much effort or time at all. I dated girls before I got married who put forth about as much effort into their social lives as I’d put into selecting a breakfast cereal on a Thursday morning.

  50. Elspeth

    I have a very average looking almost-14 year old daughter. She comes home every day to tell me about how some of the good looking boys and most of the average ones talk to her, shower her with attention, and otherwise kiss her ass all day long.

    I have an average wife who racked up quite the premarital N with, well, not too much effort or time at all. I dated girls before I got married who put forth about as much effort into their social lives as I’d put into selecting a breakfast cereal on a Thursday morning.

    And none of this (NONE of it) in any way translates into guarantees of marriage for a committed Christian woman.

  51. imnobody00

    I imagine the joys of intimacy in a feminist marriage.

    FEMINIST HUSBAND: Honey, I’m feeling affectionate. I want to kiss you. Do you give me your consent?
    FEMINIST WIFE (a bit distracted): Yes, honey, I give my consent. Call the lawyer.

    Thirty minutes later, the lawyer is at home and he has drafted an agreement of consent which is 85 pages long. Both spouses read it. The lawyer explains the technicalities. Both spouses sign every page. The lawyer authenticate their signatures.

    FEMINIST HUSBAND (he is not in the mood anymore, but he proceeds): With all due consent, I am going to kiss you, my love (he start kissing her in an affectionate, non-sexual way).
    FEMINIST WIFE: Isn’t this wonderful? Having intimacy with mutual consent? Isn’t this exciting? I thank all these second-wave feminist for this!

    While kissing, the husband feels affectionate so he caresses his wife’s cheek.

    FEMINIST WIFE: What the hell are you doing???!!!! I have not given you consent to caress my cheek!!!!!!! You are a rapist bastard!!!!! Rape!! Raaaaaaaaaaaaape!!! (To the lawyer, who was about to leave the house) Call the cops!!!! Call the cops!!!!!!

    (Later, the husband is spending the night in prison while the wife is banging the pool boy).

    FEMINIST HUSBAND: I am a monster. I am a rapist. I hate myself. I shouldn’t have caressed her on her cheek. She had not given me consent. The agreement was clear. In page 57, clause 123, paragrah 3, it was stated that the cheek was off-limits. Only lip-to-lip kiss was allowed. I despise my entire gender. I am a testosterone-poised monster. Second-wave feminists were right to say all men are rapists.

    [ssm: This is hilarious! :)]

  52. seriouslypleasedropit

    So, yeah, deti’s scenario, while it does exist for some minority of women, is not the norm.

    The problem is that society wants it to be the norm. It’s the ideal that modern society holds up as aspirational.

  53. deti

    “And none of this (NONE of it) in any way translates into guarantees of marriage for a committed Christian woman.”

    True. But that is not the issue at hand. The issue at hand is what it’s like to be an average American woman; not whether a Christian woman can find a husband. But if that’s what you want to talk about, Christian women can find husbands pretty easily, in my opinion. It’s just that they don’t want the decent; good, God-fearing, faithful Christian men who are available for marriage.

  54. Carlotta

    Ok Deti but sometimes it comes across as whining. Yeah your example has it made for a few years. Tom Brady, Trump, Mark Cuban, Simon Cowell and others have that and more for decades. Women and men are different. It is hard for some men. We GET it!

    @ SSM
    First of all, someone should point out to them (including the bald hairy pit monster) in the last one that they are in no danger. Second, this seems to be a form of infectious insanity. No ones perception of reality is this off. For those who give no credence to the Bible and have some form of intelligence I dont see how you cant smell the cess pool we are in.

  55. deti

    “Ok Deti but sometimes it comes across as whining. Yeah your example has it made for a few years. Tom Brady, Trump, Mark Cuban, Simon Cowell and others have that and more for decades. Women and men are different. It is hard for some men. We GET it!”

    Hamsterlation: Please, deti, please stop talking about the facts of this sexual marketplace and marriage marketplace! Please don’t make me face up to facts anymore! Please don’t remind me that men and women are different! Please stop talking about how hard it is for most (not some, MOST) men! When you talk about these facts and try to teach people about them, you’re just complaining! You’re just a bitter whiny bitch loser!

  56. Farm Boy

    Regarding the idea that any touch can be some degree of sexual assault, it reminds me of how Antioch College required signed permission forms for each level of physical interaction back in the 1990s

    Fortunately Antioch University died.

    Unfortunately, it was reborn three years later.

    So sad.

  57. Calliso

    Yeah that description of the feminist marriage is funny. It does not remotely resemble actual reality though. Of course I realize it is meant to be hyperbole or whatever. But it seems the poster was also trying to make a point. But in truth they just sound silly and whatever point they were trying to make was lost.

  58. feeriker

    Earl said: “Solipsism: it ain’t just for women.”
    What did you forget that men have a X chromosome too? Where do you think women learned solipsism from.?

    HAHA! Touche!

  59. Elspeth

    Please, deti, please stop talking about the facts of this sexual marketplace and marriage marketplace!

    No. More like this:

    ” Please, deti, please stop conflating the sexual marketplace and marriage marketplace and then pretending as if we’re the ones confusing the issue!”

    Seriously deti. I don’t think you realize how often you pretend as if the secular meat market approach to mate finding is applicable to single Christians who are trying to do the right thing.

  60. feeriker

    Elspeth said: Seriously deti. I don’t think you realize how often you pretend as if the secular meat market approach to mate finding is applicable to single Christians who are trying to do the right thing.

    Seriously? Have you seen those ubiquitous advertisements on TV for or visited the web site for Christian Mingle? And you’re going to tell us with a straight face that the “secular meat market” approach (i.e., “dating,” as the secular world calls it) isn’t all-pervasive in the “Christian” community as well?

  61. Farm Boy

    single Christians who are trying to do the right thing

    Where does one find these? Especially the female type?

  62. Zippy

    feeriker:
    And you’re going to tell us with a straight face that the “secular meat market” approach (i.e., “dating,” as the secular world calls it) isn’t all-pervasive in the “Christian” community as well?

    Where did she say that?

  63. imnobody00

    @Deti

    When women complain, it is a legitimate grievance and everybody has to do something to address the issue. Sometimes, the whole society is changed to accommodate women’s desires.

    When men complain, it’s a bunch of whiny losers with a small dick. Shut up, slaves! Go back to slavery and don’t complain about that! Real man take all the abuse they get without complaining. Be a Real Man!

    It seems to me that manhood is the way men have been slaved in America. The opposition to every new abuse has been muted by shaming language: “Be a real man! You are better than women! You can get what you want no matter how much sh*t we throw at you! Man up! Men are resourceful, rational, capable!”. It is the strategy of the proud slave.

    American men are complicit in this strategy. They are so smug that they are ashamed to say that they have rights and needs. They prefer to posture and pretend they are the MEGA-MAN (a mixture of Rambo and John Wayne).

    I am not that proud. As any fallen being, I have needs and weaknesses. I am not ashamed to say that and to defend my rights. You can’t shame me with BS like “Stop whining! Be a (real) man!”. When I shower, I see a d*ck between my legs, so I am a man. And I am a real man, not an imaginary man like Sherlock Holmes. So shaming language seems pathetic to me.

  64. Bike Bubba

    OK, so we have Deti’s point that a woman with high N–a “loose” woman–can get it on if she makes herself available. OK, yes, but since when does that get a man to the altar–didn’t Grandma tell us that they don’t buy the cow if they’re getting the milk for free, especially if other “cows” are all to eager to do so, too? It’s not like we have a 40% illegitimate birth rate because men are eager to buy rings for sluts, after all.

    And yes, Javaloco, forcible rape is forcible and therefore brutal. This basic fact undermines my point exactly how?

  65. deti

    As I know you’ve read before, Elspeth, I and many others here tried it the “Christian” way. We tried to find women at our churches and were blown out every. Single. Time.

    From what I can see and what the reports are, and from reading Boundless and FotF and Christian authors, Christian woman approach dating, love, sex and marriage pretty much as secular women do. If anything, they’re worse. Rampant hypergamy. Sexual conduct (but only shrouded in secrecy and only with extremely attractive men). Nuclear rejection. Picky and finicky to beat the band.

    As is happening more and more, Elspeth, I am afraid we simply don’t live in the same world or perceive things the same way.

  66. RichardP

    @Elspeth: “I don’t think you realize how often you pretend as if the secular meat market approach to mate finding is applicable to single Christians who are trying to do the right thing.”

    @Deti: “Christian women can find husbands pretty easily, in my opinion. It’s just that they don’t want the decent; good, God-fearing, faithful Christian men who are available for marriage.”

    If the question is “is there any one out there for me”, I think deti’s point is the logic is the same in both places – secular meat market or christian marriage market. It’s not the lack of availability. It’s the lack of desire for what is available.

    Deti can correct this if I am misinterpreting his point.

  67. anonymouslady

    I’ll probably regret chiming in here, but here goes.

    I was sexually assaulted a few years ago — under the letter of the law. I was standing in the hallway of my church waiting for my toddler to finish his drink at the water fountain. While I stood there, eyes on him to make sure he wasn’t putting his mouth on the thingy or whatever, I felt someone full on grab my heinie. I don’t mean a little brush or bump but this guy grabbed a hearty handful that resulted in his fingers being in very personal areas. RIGHT THERE IN THE CHURCH HALLWAY!

    I thought it was my husband, obvi, since he tends to do the butt-grabbing thing whenever it occurs to him, and I whirled around ready to flirtily fuss at him. But it wasn’t him. No sign of him or anyone else other than this man whose name I didn’t even know (I did know his wife). He grinned at me and walked away. I was horrified and angered and felt my skin get all creepy-crawly. I was shaking with — I don’t even know what emotion. Rage, certainly, and I most definitely felt violated and dirty.

    I did not call the police, however. For one, it wasn’t long enough contact to really consider more than the random action of a cad and a roue. It also did me no lasting harm. I’m not psychologically or physically damaged by it, and the primary emotion I have when I think about it is anger/irritation. I wish I’d have had the presence of mind to slap him so hard that his smug grin flew off his face, but yes, I know, that’d be assault, too. Still, I wouldn’t have regretted it.

    I don’t want to minimize other women’s experiences, but it’s not healthy to dwell on things that, in the grand scheme of things, just aren’t that big of a deal. Rape? That’s a big deal. Sexual assault that goes beyond an unwanted momentary grab/grope? Also a big deal. A guy crossing the line of decency briefly? Probably not a big deal for most people. Certainly not worth going to court and pressing charges. Definitely worth a slap, though, imo.

    Anyway. That was my experience. Long story short, if it started consensually and ended consensually, I have no freaking idea why she would ever claim to have been assaulted. If you truly felt violated or assaulted, there’s no way in heck the average woman would continue to do consensual stuff. Back in my dating days, many years ago, if I was kissing a guy and he wanted more, I’d stop everything right away. It wasn’t assault. It was him trying to get as much action as he could, and it was my responsibility to stop him when it got to be more than I was ok with.

    So sorry for the book. I blathered on a lot, I know.

  68. deti

    Catholic divorce rate of 28 percent. That’s ROMAN CATHOLIC.

    Overall US Christian divorce rate of “only” 38 percent.

    Is there anyone here who still thinks the Christian SMP and MMP doesn’t look a whole hell of a lot like the secular one?

  69. imnobody00

    It’s not like we have a 40% illegitimate birth rate because men are eager to buy rings for sluts, after all.

    Alphas (who are the father of these illegitimate children) don’t want to buy rings for sluts. Every beta and omega in America is eager to buy a ring for a slut, but sometimes sluts don’t want to marry these icky betas.

  70. deti

    “It’s not the lack of availability. It’s the lack of desire for what is available.”

    Yes. Good, decent, God-fearing, and Christian man is universally considered to be synonymous with “dweeb” and “dork” and “nerd” and “unattractive” and “creepy” and “ewwwww” , even among Christian women.

  71. Farm Boy

    It’s the lack of desire for what is available.

    There is some truth here.

    From a man’s perspective, many women have little to offer other than their body.

    From a women’s perspective, the guys that might be willing to marry just don’t generate the tingles.

  72. Farm Boy

    sometimes sluts don’t want to marry these icky betas.

    I wonder if they would if their sperm was better…

  73. sunshinemary Post author

    Yanno, on a side note, I don’t believe in calling men alphas or betas. It’s a useful but rough system for categorizing behaviors but to categorize a man like that is not very useful in my opinion. People are way too complex for that.

  74. anonymouslady

    Sorry — Horace is my husband, and I wasn’t aware someone else was using “anonymous.” Will not be commenting again because I would rather not have my name out there. Thanks for the opportunity to post, though.

    [ssm: I hope you don't mind, but I've changed your handle to "anonymouslady" so that no one confuses you with another poster.]

  75. feeriker

    Zippy asked:

    feeriker:
    And you’re going to tell us with a straight face that the “secular meat market” approach (i.e., “dating,” as the secular world calls it) isn’t all-pervasive in the “Christian” community as well?

    Where did she say that?

    Here: I don’t think you realize how often you pretend as if the secular meat market approach to mate finding is applicable to single Christians who are trying to do the right thing.

    Apparently, if a site like Chrstianmingle.com is gaining any traction at all (and since I still see their ads regularly, I assume they’re still in business), then the “secular meat market approach” is apparently both applicable and a-okay in the eyes of a whole lot of “Christians” out there who apparently either aren’t aware of or really don’t care about more scriptural approaches to selecting a mate.

  76. imnobody00

    I don’t believe in calling men alphas or betas. It’s a useful but rough system for categorizing behaviors but to categorize a man like that is not very useful in my opinion. People are way too complex for that. People are way too complex for that.

    This can be applied for any category of human beings, not only alpha or beta. Feminist? Non-feminist? MRA? MGTOW? Republican? Conservative? Liberal? Christian? Slut? Churchian? Traditional wife? Every one of these labels are a simplification. People are way to complex for that.

    Every sentence is a (useful) simplification and generalization. Without simplification and generalization, we won’t be able to speak. Alpha and beta is not different from any other category.

  77. feeriker

    Is there anyone here who still thinks the Christian SMP and MMP doesn’t look a whole hell of a lot like the secular one?

    Obviously some of the regular contributors here do. I’m still not sure what planet they’re gathering their impressions from, but I’d sure like to visit it some day.

  78. deti

    I’m here describing what I see in the real world around me and have seen for the past 35 years I’m been in the SMP and the MMP. I’m telling you what others have told me about their experiences. I’m talking about what real people say and what I’m seeing real people do.

    I get that others may have different experiences or perceptions. Fine. Please, bring your experiences, anecdotes, authority, articles, science, research , anything. Let’s examine it, weight it and evaluate it, and see if it matches up to the authority of scripture and the reality of facts on the ground.

    Bike Bubba said my experience was false; I asked Bike to come forward with facts. He hasn’t yet.

    Zippy accuses me of solipsism.

    Elspeth accuses me of being ‘full of crap’.

    If I’m wrong, show me how I’m wrong.

    If there are other facts, tell me what they are and how I can verify them.

    If there is something I’m missing, tell what it is.

    By all means, set me straight.

    So far, I’ve not seen anything to convince me that I’m wrong.

    Show me. SHOW ME. PROVE IT. Come forward with EVIDENCE. Come forward with authority or articles or science or research or anecdotes and let’s measure them against scripture and what we know to be happening now.

  79. Zippy

    feeriker:
    Your paraphrase pretty much by definition can’t be equivalent to what Elspeth actually said, because the “secular meat market approach” isn’t “doing the right thing”, by definition. She made no claims about pervasiveness of yadda yadda in various communities yadda yadda.

    She made a claim about options for Christian singles who are trying to do the right thing.

  80. deti

    Elspeth:

    Where was this “Christian” SMP and MMP, and why could I not find it?

    Where are these single Christians trying to do the right thing?

    Where are the non-Evangelical American Princesses I keep hearing exist?

    Where are the good, kind, pretty, not fat, nice, and available Christian girls who have their hypergamy in check, with low N, and don’t have ridiculously outrageous standards and who really, truly want a good Christian man?

  81. Artisanal Toad

    From the OP
    If you have sex with a woman to whom you are not married, you are risking an assault charge. It’s as simple as that.

    Digital Video Recording. It isn’t just for porn-stars anymore.

    Promiscuous men should always record their sexcapades without the woman’s knowledge. Make sure she vocally gives her permission at least once during the act. Do your best to get her actively involved (vocally is better- you all know what I mean). Change positions frequently to make sure there is some good video footage of her doing her best imitation of a porn-star. If she has regrets and files charges, publish the video on the internet, print up flyers with her charge against you and the URL for the video and put the flyers everywhere. It’s a simple challenge for the herd: watch the video and decide if it was consensual or not.

    Result: All hell will break loose. To the best of my knowledge, video recording without the other person’s knowledge may or may not be a crime in your jurisdiction. Choose which crime you want to be charged with: rape or video recording. If charged, plead necessity (necessity knows no law) Explain the video was self defense against false charges of rape. Why would a man feel the need to take such a step? QED, baby. QED.

    The goal is to develop as much heat as possible for the accuser and the prosecutors. Yes, this is a rather serious form of slut-shaming, but filing false rape charges is even more serious. The false rape charges won’t stop until there is a penalty for the women who do this and serious shaming is the only thing that gets through to people like that.

    [ssm: I'm very fond of you, AT, and I know your heart is in the right place, but because this is my blog and is attached to my real name, I must point out that I strongly encourage readers not to engage in activities that may be illegal. I stand by my original advice to men: don't have sex with a woman you aren't married to and you are unlikely to have false assault charges filed against you. And my advice to the women stands as well: you can avoid feeling like you've been assaulted by only having sex with a man to whom you are married.]

  82. feeriker

    Where are the good, kind, pretty, not fat, nice, and available Christian girls who have their hypergamy in check, with low N, and don’t have ridiculously outrageous standards and who really, truly want a good Christian man?

    Short (and admittedly simplistic and incomplete) answer: you’ll find them overseas, in countries where not only are true Christian believers a generally oppressed and persecuted minority where living by the Scriptures means everything, but where the culture also upholds and enforces traditional morals and values surrounding relations between the sexes (to include courtship and marriage).

    Here in Norte Amerika, not so much…

  83. deti

    “The goal is to develop as much heat as possible for the accuser and the prosecutors. Yes, this is a rather serious form of slut-shaming, but filing false rape charges is even more serious. The false rape charges won’t stop until there is a penalty for the women who do this and serious shaming is the only thing that gets through to people like that.”

    Nah. Don’t put the video out there. Send the accuser and the prosecutor a copy. Then tell the accuser to publicly recant; and tell the prosecution to back off. Tell the accuser that failure to recant immediately will result in a defamation lawsuit. Tell the prosecutors that if they don’t back off they’ll be met with a lawsuit for malicious prosecution, ethics complaints to the state bar for claims of unethical conduct; and adverse press based on prosecutorial misconduct and overreaching.

  84. Bike Bubba

    Actually, although Christian statistics don’t look very good–my wife was told once that we were one of few couples a friend knew who hadn’t taken each other out for a test drive, so to speak–I’ve processed them (two sample p test), and they are statistically different and better than the population as a whole. I also did this with Arkansas divorce statistics that the Huckabee adminstration provided. Same result.

    Part of the problem is that we’re mixing the statistics–evangelicals, Catholics, and protestant liberals lumped together, nominal Christians mixed with church members, and the like. If you take a look at the statistics for church members in theologically conservative churches, the divorce and unwed pregnancy rates are incredibly low. I’d guess you’d see the same among Catholics who come to mass on days not called “Christmas” and “Easter”.

  85. Cail Corishev

    I think part of what’s going on is that many women are simply flush with power. There used to be a balance: the woman generally had the upper hand sexually because his needs were stronger than hers, but he had the upper hand physically. So she could tease him and play hard-to-get — but only up to a point, because if she pushed him too far, he could overpower her. If she were teasing him with first base and overdid it, he might just take first base anyway, which could be scary for her even though it got nowhere near rape.

    Now that we’ve criminalized all use of physical force by a man against a woman, the man is disarmed, and there’s nothing to stop a woman from outright torturing a man who wants her. She doesn’t have to moderate her teasing or try to take things slow, because at any point whatsoever — even in the middle of the act — she has the power to make him stop and do what she wants (or at least the power to jail him later if he doesn’t). She doesn’t know how to handle that power, and as titillating as she finds the idea, she doesn’t really want complete control over a man, because that’s boring. So she pushes the envelope, going right to the edge of what she’s willing to do, and trying to get some fire out of the guy — who has been spooked by the rape-allegation culture into being passive and letting her lead. As a result she goes farther than she intended and regrets it later, especially when his passivity turns her off.

  86. Farm Boy

    I don’t believe in calling men alphas or betas

    I think that the definition that applies in this discussion is,

    Alphas — generate tingles
    Betas — no tingles

  87. deti

    Bike:

    “I’ve processed them (two sample p test), and they are statistically different and better than the population as a whole.”

    What does this mean? Is this evidence intended to support something? If so, what proposition does this purport to support? Where can I find a “two-sample p test” that supports the claim you are making, and what is a “two sample p test”?

    “I also did this with Arkansas divorce statistics that the Huckabee adminstration provided. Same result.”

    LInks? Paper? Research? Citation, please. Title, author, page number and volume, please.

  88. deti

    “Part of the problem is that we’re mixing the statistics–evangelicals, Catholics, and protestant liberals lumped together, nominal Christians mixed with church members, and the like. If you take a look at the statistics for church members in theologically conservative churches, the divorce and unwed pregnancy rates are incredibly low. I’d guess you’d see the same among Catholics who come to mass on days not called “Christmas” and “Easter”.”

    Citation, please. Title, author, page number and volume, please.

  89. Zippy

    deti:
    It looks to me like your view is a caricature of one narrow aspect of reality. As a caricature there is some truth in it. But nobody should mistake a caricature for an accurate description of reality.

  90. Bike Bubba

    “Where are the non-Evangelical American Princesses I keep hearing exist? ”

    Deti, you state brilliantly what I’m getting at with mixing the statistics for various denominations. I grew up United Methodist, and though divorce wasn’t a “good thing”, and the pastor would counsel couples to try and hold things together, neither was it a deal-killer for membership. Same thing with premarital fornication, public drunkenness, and the like. Yes, John Wesley would be spinning in his grave if it were possible.

    I grew up, got saved, started to attend evangelical and fundamental churches, and what I found is a far lower divorce rate, far lower rates of premarital sex, and if someone did get divorced, the congregation would vote them out of membership. If one desires the benefits of Biblical teaching in this area, it helps if your church consistently teaches the Bible, no?

  91. Bike Bubba

    Deti; first stat was about what percentage of young people make it to marriage with their virginity. Evangelicals, about 20%, non-evangelicals, about 10%. Go to samples of hundreds of thousands of people, that’s a statistically significant difference. A lot of the “abstinence doesn’t work” studies had the same result–one paper (MN test) didn’t even bother to attempt a control or statistical test.

    Second example was about the divorce rate in Arkansas, which was something like 6.5/1000 adults, whereas in New England it is about 4/1000 adults. What wasn’t mentioned is that the marriage rate in Arkansas, at 16/1000, is twice the marriage rate in New England. So the actual divorce rate in divorces per 1000 married couples is higher in (liberal, secular) New England than it is in the Bible Belt.

    Yeah, shame on the guys who totally misrepresented the nature of the stats. As Disraeli noted, “Lies, damned lies, and statistics.” I think I’ve given you enough information to get started. Don’t have specific links handy at this point–knowing this stuff isn’t my job, after all.

  92. Elspeth

    Your paraphrase pretty much by definition can’t be equivalent to what Elspeth actually said, because the “secular meat market approach” isn’t “doing the right thing”, by definition. She made no claims about pervasiveness of yadda yadda in various communities yadda yadda.

    She made a claim about options for Christian singles who are trying to do the right thing.

    Sounds so good when Zippy says it that I didn’t see the point in formulating my own response to Freeriker and Deti..

    Thank you Zippy.

  93. Bike Bubba

    Cail, if the guy is in a Bible-believing church, he is not disarmed. Any good church will have, and use, a church discipline process explained in Matthew 18.

  94. deti

    “It looks to me like your view is a caricature of one narrow aspect of reality. As a caricature there is some truth in it. But nobody should mistake a caricature for an accurate description of reality.”

    My invitation is especially for you, Zippy. If you have facts, let’s see them. If you have evidence, articles, anecdotes, authorities, research, let’s see it. “Come, let us reason together”. Let me examine your evidence, whatever it is, in the light of scripture, tradition, reason and experience, and let’s see how it stacks up.

    I’m listening.

    [ssm: Well, let's see yours. Come on, where is YOUR evidence, articles, authorities, and research about anything you've written today? We're all just trying to describe the reality we see here. We're trying to figure out what could explain what we see going on around us.]

  95. feeriker

    Bike Bubba said: Deti, you state brilliantly what I’m getting at with mixing the statistics for various denominations. I grew up United Methodist, and though divorce wasn’t a “good thing”, and the pastor would counsel couples to try and hold things together, neither was it a deal-killer for membership. Same thing with premarital fornication, public drunkenness, and the like. Yes, John Wesley would be spinning in his grave if it were possible.

    So lemme see if I understand you correctly here. We can’t just look at “Christians” as one single group (i.e., people who believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, who accept him as such and as their Lord and Savior, worship him as such, and adhere to the precepts of the Bible that support such).

    No, we have to subdivide Christians into man-made subcategories (i.e, “denominations”) so that we can cherry-pick the statistics that apply to the argument under discussion.

    Good grief… [*facepalm*][*head smash against the edge of desk*]

  96. deti

    Bike, 10/1/13, 2:34

    Citation please. Title, author, volume and page number, please.

    [ssm: You know who else talks like this? Come on, guess who I'm thinking of.]

  97. feeriker

    Any good church will have, and use, a church discipline process explained in Matthew 18.

    And, as some of us here have pointed out ad nauseum, best of luck in finding any such church in any neighborhood near you.

  98. deti

    I still would like to know where these “single Christians trying to do the right thing” are.

    I still would like to know where the Christian SMP is that is markedly different from the secular SMP.

    I still would like to know where the good, sweet, nice, non-fat, available, pretty, low-N, hypergamy in check women were, or are, or might be.

    Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Anyone?

  99. redpillsetmefree

    As usual Deti is completely on point.
    there are some around here who hate it when I use humor or absurdity to demonstrate points that every single man posting on this board knows are true.

    Attractive men can hit on women. Unattractive men cannot.
    Attractive men can get away with a whole hell of a lot more than unattractive men.

    Whether or not something is “assault” or “rape” or “harassment” is based in no small part on how attractive the man is.

    Attractive man = prospect. Beta man = perpetrator.
    Attractive alpha husband showing dominance = sexy, turn on.
    Beta husband attempting to show dominance = creepy, violent, weird, rapist.

    100% agree. This is something that boys have to learn as early as junior high school.

  100. Elspeth

    So lemme see if I understand you correctly here. We can’t just look at “Christians” as one single group (i.e., people who believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, who accept him as such and as their Lord and Savior, worship him as such, and adhere to the precepts of the Bible that support such).

    Sadly freeriker, you never could just look at the category “Christian” and use that as the sole metric. Knowing the tree by its fruit and all that. Saying you’re a Christian in the West is the equivalent (almost) of an Israeli saying they’re a Jew even though we know that Israel is an extremely secular culture with few practicing Orthodox Judaism.

    Even in the NT Paul writes about “Christians” who turned out to never have been Christians at all. This is nothing new. So NO, you can’t just go by the fact that the person self-identifies as Christian. Not in America, you can’t.

    Didn’t we just have a whole thread about people born with XY while claiming to truly be XX and vice versa? The human heart is desperately warped. Judge by the fruit.

  101. RichardP

    “Karey told authorities that a week earlier he’d found text messages from his wife to the pastor. He believed, Mancuso said, that they were having sex and he confronted his wife. Days after the confrontation, Karey’s wife filed the police report accusing the pastor of rape, Mancuso said.”

    Fooling around until caught. Get caught, cry “rape”.

    Two days after his wife filed rape charges, Karey shot his wife’s “friend” dead.
    http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/01/us/louisiana-pastor-killed/

    The script must be in the genes. Script followed exactly as has been discussed around here many times.

  102. RichardP

    @Elspeth: “The human heart is desperately warped. Judge by the fruit.”

    See my previous post.

  103. Velvet

    deti – I’ve found myself agreeing with you like three different times in the last few weeks, so I’m guessing the apocalypse is at hand, but I don’t get your ultimate point.

    Men want women who are docile and pure. +1 each for pretty, fertile, skilled at homemaking, and relatively healthy and of average intelligence

    Women want men who are dominant and sure. +1 each for handsome, fertile, upwardly mobile, and free from baggage of prior N.

    You seem to be saying women are not those things, ever, and that men should not be expected be those things, ever. I’m not suggesting that men muamts, that’s a whole separate argument, but that men who want women other than sluts are going to have to bring their part, too. You suggest that men should expect the choicest of women, simply because the offer of marriage has been extended, without any sort of qualification, much less reciprocity. Marriage, in the civil context, is an exchange of resources, first and foremost. While I realize men effectively die to their wives, genetically, by staking their claim on them, there’s no small forfeiture of resources on the womans behalf. She actually bears the physical burden of death for his expression of fertility. If we’re talking about an exchange of life-blood, here, why should a woman’s standards be anything but quite high? Why should her fathers standards, after he has invested in her, be anything but exceedingly high?

    Marriage has degenerated into a “celebration of love” for all kinds of culturally debaucherous reasons, but how is muamts any different than wuam the first offer who comes along? This would seem to contradict your assertion that permanent marriage is a failure for any couple for whom tingles are not immediately and profoundly present (which, by the way, lots of arranged and otherwise happily married couples will dispute).

    I’m seeing lots of contradictions in your logic, which makes it increasingly difficult to follow.

  104. Bike Bubba

    What Elspeth says, Feeriker. Ever since our Lord came, there have been those who gladly took the name “Christian”, but when the “fit hit the shan”, they were gone. Hence the need to discern between Christians who show up for service and those who don’t, the need to distinguish between churches that teach the Bible and those that don’t, etc..

    Deti; what our gracious hostess says, but also, there are obscure sources on a place called the “Internet” called “Google” and “Wikipedia” that will allow you to look up things like I’ve mentioned. So if you can find your way to the “Internet”, you just might be able to figure it out for yourself. Think you can get there? Good, then here’s a link:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binomial_proportion_confidence_interval

  105. feeriker

    @Elspeth:

    Even in the NT Paul writes about “Christians” who turned out to never have been Christians at all. This is nothing new. So NO, you can’t just go by the fact that the person self-identifies as Christian. Not in America, you can’t.

    Uh huh. So, if I read you and Bike correctly here… If I (or anyone else) “self-identify” as [fill in denomination name nowhere referenced in scripture here], then I’m automatically a “Christian” – as long as I’m a member of a denomination that you (or whoever else is setting the criteria for discussion) belong to. Everyone else who is of a different denomination is just a heretic, plain and simple, and can’t be counted as “Christian” (by whatever arbitrary criteria set) for the purposes of the discussion at hand.

    Hopefully you and Bike can both see the flaw in that position without my having to add my usual preferred sarcasm tags to the post.

    That aside, the point I was trying to make in my last post in response to Bike is that it’s awfully convenient to cherry-pick statistics that focus on one denomination to the exclusion of all others in support of your argument . In Bike’s case, he chose, conveniently, to cite (unreferenced and uncorroborated) statistics applicable only to, from what I could gather, his own denomination, knowing that to include denominations like the UMC of his upbringing in his statistics would produce a result other than what his agenda mandates. Far more experienced and prominent men than he have done this, but usually with much more finesse. Bike’s example was just a wee bit too obvious and amateurish.

  106. feeriker

    Deti; what our gracious hostess says, but also, there are obscure sources on a place called the “Internet” called “Google” and “Wikipedia” that will allow you to look up things like I’ve mentioned. So if you can find your way to the “Internet”, you just might be able to figure it out for yourself.

    Hamsterlation: I have nothing that can be considered “authoritative” sources, by even the most elastic definition of the term, for my assertions, so I’m just going to default to condescending ad hominem attacks on those who ask me to simply put my facts where my pen is.

  107. Elspeth

    We’re non-denominational, LOL.

    I made a point of quoting Jesus not once, but twice in my comment:

    You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

    Unrepentant fornicators, continuing serial monogamists, divorcees who remarry before their husband is dead?

    Judge by fruit. That is all I am saying.

  108. Suzanne

    Hello Sunshine Mary

    A new reader here and I’ll be upfront, I saw one of your articles on GOMI and followed the link to your website. Please may I ask a question as I’m having a hard time understanding the rationale behind the following statement: “It goes without saying that marital rape is not even a thing. Consent was given when she said, “I do.” Marital rape laws are a new thing in human history, only a decade or two old in some states. They should be repealed”? . Please consider the following scenario no doubt familiar to many married females: physically abusive husband comes home drunk, punches the crap out of their wife and then, maybe when she is half unconscious, violently and anally rapes her causing severe internal injuries. Extreme example but it happens, please don’t deny that it does. Is this ok with you, does this sits quite comfortably with your moral compass?

  109. Farm Boy

    Karey told authorities that a week earlier he’d found text messages from his wife to the pastor

    When I rape a woman, I always have a text conversation with her first. Doesn’t everybody?

  110. Farm Boy

    Part of the “data problem” is that many of the statistics and analyses of statistics do not exist for the assertions made here. This is not an accident, it is by design.

  111. Bike Bubba

    Feeriker; absolutely wrong. What I’m getting at is that there are factors which are indicative of other factors we’re looking for. In this case, “evangelical” and “church member” are indicative of “someone who takes the Bible seriously enough to give up their time.” Hypothesis to test; is the behavior of those who take their faith seriously different than that of those who either have no faith or those who don’t take their faith seriously? Answer; IMO, unequivocally yes.

    Deti; if you’re motivated, you can ask Dalrock for his list of churches that practice church discipline in these matters and formulate your own experiment. My experience suggests you’re going to find that they don’t get too many cases where a member is disfellowshipped for divorce or other sexual sin. The pastor will not tell you exactly how many people he’s counseled, as that’s a privacy and legal issue, but he might even give you an idea of the rate at which people repent when confronted per Matthew 18.

    Or if you’re not motivated, you can continue to abuse people like Elspeth and myself. In respose, I’ll infer something about your character.

  112. Farm Boy

    By rape, I of course mean “eye-rape”, not the Whoopi Goldberg defined rape-rape.

    Is there a fella living who is not guilty of “eye-rape”?

  113. Zippy

    SSM:
    We’re all just trying to describe the reality we see here. We’re trying to figure out what could explain what we see going on around us.

    Indeed. When Deti says “I’m listening”, what he appears to actually mean is “I’m not listening”. I’ve seen quite a few commenters in the last year or so suggest that, while he does have a point, they are not seeing the extreme caricature he expresses.

    But that never registers, at least as far as I have seen. Thus my conclusion that he – or at least his narrative – suffers from a form of what the manosphere (inaccurately, but that was a whole ‘nother discussion) calls “solipsism.”

  114. Elspeth

    Part of the “data problem” is that many of the statistics and analyses of statistics do not exist for the assertions made here.

    Yep Farm Boy. I was thinking the same thing. There is no data to mine for this one. My eyewitness accounts of the behavior of churchian people points much towards what Deti has to say.

    But the fact of the matter is that for that minority of church going Christian singles who are trying to do the right thing (this includes attractive young women besides my own kids), it’s pretty hard to meet up with like-minded marriageable young men of like faith.

    Or am I the only one who noticed that most of the men in church these days are married and/or older (like middle aged)?

  115. Velvet

    Please consider the following scenario no doubt familiar to many married females

    That’s just the thing, it’s not familiar to virtually any married female. We’re called wives, by the way. In general a man who bothers to marry a woman is interested in a willing and enthusiastic partner, even in an inebriated state. You’ll have to do better than Burning Bed theatrical anecdotes, here.

    [ssm: Well-said; we were typing our responses to her at the same time.

    By the way, I've added you to my blogroll under DOMESTIC ARTS, FEMININITY, MOTHERING, MARRIAGE - CHRISTIAN]

  116. sunshinemary Post author

    Please consider the following scenario no doubt familiar to many married females: physically abusive husband comes home drunk, punches the crap out of their wife and then, maybe when she is half unconscious, violently and anally rapes her causing severe internal injuries. Extreme example but it happens, please don’t deny that it does. Is this ok with you, does this sits quite comfortably with your moral compass?

    Familiar to many married females?

    Hmm, no, I can’t say I’m familiar with this. Elspeth? Saint Velvet? Margery? Maeve? Cranberry? Tempest? Other ladies? Does your husband ever come home drunk, punch the crap out of you and then, while you are half unconscious, violently and anally rape you causing severe internal injuries?

    In fact, I’ve never known of this happening to anyone.

    But for those *very few* women who have had this happen to them, assault laws cover them quite well.

  117. deti

    Bike:

    So, let me get this straight.

    Accurately representing your views on marital rape and asking you to support your factual statistical assertions with evidence and with citations to original sources is “abuse”.

    Being skeptical of Elspeth’s claim and pointing out that her experience is different from mine is “abuse”.

    Got it.

  118. Elspeth

    Velvet (whose new blog is awesome, check it out!) responded quite well to Suzanne.

    I actually know quite intimately two women who were married to abusive men and of all their stories, never once did they say their husbands forced themselves onto them. Not even once.

    But as Sunshine notedd, there are laws on the books for dealing with violent assaults against your wife or anyone else without dragging “rape” into it. Marital sex is by definition not rape.

    Is this such a hard concept to grasp? Or is it just that we don’t believe that marriage vows indicate sexual consent for the duration of the marriage (leaving aside extreme or hardship scenarios)?

  119. Opus

    Recently in England The Court of Appeal ruled that even though a man is married, and even though he is having sex with his wife consensually (the fact that they are married is not of course consent) he may nevertheless be guilty of Rape should he fail to withdraw at her last-minute say so. What the learned Justices (aka pussy-whipped Aging Manginas) seem to be suggesting is that the husband should act like Ron Jeremy or Rocco Siffredi and come all over her face. Thus marital sex is now indistinguishable from a porn movie.

    I agree with SSM that the problem is promiscuity outside of marriage and that women have great difficulty in dealing with the same, which is why myself and a friend of mine have both received threats from young single women that our actions would result in their reporting the matters to the police. In fact I doubt that any male who has had more than a few encounters romantically with women can have long escaped that sort of threat.

    I am thus reminded of Don Giovanni: Donna Elvira thinks that because alpha male Giovanni has had sex with her he should promptly marry her; whereas prick-teaser Donna Anna (who thinks her father should save her honour by fighting Giovanni) thinks that she has been raped.

    Internet Scribe Henry Makow explains the problem simply. He avers that the reason women think they are being raped is because they are not getting love.

  120. feeriker

    Feeriker; absolutely wrong. What I’m getting at is that there are factors which are indicative of other factors we’re looking for. In this case, “evangelical” and “church member” are indicative of “someone who takes the Bible seriously enough to give up their time.” Hypothesis to test; is the behavior of those who take their faith seriously different than that of those who either have no faith or those who don’t take their faith seriously? Answer; IMO, unequivocally yes.

    Sorry, but I know MANY people who label themselves “evangelical” and “church member” who wouldn’t know the contents of their Bibles from the contents of Marx’s “Das Kapital.”

    You’ll have to do much better than hang your assertions on self-conferred labels and pay more attention to what people actually do (hint: it’s very often the polar opposite of what they say. Some call it “hypocrisy,” but I’d like to be a little kinder than that.)

  121. deti

    SSM:

    “We’re all just trying to describe the reality we see here. We’re trying to figure out what could explain what we see going on around us.”

    I’ve proffered my explanation. I’ve used theory of Game, sociosexual observation, anecdote, and my experience and the experience of others to “describe the reality [I] see here” and in “trying to figure out what [I] see going on around [me].”

    What do you think? How do you describe the reality you see? What is that reality? What do you think explains what you see going on around you? And what is going on around you? Is it the same thing I see, and dannyfrom504 sees, and fee sees, and others see?

  122. feeriker

    Opus said: Recently in England The Court of Appeal ruled that even though a man is married, and even though he is having sex with his wife consensually (the fact that they are married is not of course consent) he may nevertheless be guilty of Rape should he fail to withdraw at her last-minute say so. What the learned Justices (aka pussy-whipped Aging Manginas) seem to be suggesting is that the husband should act like Ron Jeremy or Rocco Siffredi and come all over her face. Thus marital sex is now indistinguishable from a porn movie.

    Dare one ask what the Anglican Church’s reaction to this is?

    Wait, don’t answer that, it was rhetorical question. I know the answer already.

  123. Cail Corishev

    Cail, if the guy is in a Bible-believing church, he is not disarmed. Any good church will have, and use, a church discipline process explained in Matthew 18.

    I’m not aware of any church that (in this life) can override the judgment of the court if a man is accused of sexual assault.

  124. feeriker

    Cail, if the guy is in a Bible-believing church, he is not disarmed. Any good church will have, and use, a church discipline process explained in Matthew 18.

    I’m not aware of any church that (in this life) can override the judgment of the court if a man is accused of sexual assault.

    Or that can overturn a temporal government court’s judgment in favor of a wife’s frivorce of her husband, or the alienation and kidnapping of his children, or the theft of his money and property, or her remarriage under adulterous conditions to another man, or [ad infinitem]…

  125. Carlotta

    More whining.
    Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. You got me.
    You know it doesn’t help anything when the captain of the ship just keeps randomly throwing the people helping him row off the ship.

  126. Cail Corishev

    But the fact of the matter is that for that minority of church going Christian singles who are trying to do the right thing (this includes attractive young women besides my own kids), it’s pretty hard to meet up with like-minded marriageable young men of like faith.

    I think that’s true, because both are rare, so it will be hard for them to find each other. However, the situation is still different. The good Christian girl who is determined to stay chaste and find an equally devout husband will still have lots of interest from men, if she’s halfway attractive. Most of them may not be up to her standards, but at least she gets approached. She will attract suitors, and will get to decide if they’re right for her.

    The good Christian boy, on the other hand, if he has no game — even if he has a good job, car, etc. — feel like he’s in the desert. It’s not just that he can’t find a good girl; he can’t even get a date with a bad one. He’s not afraid he’s going to have to settle; he’s afraid he’s going to live and die alone.

    Is it whining to say it’s worse for boys than for girls, even in good Christian circles? Maybe. It kinda feels like it. But I think that’s where some of the frustration comes from: the Christian marriage market may be separate from the secular sexual/marriage market to some extent, but it’s also part of it, so it parallels it in the current imbalance of power between single men and single women. Saying, “But we’re talking about devout Christian circles here,” doesn’t change the overall picture that much, unfortunately.

  127. deti

    Velvet, 3:00 pm

    If you want me to say NAWALT, fine. I’ll say it. Not all women are like that. The problem is, however, that there are enough women “like that” to make it a problem.

    At no time did I ever say that all women everywhere are no good awful, terrible, horrible very bad people. And at no time did I ever say men are entitled to the women of their choice. (BELIEVE me, most men long ago jettisoned the idea that they would EVER marry Angelina Jolie or Megan Fox. Most men are disabused of such notions by the time they are high school freshmen.)

    If you can point to anywhere where I said such things, cite to them.

    A woman can set her standards just as high as she would like to. If she can find a man who’s willing to pay her price, great. The problem is that most women’s standards are obscenely high, stratospherically high, ridiculously high. Most women have overestimated their value because they can garner short term attention from top men, but cannot secure commitment.

    If you want me to say there are a lot of unattractive men out there, fine. I’ll say that too. Point conceded. Most men are unattractive. I’m one of them. I’m overweight, I’m bald, I work too hard, I don’t get enough exercise. I hold two advanced higher education degrees, one of which is from a top tier public university. I’ve been married 17 years, I’m a Christian, and I work as a white collar professional earning a decent six figure salary. I purchased a 3100 sq ft house for myself, my wife and 2 kids three years ago. Before that we lived in a smaller house in a different city. This society says I’m an unattractive beta chump. This society says the goods I bring don’t cut the mustard. I’m not good enough; I don’t qualify as “alpha”. That doesn’t bring the tingle. Millions on millions of men are in the same boat.

    What is “muamts” and “wuam”?

  128. Elspeth

    @ velvet:

    Your comment at 3:00 was superb. I missed it before, but it’s well put. I know that SAM’s standards are quite high for whom he will allow to court his daughters, and he’ll gladly keep them right here with him rather than give them away to someone he deems unworthy.

    I trust him implicitly, but I often wonder if he realizes how few men are as awesome as he is and will take this into consideration when the time comes.

  129. Elspeth

    This society says I’m an unattractive beta chump. This society says the goods I bring don’t cut the mustard. I’m not good enough; I don’t qualify as “alpha”. That doesn’t bring the tingle. Millions on millions of men are in the same boat.

    It never did bring the tingle, but it would have been more than enough to make most women happy and content with marrying you 60 years ago. The push toward romantic love as the standard for marital bliss has corrupted the entire marriage “market”, if you will.

    Further, I don’t think Velvet was insinuating that women hold out for sufficient tingles when she mentioned high standards. I’m fairly certain that she wasn’t, in fact.

    And I’m sure you weren’t bald and overweight 17 years ago, LOL. Leave that out of it, especially since you’re not on the marriage market. You only need to satisfy one woman, who has already chosen you. That should be a relief.

  130. Bike Bubba

    Deti; maybe you’d do well to take a look at the argument seriously. You commented that in your apparently non-evangelical world, the church looks like the world. I pointed out that in my evangelical world, I don’t see many church members divorcing or getting pregnant out of wedlock. OK, so with all those advanced degrees, maybe you can come to a synthesis?

    Here are some stats that back me up regarding divorce, BTW. Divorce among evangelicals and Catholics is startlinly lower than among the rest of the populace. Worst rates are among those who profess, but don’t bother to even warm a pew.

    http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2012/09/25/factchecker-divorce-rate-among-christians/

    http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/religion/2011-03-14-divorce-christians_N.htm

    http://www.christianitytoday.com/edstetzer/2012/september/pastors-that-divorce-rate-stat-you-quoted-was-probably.html

  131. an observer

    women think they are being raped is because they are not getting love.

    Exhibit 1: Female logic

    Women wish to receive affirmation and validation from high value men as it reinforces their false positive self-view

    Women are unhappy because they feel they have missed out on affirmation and validation from the very highest value of men.

    Women are unhappy because the affirmation and validation from assortative mates (aka beta orbiters) is heavily discounted as invalid, and used as a stopgap whilst they seek attention from the few men they tingle for.

    Women are unhappy and demand retributive justice when their idolised self- view is threatened by interactions with the majority of non-alpha men.

    Sounds like its time to cease interacting with women altogether as too much of a risk. Pregnant women are now selling false positive pregnancy tests for whatever use these harpies see fit.

    Let them raise cats.

  132. deti

    Elspeth:

    Let me describe myself when I was 26 and on the marriage market.

    I was 26. I was balding with my hair mostly gone. I was about 20 pounds overweight and didn’t get a lot of exercise. My hobbies were stereo equipment and doing local community theater productions. I had graduated from college and grad school and was in my first full time job, earning $45,000 per year in 1994 in a small Midwestern city. I was a young single man, and was a member of a small mainline protestant church with an average congregant age of about 61.

    My blue pill parents, teachers, pastors and other adults in my life called that Great Catch and Will Make Women Swoon.

    This society and red pill thought calls that Unattractive Beta Chump.

  133. deti

    Fifty-something women trying to play yenta called that “Great Catch”.

    Single women in the church called it “Ewwwww GET AWAY FROM ME OMIGODOMIGOD”

  134. Bike Bubba

    “Sorry, but I know MANY people who label themselves “evangelical” and “church member” who wouldn’t know the contents of their Bibles from the contents of Marx’s “Das Kapital.” ”

    Actually, Feeriker, that’s exactly my point. Let’s assume this person; are we to believe that someone incapable of distinguishing Christ from Marx has been spending much time with his Bible or listening to sermons based on the same? We would expect that this person would have more of the sociological tendencies of the secular person, rather than those of the person who can cite chapter and verse,no?

  135. an observer

    Please consider the following scenario no doubt familiar to many married males: emotionally manipulative wife comes home drunk on power, forcibly evicts the husband from his childrens lives and then, when he is broke and living in a one bed flat, violently financially rapes him on a monthly basis untl the kids are finished college. Extreme example but it happens, please don’t deny that it does. Is this ok with you, does this sit quite comfortably with your moral compass?

    FIFY.

    [ssm: Hey! Where've you been? :)]

  136. sunshinemary Post author

    Single women in the church called it “Ewwwww GET AWAY FROM ME OMIGODOMIGOD

    Oh, puh-lease. You’ve been commenting here for awhile and I have never gotten the sense that you were lacking in female attention before you married. I think this is a ploy for sympathy. And I notice that, for all your kvetching about women, you’ve never been frivorced. The only person who’s ever threatened divorce in your marriage is…you. And when you did, she fell in line.

    It’s strange how your particular life story doesn’t really match up with your complaints. What exactly are you complaining about?

  137. Maeve

    Suzanne,
    Not only is your example not something most wives are familiar with, but it is also smells of a red herring. Any woman who lives with that sort of violence in her home most likely has far bigger worries than whether or not her husband is going to come home and ass rape her.

    Elspeth has actually phrased the issue in what I think is the best frame I’ve heard yet: “marriage vows indicate sexual consent for the duration of the marriage”. In this light, there’s not really a case for rape. Yes…there will be TIMES when one is not up for it or one is sick, blah… blah… blah…

    The point is, if one approaches marriage from the standpoint of “I consent to you”, then the issue of consent has been taken dealt with.

    Oh, and I’d also like to add, I’d be willing to wager a pretty penny that the gentlemen who frequent these environs would be revolted by the conduct you described and would be some of the first to repudiate an individual who would so clearly be in violation of his own vows to provide for and protect his wife. Last I checked, no wedding vows included a special rider for assault & battery against the beloved.

    (Yes, I’m really posting this – not some pod person who took over my body)

  138. Opus

    I have just read Artisanal Toad’s well meaning advice that one should and without the woman’s knowledge video-tape the encounter. This may be good advice where you are but it will end in a custodial sentence here in England. A guy – a producer at the BBC had taped (from a hidden ceiling camera – so you can imagine just how unerotic that was) and unknown to them his encounters with certain slutty but willing females. To cut a long story short he is now serving a three year term of imprisonment for doing so, his career and reputation ruined – he is creepy – but at least it is not Rape.

    Of course had any of those women gone home and completed their latest ‘Dear Diary’ entry retelling the sordid encounter this would have been entirely legal.

    I really like Deti’s comment at 11.53 above.

  139. javaloco

    Bike Bubba: And yes, Javaloco, forcible rape is forcible and therefore brutal. This basic fact undermines my point exactly how?

    Your argument is undermined by going to the extreme. You use a reprehensible, if taken objectively, scenario. Who would ever disagree that a man should not bring harm to his wife? But, I point you back to the article. Rape/victimization/brutality are all being reframed to mean whatever a woman wants it to mean.

    I am opposed to marital rape laws because of this very situation. That said, having experienced it for the majority of my 20 year marriage, I’d leave a refusing wife cold, emotionally speaking.

  140. deti

    SSM:

    I’m just describing part of an incident that actually happened to me. Just describing facts. You can choose not to believe it if you want. I was there and saw it.

    I’m a lot less worried about me than I am about the young men who have it even worse than me. I’m more concerned about my seven year old son, who by the time he comes into this SMP in about 10 years or so is going to have to have Game so tight you can bounce a quarter off it. And he’ll have to learn to do without sex for extended periods of time.

    I’m still listening and waiting for anyone else to come forward with anecdotes, articles, treatises, authority to refute what I’ve said. Anything. Anything at all.

    But I can see that neither my anecdotes and my cordial request for authority are well received today, so I’m just going to leave it alone.

  141. Lee Lee Bug

    @Deti,

    I never figured you for a community theater buff. My daughters and I perform in local productions (usually musicals and Christmas shows). You should try to get back into it, maybe with your children if they have the inclination. It’s great fun and it’s easier for men to snag roles than women.

  142. Lee Lee Bug

    @Deti,

    I meant to add that you seem to have a dramatic flair that would work well on stage.

  143. earl

    “I think that the definition that applies in this discussion is,

    Alphas — generate tingles
    Betas — no tingles”

    I got a better definition.

    Alphas….movers and shakers
    Betas…want to be moved and shaked

  144. Zippy

    Deti:
    I can’t speak for any of the other men reading, but my own reaction to your constant self-emasculation through Oprahtastic TMI anecdote is definitely not an impulse to imitate, as a way of “proving” some point. Watch what you catch in your filters.

    I don’t know if the world has decided that you are a beta chump; but it certainly seems that you have.

  145. Calliso

    Suzanne while I agree with you marital rape is a real problem, I agree with the others that your scenario isn’t something familiar to most wives. I know such things happen, but such extreme examples are rare. Not something that most wives would be familiar with.

  146. feeriker

    “Sorry, but I know MANY people who label themselves “evangelical” and “church member” who wouldn’t know the contents of their Bibles from the contents of Marx’s “Das Kapital.”

    Actually, Feeriker, that’s exactly my point. Let’s assume this person; are we to believe that someone incapable of distinguishing Christ from Marx has been spending much time with his Bible or listening to sermons based on the same? We would expect that this person would have more of the sociological tendencies of the secular person, rather than those of the person who can cite chapter and verse,no?

    Actually, you just proved MY point: if this person who calls themselves an “evangelical Christian” truly doesn’t know his Bible from “Das Kapital,” of exactly what value is this “evangelical church-goer” label in which you seem to put such tremendous stock? It would seem that the stark polarity between what this person professes to believe in and what he actually believes in renders the label rather meaningless, no?

    To bring this back to topic, why should I believe, based on my own experience that tells me that the type of “evangelical church-goer” I mention in my example is MUCH more common than most evangelicals are comfortable admitting, that such bodies consist of couples whose marriages are any more stable than those of the “heretical” (i.e., non-evangelical) churches and non-believers? (By the way, visit any random small town or medium-sized city in the middle of America’s “Bible belt” for a few days, meet some random folks, and poll them as to how many of them attend church regularly. Then ask those who do attend church regularly about their marital status. I guarantee you that the number who are divorced and/or on their second or third marriage will come as a very unpleasant, bubble-bursting surprise to you).

    Bottom line: your statistics and examples are based on YOUR own personal experiences within one small congregation within one small subset of the Christian church. Needless to say, there’s certainly nothing wrong with forming your opinions based on your own experience. Quite frankly, I’m overjoyed to hear that the members of your congregation consist in the majority of happily-married couples. Seriously, if only there were many, MANY more such congregations in America today, if more churches found their way back to the Biblical marriage model and mentored and shepherded the young men and women of their congregations in that direction (with sanctions where necessary), I would feel at least a twinge of optimism about the church’s future. Unfortunately, my own experiences in a number of churches, evangelical and non-, in all corners of America tells me that your church is that rare and precious exception to the rule, albeit it a very fortunate one in this one regard.

  147. Bike Bubba

    “”I’m not aware of any church that (in this life) can override the judgment of the court if a man is accused of sexual assault.””

    “Or that can overturn a temporal government court’s judgment in favor of a wife’s frivorce of her husband, or the alienation and kidnapping of his children, or the theft of his money and property, or her remarriage under adulterous conditions to another man, or [ad infinitem”

    The church cannot generally override the judgment of a court, but it can tell a wayward member (or even frequent attender) that her (his) behavior is not Biblical, and that she (he) will be excommunicated if the behavior persists.

    For that matter, the church also needs to speak out in the (I hope rare) cases Suzanne describes. Drunkenness, violence, forcible sodomy? Having been a deacon, I’m pretty sure there are deacon boards out there that have the guts to deal with that. And yes, we’d encourage the raped to file a complaint with the police, too.

  148. Jason

    You hit on the basic problem quite well SSM. We live in a culture that is encouraging women to be promiscuous and at that same time refuses to acknowledge the idea of bad and in satisfying sex. So you end up with this whole insanity like “all non consensual touching is sexual assault”. I’m assuming she wouldn’t be willing to apply this standard to men.

    The stupid part in all this lunacy is that it makes rape a trivial crime that doesn’t really matter. If you can “sexually assault” a women for a little while and then go back to not sexually assaulting her, and she goes along with it, then how big a deal can it possibly be? If you can “rape” a woman on one date and then she goes on several more with you and has consensual sex on those how serious a crime can rape be?

    This isn’t to say rape isn’t a serious crime warranting punishment, it is, but confining to expand and water down the definition will insure that all of it is going to tend to be treated as the most minor variety.

    Also marital rape is impossible. Assaulting your wife or husband is possible but she has consented to sex when she got married. If she isn’t willing to honour the contract then she should leave and leave without stealing everything not nailed down. That we entertain such a ludicrous concept says just how trivialised the concept of rape has become.

  149. Bike Bubba

    Feeriker, the data are in–see my links–and those who have gone door to door in the Bible Belt find out what I did when I reviewed the Arkansas data. Evangelicals are actually less likely to divorce than the population as a whole. The guy who cannot discern Christ from Marx is not a committed evangelical, but is rather a nominal Christian whose Bible mostly collects dust.

    Javaloco, I was pointing out that there is such a thing as marital rape. I was not asserting that every case of “sexual assault” asserted by a feminist qualifies as such. Hence the word “brutality” refers to the very real brutality of rape, and my argument is in no way impaired.

  150. Lee Lee Bug

    @deti
    ’m overweight, I’m bald, I work too hard, I don’t get enough exercise. I hold two advanced higher education degrees, one of which is from a top tier public university. I’ve been married 17 years, I’m a Christian, and I work as a white collar professional earning a decent six figure salary. I purchased a 3100 sq ft house for myself, my wife and 2 kids three years ago. Before that we lived in a smaller house in a different city. This society says I’m an unattractive beta chump. This society says the goods I bring don’t cut the mustard. I’m not good enough; I don’t qualify as “alpha”. That doesn’t bring the tingle. Millions on millions of men are in the same boat.

    Maybe you have a self-perception problem. Look at Danny 504. He’s bald. He’s short. He appears to be a bit chubby. He doesn’t even own a home. But he doesn’t seem to have a problem attracting ladies —- lots of ladies, including very beautiful ones. It seems like his self-confidence overrides any of his shortcomings.

    I have young male coworkers like Danny. They’re barely scrapping by financially and they look kind of scrappy, but they go from one woman to the the next and most of their girlfriends are reasonably attractive and treat them well. They’re a bit cocky and it seems to work in their favor.

    [ssm: Yes, Danny is a good example. He's very charming, so women don't mind about him being a bit short and bald. Plus, I think everyone remembers when I've spoken about Obese Guy at my church (who's also nearly bald, by the way) who is so charming. When he speaks to me, I catch my self unconsciously twirling strands of hair around my fingers and laughing a little too much at his jokes despite the fact that he extremely fat. Charming > handsome.]

  151. Opus

    I also like SSM’s 09.47 comment – it is nice to hear it from a woman. For me, marital rape is as incoherent a notion as that of being a married bachelor.

    Marriage removes choice anxiety, for by marriage you acknowledge that your man is your Alpha. If you are not happy with that you should nopt have married but you can always divorce, which is what you will do if you think you have been ‘raped’. To add Rape to Divorce is to punch someone in their solar plexus, much as a man might Rape someone and then beat them up for resisting. Nasty.

    My opinion of the Judiciary (who changed the law in Enlgand by pretending that it had never existed) is very low.

  152. earl

    Perhaps the biggest factor when it comes to men is the concept of worry.

    Just imagine how much better you’d kill with ladies if you didn’t have that self-destructive voice in your head whispering pretty little lies. That’s right…I went there with the male hamster.

  153. Cail Corishev

    The church cannot generally override the judgment of a court, but it can tell a wayward member (or even frequent attender) that her (his) behavior is not Biblical, and that she (he) will be excommunicated if the behavior persists.

    That has nothing to do with my statement to which you responded, which was that men are “disarmed” in the battle of female teasing versus male strength, by the fact that the laws have been changed to make any male response in that situation illegal other than capitulation. So IF they belong to a good church, and IF the church priest or elders believe his word over hers, they MAY rebuke her. So what? He’s either in jail because he didn’t back down fast enough to suit her, or he did back down and now looks like a total wuss to her and every other woman in the vicinity because he wasn’t man enough to deal with her himself. Whatever rebuke she gets will be scant comfort to him at that point.

    [ssm: Cail, I agree with you, and this problem has concerned for some time. What is the solution, though?

    One time awhile back I noted that when I was husband-hunting I never had a specific type, physically. What I needed was a man who scared me just a little. There are a lot of feminists who read here religiously, so when I was Manboobed recently, one of the commenters there brought up that old comment of mine and wrote:

    OK, mocking her kinda stopped being funny when I read this. Now I’m wondering if her internalized misogyny is coming from her husband

    But that isn't right. It's not internalized misogyny, and my husband is in no way abusive. He's never hit me or anything like that. It's just that I knew that I would behave better with a man who seemed like he would enforce consequences for bad behavior. This is a man who will disassemble a dishwasher and leave it in pieces if I disobey him and put sharp knives in it, LOL. Much as I hate to say it, women need that. Yet with the law so up in everyone's business, it makes it much harder to a man to (benevolently) rule his home.]

  154. Maeve

    @BB – the real problem is that threats of excommunication or censure or whatever only work if they mean something to the individual. It’s pretty easy to mosey on down to the “Church of What’s Happening” if your own church is a little too particular about the details.

    I ran into an acquaintance last week who had divorced her husband several years ago because he had opinions or something. Her husband is a very nice guy and was really rocked by the whole thing. Allow me to add that they’re Catholic. Except, she tells me “so I got rebaptized last month.” I’m thinking to myself, “what’s a rebaptism?” See, down the street is the Shiny Happy Church of Yay. And they have no problem with her being divorced. Or getting remarried if she want to. So that’s where she goes to church now. And now she’s in a bit of a lather because Dad wont’ let her have their daughter be “rebaptized”.

    If she get excommunicated tomorrow, won’t make one bit of difference to her. If her shiny new church kicks her out, won’t matter either -she’ll just find another one that reaffirms her actions. I wonder if there is some limit on how many times you can get yourself baptized.

  155. imnobody00

    [ssm: I'm just reporting the facts, sir. Lifetime hard monogamy with no divorce is the only system that protects both men and women. We don't have it right now in the West, but that doesn't change the fact that this is what works.]

    Agreed, madam. I don’t think we disagree in that. Bitter much?

    [ssm: Huh? Not following you here. Why would I be bitter? I don't like the fact that we don't have this system, and I hope we have it in the future, but I'm not bitter about it.]

  156. deti

    LeeLeeBug:

    It’s funny. I can go to a manosphere site, put up that anecdote about myself at ages 26 and 45, and the men reading it will know exactly what I’m talking about and the point I’m trying to make.

    I come here and put this up, and it’s called “Oprahtastic” and “TMI” and “a ploy for sympathy” and I’m offered help (which isn’t necessary, but thank you just the same).

    For your benefit, I’ll walk you through the point.

    The point is this: The things we men were told growing up were “attractive” are in fact not attractive. Good job, good salary, provider status, were sufficient to secure a good mate. Those things aren’t sufficient any longer; in fact they’re hindrances to attraction.

    I apologize to the readers on this board for wasting your time and mine.

  157. Cane Caldo

    I’m am…no defender of Deti, and I’ll go further and say that I cannot imagine any situation where I’d let a man who, in real life, sounded like Deti on the web pursue one of my daughters.

    But the idea that churches are full of girls trying to find good Christians mates through discernment and parental involvement, or that churches are fair-minded in judgment–seek justice between couples, would support a husband, etc.–is a joke.

    The word “joke” deserves an emphatic adjective that I have spared you.

  158. Cane Caldo

    @Deti

    The point is this: The things we men were told growing up were “attractive” are in fact not attractive. Good job, good salary, provider status, were sufficient to secure a good mate. Those things aren’t sufficient any longer; in fact they’re hindrances to attraction.

    They were never sufficient, Deti. Stop blaming others for your inability to believe your lying eyes. You were wronged when they lied to you. Now you’re a grown man. See what you see. Do what seems right to you. Reap what you sow. There is nothing else. Nobody owes you anything; not even a fair hearing.

  159. Bike Bubba

    Cail, if the person has recourse, they are not utterly disarmed. At a disadvantage, but not disarmed. In the cases we’re discussing here, what some feminists are trying to do is add what I’ll call “appropriate touch” to the categories of sexual assault. So if someone comes to the pastor with papers indicating he’s been charged with “appropriate touch” against his wife, that becomes a clearly documented issue for the deacons to figure out. The person has basically confessed, no?

    Now it’s true, as Maeve notes, that some people just don’t care. Can’t do much about that except to make sure that you’re in a church that takes church discipline seriously, methinks, and make sure whoever you marry also (a) has long term friends and (b) also believes in church discipline. It sure beats sharing a bed with a girl who can’t suss out the difference between Christ and Marx, even if things don’t blow up.

  160. Cane Caldo

    @Deti

    Yeah, right back atcha, Cane.

    Hahaha!

    WHAT back at me, Deti? Every word that proceeds from you, you mean to destroy the common ground I could find with you. Every utterance of you is the sniveling of a pathetic Herb of a man who rails at everyone about how you’ve been wronged; never about how you have helped other men OVERCOME, but only–at MOST–commiseration. My commiseration time is all booked up for people who want to be improved, and to improve others.

  161. Zippy

    Deti:
    The issue isn’t what I think of you. The issue is how you view yourself (as self-professed), and how that distorts your view of the world. It is also that your demands for sharing in the sewing circle are only going to be met by a certain kind of self-selected men. So, in a situation similar to the apex fallacy, you are only going to see what confirms your caricature of reality.

  162. deti

    Cane:

    I understand all of this.

    I was trying to illustrate a point, to get people to see there’s a problem.

    But thanks for the edifying words. I think.

  163. Bike Bubba

    Oh, and Cail, in a case where a woman wrongly seeks to put her husband into jail, the punishment from the deacons and pastors of the churches I’ve attended would be excommunication, not just a rebuke. We’d look at the papers, figure out that the “crime” is not a crime in marriage, and warn her that she will be excommunicated if she continues with charges.

    We might also notify the congregation that, if selected for jury duty for such a case, that they are to discern whether the “assault” truly qualifies as an assault with a real injury before voting on whether to convict. So the process, if properly done, is not as limp-wristed as a view of some churches might indicate.

  164. Jason

    The strangest part about this notion of marital rape is that a husband can be threaten with jail if a wife fails to keep her marital vows but even after she has elect the marriage and run off with someone else (especially if there are kids involved) he is still expected to keep his and the state will use other men with guns to insure he does.

    Go figure.

  165. FuzzieWuzzie

    Deti, it took me a while to read to the end of the thread. Earlier, you were asking for refutations and the one offered by Elspeth was too easily dismissed (maybe not by you). I think that it may be significant. If Elspeth’s fine example of a daughter is having trouble, no doubt a lot of women are. Could “Men on Strike” be real?

  166. Cane Caldo

    @Deti

    I was trying to illustrate a point, to get people to see there’s a problem.

    Bullshit.

    @Bike Bubba

    Oh, and Cail, in a case where a woman wrongly seeks to put her husband into jail, the punishment from the deacons and pastors of the churches I’ve attended would be excommunication, not just a rebuke. We’d look at the papers, figure out that the “crime” is not a crime in marriage, and warn her that she will be excommunicated if she continues with charges.

    Well, this sounds so good on a blog! How does it work in the real world church. Gosh, collecting facts is hard; doubly-so when talking about something as rarely discussed as marital rape, and the associated false charges. As a stand-in: Let’s see a show of hands of those people who attend a church where second marriages actually aren’t recognized because they are in the midst of adultery; no membership; no communion; etc.

    We might also notify the congregation that, if selected for jury duty for such a case, that they are to discern whether the “assault” truly qualifies as an assault with a real injury before voting on whether to convict.

    Do you know of any case in the last fifty years where a church of your denomination has made this or a similar move? Really, I’d accept any denomination.

  167. Farm Boy

    Deti’s view of the world correlates with what I have seen.

    As for proving this or that, the stats needed are typically politically incorrect. Therefore, we are all left with the sum of what we as individuals have seen.

  168. Artisanal Toad

    Thank you Sunshine, I’m fond of you as well. I agree that sex should take place within marriage, but for the men… as we both know, the potential for false accusations is always present whether in marriage or outside marriage. However, none of this stuff exists within a vacuum and for every action there is a reaction, though not necessarily equal or opposite.

    I actually wrote that last comment primarily as food for thought for your women readers because I don’t think many of the men who read your blog really need that advice. However, it is advice that more and more young men are getting because of news stories like this one or perhaps this one, in which three boys got picked up by a cougar who later falsely accused them of rape. Turns out one of them filmed enough of the action with his cell phone that prosecutors dropped the case.

    So, yes, in line with the point of the OP, men are being encouraged to film every sexual encounter, just in case. But maybe one should record all interactions with females. Google Glass, anyone?

    However, the women who REALLY need to hear that message are the WIVES who are at odds with their beta husbands and tempted by the McGorgeous or McBadboy types. A wife has a lot more on the table and (if she wants to preserve her reputation/name/marriage/family) claiming she was raped may make a lot of sense to her, so a guy that’s banging a married woman ought to give that some thought and make sure he can prove it wasn’t rape. How? Digital Video.

    It wouldn’t have stopped the pastor in Louisiana from getting shot, but he would have been able to defend himself in court from the rape charge if he hadn’t been killed by the cuckolded husband and former deacon of his church. One wonders how Bike Bubba will spin that story.

    Think of this in terms of an arms race. There is no way to know whether that illicit or adulterous afternoon of wild monkey-sex was being recorded or not. Simply perusing the variety of hidden cameras available these days is mind-boggling. There are motion-activated DVR’s hidden in innocuous looking items such as air fresheners along with “ordinary” hidden cameras in things like key fobs, coat-hooks and ink pens.

    I should also point out that the video quality of some of these hidden cameras is pretty impressive. The question is not whether your face will be recognizable, the question is whether that little pimple by your nose will be visible (probably). Some might say the cost is an issue, and college kids don’t have the money to buy these kinds of cameras. Wrong. Every college guy I know can come up with $25.00. One of these mounted behind the mirror above his headboard (You know she’ll be looking right at the camera, especially in some positions as she’s watching herself in the mirror) is going to get some great video that no self-respecting woman would ever want to be posted online. I make no comment on why a self-respecting woman would be fornicating or committing adultery… other than the hamster knows no law.

    There is the potential for blackmail, in addition to crushing embarrassment and destroyed relationships, depending on the job one has or a lot of other things… and this kind of thing could seriously ruin a woman’s life. Look at the otherwise well-behaved women who had their lives wrecked by getting drunk on vacation in Florida and later showed up in a “Girls Gone Wild” video. In the story below, the video of Holli masturbating was uploaded several years ago. It can still be found by searching for it with her original name, which the article helpfully provides. She sued an internet host to get the video taken offline, but surprise, surprise, surprise- it’s on the torrents so it will never go away until everybody stops seeding it.

    If the threat of pregnancy or STD’s won’t make a woman try to control the tingles and put a leash on her hamster, perhaps the thought of a hidden camera should be considered and what might happen to that video one day will make a difference. This is not all that uncommon after the breakup these days….

    The sale of hidden cameras is booming and for a man who is sexually promiscuous but isn’t a real Alpha type, it’s good insurance.

    Women can look for cameras all they want but technology will always stay ahead of them. Therefore, women who are sexually promiscuous should just expect there is a high probability they will be recorded having sex at some point. The better looking and wilder she is, the more likely she’ll be recorded having sex, repeatedly. Most guys would film themselves having sex with a woman just so they could watch it later, but there is somewhat of a social stigma in doing so. Now, given the environment of the SMP and feminist attitudes toward rape and sexual assault, the guys have good reason to do something they already wanted to do. In other words, they can morally justify it.

    Let me now address the legalities. Opus, I understand what you’re saying but here on this side of the pond things are a bit different.

    In the United States, making a digital video recording of of your bedroom gymnastics without your partners knowledge may or may not be illegal depending on the jurisdiction and type of data collected/stored. For example, the following 12 states are “Two Party Consent” states with respect to AUDIO recording; which means both parties must consent to be AUDIO-recorded: California, Connecticut, Florida, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, Montana, Nevada, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania and Washington (Hawaii is also in general a one-party state, but requires two-party consent if the recording device is installed in a private place). Again, the statutes in these states for the most part pertain to audio only.

    There are very few laws that apply to video. Check with your specific state laws, but remember that video is not the same as audio and laws haven’t caught up with this stuff yet.

    Under federal law and in all the remaining states, the rule is one party must consent to being recorded. Since the guy knows he’s recording it, the recording is LEGAL. With respect to video recording (without audio), as long as one person knows they are being recorded, it is generally legal in all states for video only. Anyone in a One-Party state is free to record to their hearts content with both video and audio. Consider this fair warning.

    The real question is if somebody recorded digital video with audio and needed the audio to conclusively prove that what happened was consensual. If they’re in a One Party state, everything is kosher but getting the audio entered into evidence with the video might be impossible. If they live in a two-party state, the audio probably violates the wiretapping laws but the video, generally, does not. Source for legal info: Digital Media Law Project. This isn’t legal advice unless you’re paying for it and you can prove I’m a member of that most despicable class of persons known as attorneys.

    Sunshine Mary has made it clear that she does not advocate breaking any laws and I agree with her. Women can generally avoid the embarrassment of having videos of them engaged in naked hamsterbatics showing up on the internet by only having sex with their spouse and never frivorcing him…. cause even husbands might feel the urge to have some permanent reminders in old age of how good things were when he was young… and regardless of age, not all men are capable of the faith it takes to trust the Lord when He says “Vengeance is mine and I will repay.”

  169. Zippy

    Farm Boy:
    Deti’s view of the world correlates with what I have seen.

    It correlates with some of what I have seen too, in much the same way that a caricature correlates to a particular frozen moment in time of the face it is based upon.

  170. Artisanal Toad

    @Cane
    Let’s see a show of hands of those people who attend a church where second marriages actually aren’t recognized because they are in the midst of adultery; no membership; no communion; etc.

    *crickets*

  171. FuzzieWuzzie

    Today was pile on Deti day. I would have a hard time finding a better advocate for our society has trashed betas. I have only one word of criticism for him, in characterizing himself as a chump, he has done a disservice. Anyone who can save his marriage from his wife’s rebellion is not a chump. Kudos to you, Deti!

  172. FuzzieWuzzie

    Getting back to the original post, a quick rereaqding left me with the feeling that the highlighted writer was necking on the couch with her date and he escalated. This is normal. That she backed him off is also normal. Calling it rape because he couldn’t read her mind is not mormal.

  173. Carlotta

    Sheesh. Deti is imploding.
    What exactly are you so angry about dude?. So you were fat, going bald and lacking charm and some people tried to build your confidence by telling you something nice? Should they have pointed out the obvious strikes against you?

    I grew up with feminism shoved down my throat and woke up from that nightmare. And got about the business of personel responsibility for my own life.
    Why exactly SHOULD you have hooked at hot practicing Christian? Were you a comitted Christian? Were you hot, charming, skilled or financially successful? Whose fault is that?
    You are married now and claim to be a game guru but you whine about women like a teething toddler. That is your problem.
    You want first prize but refuse to do what is necessary. And just trash talk the prize to try to poison others from trying.

    As for Christians, real ones are rare. Just like ladies. Stop being shocked by it and screaming “I found one….lets get em!”

  174. Artisanal Toad

    We are all informed by our experience. Depending on the experience in question, it will make more or less of an impact on our minds and attitudes. I think this is why those who haven’t been mentally/verbally/emotionally/financially abused or even raped by a wife find it so hard to relate to someone who has suffered this type of trauma. For myself, I have not been allowed to see my children for far too long and it gets old talking to them on the phone and trying to answer the questions of “Why don’t you come see me?” To those who have no experience with something like this, STFU. You have no clue.

    The position Deti has taken, for better or worse, is a realistic position based on his experience. It is reflected in far more men than most can imagine. He made it out of the death-spiral and managed to save his marriage. For that, he is to be congratulated. I didn’t.

    Some here have said they only wish to hear marriage advice from those who are successful. I listen to Bike Bubba spout off about what a wonderful elder of his church he is. I wonder. How would BB deal with a narcissistic personality disorder type, or a borderline disorder type? They can be charming when they want to be. Their sociopathy knows no limits. They can lie with a straight face and convincingly act out virtually any scenario you can come up with. The elders of any churches who actually want to adhere to a Biblical form of discipline are for the most part incapable of even identifying such people, much less dealing with them on a spiritual level.

    Men who have been through the meat-grinder and managed to maintain their sanity are accused of bitterness and anger. What do you expect? Twenty years ago my mother was physically robbed, raped, abducted and threatened with death for 18 hours before the man who abducted her kicked her out of her own car on the side of the road. She walked half a mile to the nearest house to get help in her nightgown. Yet, twenty years later that’s a non-event in her life. OTOH, men who were frivorced by their wives… run through the wringer… it tends to plague them till the day they die. It took my father 10 years to really get over what happened to his wife.

    I didn’t know it had happened when my father summoned me. He gave me plane tickets to Colorado Springs, CO. (where I had formerly lived) and told me he thought I needed a vacation for three weeks. With the plane tickets was a really healthy bonus check that I hadn’t signed on an account I wasn’t aware of. (I was the CFO of the business). I didn’t find out what had happened until I got back. He did it to keep me from going rogue and killing the Perp.

    My (now) 75 year old Baptist Sunday School teaching mother and former rape victim would absolutely destroy most of the feminists today, but she has no desire to waste her limited time on idiots. I agree with her sentiments. She doesn’t even know this blog exists.

  175. Bike Bubba

    Cane asks a great question of whether any churches I know of are vigorous about church discipline in cases like this. While thankfully my churches have not harbored feminists of the type who would complain to the deacons about appropriate touch by a husband–I would guess that the fact that the deacons are all male would deter such an allegation–I know that my pastors have been vigorous about removing unrepentant divorcers and from fellowship, and I’ve heard women exhorted from the pulpit to gladly receive their husband’s love. I’ve also been personally present as a member off my church’s youth group and her father were rebuked for her immodesty.

    In other words, I know whereof I speak, and I also remember being appalled when I saw an unrepentant adulterer serving in the UMC church I grew up in serving as an usher. The difference is huge, and if you’re appalled at how defenseless spouses are to divorce in liberal churches, you might do well to check out evangelical or even baptistic distinctives and consider changing churches.

  176. Bike Bubba

    Toad; I’m not an elder, nor have I ever been. Former deacon (you know the role if you’ve been Baptist I’m sure), youth group leader currently, but no elder. Maybe someday, but not yet.

    And what to do with a narcissistic personality disorder? Isn’t the tragedy at the Navy facility a demonstration that even VA psychologists don’t always know what to do with mental illness? I’m therefore loath to pick on deacon boards for not being able to pick it out. For the record, though, my sister-in-law and her former husband are both manic depressive, and I figured out a method of picking out Robert’s mania before it happened. Whenever he bought or sold cars, or talked off going to Deja Vu, it was coming. I’d guess, that a lot of people give clear signs that something is off. Isn’t there a book–psychopaths in suits or something like that–that indicates that fornication and excessive risk-taking is a warning sign?

    Hope that the guy who abused your mom got to spend a good long time in the graybar hotel, BTW.

  177. Cane Caldo

    @Bike Bubba

    I know that my pastors have been vigorous about removing unrepentant divorcers and from fellowship

    Male, female, or both?

    I will admit that the bar I set on this is pretty high; to match the stakes. Every church of which I’ve been a member has a “divorce care” group, and I’ve never known anyone to be, ah, removed. Nor have I ever known anyone and their blended family to be turned away. The game is: “Change churches when you divorce”.

    you might do well to check out evangelical or even baptistic distinctives and consider changing churches.

    I come from a Southern Baptist tradition, and I’ve never heard of this happening. I changed to Anglican because it least it still feels like church, and they incubated C.S. Lewis for us.

  178. Deti

    Carlotta :

    If you don’t understand the point I wax making at 6:24 pm then I’m afraid I can’t help you.

  179. Christina

    I’m so confused.

    Deti takes anecdotal evidence of his experiences and extrapolates to the general and he’s right…

    But Zippy does the same thing and it is solipsism?

    If Deti can do it, why not Zippy?

    Now… as to christian women who try to do the right thing, they are probably just as hard to find as the decent, good, Christian men. Meaning, you probably won’t find them looking in the church because they tried that and no one was interested.

    I don’t know… I often wonder what planet deti lives on because relationships were never as easy as picking out breakfast. Maybe I was clueless because no one would approach me. I certainly didn’t intend to scream “keep away, I bite.”

    But I’ll refrain from drawing general conclusions from my limited view of the world… because apparently that is solipsism.

  180. Dominic

    To digress a little from the main point of this post, Cane Caldo, you might want to consider very carefully whether the Tiber is worth the swim, especially in the light of their new Pope. You can read more about it here from an ex-Catholic now Eastern Orthodox article to the Times,

    What needed changing? Lots. My own brokenness was plain to me, and I was ready to turn from my destructive sins and become a new person. The one thing I didn’t want to do was surrender my sexual liberty, which was my birthright as a young American male. I knew, though, that without fully giving over my will to God, any conversion would be precarious. By then, I was all too wary of my evasions. To convert provisionally — that is, provided that the Church didn’t hassle me about my sex life — would really be about seeking the psychological comforts of religion without making sacrifices.

    What I was told, in effect, in that university Catholic parish was that God loved me just as I was — true — but that I didn’t need to do anything else. It dawned on me one day that at the end of this process, all of us in the class would end up as Catholics but have no idea what the Catholic Church taught. I bolted, and a year later, I was received into the church in another parish…

    Today, as much as I admire Pope Francis and understand the enthusiasm among Catholics for him, his interview makes me realize that the good, if incomplete, work that John Paul II and Benedict XVI did to restore the church after the violence of the revolution stands to be undone. Though I agree with nearly everything the Pope said last week in his interview and cheer inwardly when he chastises rigorist knotheads who would deny the healing medicine of the church to anyone, I fear his merciful words will be received not as love but license. The “spirit of Pope Francis” will replace the “spirit of Vatican II” as the rationalization people will use to ignore the difficult teachings of the faith. If so, this Pope will turn out to be like his predecessor John XXIII: a dear man, but a tragic figure.

    In his interview, the Pope used a metaphor for the church that is often employed by Eastern Orthodox Christianity: he called it a “field hospital” where the walking wounded can receive treatment. He’s right, but it’s important to discern the nature of the cure on offer. Anesthesia is a kind of medicine that masks pain, but it’s not the kind of medicine that heals the underlying sickness.

    Read more: http://ideas.time.com/2013/09/29/im-still-not-going-back-to-the-catholic-church/#ixzz2gWc2HEnj

  181. Saint Velvet

    @ Deti, from way up thread :

    muamts. Man up and marry those sluts
    wuam. Woman up and marry

    I have a great deal of affection for you Deti, but you douche did you just call me FIFTY!!??!! Ssm I demand you do something about these vicious attacks on my personhood.

    Deti I think I’ve perhaps misunderstood your message? Whether or not awalt isn’t my concern, only that the (soon to be) women under my influence not be like that. Perhaps we’re talking past each other because you’re speaking of what you’ve experienced (I think anyone with eyeballs and who went to college would agree that your experience is not uncommon) and I’m focusing my efforts on my own daughters not being like that, and my sons not wifing that up.

    So yes what you say is true, I get it, I empathize to the extent I am able. I guess my question would be “now what?”. Revisiting a marital crisis over and over again, one which your bald middle aged self seems to have handled quite capably, that’s where you lose me. Is your goal awareness, solution, or, as it would appear, sowing seeds of perpetual dissatisfaction?

  182. Artisanal Toad

    Think of a piece of prime rib, drenched with a sauce of butter and walnut… a large helping of braised asparagus tips in sour cream…. and put M&Ms out of your mind.

  183. Artisanal Toad

    Sorry, I forgot the cloves of garlic reduced in butter to sweetness and mixed with the walnut sauce. Simmered over low heat until you can see the garlic start to turn color…. then you pour the mixture over the prime rib and serve… you have to experience it.

  184. Artisanal Toad

    @Fuzzie
    If you ever get the opportunity to dine at my table, you won’t regret it and you won’t walk away hungry. I can feed even a bear to the point of unbuckling the belt….

  185. Maeve

    Ok Fuzzie, You know the common expressions “wet blanket” and “kill joy” – commonly used against people who just want to ruin the fun? Well, at some point some silly argument broke out it the house over which one was “better”. So the decision was made to combine them and do away with the issue. I felt that “wetjoy” just sounded entirely too pervy coming out of the mouth of a 10-year old, (plus it sounded more like fun than a downer) thus, “killblanket” was born. TaDa!

  186. Maeve

    AT – I did OK at dinner – short ribs and broccoli (and the Pioneer Woman Crash Potatoes – but I only had two and they were small)

  187. deti

    Carlotta:

    “You *** claim to be a game guru”

    False. I have never claimed any such thing. I read, listen, watch, observe, evaluate, conclude, and then write down my conclusions.

    Velvet:

    “you douche did you just call me FIFTY!!??!!”

    No. That was a reference to church ladies.

  188. deti

    “Is your goal awareness, solution, or, as it would appear, sowing seeds of perpetual dissatisfaction?”

    Awareness and vigilance, so my son does not repeat his father’s errors. Educating myself and others, so that others never make the mistakes I made.

  189. Artisanal Toad

    @Maeve
    I like the Pioneer Woman, but she has too many carbs in her lineup. The olive oil is good, as is the Kosher salt. I like sea salt, but Kosher salt is good. Potatoes are pure carbs. That which passes through the lips ends up winding sticking to the hips. Write it in lipstick on your mirror. Tis truth. It’s such a downer…. but a half-cup of cottage cheese with an ounce of cold-pressed flax-seed oil thoroughly mashed and mixed together is actually quite good. That was my supper tonight, but I feel good about it.

  190. Maeve

    @AT – I think we’re going to have to come up with some substitute for cottage cheese. It’s on the list of what you’re fed when you go to hell. Maybe some mozzarella wrapped with prosciutto and some pepperoncini. And olives!

  191. FuzzieWuzzie

    We had better drop this right here. Otherwise, I will look for a video of Sgt. Shultz from Hogan’s Heroes.

  192. Looking Glass

    Hrmm… I guess I’ll come in for some logic clean up. So, a bunch of points to address.

    On the actual main topic, “marital rape” is a semantic construction intended to put an intentional wedge in the marriage relationship. Consent is agreed to at the wedding vows; the Red Herring complaints are *EASILY* dealt with under classical assault laws. (Or they could go with the older & classical, “well, why didn’t you just shoot the bastard?”; that’s actually what would have happened. Modern Feminists are actually stupidly weak.)

    Now, a few direct responses, then dealing with what the thread topic became of the SMP & MMP.

    @Bike Bubba:

    It’s nice you found some good enclaves. They’re very valuable as we’re headed back to something far too close to per-collapse Roman Empire society. But the stats you linked aren’t exactly “heartening”. As a Man, your only acceptable option is to become a Messiac Jew, apparently.

    I’ll get to why isn’t surprising in a bit.

    @Cail:

    The problem with “teasing” effectively requires a bit of “Game” thinking. You can’t do your normal response (unless you’ve got the psychopathy streak to just ignore the consequences) of just pushing her off or maybe slap a hand. You have to think outside the problem.

    I prefer displays of strength that aren’t very questionable. Depending on where you are or the contexts, find something cheap to replace and destroy it, with severe prejudice. If you happen to have the strength, bending steel rebar works great too. And if you can, keep some in your office for tricks. :)

    The law now favors 2nd & 3rd Order thinking about instinctual situations. That’s hard, which is why most guys will fail to deal with them, as they’re being forced to work at a mental level a lot of them simply won’t be given to.

    @SSM:

    This is a REALLY big aside, but would you be interested in a guest post on “Diet, dieting & realities”? It struck me that it’s a topic that would easily generate the single biggest amount of vitriol, but it could be useful. I was curious what you view as a word-limit?

    @On Deti’s points about SMP/MMP and all of the responses:

    I’ve been thinking about this one for a bit, and I’m really surprised no one has noticed, commented or brought up these ideas. So, here they are. (Note: I’m 30, single & celibate, but I’m not looking right now, so I have an “Insider’s Outside” view to it)

    If you’re part of a small, tight-knit religious tradition (German Baptists around our parts), your MMP exists quite vibrantly. The community will go out of its way to find you someone (and get you in shape to deal with it all).

    If you’re not a part of that type of religious community, you’re in the Meat Market. Period. Oh, it’s a bit more “Christian”, but it’s practically the same. Maybe there is less sex happening, but that’s hard to say. But it’s still another version of the Meat Grinder because…

    There exists no meeting places for the 18-30 crowd among Christians. Period. What existed for small periods in the post-1960 world are all gone now. If, as a guy with a “brain”, you don’t snag a wife during College or Graduate School, you’re up a creek without a paddle. If you’re a girl, you’re pretty much in the exact same boat, but you’re staring right in the face that the first inflection point in your fertility is age 26.

    Even in my conservative, protestant Church, the reality is they don’t know what to do either. It pretty much works about like this:
    - Graduate High School
    - Disappear until you get Married (maybe show up for Christmas)
    - Attend regularly after engagement/marriage

    There’s a gaping hole in the graph for attendance. While I can’t see the back of the balcony in the church (as I sit up front), I’m always the only unattached Male between 18-35 in the services I’m in. It’s very noticeable. (Now, I normally attend opposite the College group’s time, but that one doesn’t have a huge amount of guys) And this isn’t a Church that’s ever dropped a “Man up!” sermon, at least that I attended. It’s a good church from a strong denomination, but they don’t have it figured out either.

    So the “beta” guy really is utterly up a creek without a paddle. He not only has been sold out by society (some intentionally, some unintentionally), he’s now at a brutal disadvantage. The only way he’s getting married before 30 is via the creation of a social network. What’s his biggest problem? A lack of one.

    We live in an Age of Unreality. What is preferenced above all else is Personal Power. Without it, nothing else works for a Man. But, of course, the World is very good at telling him to shove that development all in the wrong direction. Which isn’t too surprising.

    Matthew 7:13-14 (KJV):
    “13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.”

    @On Women getting approached:

    This isn’t one of those “oh, all of you solipsistic Women!” points; it’s just the reality of it. Yes, young women get *A LOT* of attention. Pretty much anything that doesn’t end with “would you like fries with that?” is going to come down to a male checking for relationship possibility.

    Now, it doesn’t always mean they’re after sex, but the “relational context” to the interactions is *always* implicit. To the point a Man will get chided if he isn’t approaching conversations like that… by Women. Which just means that, for Women, it’s simply the basic aspect of interactions with Men. It just “is”, which means you forget it’s there.

    There’s something similar from a Man’s side of thing, but most guys can acknowledge it. We’re always hierarchy seeking. We know it. We compete and that’s a huge part of it. Some guys even do this while they’re driving on the highway. They *have* to be in front of the person they’re stuck behind. It’s intrinsic to our nature. But there’s no denying it. (It should be noted that AMOG’ing is someone trying to pose for position; which isn’t what this is)

    The one exception to the relational aspect is the actual true, Apex Alpha male. Since they’re mostly extroverts by nature (or act it very well), they really will interact with people for 0 purpose past interacting with them. For the other 98% of Men, yeah, it’s about relational context, if it’s devoid of necessary interaction.

  193. an observer

    Glass,

    Churches have long been a wilderness zone for single guys. Any single beta man that is less than perfectly alpha, lacks tattooes, does not ride a motorcycle or lead worship, is pretty much washed up in the social scene for ten or fifteen years or so.

    By that time, the single women that ignored him the last ten years are usually unhappily married, unhappily divorced, unhappy HR coordinators or bitter single never married mommies.

    If, as a guy with a “brain”, you don’t snag a wife during College or Graduate School, you’re up a creek without a paddle.

    College aged women have long prioritised careers. Good luck meeting one in that age range.

  194. Chris

    Maeve said (a long time ago, so I am going to quote everything she said)

    This is going to sound truly awful, but these women who promulgate the dangerous ideology of “sexual assault is whatever I think it is at whatever time I think it is” – need to be shunned. It is a truly hideous mentality. They need to be shunned, labeled, called out, roundly rejected, stigmatized, denounced, pilloried – call it whatever you want – not only by men, but especially by other women who have sons, brothers, nephews, uncles, fathers that they love. If ever there was a modern need for a scarlet letter, it would be for this. These women are a walking menace to every man they encounter.

    And the other thing they do – which to my mind is just as inexcusable – is they dilute the horror that is rape. And anyone who has ever been there knows damn well that there’s no comparison whatsoever. It’s unforgivable. Absolutely and completely unforgivable.

    She’s correct.

    Someone really needs to write an article about how patriarchy protects women, as it requires men to prequalify and be preselected to court, and then those prequalified men keep all the cads, scoundrels and foreigners away.

    But that came with a cost — hard monogamy. Consider Sense and Senibility. The youngest Bennett sister foolishly marries, and she is NOT allowed to divorce him. Instead the family and the man who then courts Elizabeth sort HIM out, and ensure he can provide for her. The alternative is to leave polite society.

    These rules were generally enforced by women, and by shunning. If the soft power of the sisterhood (the aunties, the grannies, in effect) did not work, then the hard force of the patriarchy would drive the offenders out — to the gallows, the colonies (as prisoners or remittence men) or to the demin-monde.

    We have removed the rules of soft power, and are left but with the law: and without honour (for feminists and leftists have no use for such a bourgousie sentiment) one is left but with tantrums and raw force. Neither of which will sustain a society.

    Our job in these times is not to live as the world does. The church needs to preach hard monogamy, even to us scarred divorced casualties of the current age.

  195. Sarah's Daughter

    @Deti
    Awareness and vigilance, so my son does not repeat his father’s errors. Educating myself and others, so that others never make the mistakes I made.

    It is my hope that I’m still reading your words in eight years, Deti. Your son is young, you have a lot of time yet. In this household, there are many many nights of long conversations, tonight was one of them, discussing these issues. Our son has been told no lies about the SMP, he’s never been told to be a “nicer, kinder, beta shlub” he’s been reading Alpha Game and CH for a year now and still, he’s frustrated. He’s been going against what is most naturally within him – which is why I give as much weight to the categorizing of the socio/sexual hierarchy of men being reality as the manner in which they’ve been raised. No matter what he’s witnessed within our home or what he’s read, he remains a goofy, kind, Delta, who must deny his natural tendency to be hopeful in the “friend zone.” He literally asked us, just tonight, whether or not the implementation of some of the tenants of game align with Christian morals. Believe me when I say, he does not get this Christian “nice guy” morality from a church setting or from older women feeding him lies. This is something deep within him.

    He would like to be (he’s extremely intelligent) the nerdy, video game playing, take me as I am, friendly, quirky, funny guy he is. We have had to insist that he either play sports or have a job. Because we have come to understand that if a 16 year old young man isn’t tired/busy, he’s an asshole. So he plays football and wrestles. He has no “Beta” in him…there is nothing in him that understands the Alpha worship that he sees out of his team mates for the studs on their team. He’s become a student of the game (of football) that prefers to spend his free time with guys of equal intellect as he. We helped him understand tonight that he will never be the guy that gets the extras from the “Alpha’s” harem. That he will have to become the AMOG of the guys he’s most comfortable with and maintain his harem of fuglies (without being their BFF’s) until a girl he finds attractive takes notice of him. We also discovered tonight that he has been oblivious of a very cute girl’s attraction (she’s a couple years younger than him and has been completely off his radar) who his sisters have known for some time and known of her crush on him.
    He’s above average in looks, he’s tall but skinny, yet he struggles with the very same thing I read about here and elsewhere from men who seem to dole out blame for their circumstance. The example he has, however, is a father who is much like him but came to understand the nature of women, chose not to hate them for it but instead capitalized on it and was able to “get the girl” with his learned socio/sexual behavior and “keep the girl” with his ability to balance Alpha/Beta – or in his case Delta/Sigma (A very significant differential, one that Alpha/Beta doesn’t sufficiently encompass).

    On topic: Lifetime hard monogamy with no divorce for women, and lifetime fidelity and commitment (under either a monogamous or polygynous system) with no divorce for men: this is the only system that protects both men and women.

    Yes, absolutely!

  196. Sarah's Daughter

    Let me add one more thing, Deti
    Don’t knock the bald thing…
    RLB has been Bic’ed bald for years now and I wouldn’t have it any other way. Sure he had an awesome mullet when we first met, but he was never as sexy then as he is today with his bald head! :)

  197. Looking Glass

    @SD:

    Let me give your son a really good piece of advice. This will sit pretty easy with him, with regard to his hobbies.

    “You should be truthful & honest. That doesn’t mean you tell people *EVERYTHING*. If you don’t care about where she gets nail polish, she doesn’t need to care about your most recent video game completion.”

    It’s a good point to remember. Which normally just means you don’t shot yourself in the foot by talking past her about something she doesn’t care about. :)

  198. Elspeth

    I was thinking a bit about this thing Deti talked about (and frankly Sunshine, taking in the sum total of Deti’s comments I can sort of believe his anecdote) and the problem is one of letting what you read around the sphere define you.

    For example, being bald. My husband has all of his hair. We suspect he’s going to keep it but every summer, he shaves his head because it’s cooler. He looks good like that. His younger brother has been near bald since his late 20′s. He shaved it all off, never had a problem with women paying attention to him. Self-perception.

    I went through a bit of shock when I first entered the sphere. I was stunned to learn that black women are considered universally unatractive. I never really thought about that before because I’m married to a man who is objectively attractive. He cose me. ergo, I must be somewhat attractive. Learning that this wasn’t true was shocking.

    Until I thought about it and realized that I don’t really care anymore about the opinions of men that I most likely wouldn’t find attractive either if I were single. My taste has always been the same. For example: Idris Elba, Benicio Del Toro, Clive Owen, in that order. Darkest, darker, kind of dark (if white), and very rugged.

    Everytime I read some guy online describing himself as a “beta” and heaven forbid a “shlub” I marvel that this person doesn’t realize what they are doing to themsleves.

    So Deti, cut that out please. You’re married to a woman I assume you love. You SMV doesn’t really matter outside your home. And your words can be a source of discouragement to younger men.

    @SD:

    Good insights about your son.

  199. Christina

    Piggy backing off elspeth and some encouragement to sd’s son, I was the weirdo attracted to semi over weight, nerdy, dorky, “nice”, and funny types… especially the funny part.

    There are girls out there who like this stuff… but they are generally the ones no one sees because they don’t call attention to themselves… which I will cede is a complete departure from the majority of women out there falling on their faces trying to get alpha dog’s attention (which apparently works in getting all men’s attention). There are some who would rather retreat into a book about love than compete for it by making a spectacle of themselves.

  200. earl

    “If, as a guy with a “brain”, you don’t snag a wife during College or Graduate School, you’re up a creek without a paddle.”

    If that was the case then then mean marriage age wouldn’t be going up.

    Besides in college you barely have much more value than a man than high school…it only gets better the older you are. Women seem to think they have those privileges too when they really don’t.

    If THEY don’t snag a husband in college…they are going up a creek without a paddle.

  201. Elspeth

    There are some who would rather retreat into a book about love than compete for it by making a spectacle of themselves.

    That was me. If my husband hadn’t been so bold I might still be on retreat in my books.

  202. Farm Boy

    There are some who would rather retreat into a book about love than compete for it by making a spectacle of themselves.

    Let me modify it for guys and bears,

    There are some who would rather retreat into a book than compete for love by making a spectacle of themselves.

    And by spectacle, much of that is nuclear rejection, but not all.

  203. Opus

    Cail Corbishev at 02.18 makes the excellent point that the balance between the sexes has in recent decades been tipped in favour of the female sex such that any action by a man can be spun as criminal. This demotivates men from pursuing females in the way they like to be pursued for fear of the consequences, and encourages women to – in his words – ‘outright torturing a man who wants her’. Cail means mental torture. Women thus become drunk on power they cannot resist but do not want.

    The picture of the world that Deti paints of female power without responsibility or accountability is one I recognise; a world where any average woman can as he says sleep with any guy who takes her fancy within the hour, and I have known women who do just that. Consider for example my friends fifteen year old daughter, who alternately berates the fact that she is ugly whilst posting highly provocative photos of herself on fb and vk which garner – so I am told – some fifty or so suggestive invitations form Turkish men and then bursting into tears at some indecent suggestion left by a male acquaintance whom she had obvious been leading on that the pair of them should indulge in oral sex.

    Stupid I know, but I always enjoy feeding SSM’s Hamster in the top right hand corner.

  204. alcestiseshtemoa

    imnobody00
    October 1, 2013 at 12:53 pm
    I imagine the joys of intimacy in a feminist marriage.

    FEMINIST HUSBAND: Honey, I’m feeling affectionate. I want to kiss you. Do you give me your consent?
    FEMINIST WIFE (a bit distracted): Yes, honey, I give my consent. Call the lawyer.

    Thirty minutes later, the lawyer is at home and he has drafted an agreement of consent which is 85 pages long. Both spouses read it. The lawyer explains the technicalities. Both spouses sign every page. The lawyer authenticate their signatures.

    FEMINIST HUSBAND (he is not in the mood anymore, but he proceeds): With all due consent, I am going to kiss you, my love (he start kissing her in an affectionate, non-sexual way).
    FEMINIST WIFE: Isn’t this wonderful? Having intimacy with mutual consent? Isn’t this exciting? I thank all these second-wave feminist for this!

    While kissing, the husband feels affectionate so he caresses his wife’s cheek.

    FEMINIST WIFE: What the hell are you doing???!!!! I have not given you consent to caress my cheek!!!!!!! You are a rapist bastard!!!!! Rape!! Raaaaaaaaaaaaape!!! (To the lawyer, who was about to leave the house) Call the cops!!!! Call the cops!!!!!!

    (Later, the husband is spending the night in prison while the wife is banging the pool boy).

    FEMINIST HUSBAND: I am a monster. I am a rapist. I hate myself. I shouldn’t have caressed her on her cheek. She had not given me consent. The agreement was clear. In page 57, clause 123, paragrah 3, it was stated that the cheek was off-limits. Only lip-to-lip kiss was allowed. I despise my entire gender. I am a testosterone-poised monster. Second-wave feminists were right to say all men are rapists.

    [ssm: This is hilarious! :) ]

    I liked the script. Terrific. Is it possible to make this into some theatrical play? Or even a YouTube clip? How about a small bit of animation?

  205. alcestiseshtemoa

    I went through a bit of shock when I first entered the sphere. I was stunned to learn that black women are considered universally unatractive.

    This reminds me. There was this attractiveness study by an Asian man named Satoshi Kanazawa, he was an evolutionary psychologist at London School of Economics and he said that black women were seen as unattractive by all other races (whether men or women). Asian women (most likely East Asian, followed by Southeast Asian, since South Asian women and Arab women aren’t that sought after) were picked as the cutest by men of various races (white, Arab, other, Asian, black). Somehow the highest ratings of male attractiveness went to black men, which I find deliberately odd (since general attractiveness tends to be shared by both sexes of an ethnic group).

  206. alcestiseshtemoa

    But yes, technically speaking rape has been watered down and has become a kind of joke. Yet, at the same thing it being a joke, it’s that vicious and can ruin lives. It’s like almost everybody as a whole has become worse off.

  207. Farm Boy

    It’s like almost everybody as a whole has become worse off.

    That would seem to be the goal of Feminism. They are very successful.

  208. Elspeth

    Alcestis (how are you by the way), I wasn’t really interested in getting bogged down on that particular topic.

    My overall point was that despite the realities of my daily life, the experiences I have had and the intereactions I have noted with men of various backgrounds throughout my life, I somehow bought into the notion that my ethnicity suddenly made me subpar. Based solely on the words of a select few words from a select group on people I will never meet.

    We err greatly when we do that. Look at Christina with her preference for (in her words) “semi over weight, nerdy, dorky, “nice”, and funny types.”

    The tendency online is for people to shout loudly: “If I don’t think someone is attractive, then no one else does either!” This is patently untrue and it scars people unnecessarily.

  209. alcestiseshtemoa

    Alcestis (how are you by the way),

    I’m okay.

    That would seem to be the goal of Feminism. They are very successful.

    Indeed.

  210. alcestiseshtemoa

    Opps. I meant I was replying to Elspeth and Farm Boy separately. Sorry if I caused any more confusions and problems.

  211. feeriker

    Elspeth said: Everytime I read some guy online describing himself as a “beta” and heaven forbid a “shlub” I marvel that this person doesn’t realize what they are doing to themsleves.
    So Deti, cut that out please. You’re married to a woman I assume you love. You SMV doesn’t really matter outside your home. And your words can be a source of discouragement to younger men.

    Deti will surely correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think he was describing himself here in self-deprecating and negative terms for the purpose of garnering sympathy from anyone. He was merely using himself as an example to describe how many (most?) “non-alpha” (in the sense in which this term is most frequently used here) men are perceived by the majority of women in today’s MMP/SMP and the values such attributes are assigned relative to the “choice” alpha males for whom most single women compete.

    My own physical characteristics are similar to those with which deti describes himself. As far as the current MMP/SMP is concerned, I too quite frankly couldn’t give a piece of dried rat excrement what those characteristics mean for me, as I’ve also been married (for nearly three decades) and thus have been out of the market for longer than that (and have zero interest in re-entering it even if I should find myself widowed or, heaven forbid, frivorced). My interest in it, like deti’s, is in preparing my male offspring (in this case my 11-year-old grandson to whom I am a father in loco parentis) for the realities of the MMV and SMV now and for the foreseeable future, and helping him protect himself from the most predatory aspects of it (even within the “Christian” community).

    So, again, to get back to the immediate topic at hand, when deti, I, and others making similar observations about the current MMP/SMP use terms like “beta schlub,” we’re not describing (or denigrating) ourselves so much as we are describing the perceptions of those like ourselves as expressed, verbally or otherwise, by the women who make up the MMP/SMP majority “customer base.”

    To repeat: I’m not even remotely concerned for myself where the current MMP/SMP, or what how anyone participating in perceives me; it’s for the sake of my male family members and closest friends who are either approaching marriage age or who are single adults that I care deeply about.

  212. sunshinemary Post author

    Deti will surely correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think he was describing himself here in self-deprecating and negative terms for the purpose of garnering sympathy from anyone. He was merely using himself as an example to describe how many (most?) “non-alpha” (in the sense in which this term is most frequently used here) men are perceived by the majority of women in today’s MMP/SMP and the values such attributes are assigned relative to the “choice” alpha males for whom most single women compete.

    Yes, it turns out you’re correct about that, as deti has explained to me in private correspondence, so my apologies to him for saying that I suspected him of trying to garner sympathy.

    On a side note, I am really busy today so I’m not going to put up the post I have ready to go because I don’t have time to monitor the comments properly. Have a nice Wednesday afternoon, dear readers.

  213. Elspeth

    Deti will surely correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think he was describing himself here in self-deprecating and negative terms for the purpose of garnering sympathy from anyone. He was merely using himself as an example to describe how many (most?) “non-alpha” (in the sense in which this term is most frequently used here) men are perceived by the majority of women in today’s MMP/SMP and the values such attributes are assigned relative to the “choice” alpha males for whom most single women compete.

    Well that’s good to know, because I wasn’t feeling much sympathy, frankly. LOL. It sounds to me as if he has a blessed life.

  214. Bike Bubba

    Can’t remember if it was Cane or Cail, but in regards to the question about who was disciplined, it was both men and women. There were also a few others who “defellowshipped” themselves before they could be removed.

    And the Southern Baptists? On the edge of evangelicalism for two reasons. First, the liberal/evangelical fights of the past few decades, and second, the fact that it’s one of the few baptistic denominations where a man is likely to worship in the building his great-grand-daddy built. Hard to remove that guy from fellowship with such memories, especially in the South.

    My experience is more GARBC, Conservative Baptists, and independent fundamental baptists–more or less the guys who got kicked out of the Northern Baptists in the 1920s for daring to believe the Bible. It’s definitely different.

  215. Bike Bubba

    One other note; it does appear that many of you have no experience with a church actually giving church discipline a try. I get it; I’ve seen it. That said, if you can point out recent cases where church discipline should have been attempted, but was not, send a note to your pastor detailing well-known cases and ask him; “Why are we not attempting Matthew 18 reconciliation at this church? Are you not aware the toll that unBiblical divorce takes on the spouses that are left, and the children?”

    As others (rightly) note, when someone sees a very real wrong with no perceived legal recourse, they will find other recourse.

  216. Christina

    Farm boy,

    Yes… men like that… they tend to be intelligent, thoughtful, and thought provoking. In my boundless days, I mentioned I would pick a book with philosophical implications and situate myself at an outside table at panera and try to appear as open to interruption as I could with the title prominantly displayed to attract those types. Give them something to talk about without casting for a safe topic. It didn’t work :p

  217. feeriker

    One other note; it does appear that many of you have no experience with a church actually giving church discipline a try. I get it; I’ve seen it. That said, if you can point out recent cases where church discipline should have been attempted, but was not, send a note to your pastor detailing well-known cases and ask him; “Why are we not attempting Matthew 18 reconciliation at this church? Are you not aware the toll that unBiblical divorce takes on the spouses that are left, and the children?”

    Been there, tried that, with three churches (that self-described as “evangelical” or “fundamentalist”). The usual response, when one brings up such concerns with the pastor, the church elders, or a meeting of both, consists of one of more of some variation of the following:

    1. “We can discourage divorce, but there’s nothing we can actively do about it. What goes on in [husband]‘s and [wife]‘s marriage is between them and God.”

    2. “[Wife] has told us that [husband] has been abusive. While we admit that there are no scriptural grounds for divorce due to abuse, we can’t in good conscience recommend that [wife] stay married to [husband] if he’s being abusive.

    3. “We can’t just shun our brothers and sisters who divorce. We’re all sinners in God’s eyes and if we de-fellowship everyone out there who is divorced, we’ll be a very small congregation and won’t be able to reach people who need the Word the most.”

    4. “[Husband] (or [wife]) isn’t a believer, so a divorce isn’t a big deal.”

    Number 1 is the “cop out” approach that, I suspect, is tied in more cases than not to my comment on number 3.

    Number 2 came up in a discussion five years ago with the pastor of a church (Church of God) that I attended in which the wife merely accused the husband of abuse, citing no specific examples of how he had been abusive. The same topic came up in a discussion last year with the pastor of the last church I attended (Baptist) in which he actually delivered a month-long series of sermons on marriage. To his tremendous credit, his message was entirely scriptural – except for one comment he made in discussing biblical grounds for divorce (basically, that adultery was the only grounds). He raised the hypothetical of one spouse enduring abuse at the hands of the other and said that in the event that one is enduring such abuse, the answer is not divorce (correct) but to “go to the civil authorities and let them handle the matter.”

    HUH? So, if I hear this message correctly, the answer is to have the abusive spouse arrested for DV, hopefully tried and convicted, then imprisoned, thus granting the other spouse a “de facto” divorce. Epic fail there, pal (whenever a pastor starts telling his congregation to engage civil authorities in matters of faith, it’s time to start looking for another church).

    Number 3 is the “do not mess with collection plate contents or butts in the pews” position.

    Number 4 is simply deliberately choosing to misread scripture, encouraging the divorcing party to give a “head start” to the scenario described in 1 Corinthians 7:15.

    I have come to believe that trying to enforce scriptural discipline, where marriage and divorce are concerned, in any formally incorporated “church” is an exercise in futility. Where ulterior motives are concerned (namely, “success,” as is increasingly becoming a priority in today’s corrupt corporate church), enforcing church discipline in accordance with scripture is not only not desired, but anathema to those in positions of church authority. (On this subject, OT but relevant, see this spot-on article. You might not agree with everything Baldwin says [I have my disagreements with some of his specific political philosophy], but his general take on the rot destroying today’s churches is, in my experience, absolutely incontestably accurate.)

  218. Bike Bubba

    Feeriker; suffice it to say that I”m hoping that my experience is more normative than yours–as I’m sure you are too–but the stats I have cited myself would indicate a fair number of “evangelical” churches being tolerant of divorce. Methinkns that’s why believers need to insist on church discipline being practiced.

    I certainly have seen Baldwin’s “CEO pastor”, though. Nothing against CEOs, but it’s not what a pastor is supposed to be.

  219. ExNewYorker

    Anyone familiar with Deti’s posting record at various sites can gather that he isn’t playing for sympathy or the like, but rather, is doing what any good messenger does, which is to tell the message. The message is unpleasant, and not surprisingly, gets strangely similar reactions from feminists and tradcons, which are variations of “shut up you whiner” (in some cases tinged with a bit of faux sympathy along the lines of “we know you’re right, but give it a rest”). If he repeats his message it’s mainly because some people are very hard headed about not listening.

    For those of us not a utopian religious community, his message is pretty consistent with what we see as well. These are the modern day SMP and MMP. Those of us who have sons and brothers have a responsibility to make sure they are aware of that, and don’t go out into the world unprepared. “Be wise as serpents and innocent as doves”: your average guy gets a lot of the latter, but very little of the former.

  220. chris

    Well, since I am divorced….

    You allow the divorced into church, yes. But they have disqualified themselves from leadership. I will not put myself forward for any teaching ministry, and (despite being an OK musician) do not take part in the music group. I help by putting chairs up and by taking my kids to church. I would take exactly the same approach with homosexual men or women, who are faced with the discipline of celibacy.

    Holy celibacy is a calling to be honoured, in the single, the widowed, and those who have been married and now are not.

    Remarriage if divorce was for a licit reason is OK (I know SSM disagrees with me) but the couple better spend a lot of time discerning this and not go physical beforehand. (Which, is, hard, and one thing the GF and I agree on).

    We should encourage cautious courting, discernment around betrothal, short engagements, aimpler weddings and lifelong marriages. And the broken should be advised to remain single until they have sorted their own shite out, for there is no innocent party in a divorce.

  221. nightskyradio

    Maeve – This is going to sound truly awful, but these women who promulgate the dangerous ideology of “sexual assault is whatever I think it is at whatever time I think it is” – need to be shunned.

    This is the same thing as wanting “a living Constitution” or “hate speech” codes – it never occurs to them that such fluid, mutable criteria opens them up to someone throwing a charge right back against them.

  222. Farm Boy

    it never occurs to them that such fluid, mutable criteria opens them up to someone throwing a charge right back against them.

    They will be in control, and everything will be totally awesome; so that won’t be a problem.

  223. Zippy

    ExNewYorker:
    The message is unpleasant, and not surprisingly, gets strangely similar reactions from feminists and tradcons, which are variations of “shut up you whiner” (in some cases tinged with a bit of faux sympathy along the lines of “we know you’re right, but give it a rest”).

    That must be it. It can’t possibly be that sometimes people disagree with Deti because something he said was actually wrong, or hyperbolic exaggeration, or an attempt to universalize his provincial personal experiences.

  224. RichardP

    @Farm Boy: “They will be in control, and everything will be totally awesome; so that won’t be a problem.”

    Queen Bee, anyone? This is sort of relevant to the thread. Awsome execution.


    Pentatonix – Royals

  225. deti

    Oh calm down, Zippy. Whatcha complaining about? You got to be the AMOG today. If you don’t pipe down that vein in your forehead is liable to pop.

    I wasn’t shown to be wrong; it was that your examples aren’t relevant to the discussion.

    Hyperbolic exaggeration is useful to drive points home, especially for some unfamiliar with the salient matters.

    As you can see from many of the comments today, while my personal experiences aren’t universal (which I never claimed), they don’t seem to be very provincial either.

    Here. You can have back that space in your head I’ve been occupying rent-free today.

  226. FuzzieWuzzie

    While Deti is a good advocate for the plight of the “beta schlubs”. for, the time being, they are taking it lying down. What happens when that isn’t going to work anymore?

  227. Artisanal Toad

    @Fuzzie

    Effectively you’re asking a power vs force question. Right now the women have the element of force on their side. Men have the power to refuse to play the game. Eventually it will wind up defaulting to power, because when power meets force power will eventually win every time.

  228. ExNewYorker

    “That must be it. It can’t possibly be that sometimes people disagree with Deti because something he said was actually wrong, or hyperbolic exaggeration, or an attempt to universalize his provincial personal experiences.”

    As for provincial experiences, I imagine his are probably more representative of real life than those of a tradcon Catholic in a non-tradcon America.

    There have been a lot of guys, from totally different backgrounds and experiences, who have seen that his “provincial personal experiences” have pretty much been a reflection of their own. If it’s a caricature, he’s a damn Picasso in his sketches. And useful in teaching our kids about the wolves that are out there in the world…

  229. Zippy

    Deti:
    Hyperbolic exaggeration is useful to drive points home, especially for some unfamiliar with the salient matters.

    As has been suggested, then, you’ve been engaged in hyperbolic exaggeration. So that is settled.

    By the way, as a modestly resourced beta shlub you’ve always been able to get sex as quickly and easily using your resources as a modestly decent looking woman using her looks. They are called hookers, and they’ve been around for time immemorial.

  230. Deti

    Never denied using hyperbole. The point is to illustrate and educate while having a bit of fun. Besides, hyperbolic or not, It wouldn’t resonate if it weren’t true.

    As for hookers, I wouldn’t know. Never used them or had to. Apparently I’m not as informed as others posting on this board about that subject.

  231. FuzzieWuzzie

    Artisanal Toad, Your comment deserves consideration in depth. Hopefully, the pendulum analogy holds.
    Zippy, resorting to mentioning hookers was beneath you. While hookers can provide sex for money, they cannot provide what the spirit thirsts for and that is acceptence.

  232. Zippy

    FuzzieWuzzie:
    Zippy, resorting to mentioning hookers was beneath you. While hookers can provide sex for money, they cannot provide what the spirit thirsts for and that is acceptence.

    Neither can PUAs. PUAs and hookers occupy symmetrical places in the modern amoral SMP.

  233. Zippy

    It is supposed to be some big deal, a salient rallying point of existential outrage running through the narrative, that most women can just go get sex any time they want, as long as they aren’t too picky about it.

    But the same goes for men. She just needs very minimal assets in the looks department; he just needs a little cash.

    None of this is even slightly pertinent to folks of either sex who are actually interested in doing the right thing and finding happiness though.

  234. Artisanal Toad

    @Zippy!

    I am shocked, shocked, I tell you, that you would recommend hookers. Trading cash for sex? Prostitution? Some of the nicest women I know married for money…

  235. sunshinemary Post author

    She just needs very minimal assets in the looks department; he just needs a little cash.

    That analogy would be valid, in my opinion, if prostitution were legal, but it isn’t. Therefore, it is probably still more difficult for a man to have immoral sex than it is for a woman. Still, I can’t shed too many tears over who finds it harder to engage in sexual sin.

    The more important question to me is this: can Christian men and women find decent spouses? This is what concerns me. And if they can’t, why? And why is the divorce rate for Christians so flippin’ high? That’s the other concern I have. Whether unmarried men and women with low morals can get members of the opposite sex to lie down with them concerns me not.

  236. an observer

    Feeriker,

    even within the “Christian” community

    Especially within the churchian community.

  237. deti

    Zippy:

    Word to the wise: When you libeled me and falsely accused me of having to resort to hookers for sex because of my self-description admittedly used for proving a point, you just admitted defeat and lost the argument.

    A hearty congratulations to you on your discovery of the beta argumentation equivalent of Godwin’s Law.

    I hereby dub the following “Zippy’s Law”:

    “When a participant falsely accuses his opponent of being so unattractive that he must resort to using prostitutes for sex, he has lost the argument.”

    Oh, the agony of your literally handing me, whom you obviously consider to be orders of magnitude beneath you, this argument on a silver platter.

    Why not call it a day on this thread, Zip? Better quit while you’re behind.

  238. deti

    Zippy:

    Kindly provide proof that I have ever used a prostitute. If you cannot do so, kindly state a public retraction of your false accusation against me that I have used a prostitute.

  239. sunshinemary Post author

    Wait, deti, respectfully, I think you’ve misread that. He’s saying that you, like any other man, have always had the ability to get sex on demand if you pay for it. I don’t believe there was anything about anyone actually doing this.

  240. an observer

    Earl,

    If THEY don’t snag a husband in college

    I went through college with christian careerist girls who. Even dated one of them. Twenty years later, shes a never married school teacher, raising other peoples children.

    I dont actively seek out schaudenfreude, sometimes its just unavoidable.

  241. sunshinemary Post author

    Wait, AT, I don’t think Zippy recommended using hookers. I believe he just pointed out that beta schlub men have the same opportunity to get sex as women do, just that women have to trade their looks for sex and beta men have to trade their cash for it. I don’t see where he recommended this or where he accused anyone of doing it.

  242. Zippy

    SSM:
    He’s saying that you, like any other man, have always had the ability to get sex on demand if you pay for it. I don’t believe there was anything about anyone actually doing this.

    Correct.

  243. deti

    SSM:

    Fair enough, but if that’s what Zippy meant, then let’s have him explain his words. He doesn’t need you to defend or explain his words and deeds. Let him gird up his loins and do so himself.

  244. FuzzieWuzzie

    Zippy, I don’t think that it is fair to hookers to equate them with PUAs. A girl taken in by a PUA hopes to find acceptence. For those confused about being “Shocked”:

  245. sunshinemary Post author

    And I’m not saying that I agree with Zippy that girls going home with guys from clubs is equivalent to men hiring prostitutes. I’m just saying that he did not recommend this nor accuse anyone of doing it.

    But let’s be sure: Zippy, would you mind confirming that you don’t recommend hiring prostitutes, and would you verify whether or not you are accusing anyone here of doing so?

  246. Pingback: The tree of knowledge and a girl called John | Zippy Catholic

  247. an observer

    Christina,

    I didn’t intend to scream “keep away, I bite.”

    If u are the same poster i remember from boundless days, i would have to disagree.

  248. Cautiously Pessimistic

    The more important question to me is this: can Christian men and women find decent spouses? This is what concerns me. And if they can’t, why? And why is the divorce rate for Christians so flippin’ high?

    I will chime in with Deti, as his experiences and observations are similar to my own. It is vanishingly rare to find a woman worth marrying in the church. Most women (and men) will leave the church once their parents can’t force them to go, and will not return until they’ve finished their rutting season and either have a family or have been used up. Those few that stay within the church are taught to be poor marriage material, with women encouraged to be strong-and-independent princesses with a superiority complex, while men are encouraged to be beta-chumps who actively repel potential mates through placation and emoting all over themselves. And this is why the divorce rate is so flippin’ high among Christians. Those married folks that do return to the church have their marriage undermined by churchian teachings, if they’re foolish enough to take what’s said in church seriously.

    Or the TLDR version: the church is toxic because it no longer teaches Christian values. They’ve been replaced by churchian/feminist values that look similar if the lighting is bad enough. And the congregants (and their marriages) suffer for it.

    [ssm: Well-said. I was in the second group, married folks returning to church who got bad marital advice. It nearly destroyed our marriage. They told my husband (rightly) to stop stepping out on me, but I didn't get a similar message about being a respectful and submissive wife. Instead, I absorbed a lot of wrong ideas about my spiritual superiority to my husband. I'm so glad I actually started paying attention to the verses in the Bible about how a Christian home should be ordered and how a Christian wife should relate to her husband. The Bible never steers us wrong.]

  249. FuzzieWuzzie

    SSM, back at 9:47 you asked:”can Christian men and women find decent spouses?”. While I can’t answer that one directly, it has been my observation that a motivated woman looking for a motivated man has a much easier time of it than the other way around. Why this is so, I can only speculate on. More motivated men?

  250. Zippy

    I don’t think that a slut going to a bar to hook up with a cad occupies the moral high ground over a john going to a hooker; nor does the cad occupy the moral high ground over the hooker.

    [ssm: Nor do I. When I said they were not equivalent, I mean they were not equivalent in relative ease of securing the transaction.]

  251. FuzzieWuzzie

    “How will I survive without everyone’s approval?”
    Just fine. We’ll all see each other tomorrow for more fun with words.

  252. sunshinemary Post author

    Gosh, how will I survive without everyone’s approval?

    There, there, don’t fret. If you are too devastated, you may beta orbit me if you like. Everyone else does.

    Oh relax people, I’m joking. Doesn’t anybody have a sense of humor around here anymore??

  253. Cautiously Pessimistic

    Doesn’t anybody have a sense of humor around here anymore??

    They’ve been disabled for the duration of the government shutdown.

    [ssm: LOL, well-played! I needed a laugh before heading off to bed.]

  254. Zippy

    Oh, my credibility is gone now. How ever am I going to keep generating all that manosphere consulting revenue? How will I manage to keep paying the hookers, now that Deti and the Herbtones have deflated my street cred?

  255. FuzzieWuzzie

    Zippy, not that it is any of my business but, the rhetorical gaffe of bringing ladies of negotiable virtue into the arguement is not like you. Is there something distracting you?

  256. Artisanal Toad

    @SSM
    The more important question to me is this: can Christian men and women find decent spouses? This is what concerns me. And if they can’t, why?

    I’ll take a stab at that. I’m 50 and considered above average in the looks department for my age. I’m considered to be an excellent conversationalist. I have amazing skills and I have independent income. To the extent I’m suffering sexual starvation it’s by choice because quite honestly, I can get sex any time I want and all of it from women I’ve met in church. If you don’t believe me I’ll send you an email with some of the selfies I’ve been sent by women that I’m actively ignoring.

    Marriage material, OTOH, where does somebody like me find a woman that’s marriage material? The number of middle-aged women I’d be interested in (34-50) for monogamous marriage is quite low. For me, it begins with why the woman is single. The majority I know divorced their husbands (something they had no authority to do) and so they are still lawfully married. A very few were abandoned by their unbelieving spouse, but I only know 2 that fit that category. I know a few widows, but there are problems there as well, especially with the grown or almost grown children who see it as an attack on Dad’s memory.

    Still, widows are far better than divorcees or single moms. With a single mom it’s either a case of thugspawn or perhaps worse and there are always issues. With a divorcee with children, the kids will hate you because you are what’s standing in the way of mom and dad getting back together, something virtually all children of divorce want. From their point of view parents are the adults that are supposed to solve problems, not create problems.

    There are other issues. Many of the women in that age group are either done having children from a biological standpoint or have had their tubes tied or simply don’t want children. In these cases, they typically have staked out a serious position in their career and it isn’t something they want to give up. And what about the children they already have and the father of said children and his rights to visitation? Problems abound.

    Assuming she’s actually eligible for marriage, the next question is whether she’s fit for marriage. That begs the question of fit for what kind of marriage. My experience is that I seldom if ever meet a middle-aged woman who is both eligible and fit for a monogamous marriage. Fit, as in doesn’t have the entitlement attitude, hasn’t sucked up the feminist doctrine and dogma, doesn’t consider herself to be spiritually superior to men because she’s female, I could go on. What about her deportment? So very few have the self-discipline to maintain themselves. A woman who’s let herself go a bit, if she’s willing to submit to my discipline I’ll have her in great shape in a matter of months. But there is a difference between a woman who has let herself go a bit and a decades-long hardened land-whale. I don’t know a single Christian woman who is both eligible and fit for monogamous marriage that I am attracted to in my age range of sixteen years.

    I know perhaps 7 or 8 reasonably attractive and submissive reformed sluts who are eligible for marriage, but they aren’t marriage material for a monogamous marriage because of the baggage train they travel around with. Assuming they’re sincerely reformed, a polygynous marriage with 3 or 4 of them would have a good chance of working because the dynamic would be so different that their pre-programmed baggage responses wouldn’t apply, but, then we’d be dealing with social issues and imagine how the interaction between the families would work during holidays. The other problem is they’re all convinced they’re great monogamous marriage material.

    Note- I am a Christian and my wife who divorced me because she wasn’t haaaaapy is a professing Christian. According to 1st Corinthians 7:10, she has “separated” herself from me and she is commanded to remain single or reconcile herself to me. 1st Peter 3:7 says “Husbands, live with your wives” and if she desired to reconcile herself to me I can’t say no. Nothing in Scripture says I can’t have more than one wife, and my 1st wife being in absolute rebellion against God and me and refusing to live with me and legally divorced from me, I am perfectly comfortable taking a second wife. The problem is I’d be defrauding my second wife if I didn’t explain to her that if wife #1 ever wanted to reconcile I can’t say no and I’d expect wife #2 to stand at the doorway with me and greet her with a smile.

    Obviously, that doesn’t go over very well with today’s modern Christian women, but I do know several Christian women who would be willing to marry in that situation… and I know a couple who would be more interested in a polygynous marriage than a monogamous marriage… I’m just not interested in any of them. I know a few Christian women who identify as bisexual and they’re open to a polygynous marriage, but for different reasons, obviously.

    So… at this point, it’s either throw morality to the wind and start servicing the lonely sluts in church, wait until I find that needle in the haystack who’s both eligible and fit for monogamous marriage, or gather my personal herd of cats and settle down into a polygynous cat-herding lifestyle. None of them seem like really great options. Ya know?

  257. Zippy

    FuzzieWuzzie:
    It isn’t a gaffe. Joking aside, I am quite serious about the hooker-cad John-slut symmetry. I just posted on it at my own blog.

  258. Farm Boy

    They’ve been disabled for the duration of the government shutdown.

    It is true. Humor is not essential

  259. Deti

    Neither I nor any “herbs” deflated your credibility or your “street cred”. You have only yourself to blame for that , o disciple of Godwin.

  260. deti

    Godwin Jr./Zippy:

    Interesting read over at your place.

    Even your kindred spirit/protector/internet tough guy Cane Caldo doesn’t have your back on your john/slut analogy.

    All the words spilled; and you still can’t see the problem, can you?

  261. Cane Caldo

    @Deti

    Even your kindred spirit/protector/internet tough guy Cane Caldo doesn’t have your back on your john/slut analogy.

    You ate your Wheaties today, didn’t you?

    I respect Zippy quite a bit; as Internets go. He’s one a handful of people who, when we disagree (which is not infrequent), I think very hard about why we disagree, and wonder if I shouldn’t reconsider.

    As for your comments…well, I’ll do you yet one more favor. Ready?

  262. deti

    Cane:

    Zippy sent the muscle to do his dirty work, eh?

    Say what you have to say. I respect your opinions which are usually well thought out. Let’s have it.

  263. Artisanal Toad

    @infowarrior1
    Achan was an example of an individual who disobeyed God, but there is a far better example of corporate responsibility.

    You might be interested to meditate on Numbers 25. Note first that because it was a social epidemic, God told Moses to take the LEADERS of the people and crucify them before the entire assembly of the Lord the following morning. Note second that Moses caved, didn’t obey and instead went to the leaders God had sentenced to death and told them to put to death everyone who had joined themselves to Baal Peor.

    God is not mocked, His anger burned and He sent a plague into the camp. By the time Phinehas showed everyone what kind of cajones he had, the plague killed 24,000. Achan’s sin caused thirty six to die. The disobedience of Moses at Peor caused 24,000 to die, but keep in mind that God said to punish the leaders because of the sin of the people.

  264. Artisanal Toad

    @infowarrior1
    Why do we have so many unregenerates in the church? Is it because we departed from the gospel?

    I think I just answered that, unless I’m one of the unregenerates you’re referring to, but in general it’s because the leadership isn’t held accountable for the problems in the assembly. They who teach are held to a higher standard. I don’t have the hour it would take to listen to the vid, can you give me the cliffs notes?

  265. AnonymousManosphereBlogger

    Never thought I’d see the day we had a CATFIGHT in the manosphere with the likes of Deti and Zippy.

    rrRRRRRAAAAAAAWWWWWWRRRRRRRRRrrrr!

    Get a hold of yourselves, MEN.

    [ssm: I don't think it's a tomcat fight. I think they genuinely disagree. It's just that this happens to be a topic with which they've both had experience. No married man wants to abstain, but they've both had to, for different reasons, and they both dealt with what I can only assume was a miserable situation in different ways. I suppose having to do something like that leaves one rather firm in one's convictions about the best way to manage the situation. For my part, I see the benefit in both positions. Different situations will call for different tools.]

  266. nightskyradio

    SSM – Doesn’t anybody have a sense of humor around here anymore??

    I sold mine last weekend for two bucks to get one last hit of Blue Sky. That’s what the final episode of Breaking Bad cost on Amazon.

    I’m honestly surprised and a little hurt you would ever think I could possibly lose my sense of humor. Twisted as it might be. I thought you knew me better by now. *sob*

    [ssm: Ha, well, except you, natch.]

  267. foo

    I know how the actual assault occurred.

    She is a terribad lover and caught an unsuspecting male in her web of sluttery; he was paying attention to her at first but the terribad sex was becoming monotonous and boring; he wondered what the score was and turned the television on whilst enduring terribad sexual activity; he turned the TV off and turned is attentions back to the grim task at hand.

    See, at first she had the sexual attention of a guy she was interested in and her feelgoods were happy. Then her feelbads were hurt because he was losing interest in her. Then her feelgoods were happy again because his attention had returned.

  268. tbc

    And why is the divorce rate for Christians so flippin’ high?

    Because Christians live in a cultural context that shapes them more than they are willing to admit — which is actually not a problem in some respects. We are creatures of our cultural environment which has, for the last 200 years or so, exalted a romantic notion of marital love and love in general, as being the validation for relationships. Even in the manosphere and the para-manosphere (since SSM is decidedly NOT manosphere) terms such as ‘tingles’ and ‘LAMPS’ more or less refer to those things which are indicative of romantic love in the broad sense.

    It is not possible to swim in these cultural waters from the time of our great-great-great-great-grandparents and not be thoroughly affected.

    Not inconsequentially, this rise in the dominance of romantic love as the measure of a relationships’ validity took place concomitantly with a rapid increase in wealth and economic productivity. Therefore it has become increasingly possible to separate marriage from economics. Sure, it is economically optimal for a couple to stay together, but it isn’t necessary. It has been quite a long time, long before the advent of no-fault divorce laws, that divorce meant economic disaster for a woman or a man.

    So “love” becomes the only thing holding a couple together — and for two centuries Christians have been fighting a rearguard action against a socio-cultural and economic system that offers little support for Biblical marriage. Seen in this light, the ‘churchians’ and the ‘pua/gamers’ are offering the same thing in different packages: do something, anything to keep the tingles going because that is the only thing holding your marriage together. Now the gamers may be more accurate in their prescription for what will generate tingles, but they are both dealing with symptoms and not with the disease itself

  269. Maeve

    Wow – you take one night off the web……. my goodness!

    Totally unrelated to anything at all on this thread…. I made Danny’s Polpette(s) for dinner last night and they were truly sublimely delish!

    [ssm: Oh, I made them several weeks ago, and we really liked them. I stuffed them with prosciutto. My only recommendation is to reduce the salt that you add to the meat, especially if you add prosciutto. Mine were a little too salty, so I made some plain white rice to go with them to cut the saltiness.]

  270. Elspeth

    Seen in this light, the ‘churchians’ and the ‘pua/gamers’ are offering the same thing in different packages: do something, anything to keep the tingles going because that is the only thing holding your marriage together.

    I recently read a post (can’t remember where I was) where the authoress was taken to task for extolling the power of commitment over romantic love. I stayed out of it, but she had a point. Without commitment, marriage cannot last because romance always waxes and wanes. The fact that we canflate romance with love and discount the Biblical description of love is yet another problem within “Christian marriage”.

  271. Opus

    Sure, I have employed the services of working girls, and frankly they have an understanding and acceptance of male frailty and don’t freak out the way a wife or girl friend might, if you fancy doing … that. They vary but on balance I like them.

    It is a lot easier and also probably cheaper to decide, as I might any second now, to use their services again than to go out on the prowl whether the Street, the Bar, or Church if sexual satisfaction or release is what I am looking for. Even the strike rates of the PUAs is abysmal – at least compared top what any average female can effortlessly achieve. Game has its limitations.

    There is however a qualitative difference between a man using the services of a Prostitute and a woman using those of a Gigolo. As, at best, I regard myself as a Cultural Christian (and even then I probably overstate the case – all I mean is that I am assuredly not Hindoo or Musselman or Budhist) I happily do not raise the bar to some, not perhaps, high level but at which I am going to go crashing through it, as I fail to live up to Christian ideals – no wonder all Catholics are sinners. Anglicans and Episcopalians having a more tolerant attitude (so I hear) regard the Ten Commandments much as one does an examination paper, with only seven out of ten needing to be attempted. I agree and will eventually decide what seven those are to be.

    I can’t believe the dust-up between Deti and Zippy is a case of ‘lets you and him fight over me’.

  272. katmandutu

    “I recently read a post (can’t remember where I was) where the authoress was taken to task for extolling the power of commitment over romantic love. I stayed out of it, but she had a point. Without commitment, marriage cannot last because romance always waxes and wanes. The fact that we canflate romance with love and discount the Biblical description of love is yet another problem within “Christian marriage”

    Yes, Elspeth, I read that post too.
    The woman who attacked Margery for extolling the power of commitment over romantic love, just has no understanding of what a good and loving marriage really means.

    She herself is divorced, and is currently in the feel good phase of a relationship based solely on romantic love.

    Has not experienced the hard yards of a committed and loving marriage that does have its ups and downs..

    It is easy to wax lyrical about the feel good stuff.

    The true test, is committing yourself to your spouse in the good times and the bad times. Growing together in God’s love.

    Sticking with your spouse through thick and thin, as God ordained marriage to be.

    This woman knows nothing about the biblical description of love.

    How could she?

    She is not even married!

  273. Farm Boy

    I’m not the typical survivor

    A survivor she is.

    As if there was any doubt that she would make it through alive.

  274. Farm Boy

    The other problem is they’re all convinced they’re great monogamous marriage material.

    Women have all the power in their teens and twenties, and develop bad habits as a result.

    Difficult to undo, this is.

  275. Farm Boy

    I think they genuinely disagree.

    Short Answer: Self-mastery is great, but it is not enough to overcome the legal environment where women hold all the cards.

    Caveat Emptor

  276. Farm Boy

    monotonous and boring

    The ultimate sin that a modern man can do.

    Only a wealthy society can afford this.

  277. hurting

    tbc October 3, 2013 at 4:05 am

    One very slight quibble…

    Yes, post-divorce (and prior to remarriage), both men and women are necessarily worse off economically than they would have been had they remained married. But from a contractual equity standpoint, in the great majority of all divorces (and today they are all, effectively ‘no-fault’), women are typically comparatively better off if only because they shed all of their obligations to the contract while the man typically retains a sizable share of his.

    A woman who divorces and remarries could theoretically improve her financial standing assuming she’s able to land a new husband of comparable earning power.

  278. hurting

    The SMP/MMP as described even hyperbolically by Deti fairly closely comports with what I have observed going back as far as my college years in the late 80′s.

    I do not see Deti’s sharing of some of his personal travails as pleas for sympathy or whining per se.

  279. RichardP

    @Opus: “Anglicans and Episcopalians having a more tolerant attitude (so I hear) regard the Ten Commandments much as one does an examination paper, with only seven out of ten needing to be attempted. I agree and will eventually decide what seven those are to be.”

    The Law of Moses – from which come the 10 Commandments – was given only to the Children of Israel. It was given to no one else. The Gentiles (New Testament Church) were/are bound only by the four requirements listed in Acts 15:20 – which are subsets of the Noahide Law. Any church that does not teach this cannot be considered a New Testament church. See my quotes from the New Testament below.

    If you seriously are interested in how you are not bound by the Law of Moses, read through these two links for an introduction to this. If you already know all of this, then nevermind.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Moses
    —————————–

    Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. (Romans 2:14; NIV)

    The following quotes are from Acts 15: (NIV) The early leaders, who were defining the form of the newly-emerging Christian Church, met in Jerusalem and decided that, indeed, the Law of Moses did not apply to the Gentiles (non-Jew).

    5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

    6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear [the Law of Moses]? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

    13 When they finished, James spoke up. “Brothers,” he said, “listen to me. … 19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.

    That’s it. No 10 Commandments. But abstain from sexual immorality.

  280. Suzanne

    Sunshine Mary “And not only that, but I don’t believe any man desires to take his wife against her will. I just don’t believe this happens, I really don’t.” Utter tosh Sunshine Mary, complete and utter tosh, of course it happens. To deny is ignorant in the extreme

    Elspeth , you said: “I actually know quite intimately two women who were married to abusive men and of all their stories, never once did they say their husbands forced themselves onto them. Not even once” oh okay, so you know two women who never had this happen to them ergo it never happens to another married female in the world. Sorry, but I can’t agree with this kind of logic.

    In fact there seems to be quite a few illogical conclusions here based on “well I don’t know anyone that that has happened to and it has never happened to me” not a very sound way in which to draw conclusions on important matter. I’m pretty sure you never bore witness to Christ’s resurrection yet you believe this is happened. I’m sorry but you’ll have to do better than this! Read ‘Case studies in family violence’ by Ammerman and Hersen (2000)

    Velvet, you said: “That’s just the thing, it’s not familiar to virtually any married female. We’re called wives, by the way.” Firstly I quite clearly qualified my example as extreme. Secondly, thanks for the tip, I would never have known that married females are called wives. Funny how you don’t correct others here that use the term ‘married woman/female’ including SSM herself.

  281. nightskyradio

    Suzanne – Please may I ask a question as I’m having a hard time understanding the rationale behind the following statement: “It goes without saying that marital rape is not even a thing. Consent was given when she said, “I do.” Marital rape laws are a new thing in human history, only a decade or two old in some states. They should be repealed”? . Please consider the following scenario no doubt familiar to many married females: physically abusive husband comes home drunk, punches the crap out of their wife and then, maybe when she is half unconscious, violently and anally rapes her causing severe internal injuries. Extreme example but it happens, please don’t deny that it does. Is this ok with you, does this sits quite comfortably with your moral compass?

    That isn’t rape, that’s domestic violence and/or felonious assault. Speaking in a strictly pragmatic sense here, tacking a rape charge onto that is most likely pointless.

    The key element is not that the man penetrated his wife without permission, but that he caused severe physical injury to her, much of it with no sexual aspect whatsoever (“punching the crap out of her”). The rape charge would only apply to the non-consensual sex, not the violence, and non-consensual sex is not as great a danger to the community at large as a dude who swings his fists around when he’s drunk and lands people in the hospital.

    The rape charge would be filed separately from the DV or assault charges. As often as not, cases with multiple charges end up dismissing one or more of the lesser charges in order to focus on the greatest charge(s). As shown above, rape would definitely be a lesser charge.

    In some states (I believe it’s now all of them), a DV charge automatically triggers the issuance of a restraining order. Rape does not. The judge can issue such an order in a rape case, but there’s no guarantee that he will. If one of the charges is probably going to be dropped, better the rape charge be dismissed, or never filed. Due to the highly specific manner in which you laid out this example, a DV charge has more teeth by far than a rape charge.

    You said yourself that this is an extreme example. Should general laws be written based on extreme (and therefore much rarer) cases? As the saying goes, hard cases make bad law.

    Of course, none of this really matters because your hypothetical scenario goes far beyond the bounds of just marital rape.

  282. Christina

    An observer – actions don’t always display intent.

    And lets make it clear, I wasn’t trying to pick up men off boundless (though I very nearly did). I was engaging in conversation and discussion on similar subjects we discuss here. It took me a while to figure out that a debating woman is intimidating and prickly… by then I wasn’t commenting there anymore.

  283. Lee Lee Bug

    @nightskyradio

    A sexual assault charge can be added to a domestic assault charge, or an attempted murder charge, or any other charge related to a dv case, at least in my state. Here’s a link to a horrifying dv story that appeared in yesterday’s paper: http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/article/20131003/NEWS02/310030038/Police-in-James-Scarola-case-Burlington-Vermont-say-evidence-indicates-sex-assault

    In this case, the attempted murder charge will probably land the husband in jail for life if he’s convicted, but rape charge could add a few more years if he’s given the chance for parole.

    A number of years ago I covered a murder trial where the defendant had broken into his wife’s apartment (they were separated) and raped her before murdering her. He was charged with second-degree murder and sexual assault and convicted on both charges.

  284. Elspeth

    Bottom line Suzanne:

    Violent physical assault is just that and should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

    Rape does not occur between consenting adults and marriage is consent, a default yes. For life.

    Only if the couple is legally separated and going through a divorce can she legitimately accuse her estranged husband of rape.

    That’s my position, and I’m sticking with it.

  285. FuzzieWuzzie

    Farm Boy, I like the hammster! She desrves a name of her own. Come to think of it, she is not causing any trouble for anyone.

  286. sunshinemary Post author

    @ Fuzzie and Farm Boy

    Please use the open conversation page that I created for you to use for this kind of stuff. Comments about Lindy West, M&Ms, hamsters, that kind of thing…that should all go in the open thread. Thanks!

  287. OffTheCuff

    Zip: “By the way, as a modestly resourced beta shlub you’ve always been able to get sex as quickly and easily using your resources as a modestly decent looking woman using her looks. They are called hookers, and they’ve been around for time immemorial.”

    Wow, are you MegaMan from hooking up smart. He always trumpeted hookers as the solution for betas. I mean, other than being extremely expensive, illegal, and subject to heavy shaming by everyone you know, what’s not to like about hookers?

    “Sorry, Mrs. Topher. I can’t make it to Ralph’s parent-teacher conference this week, as I have an appointment with Kitty The Dominatrix at that time, and its a long trip, and I have year contract and monthly rate I can’t lose.”

  288. hoellenhund2

    Don’t listen to Megaman or any other white knight attack dog of Slutting Up Smart. It goes without saying. Know your enemy, the Feminine Imperative.

  289. nightskyradio

    Lee Lee Bug – I was responding to one specific situation put forth, not whether sexual assault charges can or should be added to DV charges in general. I mentioned the specificity of the scenario in my comment, as well as the issue of using extreme cases to write law. Further, I was pointing out that the situation described went far beyond the bounds of marital rape, and therefore was not relevant to Mary’s statements regarding such upthread.

  290. Zippy

    OffTheCuff:
    Actually I don’t recommend either hookers or fornication for anyone. I recommend against any sex outside of lifelong monogamous marriage, ever, period; and divorce is a fiction which does not morally authorize sex with a new partner.

    I’d reiterate the point I actually did make if I thought it would make a difference. But I don’t, so I won’t.

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  292. OffTheCuff

    Z, I followed the conversation over at your blog, and noted other people made the point I was. They may be a moral equivalence from your religious perspective, but I simply don’t care about that – they are light-years apart in practicality, sustainability, and peer judgement.

  293. Pingback: Stuff feminists say: kindergarten boys who act like jerks are guilty of sexual assault. | Sunshine Mary

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