Scary reality: my response to Amanda Marcotte’s criticism of my essay.

In Simple Answers To Overwrought, Hysterical Questions, published yesterday at Raw Story, Amanda Marcotte took exception to my essay Feminism turns women into maternal prostitutes and johns.  The first thing my husband laughingly said when he read it was, “I notice she didn’t respond to what you, a woman, wrote but only to what the alpha male you quoted said.  Women are all the same.”  We laughed about that, but this morning I’ve decided to address Ms. Marcotte’s criticism.  First, let us read her brief disagreement:

This irate ranting from a woman who wants the rest of women to stop being all feminist and shit.  She quotes this supposed “wisdom” from a male reader:

Feminists lost long ago. Men are in control – at least the ones that understand. We get to call the shots – now instead of being able to keep house, have children, and cook (very, very few women can cook these days) women are ONLY sex-objects. It is the only thing they have to offer to a man, that will get a man’s attention and to hold it for a while. And we don’t have to marry them to get it [...]

He goes on to gloat that women totally do it now, assuming that it’s because they’re suckers and not because they get any pleasure out of it. To be fair, I have no doubt that the highly exaggerated number of women he’s gotten into bed probably didn’t get any pleasure out of the experience, so his anecdotal data set might be the problem here.

Unasked question: Why should women want the attention of men who see them as nothing more than unpaid servants and semen toilets?

If he had bothered to ask this question, he might see why his gloating rant makes no kind of sense. He starts with the assumption that male attention is so precious that women will and should subject themselves to any kind of degradation to get even a scrap of it, even if the man providing the attention is a terrible misogynist who sees women as subhumans whose only purpose is to clean after him and drain his cock without anything in return besides occasionally acknowledging her existence. This is a ridiculous idea, albeit one that is widespread amongst anti-feminists: That women need male attention, no matter how degrading it is, and therefore should do whatever we can to get it.

Even given the briefest of examinations, this premise falls apart. The alternative to having a hateful misogynist around who expects you to clean up after him, accept his ranting about how women are a repulsive subhuman class whose only purpose is service to men, and to masturbate him without any hope of sexual pleasure yourself is simple: Not being with such a man. As many feminists can tell you, there’s a really pleasant alternative: Men who like women and like to hang out with us and aren’t just tolerating us in exchange for sex and housework. But even if, like this commenter, you believe that such men don’t exist, well, so what? Being alone is better than being with a man who thinks you’re part of a degraded class put here to serve him. No matter how much misogynists may rant, they can’t get around this inherent problem in their philosophy, which is that “alone” is always a superior alternative to their company.

Ms. Marcotte’s unasked question – Why should women want…? - in response to my male reader’s comment is interestingly phrased.  If you reread his comment, you will notice that he wasn’t advising women to want anything.  That is because he does not much care what women want.  After forty years of feminism, men are waking up to the realization that modern women do not care what they want, and some men are beginning to return the favor.

My reader’s comment had nothing to do with what women want but rather with how men perceive women.  Anger at men for how they perceive women is a recurring theme in feminism, from the fat acceptance movement to the slut-positive movement.  In the comment thread on Ms. Marcotte’s article, one feminist reader responded:

I do not need to define myself by what opinion a man has of me, I actually like myself enough to value my own opinion of me.

Fine, but that begs the question: if women are so secure in themselves and, thanks to feminism, don’t need to define themselves by what men think of them, then why are feminist women so angry about the low opinion the majority of men have of them?  Why do they get so angry upon hearing that men see slutty women as only useful for sexual activity?  You cannot simultaneously say that you don’t care about someone’s opinion of you while at the same time being enraged by their opinion of you.

One of the core pillars of feminism seems to be trying to control how men think about women.  We want to be seen as smart, so by fiat order we’ll command men to see us as equally intelligent.  We want to be seen as having the ability to be sexually promiscuous, so we’ll command men to hold a positive opinion of sluttery.  We want to be seen as beautiful at 200 pounds, so we’ll command men to find us hot despite our obesity.

But it doesn’t work.  Men don’t like slutty women for anything other than sex, as the last comment thread here rather conclusively proved.  Men don’t find fat women attractive.  Men don’t like bitchy, loud-mouthed mannish feminists.  Men don’t care about women’s supposed careers.  All the commands in the world will only cause men to keep their opinions quiet, but it does not change those opinions.  All the attempts in the world at resocializing men to like what feminism has turned women into will always fail because it works against the natural order of things.

And this, I believe, is why feminists hate the manosphere so very much.  They have to hear that they have failed; they have silenced men in the public arena, but online all’s fair in love and war and free speech, and they have to hear, possibly for the first time, what men really think.  And they hate it because it is scary.  It is scary to imagine that men will stop doing what they are told by women to do.  It is scary to feminists in particular because, instead of being dependent on one man like I am, they are dependent on men as a group to fund them.

Men pay the majority of taxes in the United States.  Without men’s taxes, student financial aid for Women’s Studies degrees will dry up.  Without men’s taxes, baby mamas will starve.  Without men financing it, women who are being placed into corporate leadership simply as a response to affirmative action and who then quit these jobs after a year to write tear-filled articles in the Atlantic about work-life balance, demanding even more subsidies from men to ensure that women never need to suffer the consequences for their stupid choices, will cease.  I only have to manage my husband’s opinion of me in order to secure his provisioning; feminists have to control all men’s opinions of them in order to secure their provisioning.  Hence the need to regulate how men perceive women, and a noticeable outpouring of fire ants from the feminist colony any time a group of men starts to express negative views of modern women.  The reality of men’s views is very scary to women.

You have not converted a man because you have silenced him.

- John, Viscount Morley, On Compromise, 1874.

247 thoughts on “Scary reality: my response to Amanda Marcotte’s criticism of my essay.

  1. sunshinemary Post author

    In the past, women behaved properly because they wanted to be seen in a good light by men. They wanted this because they knew they needed men both to survive and in order to be happy. But it was frustrating because we had to rein in our worst tendencies.

    Feminism was supposed to free us from men’s judgement. Feminism was supposed to allow us to act out our worst tendencies while simultaneously forcing men to suck it up and like it. And because they were able to influence both the cultural narrative and the legislature, feminists made it difficult for men to voice their true opinions. Thus feminists imagined they had won; they believed they had succeeded in making men actually like women at their worst.

    The manosphere has been a huge wake up call for feminists because they have to confront the horrifying reality that they have utterly and completely failed. Men do not like fat sluts. They did not like them then and they do not like them now and they never will like them.

  2. Cail Corishev

    You know, the most annoying thing about liberals these days isn’t their politics; it’s that they’re all trying to be sooooo damn clever. They all want to be Jon Stewart. All that dripping-with-contempt and aren’t-we-so-smart might be cute on TV, but reading it is just exhausting.

  3. Cail Corishev

    He starts with the assumption that male attention is so precious that women will and should subject themselves to any kind of degradation to get even a scrap of it, — Marcotte

    I must assume at this point that she has never met any women. Heck, even in my bluest of blue-pill days, I knew many women were this way. I just believed there were good girls out there somewhere who weren’t, or who would stop being that way if they met the right Nice Guy.

    If you read between the lines, this is fear. This is looking for juuuust a moment at reality, and then trying to dispel it by naming it just long enough to ridicule it. Appropriately enough, it’s witchcraft as politics: learn the name of your enemy so that you can cast a curse on it.

    Her fear is that this longing to subject herself to a man exists within her own soul, either without her awareness or only peeking through on those late nights after several daiquiris, and will never go completely away. Even worse — that she might succumb to it someday, and suddenly wake up to find herself wearing an apron and humming a happy tune while she makes lunch for a man. The horror!

  4. susanbotchie

    Misogynists intimate the stuffing out of this fat old broad. But cowering is not an option – not taking a stand will lead to sin (sure don’t need to add to that list).

  5. sunshinemary Post author

    Cail:

    Her fear is that this longing to subject herself to a man exists within her own soul, either without her awareness or only peeking through on those late nights after several daiquiris, and will never go completely away

    Yes! Yes. One of the first conversations I ever had with another woman in the mansophere was with Jacqui and went like this:

    Deti had written:

    [...] 3. Claim: Women want soft, kind, gentle sex and need to be treated with delicacy in the bedroom. Missionary position is the only appropriate position.
    Truth: Women like soft sex only sometimes. Most prefer vigorous sex and really get off on it. And most women really like the rear entry or “doggie style” position because it requires her trust and submission. Most also like woman on top because it lets her control most of the movement.

    4. Claim: Women want to be equals in the bedroom and they don’t like giving BJs.
    Truth: Women want a man to dominate them in the bedroom. Most are not into BDSM, but most women want to be told when it is time for sex, they want to be told what to do and how to do it. Most women like to give BJs if they are told to do it and how to do it. [...]

    And I responded:

    …personally I prefer my husband to dominate me in general, not just sexually, and I suspect other women feel the same. Actually, I came to the realization about two years ago that the more dominant my husband behaved toward me, the more I was interested in having sex with him. When I realized that I felt that way, I was desperately ashamed of it and thought there was something wrong with me. It wasn’t how I’d ever been told women were supposed to feel. To conventional wisdom, I was supposed to be interested in sex if he had done the dishes for me and brought me flowers. I like flowers and I like having help with the housework once in a while, but I did not find those things to be connected to my sexual desire for him. I thought I was some kind of freak when he started to TELL me how things were going to be and suddenly I couldn’t my dress off fast enough.

    And Jacqui agreed:

    I could have written your comment above including the part about feeling ashamed and wrong for wanting to submit to my husband completely and yes, lustily.

    To me it was an enormous relief to admit that I wanted to be subject to my husband. Imagine how awful it must be to be someone like Amanda Marcotte, who has gone all in on the feminist position and committed herself fully to it, all the while knowing that what she wants is a man who will put her over his knee for acting like such a horrid brat and then tell her to go make him a sandwich. I almost feel sorry for her and women like her. But it’s a hell of their own making.

  6. earl

    “You have not converted a man because you have silenced him.”

    If anything that means the man has wised up. He still has the same opinions of these women since the beginning of time…but now he is in mole or stealth mode because he can see the bombs before they blow up. And can choose whatever life he wants.

    Where have all the good men gone…underground.

  7. redpillsetmefree

    I agree 100% with everything you’ve said here SSM, both the column & your post column addendum comment, but I must admit…..I never thought of the feminist reaction as one that is fear based.

    Women have worked so hard for so long to convince us that they prefer going through life as independent hypersexual careerists, and that Cat Scratch Spinsterhood is to be desired over marriage and family. It’s obvious that that philosophy has failed so many hurting women that have arrived in their 40s and are miserable….but again, I never saw the fear.

  8. earl

    @redpill

    As a recovering fear addict myself…I can tell you the two reactions I had to ideas that didn’t fit my worldview.

    Depression and anger.

  9. Amanda

    Love love love my husband being in charge ( in everything:)!) I find it very freeing. I actually feel sad for women like Amanda Marcotte, because she has rejected God’s order and doesn’t realize it’s the only way she’ll actually be happy in this life.

  10. sunshinemary Post author

    I never saw the fear.

    Women are much more fearful than they let on. I had a conversation about this with The Shadowed Knight awhile back, which is when I realized that men don’t know how fearful we really are. The thought of losing my husband frightens me, and I remember Deti relating his wife’s terrified response to his threat to divorce her for being so disrespectful.

    Many feminists, below the surface, are scared little girls who feel out of control and lost. You can read this clearly in the spinster blogs. They still spout feminist platitudes, of course, but you can see the fear and loneliness in practically every word.

  11. Cail Corishev

    To me it was an enormous relief to admit that I wanted to be subject to my husband. Imagine how awful it must be to be someone like Amanda Marcotte — SSM

    Yes. What you call “being subject to,” she calls “degradation,” but that’s dishonest. She doesn’t mean real degradation; she means any semblance of hierarchy within the marriage. She considers you to be degraded simply by the fact that you are subject to your husband, regardless of what he ever does with that power.

    That calls back to the discussion of husbands commanding their wives to sin: for feminists like Marcotte and for the tradcons as well, any hierarchy that gives the husband authority over the wife degrades her, so they’re always looking for a way to give her a veto. To them, it doesn’t really matter what the command is. “Make me a sandwich” is completely degrading and would be recited in court to prove abuse in their world.

    Of course, the one area in which they sometimes admit they still want to be dominated is in sex, because it’s just too disappointing otherwise. But by the time they apply feminist process to it, they end up having to order a man to ravish them and tell him exactly what he can and can’t do, which ruins the fun. Having lots of sex-positive encounters with men afraid to dominate them probably explains a fair bit of feminists’ anger.

  12. earl

    “Many feminists, below the surface, are scared little girls who feel out of control and lost.”

    And because they are this way…they want to make sure everybody else is scared, out of control, and lost. Feminism wants everyone to be at the bottom of the barrel. Women fall for this bit easily…and a lot of men have taken the bait too. I realized I was one of them for a long time.

    Here’s what has helped me out…

    http://biblehub.com/luke/17-5.htm

  13. Scott

    This:

    “Imagine how awful it must be to be someone like Amanda Marcotte, who has gone all in on the feminist position and committed herself fully to it…”

    Plus this:

    “Love love love my husband being in charge ( in everything:)!) I find it very freeing. I actually feel sad for women like Amanda Marcotte, because she has rejected God’s order and doesn’t realize it’s the only way she’ll actually be happy in this life.”

    Will cause the unravelling. But because the system is so utterly feminized, to the point of it being law, the only way it will work now is if women stumble onto it and then are “in your face” about it.

  14. Stingray

    I was desperately ashamed of it and thought there was something wrong with me.

    Yes. 1,000 times, yes. I have always been rather naturally submissive and I thought something was wrong with me for a long time. So, the trouble I created in my marriage were me trying to fight against what my natural tendencies were. I was taught that something was wrong with me, so I tried to do right, to the frustration of both my husband and me. When I came to the sphere and finally figured out that I was fighting against everything that was actually right with me, the relief was wonderful and utterly freeing.

    On a side note, I miss Jacquie.

  15. thegreatshebang

    Marcotte completely misses that the so called “mysogynist” gave a formula for what he wants in a woman to NOT treat her as a sex object and commit to her. The “misogynist” says he sees no options from women.

    But the feminists demand that WOMEN have no choice and join together against men.

    It’s so twisted it would be laughable if it weren’t the primary force in the SMV.

    What must get to Marcotte is that WOMEN are doing feminist doctrine en masse and it’s not working. Men have easily and quietly moved on.

  16. Deep Strength

    @ Amanda, others

    Nowhere in the Scriptures does it say that we (Christians) will be happy. In fact, it says that Christians will often suffer for Jesus’ sake.

    The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control.

    Ain’t no happiness there. Happiness is a transient feeling of the heart and the heart is wicked. Women would do best to stop focusing on obtaining “happiness” because it leads to all sorts of immorality.

    At Peace with God and men would probably be a better term.

  17. Anonymous Reader

    All of the rantings of Marcotte rest upon the blank-slate, “nurture is all”, premise.

    * That men and women are exactly the same except women can have babies.
    * That estrogen and testosterone may well have effects upon muscle mass, but never upon brain structure.

    Feminism, like other strains of Marxism, trumpeted its “reality based”, “scientific” foundation from the 1970’s to the turn of the century. Look for all flavors of leftism to become more and more hostile to science, as science overturns pet shibboliths one by one – brain scans with MRI and PET being but one major source of trouble.

    Because if the “men and women are exactly the same” blank-slate notion is not there, then all of feminism, all the way back to Seneca Falls and beyond, collapses of its own weight. Women in combat? Women in most roles in the military? “Equality” in STEM? All of this is premised upon the nurture-is-all concept. Because if, for example, a superior ability to engage in spatial visualization is a requisite for success in some branches of science and engineering, and testosterone exposure for years and years influences the brain structure that makes it possible, that explains why so few women are in engineering.

    Now, there is one way to double down on feminism even after accepting that nature plays a role in human behavior, and that by going transhuman. However, I do not think that any significant number of women are really going to want to inject T on a monthly basis for years just to be able to compete in the nerd Olympics that is STEM. But some may well decide to try.

    Feminism is increasingly anti-science. So perhaps feminists should be referred to as preferring a “faith-based” approach to sexual differences, rather than “science based”?

    Hey, does this mean there’s a Feminist War on Science?

  18. Anonymous Reader

    CC
    You know, the most annoying thing about liberals these days isn’t their politics; it’s that they’re all trying to be sooooo damn clever. They all want to be Jon Stewart. All that dripping-with-contempt and aren’t-we-so-smart might be cute on TV, but reading it is just exhausting.

    I’m tempted to riff on this in terms of r / K strategy…clever words with no substance vs. not so clever words packed with meaning. But that’s a long discourse for another day.

  19. deti

    Today, the role of Captain Obvious is being portrayed by deti.

    Just Saying is the commenter who put up the “rant” Marcotte complains about. Now, JS is a player, he might be a PUA or a cad, I don’t know. But from experience there are a lot of women who act exactly as he describes. And he describes it so well and so floridly I have no doubt it’s from personal experience.

    Ms. Marcotte, perhaps you haven’t noticed this, but… lots of women out there seem to LOVE being semen toilets; as long as it is first class alpha semen being deposited therein. There are a lot of women out there who seem to be quite happy being semen toilets in exchange for some of JS’s attention. Not only that, we’ve discovered that pretty much every woman has the potential to rent herself out as a semen toilet, if the guy is alpha enough. So, men probably wouldn’t describe or treat such women as semen toilets if they didn’t love being semen toilets so much.

  20. thegreatshebang

    Marcotte also misses that Women actually OFFER sex. I’m in my early 40’s and women in college still offer me sex. The offer nothing else as in they don’t say I’d like to go out on a date and see if we’re compatible in marriage or if our careers are compatible or that I want a date to show you I can cook and raise children.

    Even women 25 to 45 generally don’t actually put something on the table besides sex.

    But at a bar, in public venues, and on the Internet women often offer sex.

    And that’s it. So what are men to do if that is all that’s on the table? What logical men always do which is take it at face value.

  21. Riddle

    “Hey, does this mean there’s a Feminist War on Science?”

    No, just those evil scientists contributing to the war on women by showing differences in in male and female biology.

    Regarding the OP, I’m always fascinated by how a simple, unadulterated, male opinion about women in our society sends the fire ants into panic mode. The fear they have of trying to control male opinions is very real, because it’s like trying to hold the chains of 100 pitbulls simultaneously. When one gets loose you better watch out.

  22. earl

    It’s perfectly ok for women to have an unbudgeable 200 point checklist for the Prince Charming they want. She is a special snowflake™.

    If a man has the nerve to say the 3 things he wants…LOOK OUT!

  23. sunshinemary Post author

    pretty much every woman has the potential to rent herself out as a semen toilet, if the guy is alpha enough.

    Agreed.

    lots of women out there seem to LOVE being semen toilets

    Which is why the whole dark triad/aloof jerk thing is taught on sites like Heartiste. It seems like women want to be treated like semen toilets, and there will always be men willing to oblige.

    Even married women, provided they are at least somewhat attracted to their men, find it thrilling to be sexually objectified by their husbands. It’s so much simpler just to admit the truth about these things: in lieu of flowers and gentle romance, most women would prefer their husbands to wink at them and say, “Bend over so I can get a good look.” In other words: AWALT. Sluts want to be semen toilets for lots of men; married women want to be semen toilets for one man, or at least light-heartedly treated that way in the bedroom.

  24. deti

    What Marcotte rails against as “unpaid servanthood” and being a “semen toilet” is actually the submission instinct hardwired into just about every woman. Marcotte uses slang and vulgarity to deride a beautiful thing that almost all women want – to submit to the protection of a dominant man, to rest easy in his strength, to trust in it, and ultimately to be conquered and absorbed by it.

    What this is really about is that Marcotte and her ilk want all the benefits of the hot alpha sex, but none of the tradeoffs, most notably among them submission. They want sexual domination from hot dominant men. But, they don’t want the tradeoffs that would go with it –

    –choosing this one man for life and forsaking all other men
    –trusting in her discernment to choose well and her family to help her with that
    –trusting this one man (and ultimately, God) to provide for her needs
    –giving up a large measure of her power
    –working WITH him instead of at cross purposes to him
    –subordinating her desires to the needs of her man and her children, ultimately to her enormous benefit

    Sluts going around letting players like JS pump and dump them and otherwise treat them like dirt are really saying “Please, I need a man to take charge so I don’t have to. I want him to refuse to put up with my shit. I want him to tell me how it’s going to be. Where can I find a man like that? Here’s one. Nope, I thought it was, but he’s not… oh, here’s another one… oops, he’s gone because he’s done with me….. this one is nice but he’s kind of a dirtbag….”

    This is a search for sexual domination without any of the submission that would naturally attend it. When she starts to submit it scares the hell out of her, and she pushes him away. Or if he’s a player, he’s long gone by then or cuts her loose the minute he sees it. She doesn’t REALLY want to be a semen toilet. She wants a dominant man for her own, to receive and take in his strength, and be taken by it.

    Contrast this with the chaste woman who marries a man she’s sexually attracted to. Within the safe confines of the marriage, she will act like the “semen toilet” Marcotte describes. But instead of it being vulgar and distasteful, it is holy and a thing of beauty. She is her husband’s courtesan. This wife is so hot for her husband she wants his dick any way she can get it. She wants him to penetrate her and ejaculate inside her so badly she can hardly stand it. She will do pretty much what he wants, when he wants and where, and she’ll absolutely love every minute of it.

    [ssm: Truth. And beautifully put.]

  25. Escoffier

    An ancillary point, perhaps, but part of the reason Marcotte et al so hate the manosphere is that they have done a phenomenal job of dominating, controlling and censoring all mainstream discourse. All the more remarkable given that they mostly lack the heavy-handed state powers that are typical in a tyranny. It’s quite an accomplishment, without parallel in history as far as I know, for a sort of miasmic mass to control discourse like this without also directly controlling the levers of religious and political authority. (E,g., the Romans actually had an office called the “censors” where we get the term. Or the religios authorites of the middle ages. Or the “ministries of information” in 20th century tyrannies.)

    The ‘sphere is a painful reminder that they have not completely succeeded. They’ve driven these ideas underground, which is not nothing, but they want to stamp them out altogether, to make them literally unthinkable. They haven’t done that (yet) and it’s infuriating to them.

  26. thegreatshebang

    What is kind of dumb is that a woman who crassly wanted to get married and be “taken care of” could make a man the following offer:

    Every day at 5:30 I will clap my hands and say “children, line up your father is coming home.” And all be beaming in a row when you walk in.

    Even Alphas marry and this would do the trick.

    But Feminists would rather eat spinster tears and abortion memories for 40 years than pull this stunt EVEN though they want the Alpha’s resources and social cred and secretly despise him anyway.

  27. deti

    Perhaps this desire for submission is why women universally describe rough, vigorous sex as pleasurable. In this act she sees, feels and experiences the full measure of her man’s strength and power, but at the same time this does not injure her in any way. She is literally taking that strength and power into herself and absorbing some of it and makes it her own.

    But to keep it, she has to give him something; and that something he wants is figurative ownership. She is his woman, no one else can have her, and she must do what he tells her.

  28. Farm Boy

    This irate ranting from a woman

    At least you are not a “hater”, the normal method used to dismiss a person and their thoughts.

  29. earl

    I would argue most players probably use some form of contraceptive or go old style Onan…so the slutty women aren’t really semen toilets but instead are more cock collectors.

    [ssm: Oh ho, that's right! They don't even get his semen, silly girls. How exactly is life better post-feminism?]

  30. Deep Strength

    @ Amanda

    Perhaps “happy” was a poor choice of words. “Content” maybe?

    I was trying to make some good Biblical analogies though. :P

    Contentment is certainly part of the Peace of God. “Blessed are the peacemakers for than shall be called sons of God” + “Shalom, peace with with you” + “The Peace of God which passes all understanding shall guard your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus.” Bringing “peace” to the world is essentially evangelism, and those that in Him and of HIm have that peace.

    The more I think about it the more I like Peace (in place of happiness) out of any of the fruits of the Spirit — love, joy, peace, patience/endurance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control.

    Perhaps Joy (as in the Joy of the Lord is my strength) as well.

    I think both Joy and Peace are the only fruits of the Spirit that directly address emotional state, as all of the others may only address them indirectly. Therefore, that is to what we are to strive for.

    This was a good discussion. Helped me learn more about the fruits.

  31. Cail Corishev

    Women are much more fearful than they let on.

    I get the feeling this is big, but I’m going to have to think about it. Sometimes it’s easy to see the fear, as when a woman is raving about how awesome it is to be single and independent and then she looks you in the eye and there’s that moment where she’s wondering if you’re buying it and you can see past the facade.

    But it’s interesting to think about how much fear is involved in a woman’s life. Not always that kind of deep, panicky fear, but just the underlying knowledge that a lot of stuff out there is dangerous to her. I don’t think most men have that; we just don’t think in terms of “what if someone’s hiding around that corner” or “what if we lose our jobs” unless we’re actually in a threatening situation. Most of the time we assume we’re safe, and our scanning for danger on the horizon is unconscious.

    Like I said, it needs more thought. I’ll have to think about the actions of women around me in the context of, “What is she afraid of that’s making her act that way?” and see what comes out.

  32. deti

    “In this act she sees, feels and experiences the full measure of her man’s strength and power, but at the same time this does not injure her in any way.”

    Something else that occurs to me is that she knows by feeling this strength and power, he is not hurting her, but he could if he wanted to. And if he could use that strength and power to hurt her, he could harness it to hurt or kill others who would harm her or her children.

  33. sunshinemary Post author

    @ Cail

    I’m not sure if it’s fear of anything in particular, either.

    There is a chapter in one of the Laura Ingalls Wilder books – I think it might be On the Banks of Plum Creek – where Pa has to walk to a town a number of miles away and gets lost in a blizzard. He doesn’t come back for several days, and in the book, Laura describes the terror they all felt waiting for him to return. Without him, they would have been utterly lost and destitute, but he eventually makes it home.

    And I thought about a question that Guest asked me a while back – “Why are you afraid? What can possibly be so scary in the suburbs of Michigan?” But I’m not afraid of anything that I can name. It’s not even something I’m generally too aware of, but the thought of my husband not being here just fills me with this sense of dread, like, “How would we manage without him?” In reality, we would manage somehow. But it feels like we couldn’t.

    It’s probably something hardwired in, some protective function that keeps females near the fathers of their children or something.

  34. Farm Boy

    feminists have to control all men’s opinions of them in order to secure their provisioning.

    Unfotunately, women can vote. And there are many Quislings that cater to them at the county’s expense

  35. Stingray

    But to keep it, she has to give him something; and that something he wants is figurative ownership. She is his woman, no one else can have her, and she must do what he tells her.

    Herein lies part of the problem. Think about women that you might know who are married to dominant men. Do any of these women mind, in the least, the thought of ownership by there man? Or rather, do they relish it? (Now of course there are those who would speak to the fact that they are not owned because they wish to belong to the herd, but in action, what is it like then?)

    Women who are married to men who are not dominant HATE the thought of being owned by them. Of being his woman. I think this is one of the many reasons respect is such a huge deal for men.

  36. redpillsetmefree

    Ms. Marcotte, perhaps you haven’t noticed this, but… lots of women out there seem to LOVE being semen toilets;
    as long as it is first class alpha semen being deposited therein.

    There are a lot of women out there who seem to be quite happy being semen toilets
    in exchange for some of JS’s attention.

    Not only that, we’ve discovered that
    pretty much every woman has the potential to rent herself out as a semen toilet, if the guy is alpha enough.

    So, men probably wouldn’t describe or treat such women as semen toilets if they didn’t love being semen toilets so much.

    Boom. Game, set, and match.

    What males also know, is that we discover all of the truths Deti listed very early in our lives, around the ages of 13-15.
    We see very clearly that all the things that girls say that they won’t do, that they’d never do, go flying out the window, along with their panties, when the right man comes along.
    We see that all the things that girls say they like, and say that they want, are the complete and diametric opposite of what they respond to, and who they give sex to.
    We also see as time goes on, that women will berate men without ceasing for doing anything for sex….while completely ignoring & minimizing the fact that all of their lives, women will do anything for male attention.
    We see as grown men, if we make the statement that “all women are prostitutes” it elicits this feral rage and pushback, while seeing that if you pull up in the right car, or have a high status enough job, women can be rented at your leisure.
    We Christians also see that ‘christian girls’ are actually no different from non-Christian girls, all it takes is the right man, and they will forget about their commitment to Jesus faster than Peter denying Him at the gate. And then claim ‘grace’ and ‘forgiveness’ to cover Sluttery, and still demand full marital benefits. “Born again virgins” who have somehow been re-hymenized through the Spirit, and will try and hamster away their N count with all of their might.

    All of this leads any smart male to the same irrefutable conclusion:

    Women have a complete and total inability to accurately self-assess.

    So, Ms. Marcotte, the sad truth is that, you are as about as steeped in solipsism as it gets, as are all who tout Feminism as truth. On the outside you tout yourself as a warrior, as a revolutionary, as a progressive, as independent, as one that’s strong, a liberator, a heroine…..

    but deep down inside, you know you’re just a joke.

  37. Elspeth

    Women are much more fearful than they let on. I had a conversation about this with The Shadowed Knight awhile back, which is when I realized that men don’t know how fearful we really are. The thought of losing my husband frightens me

    I used to struggle with this a lot at the beginning. Then it waned, and every now and again it grips me, mainly I think because the reality of my stage of life is hitting me.

    But I can honestly say I never felt ashamed of the relief that comes as a result of him being in charge. I had a brief period of fretting over not being a co-provider but his dominance was always something I have been very comfortable with. I have never been a feminist in the truest sense. I carry the residue (as do most publicly educated women my age), but never fully bought into it.

  38. Looking Glass

    I just have be clear here:

    We’ve taken “semen toilet” to be the ‘appropriate’ form of “c** dumpster”?

    It’s going to be one of those days.

    [ssm: Yes, semen toilet is the preferred form. We here at Sunshine Mary are rather highbrow like that. :)]

  39. Stingray

    But I’m not afraid of anything that I can name. It’s not even something I’m generally too aware of, but the thought of my husband not being here just fills me with this sense of dread, like, “How would we manage without him?”

    Same here, and it’s not just us. I think it is hardwired in. Think about any cop show you have ever watched and they have to tell the wife that he husband has died. What is one the first things that she says to the cops? “What will I ever do without him?”

  40. Michelle

    Once, in the midst of a broader conversation, my husband said “you’re not my equal”. It was another year before I told him how that simple statement made me melt. He was highly amused, as it was an off the cuff comment he hadn’t thought about again. He had no idea it was something I’d replayed in my head hundreds of times.

    I also thought there was something wrong with me. It takes a while to throw off the feminist yoke.

    Early in our marriage he would say things like “you’re a big girl, you can take care of yourself”. It took me years to figure out why comments like that made me want to scream. It’s sooo liberating to realize that there is nothing wrong with wanting your man to act like a man.

  41. Amanda

    ** “The more I think about it the more I like Peace (in place of happiness) out of any of the fruits of the Spirit — love, joy, peace, patience/endurance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control.” **

    Me too. There is nothing better to me in this life than to lay down all my troubles, to be still, and know that The Lord is in control, and He is good. That’s peace. Whenever I find my peace disturbed, I check to see if I have anything against myself, a sin that needs dealt with, and if after prayer I am unaware of anything, I deal with my emotions (we women are very prone to all kinds of crazy emotions that have no basis in reality — you’ve probably witnessed this lol). Knowing that it will disturb my peace is actually a deterrent to sin for me.

    You make an awesome point about the evangelistic power of peace. Having the peace of Christ is really what people are looking for in this world — to see an example of it. Deep down, it’s what Amanda Marcotte wants too. She is just full of unbelief and unwilling to humble herself to have it, and this is likely not even conscious to her. How sad!

    I apologize if this post is too introspective — I put classical on today and it always does that to me lol!

  42. Elspeth

    “Please, I need a man to take charge so I don’t have to. I want him to refuse to put up with my shit. I want him to tell me how it’s going to be. Where can I find a man like that?

    My husband and I talked about this quite recently after he saw a movie title (“I’m In Love With a Church Girl”) in our local theater listing. Yes, that was the actual movie title, LOL.

    I broached the subject on my blog today but here’s the thing I’m wondering. How much of this is about a woman’s natural desire for a dominant man and how much of it is about the fact that women (like all other human beings) love darkness rather than light?

    All the more reason why godly men need to find that balance between being loving and refusing to be a supplicant who lets his woman lead and clal the shots-even subtly- out of a misplaced desire to make her happy and interpreting that as love.

  43. Farm Boy

    Being alone is better than being with a man who thinks you’re part of a degraded class

    Who did the degrading?

    [ssm: A fine question that is.]

  44. Elspeth

    But I’m not afraid of anything that I can name. It’s not even something I’m generally too aware of, but the thought of my husband not being here just fills me with this sense of dread, like, “How would we manage without him?”

    Oh, that. That I can totally relate to.

  45. Looking Glass

    @Deep Strength:

    The “Peace of God” is that ‘inner peace’ all of the idiots keep trying to find by their own hands. And it’s less to be content than to be free of the grip of situations. You don’t have to worry about what you cannot do, as the Spirit is in control. It’s definitely a great place to be.

    I just wish I had gotten there sooner.

  46. Cail Corishev

    An ancillary point, perhaps, but part of the reason Marcotte et al so hate the manosphere is that they have done a phenomenal job of dominating, controlling and censoring all mainstream discourse. — Escoffier

    Yes, it must come as quite a surprise to them when they run into someone who disagrees with them. And not on their current pet projects, like the struggle between lesbians and she-males over bathroom rights, but on fundamental issues like who runs a family and whether women should vote.

    They’re vaguely aware that people having such bizarre, outmoded views exist, but they’re all supposed to be in trailer parks in Kentucky or armed compounds in backwoods Idaho. They’re not supposed to be running popular blogs, writing about complex topics with skill, using big words and showing off knowledge of things like philosophy and theology. They’re not supposed to be reaching people outside their compounds.

    That’s extra scary for them because that’s how they think they got to where they are: starting from the grass roots and railing against the man until their persistence won the day. That’s nonsense, of course; they had powerful backers from the start. But that’s what they believe, and if it worked for them, why couldn’t it work for their opponents? What’s to stop the “misogynists” from taking over just as they did, and sending them off to the baby factories?

  47. earl

    Well I suppose that explains a lot about my own mother always being afraid about something even though she didn’t really have to worry.

    I suppose I should have been wiser to not pick up those traits when I was younger…oh well, live and learn.

  48. sunshinemary Post author

    Who do they think they’re fooling? Are they even fooling themselves?

    Lavazza, I ask myself that same question. Do they really believe what they write? For example, do feminists really, honestly believe there is a rape culture on campus, as opposed to a confused slut culture? I can’t accept that they buy their own poo.

  49. Elspeth

    Truthfully Earl, the more faith you have the less the fear grips you. The longer I live, the less fearful I become. I have more faith in God to provide, more faith that my husband isn’t gonna up and leave me, and we’ve taken steps to prepare as much as is humanly possible for tragedies that strike out of the blue.

    But yeah, any woman who truly and deeply loves her husband shudders deep inside at the very thought of him not being there anymore.

    When you can easily imagine him leaving or dying and you getting through it without needing some serious help, I wonder. I’m not that strong.

  50. Elspeth

    Do they really believe what they write? For example, do feminists really, honestly believe there is a rape culture on campus, as opposed to a confused slut culture? I can’t accept that they buy their own poo.

    Yes. Of course they buy it. Of that I have no doubt. There is no confused slut culture in their minds. When you have bought in fully to the dogma of feminine innocence, it’s easy to buy into the rest of it.

  51. Frank

    That has to be one of the ugliest woman I’ve ever seen in my life. Gees, I don’t even think that’s a woman, but some genetic mutation experiment gone horribly wrong and let loose on the world.

    The fact that she’s married tells us the problem isn’t women but the limpy donged white knights who enable them. Her husband isn’t even named as her husband on Wikipedia, merely her “partner.” So I’m presuming even the use of the word “husband” is sexist.

    Are we all positively sure we’re not already in the Tribulation here?

    [ssm: You know, it's weird. She dresses femininely a lot of the time and wears makeup and has longish hair, so she is doing everything a woman should that way, but she still looks like a man, doesn't she? Of course, none of us can help the genetic hand we draw in life. I'm an average-looking middle-aged woman myself, not especially hot, so I don't like to criticize a woman for her facial structure...but honestly, she does look like a man dressed as a woman, so it's odd how her personality is also so mannish.]

  52. Farm Boy

    wants the rest of women to stop being all feminist and shit.

    Well, she does make the correct association between feminism and shit. Kind of like an “on the fly” Rohrsach test.

  53. Amanda

    @Elspeth

    ** “But yeah, any woman who truly and deeply loves her husband shudders deep inside at the very thought of him not being there anymore.

    When you can easily imagine him leaving or dying and you getting through it without needing some serious help, I wonder. I’m not that strong.” **

    It took me awhile to get there, but now I can totally identify with the sentiment. When I first got married, I was used to being very independent. It had been necessary, because I was out of the house at 18 and I worked nights through college as a waitress. I was always responsible for my own livlihood, and that can have a hardening effect. It has been such joy to me to be able to let that go and really rely on my husband and trust him. He has been very good to me!

  54. Farm Boy

    he might see why his gloating rant makes no kind of sense.

    Perhaps it made little sense because of the lack of rational behavior of the women who willingly become semen toilets.

  55. earl

    I would think if you have a good husband…he would have at least imparted wisdom or taught you how to do some things in the unlikely event that he would be gone. We truly are more than ATM machines and semen dispensers. The problem solving aspect should be something women would want to secure a man for.

    Another reason why men hate putting up with stubborn women…perhaps we have a better way of doing things than you do and are trying to make your lives easier in case we aren’t in the picture. It seems the biggest fear women have from what I experienced is the fear of unknown change.

  56. Anonymous Reader

    SSM
    Do they really believe what they write? For example, do feminists really, honestly believe there is a rape culture on campus, as opposed to a confused slut culture? I can’t accept that they buy their own poo.

    Yes, they believe what they are saying. And they say the same thing about y’all; they have a term for it from the Chinese Maoist revo, “False Consciousness”. The “consciousness raising” (read: 30-minute hate) sessions of the 1970’s were all about convincing women just like you how wrong they were.

    It’s all about the herd. Marcotte and her herd all constantly pet each other with slogans, in order to maintain a degree of comfort within their herd. So yes, feminists will confidently tell each other that their campus surely has a “rape culture” as part of the ritual of shriek at the night. At the same time, when it suits their pleasure, they will act as though there’s not a speck of danger anywhere, and therefore it’s their right to slutwalk anywhere, anytime, and demand that men protect them as they do so.

    You really need to read, or re-read, Orwell’s 1984 as it still one of the best depictions of the kind of double-think that is required to be a practicing ideologue.

  57. Amanda

    @earl

    ** “I would think if you have a good husband…he would have at least imparted wisdom or taught you how to do some things in the unlikely event that he would be gone. We truly are more than ATM machines and semen dispensers. The problem solving aspect should be something women would want to secure a man for.” **

    I understand what you are saying here, but the truth is I wouldn’t miss my husband for his natural provision (that’s what life insurance is for), I would miss his spiritual counsel and companionship, and our intimate relationship.

  58. Farm Boy

    The alternative to having a hateful misogynist around who expects you to clean up after him, accept his ranting about how women are a repulsive subhuman class whose only purpose is service to men, and to masturbate him without any hope of sexual pleasure yourself is simple: Not being with such a man.

    But does he generate tingles, or not?

  59. deti

    The feminist and anti-feminist worldviews are so diametrically opposed, we don’t even have a common basis on which to have a conversation. We don’t even see “facts” the same way. Marcotte et al have their own “facts”, ostensibly, which include that “men and women are exactly the same except women can have babies” and “testosterone and estrogen makes men and women, but that has nothing to do with brain structure or thought patterns”.

    Meanwhile, the manosphere/tradosphere holds that the Bible is all truth, that men and women are different, think differently and process information differently.

    There is no way to have a meaningful conversation with people who think the way Marcotte et al think, except to say “you are entitled to your own opinions; but you are not entitled to your own facts.”

  60. Frank

    …she does look like a man dressed as a woman, so it’s odd how her personality is also so mannish.

    I’m sure it’s demonic. If she ever truly repented, I suspect her physical visage would soften and much of her natural femininity would be restored.

  61. Stingray

    he would have at least imparted wisdom or taught you how to do some things in the unlikely event that he would be gone.

    It’s a lot more than functional things, Earl. I think the women here are probably more capable of really taking care of themselves than most. It’s that, if we lost our husbands, we would be losing our Rock. We would be losing our Captain and while it sounds cliche, we would really be losing a big part of ourselves.

    [ssm: Yes, I think that's right. Of course I fear the loss of his protection and provisioning, but if I had to, I would find a way to manage those things to the best of my ability. But in my husband's presence is safety and acceptance and an anchor that keeps my emotions from blowing me off course.]

  62. Bike Bubba

    My former employer hired a lot of single moms, who had two things needed for cheap electronics assembly. One, they needed the money and couldn’t be picky about wages or threaten to unionize, and two, it’s work that these women did really well–imagine a knitting circle or quilting bee, but with microwave connectors, and you’ve got the basic picture. Sadly, a lot of them did function as “c** dumpsters” in their personal lives, and helping to make that possible was the welfare office right next door. You could watch them walk there on break to get their benefits straightened out.

    I also knew some of their paramours. Suffice it to say that they were not classical “alphas”. So not only did our modern welfare state (inspired in part by many feminists to be sure) deprive these women of loving husbands, they didn’t even get the consolation of becoming “alpha widows.” I remember one young lady (we’ll use the term loosely because she was, too) hitting on a good-looking white collar guy–genuine 6’2″ but already taken–and then the guy she was able to “command” was a 5’4″ nerdy looking guy. Except for her sluttiness, it was clearly a 7-4 match.

    So I think Marcotte seriously needs to get out there and SEE what her theories are doing to women. It ain’t pretty.

  63. Elspeth

    It’s that, if we lost our husbands, we would be losing our Rock. We would be losing our Captain and while it sounds cliche, we would really be losing a big part of ourselves.

    Exactly. When I said I would need some “serious help”, I meant dealing with the immense grief and/or sense of loss. That might preclude me from functioning a bit, but once they peeled me off the floor, I could manage.

  64. earl

    Well then that might explain my situation greatly.

    Most of my adult life I have been anything but a rock..it’s been more like sand…but with God’s help I’m changing that one day at a time.

  65. sunshinemary Post author

    Cail:

    They’re vaguely aware that people having such bizarre, outmoded views exist, but they’re all supposed to be in trailer parks in Kentucky or armed compounds in backwoods Idaho. They’re not supposed to be running popular blogs, writing about complex topics with skill, using big words and showing off knowledge of things like philosophy and theology. They’re not supposed to be reaching people outside their compounds.

    I remember a comment from maybe a year ago at Manboobz about my readers which said that they were startled that we are actually intelligent people. They simply couldn’t understand that intelligent people could hold these views.

    How the Left portrays us (courtesy of Patriactionary):

  66. Looking Glass

    Sadly, I’d trust the crazy guy with the shotgun over the entire organized Left in the country. At least I know how crazy of a person I’m dealing with.

  67. Anonymous Reader

    Escoffier
    “False conciousness” is actually in the orignal Marx (or Engels to be precise):

    True, but I did not care to call Boxer into this thread…

  68. earl

    “So I think Marcotte seriously needs to get out there and SEE what her theories are doing to women. It ain’t pretty.”

    Those women are just doing it wrong or the men are to blame…the idea is always right no matter what reality says.

    With these people it’s mental disease…no amount of logic, proof, or fact will change what is entrenched in their mind.

  69. feeriker

    Another thorough demolition of Marcotte’s trademark verbal and intellectual vomitus. Well done, SSM!

    I was at first considering taking you to task for your efforts simply due to the fact that Marcotte, IMO, isn’t worth your talents, time, and efforts to rebut, that she is “beneath you” (I recall telling Judgy Bitch the same thing over at her blog; she makes regular sport of demolishing the nonsense Marcotte regularly spews over at Jezebel.com, albeit in a rather more “worldly” manner than you do). However, it occurred to me that your real target isn’t Marcotte herself, but her readers. You have, to your credit, made it clear that your goal is not to alienate these misguided feminists, but to educate and convert them to the path of righteousness and light. Seen in that light, I not only commend you for what you’ve done, but look forward to much more of the same, as do we all.

    Again, well done!

  70. Anonymous Reader

    Looking Glass, that is no shotgun. It is either a small bore rifle or some kind of airgun.

  71. Bike Bubba

    Earl; that’s the most maddening thing of all. Yes, the woman is doing it wrong. Yes, the man is at fault. But nobody pointed a gun at their heads and told woman A to do the nasty with man B and make little victims–I mean children–with their little fling. It’s highly irritating that Marcotte’s type will not say “OK, what incentives have we placed before men and women, and does this explain their bad choices?”

  72. Athor Pel

    Yes many women live fear filled lives. Women are built for fear. They are more emotionally variable by design. They are weaker than men by design.

    By weak I mean weaker of will as well as weaker of muscle. Every woman has a low grade ever present knowledge of male strength. Practically any man, if he decided to, could overpower her at any moment and there isn’t a thing she could personally do about it. She is a constant captive to the willingness of men to tolerate her shit. There is always going to be at least one man she feels she must ingratiate herself to if she really is a woman in the fullest sense.

    By emotional variability I mean tendency to be provoked more easily and to a more extreme degree than men. Easier to make happy, easier to make sad, more susceptible to being pushed into any particular emotion and to be kept there by basically artificial means because of her self deceptive nature. She helps you do it, which the unscrupulous take great advantage of.

    How I personally know women live in fear is that I’ve seen it in their eyes all my life. You can touch a person’s spirit with the eyes. In fact I see it in many people’s eyes, men and women. It’s just that many more women possess this trait than men as a percentage of the total. They are all more worried about what others will do to them rather than what they are going to do to others.

    Of the women I’ve known that possessed a measurable lack of fear they also had a man in their lives that was basically righteous and strong. Women with merely strong but wicked men suffered just as badly with fear as those without a man at all.

    Is this knowledge conscious within the strident feminist? Not really. It is one more thing with which they practice their double mindedness.

  73. donalgraeme

    Couple of thoughts-

    About the security of a husband/man… I talked with a young woman recently about the subject of men and women needing each other. While we debated some about the impact that the modern environment has on need for women to marry because of greater state provided security, we both agreed that women still felt the need for a close male presence for their emotional security. She explained that all of her female friends expressed this sentiment to one degree or another, even though it sometimes was indirectly. I think that women are hardwired to seek out the company/presence of men for a feeling of security, especially the company of a single, powerful and dominant man.

    Also, she described the male need for women as a “longing for completeness”, based on what her male friends told her. To me, this seemed the perfect explanation for what need from women to fill The Void.

    As for the main point of this article… women are hard-wired to be conscious of what others think of them. While men have the same feature, to a degree, it is much stronger in women. Probably to the point that it is one of the main impulses driving female behavior. I imagine that the idea that men look down upon her would be rather frightening to a woman, and so she would seek means to alleviate that fear. Hence, the need to control male expressions of female behavior.

  74. RichardP

    Again, I’ve not read all comments yet. If I’m repeating someone else, my appologies.

    @SSM: “… how awful it must be to be someone like Amanda Marcotte … knowing that what she wants is a man who will put her over his knee for acting like such a horrid brat and then tell her to go make him a sandwich. … it’s a hell of their own making.

    @SSM: “Actually, I came to the realization about two years ago that the more dominant my husband behaved toward me, the more I was interested in having sex with him.”

    Mary, can I encourage you to modify that first quote of yours with the second quote of yours (modify, as an adjective modifies a noun)? By your own admission, you did not know what lay within you until it was unveiled via your husband’s behavior over time.

    I’m going to repeat that because it is so important: By your own admission, you did not know what lay within you until it was unveiled via your husband’s behavior over time.

    Without a husband to dominate you, how would you have ever discovered what your internal, personal (not public, and group) resonse would turn out to be? By the words you use, it seems you thought your response would be one thing. But in the actual doing of it, you discovered what your response actually was.

    Amanda Marcotte (and all others like her) is having a public, group-based (herd-based?) response. She is responding as you used to respond – thinking “this is what my response SHOULD BE, because that’s what the group says”. When is she ever going to find out what her response ACTUALLY IS to a dominant man who has committed to imposing himself on her life – the kind of opportunity you were given, in which you discovered how you would actually respond, as opposed to how you thought you should respond?

    When the law allowed a man to whack a woman over the head and drag her back to his cave (hyperbole alert), that woman was given actually experience in which she could discover for herself that she kind of liked what had just happened to her. With the law as we currently have it, it is the rare woman who is going to have a chance at that kind of self-discovery – as any movement toward domination of any sort can be the trigger to have a man thrown in jail for abuse and/or harrasement.

    If you thought similar to Amanda Marcotte until self-discovery was imposed on you by your man (thought your response SHOULD be one way; discovered that it actually WAS another way), can we have at least some empathy for the Amanda Marcotte’s of the world who have had no such self-discovery imposed on them – because they don’t know to allow it. Mary, your self-discovery did not come from reading fliers and gender-studies books. Neither will theirs.

  75. feeriker

    donalgraeme said While we debated some about the impact that the modern environment has on need for women to marry because of greater state provided security, we both agreed that women still felt the need for a close male presence for their emotional security. She explained that all of her female friends expressed this sentiment to one degree or another, even though it sometimes was indirectly. I think that women are hardwired to seek out the company/presence of men for a feeling of security, especially the company of a single, powerful and dominant man.

    Show of hands, guys: How many of you are looking for a woman who wants you for nothing more than to serve as a security blanket with muscles and a wallet?

    Anybody? Back of the room?

    [ssm: I don't think the idea is that a woman wants a man for nothing but keeping her safe, but it is part of what we desire from our men. In the same way, a wife enjoys being sexually objectified by her husband but doesn't want him to want her only for sex.]

  76. Looking Glass

    Oh, one little side point to much of this.

    One observation I made, quite a lot time ago (but recently reconfirmed) is that the desire for the attention of the locally dominant male is always high… among children from the time they can walk. Male attention is always highly desired. (It’s also very hard to come by, compared to all other attention for Children) If a Man is ever with a group of Women & young children are present, the children will very quickly desire the attention of the Man.

    This instinct is ingrained and ever present. This is one of those subtle things that drives so many interactions in the lives of everyone growing up. For Women, this never really stops. Which is a lot of the reasons the PUAs & cads can operate so easily in this society.

    Side-bar: while my “Using 2-year olds to social proof myself” Game is stellar, I rarely have the heart to ever say that talking with a 2 to 4 year old is generally a more intellectually stimulating conversation than with their Mothers.

  77. Carlotta

    What a mighty strawman this women has built.
    The options she has listed shows a depraved worldview or a desperate void. I wouldn’t want either one. And if that is what she is selling as winning I am praying more and more young girls can simply figure this out themselves.

  78. Carlotta

    Show of hands, guys: How many of you are looking for a woman who wants you for nothing more than to serve as a security blanket with muscles and a wallet?

    Show of hands ladies. How many of you are looking for a man who wants you nothing more than to serve as a free vagina and a free cleaning lady?

    Any takers?

    Seriously, this constant whining has got to stop. Every time SSM has a good topic that thinking people are open to discussing it goes right back to the “WOMEN ARE EVIL” bs.

  79. Carlotta

    Side-bar: while my “Using 2-year olds to social proof myself” Game is stellar, I rarely have the heart to ever say that talking with a 2 to 4 year old is generally a more intellectually stimulating conversation than with their Mothers.

    Actually, having a 2 year old is what knocked the feminism right out of me. I quite literally said to myself and my Husband “Dear God, this is me, isn’t it?”
    Yeah, self-awareness is fun.

  80. Legion

    deti October 17, 2013 at 11:15 am
    “…lots of women out there seem to LOVE being semen toilets…”

    I guess I’m a traditionalist. It’s ‘cum dumpsters’ to me.

  81. feeriker

    @ Carlotta:

    Did somebody get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning and then find that there was no coffee left in the kitchen cannister?

    [ssm: I don't think the idea is that a woman wants a man for nothing but keeping her safe, but it is part of what we desire from our men. In the same wsy, a wife enjoys being sexually objectified by her husband but doesn't want him to want her onlyfor sex.]

    I hope that’s the correct interpretation of what donal was trying to convey here, second-hand. Perhaps his summary of what his female companion said was incomplete, but it seemed to me that her emphasis on what she (and what she felt most women) wanted from a man was on “emotional support” rather than the full range of attributes that would make a man truly fit for marriage. I’ll let donal himself correct me if my impression is in error.

  82. Mychael

    “One observation I made, quite a lot time ago (but recently reconfirmed) is that the desire for the attention of the locally dominant male is always high… among children from the time they can walk. Male attention is always highly desired. (It’s also very hard to come by, compared to all other attention for Children) If a Man is ever with a group of Women & young children are present, the children will very quickly desire the attention of the Man.”

    Pretty much every day, as I sit on the couch playing with our 8 month old, my husband comes home from work and starts talking in his low, man voice. No matter how engaged me and the baby are, he focuses on dad and “tracks” him around the house like a laser. He just HAS to know where he is at all times, and eveything else kind of disappears for a while.

  83. donalgraeme

    @ Feeriker

    I was addressing only the security component of a woman’s need for a man. There is much more to it than that. On a base level, yes, women are mercenary. But then again, on a base level, men are just plunderers. However, men and women can both rise about their base instincts and treat their spouse as something other than a utility to serve various needs.

  84. Cail Corishev

    So I think Marcotte seriously needs to get out there and SEE what her theories are doing to women. It ain’t pretty.

    Good point. For every girl who’s living large in the big city somewhere, partying with stockbrokers at hip night clubs, there are a whole lot more who are working crappy minimum wage jobs and selling food stamps for cash to buy diapers, letting a loser boyfriend crash at their place (when he’s not in jail) because being alone really does suck, telling themselves that he’s gonna get a good job and get them out of the gutter any day now. That’s part of what feminism has wrought too. It’s not all glamorous writers with nothing to tie them down except their cats.

  85. Alexander

    That assumes that that’s a bug, not a feature.

    Nobody craps on service/retail girls more than wealthy feminists. Fact is, those girls are her competition: a system that they can be conned into following but ultimately destroys them is exactly what’s desired.

  86. Amanda

    @Mychael

    Yep. My littles worship the ground Daddy walks on around here; it was totally natural to them from the beginning of their awareness. When he gets home from work, it’s like circus came to town lol! They also take it much harder if he is the one upset with them or correcting them.

  87. Farm Boy

    Show of hands ladies. How many of you are looking for a man who wants you nothing more than to serve as a free vagina and a free cleaning lady

    It is never free

  88. redpillsetmefree

    But in my husband’s presence is safety and acceptance and an anchor that keeps my emotions from blowing me off course.

    And there you have it. Not only are women bad at self-assessment, they really don’t even want to do it. They wanna know what we think of them. They want us to be their stabilizing force.

    Also corroborated here:
    Fine, but that begs the question: if women are so secure in themselves and, thanks to feminism, don’t need to define themselves by what men think of them, then why are feminist women so angry about the low opinion the majority of men have of them? Why do they get so angry upon hearing that men see slutty women as only useful for sexual activity? You cannot simultaneously say that you don’t care about someone’s opinion of you while at the same time being enraged by their opinion of you.

    Conclusion: God is right again. Women were made for men, not the other way around. Women do not want to be without us, our protection, our approval, or our stability. This is why getting laid as an Alpha is never a problem, even if you’re a complete bastard. She’ll take your imperfect Alpha masculine presence over Beta groveling any day. It’s hard-wired into women, and even when it has to be surreptitiously awakened, they discover very quickly that they like it.

    Coupling that with what SSM has identified as the fear, we can now confirm what we’ve always known…that deep down inside every Feminist is a very scared woman thinking, “I’m not pretty enough. I’m not skinny enough. I’m not young enough. The men don’t want me.”

    Then that fear is turned to hatred and projected outward, much like racism, but it has the added bonus of loving company, so that other women can feel miserable and rejected as well, all under the guise of being “strong, independent, and empowered.”

    …Can we get as many women as possible on to reading SSM’s blog? She’s setting women free to be their God created selves. And they’re thanking her for it.

  89. sunshinemary Post author

    @ RichardP

    I have some remarks to make on your rather thought-provoking comment. However, I am currently at swim class with some of our children and must go directly from here to our middle schooler’s volleyball game, and I hate composing long comments on my phone. But I will respond later this evening when I am home.

  90. Travis Alexander

    Quote: “It is scary to feminists in particular because, instead of being dependent on one man like I am, they are dependent on men as a group to fund them.”

    Brilliant! Yet they can’t or won’t recognize this.

  91. bike bubba

    Cail: exactly. For every Marcotte, there are hundreds or thousands of young women whose life choices have been truncated by the welfare state. It’s most obvious in the small towns I’ve lived in, because you see your coworkers at the grocery store, church, the county fair, and the like, but I’m told that Gotham works most like a series of small towns. It’s not like a “serious journalist” like Marcotte ought to be able to ignore the plight of the woman at the newsstand, the coffee barista, or her waitress.

    It’s as inexcusable, really, as President Obama spending 20 years “organizing a community” on the South Side of Chicago without ever figuring out that the welfare state wasn’t working out so hot there, either–even as the Robert Taylor Homes and Cabrini Green were demolished. It’s appalling.

  92. FuzzieWuzzie

    It must be tough to argue with feminists. They do seem to have a pat answer for everything. However, when you get down to it, they are in rebellion against God and nature. Why do I think that this will be their undoing?

    For those that want to argue the “semen toilet” thing, there’s always Proverbs 31. A woman living in concert with God and nature is a wonderful thing to behold and a powerful entity in her own right.

    About “bodycrimes”, there’s a Mr. bodycrimes. Perhaps she is looking for answers to deepen her marriage.
    I don’t know what she’ll think of the musings of a talking bear.

  93. Guest

    “Pretty much every day, as I sit on the couch playing with our 8 month old, my husband comes home from work and starts talking in his low, man voice. No matter how engaged me and the baby are, he focuses on dad and “tracks” him around the house like a laser. He just HAS to know where he is at all times, and eveything else kind of disappears for a while.”

    Perhaps because this is because the baby sees you all day. Try switching it—be out all day, and have the baby be home with dad. I’ll bet the baby makes a big fuss when you get home. It’s not the “big, manly voice”–it’s the novelty.

  94. earl

    “When the law allowed a man to whack a woman over the head and drag her back to his cave (hyperbole alert), that woman was given actually experience in which she could discover for herself that she kind of liked what had just happened to her.”

    Or if you will…the whole point of Fight Club. You can actually derive pleasure from experiencing productive pain because that means you are doing something in the world. Feminism brainwashing people into thinking any action, pain, or suffering is the worst thing that can happen to you…when in fact pain and suffering in the correct context is beneficial.

    I’ll put it this way…I was at the gym today putting myself through my tortuous routine…and I get exercise tingles afterwards. Ms. Feminist really does need a wash…but I’m not going to do it until she shapes up.

  95. Sir_Chancealot

    SSM,

    There’s an old saying: “When you are taking flak, you know you are over the target.”

    As I have said before, and someone else pointed out in this thread, “you write to the lurkers, not the commenters.”

    BTW, are you starting to notice the influx of new (female) names? ;)

    Every time they send a bevy of new readers your way, the feminists lose a few more supporters.

    Keep up the good work.

  96. donalgraeme

    @ Sir_Chancealot

    Every time they send a bevy of new readers your way, the feminists lose a few more supporters.

    Quiet! We don’t want them to figure it out or they will stop linking here.

  97. Farm Boy

    Every time they send a bevy of new readers your way, the feminists lose a few more supporters.

    It really comes down to the question: Do you as a woman want to be contented, or not?

  98. Mychael

    “Perhaps because this is because the baby sees you all day. Try switching it—be out all day, and have the baby be home with dad. I’ll bet the baby makes a big fuss when you get home. It’s not the “big, manly voice”–it’s the novelty.”

    Right now, I get home about 10 minutes before my husband does–I am not a SAHM (but he is working on it). “Novelty” hardly accounts for the 4 hours both of the littlest ones hang on him. It is clear they are drawn to something about his frame/presence.

  99. Jenny

    Fear is a big thing …. I look at other people and they all seem so brave and don’t seem scared of anything. I am scared of all sorts of things – really it would be a long list. Maybe other women just don’t talk about fear or are just really good at hiding it.

    I don’t like confrontation at all and recently found myself at the train station with a couple of older women from work when there were a lot of football fans there. Some had been drinking and they were really loud and my first instinct was to attempt to be invisible especially when comments were made (rather crude comments) but the women I was with actually engaged in some really smutty talk. They just acted like they were invincible and as though nothing bad could happen to them. I just felt vulnerable. x

  100. earl

    “Pretty much every day, as I sit on the couch playing with our 8 month old, my husband comes home from work and starts talking in his low, man voice. No matter how engaged me and the baby are, he focuses on dad and “tracks” him around the house like a laser. He just HAS to know where he is at all times, and eveything else kind of disappears for a while.”

    The thing I have been most directly complimented on by women is my voice. There is something to having a deep resonating voice.

  101. Looking Glass

    Those of us without deep voices are quite aware. Part of me always wanted to be able to drink scotch, just so I could knock half an octave off my voice.

    As for the fear issue, this is one of those that’s going to be a “duh” concept to most guys, but it’s worth stating.

    – To a Man, a Woman is simply not a physical threat without a weapon. Up until the point you can’t move your limbs or you’re hospital bound. That’s the strength difference.

    – To a Woman, every other adult, all boys ages 8 and girls older than 14 are physical threats, at all times. Weapon or no weapon.

    – A boy, by about age 5, realizes that he can’t “take the world on!” by himself. He has to either learn to face certain fears or go hide in a corner for the rest of his life. (The corner is normally too painful to stay in, however) By the same measure, you learn the futility of most conflicts, thus you learn to pick your battles. The faster you learn, the less pain you’ll normally go through.

    The difference starts at the physical. If a young girl doesn’t possess a certain level of solipsism, she’s going to die of sheer terror. You can’t collect a large enough group of 6 year old girls to overtake a group of five boys the same age. So, from there, it makes sense both the nature of solipsism (as a defense mechanism) and socialization necessity. If the reality of life isn’t shifted, a bit, into “existential dread” rather than “specific dread”, most girls would never leave the house.

    This is also way, owing to each Man’s own nature, Men can be so insanely cognizant of the cost-benefit curve. Action requires risk, so the risk better be worth it.

    I should also note this is the basic reasons for a lot of the social pathologies we have to deal with. When you unmoor Society from Reality, you get all of the natural instincts taken way past their limits.

  102. dannyfrom504

    I.love.you.

    I gave up giving 2 shits what feminists thought in regards to my masculinity. Whether they perceive it as hateful, out-dated, etc.

    They can go ahead and take a long hard look in the mirror and realize I will never marry or settle or whatever they THINK I should do after the environment they’ve created.

    And more and more men are choosing the path I have. I have damn near every prerequisite of a good, loving, stable partner. I choose the life I have of casual relationships since the law driven society we live in is a no win for me in regards to marriage.

    Pass on my genes, wtf…..I’m not king author. Feminist dug the hole, now they can sulk in it. Why should I commit to a reformed slut when I can pull multiple sluts and fill what is in fact my short term need sexually.

    I wish I didn’t think this way, but it’s a matter of survival. I’m not risking financial ass rape so my “wife” can suddenly pursue her EPL urges.

    I’m much better off single. Why buy the cow…..

  103. tbc

    But it’s interesting to think about how much fear is involved in a woman’s life. Not always that kind of deep, panicky fear, but just the underlying knowledge that a lot of stuff out there is dangerous to her. I don’t think most men have that; we just don’t think in terms of “what if someone’s hiding around that corner” or “what if we lose our jobs” unless we’re actually in a threatening situation. Most of the time we assume we’re safe, and our scanning for danger on the horizon is unconscious.

    I wonder if some of this fear is at the back of the ‘hysteria’ over rape-culture and such things. Particularly in the collapse of the previous marriage model when virtually all women were either daughters, wives, or widows. Those women had to worry about rape, yes, but it was likely not the constant grinding fear that seems to be what feminist women describe when they talk of rape culture. Then rape was rape — a stranger assaulting you from the bushes or a relative abusing the relationship — but there was little context for large numbers of women disconnected from any men and navigating the world alone. That could easily multiply the fears women experience and indeed multiply the opportunities for unwanted sexual assault to occur.

  104. Elspeth

    Show of hands, guys: How many of you are looking for a woman who wants you for nothing more than to serve as a security blanket with muscles and a wallet?

    Show of hands ladies. How many of you are looking for a man who wants you nothing more than to serve as a free vagina and a free cleaning lady?

    Any takers?

    Testy testy, Carlotta. Every married person realizes that the relationship is far more complicated than that. At least I hope so anyway.

    But the security blanket with muscles is quite comforting. It helps that he has a brain to go with it.

  105. tz

    A woman can only be a “semen toliet” if the seed is wasted, but remember what happened to Onan in Genesis 38.

    Note that fertility transforms the woman from toilet to fertile ground. And that commands respect if nothing else does.

    But keep trying to preserve contraception – which made feminism and its descent into sluttyness possible.

  106. The Woman Margery

    “The manosphere has been a huge wake up call for feminists because they have to confront the horrifying reality that they have utterly and completely failed. Men do not like fat sluts. They did not like them then and they do not like them now and they never will like them.”

    The answer to this for them, though, is “more feminism”. It’s not about what men like or did like or don’t like or didn’t like it’s about changing all of the above to suit women. Feminism 101. So I doubt feminists are getting a huge wake-up call as much as they are seeing the Manosphere and thinking “well, we just need to feminist harder! There are still souls to crush”.

  107. The Woman Margery

    “Note that fertility transforms the woman from toilet to fertile ground. And that commands respect if nothing else does.”

    This is a really great point. But I have to ask- what of infertile women? Certainly sex serves more of a purpose than procreation. Perhaps the sort of fertility we are talking about is both literal procreation and the idea of “one flesh” in the sense of a uniting of spirits?

  108. Artisanal Toad

    @Mychael
    Male attention is always highly desired. (It’s also very hard to come by, compared to all other attention for Children)

    This is so weird. I was shopping a couple of days with my friend Wendy in Wal Mart. Every single child under the age of about 6 that we came across talked to me. Literally, every single one. A quarter of the moms were grabbing the kids and running, half were trying to laugh it off, another quarter just ignored the interaction, but every single kid under the age of maybe 6 talked to me, tried to get my attention, or tried to entertain me. I fiinally started just grabbing random stuff off the shelves and handing it to the kids to shut them up. I suspect that in at least half the cases, mom wound up buying whatever I handed her kid cause they screamed if she tried to put it back on the shelf.

    I’ve never seen a child initiate any kind of contact with Wendy. She’s a little over 6 feet tall and in really good shape and she was wearing a dress and heels so she towered over me by about 7 inches. She’s cute in a non-traditional way, but children shrink away from her as a rule because (I think) she’s got [ahem] a seriously non-feminine attitude. She was always at my side but the kids just came out of the woodwork to talk to me.

    I frequently have children talk to me or seek my attention, but nothing like that has ever happened before. I had one little boy (about 3) pulling stuff out of his mom’s purse to show me. I don’t know what else was in his Mom’s purse, but when she realized what he was doing, she grabbed her purse and put it over her shoulder. Wendy commented on that too… something about the kid was about to pull the rabbit out of the purse… she does have her moments.

  109. redpillsetmefree

    Can we go ahead and set this to music:

    I wish I didn’t think this way
    but it’s a matter of survival.
    I’m not risking financial ass rape
    so my “wife” can suddenly pursue her EPL urges.

    and make it our official MGTOW theme song?

  110. Morris

    “Who do they think they’re fooling? Are they even fooling themselves?”

    The power of self-delusion is strong, and even necessary to these people to be able to keep on living their way. The willingness to see truth oft times comes at the point of wanting to rid ones’s self of pain. I know this to be true for me as a gamma – swallowing that red pill was a bitter one for me, but it got to the point where I could not deny the truth of it any more.

    Carry on, I’ll go back to lurking. *grin*

  111. HanSolo

    SSM

    And this, I believe, is why feminists hate the manosphere so very much. They have to hear that they have failed; they have silenced men in the public arena, but online all’s fair in love and war and free speech, and they have to hear, possibly for the first time, what men really think. And they hate it because it is scary. It is scary to imagine that men will stop doing what they are told by women to do. It is scary to feminists in particular because, instead of being dependent on one man like I am, they are dependent on men as a group to fund them.

    Men pay the majority of taxes in the United States. Without men’s taxes, student financial aid for Women’s Studies degrees will dry up. Without men’s taxes, baby mamas will starve. Without men financing it, women who are being placed into corporate leadership simply as a response to affirmative action and who then quit these jobs after a year to write tear-filled articles in the Atlantic about work-life balance, demanding even more subsidies from men to ensure that women never need to suffer the consequences for their stupid choices, will cease. I only have to manage my husband’s opinion of me in order to secure his provisioning; feminists have to control all men’s opinions of them in order to secure their provisioning. Hence the need to regulate how men perceive women, and a noticeable outpouring of fire ants from the feminist colony any time a group of men starts to express negative views of modern women.

    Very profound insight on the need to control men’s opinions…and by extension, actions…since so many women depend on the collective financial contributions of men.

  112. infowarrior1

    @Amanda
    “Yep. My littles worship the ground Daddy walks on around here; it was totally natural to them from the beginning of their awareness. When he gets home from work, it’s like circus came to town lol! They also take it much harder if he is the one upset with them or correcting them.”

    God hardwired patriarchy at work.

  113. Artisanal Toad

    @infowarrior1

    God hardwired men to appreciate that kind of appreciation. Dad comes home and the children scream “Daaaaaaddddyy,” and run to him. It’s like no drug ever developed Men will kill for this feeling. This is the reason men still get married.

  114. infowarrior1

    @LG
    “Those of us without deep voices are quite aware. Part of me always wanted to be able to drink scotch, just so I could knock half an octave off my voice.”

    Age and testosterone brother. Increase your testosterone as much as possible.

  115. Guest

    “Right now, I get home about 10 minutes before my husband does–I am not a SAHM (but he is working on it). “Novelty” hardly accounts for the 4 hours both of the littlest ones hang on him. It is clear they are drawn to something about his frame/presence.”

    Again, I suggest coming home after your husband does, and see what happens. Well, we both know what will happen. The baby will make a fuss over you.

  116. Pingback: Amanda Marcotte takes down Sunshine Mary; Mary digs her hole deeper | man boobz

  117. nightskyradio

    Legion – I guess I’m a traditionalist. It’s ‘cum dumpsters’ to me.

    It also reads better on a band poster. Something about how it rolls off the tongue.

    …there’s a dirty joke in there somewhere, but I’m not gonna make it.

  118. imnobody00

    Very insightful post, SSM. Your first comment deserves to be a post. Having said that…

    But it doesn’t work. Men don’t like slutty women for anything other than sex, as the last comment thread here rather conclusively proved. Men don’t find fat women attractive. Men don’t like bitchy, loud-mouthed mannish feminists

    But it does work. As Dalrock has shown there is no marriage strike and the number of never married women in their late thirties is tiny. In the last thirty years, the quality of American women has dropped dramatically and the marriage rates have only decreased a little bit. When Amanda Marcotte or your average feminist is able to get married, why should they care about what men want.

    If 30% of women could never get married’ you will see women in masse rejecting feminism and going to the gym. But men marry slutty women. Men marry fat women. Men marry bitchy women. It happens all the time.

  119. Artisanal Toad

    @Imnobody00

    All change happens at the margin. Anecdotally, what I see is a huge change. Men are finally waking up and refusing to marry the fat, bitchy women. Men are starting to demand a bit of reciprocity from women and it is happening at the margins. The issue is this: will she submit? That is the question. Will she submit?

  120. malcolmthecynic

    Here’s a newsflash from my experience that might be worth mentioning: Men are afraid too. Terrified, in fact. I know people who would throw themselves in front of a bullet for their family, but you think they’re REALLY ready for this?

    No! Men are TERRIFIED the moment will come…and we’ll chicken out. This is a thought that literally keeps us awake at night. It’s more than fear of losing your loved ones, though that’s a huge part of it. It’s feeling responsible for it. Men carry this fear all day, every day, their entire lives. Women don’t have the monopoly on fear.

  121. Looking Glass

    Markets tend to blow up from the “outside to inside”. With the Marriage Market, it’s the 2nd marriages that have started to vanish. Guys really aren’t getting remarried. That’s the reason for the much lower total marriage Rate, compared to the Percentage of “Never Married”.

    So the “landing pad” guy is going away. Once it starts filtering down into the under-30 age bracket, then things will start to really change. That could be 20 years off, however.

  122. feeriker

    The issue is this: will she submit? That is the question. Will she submit?

    Here in Amerika, chances are 95-plus percent that the answer to that question is NO.

  123. Maeve

    @TBC,
    “Those women had to worry about rape, yes, but it was likely not the constant grinding fear that seems to be what feminist women describe when they talk of rape culture.”

    That’s because feminist women have redefined “rape” with a definition so wide you could sail a carrier through it. And this was a necessary redefinition. If you want to establish a victimhood mentality as your NORM (which is what feminists do), then there needs to be a source of said victimization – and rape is perfect for that purpose. This is why there is such a tremendous push to have women scrutinize every interaction they have with men, to see if any of it can fall under the “rape experience” umbrella. It’s disgusting, but that’s what it is. This need to maintain women as victims is an insidious attempt at unification and control – funny how it’s the women who are now attempting to control other women, while still accusing men of it.

  124. Mychael

    “Again, I suggest coming home after your husband does, and see what happens. Well, we both know what will happen. The baby will make a fuss over you.”

    There have been days where my husband is home before me. The result is the same. Of course they are happy to see me then it is right back to Daddy. This doesn’t mean that they love me less. Children are just naturally drawn to a deep soothing voice.

    You seem concerned with the excitement being totally equal. This is something that we won’t agree on. Mainly because I’m not a flaming feminist. I like the differences between myself & my husband. He has a deep soothing voice that this kids love & cling to. I fill other needs for the kids that my husband naturally does not. That is what is so fascinating about the DIFFERENCES between men and women. We don’t have to be equal in all things.

  125. Cail Corishev

    I wonder if some of this fear is at the back of the ‘hysteria’ over rape-culture and such things.

    It seems likely. Imagine a housewife in the 1950s. She’s home alone all day, in an era when delivery men were bringing milk and other goods to the house, she might need to have a repairman come work on the washing machine, and salesmen were knocking on the door with everything from vacuum cleaners to encyclopedias. She didn’t carry mace (though she might know where her husband’s gun was), and she probably didn’t even lock the doors. But was she afraid of these men or men in general? Not significantly, because she had a husband. And in having a husband, even when he was gone to work, she had a protective structure around her — a neighborhood, people watching out for her, other men who would band together to help. Getting married shut out the wilderness and allowed her to feel safe.

    Now consider the 2013 feminist. Maybe she’s a sassy single, or maybe she has a mangina “partner” of a man; either way, she doesn’t have that same protection. She lives in an apartment building (or dorm) with a doorman and security system; she carries mace in her purse and has taken a few karate classes. No man ever comes to her door uninvited. But does she feel as safe as the 1950s housewife who leaves the backdoor open so the milkman can come in the kitchen and put it in the fridge? Not even close. Even though the protective structures of civilization still exist all around her, she hasn’t fully claimed them by putting herself under the protection of a man.

    I’m reminded of a season of Survivior (yes, really). For those who aren’t familiar with the show, in the 7th season, Rob and Amber were two contestants who fell in love, and he proposed to her in the final episode. In several interviews, Amber was asked what she liked about Rob (because she was gorgeous and he was considered a low-class jerk), and she always mentioned how he made her feel safe. That grossed out a lot of female fans of the show, because of course she was letting down the herd by not exhibiting the right kind of you-go-girl independence. But I think she was expressing what every woman feels about the man she’s in love with, but most are afraid to say or even recognize. (She took his name and they’ve been married for eight years and have three little girls, despite the fact that they were viewed by many as dopey fame-whores who were probably staging the thing for attention. Imagine that.) I think the married women here have expressed it well: there’s a certain amount of constant, low-level anxiety in being female, which they may not even be aware of, but which is assuaged by submitting to a man.

  126. earl

    “So the “landing pad” guy is going away.”

    If women had all their landing pad options taken away…they’d straighten up real fast.

    For men…we have little if any safety net anymore.

  127. Elspeth

    But men marry slutty women. Men marry fat women. Men marry bitchy women. It happens all the time.

    Yes, this. It does happen all the time. We try to pretend that it doesn’t, but it’s not that uncommon, really.

    Our next door neighbor married about a couple of years ago. Not a bad looking guy. Blonde, a little overweight, but handsome enough. He owns his house. I think he’s 32 now, he told my husband recently.

    His wife is chubby, tatted, and my husband insists she looks older than he is. She’s not very friendly either, LOL.

    But she got a decent looking man with a job and a house to marry her.

  128. feeriker

    she had a protective structure around her — a neighborhood

    And this protective structure, in the form of a neighborhood, worked back in the days when neighborhoods’ populations tended to be relatively stable (i.e., before the advent of cheap, FED-injected money for low-interest mortgages), everyone in the neighborhood knew everybody else, and neighbors socialized regularly with each other.

    Except for neighborhoods in small rural towns, all of that is gone now. No one stays in one place for very long anymore, meaning that neighborhoods are mostly inhabited by transients who don’t put roots down in them and who don’t make any attempt to know or socialize with their neighbors. Sadly, even in neighborhoods with relatively stable populations of long-term residents, people avoid each other like the plague and rarely ever socialize. Thus a housewife today, while probably not really threatened seriously by violent crime any more than was her 1950s-60s ancestor, still lacks, other than from her husband, the protective structure that her grandmother had.

    A tragic, but intentional feature (and yes, it’s a feature, not a bug) designed and put in place by the social engineers who rule over us.

  129. feeriker

    But men marry slutty women. Men marry fat women. Men marry bitchy women. It happens all the time.

    Yes, this. It does happen all the time. We try to pretend that it doesn’t, but it’s not that uncommon, really.

    As I said earlier, the collective majority of men haven’t yet been burned badly enough or suffered pain sufficiently unbearable to make them learn from their stupid mistakes and change course. It amazes me, when I stop to think about it, how much tolerance we have for the agony we inflict upon ourselves.

    I still hold out hope that things on their present course are so obviously unsustainable that their will, in the not very distant future, be a collective awakening and reversal of course. Unfortunately, I have a tendency to be wildly and unreasonably optimistic on those rare occasions when I’m an optimist at all.

    Our next door neighbor married about a couple of years ago. Not a bad looking guy. Blonde, a little overweight, but handsome enough. He owns his house. I think he’s 32 now, he told my husband recently.

    His wife is chubby, tatted, and my husband insists she looks older than he is. She’s not very friendly either, LOL.

    But she got a decent looking man with a job and a house to marry her.

    Another among the legions of blue pill gulpers (no doubt he convinced himself –or was convinced by others– that he couldn’t do any better than the woman he wound up marrying) who, in just a few years, will be ripe for receiving the red pill treatment once his tatted nightmare becomes unhaaaaaaappy, disillusioned with her marriage, and kicks him to the curb.

  130. redpillsetmefree

    But it does work. As Dalrock has shown there is no marriage strike and the number of never married women in their late thirties is tiny. In the last thirty years, the quality of American women has dropped dramatically and the marriage rates have only decreased a little bit. When Amanda Marcotte or your average feminist is able to get married, why should they care about what men want.

    All so very true. My take on it is that men still very much desire the company of women, even given all that the Red Pill reveals. And as Rollo has explained, men love idealistically and naively without realizing that women love very practically. (And American movies always depict it the other way around, as if women actually want some type of romantic adventure and men just want sex.)

    So the problem can be understood as one of being hungry and having few viable alternatives for meals. This is the impetus of Feminists hating both housewives and sex workers…both stop the fat bitchy sluts from being able to get any attention. One foundational aspect of Feminism is to give the women who can’t compete a chance to by moving the goal posts.

    So it comes down to the same thing it always does for men: resources. If you’ve got game, and you can travel, you can literally experience a world of women, and never have to be locked into the ridiculous punitive contract that Americans call marriage.

    If you don’t have either, and you still heavily require the company of women, you have to take what you can get, and the slutting up starts earlier & earlier with each new generation.

    There has to be a reason for people to change, especially when it comes to indulgent behavior, and so far, American men have given no reason for American women not to be what they’ve become.

  131. earl

    “But she got a decent looking man with a job and a house to marry her.”

    A sated man loathes honey, but to a famished man any bitter thing is sweet.

    Proverbs 27:7

  132. redpillsetmefree

    In addition, I think that during these conversations fail to take into account a few things:

    -The WWII generation wasn’t that long ago. it’s still a relatively recent phenomenon to marry for tingles and not for the long haul. People still get married with rose colored glasses on, they just don’t stay married as much once they come off. Unless I’m wrong about divorce stats, that is.

    -Most people are in the middle….most are 5-7s. Very few men are rich, hence the phrase “the one percenters.” Very few women are 10s, and if they are, they’re only that until they’re 30 years old. So it’s still that all the women want the top men, but most of the women that are in the middle don’t even have to try any more to get a 5-7 man, because everything male has been delegitimized unless you’re a one percenter.

    -The American dream has changed, it’s no longer about having & maintaining a family.

  133. earl

    “So the problem can be understood as one of being hungry and having few viable alternatives for meals.”

    The only way things will change is if men take to heart the lyrics of one Chris Cornell.

    “Follow me into the desert as thirsty as you are.”

  134. Scott

    “This is a really great point. But I have to ask- what of infertile women? Certainly sex serves more of a purpose than procreation. Perhaps the sort of fertility we are talking about is both literal procreation and the idea of “one flesh” in the sense of a uniting of spirits?”

    Having recently gone through a Catholic marriage enhancement course, I can say their position is pretty clear on this. When you give yourself sexually to your spouse, you are to give 100%, including your fertility. Remember, Sarah was considered “barren” and yet conceived. If you are open to the possibility of life, you can fully enjoy each others sexuality regardless of the scientific liklihood of a baby actually being conceived.

  135. Guest

    “You seem concerned with the excitement being totally equal. ”

    No, it just seems odd and unusual. Most young children are deeply bonded with their mothers. However, I’m glad it works for you!

  136. Farm Boy

    With the Marriage Market, it’s the 2nd marriages that have started to vanish.

    What is really needed is a stat of marriage-years as a percentage of person-years at every age group. And do this over the course of years.

    This would be very revealing, but would perhaps be politically incorrect

  137. Farm Boy

    Most young children are deeply bonded with their mothers.

    Well, we can’t have that. Best to put them in day-care centers while Mom works

  138. sunshinemary Post author

    Welp, Manboobz was displeased by this article. In his post last night, Mr. Futrelle writes:

    Yep, that’s right. Sunshine Mary believes that women are incapable of taking care of themselves and so must depend, essentially, on appeasing men in order to survive. She thinks she’s lucky because she only has to appease one man, while women who actually, you know, earn a living have to appease all men. Because they’re not really earning a living. They’re just playing at earning a living because the men of the world are nice enough to humor them.

    Actually, he has summarized my position rather well. I do believe that many women are playing at earning a living on their own. I do believe that women depend heavily on both government aid and men’s good will. But perhaps I am wrong. Any thoughts?

  139. deti

    “I wish I didn’t think this way, but it’s a matter of survival. I’m not risking financial ass rape so my “wife” can suddenly pursue her EPL urges.

    “I’m much better off single. Why buy the cow…..

    Funny thing is, ladies, 30 to 50 years ago, Danny was an ideal husband and father,

    Engaging personality. Good guy to men and women alike. Treats everyone with respect and commands respect in return. Can hang with men, game women, and game kids.

    Is equally able to drink a beer with you and kick your ass if you need it.

    Career Navy. Guaranteed pension. Adept with all manner of firearms and weaponry. Will have good second career in which he makes megabucks.

    If you help him; he’ll help you right back. If you threaten him, he will go medieval on your ass and, if necessary, kill to protect himself. One of the safest places around is with him.

    And no woman or child will ever be a permanent beneficiary of all he can offer.

    [ssm: I've thought the same thing. He's an ideal husband (for a woman who could handle a very charming man who would have a lot of other ladies flirting with him), but he'll never marry, and understandably so. But I have been unable to reason with women outside the sphere about this. There is total head-in-the-sand denial that the future will bring more men who think as Danny does.]

  140. Farm Boy

    while women who actually, you know, earn a living have to appease all men.

    Does that include the baby mamas? The ones that depend in the taxes men pay?

    Perhaps they do earn a living

  141. Scott

    “No, it just seems odd and unusual. Most young children are deeply bonded with their mothers. However, I’m glad it works for you!”

    One thing you will find if you hang around websites like this is rhetorical parlor tricks and logical fallacies are pretty quickly weeded out. This may be shocking at first, especially if you come from the snarky, shreiking echo chamber of GOMI, etc.

    For example, your use of the false dichotomy, namely “EITHER Mychael is right OR her children are bonded to her.” You have attempted to drive a wedge between my wife and our children where there is no wedge–unless everyone reading accepts your premise. Nice try, but most commenters here just aren’t that stupid.

    This probably comes from the belief that there can be nothing unique that a male parent brings to the table– a pretty common modern presupposition.

    Also, the thinly veiled attampt to portray our family as weird or socially non-normative is obnoxious. It only hidden by your feigned curiosity about the dynamic.

  142. earl

    “while women who actually, you know, earn a living have to appease all men.”

    And how is this any different from a man who has to earn a living? Even the guys who run business have to appease men so that their business can stay open.

    That’s called equality.

  143. Farm Boy

    And no woman or child will ever be a permanent beneficiary of all he can offer

    He will pay taxes forever though

  144. earl

    “Funny thing is, ladies, 30 to 50 years ago, Danny was an ideal husband and father,”

    Ladies have their pick of the litter of ideal husband and fathers, they could find plenty around these parts…but they would rather collect cocks and money instead because tingles are more important.

  145. Rollo Tomassi

    I think the thing that’s being overlooked here is Marcotte being a shining example of female solipsism. Her first, default response isn’t an attempt to critically understand what Just Saying’s real point is about and offer any counter analysis or rebuttal; her mental process defaults to ‘how is this about me?’ and ‘why should I care about his (globally men’s) opinion of me?’

    Granted, feminists of Marcotte’s calibre are deeply ego-invested in their ideology, so anything that sounds like an attack on that ideology is an attack on her as a person. However, feminism, being founded in the feminine imperative, can’t be anything more than an extension of female solipsism. So Just Saying’s observation about women offering nothing more than a sexual release as the result of acculturated feminism for the past 50+ years cannot prompt feminists to any kind of self-analysis or critical insight, because that would require them to push past that solipsism and acknowledge something beyond themselves as being legitimate.

    Thus her response, “Why should women want the attention of men who see them as nothing more than unpaid servants and semen toilets?”

    Just Saying’s comment was objective, Marcotte’s response is subjective.

  146. deti

    “As I said earlier, the collective majority of men haven’t yet been burned badly enough or suffered pain sufficiently unbearable to make them learn from their stupid mistakes and change course. It amazes me, when I stop to think about it, how much tolerance we have for the agony we inflict upon ourselves.

    “I still hold out hope that things on their present course are so obviously unsustainable that their will, in the not very distant future, be a collective awakening and reversal of course. Unfortunately, I have a tendency to be wildly and unreasonably optimistic on those rare occasions when I’m an optimist at all.”

    This is exactly correct. But the reason most men haven’t been burned badly enough is because they’re being taught that the feminist world they live in is normal.

    Consider the world around 1960. Feminists told men that free love and sex meant that all men would get the benefits because all men would be getting sex with women, without marriage. And men would not have to support women anymore if they didn’t want to because women would have their own jobs. Great deal, right? Didn’t work out that way. Shorn of their obligations and hypergamy controls, in the 1970s women en masse flocked to the hottest men to have sex with them, and only them.

    In the early 1970s no fault divorce swept the nation, so neither men nor women had to stay in loveless, sexless marriages. Great deal, right? Didn’t work out that way. Women quickly learned they could use the system to extract resources from men and get back on the carousel to relive the glory days. Men got screwed again.

    In the 1980s, men were told “Be nice, be yourself”. Great advice, right? Didn’t work out that way. They did it and got shot down in flames every time.

    First our feminist overlords told us “feminism is great and will give us all great things” .

    Then they said “be nice and be yourself, and you’ll get a girl who’s equal to you.”

    Now they say “agree with us, or you’re a sexist pig who lives in his mom’s basement and who’s never getting laid!”

    Very soon, our feminist overlords will say “agree with us, or we’ll hunt you down and make sure you never work. We’ll revoke your professional licenses so you can’t work. We’ll doxx you and publish your home address, your place of work, your social security number. We’ll harass you and destroy your private life. We’ll ostracize you from society and push you to its margins where you’ll have to live in poverty. We’ll trump up some kind of felony charges against you, put you through a show trial, and imprison you. Yeah, you’ve got free speech. But you’ll have to stand behind that free speech with your real name, and hey, if you and yours suffer for it, well, hey, that’s just how it is.”

  147. Anonymous Reader

    SSM regarding Manbooby’s latest:
    Any thoughts?

    Sure. Yawn…where’s my coffee cup…yum…

    Ok. What was the question again? Oh, yes, manbooby…

    Look, his mind is made up. Facts are just an annoyance to be explained away, in manboobyland. So why bother?

  148. Farm Boy

    They’re just playing at earning a living because the men of the world are nice enough to humor them.

    Well, they have that right.

    Except for the “nice” part. “Coerced” would perhaps be more appropriate

  149. earl

    “agree with us, or we’ll hunt you down and make sure you never work.”

    Don’t forget to implant this chip into your hand.

  150. sunshinemary Post author

    @ RT
    I think you make a good point. Ms. Marcotte’s analysis really doesn’t address Just Saying’s point, which is that feminism has inadvertently led to some/many men being able to acquire sex with zero investment. Her argument was essentially to attack Just Saying, whom she accuses of lying about sleeping with a lot of women; she also says that he is probably bad in bed.

    The solipsism thing isn’t so surprising. AWALT. Me too. It’s only with great effort that I can consider things from men’s point of view. It never occurred to me to do so before I started reading in the manosphere. It’s how women are. Society does best when it acknowledges women’s self-absorption and both constrains it (with social sanctions) and channels it (into useful things like child-rearing).

  151. FuzzieWuzzie

    “Any thoughts?”
    From what i have seen of the workplace, men do get the more difficult and dangerous work. The incidence of workplace deathes (93%men) would tend to confirm this. Additionally, it seems that a lot of female emplyment is subsidized by taxes.
    On way or another, women are dependent on male provision. At least, under patriarchy it was direct. Substituting big daddy government is glossing it over.

  152. redpillsetmefree

    I do believe that many women are playing at earning a living on their own. I do believe that women depend heavily on both government aid and men’s good will. But perhaps I am wrong. Any thoughts?

    -Except possibly for service industries(and I don’t know for sure about them), there’s no field that men didn’t create, establish, and maintain, and then let women in. All of the women that ‘pioneered’ anything weren’t the first person to do it…women did it after men, and with men, and obviously with the help of men.
    -When you talk about women ‘earning’ a living, you have to then discount alimony, child support, and any welfare. None of that is money earned, it’s legally granted by status, not effort, and most taxes are paid by men.

  153. earl

    “Her argument was essentially to attack Just Saying, whom she accuses of lying about sleeping with a lot of women; she also says that he is probably bad in bed.”

    That’s all women have in arguments…attack the man’s ego or emotions. I don’t blame them…because it works most of the time.

    One of the many things I got from Fight Club is that the man needs to fight his precious emotions or ego first…get them to submit to something greater (like God or his mission)…and then the volume gets turned down when Ms. Harpie goes on the warpath.

  154. Lee Lee Bug

    @Mychael

    I have girls and they’ve always had a soft spot for their dad. I’ve heard the same is true for sons and moms.

    My four-year-old is so attached that it’s hard for me to not feel badly sometimes. She’s fine and loving when she’s with me. I have today off and we’ve been having fun all morning.

    But, as soon as my husband gets home she’ll be his little shadow, following him around all over the place and pretty much ignoring me. Also, at night she’ll let me read her a story, but insists that he crawl into bed and cuddle her until she falls asleep. If I try to do it, she just cries for him until he comes into her room.

    My older girls were never this extreme. They vied for his attention, but were perfectly happy spending time with me as well.

    It brings back memories of my college psychology 101 classes and all those lectures about Freud’s theories about how little girls secretly want to marry their dads.

  155. sunshinemary Post author

    If one is looking to garner resources, it helps

    Yes, it does. And it’s just one of those necessary things that God (or to Darwinists, evolution) built into us. We have to have male investment to make and raise children. There is no real alternative to that, so some degree of female-centeredness is just how humans are built. The problem is that society has gone insane and allowed women to turn into horrible monsters that are trying to drain resources from all men everywhere without upholding any part of the bargain themselves.

    Screeching about women being solipsistic and concerned about resources will avail us very little. That’s like crying about the fact that men are built to love the idea of a harem of females; it’s just how they are, so there is no sense in flipping out about that tendency. But polygynous societies don’t function very well, so we constrain it. Both sexes need to be constrained for society to function.

  156. earl

    “I have girls and they’ve always had a soft spot for their dad. I’ve heard the same is true for sons and moms.”

    As long as the mother isn’t a hardcore feminist…and actually nutures the son.

  157. Deep Strength

    @ SSM

    Actually, he has summarized my position rather well. I do believe that many women are playing at earning a living on their own. I do believe that women depend heavily on both government aid and men’s good will. But perhaps I am wrong. Any thoughts?

    People need to have their needs met. Money is just one of the things that you can exchange for goods such as food et al.

    Why would women want to do it for themselves when they could have a husband do it for them?

    Why would you want to rely on your own and/or the government when your standard of living is much worse than with a man?

    Is being “independent” really worth that much?

    This is the lie that feminism makes women believe.

    Good will and governments funds will eventually run out. But a husband will go to the ends of the earth to provide for his family.

  158. Farm Boy

    fact that men are built to love the idea of a harem of females

    But those are illegal. Devious schemes are not.

  159. Carlotta

    @ Elspeth
    I think you miss my point. I was simply reflecting back to him what he said.

    My point is that every time there is a thought provoking discussion between the sexes who are like minded on improving things and bouncing ideas off each other someone comes by with one of these stupid comments.
    If it is a femenist she gets slammed. If it is a MGTOW he is not. Neither actually have a dog in the fight. If they are so happy move on. Some of us are trying to work on things, usually because we have children.

  160. Carlotta

    @ Mychael

    Agreed.
    If you actually raise children you know this.
    Even at about 6 months and nursing our babies wanted Daddy for fun, cuddles and the second they were scared. They wanted me for food, emotional comfort and if they were sick.
    Scared children want Dad.
    Sick children want Mom.
    Married couples and intact families meet all these needs. Almost like someone designed it that way.

  161. Ellie

    “playing at earning a living”

    Most women are in menial service jobs and have neither the skills, inclination or IQ to move into other jobs. Those jobs are kept at a “living wage” by being protected by teen labor laws and the minimum wage (in other words, by forcing others out of the labor pool). There is a significant problem with a society where the most intelligent are busy figuring out ways to skim massive amounts of money out of the rest instead of using their intelligence to create jobs for stupid people. The politicians need to keep people busy, so they write regulations that result in an enormous class of paper pushers who are busy all day, but there is no net contribution to society at the end of it. How does one solve this problem?

  162. Cail Corishev

    Actually, he has summarized my position rather well. I do believe that many women are playing at earning a living on their own. I do believe that women depend heavily on both government aid and men’s good will. But perhaps I am wrong. Any thoughts? — SSM

    He’s just playing NAWALT here. Yes, of course there are some women who produce more outside the home than they consume, who pay taxes and get no aid. But there are an awful lot of make-work jobs out there, and they’re predominantly filled by women. (I sometimes wonder which came first: did we invent so many make-work jobs (like Diversity Counselor) because feminism was pushing so many unskilled women into the workforce and they needed something to do, or did women start working because there were so many easy jobs out there? Mostly the former, I think.) There are also many women who are only able to take the low-paying jobs they have because they get various types of assistance. If not for WIC and its sisters, the single mom who works at Wal-Mart would have to find a husband (and she’d be grateful to him when she did).

    If you look at jobs that produce something concrete — like pouring concrete — you’ll find that they’re overwhelmingly done by men. Not just the jobs that require upper body strength either; any job that has specific, measurable results — farmer, mechanic, programmer, miner, truck driver — is done mostly by men. Even jobs that are typically thought of as woman’s work, like cooking and sewing, are done more by men at the professional level where productivity and quality are critical.

    If your output can be counted or put in a basket and measured, there’s a good chance you’re a man. If your output has to be judged by reading your reports, or can be skewed by whether your boss is having a good day, there’s a better chance you’re a woman. That’s just how it is. That doesn’t mean there aren’t some very hard-working women out there in everything from nursing to biotech. But they’re easily outnumbered by the ones who are piddling around in an office somewhere deciding stuff like what font to use on a web page. They also could easily be replaced by men, millions of whom are unemployed; and taking those women and their unproductive sisters out of the work force would raise everyone’s standard of living while at the same time improving home lives and parenting.

  163. redpillsetmefree

    But those are illegal. Devious schemes are not.

    As with all things. Any thing that gives pleasure to a man is illegal.

    No law against women deceiving men at any time, for any reason, by any means necessary, except for the occasional woman that can’t make her rape charge stick and gets punished for it.

  164. Ellie

    tsk, tsk, Cail. Your solution would mean that each woman would need her own man. That is not allowed. The US is the closest, historically, that any major civilization has gotten to sharing their women in common (one of the original communist ideals…). Women used to be repressed private property but are now liberated and free!

  165. redpillsetmefree

    @Carlotta

    My point is that every time there is a thought provoking discussion between the sexes who are like minded on improving things and bouncing ideas off each other someone comes by with one of these stupid comments.
    If it is a feminist she gets slammed. If it is a MGTOW he is not. Neither actually have a dog in the fight.

    The very fact that you could post that with(I’m assuming) a straight face is hilarious. Yet another feeble attempt at equating things that are by no means equal, to let women off the hook.

    Let’s compare the two, shall we?

    Feminism:
    -Suffrage, which has lead directly to a welfare state
    -Sexual emancipation of women, which leads to sluttery & a welfare state
    -A national climate of hostile misandry
    -A constant warring to accept sluts, fatties, and bitches as normal
    -Miserable women in mid-life as they realize they do want husbands & children
    -The most masculine women in American history
    -Unparalleled levels of divorce theft by women
    -Generations of children without fathers in their homes
    -An increase in STDs

    MGTOW:
    -Born in reaction to Feminism, wouldn’t need to exist without it
    -A focused effort to not create more fatherless children
    -Keeping the wealth that you’ve earned instead of paying for others to have it
    -Getting sex from women who have decided to give it away for free anyway

    …Hmmmm….I wonder why the slamming…..

  166. Elspeth

    @ Elspeth
    I think you miss my point. I was simply reflecting back to him what he said.

    My point is that every time there is a thought provoking discussion between the sexes who are like minded on improving things and bouncing ideas off each other someone comes by with one of these stupid comments.
    If it is a femenist she gets slammed. If it is a MGTOW he is not. Neither actually have a dog in the fight. If they are so happy move on. Some of us are trying to work on things, usually because we have children.

    You’re right Carlotta. It is true that posts with the potential to offer substantive debate often devolve back into the same circular commentary.

    I was referring more to your tone than the substance of what you offered.

  167. Lee Lee Bug

    @Ellie,
    Most women are in menial service jobs and have neither the skills, inclination or IQ to move into other jobs. Those jobs are kept at a “living wage” by being protected by teen labor laws and the minimum wage (in other words, by forcing others out of the labor pool).

    I think you’d make a stronger argument by more clearly defining “most women.” If you are referring to women from lower socio-economic classes you are probably right as they are more likely to be poorly educated with limited marketplace skills and less ambition as they understand that they have few opportunities for improving their lot in life.

    If you are referring to college educated women from the middle and upper classes, your assertion is mostly incorrect. Most of the women in my social circle scale back to less demanding professional jobs while their children are young (or drop out of the workforce for a few years), but they retain their skills (and sometimes further them though volunteer work or by taking classes) and are unlikely to switch to menial service jobs unless they find themselves in dire financial straits.

    Also, you seem to be confused about “minimum wage” versus “living wage.” The minimum wage is the lowest wage that an employee can legally be paid. There is a national minimum wage ($7.25 per hour), but states are allowed to set it higher. My state, for instance, sets it at just over $8.

    The living wage is generally defined as what someone working 40 hours a week would need to earn to pay modest rent and living expenses. In my state that is defined as $15 per hour for jobs that offer health insurance and $17 for jobs that do not. Only one city in my state forces employers to pay a living wage and the law only applies to businesses with state contracts and has many loopholes.

    I am in agreement that forcing employers to pay a living wage is bad for business. Paying $15 an hour to kids who work at McDonalds would drive the fast food giant out of business or force it to charge outrageous prices.

    At the same time, I realize that my taxpayer dollars subsidize McDonalds and other businesses that pay $7.25 to full-time adult workers as these people will likely need government assistance in the form of Food Stamps, Medicaid, and housing vouchers.

  168. Rollo Tomassi

    Crime: http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/09/10/20422793-florida-man-admits-he-tricked-girlfriend-into-taking-abortion-drug

    Not a Crime: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/07/opinion/alimony-for-your-eggs.html?_r=0

    Crime: http://www.returnofkings.com/16637/negative-hiv-tests-for-sale

    Not a Crime: http://www.dailydot.com/lifestyle/positive-pregnancy-tests-craigslist/

    Any more questions about feminine social primacy being the only legitimate social gender frame?

  169. Ellie

    Most women… as in the majority of them. Most women are not from the upper classes. And the majority of women who work do so on a slightly more than part-time basis. You want to debate this, fine. Just check your statistics first.

    I am not confused about the difference between the living wage and the minimum wage. Living wage… as in what it takes to support a middle class lifestyle. This would not be possible for a lot of jobs if lower cost substitutes were allowed in (thus minimum wage & teen labor laws). If it takes 2 dumb/slow people to do the job or 1 smarter/faster person, I will go with the 2 slow people if they cost less. But since teenagers do not have the right to a job, it is okay to screw them in order to benefit women on the margins.

  170. Ellie

    I think it is ironic that all of those people who rattle on and on about discrimination against minorities are the ones who push most for minimum wage and teen labor laws. Who is hurt the most by this? African-American boys. The outcome of their policies is harm to the people they claim to have compassion for.

  171. Mychael

    @Carlotta & Le Le Bug…
    The someone that made it this way is God. Men & women are different. My husband & I enjoy this & believe it to be fundamental.
    We each are able to give our children different things.

    @Earl…
    I am NOT a ball busting feminist. I believe that my eldest son does enjoy my company for different reasons than he enjoys my husbands. On the contrary, his cousin has a very hardcore feminist for a mom & he hates being at home. I agree, if the mom/wife is nurturing & kind then the men in the home have a safe & comfortable place to live.

  172. earl

    Yeah I go to dad when I need advice or a sounding board to ideas I have…and to mom to let her know what I’ve been up to or how I’ve been feeling lately.

  173. Looking Glass

    @Ellie:

    Know the best part about minimum wage laws? The place that first put them to great effect was South Africa under Apartheid. That’s not a joke.

    It still works that effectively.

  174. Pingback: Feminism is Thought Control

  175. feeriker

    I do believe that many women are playing at earning a living on their own. I do believe that women depend heavily on both government aid and men’s good will. But perhaps I am wrong. Any thoughts?

    No, SSM, you’re the farthest from wrong that anyone could be in your assumption. Any man who now works or who has worked in a corporate environment anywhere in the Anglosphere over the last three decades will concur heartily with your assessment (if not, they’re living in some alternate universe that I’m unaware of).

    I should resemble Charles Atlas by now, considering all the weight I’ve carried for women (especially those in “middle management” or “senior management”) over the past 15 years alone (I work in the IT field, so you can only imagine how many “tokens” there are amongst the females in the workforce, especially in “management”).

  176. Carlotta

    The very fact that you could post that with(I’m assuming) a straight face is hilarious. Yet another feeble attempt at equating things that are by no means equal, to let women off the hook.

    This is exactly what I mean.
    It isnt enough to agree.
    It isnt enough to discuss.
    It isnt enough to fight against it.
    It is not enough to do the right thing.

    So along with several other women who actually have a dog in this fight and are actually engaging in the war, I will just stop listening to this type of non-stop whinning. Some people cant tell friend from foe and I am not interested in taking friendly fire.

    Femenists dont have a lock on being the enemy here.

  177. Ellie

    Carlotta, why the unnecessary attack on Elspeth? She said nothing that could be construed as inflammatory. If it is not enough to fight against it or personally do the right thing, what is enough? Come on, Carlotta. What is it you expect of people that would be “enough” in your eyes?

    As far as I am concerned, anyone who debates contentious things in a public forum is open to fire- friendly or otherwise. These topics are contentious for a reason- we do not all agree. Disagreement is not the same a whining. People argue about the same topics because they are near and dear to their minds, as I assume they are for you. As far as “people who have a dog in this fight” goes- that would be anyone who lives in a feminist society- so who exactly were you referring to as not being qualified to offer an opinion?

  178. Cadders

    SSM; ‘Both sexes need to be constrained for society to function.’

    This. And you know what, if you control women’s behavior, you automatically control men’s. When women were raised to set the price of sex to be a productive member of society, marry and raise a family, guess what most men did? Yep.

    Now we have a system that sets women free to do whatever they want whilst setting more and more controls on men’s behavior. How’s that working out?

    It will flip back in due course as the current experiment is failing. Problem is this experiment has produced some unanticipated results. It has revealed the true nature of women to increasing numbers of men. And made them consider carefully the pros and cons of the ‘old’ ways.

    Whatever form the ‘reset’ takes, it is unlikely to give much attention to what women want. Except of course it will – because by then what women want will be some kind of patriarchy.

  179. feeriker

    Ellie asked Carlotta, why the unnecessary attack on Elspeth? She said nothing that could be construed as inflammatory.

    A raw nerve hath been struck and the lady doth protest far too much.

  180. Just Saying

    I found Ms Marcotte’s comments rather disgusting and derogatory to women. To quote Ms Marcotte: “women are a repulsive subhuman class whose only purpose is service to men”

    And of course Ms Marcotte’s description of women as: “nothing more than unpaid servants and semen toilets”

    All of this hatred focused toward women from the simple observation that women (especially young women) have achieved the overall goals of Feminism – that men no longer see them as “women” (to be protected, married, and admired simply because they are “women”). We see them for what they are to us, not as a “group” but individually, and what they can provide to us, and offer us (men) to improve the quality of our lives, as I assume we (men) improve theirs. Not derogatorily, but as lovely and sweet, and providing us with something of value to us that only they can provide – SEX. With no strings attached. Perhaps I am missing something? So let’s see…

    Women no longer provide cooking, or cleaning, or being a “mother to his children”, or any of a myriad of other things women used to provide “of value” to men, but they do provide men with sex – something men have always valued – perhaps above all other things. If all I wanted was companionship, I’d get a dog, or get together with friends for a drink. Of course, since Ms Marcotte equates women with a subhuman class, I can see why she may be confused. So let me be clear, I assume that women are just as much into sex as I am and into enjoying it with another human being, as I am. Young women make no demands on me other than when we get together for sex. This is ideal for me, and many MEN. And when we grow tired of one-another, we can move on to another with no financial or other strings attached. I have to assume this arrangement is ideal for women as well – otherwise why would they have worked so hard for it? Why would they (Feminists) have worked so hard to bring about this ideal world (for men from my perspective)? But to be honest, I couldn’t care less WHY? They have – so that works for me. I don’t know, maybe I’m not supposed to be happy with this world, but I am… So mark me down as one of the cheerleaders for Feminism, and all that it has given to men. It has given men unlimited sex with unlimited women, with none of the traditional “costs” associated with sex… (Well, limited only by the women that find him attractive – but wasn’t that always the case?)

    I apologize for any animosity directed at you (SSM) for my simple observational comment. Ms Marcotte obviously suffers from deep-seated “issues”. (The rantings of a lunatic come to mind, and if she is married, her husband should see that she gets the help and medications she needs.) All I did was to provide the opinion of one man – praising Feminists for all they have given to men. And I certainly never claimed Wilt Chamberlain levels of women in my bed – Didn’t he claim to have had sex with almost 10,000 women?
    http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20060616100358AAImTYl
    (But I do admit to applauding him for his efforts…. And his amazing stamina….)

  181. Farm Boy

    The problem is that society has gone insane and allowed women to turn into horrible monsters that are trying to drain resources from all men everywhere without upholding any part of the bargain themselves.

    It really all comes down to this

  182. Carlotta

    Ellie I have no clue what you are talking about.

    You appear to be mixing up a comment where I did address Elspeth ( who I respect and am a loooong time reader of) with a comment where I quoted and reacted to redpill.

    Hope that clears it up for you.

  183. redpillsetmefree

    What you are feeling Carlotta, is backlash. Men everywhere have had their fill of this abusive femcentric culture. We are not starting from a level playing field, and as I stated, MGTOW is a reaction to Feminism, not the other way around.
    Plenty of men still want wives. All that’s on offer for the most part are leftovers and ATM contract holders.

    So trying to act like men aren’t going to be angry about these truths is misguided.

  184. Sarah's Daughter

    redpill,
    Something got messed up here, Carlotta was originally responding to what feeriker had said here: http://sunshinemaryandthedragon.wordpress.com/2013/10/17/scary-reality-my-response-to-amanda-marcottes-criticism-of-my-essay/#comment-31369
    Who was responding to what donalgreame had said: “I think that women are hardwired to seek out the company/presence of men for a feeling of security, especially the company of a single, powerful and dominant man.”

    Feeriker’s “show of hands” comment is actually quite odd. When we are analyzing what is hardwired within a woman, for someone to appeal to the guys with a tone that this is something that should be rejected or viewed as a bug not a feature, it should be called out. If this is hardwired, it necessarily means it can not be changed within women, that she’d have to conscientiously deny her nature in order for it to not hold true. As a mother, like Carlotta, I will not be advising my daughters to go against their hardwired nature to seek out security in the man they’ll marry.

    His comment: “How many of you are looking for a woman who wants you for nothing more than to serve as a security blanket with muscles and a wallet?” is very misleading and smells of the whining Carlotta is speaking of. SSM mentioned correctly that this is not the only thing women are looking for. It can not be denied, however, that these are something women innately seek in their marriage partner – provision/protection. If a man does not like that these (protection/provision) are components they’ll be vetted for, they should declare themselves non marriage material and go on their way. This will not be changed. Fathers will not change it in their daughters, nor will mothers.

    There is nothing abusive about vetting a man for his provision/protection abilities. Does it fall w/in the feminine imperative? Perhaps. But anyone will be hardpressed to prove it is not innate, instinctual, hardwired, not going away, not going to change etc. If you are a man who wants a woman to “love you for who you are” without evaluating your ability to protect her or provide for her and your children, your search will be long and arduous. It is best you proclaim you are a MGTOW and follow it up with action – your commentary is not needed in a forum of men and women who know and accept this innate feature of women.

  185. ballista74

    In the past, women behaved properly because they wanted to be seen in a good light by men. They wanted this because they knew they needed men both to survive and in order to be happy. But it was frustrating because we had to rein in our worst tendencies.

    It’s not so much the idea that women wanted to be seen in a good light by men, but the fact that consequence was present. It helped that they knew men were in a position to withdraw anything that they freely gave to make a point if women acted disrespectfully. Of course, there was the lingering consideration of traditional feminism out there, but husbands were generally left to manage their own families. But now any recourse that men have against women have been completely removed from them by both the government and the churches, save not marrying them in the first place. Women have known this since Marxist feminism began becoming common (about 40-50 years ago), and have acted according to their base impulses.

    TL;DR: No real consequences are brought to bear when women rebel against God, therefore they’re rebelling against God.

  186. Elspeth

    If you are a man who wants a woman to “love you for who you are” without evaluating your ability to protect her or provide for her and your children, your search will be long and arduous.

    I agree. It’s the equivalent of the slovenly overweight woman saying “love me for me!”

  187. redpillsetmefree

    @Sarah’sDaughter

    You’re misunderstanding me. I am not in disagreement with what you’re saying; I wasn’t even addressing a woman’s hardwiring. I was responding to this:

    This is exactly what I mean.
    It isn’t enough to agree.
    It isn’t enough to discuss.
    It isn’t enough to fight against it.
    It is not enough to do the right thing.

    So along with several other women who actually have a dog in this fight and are actually engaging in the war, I will just stop listening to this type of non-stop whining. Some people can’t tell friend from foe and I am not interested in taking friendly fire.

    Feminists don’t have a lock on being the enemy here.

    Carlotta seemed to be wondering why some males keep responding the way we do, and I was addressing that. Because men aren’t whining. It’s backlash. Because many women seem to think that after decades of male bashing, men would just be all neutral about “agreeing, discussion, fighting against it, and doing the right thing” from women. Some women.

    These statements of yours:

    It cannot be denied, however, that these are something women innately seek in their marriage partner – provision/protection. If a man does not like that these (protection/provision) are components they’ll be vetted for, they should declare themselves non marriage material and go on their way. This will not be changed. Fathers will not change it in their daughters, nor will mothers.
    There is nothing abusive about vetting a man for his provision/protection abilities. Does it fall w/in the feminine imperative? Perhaps. But anyone will be hard pressed to prove it is not innate, instinctual, hardwired, not going away, not going to change etc. If you are a man who wants a woman to “love you for who you are” without evaluating your ability to protect her or provide for her and your children, your search will be long and arduous.

    I have no disagreement with.
    In fact, as SSM rightly pointed out in the last comment thread, the converse is true as well:

    It cannot be denied, however, that these are something men innately seek in their marriage partner – chastity/fidelity. If a woman does not like that these (chastity/fidelity) are components they’ll be vetted for, they should declare themselves non marriage material and go on their way. This will not be changed. Fathers will not change it in their sons, nor will mothers.
    There is nothing abusive about vetting a woman for her chastity/fidelity abilities. Does it fall w/in the masculine imperative? Perhaps. But anyone will be hard pressed to prove it is not innate, instinctual, hardwired, not going away, not going to change etc. If you are a woman who wants a man to “love you for who you are” without evaluating your ability to be chaste, faithful to him, or respect him and raise his children, your search will be long and arduous. It is best you proclaim you are a ‘strong & independent woman’ and follow it up with action.

    …That’s not whining, folks. That’s male imperative.
    And so much of the ‘raw nerve’ thing that you feel from male commenters stems from having the male imperative be disrespected for so long.

    Because when it’s what a woman needs from a man, the response from women is, this is “innate, instinctual, hardwired, not going away, not going to change.”

    When it’s what a man needs from a woman, the response from women is, “Grace! Grace! Christ forgives! The blood! I’ve changed! Transforming power!”

    And of course, solipsistically, you can’t see why that kind of response might be irritating to men.

  188. redpillsetmefree

    And speaking of hardwiring in women, I know that you have absolutely no empathy for men; your only empathy is for other women. I understand that. So I know what I’m about to say will fly right over like a Concorde on its way to Japan.

    But the truth of the relationship arena is this:

    If a man is not a good provider/protector, a woman will not accept him. Sarah’s Daughter just spent a whole comment telling me that, and Elspeth cheerfully chimed in in agreement.
    “Provide for me and protect me and quit your whining. This is the way we are naturally and it is not going to change.”

    And guess what? A man can readjust himself accordingly, and with great effort, change his ability to provide and protect.

    If a woman is not a virgin and a man doesn’t want to accept her; if he doesn’t want to deal with the idea of past lovers; we just spent a whole comment thread talking about that.

    And guess what? A woman CAN NOT readjust herself accordingly. She can NOT de-slut herself and provide you with a virgin bride. She can NOT erase opening her legs to whomever she did. So WE HAVE TO TAkE YOU AS IS IF WE WANT YOU AT ALL.

    So what so many MEN have wanted to SCREAM for SO LONG is, YOU ALL quit YOUR whining.

    You have options for men to change. Men do not have the converse, and that’s when all the “It’s under the blood! I wasn’t a Christian!” chirping comes in.

    The least you can do for a man that is sacrificing for you and has legally put himself in the position he has is bang him like a porn star. But as usual, the female ego and COMPLETE lack of HUMILITY kicks in.
    You all act like you’re DOING HIM a FAVOR. Like it’s some kind of BIG REVELATION or BADGE OF HONOR that you “keep your husbands well sexed.”

    QUIT. YOUR.WHINING.

  189. Carlotta

    SD,
    Thank you. That is it but you said it way better then I could.

    I kind of feel like a fat chick who lost 30 pounds and hires a trainer to lose the last ten at the gym and has to leave the gym because the fat guy cleaning the bathroom keeps screaming at me how fat I am.

    Elspeth I agree. That is the point. SD’s entire comment is correct.

  190. redpillsetmefree

    SD,
    Thank you. That is it but you said it way better then I could.

    I kind of feel like a fat chick who lost 30 pounds and hires a trainer to lose the last ten at the gym and has to leave the gym because the fat guy cleaning the bathroom keeps screaming at me how fat I am.

    Elspeth I agree. That is the point. SD’s entire comment is correct.

    See? Complete solipsism.
    Woman to other woman: “GIVE ME CREDIT! GIVE ME CREDIT! GIVE ME CREDIT! YOU GO GURL!!”
    Woman to men: “QUIT YOUR WHINING! YOU CAN’T COMMENT ON WHAT YOU FEEL!”

  191. redpillsetmefree

    When we are analyzing what is hardwired within a man, for someone to appeal to the women with a tone that this is something that should be rejected or viewed as a bug not a feature, it should be called out. If this is hardwired, it necessarily means it can not be changed within men, that he’d have to conscientiously deny his nature in order for it to not hold true.

    What’s going to be fun now is watching Carlotta hamster her way through; after saying “SD’s entire comment is correct” she will now continue to call me names for using SDs words verbatim but in support of men.

  192. Ellie

    Nah, what you need rpsmf is a compelling redemption narrative to overcome female imperative. Something like “God is the one who ultimately provides everything you need and if you expect more, talk to Him”. Then we could discuss this for a whole post. Men need better marketing.

    Carlotta, you are right, I was confused about who you were addressing.

  193. earl

    “I see now. Redpill is unhinged.”

    Translation: I’m going to attack his ego so that I win the arguement.

    AWALT.

    Hon…argue his points…not who he is as a person. That’s called debate. Something women do woefully at.

    If your ilk says something like I have a small dick or live in my mom’s basement…I’ll laugh at your debate style and know that I just won.

  194. redpillsetmefree

    Nah, what you need rpsmf is a compelling redemption narrative to overcome female imperative. Something like “God is the one who ultimately provides everything you need and if you expect more, talk to Him”. Then we could discuss this for a whole post. Men need better marketing.

    Hmmmm. Now that’s interesting.

  195. Ellie

    I wonder if one of the problems is that narratives have recently been expanded to preach ideas like reclaimed virginity. Is this narrative totally new? Did it used to be seen as something that could be restored? I don’t think it did. People used to be much more binary, and didn’t allow things to cross category. It is only because reclaimed virgins have reached critical mass and are seeking husbands among new men that it is being used at all. No critical mass, no “second virginity”.

  196. Sarah's Daughter

    Redpill,
    I agree with your response. You can absolutely change my words with chastity/fidelity for men and you’re right, those can not be improved on by women. They will either posses them or they won’t. I also don’t take issue at all with men selecting for them – I have a son who will be doing just that. I have two daughters who are told to make sure they have those qualities to offer to the man who will marry them.

    In addition to a conversation about what men are looking for out of a wife, there is a conversation to be had of discovering what is a bug or a feature within women. Not taking away from the importance of women understanding that men select for chastity/fidelity (and letting them know they should not whine about it), there is also a reality that women seek provision/protection – that men should not whine/complain about.

  197. Sarah's Daughter

    That is why comments like this:
    Show of hands, guys: How many of you are looking for a woman who wants you for nothing more than to serve as a security blanket with muscles and a wallet?

    Anybody? Back of the room?

    are unhelpful in either conversation. For some of us married ladies who would like to help young single women navigate the SMP/MMP these comments come off as whining. Just as young men are selecting for chastity/fidelity, we know young women are selecting for these things (among others that we actually try to tell them not to select for ie. the alpha bad boy) There’s nothing wrong with them selecting for these things. None of us that I know of, here, married a man with money. What we saw in them was a potential. What we accepted for ourselves was what our part was in helping them meet (helpmeet) that potential.

  198. Sarah's Daughter

    I know that you have absolutely no empathy for men;

    I am a work in progress. It is not something innate within me so it must be developed.

    your only empathy is for other women.

    No, I lack that as well. Because I know Carlotta, I knew what she was saying. I know her live voice, her tone, back story, etc.

  199. Ellie

    Or you could counter fem-centric narratives as gnosticism infiltrating the church… because that is what denying material reality really is.

  200. redpillsetmefree

    In addition to a conversation about what men are looking for out of a wife,
    there is a conversation to be had of discovering what is a bug or a feature within women.
    Not taking away from the importance of women understanding that men select for chastity/fidelity (and letting them know they should not whine about it),
    there is also a reality that women seek provision/protection –
    that men should not whine/complain about.

    Agreed.

    Or you could counter fem-centric narratives as gnosticism infiltrating the church… because that is what denying material reality really is.

    I honestly don’t think that gnosticism ever really left the church, in some form or another.

    I wonder if one of the problems is that narratives have recently been expanded to preach ideas like reclaimed virginity.

    Can’t speak for everyone, but from my point of view, the irritation comes from the relentless and seemingly endless demands of Feminism, and the lack of satisfaction even after every single demand has been acquiesced to. Someone coined this phrase for Feminists:
    The Sisterhood of Perpetual Complaints.

  201. ballista74

    I wonder if one of the problems is that narratives have recently been expanded to preach ideas like reclaimed virginity. Is this narrative totally new?

    Not new at all, it’s just the application of garden variety feminism. All women are holy and blameless in God’s sight, so all the things that women do are right. So anything that they do that is perceived as “negative” by men is dismissed as “out of hand” or “off the deep end”. When women take the idea of what is “wrong” to heart, or their consciousnesses kick in and bother them, the Rationalization Hamster kicks in to rationalize it, and by the tenets of feminism, all men are to immediately and totally accept the rationalization as if it is Godly teaching.

    In this case of a woman’s whoredoms, the concept of the “born-again virgin” was introduced in order to justify it in the minds of the women and make her an equivalent to the women who actually have been following God in respect to sexuality. After all, the Christian woman slut and the Christian woman virgin have both been cleansed by the blood and the slut has been completely absolved of her sins and washed white as snow. Therefore, she is just as virgin as the other woman and therefore men are required to treat the slut as if she has never had sex and think of her in that way.

  202. ballista74

    there is also a reality that women seek provision/protection – that men should not whine/complain about.

    Correction: Women feel entitled by birthright to the provision and protection of men, and specifically a husband. Hence all the whining about “where have all the good men gone”. Therefore, they seek out a level of provision and protection from men commensurate with their perceived level of what they are entitled to out of men and then requires him in obligation to provide all that he has to her. In this sense a “suitable provider” is a man who matches the woman’s expectations, no matter how minor or how grand they are.

    Not to be mistaken, this is man-hating feminism in its finest expression (full advent in the 19th century). The only changes Marxism has brought to this paradigm is that the government has stepped in to provide provision and protection for women, either directly or through forced extraction of provision from any man it can find and link tot he woman (usually the ex-husband, but cases of others are starting to crop up more). Entitled provision makes no difference, be it from a husband, alimony/child support, or welfare. If a welfare queen is bad, if a woman committing divorce rape is bad, then parasitic entitlement provision through one man called a husband is bad as well. There can be no contradiction between the three since men have been put under an entitlement obligation for all three. Either all are good or all are bad.

    It may be a long and arduous search if for some reason I did want to be married, but I have no need for an entitlement queen on my back anyway who believes her disgusting arrogance is something that is an “innate feature”.

  203. ballista74

    And while we’re at rebuking feminism, I should point out that a woman’s chastity and a man’s provision is a false equivalence. A woman (and a man too) are to be chaste before marriage by God’s clear command which appears multiple times in Scripture. This is a non-negotiable and not something a woman “has to offer” a potential husband. If she does not do this, she has acted outside of the will of God. Period. It is also natural in God’s sight that a Godly man would select for godliness in a woman.

    Scripturally, a husbands’ provision and protection (as does God’s) only comes through grace (and not obligation), and as head of the family, he may choose to withdraw both at any time. He is not unconditionally required by the command of God to provide his wife anything, especially in a parasitic manner.

    I know the usual feminist suspects will chime in with the usual verses the feminists have adopted, but those apply equally to both men and women – the woman that does not work should not eat, and the woman that does not provide for her family (and cleaning and child care is not provision) is worse than an infidel. I know feminism has warped this considerably, especially since it seems people can not see that the Proverbs 31 woman provided for her family as much as her husband did.

  204. freebird

    Sd’s quote
    “There is nothing abusive about vetting a man for his provision/protection abilities. Does it fall w/in the feminine imperative? Perhaps. But anyone will be hardpressed to prove it is not innate, instinctual, hardwired, not going away, not going to change etc. If you are a man who wants a woman to “love you for who you are” without evaluating your ability to protect her or provide for her and your children, your search will be long and arduous.”

    There is nothing abusive about vetting the legal system for equitable standing,and if a woman is interested in commitment from a man she will have along and arduous journey in finding a legal system that ensures an man will commit.
    As in, A journey to Mexico or the Philippines,the inhabitants of which the US gov is importing at record numbers to make up for the lack of reproduction from US citizen white women due to their misuse of an abusive system.

    It really does not matter how much a man can provide if the risk is such he will refuse to provide it.

    It doesn’t what her intentions are *at the moment* when upon a whim (and women have hypergamous whims often) she can rape him in court unilaterally.

    So your vetting is pre-empted by his vetting.

    That is why it’s called the gender war,and women started it,men are just showing up.

    As has been pointed out,the system that women exploit to exploit men also pay women handsomely.

    You’ve just lost the Moral Dominance.

    The thing about folk who wield the MD hammer,they are fixin to hammer ya anyway they can,anyhow,and they have the means,motive,and opportunity to do so.

    So yeah,quit whining about the backlash,it is fully justified.

    We find the arrangement unsatisfactory and contractual fraud.

    Which women brag about,the ‘starter marriage.’

    Get set up with a house, CS,,alimony,extend he bad boy carousel for another go-round,then trade up for the bigger better deal,rinse and wash.

    Dalrock had a great article “mining for men,” that comes to mind,if you need further explanation.

    It’s not about men irrationally wanting love regardless of support capability,it is rational risk over reward computations,something your ‘feelings’ say women deserve each and every cent they can extort from anyone,then get MORE from the next one,serial hitters,and Entitled to it as well,because vagina makes children.

    Denied sperm and wallet,they have no standing,except for artificial insemination from sperm donors,and guess what?
    It’s a booming industry,paid for with tax money,even women’s tax money.
    lolz

    Kiss me quick sweetie!

  205. Sarah's Daughter

    There is nothing abusive about vetting the legal system for equitable standing,and if a woman is interested in commitment from a man she will have along and arduous journey in finding a legal system that ensures an man will commit.

    Absolutely.

    And conversations about both can/should be had. Remember, there are new readers here all the time who are just coming to understand the lies they’ve been fed by feminism and the truth of their nature.

    They are learning about such things as hypergamy. Women do not know this is what they do, nor do they know that they need to be aware of it and battle against it within themselves. I hadn’t heard the term or connected it with coveting until four years ago when I started reading blogs like this.

    They are learning about solipsism. Some are starting to observe the men in their life through a different lens that isn’t colored by their own reality. It’s eye opening, it’s overwhelming, it’s humbling.

    They are learning that women are not actually the more empathetic sex. That women do not possess honor innately. They are just learning what their own attraction triggers are. Some are still denying it and throwing out NAWALT by insisting they didn’t select for protection/provision/socio sexual dominance. They don’t know why the quiet/shy/Christian male friend of theirs is not attractive to them. They just figure he’s not her type.

    Those who are on the road to processing all of this, who are sincere in their quest for Truth, need somewhere to hear a Titus 2 woman’s wisdom. Carlotta and I are in agreement that there are comments made that may as well be coming from the enemy himself because they do such a good job of distracting from the wisdom these women could glean.

    “….to spite their face”

  206. theshadowedknight

    Ahhh, and there it is. The last resort of a woman when all other attempts have failed.

    Carlotta and I are in agreement that there are comments made that may as well be coming from the enemy himself…

    You disagree with me and I believe in the Lord. That means you serve the Adversary. You are an evil Satanist, nobody listen to him.

    …distracting from the wisdom these women could glean.

    Yes, after the past century or so, the wisdom of women is beyond question and discussion. What could possibly make the men distrustful? Oh, right, Satanism.

    The Shadowed Knight

  207. Sarah's Daughter

    the woman that does not work should not eat, and the woman that does not provide for her family (and cleaning and child care is not provision) is worse than an infidel. I know feminism has warped this considerably, especially since it seems people can not see that the Proverbs 31 woman provided for her family as much as her husband did.

    Each husband will decide what work his wife will do and how much she is needed to provide (monetarily) for their family. Your opinion is one of many.

    It may be a long and arduous search if for some reason I did want to be married

    And on that we agree.

  208. Sarah's Daughter

    What could possibly make the men distrustful?

    You misunderstand, it is not distrustful. I very much agree with what many of these comments are saying and there is a place for them. Many times these comments are found in the wrong place. And are a distraction. The enemy often uses good to distract us from great. Think about it TSK. You understand the nature of women. If a woman is getting close to seeing the lie that feminism is and is starting to slowly grasp truth but isn’t quite there, what do you believe her reaction will be to a comment she views highly incendiary?

    She will focus on that comment alone, spin her hamster into a tizzy and be completely distracted from the truth that lie in wait for her.

    This isn’t about disagreeing with what these men are saying per se.

  209. RichardP

    @Farm Boy: “Can a woman with a kid be a born again virgin?”

    Depends on whether the kid is a goat.

  210. Carlotta

    Hon…argue his points…not who he is as a person. That’s called debate. Something women do woefully at.

    So you missed the original comment back to him?

    His point is moot. We are beyond it.

  211. Carlotta

    The point was never that I disagree with where we are in the collapse nor our way out. I dont even disagree with my own part in it.

    I disagree with the motives behind certain comments.

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  214. empathologism

    I know the usual feminist suspects will chime in with the usual verses the feminists have adopted, but those apply equally to both men and women – the woman that does not work should not eat, and the woman that does not provide for her family (and cleaning and child care is not provision) is worse than an infidel. I know feminism has warped this considerably, especially since it seems people can not see that the Proverbs 31 woman provided for her family as much as her husband did.

    I’m not on board with this comment ballista. But this thread seems to have some dead days so I put a comment on your site

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