Stuff feminists says: Marriage for me but not for thee.

I wish someone would have told me that, just because I’m a girl, I don’t have to get married.  ~Marlo Thomas, feminist and founder of Free to Be You and Me

Feminists speak against marriage as an out-dated, patriarchal, oppressive institution.  They have been doing this for about forty years or so now.  Several months ago, feminist Kate Harding wrote:

Heterosexual marriage is a tremendously antifeminist institution. It’s all tangled up with times when women were considered their husband’s property, with religions in which they still are, with the exclusion and marginalization of queer people, with the expectation of childbearing, etc., etc.

Yet many feminist leaders end up married (or occassionally in quasi-marriage partnerships).  Here is Ms. Harding engaging in that “tremendously antifeminist institution” herself, with a man no less:

And she isn’t the only one.  Nearly all feminist leaders are married or partnered.  Feminist activist and author Jessica Valenti writes, in her article My big feminist wedding:

As I grew up and began identifying myself as a feminist, there were plenty of issues that continued to make me question marriage: the father “giving” the bride away, women taking their husband’s last name, the white dress, the vows promising to “obey” the groom. And that only covers the wedding. Once you get married, women are still implicitly expected to do the majority of the housework and take care of any future children. I remember reading one study that said that even couples who had been living together for years in equitable bliss ended up with a more “traditional” division of household labour if they got married – as though signing that piece of paper somehow skewed their sense of fair play.

Feminsiting-founder Jessica Valenti with her husband, Andrew Golis
Image source

Physical attractiveness and a pleasant attitude are not necessary for a feminist to snag a man, as Lindy West proves:

Feminist Lindy West with her boyfriend Ahamefule Oluo
Image source

Amanda Marcotte is partnered with DJ Marc Faletti:

       Marc Faletti

Tracy Clark-Flory from Salon yammers on about how she opposed marriage and all the wedding trappings…that is until it was her turn:

One of the first things I told my fiancé after we got engaged was, “I am not wearing a fucking white dress.”

Fast-forward to now, mere days before the wedding, and I am wearing a fucking white dress. That isn’t all. I spent hundreds of dollars on makeup and makeovers. I purchased multiple pairs of sparkly high-heeled shoes that left me limping after trying them on. I crash-dieted. I bought a pair of Spanx, a modern girdle (a contradiction in terms if there ever was one). One evening I earnestly told my fiancé, “Maybe I should wear fake eyelashes for the wedding.” Without missing a beat, he replied, “Baby … remember feminism?”

I barely could.

Heck, even the grandmother of sex-positive feminism herself, Gloria Steinem, who infamously quipped A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle!, was eventually able to reel in a husband, though he died within several years of their marriage:

Oh, and Marlo Thomas, who wishes someone had told her she never had to get married? Yep, she’s married, too, to Phil Donahue.

Isn’t that nice?  Do as I say, girls, not as I do.

Why is this?  It is because the leaders of feminism are often well-educated, higher IQ and white:

Feminists’ anti-marriage rhetoric and pro-slut cheerleading filter down to the less-educated, lower IQ, and non-white women who would most benefit from marriage.  Marriage confers upon women real economic benefit.  It isn’t oppressive at all; rather, marriage frees women from instability and poverty.

But who cares what is good for women?  Well, their children do:

Behold what feminism hath wrought for the other half of the bell curve who have been liberated from the shackles of marriage.  We can find them on Cafe Mom on the Single Moms threads.  In their own words:

on Jun. 5, 2013 at 1:37 PM

where can I  go to get financial help with my bills that I have?? Im so having a hard time.

on Jun. 5, 2013 at 1:37 PM

I would like to thank everyone for letting me join this site im a single mother and I work but right now we are in a shelter and im desperete to get out please help

However, it isn’t just poverty; even when controlling for income, children from single-mother households fair significantly worse on measures of well-being than their peers from two-parent households.

In a recent article at The Atlantic, Marriage Makes Our Children Richer—Here’s Why, W. Bradford Wilcox, the director of the National Marriage Project at the University of Virginia, gives some interesting statistics:

Among less-educated families, the children of married parents earn about $4,000 more than their peers from non-intact families.

…men and women who hail from intact families are about 40 percent less likely to father or bear a child outside of wedlock. This is important because nonmarital childbearing reduces your odds of successfully getting and staying married down the road, maximizing your income, and of providing a stable home to your children.

…adults “exposed to unilateral divorce regulations as children are less well educated, have lower family incomes, marry earlier but separate more often, and have higher odds of suicide.” Indiana psychologist Brian D’Onofrio, relying on a study of twins, also found that young adults from divorced homes did worse than their cousins from intact homes (the cousins had parents who were twins) when it came to substance abuse and behavioral problems.

His conclusion?

The intact, two-parent family seems to be particularly important for children hailing from less privileged homes and a powerful force for economic mobility when it’s the family norm at the community level.

So, the people who would most benefit from marriage’s stabilizing and enriching influence are now the people least likely to get and stay married.

An ideological movement started by high-IQ, well-educated white women, which is still primarily led by such women, has created a situation in which high-IQ, well-educated white feminists get married while their poorer, less-educated, lower-IQ, non-white sisters who actually really need marriage for their and their children’s well-being, no longer marry.

Feminists: always making life worse for women and children.

219 thoughts on “Stuff feminists says: Marriage for me but not for thee.

  1. Guest

    Hypocritical. It’s kind of like a keeper of the home who spends hours blogging and works outside the home. Yet doesn’t want other women to have careers (only her).

  2. sunshinemary Post author

    By the way, if you are ever considering getting together with a single mom, you might want to spend some time reading at Cafe Mom on the Single Moms board. It is quite eye-opening. Probably 80% of the posts are women giving each other advice on how to squeeze more money out of their children’s fathers while simultaneously reducing his access to his children. The other 20% are about dating and wondering why men only seem to want single mothers for sex and not relationships.

    I’m sure not all single mothers are like that, but boy oh boy is that a huge red flag.

  3. earl

    “Feminism is ultimately an elitist institution, and like all such instruments of evil, its adherents seldom actually practice what they preach.”

    Modern day Pharisees?

  4. Novaseeker

    The problem is that it does work, for the most part, for such women. That is, the feminist life script — focus on education, career building until late 20s, early 30s, have many relationships during this period where the emphasis is fun and “experiences”, then settle down and marry sometime between 28 and 35 (give or take a year or three) – works for these women. They do almost all marry, eventually, and generally fairly well, and have 1-2 (sometimes even 3) kids who also do fairly well. So as far as they are concerned, the script works, because they see it working all around them.

    It doesn’t work for the lower echelons, no. But, again, the answer they have is that the lower echelons need more education, so that they can be like the upper echelons and follow the life script. They will never admit that the life script just doesn’t work for people outside the top tier, but instead flip it around and say that everyone should be more like the top tier.

    What went missing was the concept of noblesse oblige. That is, the idea that the elites of a society would visibly behave a certain way in order to display, model and reinforce certain patterns of behavior and morality, even if, in private, they did not abide by these strictures themselves. Of course, in the early 21st century, that’s the cardinal sin of hypocrisy – doing one thing privately while saying another publicly. Today, the highest moral value is authenticity, so the idea of noblesse oblige has fallen by the wayside. Instead, our elite class models behaviors that work for that specific setting well enough, but which do not work at all for the rest of the demographic. And as for the rest of the demographic? They can either become elites, or eat cake.

  5. sunshinemary Post author

    I thought feminists turned into Elder Sluts with only cats for company? Now I’m confused.

    Perhaps trying reading my essay a little slower next time, then.

    Once again for the feminist readers on the short bus: feminist leaders usually can marry. They spout ideological rhetoric that they themselves do not live by. They are able to do this because they have a measure of power, fame, and influence. But very few women are leaders of the feminist movement. The rest of those women just sort of bumble along with feminist ideology as their guiding light. Those women, if they are well-educated and white, increasingly tend to end up as childless careerists crying about not being able to find a good man. If they are less-educated and lower-IQ, they end up as single mothers living in poverty, instability, and dysfunction.

  6. earl

    And even though those feminist leaders get married…I wouldn’t say those are high status males.

    The men who have been bestowed the preferrable greek letters know better than to commit to that.

  7. Scott

    “One of the first things I told my fiancé after we got engaged was, “I am not wearing a fucking white dress.””

    My God, who could resist this doll?

  8. sunshinemary Post author

    Novaseeker:

    The problem is that it does work, for the most part, for such women. That is, the feminist life script — focus on education, career building until late 20s, early 30s, have many relationships during this period where the emphasis is fun and “experiences”, then settle down and marry sometime between 28 and 35 (give or take a year or three) – works for these women. They do almost all marry, eventually, and generally fairly well, and have 1-2 (sometimes even 3) kids who also do fairly well. So as far as they are concerned, the script works, because they see it working all around them.

    This has been the case, but there seems to be some indication that this is changing. From
    White Women’s Marriage Rates Dropping Much Faster Than Men’s:

    From 2000 to 2007, the rate of never-married white women that married in the next 5 years fell much faster than that of never-married white men. The most striking example is found in comparing the 30-34 y/o male and female cohorts. In 2000, the female rate was 34.1% that would marry in the next five years and the male rate was 28.7%. By 2007, the female rate had plummeted by more than 1/2 to 16.8% while the male rate had only fallen to 24.6%. What was a 5.4% female “edge” in 2000 became a 7.8% “deficit” by 2007, or a 13.2% relative drop in the female minus male rates.

    The feminist life-script may not be achievable if that trend continues.

  9. FuzzieWuzzie

    To echo bodycrimes, I’m confused too. The caution to “watch what they do and not pay attention to what they say” seems to hold here.
    As for the caution about single moms, the glimpses that Farm Boy has shared about his experience only confirm. He may never recover and that is a loss to our community.

  10. The Real Peterman

    “My God, who could resist this doll?”

    Hey, with her you get the best of both worlds! You get to hear whining and moaning about how restrictive traditional gender roles for weddings are, but in the end you still get to shell out thousands of dollars to pay for those roles!

    Did I say “best”? I meant “worst.”

  11. bike bubba

    I am absolutely LOVING the fact that, by wearing Sphanx after a crash diet, makeovers, and heels for her wedding, Tracy Flory is more or less exceeding the Victorians in terms of self-abuse for beauty’s sake. Again, the feminist foremothers are spinning in their graves if God allows them to know what is going on their bloomers in a bunch and everything.

    Or, put in personal terms, that means that I, patriarch of my family and duly appointed oppressor of Mrs. Bubba, am a better feminist than these ladies because I’m at least decent enough not to put Mrs. Bubba in stiletto heels and a corset. No whalebone needed in the Bubba household!

    ….time to tell the missus to make me a sammich…..it’s FEMINISM, darnit!

  12. alcestiseshtemoa

    Note: Like I mentioned recently at Open Conversations, since I’m moving out of a country and got a new passport, there’s still a lot of things to pack (I’m only going to be nearly finished by the end of the year). Anyways I’m going to comment on this article.

    Three things:

    – Feminism is… elitist, modern and came out of Northern Europeans (Nordic countries such as Sweden are feminist dystopias) or Anglo-Saxon countries such as USA and UK to a higher extent, and while it exists in groups such as Eastern Europeans and Southern Europeans, it’s less intense and influential in the latter.

    – “Do as I say, not as I do” is an implicit status differential mantra. It’s like a game for those who are foolish enough to listen to this advice and actually implement it. It can be long-term damage and ruin one’s life, reputation, social circle and other stuff.

    – “Hispanic” is a horrible ethnic category. It lumps everybody together, when there are certain major distinctions. When I think Hispanic, I think originating from Hispania, which means Spain. As in, as actual Spanish person. If they’re mixed race, there’s several categories detailing ancestry depending on skin color and physical appearance such as cholo, mestizo, castizo, etc.

  13. alcestiseshtemoa

    Feminism works the best for white liberal women, SWPL women and the like (with fertility ranging from childless to replacement level). It damages most of their white male cohort on some level, but keeps the top white men to themselves, and does great damage to other men as a whole from other groups, primarily those with dark skin (such as blacks and mestizos). It also damages lower white females, and other women from other groups. It’s like eugenics, but they cloak it under something else. If anything, it’s an eugenics dream come true.

  14. alcestiseshtemoa

    I think that’s why both classical and modern liberals are always shouting about hypocrisy. It’s projection on their part. They are big hypocrites themselves.

  15. FuzzieWuzzie

    The Real Peterman, while he usually confines himself to two lines, he has offered gimpses into his past. I think he married a single mom and got frivorced. Had I gone through what he did, it would be hard to maintain faith.

    As for all these high level feminists getting married, could this be an example of how biological imperatives trump ideological imperatives?

  16. Novaseeker

    The feminist life-script may not be achievable if that trend continues.

    It’s an interesting trend, certainly. As I’ve speculated in the past, there are also going to be pressures mounting as the very lopsidedly female graduating classes in universities continues, and that finds its way into the mating cohort of around 30. Not quite there yet, in its full brunt, but coming soon. That will be a brutal numbers game for many educated women, I think, when the full force of the hurricane hits. But … hasn’t happened yet. So there isn’t any widespread sense that anything is wrong – and so there really isn’t that much whining about it other than from women who waited too long, even under the feminist script (like Bolick, Gottlieb and so on). The script isn’t generally to wait until you’re 40 to think about marrying, but to put it off until between 28 and 35ish.

  17. FuzzieWuzzie

    Alcest, I’ll second what you have said about “eugenics”. Instead of brute force at the point of a gun, it’s social pressure.

  18. Frank

    This just goes to show the men are the problem, not the women. We need to start throwing blanket parties for any man who has it in his head to get into a serious relationship/marriage with these hellspawns. (If you’ve seen Full Metal Jacket you’ll know what I mean)

    By the way, if you are ever considering getting together with a single mom, you might want to spend some time reading at Cafe Mom on the Single Moms board

    Do you have a direct link to a thread showing this, or is this basically a summation of the topics they discuss in general?

  19. Rollo Tomassi

    @SSM, oh I wouldn’t be so hard on Bodycrimes, she clearly ghosts the blog because she’s learning something. I think there’s hope for her yet. She wants to believe.

    Once she unlearns her preoccupation with the feminine imperative and the right dominant Alpha comes along to teach her the discipline she really wants, she might surprise you.

    [ssm: Ha, can I send her your way for her education then? :) I am growing weary of my feminist fangirls.]

  20. Martel

    “An ideological movement started by high-IQ, well-educated white women, which is still primarily led by such women, has created a situation in which high-IQ, well-educated white feminists get married while their poorer, less-educated, lower-IQ, non-white sisters who actually really need marriage for their and their children’s well-being, no longer marry.”

    This applies to the entire sexual revolution. Just like the son of a rich kid has more margin for error financially, upper-middle class women have more margin for error sexually. What seemed like useless sexual restrictions to rich women were the very foundation for upward mobility for the poor.

  21. deti

    I’m from about the same age and time as Nova but not the same geographical areas.

    Up until maybe, oh, 10 or so years ago, in my experience, a girl could follow, and did follow, the “life script” of education, fun, travel, relationships and casual sex, if she got a college education. If she was educated she was automatically in that “upper echelon” who could start thinking about marriage in her late 20s. She had that luxury because she was working and supporting herself.

    It’s hard for me to tell but it looks like that’s changing slightly. It isn’t enough for a woman to have a college education and a job in a school or cubicle farm somewhere. Now she has to have some sort of pedigree. She comes from money. She’s accomplished in her job and earns commensurately with that. She comes from a well known or wealthy family. She has some local or regional notoriety. She is really good looking and has kept her looks and shape.

    This is just my observations. It’s going to get tougher for Ellen Elementary School Teacher, Connie Claims Representative and Bonnie Bank Teller, unless they fit into one of the above.

  22. lovelyleblanc7

    “Heterosexual marriage is a tremendously antifeminist institution. It’s all tangled up with times when women were considered their husband’s property, with religions in which they still are,”
    What’s wrong with that? Well then, sign me up for an anti-feminist wedding :D
    Oh, yeah, with this included: “the father “giving” the bride away, women taking their husband’s last name, the white dress, the vows promising to “obey” the groom.”
    All of that! :)
    ” Once you get married, women are still implicitly expected to do the majority of the housework and take care of any future children”
    And that is how it should be.

    You know, now I have to wonder if Christian Bale is a feminist?

    Oops. Never mind. Already answered.

    http://blogs.indiewire.com/womenandhollywood/feminist-dad-of-the-day-christian-bale

  23. deti

    Note Tracy Clark Flory’s “blushing bride” persona as she prepares for her nuptials. The makeup, the crash dieting, the preoccupation with her physical appearance; the reversion to traditional notions of fidelity and femininity.

    Why, she sounded almost… feminine. LIke a woman. Possibly a woman in love.

    Goes to show that even the most ballbusting feminist wants Her Special Day. To be a graceful, ladylike, center of attention. The epitome of womanhood. White dress and all.

    Remains to be see whether Mr. TCF can give her the “discipline” she so desperately wants.

  24. sunshinemary Post author

    Cafe Mom does seem to have some anecdotal evidence of what I’ve heard tell of around the sphere: that some men will use dating sites to hook up with single mothers because they are easy. Here’s one such comment; I’ve redacted some of it because she goes into way too much detail about some of the sexting she’s done:

    Okay so I recently became newly single and have a 5 y/o daughter. I have been on dating sites to meet someone. I get a lot of responses and only respond to a couple.I am 30 yrs. old, slender but boobs and a slight butt (lol), attractive.

    So I went to a guy’s house for a date. He was rubbing my neck and then was placing his hands around my waist and kind of rubbing my stomach. He was sad to see me leave and he did kiss me before I left and I him. […]

    anyways he kept saying things like “wow you’re so cute” etc. and “you’re in great shape” when he felt my waist/stomach (with clothes on) […]

    Next fri we were gonna meet again, and at first I suggested the movies out, and he said okay, but then later said if I could just come there and cuddle with him. I said “we can’t cuddle in public?” and he said “yeah but not that intimately.”[…]

    anyways this will happen a lot with guys (and they’re all from online site). They act interested in me, they act nice, then they suddenly get really horny and explicit on me.

    Why is this? I don’t dress slutty or anything, I look like a “good girl” actually, I don’t come onto them, i smile and act kinda innocent, so why does it always have to go sexual right away? And does it mean he just wants me for sex?

  25. lovelyleblanc7

    What women don’t understand is that feminism was for privileged white women. It wasn’t that they were fighting to work…no! Women have been working all the time. No early feminist (or even a feminist today) would sign up to be a janitor or a maid, but they want to be the CEO, the president, with no hard work or effort put into it. They don’t want to start at the bottom. They want things handed to them.
    That is why they always complain about the low percentage of women in the Senate & House, but what do they want people to do? Just include women because their women?
    Feminism= Bratty Gender Entitlement
    Feminists want the same rights as men with no obligations.
    Hence why they want to be a slut yet claim rape–no obligation.
    Expect random men to save them when they put themselves in stupid situations–no obligation.
    Don’t want men to question their number of previous sexual partners–no obligation
    Daddy Government–no obligation
    Divorce cash & prizes–no obligation
    …the list can go on and on…
    Yep, but all they want is independence. Feminists sure are independent adults aren’t they.

  26. sunshinemary Post author

    @ deti

    Note Tracy Clark Flory’s “blushing bride” persona as she prepares for her nuptials. The makeup, the crash dieting, the preoccupation with her physical appearance; the reversion to traditional notions of fidelity and femininity.

    Mr. Tracy Clark-Flory had better not get used to it. Here is a bit more from her article:

    By the end of college, I was convinced that makeup, leg shaving and high heels were tools of the patriarchy. I would make such proclamations with an ironic self-mocking grin (but actually, no, seriously, it is the patriarchy). And yet, I participated anyway. It was one thing to think these things, it was another to live them. Really, what it came down to was that I wanted male attention more than I wanted to live by my intellectual principles.

    So, I resentfully applied makeup and hobbled around in heels that sent me to a podiatrist — until I found my person [ssm: Meaning her fiance]. Then it was comfortable shoes and an incredibly lazy leg-shaving routine.

    LOL, get the commitment and out come the sweatpants, sneakers, and hairy legs.

  27. Shawn

    @ Scott
    “One of the first things I told my fiancé after we got engaged was, “I am not wearing a fucking white dress.””
    My God, who could resist this doll?”

    Atleast she’s been honest since wearing white is supposed to represent virginity.

  28. sunshinemary Post author

    @ lovely

    What women don’t understand is that feminism was for privileged white women. It wasn’t that they were fighting to work…no! Women have been working all the time.

    Exactly. Poor women who didn’t live on farms always worked outside their homes. Even the ones who did live on farms would take in washing or sewing for extra income; Laura Ingalls Wilder worked as a school teacher and then after her marriage, as a seamstress.

  29. Cautiously Pessimistic

    I wonder how much of the feminist do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do is motivated by the desire to sabotage the competition? If you can convince large numbers of women to voluntarily either remove themselves from or cripple themselves in the MMV, more men to choose from for the ones that stayed. Or, more sinister, the weaker the country becomes as family is further eroded as a foundation.

    I guess the question can’t really be answered, since I wouldn’t expect honest answers from those that are deceptive. But it would be interesting to know how many feminists know exactly what they’re doing in their evangelism vs. how many just mindlessly parrot until they realize it’s not taking them where they want to go.

  30. Frank

    Cafe Mom does seem to have some anecdotal evidence of what I’ve heard tell of around the sphere: that some men will use dating sites to hook up with single mothers because they are easy.

    I read one comment where the single mom said she gave up on dating sites and is waiting on God to send a nice man to her and her two boys. Meanwhile I’m wondering how awful a sinner a man must be to draw that kind of punishment from God.

  31. Martel

    @ lovely: Feminists didn’t want to work, they wanted that mythical “fulfilling career” that the patriarchy kept them from enjoying.

    And then they find out that most careers aren’t all that fulfilling, but in the course of expanding their freedom, they made it essential for lots of families to have to have both partners working to make ends meet.

    Pre-feminism, it was possible for a janitor to support a family. No chance in hell of that today.

  32. Rollo Tomassi

    Single Mommies:

    http://therationalmale.com/2012/07/23/case-study-wanted-new-daddy/

    New Daddies and Independent Women®

    It’s essential to the single-mother rationale that they convince themselves they aren’t shopping for a “new daddy”. The fem-centrism of today’s social structure already has a long and well established framework ready to enable the most predictable of hamster spins. She’s an “Independent Woman®”, she “makes her own damn money” and ‘walks like da boss, talks like da boss,…” etc. The Independent Woman® brand is one of the most versatile social conventions because it covers so many situations. Blanket rationales like epithets of ‘Misogynist’ or ‘Homophobe’ pale in comparison to the usefulness of the Independent Woman®.

    The Independent Woman® is unassailable and any contrary deviation from it leads back to the circular argument of patriarchal men’s selfish oppressions – feminism’s favorite trope. She “don’t need a man”, but she needs a Man. The real tragedy is the desperation apparent in the false pride. The truth is she needs a Man, her children need a Man, in spite of the pretentiousness fem-centrism has conditioned into her. But her decisions have left that Daddy position open to the lowest bidder.

  33. deti

    The women I’m talking about; women of pedigree, wealth, accomplishment and education — many of them will “marry down” to men who earn less than they. They’ll likely find men to marry; but those men will be considerably beneath them in most metrics, and especially where it counts — in earnings and achievement. This is not the kind of dynamic that produces lasting marriages. In fact it’s a recipe for unhaaaaappy marriages. Even if there is a measure of sexual attraction at the beginning (which I kind of doubt having had a looksee at the men and women involved), there isn’t enough to sustain it long term.

    Look at most of the women photographed and summarized in the OP. The women married men of the same SMV or below. The female halves of each equation have some notoriety, fame and wealth. Marcotte and Valenti are luminaries in the feminist constellation; Harding and West less so. Clark Flory is an up and comer. Their men are really not much to speak of — they’re not famous, they don’t have any achievements to speak of, and their women certainly outearn them.

    Most women in their positiion aren’t going to marry at all; and if they do, they won’t marry or partner even as well as these feministas did.

  34. redpillsetmefree

    1) The first picture of Harding made me jump out of my seat.

    2) Notice the TYPE of man they have. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM has an expression that says, “Whip me more, I’m Beta.”

    3) Why can’t women see how stupid is to follow women who say, “men are the enemy, SO LET’S MARRY ONE.”

  35. thegreatshebang

    “They might just as well have entitled it How to Be a Gold-Digging Slut 101″

    Made me laugh out loud.

    There are tons of such instruction guides as books. Titled how to marry a millionaire or such. Just do an Amazon search. Hang out in country clubs. Flatter the rich man. Don’t worry if you don’t find him sexually attractive because you can always do the pool boy for fun later in the old man’s Porsche. Those kind of tactics. Useful for single women with no kids AND single moms. I’ve met both kinds.

    In other thoughts:

    It amuses me that Feminists arguments are so badly framed, that they best they can do is troll red pill sites.

  36. deti

    RPSMF:

    Exactly. Each of these women married/partnered down. If they wanted men, they had no choice but to look down the SMV scale. None of them make it even to “cute”, much less “pretty”. “Hot” is completely out of the question. Clark Flory and Valenti are minimally attractive but have oddly masculine facial features. Marcotte’s masculine features are even more pronounced. No red pill man or natural alpha would waste any time on any of them even for a pump and dump. Only simpering betas and male feminists would spend any time or resources on any of these women.

  37. zykos

    The feminist script can work and bring happiness to a very restricted category of women: upper-class, high IQ but especially attractive women. This kind of woman can basically say and behave as she wants, she will always have a ton of men to choose from. She can very easily find one who is alpha enough to give her the emotional release she craves, but who is still obedient enough that she can retain control when she wants. Since she has a high IQ, she’s likely to actually have an interesting career in a field that is intellectually stimulating, with her parents’ and husband’s money as a cushion. And the money also allows her to get the fertility treatment if she chooses to have children later in life, the nannies and cooks and maids that allows her to pursue her interests. For her, and only her, feminism is the best possible choice.

  38. earl

    “3) Why can’t women see how stupid is to follow women who say, “men are the enemy, SO LET’S MARRY ONE.”

    What better way to abuse your enemy than to have one that comes home to you.

  39. zykos

    The male equivalent of the feminist script is a lawless society: the men who are the strongest, richest, most cunning and least remorseful would have a blast. For them, it’s paradise on Earth. Unfortunately, we know that for most people, this kind of arrangement is actually really bad.

  40. thegreatshebang

    Valenti’s photo with her husband was especially striking because he allowed the pose of both of them to be at eye level. So I’ve heard, The New York Times accepts only wedding announcement photos where the couple have their eyes at the same level.

    It is a Feminist convention to have couples photos at eye level. Not for aesthetic reasons, not for art, but for power. The woman controls the relationship so it is at eye level. It is clear the man is not “superior” because he is not UP. It is a pose specifically requested for power.

  41. deti

    Even in my bluest blue pill days I wouldn’t have considered a single mom or divorced mom. It wasn’t because of lack of attraction; but rather because I instinctively knew I’d always come second.

    I also instinctively knew that I’d be a de facto dad with all the responsibility but no authority. My money and resources would be commandeered for the benefit of someone else’s kid. I would always have to deal with ex husband/baby daddy, and pay for all his sins. I’d have no authority in my own home (“You’re NOT my dad!”)

  42. Vera

    For Christians the comments on this site are incredible, it sounds like a bunch of “mean girls” judgmental and harping. If this is an example of Christianity, who looks better than who, look at her she is too old to hook a man so has to make do with cats, whose husband makes more than whose, I’m glad not to be a part of it. The problem with stay-at-home women who live their life vicariously through others is they get really, really upset when somebody like Chelsea Clinton turns out so perfectly normal I mean she had such a rabid, feminist mother who wasn’t at her beck and call every second of every day. How on earth is that possible.

  43. Deep Strength

    @ deti

    Up until maybe, oh, 10 or so years ago, in my experience, a girl could follow, and did follow, the “life script” of education, fun, travel, relationships and casual sex, if she got a college education. If she was educated she was automatically in that “upper echelon” who could start thinking about marriage in her late 20s. She had that luxury because she was working and supporting herself.

    It’s hard for me to tell but it looks like that’s changing slightly. It isn’t enough for a woman to have a college education and a job in a school or cubicle farm somewhere. Now she has to have some sort of pedigree. She comes from money. She’s accomplished in her job and earns commensurately with that. She comes from a well known or wealthy family. She has some local or regional notoriety. She is really good looking and has kept her looks and shape.

    You’ll probably find this interesting.

    Most if not all of the men in my graduate school had no problem finding relationships to attractive females (the ratio was about 3:2 or 2:1 women to men). Almost of the men were either playing the field or were in serious relationships headed towards marriage. However, I’ve talked to multiple women from classes the same and below and they were lamenting that they couldn’t find men who wanted relationships. It wasn’t the majority of women but it was a rather large portion of the women, which would make sense.

    Graduate school men tend to have their pick since hypergamy, but they don’t always choose graduate school women. So about 20%-35% of women going for advanced degrees are going to be left single.

    The backlash is obviously already happening because the market is insolvent; however, it will only continue to get worse as the female undergraduate and graduate populations increase. I wouldn’t be surprised to end up seeing 30-40%+ women over 30 being single and never married within the next 10 years with dismal hopes for a lot of them to be married.

  44. Miserman

    The only thing feminist wanted to change was the benefit and power structure of marriage. In a traditional marriage, it was husband over wife over children, framed within a benevolent institution meant to provide and life and peace for all involved. But that required sacrifice, work, and discomfort. Now, in feminist marriage, it’s about the woman experiencing her happiness and the full potential of enjoyment of her life as the men and children are bound by vow and law to ensure her constant state of happiness and bliss.

    For the modern church:

    Jesus loves me, this I know
    For my beta tells me so
    Little ones do come along
    They all prove that I am strong

  45. Frank

    when somebody like Chelsea Clinton turns out so perfectly normal I mean she had such a rabid, feminist mother

    Chelsea is normal? Compared to what, The Howard Stern show?

  46. earl

    My own father warned me to never date a single mother or a woman who was divorced. Why? Because he did it himself and he said it was the worst experience of his life.

    He might be blue pill in a lot of other areas…but not with that one.

  47. redpillsetmefree

    We need Red Pill classes for young men and boys.

    There is absolutely no reason for males to have to live almost to midlife in some cases before they understand their worth, their Divine Headship, or their choices. And they need to understand that all those teen/20s sluts you’re angsting over, and that are rejecting you in favor of the worst men possible? Past 30 they will have little to no power, and will spend the last 50 years of their lives lamenting their loss of power, and can only use the law against you if you’re stupid enough to marry them.

  48. sunshinemary

    If this is an example of Christianity, who looks better than who, look at her she is too old to hook a man so has to make do with cats, whose husband makes more than whose, I’m glad not to be a part of it. The problem with stay-at-home women who live their life vicariously through others is they get really, really upset when somebody like Chelsea Clinton turns out so perfectly normal

    1. Nobody has mentioned anything about how much anyone else’s husband earns.

    2. Age definitely is a factor in ease of finding a husband. That’s just reality, dear.

    3. Regarding who looks better than whom, I would say I am pro- Marriage 1.0 for everyone. Most of us are just average looking, nothing special. We average looking people benefit from marriage, too. My objection isn’t that feminists are plain of face (as am I) but still get married; my objection is that they loudly bash marriage from one side of their mouth while saying “I do” from the other. They influence their lower-class sisters not to marry, then they themselves marry.

    4. Who’s a “stay-at-home” woman? You? Not I. I work outside the home part-time.

  49. Rollo Tomassi

    It’s very easy to assume single mothers are victims by default – some are, most aren’t. Trust me, a majority of single mothers are single for a reason – and it’s not always because of their Jerk BFs or deadbeat husbands. The common belief is that MILFs encourage an idea that they are more sexually available; you’ve got to ask yourself, why would they be motivted to be more sexual while single than when they we’re married or in an LTR? They become motivated to be sexual and hit the gym when single, but wouldn’t make the same effort when married, why? Because the guy wasn’t worth it OR because she became comfortable, he lost interest, became fed up, and she’s prompted to be more concerned with all that in order to achieve a long term security with another man that necessitates she do so?

  50. earl

    “For Christians the comments on this site are incredible, it sounds like a bunch of “mean girls” judgmental and harping. If this is an example of Christianity, who looks better than who, look at her she is too old to hook a man so has to make do with cats, whose husband makes more than whose, I’m glad not to be a part of it.”

    Nobody ever said that was an example of Christianity.

    If you want an example…I’d suggest reading about the life of Jesus first.

  51. sunshinemary

    Though since we’re on the topic of How Feminists Look, consider:

    Gloria Steinem

    As a young woman on the left (Did you know she was a Playboy bunny back in the day?) and today at age 79 on the right:

    Marlo Thomas

    As a young woman:

    Today at age 75:

    Are there any modern feminists who are such hot little dishes as Mrs. Steinem and Mrs. Thomas?

    Conclusion: Feminism uglifies the female herd over time.

  52. nightskyradio

    LLB – You know, now I have to wonder if Christian Bale is a feminist?

    No surprise that Batman is a feminist.

    In fact, Batman has been a feminist for over 40 years now –

    Note how it’s just fine and dandy for Batgirl to consider NOT saving them unless she gets her equal pay. Way to stick it to that wealthy fascist capitalist Bruce Wayne!

  53. deti

    “For Christians the comments on this site are incredible, it sounds like a bunch of “mean girls” judgmental and harping. If this is an example of Christianity, who looks better than who, look at her she is too old to hook a man so has to make do with cats, whose husband makes more than whose, I’m glad not to be a part of it.”

    Vera, it is simply a fact that a woman’s physical appearance is her single best bargaining chip in attracting a quality mate. A better looking woman has a better shot at attracting a wider variety of men.

    We have to deal with reality as it is, not as we wish it to be. That reality applies to Christians as well as nonChristians.

  54. Martel

    @ SSM: I have a different theory regarding the rare hot feminist. Not unlike how rich whites can get away with screwing up more than their poor counterparts, hot women can get away with a greater degree of bitchiness than uglies. In fact, an ugly’s only hope of scoring a decent man is a sweet demeanor.

    And what better way to cut off any potential competition from lower SMV females than to encourage them to act as man-repellants.

  55. bike bubba

    “The problem with stay-at-home women who live their life vicariously through others is they get really, really upset when somebody like Chelsea Clinton turns out so perfectly normal.”

    Actually, what our gracious hostess, and many commenters, is getting at is that we don’t have a problem with these ladies acting like Victorians. Instead, we revel in it, because what it means is that they, deep down, don’t believe their rhetoric. For example, Chelsea Mezvinsky, whom you mention, parlayed her looks, chutzpah, and political connections to score a real mentsch of an investment banker as a husband. Probably came in handy for buying that ten million dollar condo they live in–or at least I’m pretty sure NBC isn’t paying her enough to afford it!

    The trouble we have with them is that they’re living fairly bourgeois lives while endorsing rather bohemian values for the rest of us, and it’s wreaking havoc among many we know. Like my niece, single mom of two kids by two different dads. Pretty girl, but what man with a future is going anywhere near her? And yes, people like Gloria Steinem Bale have a degree of responsibility for this, as they worked tirelessly to set up the perverse incentives that help guide her decisions.

  56. earl

    Here’s Christianity:

    We are sinners, we know we are sinners, and beacuse of that we know we need a savior. It is also a wise idea to follow Him and His example.

    That doesn’t absolve us from having bad behaviors like everyone else.

  57. Frank

    We have to deal with reality as it is, not as we wish it to be. That reality applies to Christians as well as nonChristians.

    I’ve been pondering this, and in spite of all the huffing and puffing we do on our blogs, what’s going to change? People will continue to get worse and worse, and the pool for marital prospects for both decent men and women will continue to shrink until it’s a fossilized bed of dust. I think we need to acknowledge that many of us will simply have to remain single, because in the end even God can’t change simple math. That means either being celibate or being a PUA for most men. I feel bad for the next generation of honorable men/women because they’re going to have it ten times as worse as we do.

  58. Martel

    @ bubba: It’s hilarious how so many female “political pioneers” like Hillary Clinton and Nancy Pelosi made it where they are only because of their husbands money and power.

  59. sunshinemary Post author

    @ Martel

    I have a different theory regarding the rare hot feminist. Not unlike how rich whites can get away with screwing up more than their poor counterparts, hot women can get away with a greater degree of bitchiness than uglies. In fact, an ugly’s only hope of scoring a decent man is a sweet demeanor.

    Good point. Also, the face of feminism had to be pretty back then because the first hurdle was getting men to agree to this ill-advised social experiment.

    1970’s feminism crooned to men:

    Lookey, lookey, gentlemen, at Marlo and Gloria. All these hot little ladies want is the right to have casual sex and their own jobs. Is that really so bad?

    And men looked and said, “Why no, that’s not so bad. In fact, I would very much like to have casual sex with women who look that and whom I do not have to support financially. Where do I sign up?”

    1970’s feminism crooned to women:

    Your mama’s marriage to a boring old beta husband that The Patriarchy gave her is no fun. Laundry is no fun. Poopy diapers are no fun. Don’t you want to try out a bunch of hott guys and have some fun like Gloria and Marlo?

    And women said, “Yes, I would like to have sex with hott guys. I do not like laundry. I do not like poopy diapers. I want to have some fun. Where do I sign up?”

    It seemed like a good idea at the time, watching Marlo Thomas and Kris Kristofferson in Free to Be You and Me:

    The reality forty years later is not Marlo Thomas and Kris Kristofferson. The reality is Lumbering Lindy West and her boyfriend, Mr. Ahamefule “I’ll-hit-that-in-exchange-for-a-Green-Card” Oluo.

  60. Frank

    Frank, you sound like one of my girls. I’m not giving up hope just yet though.

    I imagine she’s too young to already be that morose. Take her out for ice cream this weekend!

  61. deti

    Gloria Steinem got wealthy on the back of the feminist movement.

    Marlo Thomas, daughter of Danny Thomas, is Hollywood royalty and married into liberal upper echelons to Phil Donahue.

    Both of them have the money to hire personal trainers and nutritionists, and purchase the best clothes, hair and makeup artists, and airbrushed photos. They can pay for plastic surgery if they want it and/or decide their careers need it.

  62. Cautiously Pessimistic

    @Frank- “I’ve been pondering this, and in spite of all the huffing and puffing we do on our blogs, what’s going to change?

    One major role the manosphere and associated sites play is in letting folks know they’re not alone in thinking things are off. When the bulk of society is pounding into you that, “No, this is normal and you need to embrace it as both acceptable and normal, and you’re crazy for thinking there’s a problem,” it’s very helpful to hear from someone that our culture is cuckoo for cocoa puffs, and yeah, there’s a problem.

    Another major role these sites play is in throwing around ideas on how to cope with the crazy.

    So to answer your question, what’s going to change as a result of the huffing and puffing is how a small niche of folks will react to the cultural sewage being dumped on us. Maybe not a huge thing in the grand scheme of things (we can’t judge that from our perspective), but it’s made a big difference to me and others as part of that small niche. At the very least, it’s kept my marriage together for a few years longer than otherwise. Time will tell if it’ll be saved, but it’s got a shot it wouldn’t otherwise have had without the ‘sphere.

  63. Elspeth

    She is young, but she’s a little concerned. The good thing is that all of my girls actually like men, hold them in high esteem. They are blessed with lots of solid, godly, dominant men in their family. Even the ones who aren’t particularly godly have a special connection with their nieces/ cousins.

    And she looks around and doesn’t see men like that who are not related to her.

    I tell her she’s too young to give up hope just yet. She hasn’t even met enough men to be so cynical.

  64. sunshinemary Post author

    They can pay for plastic surgery if they want it and/or decide their careers need it.

    And in fact, both Ms. Steinem and Ms. Thomas have had plastic surgery. Ms. Steinem discussed her eye lift in her autobiography, which I’ve read. She claims she had an eye lift because it made it easier to wear contact lenses. lulz

    As for Marlo…the proof is in the pudding:

    It turns out that feminism is a harsher mistress than The Patriarchy was when it comes to women aging.

  65. Novaseeker

    The reality forty years later is not Marlo Thomas and Kris Kristofferson. The reality is Lumbering Lindy West and her boyfriend, Mr. Ahamefule “I’ll-hit-that-in-exchange-for-a-Green-Card” Oluo.

    That’s true. At the beginning, though, there really was a large uptick in the availability of sex to a wide swath of men. That was mostly in the 1970s. And it was specific to that revolutionary era, and like many of aspects of that time, did not last into the 1980s. Beginning sometime between the late 70s and early 80s, the market began to take on the characteristics it has today, and it’s gotten steadily worse since then, slowly.

    So at the very beginning what the fems were selling was kind of true. The thing is that it didn’t last once the novelty wore off, and the more predictable result of concentration of sexual access that we see now began to set in.

  66. Frank

    And she looks around and doesn’t see men like that who are not related to her.

    This is why I’d like to think even within the context of free will that God does have designs on who would be our future spouses. I’d hate to think something so life changing as a good marriage would all merely come down to being the luck of the draw and random chance.

  67. Frank

    At the very least, it’s kept my marriage together for a few years longer than otherwise. Time will tell if it’ll be saved, but it’s got a shot it wouldn’t otherwise have had without the ‘sphere.

    I hope for your sake it ultimately does work out for you.

  68. tbc

    2nd wave feminism arose out of ‘the problem that had no name’ which Steinem rode to the top and to the bank. The ‘problem’ was the upper middle class white women were bored. and unfulfilled. Not one of these women with the ‘problem that had no name’ were in the least concerned about their black and brown minority domestics who took care of their children and cleaned their houses — you know those women whose problems had a name, chiefly husbands that didn’t make enough money for them to sit on their duff and complain all day and go to ‘consciousness raising’ sessions. Or worn out bodies from bending and scrubbing to keep someone’s house clean and then to go home to work a real 2nd shift taking care of their own families. Or scraping together enough savings to send their kids to the vo-tech school. Or dealing with the rising crime in their neighborhoods. Or the many other actual named REAL problems.

    Things have not changed at all.

  69. Cautiously Pessimistic

    @Frank- “I hope for your sake it ultimately does work out for you.

    Thanks, Frank. I do, too. And I hope you find who you’re looking for. If things work out for you, how much of it will be because you knew what to look for (and what to avoid) because of your experiences on the ‘sphere? And how much of what you’ve read on the ‘sphere is/will be responsible for you not gutting your future because you knew what the red flags were and avoided them?

    Okay, pep talk over. Buck up, Buttercup.

  70. Frank

    And how much of what you’ve read on the ‘sphere is/will be responsible for you not gutting your future because you knew what the red flags were and avoided them?

    I’ve always known what the red flags were, I just didn’t know how to attract women. I’m learning how to do that now… except that I’ve attracted some really… interesting characters as a result.

  71. ar10308

    Hahaha!

    “***WARNING, WARNING*****Julie Anne Smith of Spiritual Sounding Board blog is not responsible for any adverse medical conditions resulting from clicking on ar10308′s link to his anti-women blog.”

    My Halloween just got more awesome.

  72. an observer

    Meanwhile I’m wondering how awful a sinner a man must be

    Man i once knew lost his lovely wife to cancer. We all grieved. After a suitable period had elapsed, he began to express concern for the four boys of s single mother. The church encouraged this noble intent. He later married the single mommie, but soon after, he died unexpectedly, leaving her a widow, the boys fatherless again, and leaving behind a new house and car for her to blow.

    A contemporary tragedy.

  73. feeriker

    One of the first things I told my fiancé after we got engaged was, “I am not wearing a fucking white dress.”

    “Tracy, sweetheart, I would hope not. I cannot imagine that even a pestilent creature like you would be so crass as to insult not only the intelligence, but the dignity of the guests at our wedding by putting on such an arrogant and tasteless display of false advertising.” ~ Hypothetical response by Tracy’s mangina/doormat fiancé were he anything other than a mangina/doormat

    Heck, even the grandmother of sex-positive feminism herself, Gloria Steinem, who infamously quipped A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle!, was eventually able to reel in a husband, though he died within several years of their marriage:

    He was probably already dead even before they got married. It’s impossible to imagine a live male of the human species surviving any time in close proximity to, let alone marriage to and domicile with, a creature like Steinem.

    Oh, and Marlo Thomas, who wishes someone had told her she never had to get married? Yep, she’s married, too, to Phil Donahue.

    Talk about two people who DESERVE each other…

    Oh, and finally, is that picture of Kate Harding and the male creature she’s with intended as a birth control device?

  74. sunshinemary Post author

    @ Elspeth
    I hadn’t heard about Doug Phillips, and I’m sorry but unsurprised. Pastors like Mr. Phillips are the alpha rock stars of the Christian world, which is why so many of them get caught in the temptation to engage in sexual sin. Still I’m sorry for his wife, who seems like a sweet and pretty woman. Hopefully she will be able to forgive him.

  75. feeriker

    Rollo said Being a Christian doesn’t excuse you from critical thinking.

    My sincerest hope is that someone with more influence on Christians than you or I have will be able to make this a serious talking point. Far, FAR too many Christians can’t even define critical thinking, let alone put it into practice (not to say that the secular world is any better at it either).

    SSM said The reality is Lumbering Lindy West and her boyfriend, Mr. Ahamefule “I’ll-hit-that-in-exchange-for-a-Green-Card” Oluo.

    Yep, that’s the first thing that crossed my mind too. Thing is, I can’t see how deportation back to whatever African hellhole he hails from could possibly be any worse than marriage to the likes of Lindy West.

  76. earl

    I might just be the worst kind of Christian…a guy who loves science and scientific theory.

    So I also enjoy critical thinking.

    Thing is the truth can be found just as much in the creation as it is believing in a Creator.

  77. earl

    “I’ve always known what the red flags were, I just didn’t know how to attract women. I’m learning how to do that now… except that I’ve attracted some really… interesting characters as a result.”

    I always knew about the red flags as well…it was by learning how to attract women that they decided to show me the red flags in plain sight.

  78. bike bubba

    Sad to hear about Doug. One risk factor that Focus on the Family notes-love to hear from our hostess or Scott what they think of Focus–is that Phillips always seemed to be trying to PROVE something. In other words, looking for an ego boost outside of home, and then he compounded it with spending a lot of time at work and on the road.

    here’s the link:

    http://www.focusonthefamily.com/marriage/divorce_and_infidelity/affairs_and_adultery/danger_signs_of_an_affair.aspx

    Alpha? Well, he’s–err, was–the top dog at Vision Forum, so I guess “alpha” in that regard, and maybe in terms of “faking confidence” he is or was. However, in terms of true leadership, suffice it to say that I think there’s a reason that his was always a niche product and he always had something to “prove”, if you catch my drift.

  79. redpillsetmefree

    Let me say it again:

    Women in general are hypergamous. They always want the top tiered men, and always want to trade up regardless.
    Men in general are polygamous. We want to spread our seed, and do not want to stay with any one female, especially one past her prime.

    Accept these truths and gender based behavior will no longer mystify you.

  80. peoplegrowing

    RPSMF:

    You’ll first need to accept that there is even such a THING as “gender-based behaviors” (other than the INHERENT AWESOME that girls come with, and the inherent SUCK men have).

  81. redpillsetmefree

    You’ll first need to accept that there is even such a THING as “gender-based behaviors” (other than the INHERENT AWESOME that girls come with, and the inherent SUCK men have).

    For truthiness.

  82. Stg58/Animal Mother

    SSM is spot on. What Julie Anne and her posse can’t or won’t see is the real reason Doug Phillips got caught. The mega church is ripe for that behavior. Patriarchy is not to blame, but that he was the alpha male/top dog/rock star at the church. I firmly believe women flocked to him. If the woman he was involved with was a member, I guarantee she looked at her own husband and thought “What has he done?” Doug Phillips started this huge church amd movement and everything. Her husband was just a normal guy providing for his family.

    This reminds me of the Christian singles group I went to in California when I was stationed there. The women would date none but the worship leaders/praise band members. The hypergamous attraction was enough to overcome the otherwise intoxicating awesomeness of a bunch of 25 year old Marines in peak physical condition.

    I even tried my dad’s usually dynamite advice to no avail.

  83. Stg58/Animal Mother

    It is also a shame to see that happen to Howard Phillips’ son. Howard and my dad were pretty good friends. Too bad.

    When did we decide that huge churches were the way to go? What good is a pastor is if he doesn’t know you from Adam? How can he feed Jesus’ sheep if he has no idea who the people in his pews are?

  84. redpillsetmefree

    Let me also say this:

    For some reason, I can’t see why people can’t see all of the inherent challenges with a combo hypergamy/polygamy system.

    As Red Pillers, we understand that the girls don’t want you until the other girls do…then you become irresistible. But no one ever talks about the male side of that….meaning, that once you either choose ONE or gain status or God help you both, then YOU get served up every man’s dream, which is, more flowers than you have time to pollinate.

    Do we get that? That being as a man, if you live in a culture that espouses monogamy, and preaches it, that only cads get to live the male dream? And “good” men will have to live forever with the temptation of finally being the guy that all the girls want BUT YOU CAN’T HAVE THEM?

    [ssm: I sort of get what you are trying to say here, but I think there is an error in your premise. First off, most cultures espouse monogamy and always have. There are some polygynous societies, but they tend not to do very well. And I think herein lies your error; correct me if I am wrong, but are you saying that average men in a polygynous society have more sexual access than in a hard-monogamy society? Because that is false and in fact the opposite is true. And it is false in a promiscuous society as well because even then, only the top alphas get the majority of females. So in both polygynous and promiscuous societies, only the cads get to live the male dream. In a monogamous society, no one gets to live the male dream, but most men get one female.]

  85. an observer

    women would date none but the worship leaders/praise band members.

    Harley Rockbanddrummer, post conversion.

    And “good” men will have to live forever with the temptation of finally being the guy that all the girls want BUT YOU CAN’T HAVE THEM?

    As a blue pill man, i lived through church girls giving their hypergamous best, in their twenties, to every douchebag, pua and playa they got wet for.

    Why would i want to pay for what they gave away for free?

  86. redpillsetmefree

    As a blue pill man, i lived through church girls giving their hypergamous best, in their twenties, to every douchebag, pua and playa they got wet for.

    Why would i want to pay for what they gave away for free?

    Of course you wouldn’t, I just meant in terms of preacher scandals. They finally have enough status to live the dream, and they can’t.

  87. grey_whiskers

    @sunshinemary Post authorOctober 31, 2013 at 4:21 pm

    @ Elspeth
    I hadn’t heard about Doug Phillips, and I’m sorry but unsurprised. Pastors like Mr. Phillips are the alpha rock stars of the Christian world, which is why so many of them get caught in the temptation to engage in sexual sin. Still I’m sorry for his wife, who seems like a sweet and pretty woman. Hopefully she will be able to forgive him.

    Hi @ssm — just a quick reminder, according to his confession, Mr. Phillips said that he and the other woman did not “know” one another in the biblical sense; that it was an *emotional* affair.
    My question to the ladies here is, given the cliche that when a man has a physical affair, his standard defense to his wife is a hastily stammered “She meant *nothing* to me!”….
    is a merely emotional affair more hurtful to a wife?
    (The guy is getting a truckload of flack from the commenters on that link, mostly from heavily blue-pill women who are gleefully hanging flaming tires around his neck about many other sins they suppose him to have committed, and discrediting the entire “man as head of the house” philosophy wholesale.)

  88. Entropy is My God

    Glory… Pure glory. Let these women say what ever they choose. Let them deceive who they will. When the modern whore of Babylon (USA) fall before the wrath of GOD these women, rich and poor, will all obtain the fair and reciprocal fruits they so richly deserve.

    A prophet has no honor is his own country, relish, yes relish the absolute justice of reality as it brutally destroys all feminist suppositions. These UMC women will be prostituting their bodies for contaminated water, trash can food, and cardboard box shelter. They will hope against hope for a boring beta provider, lusting after their long gone alphas and dying of dysentery in the gutters of city streets. A more beautiful picture of life cannot be imagined.

    When the streets, and gutters, and ditches, run scab red with the dried and crusted blood of the empowered, moxie filled women, pure pleasure will rain down like the acid rain of a polluted city. We seek to keep on life support the disgusting and decrepit cancer that is modern civilization, and plead and beg with women to give up advantages we have heaped upon them. Let them have their privileges, pleasures, and power, for tomorrow we all dine in an earthly hell.

  89. an observer

    that it was an *emotional* affair.

    Women do that all the time, why the seeming double standard?

    They finally have enough status to live the dream, and they can’t.

    Yeah, iget what you mean. Was just grinding my own axe.

    Some time ago, a story was passed around about a former rock band member that converted to christianity. Apparently it was horrible. Accustomed to groupies and easy sex with 9s and 10s, taking hs new faith seriously he became celibate, until he got married, was apparently very difficult.

    I can imagine that. New convert with tatts and musical experience playing soft music during the worship time…

    Supposedly the marriage didnt go well either. Pethaps someone else can recall the story better than i.

  90. sunshinemary Post author

    @ grey_whiskers

    Mr. Phillips said that he and the other woman did not “know” one another in the biblical sense; that it was an *emotional* affair. My question to the ladies here is, given the cliche that when a man has a physical affair, his standard defense to his wife is a hastily stammered “She meant *nothing* to me!”….is a merely emotional affair more hurtful to a wife?

    My husband had lots of physical affairs but no emotional ones. I found enough emails and letters to get a pretty good sense of what was going on, and he confirmed that he only kept girls around so long as they understood it was casual and meaningless. The minute any of them started getting any ideas that an actual relationship might occur, he nexted them.

    So I’ve thought about this topic a lot over the years, especially as I’ve had friends whose husbands did have emotional affairs and even a few who left their wives to move in with or marry other women. And I have to be brutally honest here: I think their situation was worse than mine. That doesn’t mean having your husband sleeping around is good – it’s very, very bad and can even be dangerous if he isn’t careful. But just in terms of the emotional impact on a wife…in my opinion, it’s less awful if it was just meaningless sex. I am very, very grateful that I never had to deal with finding out that my husband was in love with another woman and my heart goes out to any woman who has had to deal with that.

  91. Tacomaster

    I have a sneaking suspicion that Andrew Golis is playing for the other team. Just a theory from his expression and body language. Any one else get that?

    ssm: In some pictures, he sets off my gaydar. In others of him, not so much. Maybe it’s because he’s put a baby in her, but he looks straight here.

  92. Sarah's Daughter

    is a merely emotional affair more hurtful to a wife?

    Yes. Because it indicates how much he has lacked with her and he’s so pathetic that he continues to lie about the situation. It was likely (hopefully) only an “emotional” affair because it was not allowed, for whatever reason, to actualize in sex. Though it may seem like the blow shouldn’t sting so bad because there was no sex, there aren’t many women alive who believe sex wasn’t something he desired with her. A man who just bangs a woman lustfully without growing friendly/intimate with her first, is much easier to stomach. We understand that sex can be all about release to a man and many times has nothing to do with being an expression of loyalty or love. We see a solution to this – give him more sex and more of the sex he desires, be more desirable to him. The solution to the man who becomes emotionally connected to another woman (if that really exists) is more complicated. It means he has rejected (or found lacking) everything that is her and their relationship including physical intimacy. I have a very hard time believing in the validity of an “emotional” affair. I’d much rather believe my husband was lying and called it an emotional affair because that softens the blow in our feminist society when in truth he was just sinfully expressing his polygamist lust than believe that my husband was in need of an emotional relationship with a woman. To believe that would lesson his attraction in my eyes. I’d see him as needy and unstable. A man, who desires to hold his wife’s attraction, can not rely on women to provide him with emotional stability. That’s what his relationship with the Lord is for and supplemented by men he holds in utmost respect – not women.

    In essence, to hear that he has had an emotional affair means that now I not only need to figure out if he is still lying, I need to find forgiveness for him, honor my covenant with him through long suffering and prayer, and get over the fact that if he is not lying, and really did need this woman emotionally, that my attraction to him as a man is shattered.

  93. anonymous_ng

    You’ve heard it said that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not to their own facts. The corollary is that everyone is entitled to their own choices, but not to their desired reaction.

  94. Sarah's Daughter

    that it was an *emotional* affair.

    Women do that all the time, why the seeming double standard?

    Because it’s a lie. A pretty good one that I gotta admit, is pretty crafty on the part of the men who claim it. It should work, shouldn’t it?

    Women, can be in love with another man for years and never have sex with them justifying in her mind that she’s doing nothing wrong. Men do not have this ability. Well, if they do, seriously have the ability to be in love with another woman for years without having sex with them…ugh…likely not the type of man who is attractive to either woman.

  95. Tacomaster

    AR10308, I don’t think you’re liked over there! Lol. Apparently, you’re “anti-woman”.

    SSM, okay so I’m not alone on that. Thanks for the clarification.

  96. redpillsetmefree

    I’d much rather believe my husband was lying and called it an emotional affair because that softens the blow in our feminist society when in truth he was just sinfully expressing his polygamist lust than believe that my husband was in need of an emotional relationship with a woman.
    To believe that would lessen his attraction in my eyes.
    I’d see him as needy and unstable.
    A man, who desires to hold his wife’s attraction, can not rely on women to provide him with emotional stability.
    That’s what his relationship with the Lord is for and supplemented by men he holds in utmost respect – not women.

    In essence, to hear that he has had an emotional affair means that now I not only need to figure out if he is still lying, I need to find forgiveness for him, honor my covenant with him through long suffering and prayer, and get over the fact that if he is not lying, and really did need this woman emotionally, that my attraction to him as a man is shattered.

    Read and learn my male friends, do we all understand the impact of what’s being said here?
    As far as women are concerned, they are supposed to need us. We are not supposed to need them.

    This completely demonstrates & validates(not that I doubted it) Rollo’s instruction that we cannot find the rest we seek in a woman.

    They are incapable of loving us the way we want. If you didn’t have a good mother to nurture you, oh well, you’re out of luck. You will never get it from a woman. The more you need her, the more you turn her off. It is the epitome of Blue Pill Manginaness.

  97. sunshinemary Post author

    @ Sarah’s Daughter

    HHG’s affairs made me feel angry and hurt and question if I still wanted to be his wife, but I’d be lying if I said they made me feel less sexually attracted to him.

  98. redpillsetmefree

    HHG’s affairs made me feel angry and hurt and question if I still wanted to be his wife, but I’d be lying if I said they made me feel less sexually attracted to him.

    DING DING DING. Exhibit B. Her hindbrain LOVES your polygamous nature. She is ferally charged by the idea of you being desirable to, and sleeping with. other women.

    Imagine the opposite. Imagine if SSM’s husband had spent his years trying to please her. She would’ve cheated on him and left him years ago.

  99. bluedog

    hey bodycrimes

    You know, you can totally use the comments section here to argue with SSM on the substance and merits of her claims and arguments. She’s totally cool with that and I know because I do it all the time. And she hasn’t labelled me or featured me as title in a mocking article that demeans my person or called me a jerk or an asshole or insisted that I’m an indecent person who no one should listen to.

    I know you got pointed in this direction by Futrelle. Funny thing on some narrow political questions I’m probably closer to Futrelle than SSM (little things like suffrage for example) but I still like it better here because SSM has something I value more than agreement:

    Intellectual integrity

    oh yeah, that and class

    She makes arguments and owns them, while reading, internalizing and respectfully responding to what she disagrees with. That would be instead of mocking, cherry picking, generalizing and generally ideating a desire her adversaries shut up, like someone else you and I both know.

    This article covers an uncomfortable topic about race and gender. SSM isn’t the first to notice or talk about it. Here are some other uncomfortable topics covered elsewhere. You’ll notice youknowwho kind of gives them a pass … with him it isn’t so much substance as “who?”

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch/2013/08/22/214525023/twitter-sparks-a-serious-discussion-about-race-and-feminism

    http://www.policymic.com/mobile/articles/52763/hey-white-feminists-don-t-forget-about-women-of-color

    http://prospect.org/article/black-and-white

    [ssm: Bluedog, you are the rare leftist who actually behaves and speaks like a rational human being. Oh, and thank you for the kind words. :)]

  100. Sarah's Daughter

    Read and learn my male friends, do we all understand the impact of what’s being said here?
    As far as women are concerned, they are supposed to need us. We are not supposed to need them.

    This completely demonstrates & validates(not that I doubted it) Rollo’s instruction that we cannot find the rest we seek in a woman.

    They are incapable of loving us the way we want. If you didn’t have a good mother to nurture you, oh well, you’re out of luck. You will never get it from a woman. The more you need her, the more you turn her off. It is the epitome of Blue Pill Manginaness.

    Redpill,
    I’m pretty sure you, in particular, understand this and have accepted it. However, there are key words you’ve used that give me pause: the impact

    I would hope this understanding would be freeing to men. That knowing this elusive nurturing (that they have been taught from society to need from their wives) is a lie. Now, that is not to say that a wife doesn’t nurture her husband in other ways. For example, when he isn’t feeling well, it is very satisfying, as a wife, to be able to nurse him back to health. In whatever means necessary; chicken soup, deep massage, etc etc… Or when he’s had a setback, bad day at work, frustrating encounter…she will eagerly join “team her man” and carry on with him about how right he is and how wrong the world is.

    What a woman is unable to do, is provide an emotional strength that he needs to find spiritually within his relationship with God, and/or that he can be led to by other godly men. She can not lead him emotionally. It’s not biblical, not possible, not going to happen.

    There should be no “impact” with this Truth.

    And, knowing this because I am raising a young man, this emotional strength can not be given from a mother to her son. A mother can nurture her son when he’s sick, she can join his team when he needs support…she can NOT stand in the stead of the relationship he needs with his father and with God. She MUST stay out of this willfully lest she raise a son who believes he needs it from his wife.

  101. Sarah's Daughter

    HHG’s affairs made me feel angry and hurt and question if I still wanted to be his wife, but I’d be lying if I said they made me feel less sexually attracted to him.

    Of course. This is why I am so happy that you have always been forthcoming and honest about this, considering your blog’s scope. This drives feminists absolutely bat shit crazy – projection of course. The male sex drive is highly arousing to women. I think it irritates us all actually, but feminists will lie about it until they’re blue in the face. I am highly irritated by the fact that I have been insanely jealous and insecure at the same time as being highly attracted to my husband. However I am committed to Truth so this reality needs to be brought to the light. It sucks, and we’ve been conditioned by society to have the urge to run away from them, especially when it’s gone so far as infidelity. But there is another way that makes it all right…You KNOW you made the right decision, that no scenario of you leaving him works out better for you, for him, or for God (your testimony being so impactful). Meanwhile many women have gone along with the feminist script (of course not the feminist leaders’ examples – think Hillary Clinton) and left their marriages to only be filled with deep regret and still an ever present need to forgive. Well if there is going to be a need to forgive in order to have healing, might as well forgive and keep the marriage intact.

  102. redpillsetmefree

    @Sarah
    From my perspective, this last post of yours clarifies what you meant a little bit better, because we’re addressing two different things using similar nomenclature for both.

    This facet of nurturing:
    For example, when he isn’t feeling well, it is very satisfying, as a wife, to be able to nurse him back to health. In whatever means necessary; chicken soup, deep massage, etc etc… Or when he’s had a setback, bad day at work, frustrating encounter…she will eagerly join “team her man” and carry on with him about how right he is and how wrong the world is.

    …is what even the strongest & healthiest of men want and adore. You may not understand that many women do not even provide THAT. Prostitutes and mistresses are much better at it than the average American wife.

    This facet of nurturing:
    ,What a woman is unable to do, is provide an emotional strength that he needs to find spiritually within his relationship with God, and/or that he can be led to by other godly men. She can not lead him emotionally. It’s not biblical, not possible, not going to happen.

    ….this is a needy man, who is mostly still a boy, who needs to find his God, his own internal resolve, and his balls. So if you meant that discovering that your husband was seeking Nurturing Type 2, to the detriment of himself and his marriage, then I see your point.

    Initially it could’ve been misconstrued that you meant Nurturing Type 1, which even the toughest of us need, and sometimes it seems that some women confuse and/or merge both types as if they are the same thing, and they are not.

    So the impact I was speaking of has to do with if we’re merging or confusing the two, because a lot of men and women believe that even Type 1 is a sign of weakness, which is what I thought initially that you meant. But you meant neediness and a lack of headship ability, not comfort & support. I can see it better now re-reading your first post in the light of your second one.

    But let me stress again….even Type 1 Nurturing these days is an exceptional thing to find in a woman.

    ssm: You know, it’s interesting, but there seem to be a number of women around here who have actually done Nurturing Type 1 pretty well. Four of us did a group post about that on my old blog:

    What to do when your husband is injured or ill.

  103. Sarah's Daughter

    I see what you’re saying.

    This is very sad if it is true that married men are not able to find that Type 1 Nurturing from their wives. My goodness, that’s a lot of the fun of being married. Being on his team, fighting the fight with him, and of course pampering him when he isn’t feeling well.

    Geez, if it’s a struggle for women to feed a man some soup, rub his aching back, or tell him the world can f**k off ‘cuz “it’s you and me babe” – however does she simply serve her family a roast beef dinner on any normal day of the week?

  104. redpillsetmefree

    This is very sad if it is true that married men are not able to find that Type 1 Nurturing from their wives. My goodness, that’s a lot of the fun of being married. Being on his team, fighting the fight with him, and of course pampering him when he isn’t feeling well.

    Geez, if it’s a struggle for women to feed a man some soup, rub his aching back, or tell him the world can f**k off ‘cuz “it’s you and me babe” – however does she simply serve her family a roast beef dinner on any normal day of the week?

    Again. Prostitutes and mistresses. Those are the only types of women where you can count on Type 1. Not wives.

  105. an observer

    Rpsmf,

    I get the implications. They are rather sobering. They can need us, but we cannot need them, or depend on them, because at any time and on any topic, wifey can change teams and bat for team women.

    I wonder if this diatribe about emotional connection isnt just disguised hate for some socalled dude that couldnt close the deal. What sort of alpha has emotional affairs, for crying out loud?

  106. nightskyradio

    Martel – More whining about how the men of the left are still too sexist: http://www.thenation.com/blog/176875/there-still-misogyny-progressive-movements#

    I read that and followed the link at the bottom to here –

    http://www.thenation.com/blog/176853/new-york-connecticut-and-ohio-students-demand-end-gender-violence

    Pissed Off Trans* People and other sympathetic groups have been removing gendered bathroom signs at Wesleyan University and replacing them with all-gender signage and a statement on bathrooms, safety and transantagonism at Wesleyan. Members of our group have been physically threatened and verbally and sexually harassed because we use the “wrong” bathrooms, and the university’s administration has ignored it. We are responding to our day-to-day experiences as trans* and gender non-conforming people and changing these spaces in real time. We recognize gendered bathrooms as inherently violent forms of surveillance, targeting in particular poor, undocumented and of color transgender, gender non-conforming and intersex people. Through growing resistance, we aim to make the current bathroom gendering system at Wesleyan untenable.

    I seriously wondered if this was a gag, but that excerpt contains another link to an article about desegregating bathrooms which has this nugget of gold - “We want to remind white and documented people and people with class privilege that those most likely to experience violence and increased surveillance from gender- segregated bathrooms are people of color, poor people, and undocumented people.” Because classist and gendered bathroom violence, you know!*

    SSM, your “feminists and marriage” stuff is soooo passe and obsolete. I ride the bleeding edge of oppression here.

    * For the record, I’m cisbathroomed. For now.

  107. donalgraeme

    This post by Hearthie seems appropriate in light of the dialogue between SD and RPSMF:

    http://hearth-tobelovely.blogspot.com/2013/10/types-of-wives.html

    Some men seem to have real trouble with the idea that women can’t love you back the way you love them. While this wasn’t exactly comforting to find out when I originally learned it, I was able to accept it without too difficulty. After all, those bonding needs can still be met, just not necessarily from a wife (or other woman). More troubling is what is alluded to earlier, the fact that even those male needs which women can address (solace is big for me) they seldom will.

  108. nightskyradio

    Martel – Batgirl was an example of an early attractive feminist, She almost made me hit puberty as a four year-old.

    The Batman TV show with Batgirl was in reruns when I was about 5 or 6, around the same time Lynda Carter started as Wonder Woman. I think I hit puberty around 8…

    P.S. You think Batgirl was feminist? Do you know the backstory behind the creation of Wonder Woman? Female supremacy, an island of women, and “loving submission” is just scratching the surface.

    [ssm: Yeah, I think the Wonder Woman thing was modeled on the Island of Lesbos, no?]

  109. an observer

    The impact relates to never fully trusting that the first mate will fully support my decisions, may choose to question them arbitrarily, and usurp my authority whenever she chooses without any fear of reprisal.

    I find there are some issues I simply cannot confide to my wife about because she either disagrees with how I see it, or flat out doesn’t want to deal with them.

    Is this the loneliness of leadership they talk about?

  110. an observer

    Donal,

    Perhaps it would be more tolerable is society was still vaguely masculine. But it isn’t, and too many men are just as deluded, just as ignorant and just as present oriented as most women are. Too focussed on sport, or hobbies, or whatever it is they use to achieve escapism.

    Frank hinted at this in his recent entry, read it here.
    Geeksjourney.com

    The isolation of modern manhood is exacerbated by being countercultural. I have maybe one friend who I could talk to about almost anything. He finds the same thing, that most modern people are impossible to have a conversation with.

  111. earl

    “This completely demonstrates & validates(not that I doubted it) Rollo’s instruction that we cannot find the rest we seek in a woman.”

    This triggered something in my brain.

    Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. “Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. “For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.” Matthew 11:28-30

    I can’t argue with that.

  112. earl

    Basically I unload my problems spending time with Jesus. He knows what I’m going through and how to relieve them. Or at other times some trusted male friends…they don’t hold it against me.

    Women…nah. They wouldn’t care anyway so I don’t bother telling them.

  113. earl

    “HHG’s affairs made me feel angry and hurt and question if I still wanted to be his wife, but I’d be lying if I said they made me feel less sexually attracted to him.”

    Got it…women’s emotions don’t matter…only their actions.

    Just like guys.

  114. earl

    @ observer

    No kidding…I’m getting more ignorant by the day. But it is bliss.

    [ssm: This made me LOL.]

  115. Elspeth

    @ SD and RPSMF:

    Donal linked to the conversatio we had on Hearthie’s blog, and it’s a good one. We also talked a little about the flip side on my blog using Debi Pearl’s types of men as a springboard:

    http://lovingintheruins.wordpress.com/2013/10/29/which-wife-are-you/

    The harder a life a man has had, the more I think he prefers a wife who is primarily a haven, first and foremost. Hearthie put it this way: ‘Life is had. Wife is soft.”

    Most women today don’t really want to be a haven (although I personally relish the role). They want to be seen as exciting, sexy, and tough. In a world where there are a lot of soft men such as the world in which we now find ourselves, this can work. When you’ve had an easy life, you aren’t really looking for solace, are you?

    Today’s women aren’t good nurturers and men aren’t particularly interested in that until the kids come along anyway.

  116. redpillsetmefree

    I get the implications. They are rather sobering. They can need us, but we cannot need them, or depend on them, because at any time and on any topic, wifey can change teams and bat for team women.

    Yes, this too.
    Coupled with the fact that they are actually turned on when we’re wanted by other women makes things even more maddening.
    “I love that you can cheat but I’ll hate you if you actually do cheat but I’ll be even more aroused by the cheating but if you depend on me too much you’re a mangina and no attraction for you.”

    I wonder if this diatribe about emotional connection isn’t just disguised hate for some socalled dude that couldnt close the deal. What sort of alpha has emotional affairs, for crying out loud?
    He’s lying. Just like Ted Haggard was about being gay and doing drugs. No straight dude rents male escorts and does lines of coke off his ass. No married dude has an “emotional affair” but doesn’t “know” the woman.

  117. Elspeth

    For the record, I tend to agree with Biike Bubba on the Vision Forum thing. It’s a niche ministry, and Doug Phillips is not a rock star. There are large swaths of the conservative Christian faithful who have never heard of Phillips or Vision Forum.

  118. redpillsetmefree

    Some men seem to have real trouble with the idea that women can’t love you back the way you love them. While this wasn’t exactly comforting to find out when I originally learned it, I was able to accept it without too difficulty. After all, those bonding needs can still be met, just not necessarily from a wife (or other woman).

    The Red Pill life. It’s illusion busting.

    More troubling is what is alluded to earlier, the fact that even those male needs which women can address (solace is big for me) they seldom will.

    This is what forty years of feminism hath wrought.
    Men have to accept that these days we can’t even count on regular sex from a wife….so what’s the point of being married?

  119. Obliterated

    SSM, wondered if you had seen that article at the Daily Caller about the “godfather of hipsterdom” saying feminism is bad for women. There’s been some hilarious fallout on my FB after a friend posted.

    [ssm: Can you give us a link?]

  120. deti

    “But just in terms of the emotional impact on a wife…in my opinion, it’s less awful if [a husband’s physical affair] was just meaningless sex.”

    Confirming what I’ve long suspected: The man’s affair jeopardizes the marriage much more if he gets emotionally involved with another woman than if the affair is physical only.

    The woman’s affair jeopardizes the marriage with any sort of extramarital attachment, physical or emotional.

  121. earl

    It would also seem the man jeopardizes his marriage if he gets too emotionally involved with his own wife.

  122. Cautiously Pessimistic

    It would also seem the man jeopardizes his marriage if he gets too emotionally involved with his own wife.

    Bingo! Ding ding ding ding! A bitter truth worth knowing.

    [ssm: Why bitter? If you are looking to your wife to fulfill you in ways that only God can, you shouldn’t expect it to work out. The operative word here is TOO; it doesn’t mean that a man can’t be emotionally involved with his own wife at all. Of course he can.

    Look, the same is true for women and dependence. A woman jeopardizes her marriage if she gets TOO dependent on her own husband. There are some things she must depend on God for. That doesn’t mean she can’t be depend on her husband at all.]

  123. Maeve

    Maybe I’m just wired differently, but my husband’s infidelity has not made him more attractive to me – quite the opposite, actually.

    [ssm: He has not made himself more attractive as a husband, but that doesn’t mean he has made himself less sexually attractive, which is all I was referring to. Also, correct me if I am wrong, but the difference here is that your husband has actually left you for the other woman and has started a new family with her, correct? I think that is a whole different ball of wax than a husband who cheats but has no intention of leaving his wife.]

  124. AJ

    A man having an affair doesn’t make him more attractive. Attractive men are able to have affairs. It seems very likely that a woman will divorce a cheating man, even if his affair is the casual unemotional type. Thankfully affairs aren’t something that women HAVE to tolerate anymore.

  125. AJ

    Maybe I’m just wired differently, but my husband’s infidelity has not made him more attractive to me – quite the opposite, actually.

    It’s a sign of weak character and poor self control. The man is putting his wife’s health and his children’s family at risk for sexual thrill. It is immature, disgusting, weak behavior and there is nothing attractive about that.

    [ssm: You are confusing what is sexually attractive to females with what they desire in a husband. Women find men who could cheat but choose not to do so quite attractive. And try to remember that I have never argued that infidelity is good (it isn’t) or right (it isn’t). No one has argued that sexual infidelity is the sign of a strong character and good self control, and there isn’t much benefit it defeating an unmade argument.

    I think you are making a foundational error in believing that everything women find sexually attractive will be morally right and will have to do with appropriate family formation. But unfortunately, the reality is that women find cads appealing. Pick up artists have a term for this…I think they call it “pre-selection” or something like that. Again, it violates our sense of morality, but it doesn’t cease to exist just because we don’t like it.]

  126. AJ

    I think that my 9:51 am comment basically covered your response. Attractive men can cheat, but it isn’t the ability to cheat that makes them attractive.

    I never stated that everything that women find sexually attractive will be right and moral. Weakness in a man is not sexy and cheating on your spouse risking her health and your children’s family is a sign of weakness, not strength. Even if the man is very attractive and desired by a lot of women a woman who sees his infidelity for the weakness that it is will be less attracted.

  127. Gabrielle

    Elspeth,
    It took a long time for me to realize my husband valued femininity over sexy. Actually, it took reading red pill sites to learn that men in general value femininity over sexy. Of course when you grow up seeing sex everywhere, one tends to put their worth in that, especially if you don’t think you have much else to offer a man. It took most of my marriage to realize this.

    Earl,
    What is your avatar? I feel like I have seen that photo before, like a Russian author or something. It has been driving me nuts for several weeks!

    Maeve,
    I think in general when someone is cheated on it causes a lack of attraction. My first husband cheated on me. I was still mid teens and he was 20. I thought I would die without him but the more I have evaluated the situation, the more I have realized that my attraction to him started dying right when I learned of his infidelity.

    As a aside note, do any of you think a woman can have sexual partners, relationships or marriages and NOT find their alpha? I couldn’t figure of why I never longed for my old boyfriends or first husband until I realized my Alpha is my husband. Maybe it is all the books I have read, redemption and grace too, that make me adore my husband. I have thought about this a lot. I value my husband more than myself. My only conclusion is something akin to salvation in Christ, I recognized I was unworthy but husband saved me and made me whole (of sorts, not doing Christ’s work mind you). What says you?

  128. sunshinemary Post author

    Even if the man is very attractive and desired by a lot of women a woman who sees his infidelity for the weakness that it is will be less attracted.

    AJ, you want it to be less attractive. I also want it to be less attractive, honestly I do. The problem is that in reality, it isn’t less sexually attractive to women. It just isn’t, and pretending that cads aren’t attractive just denies reality. Honestly, how do you then make sense of the way in which women throw themselves at cads? How do you make sense of the fact that women actively chase after married men? Because they do, you know, and quite often, as this rather horrifying site indicates:

    She’s a Homewrecker

  129. Just Saying

    “marriage as an out-dated [snip] oppressive institution.”

    It certainly is oppressive toward men, that’s why I have nothing to do with it. Besides, why lock yourself into one woman when there are new ones coming on line all time? One of my bucket list items is to have sex with women born over a century – at least a couple in each decade. Got the 20’s, 30’s, 40’s, 50’s, 60’s, 70’s, 80′, and 90’s covered so far – it pays to have sex with older women when you’re young and they are still attractive. Heck, at that point in my life, I would’ve banged wood if there is a hole that worked and I wouldn’t get splinters… Still got a couple more decades to go before I hit that 100 year mark – I always take the girl out to celebrate when I break into a new decade – we’ll see if I can do the 10’s without having to pay for it – or be on pills. The power of youth is an amazing thing… :) Only 5 more years and I’ll be into the 0’s… Looking forward to that….

    See, Feminists do have some good ideas… Making all of those young women available for man, and making them crave the attention of a older males so they will jump through almost any hoop for it… That’s why I say that men couldn’t have dreamed up an organization that was so beneficial to men if they had tried. Marriage was always inconvenient to a man – now young women have bought into it. No strings… Gotta love it… :)

    Women are the ones that WANT to be married – they want to nest. I hear it all the time – young women telling me they want what their grand-mother had, and I just smile because that ain’t happening. I’ll use her for sex, but that’s all I really have a need, or use, for her for – everything else, I can hire someone or contract it out. That is why they are only sex objects to me – that is the only thing a woman can DO FOR ME. I have people come in and and clean, do my laundry, press my suits – they are fast, efficient, and I don’t have to listen to them drone on about non-sense. And if I want more starch, or cleaner lines – I can pick another without having the old one take half of my stuff. All I “need” or “want” a woman for is sex – and thankfully, they have been trained by Feminists to do everything I want or need in that area. (Thank you ladies.) Everything else – I got covered… Kids? Men never wanted those little parasites anyway… Give me young women, with no encumbrances, and tight bodies and I’m a happy man…

  130. earl

    I think a lot of women are attracted to bad boys because bad boys sin all the time due to poor character and women can use that as emotional blackmail when they decide to do sinning of their own. It’s amazing the moral agency they find when a man or woman does the same horrible things they do.

    You never let a serious crisis go to waste.

    All the more reason to stay on the right side of the line both in action and emotion. It may not attract women…but they can’t blackmail either.

  131. AJ

    AJ, you want it to be less attractive. I also want it to be less attractive, honestly I do. The problem is that in reality, it isn’t less sexually attractive to women. It just isn’t, and pretending that cads aren’t attractive just denies reality. Honestly, how do you then make sense of the way in which women throw themselves at cads? How do you make sense of the fact that women actively chase after married men? Because they do, you know, and quite often, as this rather horrifying site indicates:

    Some women throw themselves at attractive married men. Cads tend to be very attractive people which is how they can be cads. Most men aren’t attractive enough to be cads or to have women throwing themselves at them, married or not. Cads aren’t attractive because they are cads, they can be cads because they are attractive.

    If it was just the ability to have sex with a bunch of women that was attractive then any man with the money to buy a prostitute would be attractive.

  132. AJ

    Hmmm. Suddenly my comments aren’t showing up.

    [ssm: I checked my spam folder and pending folder and there are no comments from you in them.]

  133. Maeve

    [ssm: He has not made himself more attractive as a husband, but that doesn’t mean he has made himself less sexually attractive. Also, correct me if I am wrong, but the difference here is that your husband has actually left you for the other woman and has started a new family with her, correct? I think that is a whole different ball of wax than a husband who cheats but has no intention of leaving his wife.]

    This is true – he did leave. But it’s not as though I don’t see him on a fairly regular basis. The thing is, now my reaction is “what made you ever want to have sex with him?” rather than “I wish we were in bed together again”. Of course, as you pointed out, it could be the circumstances that have contributed to the change in how I react to him.

  134. earl

    “That’s why I say that men couldn’t have dreamed up an organization that was so beneficial to men if they had tried.”

    It is actually the elite men that created feminism. But it wasn’t to benefit other men…it was to benefit themselves only. They want all the money and power.

  135. Farm Boy

    I thought feminists turned into Elder Sluts with only cats for company?

    Yes, your thoughts are correct. This is what typically happens if you are not rich and/or famous

  136. Farm Boy

    It’s kind of like a keeper of the home who spends hours blogging and works outside the home

    Are the children deprived of what they need?

  137. Cautiously Pessimistic

    @ssm- “Why bitter?

    From the perspective of a man taught from day one to emote, be in touch with his feminine side, to treat women as if they were equal but better, etc. it is a bitter experience to learn all of that was a lie and that you’ve been sabotaging yourself all this time. Particularly when no authority figures in your formative years were telling you what you should have known.

    It seems I stepped into the middle of an argument already in progress, so I’ll leave it there.

  138. Farm Boy

    Probably 80% of the posts are women giving each other advice on how to squeeze more money out of their children’s fathers while simultaneously reducing his access to his children. The other 20% are about dating and wondering why men only seem to want single mothers for sex and not relationships.

    It is odd that a post about being a mom is so little oriented to mothering.

  139. Farm Boy

    “It’s a sign of weak character and poor self control.”

    Character and self control are not needed these days, as the government papers over any problems caused by the lack of these.

  140. feeriker

    Or when he’s had a setback, bad day at work, frustrating encounter…she will eagerly join “team her man” and carry on with him about how right he is and how wrong the world is.

    Much more likely to happen is that she’ll let him know, in no uncertain terms and accompanied by a heavy helping of derision, that he needs to “man up” and keep such negative expressions to himself. NO wife wants to see her husband in such a vulnerable state – EVER. It brings into question his ability to function as protector and provider, an uncertainty that, to her biological hardwiring, signals not only potential danger, but also his lack of further utility to her.

    As RPSMF says in response to SD:

    This facet of nurturing:
    For example, when he isn’t feeling well, it is very satisfying, as a wife, to be able to nurse him back to health. In whatever means necessary; chicken soup, deep massage, etc etc… Or when he’s had a setback, bad day at work, frustrating encounter…she will eagerly join “team her man” and carry on with him about how right he is and how wrong the world is.

    …is what even the strongest & healthiest of men want and adore. You may not understand that many women do not even provide THAT. Prostitutes and mistresses are much better at it than the average American wife.

    BINGO.

    Earl said It would also seem the man jeopardizes his marriage if he gets too emotionally involved with his own wife.

    This too. I don’t know if it has always been this way throughout human history and in all cultures, but it certainly is true of marriage in the contemporary Western world.

  141. earl

    What has happened is that women have unmasked themselves. They might not have liked it if a guy talked about his problems to her…but she kept her opinions to herself. Plus the man was investing everything about him into her…because she was investing everything about herself into him.

    Now we got women who have no filters, no self-control, and hypergamous desires unleashed. Today, undesirable emotions are the male Achilles heel. Why do you think Heartiste keeps talking about outcome independence, aloof and laconic game, and smirking all the time? It’s to keep your emotions at bay.

  142. Rollo Tomassi

    Not to pile on SSM but,..

    HHG’s affairs made me feel angry and hurt and question if I still wanted to be his wife, but I’d be lying if I said they made me feel less sexually attracted to him.

    http://therationalmale.com/2012/03/09/relationship-game-a-primer/

    Women don’t want a Man to cheat, but they love a Man who could cheat.
    […] Always remember that your attractiveness to other women is an associative reflection on your spouse’s attractiveness to hold your sexual interest in the long term.

    @Redpill, the Phillips “emotional affair” is a textbook example of a guy who Just Doesn’t Get It:

    http://therationalmale.com/2012/08/22/just-get-it/

    If Phillips had outright nailed this girl the impact would’ve been him coming off as at least contextually Alpha. He would’ve been an adulterer, yes, but he would still be a guy “who gets it” and would’ve still retained the ‘preselected’ status that women are ALWAYS trying to confirm (hypergamy, shit-testing, etc.).

    Instead he weakly cops to some unconsummated ‘emotional infidelity’ and confirms his status as a Beta Orbiter of this woman. He doesn’t ‘get it’, and he confirms his feminized mindset by endorsing the feminine narrative already established for him. Thus his female persecutors hate him with the contempt even a rapist couldn’t inspire. He willingly plays the role they have set for weak men (Beta chumps).

  143. Just Saying

    “the reality is that women find cads appealing.”

    And that simple reality is what it takes men the longest to embrace because they DO NOT WANT it to be true. Heck, I wanted it NOT to be true. It is a powerful tool, once you realize it because it DOES pay to advertise. I remember being in a group and I left with a girl I had met only a bit before, was gone for a while and came back after we were finished, and I could see the women with the other guys looking. They were saying what their BF’s wanted to hear – “OMG you just had sex with her! You don’t even know her! I could never do something like that.” I just smiled and said, “a gentleman never tells”. It didn’t take long before they were rubbing against me when their BF’s weren’t looking, or otherwise coming on to me. After all, there must have been something she saw and wanted – and women hate to think they are missing something. That is why guys like me exist. If our behavior wasn’t rewarded, we wouldn’t do it… But we are, so it does…

    That is when I learned women will often say what they “think” people want to hear, but they cannot control what they find attractive. That is why I say, never listen to what a woman says – look at what she does… There are some men that I would say the same thing about – the present President comes to mind – but most men are straight-forward and just tells it like it is. I think such lying to themselves and others is mostly a “woman” thing…. But there are notable exceptions – the present President being the most obvious. (That is my opinion – he’s about as Beta as they come and I wouldn’t shake his limp-wristed hand if I were threatened with death.)

  144. earl

    “After all, there must have been something she saw and wanted – and women hate to think they are missing something.”

    Well since most women are having sex anyway that isn’t what they are missing…what they are probably missing is a man who is actually confident in his actions.

  145. Farm Boy

    As for Marlo Thomas, don’t be “that girl”

    As for Lindy West, I hope she got a good cache on Halloween night.

  146. Farm Boy

    women hate to think they are missing something

    Oddly enough, guys understand that they can’t have everything. Why can’t women?

  147. Farm Boy

    Or when he’s had a setback, bad day at work, frustrating encounter…she will eagerly join “team her man” and carry on with him about how right he is and how wrong the world is.

    If a fella can’t get this, and if he can’t get sex out of a marriage; then is there any benefit to him at all of a marriage.

  148. Maeve

    “Oddly enough, guys understand that they can’t have everything. Why can’t women?”

    @Farmboy – it’s because other women keep telling them that they can and that’s who they’re listening to.

  149. earl

    “Oddly enough, guys understand that they can’t have everything. Why can’t women?”

    Because that is a logical understanding.

  150. redpillsetmefree

    It’s because other women keep telling them that they can and that’s who they’re listening to.

    TELLING. Not SHOWING.
    That’s the difference between men and women.

    None of the “powerful” women have a man that’s worth SPIT. They’re betas at best.

    They don’t have it all. Not by a longshot.

  151. earl

    “If a fella can’t get this, and if he can’t get sex out of a marriage; then is there any benefit to him at all of a marriage.”

    The privilege to accommodate a Special Snowflake™ on her unique journey of self-reliance and independence?

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  153. feeriker

    Oddly enough, guys understand that they can’t have everything. Why can’t women?

    Because all too often, women are GIVEN everything they want – be it from supplicating beta orbiters, alpha cads, henpecked husbands, the State and its institutions, or other women. Once your every whim is catered to, solipsism and selfishness kick into high gear, leading to a sense of entitlement that cannot be denied without resulting in tantrum that threatens to disrupt society itself. Most people want to avoid dealing with this, so they simple cave in to women’s every demand.

  154. Amanda

    I’m trying to wrap my head around this preselection business, because honestly, I have never felt that way. In my youth I had two different guys with “caddish” reputations interested in me. Both guys were attractive and funny; both had no trouble getting dates. I remember at first being flattered that I even rated on their radar, but after that few moments of feeling good about myself, I just saw the truth of the situation — these guys would tire of me eventually and it wasn’t even worth it to date them. I turned them both down, tyvm, and found out later one hated me for it (go figure). So that has been my experience.

    Now, thinking hypothetically about this, I can see how a man with options would seem more attractive because he is probably good looking and has a lot of confidence from his exploits. Also, women are catty and like the idea of besting other women. So I don’t think it’s the cads they adore so much as the status it affords them to date the cads — they make other women envious. I also think homewrecker women also operate on this principle — they actually like the idea of stealing the affection of the man from his wife more than they care about the actual man. Women can have a mean streak. I worked with a woman who was attempting to date a married man because she told me she liked getting his attention from his wife. Of course I told her she was despicable.

    For a man to have “preselection,” I don’t think he actually has to sleep with a lot of women, but just have the looks/status/personality to attract and date a lot of them if he wants. My husband was a good looking guy in high school/college, captain of football team, wrestler, etc. Girls liked him, but he chose not to date because of his faith. Even when he was considering me for a wife, there were two other available young ladies in our church who let their interest be known. I never really thought if this contributed to my attraction for him — perhaps it did, but I know his willingness to not date around (and cat around) was a big attraction factor for me.

  155. Amanda

    That is very sad to hear about Doug Phillips. Although I’m only marginally familiar with his ministry, I have liked some of their homeschooling items. Hope they are able to work things out.

  156. Obliterated

    @Amanda, I think women like you and me (cause I feel the SAME way) are very similar…thankfully there’s the NAWALT thing. he he Not that anyone will ever BELIEVE that we really, truly were yucked out by that cad-ish attitude. Oh well. Whatev.

  157. Amanda

    You know what, Obliterated, the more I think about stuff like hypergamy and preselection, the more I think it’s not necessarily NAWALT, but that I think these qualities express themselves differently in different women, due to maturity, upbringing, personality, faith tradition etc. Like I said in the last comment, I WAS flattered by the caddish guys who liked me, and they were attractive guys, but I was able to see they weren’t valuable due to their behavior, and this overrode attraction for me. It might not for others. But I probably couldn’t say they were objectively unattractive to me. The same with hypergamy — as I thought about it, most women do want the best they can get, but this will express itself differently in different women. Which is why I think we feel NAWALT.

  158. Deep Strength

    @ Amanda

    I’m trying to wrap my head around this preselection business, because honestly, I have never felt that way. In my youth I had two different guys with “caddish” reputations interested in me. Both guys were attractive and funny; both had no trouble getting dates. I remember at first being flattered that I even rated on their radar, but after that few moments of feeling good about myself, I just saw the truth of the situation — these guys would tire of me eventually and it wasn’t even worth it to date them. I turned them both down, tyvm, and found out later one hated me for it (go figure). So that has been my experience.

    Now, thinking hypothetically about this, I can see how a man with options would seem more attractive because he is probably good looking and has a lot of confidence from his exploits. Also, women are catty and like the idea of besting other women. So I don’t think it’s the cads they adore so much as the status it affords them to date the cads — they make other women envious. I also think homewrecker women also operate on this principle — they actually like the idea of stealing the affection of the man from his wife more than they care about the actual man. Women can have a mean streak. I worked with a woman who was attempting to date a married man because she told me she liked getting his attention from his wife. Of course I told her she was despicable.

    Don’t confuse attractiveness and desirability.

    1. First, the cads were “attractive and funny” by your admission.

    2. However, your preference for desirable characteristics disqualified them.

    This is the same thing as men finding a woman beautiful and attractive, but then they find out about their nagging, bitchy, etc. personality and drop them like a bad habit.

    This is the same thing as if I find out that a beautiful attractive woman is not a Christian and thus don’t pursue them for a relationship.

    This is the same thing as if I see a beautiful attractive woman smoking and it totally repulses me from her.

    Women want men that are wanted by other women. However, if they have some foresight — usually taught in childhood through actions and consequences and good morality — they know to disqualify cads even though they are attractive.

    Attraction is on a fundamental level I cannot help to be attracted to a beautiful woman, just like women cannot help to be attracted to good Looks, Athleticism/talent, Money, dominant Personality/Power, high Status — LAMPS (see donalgraeme’s post). However, desirable characteristics can often disqualify attractive men for consideration.

    Pre-selection falls under status — they are men that are desired by other women and thus they have higher status within the group. Women cannot help but be attracted to this, much like they are attracted to the status of leadership.

  159. Amanda

    You know, Deep Strength, that is exactly what I am realizing, and I was saying above to Obliterated. It’s true that objectively people are attractive to you or not. It’s also true that women will see status in a guy that has a lot of options, so that can make him more attractive. Then it all comes down to filtering, and I do think NAWALT in terms of how they filter.
    I’m also kicking around the idea that women find guys with options attractive because they like the status and being better than all the other women in terms of the man’s choice. It’s an ego trip.

  160. Deep Strength

    @ Amanda

    I’m also kicking around the idea that women find guys with options attractive because they like the status and being better than all the other women in terms of the man’s choice. It’s an ego trip.

    1. See: Hypergamy
    2. Yes, women compete with other women more viciously than men do with other men. At the end of the day when men play sports we know it’s just a game (at least most of us do). However, women hold grudges infinitely. That’s why you see women trying to bring others down with them when they do something stupid (feminist sluts advocating to more chaste women that N doesn’t matter, etc.), or attempt to put others down when they succeed (gloating that their child walked a month early, etc.), or attempt to bring others back when they are succeeding (formerly obese women getting slim, etc.).

  161. Calliso

    “You know, Deep Strength, that is exactly what I am realizing, and I was saying above to Obliterated. It’s true that objectively people are attractive to you or not. It’s also true that women will see status in a guy that has a lot of options, so that can make him more attractive. Then it all comes down to filtering, and I do think NAWALT in terms of how they filter.
    I’m also kicking around the idea that women find guys with options attractive because they like the status and being better than all the other women in terms of the man’s choice. It’s an ego trip.”

    Yep this is very very true for a lot of women.

  162. Farm Boy

    Yes, women compete with other women more viciously than men do with other men.

    Indeed. They view the stakes as being higher due to hypergamy. They figure that all it might take for that top guy to choose them is just a little “improvement” in themselves or a small “detriment” to their competition. And it is all worth it (morality or not), because getting a top man is worth it.

  163. Farm Boy

    Or when he’s had a setback, bad day at work, frustrating encounter…she will eagerly join “team her man” and carry on with him about how right he is and how wrong the world is.

    When I was married, I would go to work and do battles there; then come home and do battles there also. The work battles were preferable. I did not like going home.

    Now that I look back on it, it is clear that the home battles were really about the “lack of tingles”, but this could not be expressed clearly by the ex-wife. There was plenty of money, a nice house, etc., but for lack of tingles a marriage fell.

    Definitely not “Team Her Man”
    More like “Team Tingles”

  164. Obliterated

    @Amanda,
    Yeah, that makes sense. Pondering it further has led me to think that perhaps, in my case, the objective “he’s good-looking and funny” was understood but didn’t mean *I* was attracted TO him. It played out like, “I can see that pretty much everyone on the planet can agree that that man is handsome.” Maybe the other “vectors” disqualified him so rapidly I didn’t even have a chance to register personal attraction. ? The one vector I have never noticed present/active (before marriage) in me on any level is money, unless you count “isn’t homeless.” It is interesting to think about. It has come to play after marriage you could say in the form of simply “let’s try to stay at least a bit above poverty level.” He he Being to other poor countries has given me quite a bit of perspective on what it means to really be poor.

  165. Amanda

    @ Obliterated

    “Yeah, that makes sense. Pondering it further has led me to think that perhaps, in my case, the objective “he’s good-looking and funny” was understood but didn’t mean *I* was attracted TO him. It played out like, “I can see that pretty much everyone on the planet can agree that that man is handsome.” Maybe the other “vectors” disqualified him so rapidly I didn’t even have a chance to register personal attraction.”

    Yes I know exactly what you mean. When I first found manosphere blogs (linked over from PJ Media I think) I was like “What?! No way!” about some of the theory behind the discussions. And I’m no feminist; I have attended an independent Bible based church for fifteen years, ten married, which teaches right male/female Biblical roles. I have been a submitted wife since the beginning of my marriage (which, incidentally,has led to a great marriage with very little conflict). I used to read a lot about men’s issues because I felt the divorce and child support laws were very unfair to men. We have four little boys, so my heart is very much with the plight of Christian men in society. I like to be in the know about topics concerning men because of my sons. Even so, I have had to process some of this theory because it didn’t seem to line up with my experience.

    That being said, I have come to see some realities with women, that all women to varying degrees do seek the best man they can get, and do find the popular guys attractive. But I think women express these drives differently. When I was in high school, I was kind of nerdy and a late bloomer. Suddenly, toward the end of school and into college, I started to get a lot of attention. Since I had experienced being not very popular, to becoming more popular in terms of attention from men, I saw both sides of the fence, and guys who were “alpha” weren’t very attractive to me because I knew how things would turn out due to experience. But I still could see how they were attractive, and had my life been different,I probably would have been interested in them as it was part of my nature. So AWALT and NAWALT at the same time.

  166. Sarah's Daughter

    @Farmboy
    (Quoting me) Or when he’s had a setback, bad day at work, frustrating encounter…she will eagerly join “team her man” and carry on with him about how right he is and how wrong the world is.
    When I was married, I would go to work and do battles there; then come home and do battles there also. The work battles were preferable. I did not like going home.

    Now that I look back on it, it is clear that the home battles were really about the “lack of tingles”, but this could not be expressed clearly by the ex-wife. There was plenty of money, a nice house, etc., but for lack of tingles a marriage fell.

    Definitely not “Team Her Man”
    More like “Team Tingles”

    Lack of tingles and lack of obedience to God.

    When both are in lack, it spells disaster.

    This is not for you to learn from, Farmboy, this is for women reading. There will be times when women are not attracted to their husbands (tingles). Obedience to God says “so what?” – it is “team her man” darling, do this for Me, as unto Me. Grow in maturity just enough to get over your own damn self for a minute and Serve your Lord by respecting your husband!

    If you (women) can not conceive of it because “he doesn’t deserve it” blah blah blah, know this: it is rewarding to you.

    Women are really so stupid. If they only knew what is in store for them should they just be their husband’s team mate and not his adversary. And it doesn’t even necessarily come from her husband. Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom. For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you. Luke 6:38

  167. Farm Boy

    When I was in high school, I was kind of nerdy and a late bloomer. Suddenly, toward the end of school and into college, I started to get a lot of attention.

    A dose of humility at a young age can do a body good.

  168. Farm Boy

    Aww, it’s heartwarming to see even the nastiest feminists get married to men of the same SMV as they are.

    I would prefer “lower in value”

  169. Farm Boy

    As I grew up and began identifying myself as a feminist, there were plenty of issues that continued to make me question marriage: the father “giving” the bride away, women taking their husband’s last name, the white dress, the vows promising to “obey” the groom

    Well, I can agree with her on the “white dress” issue.

  170. Farm Boy

    Lack of tingles and lack of obedience to God.

    But wait, there’s more.

    My stepson, who was very close to me, begged her not to blow up the marriage. He would grab me, and grab her, herd us together, and make us hug.

    [ssm: That is so sad.]

  171. Farm Boy

    women hate to think they are missing something

    Perhaps that comes from their “gathering resources” bent.

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