The passive rebellion of backleading.

dancing couple

Several years ago, I encountered the idea of topping from the bottom.  Upon looking into it, I found that this expression comes from the BDSM community, of which I am not a part, and refers to the tendency of the supposedly-submissive partner to manipulate the supposedly-dominant partner into doing what she wants him to do.  Because she manipulates him in a covert way, it still appears that he is in control of the relationship, but really she is the one calling the shots.  Because I’m not into BDSM, I haven’t tended to use this phrase, even though the idea is useful for discussing the marital hierarchy of authority.

However, I learned a new word recently that works much better: backleading, which Badger explains is a ballroom dancing term referring to a woman who is “resisting the lead’s kinesthetic instructions that are part and parcel of partner dancing.”  Does the man who is leading the dance like it when a woman offers this kind of resistance?

I can however confirm the not-uncommon habit of women backleading, many times unapologetically or with a coy sort of “sometimes I backlead, teehee.” And I’d be remiss if I didn’t communicate to women that backleading is very unattractive to men.

So no, men don’t like backleading from women.  Badger goes on to explain why some women backlead on the dance floor:

…Generally speaking, women enjoy the follow, as evidenced by their oft-stated desire for a firm, masculine lead on the floor…However, a subcircuit of girls in dance play up the backlead thing as a sort of dodge or hustle or a “feisty” personality statement. If you are getting a LOT of backleading with multiple partners, you are probably not leading strongly enough. But if a particular partner is very strong with the backlead, she’s either not very fluid and not self-aware of that fact, or she’s trying to set up a power game. If you think this sounds like a shit test, you’re right…sometimes you are being teased and baited into reasserting yourself, where the winning tactical move is to resist her resistance but the strategic move is to take your ball and go home without tolerating unnecessary difficulty. I normally keep a two-strike policy – the first backlead earns a firm correction with an accompanying warning look. The second is the end of dance for her and I take her off the card for the night.

There is an obvious parallel between ballroom dancing and marriage, and I think backleading is a potential pitfall for women who have decided that they want to be in marriages that are faithful to Ephesians 5:22-24:

22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.

but who aren’t really ready to relinquish control.  A wife in this situation wants it to seem like she is submitting to her husband’s leadership but really she is trying to backlead him into making decisions that she feels like submitting to and not making decisions that she doesn’t feel like submitting to.

The problem is that this kind of relational backleading is destructive to the marital hierarchy and is ultimately going to be unsatisfying for the manipulated husband as well as the manipulative wife.  It essentially turns the husband/Captain into a puppet and the wife/First Officer into the one pulling the strings.  Unfortunately, women both deeply fear and deeply desire to submit to their husbands, but the puppeteer can’t submit to the puppet because when she lets go of the strings, down the puppet goes.

Backleading stands in contrast to a bit of playful feistiness or resistance in bed, of course.  Play wrestling or pretending that she’s trying to pull away or push him off can be a fun dynamic where he asserts his strength and domination by pulling her back, playfully pinning her down, or not letting her push him off.  That can be quite delightful for a woman to submit to, but it is a far different dynamic than the manipulativeness of trying to backlead one’s husband.

Lady Reader, if you are trying to assert a feisty personality by using backleading in your marriage, I think you are making a mistake.  We’ve discussed before that a small amount of sauciness can be tantalizing to your man, but you’ve got to know when to lay off the sauce, and it’s sooner than you think.  This kind of backleading is misguided,  but not truly evil, in that it simply doesn’t work; it won’t attract the man but neither is it rooted in a rebellious heart.

But there is another way that a wife sometimes uses backleading: as a means of passive rebellion by which she gets to call the shots while looking like a good little submissive wife.  This is actually full rebellion masquerading as obedience.  Backleading is rooted in a fearful heart that clutches at the reins of power as a means of trying to maintain control over one’s world.  But women were not designed (neither by nature nor by nature’s God) to have this kind of control, and we are not happy being frightened puppeteers.

Women: let go of passive rebellion and manipulative backleading. 

Further reading:

Dalrock: Untethered

Elspeth: Transforming my mind as a Christian wife.

MMSL: Learning Captain and First Officer

Stingray: It Comes Down to Trust

Sunshine Mary:

241 thoughts on “The passive rebellion of backleading.

  1. masonkramer

    The exact moment when I decided not to propose to my last girlfriend and break up instead was at a salsa class where she responded to my complaint of backleading with, “Sometimes I backlead, tee-hee”. The exact moment.

  2. sunshinemary Post author

    @ mk

    Wow, that’s a powerful comment that single young women should take note of.

    Backleading: it costs you marriage proposals, girls, and marriage proposals are no easy thing to come by in these modern times.

  3. masonkramer

    I think it’s probably clear from the context here that the actual problem wasn’t that she was a bad dancer – that’s unfortunate but not a deal breaker. But the connection between backleading in dance and backleading in the marriage was too obvious. It goes deeper than metaphor.

    I know her better than she realized. What she was doing was checking off the box on her feminist merit badge checklist, marked “sassy gender-bending power dynamics / pegging”.

  4. Miserman

    I would say backleading alos applies to relationships that appear to be egalitarian. The man and the woman are feminists and claim they are in an equal, fifty-fiftymarriage when in reality, she is backleading so that it looks like the feminist idea of an equal partnership and egalitarian marriage when it is in fact a matriarchal arrangement.

  5. tbc

    I would say backleading also applies to relationships that appear to be egalitarian. The man and the woman are feminists and claim they are in an equal, fifty-fifty marriage when in reality, she is backleading so that it looks like the feminist idea of an equal partnership and egalitarian marriage when it is in fact a matriarchal arrangement.

    This is exactly true. To put it in blunt biological terms, humans are primates and thus hierarchical arrangements are simply what we do. In any relationship, someone is generally dominant and someone submissive. So-called ‘egalitarian’ marriages tend to default to the woman being the leader (and many so-called complementarian relationships too). This is so much more the case when legally women hold the upper hand and socially have that upper hand status reinforced by culture both in and outside of the church. I’ve seen many ‘egalitarian’ married men defer to their wives, but it never seems to work the other way around. She really is the one calling the shots.

  6. ballista74

    And it’s exceedingly common in the Church anyway. It’s not overtly advocated, but when a man is told to “step up and lead”, he is supposed to take direction from the wife on how to lead. It feeds into that men are base and vile tenet of feminism. Of course the whole frame of “leading” in a marriage involves what is useful to a woman – in the end she is the one who is Master of the Marriage anyway, even if she is feigning submission.

    [ssm: The whole frame in a marriage under Churchian 2.0 version may extend from such an idea of leading, but that is certainly not what is ought or must involve.]

  7. Jana

    Personally, I don’t understand what all this focus on submission is, and why some women insist on being the boss. If you trust and love the guy, then she should also trust that he’s going to do the right thing.

    However, I also don’t understand why some men just have to show to everyone that he’s the dominant one, like he’s looking for approval.

    I guess I’m just ambivalent to the whole thing, and believe that a couple should do whatever works for them both, not abide by some strict set of rules.

  8. Jenny

    I am reading a book called My So-Called Life as a Submissive Wife and it is fascinating. It is interesting to read not someone who hates the concept or a book that presents it as easy but one that shows the struggles involved and that it is a constant thing to be aware of.

    She (the author Sara Horn) uses the acronym HIS – Honor, Intention, Selflessness which I found was an interesting presentation of following God’s guidelines for wives.Thus far the book has only mentioned mutual submission and is focusing on wifely submission. It is nice to see a book that presents a modern view of submission. It is a subject that either is negatively viewed in feminist terms or presented as a romantic almost Victorian ideal.

    “It doesn’t say submit to your husbands if you feel like it. Or when you want to. Or if you agree. It says submit to your husbands. The same way you submit to God.”

    To me submission seems to be a heart issue. Someone could pretend to submit and all the while be plotting and manipulating behind the scenes but true submission, the kind that God demands, is purer and truer than that. x

  9. infowarrior1

    THE GENTLE ART OF RULING A HUSBAND

    The rule of women over men is the survival of the fittest.

    The best thing that can happen to a man is to be ruled by his wife; but she should rule him so discreetly, so diplomatically, that he could almost boast that it is he who rules her. At all events, he should remain very undecided which of the two it is that rules the other. And when a man is not quite sure that it is he who rules his wife, you may take it for granted that it is she who rules him. Of course, I start from this indispensable, fundamental element, that there is love between husband and wife. Without love existing in matrimonial life, no rule can be laid down, no advice can be given on the subject.

    How is the art of ruling a husband to be learned? The American and the French girls are at a good school; they have only to study how Mamma does it. I have travelled all over the world, and so far I have discovered two countries only in which the men are in leading-strings and the women are the leaders—my own beloved one and the United States of America. In these two privileged nations the women lead the men by the nose; but in America the women boast of it, and I do not think they should. In France the women do not boast of it, but they do it, and with a vengeance. Yet, before the people a Frenchwoman will always say: ‘Oh, I do so and so because it pleases my husband.’ Dear little humbug! does she, though! Butter would not melt in her mouth when she says that.

    Now, the rule of the women over the men, both in France and in America, is simply the survival of the fittest, the power of the most keen and intelligent; but for all that, and perfectly as he may realize it, a man objects to his submission being obvious to everybody. In public he will let his wife pass first; in the elevator with her he will take off his hat; in the street car he will give her a seat and remain standing. All this is not submission; it is merely politeness. He behaves, not like a henpecked husband, but only as a gentleman, and a man should always be as polite to his wife as he would to any lady he comes in contact with. A French gentleman, who meets his wife in the street and stops to speak to her, remains with his head uncovered until she begs him to put on his hat. A French son does the same to his mother.

    This leads me to the first and the most important principle of the art of ruling a husband, and that is, never to allow him to do to her, or before her, what she knows he would never think of doing to or before any lady of his acquaintance—at any rate, without her permission. The day on which either a husband or a wife says, ‘Oh, never mind; it’s my husband,’ or ‘Oh, it’s only my wife; I can do as I please,’ on that day, that awful day, Cupid packs up his traps, and when that little fellow is gone he never comes back; he is too busy visiting.

    To rule a husband it is not at all necessary that the wife should be the more clever of the two, unless by clever you mean intelligent, much less that she should possess a better education than he. The latter qualification would probably lead her to rule him in an assertive and aggressive manner, which would be fatal to their happiness. Very few marriages are happy when the wife is the superior of her husband. I know very clever men, scientific and literary men of prodigious ability, who are completely ruled by charming little geese who are fortunate enough to possess the most enviable of gifts—common-sense, delicacy, refinement, consideration, amiability, devotion, unselfishness, and a good temper. These men enjoy the rule of their wives thoroughly.

    God save you, my dear fellow-man, from the conceited woman who cannot do wrong! You will find that you cannot live up to that. If the day after you are married you discover that your wife is perfect, run away for your life. Perfection in a woman ought to be a cause for divorce. In fact, never have anything to do with angels this side of the grave.

    How I do love that simple, fascinating little woman who gently puts her arms round her husband’s neck, kisses him, and confesses that she was wrong! What a brute that man is if he does not at once take that dear creature in his arms and make all the apologies he is capable of for behaving in such an ungentlemanly way as to force his wife to acknowledge that she was in the wrong! That man, if he is a gentleman, a man even, will spend weeks and weeks after such a confession attending to the smallest wishes of his wife. I would lay all I am worth in this world at the feet of a woman who would acknowledge that she was in the wrong. Most of them will argue and talk you deaf, dumb, blind, and lame, until, for peace’ sake, you will say: ‘Yes, dear, you are right, of course. How could I imagine for a single moment that you were not?’ Then a ray of satisfaction flashes across her face, which seems to say to you: ‘I knew you would have to acknowledge it.’

    To rule your husband, my dear lady, do exactly as you please, but always pretend that you do as he pleases. That is where your ability comes in.

    Men are ruled, as children are, by the prospect of a reward. The reward of your husband is your amiability, your sweetness, your devotion, and your beauty, of which you should take a constant care. Love has to be fed constantly. And always let him suppose that it is for him only that you wish to remain beautiful.

    ——————————————————————————–

  10. Lee Lee Bug

    My husband is very stubborn so I doubt that trying to top from the bottom would be a very effective strategy.

    The concept of backleading is very interesting to me. Since we first met, my husband and I have attended conservative churches that frown on or outright prohibit social dancing, so we’ve never danced together, not even at our wedding. I’ve never thought of ballroom dancing as an extension of the husband/wife hierarchy but it makes sense.

    I’ve found that prayer is the best strategy when I’m struggling to submit to my husband. Many times God has softened my heart, making it easier for me to follow my husband’s lead. Occasionally, He’s changed my husband’s mind about something and led him in another direction.

    Speaking of this, a really neat thing happened yesterday. I was making breakfast and my husband was sitting at our kitchen island watching me while looking at real estate listings on his laptop. Years ago, when we moved to the town we currently live in, I had wanted to buy a little yellow Craftsman-style bungalow in the village while he had wanted to build a new home on several acres in the country. I submitted and we ended up building the more expensive country home.

    Out of the blue yesterday he said, “Lee Lee Bug, remember that yellow home you fell in love with years ago? It’s on the market again.”

    Then he told me that he has been a bit overwhelmed with the physical work involved with taking care of our property and our ever-increasing property tax bill (our taxes have quadrupled over the past decade). He has been praying for God to show him how we could downsize.

    He suggested that I contact a Realtor about listing our home and he asked if I would still want to live in the little yellow bungalow.

    All I can say is God had to be involved in his change of heart as he was dead set against living in town when we moved here. I’m not sure if anything will come of it as the real estate market around here has been dead for years and homes in our home’s price range tend to move very slowly. But, it was exciting to hear that he would be willing to give me the home I had wanted so long ago if it were possible.

  11. Amanda

    Great post — and I like the term “back-leading”; it’s a perfect descriptor. I’ve been guilty of attempting to do this — I think all women are at some point. It’s in our nature. The grace of God is that I see when I am getting like that and can repent and turn from it.

    **”I’ve found that prayer is the best strategy when I’m struggling to submit to my husband. Many times God has softened my heart, making it easier for me to follow my husband’s lead. Occasionally, He’s changed my husband’s mind about something and led him in another direction.”**

    Yeah me too. Prayer and the Lord showing me all my short-comings so I get knocked down off my high and mighty peg lol. That’s an awesome testimony about your house, BTW. You’ll have to update on how it turns out :).

  12. FuzzieWuzzie

    Captain Capitalism has remarked on this more than a few times. For a long time, his night job was as a ballrom dancing instructor. Although he never used the term “backleading”, he has strongly advised that woen who take the lead are terrible propects. I believe him.
    From a relationship standpoint, what we seem to be talking about here is manipulation albeit subtle. It’s still poison.
    More hazards for men. Yikes!

    [ssm: Calm thyself, dear Terrified Bear. This post is aimed at women. It isn't meant as some kind of warning list to men. You know, a woman reading on men's sites like RoK, which are aimed at helping men be better men (by some definition of "better" anyway, which sometimes does and sometimes does not square with Christianity.) would probably become more terrified of men than is really called for. Could you be experiencing the same thing?]

  13. sunshinemary Post author

    @ LLB
    That’s a neat story about the house. It’s nice that your husband may change his mind about the decision he made, but even if he hadn’t, it’s worthy of praise that you followed his decision without complaining and aren’t hassling him with I told you sos. Anyway, we can’t know that he made the wrong decision or that buying the bungalow would have been the right one, since we can never know what would have happened. It may be that he made the right and best decision then and that selling this house and buying the other one would be the best and right decision now.

  14. The Karamazov Idea

    I thought about this a lot after I stopped courting a religious girl I was talking to. She was an avowed follower of Ephesians 5 and paid great lip service to the male-led model. However, she seemed unwilling to deal with some of my hobbies (drinking, going on fast drives with friends on back-woods roads although never at the same time), mannerisms (my appallingly dark and or dirty sense of humor), and my cynical attitude about the world. the last card up the hamster’s sleeve is to surrender to leadership, but choose an impotent leader.

    You can’t lead a genuine leader. You can lead somebody play-acting the part. I think a lot of evangelical women tend to favor gelded men. I’m by no means a saint, but a lot of my qualities the girl didn’t enjoy are ones found in Biblical heroes. What these women want is the soft-spoken clean-shaven president of the college Bible club who is always early, never insults, and is as non-threatening as a non-fat chai latte. These guys are easy to lead. I knew I was begging for disaster dealing with a woman who wanted to lead and was too passive-aggressive to even admit it, so I cut it off and gave the hard next.

    My dad didn’t. He often describes my childhood home as a ship. He’s the captain, mom was the first mate. Except she controlled the house in every decision from what the weekly schedule was to what was considered contraband. The only edicts came from her and for all intents and purposes she ruled. She just nominally acted as if her authority came from my father. The moment he voiced apprehension, she played any number of Eve-ish games laying passive-aggressive waste to his attempts to lead. The backleader is a usurper, borrowing from the very system of power to subvert it and gain control. The sharp-tongued shrew who quotes scripture out of the mouth and emulates the world with her hands is a dangerous specimen, and one I’m glad I spotted and washed my hands of.

    This is the “complementarian” disorder that @TBC was mentioning.

  15. Farm Boy

    My ex once said to me, “You need to figure out how to walk in front and beside at the same time”.

  16. FuzzieWuzzie

    Terrified Bear has found something inspirational on youtube. Thought to share.

    [ssm: Cute, Fuzzie!]

  17. Sarah's Daughter

    This is actually full rebellion masquerading as obedience. Backleading is rooted in a fearful heart that clutches at the reigns of power as a means of trying to maintain control over one’s world. But women were not designed (neither by nature nor by nature’s God) to have this kind of control, and we are not happy being frightened puppeteers.

    Dare I say it is more vile than overt rebellion? When I’ve witnessed it, I’ve been convinced she doesn’t even know she’s doing it. And because she doesn’t know where her stress and anxiety is coming from (being in the lead) she will be highly convinced she does have a real chemical imbalance and a real need for drugs to help her. (I have someone specific in mind who is on a cocktail of SSRI’s – outside looking in, it seems obvious what the problem is, she’s not designed to be leading the way she is but she’s convinced he’s making the decisions.)

    She’s got to know…right? I honestly don’t think so. I think there are women who have been so successful in doing this for so long that they aren’t doing so with malicious intent. I think their husbands will have to put it to the test like Badger does in dancing. But first he must become aware of it. So I understand Fuzzie’s concern – this is another hazard. Yes, however you’re one step ahead of the game, you know it’s possible and something to be aware of.

  18. Patrick Irish

    “Several years ago, I encountered the idea of topping from the bottom. Upon looking into it, I found that this expression comes from the BDSM community, of which I am not a part, and refers to the tendency of the supposedly-submissive partner to manipulate the supposedly-dominant partner into doing what she wants him to do. Because she manipulates him in a covert way, it still appears that he is in control of the relationship, but really she is the one calling the shots. Because I’m not into BDSM, I haven’t tended to use this phrase, even though the idea is useful for discussing the marital hierarchy of authority.”

    Did you “barely miss” getting involved with the BDSM community? Consider yourself lucky. I almost got sucked into that underworld myself and the little I dabbled, saw that it was filled with some very broken human beings. I suppose that’s the draw. One thing thought that they are HUGE on consent and drawing up parameters and agreements in contract. “it still appears that he is in control of the relationship, but really she is the one calling the shots” The word “relationship” might not be fitting here because BDSM, while sometimes possibly bleeding over into other areas of life, particularly if the pair want it to, generally is confined to the bedroom or to the sexual aspect of the relationship. In fact you’ll often find the more dominant partner in all other aspects is the sub in the bedroom and vice versa.

    [ssm: I wouldn't say I "barely missed" getting involved with it since I could see pretty quickly that it wasn't my cup of tea. Several years ago someone pointed me toward a site called Taken In Hand, but after browsing through a handful of articles, I was like, "What is all this consensual non-consent nonsense?" There's no draw for me in that; I'm interested in a functional, biblical marriage, which is why I am interested in the Captain/First Officer dynamic.]

  19. Lee Lee Bug

    @SSM
    I am blessed in that my husband always makes decisions he feels are best for our family.
    We got a great deal on our land b/c the former owner was getting divorced and wanted to get rid of it quickly and we built our home before the real estate boom so we got a good price on the contractor-related costs. If we manage to sell it, we’ll make a profit. If not, we’ll continue to enjoy living in a well-built house with pretty mountain views. Either way, I can’t complain.

  20. Deep Strength

    I would bet you upwards of 60-70% of Christian women pay lip service to submission.

    God looks at the heart.

  21. Julian O'Dea

    I was told by a dance teacher that it is possible for a very good woman dancer to “backlead” in a competition if the man is less competent. But that is agreed beforehand.

    In my limited experience women love being led on the dance floor and they get this dreamy, beatific look on their faces.

  22. Sarah's Daughter

    Honestly, Deep Strength, I think your percentages are a bit low. I was just discussing this with my husband. What looked like submission in our marriage for the first 14 years was actually just agreement. We had been on the same page for so long it was easy for me to say I was in submission to him. While there’s nothing wrong with that, what gets overlooked is exactly what you stated, “God looks at the heart.” He sure does! It is a huge wake up call for a wife when the man who has for fourteen years made decisions you agree with makes one you don’t (almost as if God intended it to happen in order to reveal to a woman…her heart).

    I know a lot of women. Among them I can only confidently say 2-5% of them are in submission to their husbands. Granted, most of the rest are in agreement with their husbands, it becomes obvious who is actually in submission when there is a disagreement. Many times this happens first around seven years in to the marriage. I am very wary of women who speak of submission who have not been married more than ten years.

  23. nightskyradio

    Allamagoosa just texted me –

    Her: I keep expecting you to leave a comment on Mary’s latest thread about me yelling at you while squaredancing

    Me: Hahahaha…I might have to. or is this your sneaky way of leading me into doing exactly that? :P

    Her: I don’t know

  24. The Karamazov Idea

    @Sarah’s Daughter

    That sounds about right. From what I’ve observed in the dysfunction of my family, it’s a cycle. My father always apologized, even when he was right. My mother never admitted wrongdoing, even when she was indefensibly wrong. It’s the Eden problem: an unwillingness to lead, and a refusal to be held accountable for one’s actions.

  25. Julian O'Dea

    SD

    Exactly. It takes time and a real issue to arise. Then it becomes obvious. If a man is engaged and a real issue arises before the wedding and he ends up backing down, that is a bad sign.

    In reality, very few real crunch decisions arise in a marriage. Maybe one every couple of years. That is when the truth comes out. I have only seriously “pulled rank” a few times. Fortunately, my wife has knuckled under.

    I think a lot of men try conclusions once, lose, and inwardly give up. From then on, it is weak jokes with his mates (buddies) about who really wears the pants and a lot of “Yes, dear”.

  26. ANorthernObserver

    SD posits: ” I am very wary of women who speak of submission who have not been married more than ten years.”

    I had a conversation with another blogger who asserted they’d never had a fight. When I responded “not possible”, she protested otherwise.

    Now I see why she could say what she said. Thx SD!

  27. sunshinemary Post author

    SD

    What looked like submission in our marriage for the first 14 years was actually just agreement.

    Yes, that’s a good point; serious disagreement on a course of action doesn’t come up often. But I think the little stuff is actually what tends to communicate disrespect on a day-to-day basis; copping a little attitude, not being kind, not seeking and valuing his input and guidance…

    But in addition to that, it can look like agreement but really be manipulation. I think that’s probably more common than we suspect, and I would be willing to admit that I have been guilty of this very thing.

    TKI

    My mother never admitted wrongdoing, even when she was indefensibly wrong.

    I think that perhaps shows a lack of humility, which is a very common problem in modern women.

    @ nsr
    She yelled at you?

    Mmm. Did you wash out her mouth with soap after that? (sorry Alla, but it’s for your own good, darling. Hebrews 12:11 and all that.)

  28. Julian O'Dea

    SSM

    I don’t mind a little bit of manipulation. The question is why the little minx is being conniving. It may not be to a bad end. Sometimes it is funny to watch the feminine mind in action, finding cute ways to get around the Old Man. Provided it is not something major, it is not a problem. Both the women I have known well have done it. I just don’t find it offensive with the one I am married to.

  29. peoplegrowing

    I don’t mind a little bit of manipulation. The question is why the little minx is being conniving. It may not be to a bad end. Sometimes it is funny to watch the feminine mind in action, finding cute ways to get around the Old Man.

    I would imagine this also comes down a lot to what you are being “manipulated” to do. I’m sure there is a big difference in a woman using her wiles to “manipulate” you into, say, taking out the trash (“Won’t you please get this? Little ol’ me can’t manage these heavy trash bags…”) versus changing your mind on a important decision or usurping your authority (“Are you really sure about that…? I don’t think that’s a good idea…”). Is this, perhaps, what you have in mind?

  30. Julian O'Dea

    Yes. In a funny way, it is kind of flattering. You can seen the little girly cogs in her brain going, “whirr, whirr … how I can keep him happy but get a little of what I want?”

    Like how she “accidentally” lets the dogs out, and then “has to” put them in the car, and then they need their leads, and then, “Why don’t we take the dogs for a drive and a walk?”

  31. Patrick Irish

    I took some ballroom dancing lessons back in the late 90s and had to dance the woman’s position while my instructor danced the man’s a few times. I could not help but backlead. After I got his steps down and started dancing my actual position (lead) as a man with women dancers, I saw that they backlead as well. Our instructor told us that everyone backleads at first because we are so conscious of our posture. Heads up, shoulders back, eyes forward is the way we are either purposely taught by our parents to walk as a child or is the way we emulate others walking as a child. Then in gym class more awareness of our posture in running, swimming, sports, etc. So this rigid posture thing is very hard to get rid of. We very rarely just relax, let go and kind of float, which is what is necessary for the woman’s position in ballroom dancing. And that’s emptying the mind helps as well. We can’t float if our mind is thinking.

  32. sunshinemary Post author

    Ah, yes Julian. I meant manipulation in order to get her way because she doesn’t really trust her husband.

    There is a bit of flirtatious manipulation…which both the man and woman can see happening, so presumably they’re okay with it. Usually it’s like a wink-wink, eye-flutter kind of thing and is rather fun.

  33. alphabetasoup

    I tease my wife all the time for her “herding” me to bed. She will slowly began turning the lights off around the house until the only usable light is in the bedroom. This kind of backleading is perfectly acceptable.

  34. Julian O'Dea

    Yes, alphabetasoup, that is what I mean.

    If the intent is neutral or even for the husband’s good, that is fine.

    It is only the undermining of serious decisions already reached which is very corrosive of a good relationship.

  35. sunshinemary Post author

    I tease my wife all the time for her “herding” me to bed. She will slowly began turning the lights off around the house until the only usable light is in the bedroom. This kind of backleading is perfectly acceptable.

    LOL, I do something similar.

    And in particular, I think, when it comes to initiating sex, women often don’t like to be direct about that sort of thing. Better to plant the seed in his mind so that he initiates, or at least so that you can both maintain the polite fiction that he initiated when really it was you.

    Example: sigh “I’m not very sleepy. Are you sleepy?” (nudging him awake) “You’re not sleeping yet, are you?” *innocent eye flutter*

  36. alphabetasoup

    I think the little suggestions like this are actually quite positive. What is more unromantic than a utilitarian and straightforward conversation about thing like this?

    When my wife does this she is demonstrating to me that she is paying attention and has me in mind. And she is doing it in a personal and familiar way which is much more romantic than “Hey you wanna have sex?”

  37. Random Angeleno

    I dance salsa and some ballroom for fun. I notice backleading once in awhile. Most of the time, it’s obvious that the girl is a real beginner at dancing so I just tell her to relax, let your partner lead, that part of learning to dance for women is learning to follow. But once in awhile, I run into a Strong Independent Woman (TM) who is obviously skilled yet insists on her own moves. I warn her to relax and follow one time, usually they do so, but there is still that rare occasion when she will keep resisting my lead. At that point, I don’t care anymore, I just muscle her to the end of the song, then I write her off forever. Don’t care how hot she is, she can never ever have another dance with me, let alone a date. My leads must be decent as this is a bit rare in my experience. Salsa requires an active lead to look good and the best female salsa teachers are about not only training guys in steps, but also training them to lead. That is one thing I’ve noticed about every good female salsa teacher: they like being led by a good dancer, brings out the femininity in them.

    Dancing girls, take note, letting your partner lead is always attractive to men. If you are a good and fun partner to dance with, you might even get him to dance with you again…

  38. alphabetasoup

    On the serious side of this conversation though, this is a problem that has to be vetted early on. I have counseled many of my male friends to directly and arbitrarily contradict their prospective partners, so they can observe her response. It will give you much of the information you need to assess her submissiveness. Whether it be on simple things as to where you will eat dinner, or something more serious like where you will be spending the holidays, men need to see her instinctual responses to headship.

  39. allamagoosa

    @ nsr
    She yelled at you?

    Mmm. Did you wash out her mouth with soap after that? (sorry Alla, but it’s for your own good, darling. Hebrews 12:11 and all that.)

    No, he didn’t, because he thought it was hilarious. It also wasn’t mean spirited or argumentative, I was trying to help him understand the movements of a certain dance and had to raise my voice to be heard. I probably had a big, stupid grin on my face too.

    Also, if I ever did start legitimately yelling at him, his hand fits over almost my entire face, so I wouldn’t be able yell for very long. I once joked with him that if I ever throw a temper tantrum he could just tuck me under one arm and carry on with whatever he was doing until I calm down.


    [ssm: Cute. :)

    I love it that you guys square dance.]

  40. Janet

    “And I’d be remiss if I didn’t communicate to women that backleading is very unattractive to men.”

    “Dancing girls, take note, letting your partner lead is always attractive to men.”

    I take ballroom dancing classes and I don’t want to be “attractive” to any of the men there. And I’m certainly not attracted to them! I’m there to learn a skill, nothing else. I already have a husband and he’s the only man I want to attract and be attracted to.

  41. Julian O'Dea

    alphabetasoup

    There are plenty of “tells” and they show up early in a relationship if you are planning on marriage. Of course women can change, and a girl can be very submissive for a while and then become stubborn and frankly impossible later. A good argument for longer engagements.

    I agree that arbitrary contradiction can be worth trying. A woman might hopefully simply accept this. If there is a good ostensible reason, that is best.

    Watch how she reacts to films and TV. That can be telling. Does she editorialise with feminist comments?

    I could write a list of positives and negatives. But I have said a lot of this before.

  42. alphabetasoup

    I have often wondered if it was always this complicated. I can see such a stark and tragic decline in society even between my generation(Gen X) and the one after me. My generation was never taught to discern a persons character or to build thier own. We were taught to accept, and understand and “live and let live” and “if it feels good, do it” Of course this left society hollow and disconnected. There were no rules to follow and all advice is suspect because, in thier view, there are no right or wrong answers. It has left everyone wandering around in the dark.

    It is no wonder that so many have gotten burned or floundered in marriage. It is hard even in good circumstances. I fear that as a society we have lost the glue that holds us together. Like the saying says”As the family goes, so goes the nation”. God help us all if this holds true.

  43. Julian O'Dea

    Marriage is really hard. It brings rewards but it is not easy for husband or wife. I think a lot of men underestimate the sheer amount of work and skill that good “husbanding” takes. Feminists have so oversold the idea that it is easy for men, that many men have come to believe that. It is not. Men who think they can coast are in for a shock.

    All a man can do is choose the best woman he can, do his best to keep her like that, and hope for the best.

  44. alphabetasoup

    “All a man can do is choose the best woman he can, do his best to keep her like that, and hope for the best”
    I agree completely, but as this blog testifies, this is nearly impossible these days. The lines are too blurred, and the defintions are too vague to be of use. What is the “best” ? What can he do to keep her that way? What example do they have to emulate? Why should they listen to others?

    This sounds an awful lot like MGTOW, but it isnt that simple. By men checking out of society they are only capitulating. That is not an option for me. It goes against my manly nature.

    My generation has found itself in quite the pickle. They have seen thier parents generation cast off the old ways and have seen its wreckage, but now has to construct something in its place. Unfortunately there are precious few tools in the tool box.

  45. dannyfrom504

    and it’s VERY easy to notice a woman doing this once you’ve gone red-pill. i notice this, and i’ll reaffirm my captain status. if it continues, i’ll bail.

  46. Norm

    While we are on ballroom dancing. Here is a video from Paul McCartney;s 1984 film, Give My Regards To Broadstreet. Slightly different from the 1982 version. It still has the line “Ballroom Dancing, made a man of me”. If you don’t take the lead it won’t.

  47. Julian O'Dea

    alphabetasoup

    The basic principle is not hard. It is hard to put in words, but for some reason the personal motto of Panzer General Guderian comes to mind, “Nicht kleckern, sondern klotzen”. If you strike, strike hard. It is far better to overdo the manliness or machismo than to underdo it.

    Women respond to a bit of “shock and awe”. Very well. If you can convince a woman that you are The Man, it is a lesson that is liable to stick.

    Most men need to learn this lesson. Things were slightly better in my day, but not much. I got some Blue Pill advice, although there was plenty of Red Pill around then too.

    Very few women will admit these truths. But the assertive approach works. I am not naturally like that. I just had to learn to be.

    One caveat. I believe that we all have our natural level. Some women will always be too much woman for a particular man. If you try being assertive, and a girl tells you to take a hike, and she means it, there is no future for you with her. Another, harder, man might do well with her though.

    The other point is that almost ALL the advice men get these days is bad. I am sorry to say that the best advice I ever heard was uttered by a half-drunk bloke (a kind of frat guy type to put it in American terms) whom I once overheard say “treat em mean to keep em keen”. There is more truth in that dictum than in a hundred modern magazine articles on relationships.

  48. alphabetasoup

    Well maybe the take away from all of this will be that it separates the men from the boys. I dont suppose it is ever a bad thing to ask a man to step up his game. If there is one thing I will strive to teach my boys is that no matter what, they need to be indomitable. That is ,I believe, the quintessential male characteristic. It just takes a whole lot more effort to pull it off well these days.

  49. MrWombat

    Where on earth, where on earth did women get the notion that “feisty” was an attractive quality?

  50. Ton

    No one should advocate a man marry unless they are willing to pay his alimony, child support, lawyer fees, help recoup the assets he losses etc etc.

    If you’re unwilling to pay you’re feeding men into the grinder while accepting no responsibilities for the havoc your create. Much like congress or the WW 1 generals who feed waves of bodies into machine gun fire that they themselves never faced

    [ssm: Please show me where I advocated any man to marry? If you cannot do that, then please stop proselytizing here. I mean that respectfully, but also quite seriously.]

  51. sunshinemary Post author

    A little spirit is fine, but unfortunately “feisty” usually just means difficult.

    Along those same lines, some modern women seem to think that being feisty and difficult is the same as being “strong” (and even more bizarrely, that men are somehow attracted to “strong” women). Here are some snippets from an essay by Grerp on that topic:

    It’s been a ubiquitous fiction lo these last few decades that loud, obnoxious, know-it-all women are the strong ones, the brave ones, the ones who blaze the path, the ones who “tell it like it is.” Their brittle, oft off-putting personalities are evidence of their inner strength [...] It is not particularly brave to push yourself, your wants and needs and opinions in the faces of other people. It is selfish [...] Don’t fool yourself that obnoxious behavior is strength. Consistent kindness, responsibility, consideration, and hard work are traits of strength.

    From: Do not confuse being difficult with being strong

  52. Elspeth

    Thank you for the linkage Sunshine, as always.

    I would bet you upwards of 60-70% of Christian women pay lip service to submission.

    I don’t think so. I encounter very few that do and of those, most are very open about the fact that they kow they should but can’t bring themselves to do so,

  53. Rollo Tomassi

    Actually I think I topping from the bottom is a more accurate term.

    Backleading at least implies that there might be some genuine doubt as to who is leading at any given moment.

    When that ‘topped from the bottom’ Dom understands he’s really the Sub “playing the role” of the Dom that his dominant partner really wants him to be, and he dutifully and pitifully goes along with it, that’s a whole different level of submission.

    Most Beta marriages go more along these lines. The husband plays the role of the Dom she casts him as rather than there being any real doubt that he might actually have a genuine opportunity to lead.

    This is the degree to which women need to go to quiet the voice of hypergamy in their quest for a sustainable sense of security:
    http://therationalmale.com/2013/11/25/nursing-power/

    LT is correct, women don’t want to eliminate men, they simply want to control them, both directly and indirectly, socially and personally, subtly and subconsciously as well as overtly when necessary, to comply with satisfying their innate hypergamy. They want independence from men’s influence in the process of satisfying hypergamy – they want to rig the game by replacing his genuine desires by forcing him to comply with her control of his conditions. Women want the power to control men’s desires, their ideologies, their sexual response, their individualism and the decisions that result from them all in order to optimize hypergamy

  54. Farm Boy

    Where on earth, where on earth did women get the notion that “feisty” was an attractive quality?

    From the same people who brought you “rape culture”.

    Reality is optional.

  55. Farm Boy

    It’s been a ubiquitous fiction lo these last few decades that loud, obnoxious, know-it-all women are the strong ones, the brave ones

    In many ways this is similar to a guy taking the easy route of being a thug rather than developing his skills.

    Except that a woman doing this is not attractive like a thug might be.

  56. Farm Boy

    in order to optimize hypergamy

    Controlling men to optimize hypergamy? Perhaps they cannot see the contradiction.

    Controlling men for the sake of resources might work better.

  57. ballista74

    Time to tell a little story…

    A man once had a dog. It was a very nice animal and a very nice pet. The man named it “Dog”. It may be a strange name for most to call a dog, but a very apt name. He brought it everywhere with him, and it ended up being a very wonderful companion for him. Unfortunately, as all things go, the dog died. It left a huge hole in his life for animal companionship, as it went everywhere with him for a lot of time. So he got another animal. He loved the name, so it called it “Dog”. When he walked around with it, people noticed his new companion, saying “nice cat”. It meowed, not barked. But, no, he would reply. It’s “Dog”.

    Whoever has ears, let them ear….Whoever has eyes, let them see…

  58. Farm Boy

    I don’t understand what all this focus on submission is, and why some women insist on being the boss

    The logical conclusion of shit testing, this is.

  59. feeriker

    Women: let go of passive rebellion and manipulative backleading.

    Not a chance. The rare exceptions aside, women will either actively seek domination of the relationship, or, among those few that Elspeth mentions upthread who admit that the practice is both wrong and ultimately destructive to the relationship, is so intoxicating and exhilarating and creates such a feeling of empowerment that they become hopelessly addicted to it.

  60. Farm Boy

    they need to be indomitable. That is ,I believe, the quintessential male characteristic. It just takes a whole lot more effort to pull it off well these days.

    Is it worth it from his or society’s perspective?

    He wants to capture a modern rebellious woman. Not appealling. NAWALT

    Society wants his energies put into being productive, not indomitable.

    He loses, society loses.

  61. Farm Boy

    creates such a feeling of empowerment that they become hopelessly addicted to it.

    Let these women be empowered in their awesome jobs. Let them not poison relationships.

  62. sunshinemary Post author

    Backleading at least implies that there might be some genuine doubt as to who is leading at any given moment.

    When that ‘topped from the bottom’ Dom understands he’s really the Sub “playing the role” of the Dom that his dominant partner really wants him to be, and he dutifully and pitifully goes along with it, that’s a whole different level of submission.

    Yes, I think you’ve explained the general situation in Churchian circles – at least the ones who still give even lip service to headship and submission.

    But I think backleading is still the right word for what I’m trying to get at here; those of us who are really trying to live out the proper marital hierarchy are attempting to do so in the face of total cultural ridicule and hostility even from much of the Church. We have no help and no support and are prone to messing this thing up inadvertently; I know I’ve tried doing this backleading thing, and it’s much harder for my husband to pick up on it and call me out for it because it’s so subtle and covert. I’m addressing this post to women who I assume have good intentions in this area but who need to learn to guard against this dynamic.

  63. feeriker

    Let these women be empowered in their awesome jobs.

    No, no, NO – unless their “jobs” are in all-female organizations. Otherwise, the result will be just as much destruction as occurs within their relationships.

  64. Stingray

    Thank you for the link, Sunshine!

    We have no help and no support and are prone to messing this thing up inadvertently; I know I’ve tried doing this backleading thing, and it’s much harder for my husband to pick up on it and call me out for it because it’s so subtle and covert.

    Yes! I think it is as Deep Strength said above. It comes from the heart. Feminine wiles and backleading are two different things. However, they are similar enough that it is so very easy to rationalize in one’s mind that “I’m doing this for his own good! My heart is in the right place” when in reality the wife is just trying to connive something selfishly out of her husband. I know I’ve been very guilty of this in the past and will have to guard against it till the day I die. The same action can come from two very different places and a wife needs to figure out where she is coming from.

  65. Jenny

    I don’t really understand why women want to be empowered or even what it really is. Sounds a lot like wanting power and respect without earning it or taking any responsibility. x

  66. Rollo Tomassi

    @SSM, I wonder who’s worse off, men in a constant power struggle with their wives, who think they might be leading, or the powerless man who knowingly plays the dominant role his wife wants him to play at her convenience but overtly knows he’s not leading?

  67. Farm Boy

    I don’t really understand why women want to be empowered

    Not “empowering” oneself is normally a good deal for the lady, as long as she can find a fella. Less tension for everybody, a more natural role, etc. What is not to like?

    The problem with the empowerment addiction is that it takes larger and larger hits to have the same effect. Which really plays havoc with those around her.

  68. sunshinemary Post author

    I don’t really understand why women want to be empowered or even what it really is.

    You know, that interests me.

    Ladies – what does empowerment mean to you? Have you ever wanted to be empowered?

    When I was much younger, because I grew up in fairly significant financial instability, empowerment to me meant financial stability – not being wealthy, but just being comfortable and stable. I wanted that kind of empowerment, which is why I went to college and graduate school and worked as a teacher and speech-language pathologist.

    But nothing about that empowerment precluded marriage. I always wanted to be married and have never regretted it. In fact, being married increased my ability to have financial stability, so I would say that my husband provided some of my empowerment.

  69. sunshinemary Post author

    I wonder who’s worse off, men in a constant power struggle with their wives, who think they might be leading, or the powerless man who knowingly plays the dominant role his wife wants him to play at her convenience but overtly knows he’s not leading?

    From a woman’s point of view, the second man is contempt-worthy. Sorry, that’s harsh, but it’s my gut reaction. The first man isn’t contempt-worthy, but his wife needs guidance.

    From a man’s point of view, which is worse? Being in a power struggle or being a lap dog who is trained to perform amusing tricks?

  70. Farm Boy

    As a guy, I have no compelling need to feel empowered. Perhaps it is because as I was growing up I learned that if I wanted something, I had to make it happen.

  71. bike bubba

    I’m reminded of a few things, starting with “The Taming of the Shrew”, a play I had the pleasure of reading recently. (we were dealing with a willful young lady in youth group; sadly for her, her Petruchio has not come for her yet) I’m also reminded of how I’ve come to view social dancing not as a vice or invitation to sin, but as a wonderful application of Biblical principles of headship.

    And finally, the phrase “backleading” reminds me of our Dear Leader’s diplomatic strategy of “leading from behind.” There are all kinds of conclusions that one could make from this, most of which are probably inappropriate for a family blog like this. :^)

  72. Pingback: She Submits as She Dominates

  73. feeriker

    From a man’s point of view, which is worse? Being in a power struggle or being a lap dog who is trained to perform amusing tricks?

    That’s akin to asking whether slow death from pancreatic cancer is worse than slow death from ALS.

  74. Cautiously Pessimistic

    @ssm – “… it’s much harder for my husband to pick up on it and call me out for it because it’s so subtle and covert.

    My own experience has been that it’s not difficult to pick up on it. It’s difficult to effectively call her on it because there’s so much plausible deniability surrounding it. Frequently, I won’t call her on something until it becomes overt enough to not be easily denied. Give her enough rope to hang herself, and all that. That’s assuming I can’t lead her away from the problem without having to call her on it outright.

    The point being, just because your husband doesn’t call you on something doesn’t mean he hasn’t picked up on it.

    [ssm: Ah, this is why I appreciate having men comment here. I would not have known this had you not told me. I wonder if my husband has been able to detect it when I've tried to backlead? But I don't think I've always been aware that I was doing it. Hopefully it isn't something I'm doing a lot of at this point, anyway.]

  75. Elspeth

    My own experience has been that it’s not difficult to pick up on it. It’s difficult to effectively call her on it because there’s so much plausible deniability surrounding it.

    I agree. My husband usually just says it, without bothering to figure out if there will be any attempt at plausible deniability:

    “Don’t try to manipulate me. It is the fastest way to not get what you want. Be straight, or be quiet.”

    Ouch.

  76. Jenny

    Empowerment isn’t a word that really exists in my own little world – it certainly isn’t one that I have ever used other than in these comments. It has never been something that I have thought about. I guess I have never been one to go out and fight to prove myself and have never been competitive.

    I like stability (I am not one for risk taking!) but I wouldn’t think of that as empowerment. I like having a little financial buffer but I worked and saved to have that but am aware that it wouldn’t have been possible without my parents and their support of me. x

  77. Ton

    You are not SSM, but others are… like.the call for men to be indomitable regarding women. Yes a man should be indomitable, but remain single.

    [ssm: Thank you for clarifying.]

  78. Rollo Tomassi

    I disagree. The pseudo-Dom, while contemptible, at least knows the reality of his position, the backled man thinks he holds power when he doesn’t or is only ‘allowed’ a measure of power as is convenient to the woman who ‘permits’ it.

    Aunt Giggles is actually the queen mother of this type of power distribution. She wants to build a better Beta; one who will comply with her frame but only be Alpha when the situation warrants. Or like Kate, who wants a “Beta with a side of Alpha”:
    http://therationalmale.com/2012/10/02/up-the-alpha/

    Up the Alpha

    I’ve written this before, but it bears repeating: for men wanting to change their lives and relationships, working up from Beta to Alpha is a far tougher road to hoe that tempering Alpha dominance with a personalized touch of Beta. As bad as Hugo Schwyzer is in his abject feminization, have a read of a few of the female commenters in this article. How many of the simpering, socially conditioned, Betatized men these women seeth about would make for believable Alphas once they had a red pill epiphany? It is precisely because of this impressionistic, binary solipsism that women will never be happy with ‘fixing’ their Beta. This is why he has to Just Get It on his own.

    It is a far better proposition to impress a woman with an organic Alpha dominance – Alpha can only be a man’s dominant personality origin. There is no Beta with a side of Alpha because that side of Alpha is NEVER believable when your overall perception is one of being Beta to begin with. This is why I stress Alpha traits above all else. It’s easy, and endearing to ‘reveal’ a flash of Beta sensitivity when a woman perceives you as predominantly Alpha. If your personality is predominantly Beta, any sporadic flashes of Alpha will seem like emotional tantrums at best, character flaws at worst.

    Women may love the Beta, but they only respect the Alpha.

  79. Cail Corishev

    And because she doesn’t know where her stress and anxiety is coming from (being in the lead) she will be highly convinced she does have a real chemical imbalance and a real need for drugs to help her. (I have someone specific in mind who is on a cocktail of SSRI’s – outside looking in, it seems obvious what the problem is, she’s not designed to be leading the way she is but she’s convinced he’s making the decisions.) — Sarah’s Daughter

    I’m seeing the same thing in single women hitting their 30s. Not having a man at all (at least not a permanent one), she’s in the lead in her personal life all the time, and after a while it makes her batty. When she does meet a man she likes, she’s so used to making all the decisions that one of two things happens: she dominates the relationship completely, so that it’s unhealthy right from the start and sure to turn unsatisfying for her; or she goes to the other extreme and throws herself at him, submitting completely without vetting him for virtuous leadership first, which rarely works out.

    Personally, I don’t understand what all this focus on submission is, and why some women insist on being the boss. If you trust and love the guy, then she should also trust that he’s going to do the right thing. — Jana

    Ah, but that’s not really what it’s about. No guy will always do the right thing, so to trust in that would be foolish. The best you can hope for is that he’ll usually do the right thing, but that’s why so many women want to hold onto veto power: “I trust that he’ll usually do the right thing, so I’m fine with following his lead then; but I’m intelligent too, so why shouldn’t I step in and take charge on those occasions when he slips up?” If it’s about “doing the right thing,” that makes perfect sense — two heads better than one.

    At best, she becomes like the doctor on a ship on Star Trek: perfectly obedient to the captain and the chain of command day after day for years, until one day the captain does something she thinks is wrong, and out comes the, “For the sake of the safety of this crew, I declare you incapable of leadership and hereby take command of this vessel.”

    Submission is about how you act when he does the wrong thing. I’m not trying to drag up the “what if he commands me to sin” argument here, so let’s stick to something mundane, like he insists on buying a house you think you can’t afford. That’s when you’ll see the difference between agreement and submission.

  80. Nimdok

    Hello, SM.

    I have recently read some of your articles and while I find what most women write to be painful to read, your writings have been quite pleasant to see. I have come to ask you this question:

    What do you think a wife has to offer her husband?

    That question may sound like it has a condescending tone, but in truth it is geniunely asked out of curiosity. I have asked the same question in other circles and haven’t gotten much beyond “love, romance, companionship”. The question is an important one for me, since I am a Muslim, and it seems to me that my religion puts more weight into marriage than Christianity does (I could be wrong since I’ve yet to substantially study your religion).

    Here is what I can think up on my own:

    Domestic assistance: A wife can make his husband’s life easier by cooking, cleaning, and in general taking care of him. However, as it happens the ever-increasing methods for domestic automation benefit men as well, and assuming a man can effeciently look after himself, and network a few close friends for emergencies, it may not be worth it to trade away the tranquility of his home for a few extra hours per week.

    Child(ren): This seems to be the most important reason for getting a wife, to set up a nuclear family. As much as an important goal that is, I think it would just as rewarding in a religious context, if not more, to take care of some of the countless orphans who need proper guidance and sustenance. Not that many people would have any of this kind of thinking because of the evolutionary obsession with spreading one’s own genes.

    Sex: Women are able to enjoy it to a far greater extent than any man ever could, not to mention that they *need* it to maintain an adequate amount of sanity. A man’s pleasure is fleeting in comparison, so this is really a symbiotic exchange rather than an *offer* on the wife’s part. Of course, I won’t include the power plays that often take place in and around of the act which can make it more of a headache than pleasure for men.

    Love: Whether or not a man believes on this falsity depends on how much he knows about the nature of women, and how sentimental he is. “A woman loves not for love, but for sake of being loved”. Not that I believe a man’s love is any more profound than that of women’s, but that is beside the point.
    I don’t think there is nearly enough “loveable” women out there for men to adequately benefit from this kind of self-delusion.

    So I have to ask… “Is that it?” Now, in the past, the threats associated with not having a *Man* were a lot more immediate, so women had to become “ladylike” which made them a valuable asset for the most part. Now that they no longer have to thanks to our secular culture which is hellbent on controlling men with monstrous laws, and turning women into insecure harpies who can’t be pleased, it no longer seems worthwhile for a man to deal with a wife. Especially not under a legal marriage, though a religious marriage and cohabitation can be just as dangerous.

    Before I post this, I want to ask one more thing. Why do you think Islam is a false religion? I have no intention to start an argument over this, as I only want to read your rationale for it.

  81. Cail Corishev

    Another thought on what I was saying about single women getting used to being dominant and not able to give up control: it’s been interesting to watch the reaction of some women I know since I set some strict limits and no longer accept bad behavior. Most don’t seem to have it in them to own up to anything and just apologize, which would make it possible to deal with it and move on. But they still want my attention and approval, so they look for other ways to get it, sometimes coming up with schemes that seem like a heck of a lot more trouble than just saying, “Sorry, I screwed up. It won’t happen again.” Anything to avoid showing any vulnerability or giving up even a tiny bit of control.

  82. Matthew King

    This criticism is off-base. “Backleading” is not a “rebellion” but rather the height of femininity. The key word is “passive.” A woman effects her will passively, and when she does it is just about the most attractive thing she can do.

    There is a reason it is called back-leading and not plain-old “taking the lead.” She exerts her influence in a feminine way without usurping the direct and active leadership that men are best at. Leading from behind is right and proper to any woman.

    Submission is not slavery. Man and woman is not master and subject (though many items of that metaphor are useful), nor simple superior and inferior. That would require like kinds, traits in common but in unequal amounts; not complementarity. Man and woman is Captain/Executive Officer.

    When the woman is the more experienced dancer, backleading is the appropriate way to complete the dance without showing the man up. Dancing requires male leadership, therefore experienced dancers know that the woman taking the lead would be disastrous to the form. Women lead all the time, but indirectness is required to retain their femininity.

    Matt

  83. bike bubba

    Janet’s comment about not wanting to be attractive to any of the men in her ballroom dancing class suggests the question of, well, why she didn’t bring her partner with her? Maybe I’m just a mouth breathing neanderthal or something, but Mrs. Bubba and I just don’t get the attraction of couples dancing unless one’s spouse is involved.

    And, for that matter, even for those who think differently, there is a parallel question of whether one is learning to dance properly if one is not willing to be attractive to another person. It would seem to detract from the beauty of real dancing.

  84. Stingray

    Women lead all the time, but indirectness is required to retain their femininity.

    There are two ways to go about this. Her *backleading*, (I prefer the use of wiles here, just to show the difference) in this sense is done because she wishes to do what is best for her husband and for their marriage. What Sunshine is talking about here is not done with that in mind. It is done with the sense of her taking the lead, for the sole sake of leading, through manipulation. She is doing it for a sense of power rather than with the humility required to do what you are saying for the best of all involved.

    The women who use their wiles to help where the husband might be lacking will know when it is time to let go of that lead because their husband now has the knowledge for it and they will let go. And she will trust him in that lead. These women who back lead as Sunshine is talking about have no interest in letting go and will continue to lead from the bottom up.

  85. Cail Corishev

    Where on earth, where on earth did women get the notion that “feisty” was an attractive quality?

    TV. The problem with that is, the feisty women on TV whom men find attractive are:

    1) Extremely hot in the first place, so they’d be attractive reading the phone book in a monotone (and far more attractive wearing an apron and holding a tray of cookies).

    2) Feisty for 30-60 minutes a week, at a distance. Something that’s attractive in small doses in certain contexts may be extremely tiresome when it’s in your face every day at the breakfast table.

  86. Looking Glass

    @feeriker:

    ALS is better. You slowly lose more total ability, but you’ll be in a lot less pain and you don’t have to go through Chemo. There’s also some hope for ALS treatments around, whereas for most Pancreatic Cancers, you’re pretty toast unless you’re a biochemistry Whiz.

  87. Rollo Tomassi

    I’m seeing the same thing in single women hitting their 30s. Not having a man at all (at least not a permanent one), she’s in the lead in her personal life all the time, and after a while it makes her batty. When she does meet a man she likes, she’s so used to making all the decisions that one of two things happens: she dominates the relationship completely, so that it’s unhealthy right from the start and sure to turn unsatisfying for her; or she goes to the other extreme and throws herself at him, submitting completely without vetting him for virtuous leadership first, which rarely works out.

    I gotta agree with this, and since SSM loves cute personal stories I’ll give you one about this.

    When I first started dating Mrs. Tomassi in the mid-90’s one thing that threw me for a loop about her was that she insisted I drive the car to wherever it was we were going. The first few dates were in my truck so it didn’t really impact me until we were going to use her car to go somewhere and she handed me the keys to her car.

    She expected me to be the driver then and it’s been that way ever since. In my red pill Game-awareness of today I can appreciate the significance of that, but you have to understand that in my then blue-pill ignorance I was kind of shocked that she insist I drive the car she owned and insured. Until then I had never had any previous woman even so much as consider I drive her car – the presumption was always “her car, she drives me, my car, I drive her.”

    As Cail pointed out, at a certain point a woman gets so used to making all the decisions that it’s automatically the frame she enters into an LTR with, but you also have to consider that men are preconditioned for a default blue-pill presumption of equalism (which really translates to feminine social primacy) and wouldn’t presume to challenge her dominant-but-equalist frame.

  88. Matthew King

    Mr. Badger writes:

    I can however confirm the not-uncommon habit of women backleading, many times unapologetically or with a coy sort of “sometimes I backlead, teehee.” And I’d be remiss if I didn’t communicate to women that backleading is very unattractive to men.

    I don’t get this. I like a woman who shit-tests men with her attempts to upstage their masculinity. It makes her breaking all the more satisfying. “Very” unattractive? Maybe if one is insecure in his leadership abilities.

    Would some teeheeing ditz even try to lead Gene Kelly or Fred Astaire?

    Backleading is for keeping the normal male-dominant dance-flow despite a disparity in dancing talent or the burden of betamale followership/weakness. Remaining graceful and feminine while passively leading is a high womanly art, few can do it well. She hints at where he must lead them, she does not cut out the middleman and lead them herself.

    The giggling feminists do not know what they’re talking about when they say “backleading.” They aren’t saying “sometimes I backlead” so much as they are (passive aggressively!) attempting to conceal their usurpation, which no feminine woman is truly comfortable accomplishing. Their rebellion is better rendered as, “Sometimes I attempt to lead hoping you are strong enough to put me in my place.”

    Matt

  89. Elspeth

    There are two ways to go about this. Her *backleading*, (I prefer the use of wiles here, just to show the difference) in this sense is done because she wishes to do what is best for her husband and for their marriage. What Sunshine is talking about here is not done with that in mind. It is done with the sense of her taking the lead, for the sole sake of leading, through manipulation. She is doing it for a sense of power rather than with the humility required to do what you are saying for the best of all involved.

    Abigail vs. Jezebel.

    [ssm: Good example.]

  90. Matthew King

    Mrs. Maritus wrote:

    There are two ways to go about this. Her *backleading*, (I prefer the use of wiles here, just to show the difference) in this sense is done because she wishes to do what is best for her husband and for their marriage. What Sunshine is talking about here is not done with that in mind.

    Acknowledged. In our culture, where the balance of the sexes is extremely off-kilter and even twisted, one is tempted to over-correct the masculinization of women by weighing heavily back toward the extreme on the far side of the golden mean.

    Remember, virtue is not the opposite of a single, controlling vice. It is the temperantia or moderation or median between two extreme opposites.

    Manliness is the mean between passivity and recklessness. Therefore, in a world of passive men, one is tempted to promote recklessness in correction.

    Femininity is the mean between willfulness and slavery. Therefore, in a world of willful women, one is tempted to promote slavishness in correction.

    But we here are engaged in advanced graduate studies. We are very familiar with the tragic imbalance of the sexual dynamic brought on by feminism in ways outside communities aren’t. We can speak of the strength of women without risking our bona fides (though to some unsubtle “manosphere” thinkers, any slight dissent is evidence of manginery).

    Mrs. Sunshine Mary wrote:

    There is a bit of flirtatious manipulation… which both the man and woman can see happening, so presumably they’re okay with it. Usually it’s like a wink-wink, eye-flutter kind of thing and is rather fun.

    This is everything. This is the art of romantic love. A woman is being directed by a man she trusts; a man is being manipulated (Stingray’s “wiles”) by a woman he trusts, all for the greater good of the couple. The combination of active and passive becomes an energized synthesis. This is the breathless complementarity that poets dream about but can only poorly describe. You do what you do best, I do what I do best, our strengths dovetail, and we become one flesh, greater than the sum of our parts.

    At the very highest level, there isn’t even any “wink-wink[ing].” It is a simple: Here, I trust you with my life in this area. Do what you are made to do best. The exhilaration of that mutual acknowledgment and mutual submission is the apogee of human cooperation, so high that it is sacramental.

    The woman submits to the man’s will. The man submits to the woman’s wile.

    We can talk about this stuff without risking upvotes from Feministing and Jezebel.com. In fact, their imbalanced misinterpretation of female strength is at the heart of our enmity with those women who shaped their lives on a lie.

    When we learn to pity those misled women, rather than lowering ourselves to their level and battling them, they will be better disposed to see the truth.

    Truthtellers, do not stoop to conquer. Believe in the magnetism of our product. Veritas sells itself.

    Matt

  91. Jana

    @ Cail

    Well, that makes no sense. If the guy wants to buy a house that they can’t afford without having a good reason and risks bankruptcy, then I think the woman should say something and try to change his mind.

    Also, why would a woman just blindly agree to everything, even though she knows it’ll turn out badly? Just to boost his ego?

  92. Alex deN

    “I once joked with him that if I ever throw a temper tantrum he could just tuck me under one arm and carry on with whatever he was doing until I calm down.”

    Actually, this joke leads to an essential concept. It really is not possible for a man to lead, if he does not lead from above. He cannot be her rock, if he brings himself down to her level, if he acts like those parents who have screaming debates with their children.

    The key is for him to be in control of himself, to be firm* and possibly even gentle. This is not to say that she should not see his anger, but that he must bring himself back under control before he takes any action. Fearing his power can make it easier for a woman to submit, but fearing his immaturity or irrationality can make it impossible.

    One time we were at a gathering, and when it was time to leave for the long drive back, my woman really, really did not want to leave. She was being childishly obstinate but not disrespectful in an intentional way, so I just tickled her until she let go of the table, picked her up backwards out of her chair, put her over my shoulder, and said my goodbyes to the hosts as I carried her out of there. She started giggling when I smacked her butt and, by the time we got to the car, she had decided that she was quite happy about the way everything had turned out.

    * The point is for the man to be certain, in his own mind, that he will not back down regardless of what she does, and that he will thus prevail. That mindset makes it easy for him to relax and interact with her from a position of strength and leadership. The man who allows his emotions and anger to take over is actually treating her as his equal, and is often thinking “please stop resisting, please stop resisting”, because he has allowed for the possibility that he might have to give up.

    [ssm: And you handled the situation firmly, with resolve, and look how it turned out - she ended up happy and smiling. Honestly, I think we really do want to obey, but that rebellious streak flares now and again...]

  93. Cautiously Pessimistic

    @rollo- “… one thing that threw me for a loop about her was that she insisted I drive the car to wherever it was we were going.

    This was an issue for me, too, though she didn’t insist I drive. I had your assumptions that if it was my car, I drove; her car, she drove. Add to this that I don’t like driving, so we would take her car most of the time. I didn’t think anything of it until I started reading red pill type sites. I ended up changing a great deal in a short amount of time when going red pill, and one of those things was that I NEVER let her drive me unless I’m incapacitated. Since so much of my other behaviors changed at the same time, I have no idea what kind of effect that one change had, but I get the sense that it’s definitely been a change for the better.

    Which annoys me. I still hate driving.

    [ssm: LOL, good job on doing the hard thing that needed to be done, then! Lucky for me, my husband generally prefers driving. He's only made me drive once, when I mouthed off to him about the route he had chosen. I never made that mistake again.]

  94. feeriker

    @Looking Glass:

    Thanks, but I’ll pass on both (the diseases AND being either of the two types of men mentioned in the original question).

  95. Cail Corishev

    Jana, I’m not saying she shouldn’t offer her opinion (which is all it would be, since she can’t know he’s wrong) or try to change his mind, within the scriptural framework of being humble and virtuous. If I’m impressed enough with a woman to marry her, I want her opinion on things. But if she does that and he still wants to buy the house, she has to go along with it and be as supportive as she can, which includes not mocking him to his face — or even worse, in front of others — if it doesn’t work out.

    Anything else is not submission. It might be many people’s idea of proper marriage today, but it’s not submission.

  96. Future Post Request.

    “I am very wary of women who speak of submission who have not been married more than ten years.”

    I would love to read a whole post on this with specific examples, and how men might correct the situation. Please!

  97. Alex deN

    SSM: “Several years ago someone pointed me toward a site called Taken In Hand, but after browsing through a handful of articles, I was like, ‘What is all this consensual non-consent nonsense?’ There’s no draw for me in that; I’m interested in a functional, biblical marriage, which is why I am interested in the Captain/First Officer dynamic.”

    Consensual non-consent can be viewed as a somewhat analogous secular version of your ongoing consent to be brought under the authority of your religion, through your faith and by your husband, even though you may sometimes be “non-consenting” about some particular rule. It represents their higher authority that they depend on to keep them secure, stable and happy.

    MK: “I don’t get this. I like a woman who shit-tests men with her attempts to upstage their masculinity. It makes her breaking all the more satisfying. “Very” unattractive? Maybe if one is insecure in his leadership abilities.”

    It depends on the context, frequency and extent.

    One of my disagreements with the Taken In Hand folks is their exaggerated belief in the significance of “resistance”. I agree that it is important for a man to assert his dominance and leadership by overcoming resistance from his woman, but some (or many) of them think that constantly conquering such resistance represents great achievement for a man.

    After I spend my day conquering the world, I need to come home to something better. Having to then frequently “conquer” a poodle biting at my ankles would not add to my sense of achievement, or be anything positive at all.

  98. bike bubba

    Loved Rollo’s comment about the man driving. I remember dating a young liberal feminist in my foolish younger days–she was at least pro-life and pro-gun–and I was taken aback when she offered her car when we were going to go for a walk up in a nearby park. I’m thinking that even liberal feminists have a need to know their men are capable of taking the reins.

    Failed the test miserably, thankfully, and Mrs. Bubba also lets me drive, especially around Chicago or Detroit, for obvious reasons. Women shouldn’t go into combat, after all.

    [ssm: I completely agree with you. Even liberal feminists really want men who are in control. There is no denying - only perverting - our innate natures.]

  99. sunshinemary Post author

    @ Cail

    I’m seeing the same thing in single women hitting their 30s. Not having a man at all (at least not a permanent one), she’s in the lead in her personal life all the time, and after a while it makes her batty. When she does meet a man she likes, she’s so used to making all the decisions that one of two things happens: she dominates the relationship completely, so that it’s unhealthy right from the start and sure to turn unsatisfying for her; or she goes to the other extreme and throws herself at him, submitting completely without vetting him for virtuous leadership first, which rarely works out.

    I think that’s an important observation. It’s another bit of support for early marriage. I’ve noticed this when it comes to having children, too. The longer people wait, the harder it seems to be for them to settle into parenthood.

  100. sunshinemary Post author

    Mr. King:

    The woman submits to the man’s will. The man submits to the woman’s wile.

    We can talk about this stuff without risking upvotes from Feministing and Jezebel.com. In fact, their imbalanced misinterpretation of female strength is at the heart of our enmity with those women who shaped their lives on a lie.

    When we learn to pity those misled women, rather than lowering ourselves to their level and battling them, they will be better disposed to see the truth.

    Truthtellers, do not stoop to conquer. Believe in the magnetism of our product. Veritas sells itself.

    Hmm, interesting comment about the man submitting (presumably voluntarily) to the woman’s wiles. I’ll have to think about that for a bit.

    You know, I really do pity most misled women. I don’t pity their leaders much and I do feel that conquering and deposing those leaders is the right course.

  101. Patrick Irish

    “She expected me to be the driver then and it’s been that way ever since. In my red pill Game-awareness of today I can appreciate the significance of that, but you have to understand that in my then blue-pill ignorance I was kind of shocked that she insist I drive the car she owned and insured. Until then I had never had any previous woman even so much as consider I drive her car – the presumption was always “her car, she drives me, my car, I drive her.”

    As Cail pointed out, at a certain point a woman gets so used to making all the decisions that it’s automatically the frame she enters into an LTR with, but you also have to consider that men are preconditioned for a default blue-pill presumption of equalism (which really translates to feminine social primacy) and wouldn’t presume to challenge her dominant-but-equalist frame.”

    How does equalism automatically translate to feminine social primacy?

  102. bike bubba

    BTW, the young lady did end up with a man who now has her at home with their children. Don’t know if she’s repented of her feminism or liberalism, but she’s got at least that right.

  103. FuzzieWuzzie

    Patrick Irish,
    “How does equalism auto=matically tranlate to feminine social primacy?”
    That is the $64,000 question. As for feminie social primacy, I offer that it has always been so. Given the weight of the reproductive burden on women, nine months of gestation, nursing until weaned, and years of close supervision,there is a marked tendancy to accomodate their requests.
    Your question might be better worded as, why does equalism translate to feminine dominance?

  104. Cail Corishev

    Hmm, interesting comment about the man submitting (presumably voluntarily) to the woman’s wiles.

    The logic can become a bit circular — is he doing that nice thing for her because he wants to or because she wants him to? Ultimately I think it comes down to: why is he doing it, and what would be the consequences if he didn’t? If a wife uses her wiles to get a new washing machine even though her husband thinks the old one is fine, there’s nothing wrong with that, as long as her husband does it because he appreciates her and wants to reward her good behavior (including the flirting and stuff that goes into “wiles”), and as long as he wouldn’t be in “trouble” if he said, “No, I think the old one will be fine for a while yet.”

    A wife using “wiles” to influence her husband is acknowledging his headship, which is very different from trying to pressure him into something against his will.

  105. Looking Glass

    @Patrick:

    That’s not hard, actually. Women aren’t equal to Men. In nearly all ways you can properly catalog, Men are superior. Which means any “equal” status requires Men to be taken down. Which further means that Women will be deciding what that “equal” really looks like. (This is like being a Business Owner and letting the customer set the price)

    Next, due to the massive physical & social development differences between Men & Women, Women are always far more dependent than Men are. Thus Women will always lack understanding of what they’ve had to “give up” to be “equal”. (Read that as: they haven’t had to give anything up, so why should they give up anything?) This is where Solipsism comes from. Girls can never enforce their Will by singular force, so why would, as adult Women, they think of others in regards outside of groups? They’ve always had to exist as a group.

    Last reason is always quite straight forward: Women simply don’t understand any concept of Honor, at an intrinsic level. Which leads to a very serious lack of ability to handle Integrity. Add in severe short-sightedness and you’ve got the “Why” pretty wrapped up.

  106. Cail Corishev

    How does equalism auto=matically tranlate to feminine social primacy?

    Because in the real world someone has to be in charge. No matter how equal you try to be, there will come a point when you disagree on something, and 2 votes gives you a 1-1 tie. People who insist on equality do so because they’re opposed to the husband having the final say. That only leaves one person to break all ties: the wife.

    That’s one answer; the other is Original Sin. Because of Eve, part of a woman’s sinful nature is to try to rule her man. Because of Adam, a man’s sinful nature is to sit back and let her. So when we reject the correct roles of headship and submission and try to balance right in the middle on equalism, those sinful natures tip us on over to the other side where domineering women and effeminate men reside.

    If you’re a blue-pill guy who thinks the mainstream pretty much has things right, and your wife is kinda bossy and thinks she knows best, it’s sooooooo easy to let her do most of the driving, for instance. It seems to make her happy, and you can play games on your phone, or take a nap! Why get into a fight over a responsibility you don’t particularly want anyway? But then, she doesn’t seem all that happy lately, now that you think of it, so maybe you should get her some flowers and surprise her by doing some housework this weekend…

  107. Farm Boy

    “How does equalism automatically translate to feminine social primacy?”

    It is for the same reason that any foundation that is not explicitly conservative turns left. It is a question of desire and persistence.

    In the case of foundations, the people who are attracted to that type of thing are lefties who feel a compulsion to “do good”, and they relentlessly use every trick in the book to make their goals happen.

    Women are the same way. If it is not explicitly clear who is boss, then through relentless challenges and tricks, she will come out on top. The compulsion to shit-test helps immensely in this endeavour.

  108. Farm Boy

    I like a woman who shit-tests men with her attempts to upstage their masculinity. It makes her breaking all the more satisfying

    If that is the type of challenge that you like, then go for it.

    Other fellas prefer different types of challenges.

    Taming women should not be a default challenge for the guys.

  109. Farm Boy

    Women simply don’t understand any concept of Honor, at an intrinsic level

    I have noticed that also. I wonder why this is…

  110. Farm Boy

    or she goes to the other extreme and throws herself at him, submitting completely without vetting him for virtuous leadership first, which rarely works out.

    I could mention something about tingles…

  111. Julian O'Dea

    My wife once wisely remarked, at a dinner party of all places, that women cannot be as honour-bound as men because they have their children to consider. It makes them consummate pragmatists.

    There is an interesting remark by Lady Julia Flyte, if I recall correctly, in Brideshead Revisited about Mrs Muspratt, who is marrying Brideshead, the future Lord Marchmain. She says that Mrs Muspratt has lied about her age to Brideshead for the sake of getting a good home for her children.

  112. Julian O'Dea

    “I like a woman who shit-tests men with her attempts to upstage their masculinity. It makes her breaking all the more satisfying”

    The haughtiest woman I ever knew “broke”. But was it worth the trouble? I doubt it.

  113. Julian O'Dea

    A few other quick points.

    Anger can be shown, to good effect, but it should be used sparingly like a spice. And not too often or for too long. Some “tests” require a short, sharp response. The main thing is not to “bicker”, which puts you on the woman’s level and on her preferred playing field. (Some men are verbally adept, but most are not). So silence or a short burst of anger are best. do not be querulous or peevish and do not repeat your position. “The king has spoken”.

    Younger women make better wife material for many reasons, not the least of which is their greater malleability.

    I once knew a woman who used to dance with women as if she were a Lesbian, was a feminist and dressed pretty butch. When I last saw her she was heavily pregnant, married and following her husband to another city to pursue his studies. And she seemed happy.

    Ceding equality to women at the theoretical level immediately gives too much of the game to women. That is why I hosted a couple of guest blog posts recently arguing the inferiority of women, which is a position that should at least be considered before anything further is decided. I mention this because the point about inferiority has been raised above.

    The onus is on feminists to prove the equality of women. Men have no need to assume it.

  114. Farm Boy

    From the link that Fuzzie referenced,

    I read this article several years ago and I have always remembered it, especially since during WWII some women would hand out white feathers to men, which meant they were cowards for not being in the war.

    Yes, men are expendable. They, as a whole, must protect women.

    And women must shit-test that point home.

  115. Farm Boy

    The main thing is not to “bicker”

    Indeed. Make your point and move on. Ignore all attempts to re-engage. This is an attempt at shit-testing.

  116. JDG

    Women may love the Beta, but they only respect the Alpha.

    Interesting! This brought to mind an entirely different take on the love and respect mime.

    I say this because I find using man-love and wife-obey more accurate for communicating the male / female biblical dynamic in marriage (as opposed to man-love and wife-respect).

    The word respect often is used to compromise the meaning of the text. “I respect him but I that doesn’t mean I have to do what he says.”

    What is one to do when tingles aren’t enough?

  117. FuzzieWuzzie

    Farm Boy, I like your reference to hunting. Bringing down a wooly Mammoth would take cooperation, trust, and in the end, honor.

    That linked article mentions a headmistress, equivilent to a high school principal, warning her female students that nine out of ten would go unmarried. It was at the close of World War One.

    Note that none of Robert E. Lee’s daughters married. All the men in their marriage pool had gotten killed.

  118. Calliso

    Actually primates have a variety of relationship structures. http://anthro.palomar.edu/behavior/behave_2.htm
    Bleh keep thinking of things after I post. But anyway as you can see from this link while some primates certainly have a definite hierarchy to their social structures from that link it appears that not all do. But really as you can see from that link you can’t make the sweeping generalization of this is what primates do. Also probably more important to this particular discussion not all of the primate societies with some sort of hierarchical arrangement are male dominated.

  119. JDG

    She is doing it for a sense of power rather than with the humility required to do what you are saying for the best of all involved.

    Or its just because she wants to go to the mall, but she knows you don’t. So she starts with any little thing that will get you into the car. Then depending on how she has read your negativity towards the mall that day, she inserts accordingly seemingly small requests until you are near the mall.

    Now she could have taken the car herself and gone at any time. Nope! She wants you to go too. Wait! What was that you were saying about a sense of power?

  120. redpillsetmefree

    From a man’s point of view, which is worse? Being in a power struggle

    ….when as men are we not in a power struggle with women? Remember Rollo’s essay about how men can never rest with women, which is one of the biggest disappointments of even the Alpha-est of males?
    Remember all the male testimony about how even the slightest perceived weakness will not only be exploited by women, but quickly lead to her cheating and leaving? Because when is she not sh*t-testing?
    Remember the last 40 years? Feminism constantly creeping into the mainstream, and shredding the social contract, whilst warping the legal one to where now even an unapproved look towards a woman can land a man in jail?
    Translation: We have to keep our collective feet in your collective asses all the time, or you’ll wreck the whole thing. That’s a struggle.

    or being a lap dog who is trained to perform amusing tricks?

    This is worse. This is a man that’s clearly just given up, and he’s been beaten down so, until he’s simply tired of fighting.

  121. allamagoosa

    It really is not possible for a man to lead, if he does not lead from above.

    I have commented that it is easy to submit to NSR because he’s 10 (or so) inches taller than me. Not exactly what you mean of course, but a dependable, stable personality and a physically obvious strength advantage make for a good combination.

  122. Patrick Irish

    Looking Glass, Cail and Farm Boy, my personal experiences with women don’t match any of yours. Maybe I just got lucky?

  123. earl

    As a frequent dancer myself…backleading is a huge issue I have to deal with. I just say “NO!” firmly when it happens. Usually works.

  124. JDG

    I don’t get this. I like a woman who shit-tests men with her attempts to upstage their masculinity. It makes her breaking all the more satisfying. “Very” unattractive? Maybe if one is insecure in his leadership abilities.

    Insecure or not I have a houshold to keep in order, and those tests make for more work then is necessary. There is enough to deal with then the added drama of that kind of foolishness.

  125. FuzzieWuzzie

    Farm Boy, I agree with you in that society sees men as expendable. The point I was trying to make is that the expense goes deeper.
    Between WWI and the Spanish influenza pandemic, That generation is referred to as “lost” for a reason. I kind of scares me as I see a parallel to current times, less the catastrophe of war.

  126. earl

    To add to the gradual turning off of lights story…I notice that too. If a woman doesn’t overtly try to take your leadership, she will covertly try to take it by making suggestions.

    Although if my options from a woman were her being a harpy nag…or subtely doing those things, I’d take the subtle route. Because then I can play dumb to what is going on.

  127. nightskyradio

    Patrick Irish – Looking Glass, Cail and Farm Boy, my personal experiences with women don’t match any of yours. Maybe I just got lucky?

    Are you trying to backlead someone into making a “luck of the Irish” joke? (rim shot)

    JDG – What is one to do when tingles aren’t enough?

    Rihanna says an empty 40 bottle works wonders.

  128. redpillsetmefree

    If a woman doesn’t overtly try to take your leadership, she will covertly try to take it by making suggestions.
    Although if my options from a woman were her being a harpy nag…or subtely doing those things, I’d take the subtle route. Because then I can play dumb to what is going on.

    Well remember, women without exception think that they’re smarter than men, so they have lots of techniques that they use to try and get their way. Not the least of which is suggesting an idea and then twisting the conversation so you’ll think it was your idea in the first place.
    They will also preface many sentences with “See, I know you,” which in their minds adds weight to whatever follows after, as if just because she’s acquainted with some of my ways, her counsel is gospel.
    Women pivot verbally the way that Jordan used to pivot on the court. So she’ll find a way to misdirect and then make the layup, and derive inordinate amounts of pleasure at the internal feeling of having gotten her way, whether you were outwardly complicit or not.

    As I said….no rest. Just let her make all the decisions in a 24 hour cycle and see if she’s in the mood for sexin’ that night. You not dominating her at all times just dries up her love tingles like going from Niagara to the Sahara.

  129. earl

    At some point it goes from testing a guy to see if he is strong enough to stand up against her…to outright foolishness. At what point does it go from testing to see if he is a wall…to her trying to tear down that wall?

  130. redpillsetmefree

    At what point does it go from testing to see if he is a wall…to her trying to tear down that wall?

    It depends on what her goals are. Younger women will push it to the point of it costing you your life….they will do some cuh-RAZY stuff, just to see how far you’ll go.
    Older women(35-50) will test you to breaking, but don’t have the same options if they leave, so they’ll tend to stay, but make a constant spectacle of “look at my broken husband. I sure got him whipped.”
    Remember that women are insatiably curious to the point of psychotic breaks with reality. If you tell her not to go in a certain closet, and there’s a timer with C4 in there if she opens the door, she’ll wait until you leave, blow up the whole house by going in that closet, and survive long enough to say “it’s your fault for keeping something that dangerous in there.”

    So, if her nose is full of the smell of “what exactly is he keeping from me?” her curiousity will drive her insane until she discovers the withheld information, no matter what it is. Or what it takes.

  131. Cail Corishev

    Looking Glass, Cail and Farm Boy, my personal experiences with women don’t match any of yours. Maybe I just got lucky?

    No offense, but it’s more likely that you just don’t see it yet. I didn’t see it either ten years ago through the rose-colored glasses through which I viewed women; but once I did, I could see it all the way back to grade school. We’re not just talking about our own personal experiences; we’re talking about what we see happening to friends and family, the power dynamics in our churches and businesses, and even large political movements. This issue runs through everything. So no, it’s not likely that you just haven’t run into any rebellious women.

    Now, that doesn’t mean all women are rebellious all the time, of course. My own short marriage was pretty pleasant for several months, and she was quite sweet and submissive while we were dating (it wasn’t until she hated me at the end that she revised history to declare it a disaster from the start). But because I made the mistake of treating her as an equal and abdicating my responsibility to lead — not the only reason, but the main one — she became discontented, then rebellious, then impossible to placate. Except for a couple of very close friends, no one else saw any of this. Most people she knows still don’t, and are perplexed that it didn’t work out. If you’re not very close to a couple, you don’t know how upside-down their hierarchy might be, though you can usually see signs once you know what to look for.

    By the way, many of us probably sound bitter, because we’re focused here on the problems (which is the only way to find solutions). I can’t speak for those other guys, but I’m not bitter at all. I think women are wonderful creatures — flighty, fickle, fun, wonderful creatures — but I say that now with my eyes open (I hope) about what they are and aren’t. Now that I know what to expect from them, good and bad, I don’t fear them or wind up disappointed by them. Most of my interactions with women now are enjoyable, freed of the misconception of seeing them as pure snowflakes deserving of the pedestal.

  132. Cail Corishev

    At what point does it go from testing to see if he is a wall…to her trying to tear down that wall?

    That’s a good point. Some women — those with BPD, for instance (which I think of as “female squared”), may never stop trying to tear it down, because that’s their habit: sabotage each relationship until the other person flees or beats them up, so they can tell themselves that they act the way they do because everyone leaves them or beats them. It becomes a no-win situation, because their goal is not to find a strong man, but to prove that all relationships fail. All you can do when you suspect you’ve found one of them is walk away.

  133. Patrick Irish

    “No offense, but it’s more likely that you just don’t see it yet. I didn’t see it either ten years ago through the rose-colored glasses through which I viewed women; but once I did, I could see it all the way back to grade school. This issue runs through everything. So no, it’s not likely that you just haven’t run into any rebellious women.”

    I don’t give them anything to rebel against. I’m a laid back chap and all the women I’ve been with were laid back as well. Like attracts like I suppose.

    “Patrick Irish, consider yourself fortunate.”

    Don’t worry mate, after reading this stuff, I do!

    “Are you trying to backlead someone into making a “luck of the Irish” joke?”

    Funny.

  134. sunshinemary Post author

    By the way, many of us probably sound bitter, because we’re focused here on the problems (which is the only way to find solutions). I can’t speak for those other guys, but I’m not bitter at all. I think women are wonderful creatures — flighty, fickle, fun, wonderful creatures — but I say that now with my eyes open (I hope) about what they are and aren’t. Now that I know what to expect from them, good and bad, I don’t fear them or wind up disappointed by them. Most of my interactions with women now are enjoyable, freed of the misconception of seeing them as pure snowflakes deserving of the pedestal.

    I really appreciate reading stuff like that. There are some men – you, Cane Caldo, Julian O’Dea, Dalrock, a few others – who see how women are and don’t try to sugar coat it but don’t hate us for being what we are and still want to engage with us. And then there are some pleasant men like Carnivore who look around and see clearly how women are and accept that without hating us but who ultimately decide that dealing with modern women simply isn’t worth it. I appreciate hearing their perspective on things, too. And then there are some men…

    Well, anyway. Really, we just need not to be pedestalized or hated and then we aren’t so bad. Oh no wait, we also need to be disenfranchised. Oh, and possibly beaten on occasion…

    (Relax, I’m kidding, O Lurking Hysterical GOMIans. At least, I’m kidding about the beatings. Mostly.)

  135. Farm Boy

    What is one to do when tingles aren’t enough?

    Rihanna says an empty 40 bottle works wonders.

    That is not a different approach; it is just turbo-tingles.

  136. redpillsetmefree

    @Patrick Irish
    I don’t give them anything to rebel against. I’m a laid back chap and all the women I’ve been with were laid back as well. Like attracts like I suppose.

    I think that this is true. I think that your calm nature will draw females to you that have no desire for bluster.
    Tell me(and you may have mentioned it upthread already, so apologies if I missed it), are you married?

  137. Farm Boy

    Some women — those with BPD, for instance (which I think of as “female squared”), may never stop trying to tear it down, because that’s their habit: sabotage each relationship until the other person flees or beats them up, so they can tell themselves that they act the way they do because everyone leaves them or beats them.

    Yes, so true. I never hit my BPD ex, even though she was trying hard to egg me on. It was because of discipline and honor, not because of VAWA (which I was unaware of at the time). One has not lived life fully, unless they were married to a BPD wife.

  138. Patrick Irish

    “By the way, many of us probably sound bitter, because we’re focused here on the problems (which is the only way to find solutions). I can’t speak for those other guys, but I’m not bitter at all. I think women are wonderful creatures — flighty, fickle, fun, wonderful creatures — but I say that now with my eyes open (I hope) about what they are and aren’t. Now that I know what to expect from them, good and bad, I don’t fear them or wind up disappointed by them. Most of my interactions with women now are enjoyable, freed of the misconception of seeing them as pure snowflakes deserving of the pedestal.”

    So you discovered that women are human, eh?

  139. Patrick Irish

    “I think that this is true. I think that your calm nature will draw females to you that have no desire for bluster.”

    Are we a boring couple?

    “Tell me(and you may have mentioned it upthread already, so apologies if I missed it), are you married?”

    6 years.

  140. Farm Boy

    but don’t hate us for being what we are and still want to engage with us
    Actually, I think that there are a number of fellas in the “don’t hate” category. The hard core types normally don’t come here, they go to more hospitable blogs for that type of thing. Remember that the fellas here are mostly Christian, and often ones that seriously follow the true guidelines at that.

  141. Julian O'Dea

    CC:

    ” I made the mistake of treating her as an equal.”

    Despite what they say, women love being treated a bit roughly. Rough language is enough. Speak to your wife as if she were a sex object. She will affect to be offended, but somewhere down there – cough – she is titillated.

    I also agree that “nobody knows what goes on behind closed doors”. It is not always obvious who really wears the pants.

    Unfortunately, as I realised years ago, playing the male role successfully requires one to take some nasty risks, even flirting with illegality at times.

  142. Farm Boy

    So you discovered that women are human, eh?

    They were human in both the before and after phases. It is just that things were papered-over in the before phase.

    Society papers-over no aspect of guys.

  143. redpillsetmefree

    “I think that this is true. I think that your calm nature will draw females to you that have no desire for bluster.”

    Are we a boring couple?

    Haahahah! By whose standards?

    “Tell me(and you may have mentioned it upthread already, so apologies if I missed it), are you married?”

    6 years.

    If your life is serene, and the kitchen floor is clean, count your blessings, bro!

  144. Farm Boy

    SSM, you neglected to mention terrified bears.

    She is off of her game. Probably she is still traumatized by thoughts of Brady Hoke.

  145. Julian O'Dea

    SSM, kidding about the beatings – mostly.

    The funny thing was that as my understanding of my wife’s real nature increased, my love for her grew. It is easy to mistakenly try to love a mental construct, and then become bitter when it fails to accord with reality. It is better to love a woman as she is, not as you think women should be.

  146. Farm Boy

    It is better to love a woman as she is, not as you think women should be.

    True. I wonder what would happen if society in general were taught of the true nature of women….

  147. Julian O'Dea

    Farm Boy, it is all through the Bible.

    And, I was born in 1955, and I remember when the pedestalising of women was not a thing. It still mostly isn’t here in Oz.

  148. FuzzieWuzzie

    Farm Boy, I had to search for Brady Hoke and stumbled across an article stating that he and the whole coaching staff were returning next year. No doubt that SSM is off her game. I didn’t read the article but, there must have been ringing endorsements from Michign’s opponents.

  149. alphabetasoup

    I am actually convinced that we are eager participants in the delusion. We very badly want the lies to be true.

  150. sunshinemary Post author

    The funny thing was that as my understanding of my wife’s real nature increased, my love for her grew.

    I remember someone asking Dalrock about a year or so ago how he can write what he does and not hate women. He said something to the effect that understanding the true nature of women didn’t make him hate us, but rather feel some sympathy for us. I should go try to dig up exactly what he said because I remember being impressed by it.

  151. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy, it is all through the Bible.

    It is true. That is why the Patriarchy existed, to handle these issues.

    Women were also taught to better people in the olden days, They are still living off of the fumes of the reputation garnered back in the day.

    We have abandoned the wise words of yore.

  152. sunshinemary Post author

    I had to search for Brady Hoke and stumbled across an article stating that he and the whole coaching staff were returning next year.

    Why, that calls for a GIF, I think!

  153. sunshinemary Post author

    And long time readers know, I don’t hand out GIFs for just any old reason. Only for special ones. Because I love me some GIFs, yes I do. /sarcasm>

  154. FuzzieWuzzie

    SSM, I think even the GOMIs have moved on from GIFs. Following your link, I saw a smiley faced emoticon that turned green and threw up. These people keep finding a new bottom in crass.
    By coomparison, your GIF is mild.

  155. Patrick Irish

    “True. I wonder what would happen if society in general were taught of the true nature of women….”

    Where do you live?

    “Unfortunately, as I realised years ago, playing the male role successfully requires one to take some nasty risks, even flirting with illegality at times.”

    Uh, oh. No safe word?

    “If your life is serene, and the kitchen floor is clean, count your blessings, bro!”

    Serene, yes. Clean? We’re messy eaters.

  156. FuzzieWuzzie

    Julian O’Dea, I followed your link and was surprised that there was no police involvement. Their excuse was “these are women”. Something tells me that more damage was done to their cause by filming it and distributing it worldwide than locking up their vandalizing asses.

  157. Farm Boy

    “True. I wonder what would happen if society in general were taught of the true nature of women….”

    Where do you live?

    I should ask you that. There may be something in water there. If so, we should bottle it.

  158. Patrick Irish

    I clicked on the uncensored version of the video. At one point what some of these women are doing is nothing less than indecent exposure and sexual harassment. People get locked up in other countries for far less. The Argentinian people are clearly fed up with Rome dictating their laws, but I don’t think this is the way to go about dismantling empire.

  159. Matthew King

    Dear Madam President,

    Mr. Corishev wrote:

    A wife using “wiles” to influence her husband is acknowledging his headship, which is very different from trying to pressure him into something against his will.

    Hit the nail on the head. One can respectfully disagree. In fact, the best dynamic would require a loyal opposition if only to promote the quality of the leader’s decision making.

    Hence the tragedy of losing our honorifics, courtesy, etiquette, and formal politesse. Dissent can very easily be taken as disrespect, unless great pains are taken to emphasize the integrity of the challenged.

    It is cute and nearly irresistible for a daddy to deny any request of his daughter’s when presented with great care for his status. This is a good manifestation of feminine power — everybody knows the score, there is no struggle for domination, and respect is mutual and self-evident.

    IN MY BLOG, exaggerated honorifics will be automatically added to commentary posts. I can’t believe this isn’t already a phenomenon. I’m still kicking around the idea of appending “The Right Honorable Gentleman” according to some grammatical script.

    It’s like the internet so stupefied us that we think we have to reinvent Robert’s Rules of Order and Emily Post from scratch lest everything devolve into the uncivil cacophony this method of communication is best known for. We figured out long ago the utility of forced formality to the practice of deliberation and rhetoric in general.

    Sincerely and Very Truly Yours,
    Matthew King

  160. sunshinemary Post author

    No safe word?

    Palomino?

    LOL, wish I could find video of that classic skit.

    SSM, I think even the GOMIs have moved on from GIFs. Following your link, I saw a smiley faced emoticon that turned green and threw up. These people keep finding a new bottom in crass.

    Sometimes I think it would be humorous to drop some totally outrageous, made up comment in the middle of a long thread here and time how long it would take one of my obsessed stalker fangirls to either write a blogpost on my comment or post it some place like GOMI. Several months ago when David Futrelle (Manboobz) wrote up one of my posts, several of his readers were able to quote things I’d said months – and even years – ago on other people’s blogs in the middle of several-hundred-comment long threads. I was both flattered and creeped out.

  161. alphabetasoup

    @Farm Boy

    “Is it worth it from his or society’s perspective?

    He wants to capture a modern rebellious woman. Not appealling. NAWALT

    Society wants his energies put into being productive, not indomitable.”

    Please dont take my comments as being from one who has this figured out. It should be obvious I dont. These are thoughts only a from blind man groping around in the dark.

    It seems like your questions stem from a bad frame. Society has very little to do with my motives. They have never had my best interest in mind. I look at it from the reference of my life traded with that of Christ. If he had called me to marry a whore, I would hope to trust his judgment, that is part of the deal.

    He has asked me to mirror his relationship with his church. Do I gain from this? Ultimately yes, but right now, probably not. He has given me the much better side of the deal. I only strive to take myself out of the middle, and use my brief appearance wisely.

    I agree that most modern women are a bad bet, so are most modern men. We have lost our heading and those kinds of questions dont do anything but freeze us in place.

  162. Julian O'Dea

    SSM, they read everything. I had the same experience. The creeps at No More Mr Nice Guy, for example, had clearly read nearly everything I ever wrote on any blog ever. They clearly have dull little lives, these PC policepersons..

    Patrick, life doesn’t come with a safe word.

    FuzzieWuzzie, yes. I have invented a new Latin name for the way feminists flash their tits like that in demonstrations to try to make a point. Argumentum Ad Mammas.

    Matthew King, my wife used to do this thing where she would twist her body around and lower it, bat her eyelashes and ask me for something in a cutesy voice. I found it hilarious and she usually got what she wanted.

  163. Patrick Irish

    Femen is the brainchild of this man

    http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/news/the-man-who-made-femen-new-film-outs-victor-svyatski-as-the-mastermind-behind-the-protest-group-and-its-breastbaring-stunts-8797042.html

    “One can respectfully disagree. In fact, the best dynamic would require a loyal opposition if only to promote the quality of the leader’s decision making.

    Hence the tragedy of losing our honorifics, courtesy, etiquette, and formal politesse. Dissent can very easily be taken as disrespect, unless great pains are taken to emphasize the integrity of the challenged.”

    So true in today’s online world where snark is king. And no one can take seriously protestors like in the video above. Somewhere behind all their bacchanal they do have a point but you’d never know it. Ideologically I’m probably more on their side than not but I’d have to wade through a lot of muck to find out and I can never support the abuse they meted out to those honorable men humbly and graciously defending their church from vandalism.

  164. nightskyradio

    FuzzieWuzzie – I saw a smiley faced emoticon that turned green and threw up. These people keep finding a new bottom in crass.

    The internet is still new in the Bear’s part of the woods, isn’t it? :)

  165. nightskyradio

    SSM – Sometimes I think it would be humorous to drop some totally outrageous, made up comment in the middle of a long thread here and time how long it would take one of my obsessed stalker fangirls to either write a blogpost on my comment or post it some place like GOMI.

    Or drop a comment about something trivially mundane, but with just enough laser-guided wording that they can spin it into something ridiculous.
    ***********************************
    HUMOROUS EXAMPLE

    Jackie N.Jill – “When I was 15, a teacher was showing us how electricity powered a railroad set. The student next to me was chronically narcoleptic and fell asleep, his head pitching forward onto the track just as the engine was rounding the curve in front of me. I couldn’t wake up or move the 300-pound student, so I yanked the engine off the outer track and set it on the inner track before it would have ran into his eyes.”

    Stalker fangirl translation – “Jackie pulled a train in high school!”

  166. Ton

    Most red pill men don’t fully understand the true nature of women but if men did…… many would advocate keeping women chained up. Or more.extreme measures.

  167. tbc

    exaggerated honorifics will be automatically added to commentary posts. I can’t believe this isn’t already a phenomenon. I’m still kicking around the idea of appending “The Right Honorable Gentleman” according to some grammatical script.

    I second the proposal of my learned colleague Mr. King, and further propose that other like-minded gentlemen should adopt this proposal unanimously. And to the esteemed ladies amongst us, I advise that you do your ablest part to enthusiastically support and encourage this movement towards greater civility in internet discourse.

    Very Truly Yours,
    Mr. TBC

  168. Ton

    Ok, I asked my live in what she thought men would do if we knew the full truth about women.

    Her reply: “Hunt us to extinction”

    I am know getting a 74 year history lesson of her running battles with other females…. though I am not sure how much of it I should believe.

  169. earl

    Something must be in our brains that doesn’t cause us to kill them all. It’s probably the same thing but to a lesser extent the same thing that doesn’t cause God to scrap us all.

    However it isn’t that nature of women that causes my anger…it is being lied to about it. I would think many other men have the same feeling. Living in reality is much better than believing a distortion.

  170. Cail Corishev

    I don’t give them anything to rebel against. I’m a laid back chap and all the women I’ve been with were laid back as well. — Patrick

    Same here. Until they weren’t. That was one of my mistakes: thinking that “laid-back” for a woman meant the same thing as it does for me. The usual pattern was that my laid-back nature would seem to calm her at first, and her family would even comment on how I was bringing out the best in her. But after a while, she’d start to see it less as calm strength and more as passivity and start chipping away at it with shit tests, and I wouldn’t respond strongly enough, making her fear (perhaps accurately) that I wasn’t the guy she assumed I was. Things go downhill fast from there.

    If you’ve found a truly laid-back woman, then yes, you’re lucky, and my hat’s off to you. I would just suggest that you watch for signs that she’s ever getting bored or restless, because that’s usually the first sign that a man isn’t leading with enough dominance to suit her anymore.

  171. Novaseeker

    I remember someone asking Dalrock about a year or so ago how he can write what he does and not hate women. He said something to the effect that understanding the true nature of women didn’t make him hate us, but rather feel some sympathy for us. I should go try to dig up exactly what he said because I remember being impressed by it.

    I think Roissy said something similar once as well, IIRC.

    Anyway, there’s also an interesting quote from Ender’s Game about this:

    “In the moment when I truly understand my enemy, understand him well enough to defeat him, then in that very moment I also love him. I think it’s impossible to really understand somebody, what they want, what they believe, and not love them the way they love themselves. And then, in that very moment when I love them…. I destroy them.”

    That’s pretty much Roissy, I think, right there.

  172. Novaseeker

    If you’ve found a truly laid-back woman, then yes, you’re lucky, and my hat’s off to you. I would just suggest that you watch for signs that she’s ever getting bored or restless, because that’s usually the first sign that a man isn’t leading with enough dominance to suit her anymore.

    I agree.

    The problem with being “laid back” (made that mistake myself when I was younger as well) is that even as laid back as she may be herself, your relationship and marriage will present many situations where being laid back will be viewed horrifically by her. Horrifically. As in terrifying. It’s just a question of timing as to when those situations arise, really. Women can be laid back, but men don’t have the luxury — it isn’t manly.

  173. Cautiously Pessimistic

    So you discovered that women are human, eh?

    Nope. I discovered women were women, rather than men with boobs and vaginas.

    Being force-fed “men-and-women-are-equal-except-women-are-better” propoganda for most of my life, as well as having most of the women I met insist “the-propoganda-is-totally-true-you-sexist-pig” is a difficult frame to break out of. And I’m more than a little peeved at being so grievously misled by so many people, including all the people I was supposed to be able to trust (parents, teachers, ministers, authority figures, etc). Hence the bitterness, not at women, but at the lie, it’s propogators, and the damage it’s caused society generally and me personally.

  174. Maeve

    “Nope. I discovered women were women, rather than men with boobs and vaginas. ”

    I guess I just never got the whole “men and women are the same” schtick. Always knew I was not anything like a man and (no offense to men here), but I never wanted to be one. My parents did not treat me the same as my brothers; my brothers were quick to reassure me that I was ABSOLUTELY NOTHING LIKE THEM AND NEVER WOULD BE AMEN THE END. It’s not that anyone had any lesser expectations of me because I was a girl, just different ones. I’m still kind of struggling with the idea that so many men seem to have been raised with this ludicrous ideology that women are the same as men – I knew it was pervasive among women, just not men (I don’t actually live under a rock, it just seems that way I guess).

  175. freebird

    My favorite scene in Driving Miss Daisy is when They are on the long car drive back from visiting relatives and Hoke as to pee.

    Daisy demands he hold it until the next town.
    Hoke considers,then refuses.
    He also takes the keys out of the car so she cannot strand him there.

    Always take the keys guys.
    Always refuse to comply with tyrannical demands.

    That is the very least you can do,if you had any self respect.

  176. Just Saying

    ” ‘Sometimes I backlead, tee-hee’. The exact moment.”

    I have taken a number of dance classes, and every now and then they will have a specialty class that I’ll attend. There are many women that are ‘okay” followers – there are many who try to back-lead and it is a habit you constantly have to fight since there can be only one “leader” in any group activity. (Few men want to dance with these women as it is a chore.) But there is ONE woman, and I mean exactly one, that is the ideal follower. Every man wants to dance with her – it is interesting to see, and even more to experience. She melds herself to you and follows perfectly – no matter how poor of a leader you are, she lets you lead her. And if you are a good leader, she will make you feel like a god. I have seen the change (heck I have felt it) – any man who dances with her is better than he is with the other women who are there. I don’t dance with her often, and the reason is, she is the type of woman that makes me question my approach to life. Fortunately, there is only ONE of her.

    Every woman out there could take a lesson from this woman in how to live life.

    The lesson is, if you want your man to be a “better” man, you need to be a “BETTER WOMAN” and let him lead you in all things. By fighting against him you diminish him, and make yourself unhappy – you are the constant in the equation of your life, and YOU are the problem if you have many failed relationships. (Yes, I know that is difficult for you to grasp since you have been told you’re a perfect little princess – you aren’t – why do you think you are unhappy? It’s you.) So before you criticize the men you are seeing – look to yourself and see how much you fight against him. In my world, I would just kick you to the curb and move on to the next one since I see such women as worthless (this is also why I prefer young women – they are more willing to follow, and why I ditch them when/if they get bossy) – I recommend all men do this and not waste their time with women who fight against their leadership, since the problem is yours ladies. If you are unwilling to change yourself, you aren’t worth a man’s time and effort. (I suspect that my willingness to kick such women to the curb is why they keep trying to seek me out – because they WANT to be submissive – but don’t know how. And frankly, such women aren’t worth my time and energy.)

    I don’t expect many women to listen – but to those that have had the good fortune of seeing a “good relationship” – give it a try. Let him lead you – you will be amazed in the change you see come over him. But you have to willing to “BE A WOMAN” – rather than trying to be a man. Of course, I don’t expect many women to listen – which is why so many become the “crazy cat lady”.

  177. Farm Boy

    And I’m more than a little peeved at being so grievously misled by so many people

    Many of the “foot soldier” types are forgiven in my book. They did not know any better. It is the higher-ups that are really to blame – especially the media.

    It was a masterful job. In times past, girls were taught to be “good”. My older sisters were taught to try to be little angels. The general concept of “sugar and spice and everything nice” permiated the air.

    Then three things happened — the rules were loosened for women, they were no longer taught to be “good”, and the first world entered a period of unprecedented prosperity. In short, women could be independent and less than moral.

    However, sugar and spice and everything nice was continued and also extended to include “moral authority”. In reality, neither are true. And people are starting to figure it out.

  178. Farm Boy

    The word “hate” has been thrown about a bit here. When I see it, it always raises red flags with me because it is so readily used by modern liberals. The reason that they use it is to summarize a complex issue as a simple one — the person who is a “hater” is a morally deficient person — end of conversation.

    So please use the word sparingly.

  179. Cautiously Pessimistic

    @FB- “Many of the “foot soldier” types are forgiven in my book. They did not know any better. It is the higher-ups that are really to blame – especially the media.

    Well, if my roarin’ rampage of revenge ever officially kicks into gear, I’ll bear that in mind.

  180. hoellenhund2

    “I remember someone asking Dalrock about a year or so ago how he can write what he does and not hate women. He said something to the effect that understanding the true nature of women didn’t make him hate us, but rather feel some sympathy for us.”

    It’s probably more simple than that. He never got seriously burned. He’s in a functioning marriage and he’s getting old. In other words, he’s all set. Practically speaking, he left the SMP. He has no skin in the game. Why should he? What does he have to lose, or prove? He’s an ageing guy who couldn’t care less. The same applies to David Collard. Of course they aren’t whipping themselves into a frenzy over wimminz. Why should they?

  181. Farm Boy

    Well, if my roarin’ rampage of revenge ever officially kicks into gear, I’ll bear that in mind.

    Willy Shakesperson once suggested that people should start with the lawyers. I would suggest that we start with the media.

    Their true purpose is to “report the news”. They view their job as to “comfort the afflicted and to afflict the comfortable”. In reality, they are not doing a good job of either, as men are not so comfortable and the media is relentlessly afflicting them.

  182. Julian O'Dea

    hoellenhund2:

    “It’s probably more simple than that. He never got seriously burned. He’s in a functioning marriage and he’s getting old. In other words, he’s all set. Practically speaking, he left the SMP. He has no skin in the game. Why should he? What does he have to lose, or prove? He’s an ageing guy who couldn’t care less. The same applies to David Collard. Of course they aren’t whipping themselves into a frenzy over wimminz. Why should they?”

    There is some truth in this. But remember, I had to face these things when I was in the marriage market and I am still in a relationship with a woman. I have found the tips in the manosphere immensely helpful even now that I am late into a marriage. Wives do not suddenly become and stay perfect. How do I know much of the Red Pill thinking is good and works with a real woman? Because I have seen it myself even in the last few years.

    We have had a happier marriage in the last few years in part because of what I have learned at places like Dalrock.

    I look back and see more clearly why some things I did in the past worked and some didn’t. I have learned some good stuff, painfully, and I like to share it and pick up new ideas.

    So, no, I am not now in the marriage market, but I am in a marriage.

    Julian O’Dea (old penname David Collard)

  183. Pingback: A Couple of Dogs | The Society of Phineas

  184. ballista74

    It’s probably more simple than that. He never got seriously burned. He’s in a functioning marriage and he’s getting old. In other words, he’s all set. Practically speaking, he left the SMP. He has no skin in the game.

    This applies to at least 75% of the commentators out there, namely those that are married and therefore have no skin in this game or those who are in denial about their blue-pillness. There’s a definite selection fallacy involved, akin to the person who is rich by the lottery saying that “if you want to be rich like me, play the lottery”.

    Or all the grousing about it reminds me of the Japanese man that was selling the get rich quick scheme on tv all the time back in the 80s…”Look, I have big home…why you not have big home!” “Look at my fancy car….why you not have fancy car!” “I have big boat…why you not have big boat!”

    It’s been proven well that a number have no conception of what the MMP is like. Yet they act like they do and they push with their selection fallacy…”just because you saw someone get burned by the stove, young man, doesn’t mean you will”. Yes it does.

  185. Patrick Irish

    “I remember someone asking Dalrock about a year or so ago how he can write what he does and not hate women. ”

    “Most red pill men don’t fully understand the true nature of women but if men did…… many would advocate keeping women chained up. Or more.extreme measures.”

    These are alien concepts for me. Why would anyone hate or want to keep women chained up? They are humans, with all the faults that entails, just like you and I. Seems some people don’t either understand human nature or expect women to be above it.

  186. Pingback: Lightning Round – 2013/12/04 | Free Northerner

  187. hoellenhund2

    Partically speaking, what skin in the game does an older married man like you have? It’s not like there’s a reasonable chance of your wife leaving you. You’re not a de facto player in the SMP either.

  188. hoellenhund2

    “These are alien concepts for me. Why would anyone hate or want to keep women chained up? They are humans, with all the faults that entails, just like you and I. Seems some people don’t either understand human nature or expect women to be above it.”

    That’s not the main issue. The main issue with the Red Pill is that it encourages average betas to withhold all the investment that women have traditionally expected from average betas as their birthright.

  189. Ton

    Clearly Patrick you have little 1st hand experience w/ women.

    I don’t hate women but I understand their feral nature and I understand extreme measures are required to keep that feral nature in check. The abortion rate, divorce rate, infidelity rate should be enough to make my case.

  190. Julian O'Dea

    hoellunhund2, as I explained, I thought, I want a happy marriage with all that that it entails. Older marriages are not necessarily happy. Understanding women increases one’s chances of a happy marriage.

  191. Julian O'Dea

    Ton is completely correct about the abortion point. The abortion issue has conclusively shown for those who are not wilfully blind that women are not morally superior to men. I got a Facebook status today saying “Good men do not rape or beat women” to which I replied “Good women do not have abortions.”

    [ssm: +1]

  192. ballista74

    ballista74, any married man has “skin in the game.”

    Incorrect, unless that married man is planning on divorcing very soon. By being married, you have taken yourself completely out of the MMP/SMP, and you have no interest or care of what happens in it. You are not in the market place, so you aren’t going to care what goes on in it, and have no interest to know what is in it, nor do you bear any consequences of it.

  193. ballista74

    They are humans, with all the faults that entails, just like you and I. Seems some people don’t either understand human nature or expect women to be above it.

    They are humans like you and I who also happen to not have faced any consequences for their wicked actions for a very long time. This is because women have been treated to be better than men for a very long time.

    Since a few generations of women have grown to adulthood with no moral checks upon their actions, they have been rendered feral. This should be abundantly clear to anyone who is not blind. Anything feral can not be made unferal, so measures must be taken to make sure the feral does not damage anyone else or itself. Those measures include not supporting or rewarding the feral nature. Unfortunately this is seen as “hate” by the blind, who also believe that women do not have faults and that men are the true feral ones.

    Open your eyes so you may see…

  194. Farm Boy

    @ballista74

    It is true. Women in the older days were better, primarily because their upbringing encouraged humility, etc.

    Empowerment back then meant “Rural Electrification Authority”

    Standard NAWALT disclaimer.

  195. hoellenhund2

    “I want a happy marriage with all that that it entails. Older marriages are not necessarily happy. Understanding women increases one’s chances of a happy marriage.”

    That’s great, but also beside the point. SSM asked how is it possible for a man to regularly write about the true nature of women from a red pill perspective without being overtly hateful towards them. That’s what I tried to explain.

  196. FuzzieWuzzie

    We need a better word than “feral”. If you apply it to animals, it means reverting to the wild. Without all the benefits of modern society and big daddy government, these women could not go “feral”.

  197. FuzzieWuzzie

    As for the married people not having “skin in the game”, it’s indirect. Some have young ones about to enter the market and some have an interest in maintaining civilization.
    Don’t discount their interest or contribution.

  198. deti

    As a married man whose marriage has seen more than its share of lumps, I would have to agree with Julian that married men – ALL men – have skin in this game.

    A married man is always one “I love you but I’m not in love with you”, or debilitating illness, or beta misstep, or being out-alphaed, away from divorce.

    A married man might have sons he needs to instruct.

    A single man is either going to (1) look for a wife; (2) attempt playerhood, (3) become celibate; or (4) go his own way.

    Any way you slice it, you’re a participant in the sexual marketplace, whether you want to be or not.

    As for hating women, Ton pretty well explains it. I don’t hate them. I do understand them – and human nature – pretty well. And I do feel some sympathy for some women, especially the ones who get f’d over in this SMP: (1) the Christian women who really are trying to walk the walk; and (2) the truly unattractive women, the 1s, 2s and 3s of the world. I also feel a bit of sympathy for women who truly own their past choices and are trying to get better. I do not, however, feel any sympathy for the Jenny Eriksens of the world, nor for women who simply won’t see the truth about the current modern day SMP.

  199. Ton

    For what its worth, I’m in the all men have skin in the game camp. A buddy of mine, his wife got caught whoring at the 26 year mark.

  200. Pingback: The Hydra’s Rebellion - Stares at the World

  201. Patrick Irish

    “Clearly Patrick you have little 1st hand experience w/ women.”

    Married 6 years. She was my 10th girlfriend or thereabouts. I think that’s experience enough.

    “I don’t hate women but I understand their feral nature”

    You mean their human nature.

    “and I understand extreme measures are required to keep that feral nature in check.”

    Extreme measures are needed to keep human nature in check? I’ve never had to be harsh on myself, or anyone else for that matter. A bit cautious sometimes. So what?

  202. grey_whiskers

    @ballista74 December 4, 2013 at 7:59 am

    ballista74, any married man has “skin in the game.”

    Incorrect, unless that married man is planning on divorcing very soon. By being married, you have taken yourself completely out of the MMP/SMP, and you have no interest or care of what happens in it. You are not in the market place, so you aren’t going to care what goes on in it, and have no interest to know what is in it, nor do you bear any consequences of it.

    Sound of grey_whiskers preparing MIRV’d ICBM launch…

    Hi Ballista. I’ve been married > 25 years. But I have skin in the game: my children.
    I want them to have successful marriages.

    Where are they going to find partners????

  203. Ton

    As I have said, you have very little experience with women. Nor are you willing to look at their behavior in the public at large. Enjoy the look aide

  204. Farm Boy

    “I don’t hate women but I understand their feral nature”

    You mean their human nature.

    “and I understand extreme measures are required to keep that feral nature in check.

    Women as a whole are like the Borg from Star Trek. They are many, and they do not even realize they are working a greater mission. Each little contribution by a team woman member moves the Feminine Imperative forward. That is why they need the held in check, both individually and as a group.

    NAWALT

  205. empathologism

    Random, out of thread context, comment…..I am compelled to say it…..no, women do not greatly fear AND greatly desire to submit to their husbands. It’s impossible that this be true. Indeed they’d age a little fear, but even that is misrepresented by apologists for female proclivity. They would say they fear the unknown of following, they fear the man may mess up, etc. bunk. They fear not having authority over a man, one man in particular. They are loath to do it.

  206. mrskatieh

    Hello SunshineMary. I’ve been reading for awhile but this is my first comment. Loved this article about “topping from the bottom.” I think it’s something most of us wives do when we think we’re just being fiesty but in reality are being disobedient. My hubby is a techno geek and tells me “in the future” guys will just use mind control chips to get us to stop nagging! Lol He showed me this clip of an old cartoon he watched the other day that I thought was hilarious. I told him if they ever make something like that I’d buy it for his birthday!

    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZR11heyP9o

  207. Anne

    @deti
    “And I do feel some sympathy for some women, especially the ones who get f’d over in this SMP: (1) the Christian women who really are trying to walk the walk;”
    ————————
    Thank you. I have been very frustrated by those who claim that any woman who makes it to forty single has rejected some appropriate man, and so it is clearly her fault.

  208. Pingback: Smell the Glove | Alpha Is Assumed

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s