What both sexes need in order to make traditional sex roles workable.

It’s traditional sex roles week at Return of Kings, but the objection has been laid out from some quarters that they don’t actually want traditional sex roles.   Runsonmagic, with whom I’ve been having an interesting (and perfectly civil) back-and-forth conversation about these issues, has addressed whether or not sexually-unrestricted men such as himself actually do want traditional sex roles, in his post Does The Manosphere Really Want Traditional Sex Roles?

I’d like to respond to some of his points today and explain what both sexes need in order to make traditional sex roles possible, and then tomorrow I will outline what I think it would take to create a society founded on traditional sex roles.

Runsonmagic writes:

The objection that the men in the manosphere “don’t really want traditional women, because then you couldn’t sleep with as many women as possible” is incorrect. Men want to experience as much feminine quality as possible, not quantity.

What he means by experience of course is sleep with.  Why talk around that point?  This really does make me have to ask though, “Why should women care about improving the quality of the female herd so that men can have casual sex with us?”  It’s sort of like telling women More of you need to be sweeter and prettier so that we have a larger and better quality pool of women to have casual sex with.  Oh, and bake us multi-layered cakes after we f-ck you, please.  What kind of deal is that?  Our youth and beauty are limited resources; if we give them to a man, we need to be sure he’ll stick around when they’re gone.  Just like I wouldn’t counsel a man to marry a 30-something career woman who’s had multiple sex partners, so too I don’t advise a woman to learn how to cook and to make herself pretty for a man who offers her no commitment in return.  She should make herself pretty and learn to cook simply because those things are valuable in and of themselves, but she shouldn’t offer to give those things away for no purpose.  Likewise a man should not give away his commitment for no purpose.  The purpose of traditional sex roles is to enable family formation.

Now, it turns out, there are apparently lots of women who will profligately spend their youth, beauty, and cakes on men who aren’t offering anything in return.  I do not fault a man for accepting a woman’s youth, beauty, and cakes and offering nothing in return.  She is the fool in that situation. But I’m not going to encourage foolishness in young women, either.

This objection also assumes game doesn’t work on “good girls.” It does. Game works on all women, the same way feminine beauty works on men. A man of character might resist the advances of a beautiful woman, but he’ll still be tempted.

I’ve been assuming game works. There was a lot of discussion on other sites about a pick up artist named Krauser who apparently posted some of his stats and it didn’t look as if game was any better at getting women into bed than just approaching a lot of women would be.  I really have no dog in that fight.  I’ve never said game doesn’t work on good girls.  I don’t even really care about that issue, to be honest with you.

Still, if more feminine and traditional women meant less sleeping around, it wouldn’t mean taking “pay cut” for most game aware men, because while they might have less quantity, they’d have better quality. They’d still be at the top of the market, even if it’s a different market.

Once again, I have to ask – better quality for what?  What incentive is there for a woman to make herself better quality for a man who is only offering to use up a bit of her youth while investing nothing in her in return?  I know it isn’t men’s fault that women are willing to engage in this kind of deal, and so I don’t particularly blame men like Runsonmagic for taking advantage of the situation, but telling women they need to re-embrace traditional sex roles in order to make themselves more attractive for short-term dating and sex strikes me as complaining about the fact that the free beer isn’t cold enough.

I lay the blame for the mess we’re in pretty heavily at women’s feet (ah, but really it’s the fault of the cultural elites and their fiat dollarz, lzozlzozl), but I’ll be darned if I’m going to tell them to gussy themselves up in order to be more attractive to users.  I advise them to improve themselves while keeping their legs shut until they are married, and then to keep their pretty legs wide open for their husbands after marriage.

Pick-up artists aren’t change agents. They are simply rational actors in a particular type of market.

I agree.  Our society – by fiat redistribution of resources – has incentivized pick up artistry and disincentivized traditional husbandry. I don’t expect pick up artists to be change agents at all.  Neither do I agree with feminists that most pick up artists are misogynistic pscyho-rapists.  They accept what is on offer and try to convince more girls to offer them what they want.    PUAs have been helpful to me in identifying what the problems in our current culture – and in our churches – are and what needs to be done to fix those problems, and they’ve generally been darn nice about talking to me, so I’m not going to complain overly much about them.  It wouldn’t do any good to complain about them anyway because they don’t care what I think about their lifestyle.  My goal is to teach women to be good wives – pretty, feminine, loyal, sexually-generous, good mothers, and selfless helpers – and to avoid being players’ prey.

There is no social reward for male fidelity or being a provider in the present sexual marketplace.

I agree, there really isn’t much social reward for this.  Men who offer it have been getting kicked in the teeth by a system that is set against them thanks to feminism and even worse, Christo-feminism.  However if we are talking about how to fix the situation, we must also acknowledge that in a sexual marketplace where there is no male fidelity or providership, there is no incentive for women to do anything to cultivate their traditional femininity. We’re in a bit of a stalemate situation here, wouldn’t you agree?  I don’t have the whole solution, but what I’ve been telling women is to go first.  Return to seeking marriage when you are young; stay chaste; seek your husband’s good; be loyal to your man.  Will some women end up getting hurt by this?  Maybe, but it’s unlikely to be even close to the number of men who’ve been hurt in our current system, which is unworkable in the long-term.

Most of the traditionalists criticizing PUAs for their behavior have the luxury of being married, women, or having gone MGTOW and given up on the sexual marketplace entirely. In other words, they don’t have to live any of the advice they’re giving.

This depends on the traditionalist.  Being married isn’t exactly a luxury; it’s a conscious choice in a culture that is actively hostile to traditional marriage.

I’m sure it’d be easier for the traditionalists if all the single men just “manned up” and did what they were told without any incentives or reward.

It would be better for the sort of slick pastors who masquerade as traditionalists but who are really feminist-enablers exhorting betatized men to marry the thirty-something, used-up careerist sluts.  It would not be easier or better for those of us who are serious about a functional, healthy society which enables people to get all of what they need and some of what they want.  Much of the focus of my blog has been on encouraging women to make traditional marriage rewarding for men who want that.

I’ve lived as the blue-pill traditionalists suggested. It lead to loneliness and unhappiness. Now that men are taking the red pill en mass, traditionalists are suddenly saying “well, it game but don’t do it.”

Personally I haven’t particularly objected to game nor have I supported the use of game; what I’ve objected to is Christian men going to pick up artists for advice on how to get or maintain marriage.  However, I also don’t advise men to offer themselves up as living sacrifices on the altar of Churchian Christo-feminism. I’m atypical among Christians, unfortunately.  Much of what the modern Church encourages men to do definitely leads to those men being lonely and unhappy, and to no purpose because what they suggest doesn’t even honor God.

I actually want children and family someday. As I see it now, the best strategy is to become high status, have abundance with women, and eventually pull the best one from a traditional culture.

Telling men to go abroad to have sex with an abundance of traditionally-feminine women is simply using up the remaining dregs of social capital in their cultures.  You’ve gone to a place where the women are not yet totally degraded so that you can finish the job.  I am saying this in the most neutral way that I can, without judging your motivations or morality.  But this is what it is, so we might as well state that plainly.

The reason men want traditional sex roles is the same reason men learn game. It makes finding a high quality woman easier.

Finding high quality women for what purpose, though?  Aye, there’s the rub.  When you finish with her, sir, she is no longer a high quality woman.

What Runsonmagic – and perhaps the other RoK writers – are calling for strikes me more as pretend traditional sex roles for the purpose of making sex more fun.  I agree that traditional sex roles make sex more fun, the way frosting makes cake tastier, but when you base those roles on short-term sexual relationships, they lose all meaning and they are just a charade.  Once sex is over, the roles will have to be dropped if they aren’t truly part of the social fabric.  A society founded on egalitarian sex roles discourages family formation and thus is doomed to fail because there will be an unsustainably low birthrate; traditional sex roles, in addition to making sex more fun, also stabilize society by enhancing family formation, but such roles involve significant responsibilities for both sexes.  Runsonmagic just wants to lick the frosting off the cake (or multiple cakes, as the case may be).

Here is my analysis of the situation:

The only way that it is safe for women to engage in traditional sex roles – keeping the home, nurturing the young, caring for the old, ministering to the sick and the poor – is if they can depend on the support of a husband and kin network.  And the only way it’s safe for men to engage in traditional sex roles – providing for and protecting women and children – is if their investment in their families is protected from destruction and theft by corporations, governments, and the women themselves.

Tomorrow I will outline what I believe needs to happen, legally and socially, for it to be possible for traditional sex roles to return at the society-wide level.

302 thoughts on “What both sexes need in order to make traditional sex roles workable.

  1. TimberStJames

    So in the absence of civility and/or monogamy, the default position is most child-bearing women are with a few king/ruler men. Post child-bearing women serve/nurture the broader family while the non-mating/ruling men are essentially day labor. Or slaves.

    Isn’t that pretty close to many pre-Christian cultures for the last 12,000 years or so? It’s almost as though the 1950s traditional sex role idea is a tiny blip on the timeline of human history. What could possibly happen to allow it to continue…?

    I will stay tuned to tomorrow’s post.

  2. Cautiously Pessimistic

    I’ve objected to is Christian men going to pick up artists for advice on how to get or maintain marriage.

    Bank robbers rob banks ’cause that’s where the money is. Christian husbands learn about attraction from PUAs for the same reason; usually after being horribly warped by the advice of their parents, churches, and social outlets.

    I’ll certainly agree that Christian husbands shouldn’t need to go to PUAs for relationship advice, but that’s where the money is.

  3. sunshinemary Post author

    OK, I think I’ve found all the typos, but if you spot one, I’d be obliged if you pointed it out.

    Rollo, is it your belief that a woman needs to experience lotsa cokcas in order to figure out which are the quality ones?

  4. Farm Boy

    I don’t have the whole solution, but what I’ve been telling women is to go first

    The law should go first.

  5. earl

    I can’t appreciate a good stabbing to the heart until I’ve had sufficiently stabbed many of them.

    And who cares if I damage another heart in the process…it’s not like I was going to commit to it anyway.

  6. sunshinemary Post author

    By the way, everyone assumes I have it out for PUAs. I haven’t. Frankly, I think they understand these dynamics much better than most people do. They’ve found a way to exploit that. It isn’t moral, but I don’t really blame them for taking what they can get.

    Still, when it comes to traditional sex roles, this is an area where I can agree with them on a number of points. It’s a mistake to see people as fully your enemy when in fact you have areas of agreement that you can work from. State your areas of disagreement plainly and don’t be a sucker is my motto.

  7. Farm Boy

    I wonder if the “best’ way for a fella to have children is to impregnate a woman and then not marry her. He would have to pay child support, but not half or more of his assets. Furthermore, he might be able to negotiate visitation rights.

  8. Aquinas Dad

    Hmmmm. Shorter Runsonmagic seems to be
    “We would love to take advantage of any increase in quality of women but no, we don’t want traditional gender roles for ourselves”

    Cautiously Pessimistic,
    Your analogy is akin to telling a friend that wants to invest for retirement to learn how to rob banks. Bank robbers may occasionally acquire money but they don’t *generate wealth* and their methods are *inherently immoral*.
    Further, you are falling for a false dichotomy. The world is not ‘”game” vs nothing’. As I mentioned in other places PUAs and other “game” advocates dismiss men who are successful without “game” as ‘natural alphas’ and urge people to ignore us. Why? Well, in short, people who reject game and yet are successful don’t have anything to teach others!
    Laughable.

    SSM,
    I think that the details on *if* “game” works and, if so, how well are much more key than you may think. After all PUAs, etc., target a fairly narrow demographic of women. If even within that tightly targeted group their [cough] ‘success rate’ is under 10% then arguments that ‘it works on ‘good girls’ are virtually meaningless since it doesn’t work on the vast majority of women AT ALL. It would be like selling a really expensive bullet that only comes in .117 and only kills varmints under two pounds and then proudly claiming ‘and it works on black squirrels, too!’. Who cares? It is still not worth the cost.

  9. runsonmagic (@runsonmagic)

    Thanks for the reply. It’s helped me clarify a few things.

    First, you assume a woman who just sleeps with me gets no value. Women love sex. Women are the ones driving hook-up culture, and getting the most value of it.

    An woman who spends one night with me is getting a significant amount of value, perhaps more than I am. I make her laugh, show her a good time, and give her mind-blowing sex, whereas she mostly just does the latter.

    The idea that one-night stands only benefit men is a Christian myth. Most polyamorous communities are driven by women.

    Second, you assume men interested in pickup are only interested in sex. If that was the case, we’d all be using the hashtag #backtothebedroom instead of #backtothekitchen.

    The idea “high quality woman” just means “pretty packaging for a hole” assumes men are just walking glands, with only one interest. Sex is high on my interests, but not the only one.

    I have female friends, some of whom are older and even grandmothers, who I keep around simply for their perspective and wisdom. If it was the case men were only interested in sex, I also wouldn’t be talking to you, because you don’t offer any sexual value to me.

    The women I’ve had long-term relationships with are women who could connect with me on other levels. Part of the reason we are holding traditional sex roles week is that the number of women who offer anything more than sex is rapidly shrinking.

    As a man, my value doesn’t decrease with sexual experience. In fact, the most common romance novel scenario is a woman who wins over and changes a powerful alpha.

    The objection that men need to take traditional roles first seems like when women give dating advice to “be nice” or “be a gentlemen.” In reality women only want the attractive alpha to behave that way. If I was a dull man incapable of creating attraction, you’d be telling me to be more dangerous.

    The fact women respond to game by wanting men to become traditional means it’s working. Expect one of your readers to “win him over” and tell you “he’s different now” when I’m ready to to start a family and have kids.

  10. deti

    “Christian husbands shouldn’t need to go to PUAs for relationship advice, but that’s where the money is.”

    Well, it was until about a month ago.

    Deepstrength.wordpress.com
    Check out Chad’s new site too.
    Donalgraeme is all over this too at his place.

  11. sunshinemary Post author

    Rollo is my favorite serpent.

    Yes, but the thing with Rollo is that I understand his goal better now that I’ve interacted with more men who are just so painfully clueless. I did not know how innocent and foolish men could be. So while I don’t agree with Rollo on many, many points, I really appreciate the fact that he’s all but force-feeding some harsh reality to men who desperately need it. Fools aren’t more moral than wise men. A wise man needs to first see reality and then choose the moral course. Wise as serpents, innocent as doves, friends.

  12. Aquinas Dad

    Rollo,
    so – how much paste did you eat as a kid? No, really! Based on your argument you must have eaten a lot, plus some cardboard, to recognize a good burger. And I shudder to think what you put yourself through before you could enjoy brandy!
    :-)

  13. Farm Boy

    The only way that it is safe for women to engage in traditional sex roles – keeping the home, nurturing the young, caring for the old, ministering to the sick and the poor – is if they can depend on the support of a husband and kin network

    Sandra Fluke is running for Congress. She thinks otherwise.

  14. sunshinemary Post author

    @ Runson
    Thank you for your response. Let me consider your words before I reply. I think you’ve raised some good points which may delve into areas where I have little experience. I married relatively young and have been married for almost 23 years, so I only know about casual sex/ONSs on the theoretical level (mostly what I read around the manosphere and hear from women).

  15. sunshinemary Post author

    Oh, I never made the argument that PUAs don’t want traditional roles; that was others who made that argument. I think you do want traditional roles, but for your own ends. I am not passing judgement on that (though naturally I have an opinion on it).

  16. deti

    @ Aquinas Dad:

    “PUAs and other “game” advocates dismiss men who are successful without “game” as ‘natural alphas’ and urge people to ignore us. Why? Well, in short, people who reject game and yet are successful don’t have anything to teach others!”

    Bullshit. That is NOT the “natural alpha” objection. You are misrepresenting it, completely.

    The problem with most “naturals” is not that they are naturals or that they learned intersexual relationships skills without resort to Game or PUAs. The problem with most naturals is the “JUST GET IT” and “not my problem” attitudes they espouse, as well as their mockery and sneering at men less gifted than they. Dannyfron504, Rollo and LaidNYC are notable exceptions.

    Another thing that boils my blood is the righteous Christian naturals who have stood back and picked their asses, doing nothing to teach younger men while Rome is literally burning all around them.

    By all means, AD, if you’ve got something to teach, TEACH IT. If you have something more or different to show, then I’m all eyes and ears.

  17. earl

    “State your areas of disagreement plainly and don’t be a sucker is my motto.”

    Very well.

    PUAs see women as objects for their own pleasure. Then get surprised, butthurt, or fall into despair when women treat them as objects via their hypergamy. Like those consequencs just magically appeared. Well PUA you created that woman. Blame society, the media, churches, or the herd if you want…but none of those people put a gun to your head and told you to have casual sex with her. Passing the blame isn’t just a woman thing.

    I see them as human beings. They have baggage just like I do…but it is up to me to not dump another bag of my garbage and issues onto her.

  18. earl

    I appreciate the advice Rollo gave me about how things work…now I want to help him on how to not fall into despair because of it.

    Knowledge doesn’t save you from despair…it only provides a thin layer of protection from it.

  19. Aquinas Dad

    SSM,
    Good point. I don’t hate anyone, let alone PUAs. They strike me as, well, angry about how they were treated in the past. But rejecting what you perceive as wrong does not mean that that which you instead embrace is good. Is feminism corrosive? Sure. Are certain social and cultural institutions attempting to marginalize men? Yup. Are many Protestant sects and individual Catholic and Orthodox churches ‘feminized’ top some degree, some worse than others. Yeah. Do these factors, plus a number of others, impact the ability of individuals to meet, marry, have children, and form a family? Absolutely. Is this leading to broader cultural and social decline? Yes.
    Is the answer to gleefully join in by actively participating in the moral decline and aiding women, including some who would otherwise resist social pressures, into immorality?
    Hell, no!
    PUAs seem to think they are Major Kong riding a nuke. They are really more akin to little kids saying naughty words because everyone else is. They are, in the end, just an outgrowth of feminism and are contributing to the end goals of feminism.
    I largely feel sorry for the poor devils, I guess.

  20. Farm Boy

    women treat them as objects via their hypergamy. Like those consequencs just magically appeared. Well PUA you created that woman..

    Hypergamy is built-in.

  21. Amanda

    I’m kind of on the fence about whether or not I blame puas for taking advantage. It’s sort of the same as people who cheat and take advantage of welfare. Because they can. I think we all bear some personal responsibility for being a taker, so to speak. But I get where you are coming from — sinners are going to sin, especially when it’s so easy and incentivized. Excellent post!

  22. deti

    AD:

    To be clear:

    I don’t have one single iota of a problem if folks like you and Zippy say “Just get it” and “not my problem”.

    If you honestly believe it’s not your job to teach men about intersexual relationships and human nature, that’s fine.

    If you believe churches shouldn’t do it either because it’s not their job, OK, all well and good.

    If you just feel like you don’t have the time or inclination to teach men, that’s great.

    If that’s the case, then STFD and STFU, and get the hell out of the way while other men do what you either cannot or will not do.

    Don’t complain about the way it’s being taught or the subject matter being taught.

    If you don’t like what the PUAs teach, then DO IT YOURSELF.

  23. sunshinemary Post author

    What Rollo recommends is immoral, yet I appreciate some of what he is doing. Why? Well, read this.

    WapitiMail: A Prayer Request for a Young Brother

    My youngest brother is 21 years old. For the last 3 years, he’s been dating a girl who is about 3 – 4 years younger than he is. I have never liked her very much, but for some reason my family has been very supportive of their relationship because she encouraged my brother to be closer to our parents. Whenever I saw her, I found her to be very condescending in how she talked to my brother.

    Over the summer, she left the state to visit her mother. In that time, she had a relationship with another man (he was 27!!!) My brother found out about it, and after a LOT of convincing from the family, finally broke up with her. It lasted maybe 2 weeks before he was back with her, and about 2 months ago, he called all his family members and very excitedly announced she was pregnant. He was so sweet about it and so excited – he wants to be a dad so badly.

    When they found out how far along she was, it became very clear that the baby did NOT belong to my brother, but he wanted to marry her (she said no), sign the birth certificate anyway, and stay with her (she was ok with those…) It took us weeks of prayer and talking to him for him to finally break up with her AGAIN (around Christmas). And he was so incredibly depressed, he avoided his entire family during that time. Somehow, [she] managed to get herself into another relationship at the time, which only made it worse as our family celebrated a wedding. Its been 2 weeks since the wedding, and my brother is now back with her.

    I’m so afraid for him, because I know what she can do to him. I also know the longer he continues this relationship, the more likely he WILL have children with her, and the more it will tear him apart when she finally DOES leave – with HIS children.

    My brother is so incredibly strong willed. He has a very rocky relationship with our parents because of this – he will only do something if it is HIS idea, but he is so illogical and so emotionally driven, his ideas are rarely ever sound and it has resulted in MANY occasions of parents vs him.

    You guys think I’m batting for Team Woman and that I’ll always side with the women, but you are wrong. When I read stuff like that, I feel sick at how this young man’s foolishness is being exploited by a predatory female (just as much as when a foolish woman is exploited by a predatory male). Yes, Rollo can lead you to nihilism, but at least he can point out enough of reality so that young men like that one will stop making idiotic victims of themselves.

    Of course, the Bible tells us the same information, doesn’t it, in Ecclesiasts 7:15-17, 24-26:

    15 In this meaningless life of mine I have seen both of these:

    the righteous perishing in their righteousness,
    and the wicked living long in their wickedness.
    16 Do not be overrighteous,
    neither be overwise—
    why destroy yourself?
    17 Do not be overwicked,
    and do not be a fool—
    why die before your time?

    “I am determined to be wise”—
    but this was beyond me.
    24 Whatever exists is far off and most profound—
    who can discover it?
    25 So I turned my mind to understand,
    to investigate and to search out wisdom and the scheme of things
    and to understand the stupidity of wickedness
    and the madness of folly.
    26 I find more bitter than death
    the woman who is a snare,
    whose heart is a trap
    and whose hands are chains.
    The man who pleases God will escape her,
    but the sinner she will ensnare.

  24. Aquinas Dad

    Deti,
    I do appreciate that you are pointing to Deep Strength, etc. Well done.

    “By all means, AD, if you’ve got something to teach, TEACH IT. If you have something more or different to show, then I’m all eyes and ears.”
    I disagree. In many other threads than this when I start to explain, or even give lists of advice it is typically you, yourself, that tells me (and others) that I ‘have nothing to teach’ because I am a ‘natural alpha’. Heck, the reason I started looking for the dismissal other places is that you were so aggressive in its use on me!
    Of course, you think the enjoinder ‘learn to be virtuous’ is a call to ‘be yourself’.
    Hardly.
    Shall I once again copy the list of Catholic organizations I am personally engaged with that actively teach Christian masculinity? It would be, what? The third time I have posted it for you? How about that list of books (also again)? Or basic advice on the beginnings of learning self-control (also, again)?
    Deti, you have shown me multiple times that in addition to appearing angry you appear to have a selective memory for things that challenge your views on Christian mentorship and ‘natural alphas’.
    I am not trying to be offensive, I am just tired of hearing your repeat the same things over and over after I give you example after example.
    [note: get The Imitation of Christ and the Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius. Start there.]

  25. Farm Boy

    you can’t truly appreciate quality until you’ve had sufficient quantity.

    That is where older relatives came in.

  26. Aquinas Dad

    Deti,
    *sigh*.
    You do have a short memory. I started reading all this and participating in this because I am, as I know I have mentioned to you before, writing a book.
    The book is an outgrowth of the presentations I give.
    And from my work as a theologian.
    I *am* teaching this after about a decade of thought and research into masculinity, sovereignty, authority, and family and about a year looking at “game” in particular. I am actively giving lectures to men and women and am starting a series for teens and their parents this month.
    This is not a secret. I know you have been in other threads on other blogs where this has been discussed.
    I have never said ‘just get it'; I firmly believe it is the responsibility of the Church, and I have been active in this for years.
    In short – slide your chair back, take three deep breaths, and relax. I am not your enemy.

  27. sunshinemary Post author

    @Amanda

    I’m kind of on the fence about whether or not I blame puas for taking advantage. It’s sort of the same as people who cheat and take advantage of welfare. Because they can.

    The funny thing is, in my post from several weeks ago, when I suggested that men would have to band together to protect their tribe from predatory men (“Vikings”), exactly zero PUAs objected to that. Other men objected to it, but the PUAs were mostly like, “Yep. They’d have to. Doesn’t appear like they ever will, though.”

    [Side note: Now, all of this conversation is totally separate from the reality of the condition of PUAs' souls. They by and large don't care about that subject, but Christians are obligated to care about everyone's souls and to present the truth to them. I cannot provide moral cover for sexual sin because to do so endangers that person's immortal soul. Therefore it is obligatory for me now to point out that fornication and adultery aren't just bad for society. Unrepented sin = eternity in hell.]

  28. Amanda

    SSM

    My brother-in-law was like that man in your example. He took up with some woman he met on the Internet who lied about her age and use of birth control to get pregnant by him because she found out he had a trust fund. He pays child support now and never gets to see his son, as she quickly moved away. Some of this was his fault, though, for being so stubborn in the face of warnings and admonitions from his family and especially his brother, my husband. He was determined to do what he wanted, live a life of sin, and did not have an ear to hear otherwise. It sounds like this family is trying to reach this guy, and he just won’t listen. The price for pride and foolishness is very expensive sometimes.

  29. Ton

    Women are not the prey of players, they are right there playing their own games.

    Women respond to masculinty. Don’t matter the woman. The type of masculinity matters but not the gal. But this is one of those lies betas love to hold on to.

    A man in despair needs to check his man parts.

  30. earl

    “Of course, the Bible tells us the same information, doesn’t it”

    Ecclesaties also says that even those things are this way…to still enjoy your labor and fruits from God.

    Ecclesaties 8:14-15

    “There is futility which is done on the earth, that is, there are righteous men to whom it happens according to the deeds of the wicked. On the other hand, there are evil men to whom it happens according to the deeds of the righteous. I say that this too is futility. So I commended pleasure, for there is nothing good for a man under the sun except to eat and to drink and to be merry, and this will stand by him in his toils throughout the days of his life which God has given him under the sun.”

    Reading enough red pill blogs, MGTOW forums, divorce rape and hypergamy stories, deti comments…it makes me wonder if they have any enjoyment in life anymore.

  31. deti

    “ Women are not the prey of players, they are right there playing their own games.”

    Heh. True words. No woman gets with a player or a cad unless she wants to. If sex is the price of admission, she’ll pay it. Period. Full stop.

  32. Ton

    Well Earl, to most of those men, there is no fruit to their labor. Ex wives get it, the tax man gets it, they get no dates, the church and society condemns them for merely being men and God is sitting on the sidelines, doing whatever it is He does but generally being of no help.

    One of the many things modern Christians get way wrong is prayer and what it accomplished or how often God responds/ cares

  33. Rollo Tomassi

    @SSM, In my own defense I’ll have been married for 18 years in July in what I think most guys would consider an excellent “traditional” marriage. I have been an unwitting PUA, a beta chump, an Alpha, a father, a husband, an author, an artist, a scholar, an entertainer, an athlete and a businessman. Half of what I know about what I write about women I learned from enjoying women and being destroyed by women. The other half is from living with a woman and raising one.

    Who do you think has better grasp on the nature and psychology of women, the feminine imperative and the social implications of the past 60 years of feminization, RooshV or Mark Driscoll? If a man were to be set on marrying a woman – despite all odds and a feminine-primary world aligned against him – who’s understanding of women would make for better advice?

    @Earl, it all depends on what quality you hope find a better appreciation of. If your goal is to develop a better appreciation of heart stab wounds then there’s really only one way to find out now isn’t there? When I was dealing with the living hell of trying to figure out the BPD girl in my 20’s, I was in the pit of beta misery. It was easily one of the worst experiences of my life for 4 long years, but that experience gave me some of the insight I use to write today and help other guys deal with (or hopefully avoid altogether) a similar situation or woman.

    So, who would you rather have as a drug abuse counsellor, a former addict who’s gone through the hell of an addiction and come out on top, or a guy with a certificate from all the books he’s read about being addicted?

  34. sunshinemary Post author

    Ton:

    Women are not the prey of players, they are right there playing their own games.

    It’s true in a way that they aren’t the prey of players in the larger sense. What feminism has done (Ah, but who invented feminism again?) is sell an entire life-myth to women, and this lie is what they really are the prey of. Part of how modern young women act out that life-myth is by having faux-careers and slutting around instead of marrying and having children. Each of us is morally responsible for our own sins; the woman for hers and the man for his.

    However, if game overcomes a woman’s anti-slut defenses, as players purport, then perhaps players do in some sense prey on women’s weakness. But it’s not always easy to separate out the strands of who is the player and who is the played in the modern SMP and MMP.

  35. theshadowedknight

    SSM, you are doing it again. Tisk, tisk.

    Men are not going to Heartiste or Krauser for relationship advice. They are looking for advice on how to attract a woman, to create a possibility of a relationship. If they want relationship advice they go to Athol, Ironwood, or Rollo. An atheist, a pagan, and a philosopher, but not players. No one else is offering anything that actually works.

    The only Christian offering the kind of advice those men needed for maintaining relationships was Keoni Galt, and he got it from Heartiste. Even he did not cover leading into attraction and relationship formation. The rest watched, and let it happen.

    Just like with the church, they let it get out of control, allowing it to become a monster. Now they come off their chairs to beat on the young men who “just don’t get it” and demand respect and obeisance. Their advice failed, and they refuse to face that. Until they admit that, the pickup artists and those learning from them are the only source of useful information.

    That is what is happening. Donal, DS, Chad, and the rest are taking what the pickup artists taught and sanitizing it. After stripping it of the immoral sections and replacing them with Christian alternatives, they turn it out. They are not going out and doing the approaches and the observations that lead to the knowledge base they use. No, the Christians were content to sit by while, as Deti says, Rome burned. Now they sit here and criticize the waterbearers.

    The Shadowed Knight

  36. Cautiously Pessimistic

    @deti- Deepstrength.wordpress.com
    Check out Chad’s new site too.
    Donalgraeme is all over this too at his place.

    Thanks, Deti. I’ll check them out.

    @ssm- A wise man needs to first see reality and then choose the moral course.

    I agree, and this is a problem I have with most of the Christian game/relationship sites I’ve visited. They do not teach reality, they teach padded reality. Because teaching reality might lead to temptation or uncomfortable conclusions. Much better to fudge a bit so the answers are safe and the advice obvious.

    That attitude is what got us here. I have little patience with it. And it’s why sites like Dalrock and SSM are valuable to me. They might be wrong, but they won’t sugar-coat what they believe to be true.

    Give me unfiltered information, and trust that I will act morally on it. Or don’t. I don’t care. But if I feel like the info I’m getting has been pre-filtered to lead me by the nose, I’m off.

  37. Entropy is my god

    The truth of how we return to traditional sex roles is a return to traditional life. Screech, harpies and techno savants alike. Screech, unrepentant poolside loungers. Pray your blasphemous payers to your god of convenience. Your prayers ascend to your lecherous and evil deity like the steam from a bowel movement on a snowy day.

    Our society is jezebel, we are forced at gunpoint to worship female depravity, forced to pay for degenerate scum to worship Moloch with child sacrifices. The blood of government funded abortions stains the hand of everyone who does not hope and pray for the end of our wretched, tyrannically sick soul destroying government. We are forced to lose our children to state indoctrination at the hand of Pink hearted, blue shirted, jack boot wearing thugs. We are forced to send children into prison like mental retardation camps espousing transgender perversion, atheist nihilism, and a decidedly anti-white view of history.

    We are worse than Sodom and Gomorrah and none of us are righteous, not a single one (Rom 3:10). For those who will go on to screech about how they are different they are, all of your so called righteousness is a filthy rag (ISA 64:6).

    We are all like that. We are all responsible. We all deserve the ruination and damnation that is coming to us. Polish the brass and reorganize the deck chairs on the titanic of intersexual relations. There is no hope for our destitute and wretched society and we should be happy about that. The sooner it dies the better.

  38. Bike Bubba

    Personally, while I’m aware of the damage our government is doing (and will go to the caucuses to work against it tonight), as well as the damage of feminism (I read my mom’s copies of Ms. magazine while a teen), I recoil at the idea that there are insufficient reasons to choose a traditional lifestyle. It takes some work, sure, but are we to pretend that the date do not exist that show that those who marry have more and better sex, and that those who were more chaste prior to marriage have more and better sex than those who were less chaste? Are we to pretend that there aren’t nearly 30 STDs out there, only one of which is consistently stopped by a condom?

    Seriously, 1 Cor. 7 indicates that a lot of men and women need sex. Video games and blow up dolls are not a substitute for marriage. So while we work to tick off the gender feminists and fix the laws, let’s not forget to talk about the goodness of what we’ve got. No?

  39. Ton

    Women want their anti slut defense overwhelmed SSM. It proves she is submitting to a worthy man. ( in theory)

    From what I can tell, game is really about men getting out of their own way and not making to many mistakes vs tricks to over come the anti slut defense…. I think. I’ve never had to deal with most of what is discussed so I am taking a guess.

  40. Nathan

    @Rollo, although unneeded, a thank you from this quarter. Your book produced a paradigm shift in me that brought me out of a moderate depression

  41. deti

    AD:

    I remembered you saying you are writing a book based on your theological knowledge and your presentations.

    Welcome to the party, where PUAs, MRAs, MGTOWs and other “red pill” neoreactionary Dark Enlightenment sorts are about 10 years ahead of you in sorting through the wreckage. By the way, it’s wreckage that your Church and mine stood by and watched while feminist kamikazes crashed plane after plane after plane into it in a full on Blitzkrieg assault (yes I know I’m mixing up metaphors, Deal.). Our Church could have done something about it; but instead it waved the planes into the softest targets and guided the Panzers to the easiest fortifications to break.

    Glad you’re finally here to help.

  42. Rollo Tomassi

    “PUAs and other “game” advocates dismiss men who are successful without “game” as ‘natural alphas’ and urge people to ignore us. Why? Well, in short, people who reject game and yet are successful don’t have anything to teach others!”

    Actually we call them self-righteous Betas:
    http://therationalmale.com/2011/12/07/the-horses-mouth/

    You see, when an AFC clings to the mental schemas that make up an AFC mindset it requires a constant need for affirmation and reinforcement, particularly in light of their glaring lack of verifiable success with women while clinging to, and behaving in accordance with the mindset. AFCs are crabs in a barrel – once one get to the top to climb out another drags him back in. The AFC needs other AFCs to affirm his blatantly obvious lack of success. He needs other AFCs to tell him, “don’t worry just be yourself” or “she’s just not a quality woman because she can’t see how great a guy you are.”

    So when an AFC finally does get a second date and then finally does get laid it becomes the ultimate validation for his mindset. “See, you just have to be a nice guy and the right ONE really does come along.” This is when the self-righteous phase begins and he can begin telling his Game / PUA friends that he’s “getting some” now without all the Positive Masculinity claptrap. In actuality he rationalizes away all of the conditions that lead up to him getting the girlfriend and the fundamental flaw that he’s settling for a woman “who’d fuck him”, but this doesn’t stop him from claiming a moral highground. His long wait is over and he’s finally hit paydirt.

  43. Ton

    I very much like reading Donal and DS, but I believe both are celibate. If so, and no disrespect, how much is their writing on these topics worth? Again I like and respect both those men, but practical matters are what they are

    For every survey about martial sex, there are many, many more men who’ve experience says otherwise. And the most of men not having sex outside of marriage cannot pull a date let alone create enough tingles to sign his life away to the mercy of the state and a woman. It’s a bogus argument

  44. Entropy is my god

    @ Rollo

    Those AFC’s are actively and knowingly prolonging and strengthening a disgusting and destructive system. There is no sympathy, there can be no sympathy, and there will be no sympathy for them. They are your enemies and should be treated as such. They worship the evil spirit of feminism as well. They have sold their soul and have nothing in return.

  45. sunshinemary Post author

    Women are the ones driving hook-up culture, and getting the most value of it.

    I’m pondering this. Are women really the ones “driving” the hook up culture? That doesn’t seem right to me. Wouldn’t that just be a small subset of sexually unrestricted women? Do women really get more out of casual sex than men do? Wasn’t there a big study recently that found that women don’t usually reach orgasm during casual sex?

  46. Entropy is my god

    @SSM

    You have very obviously chosen to not look at this objectively, as usual you have ignored 80% of men.

    The 20% of men who are Alpha and who have women fighting for them, yes they drive the hookup culture.

    For the 80% of women who can ride the carousel, they drive the hookup culture. The disgusting 80% of men and Disgusting 20% of women, who you clearly don’t care about or for or even acknowledge are not driving it.

  47. Aquinas Dad

    Shadowed Knight,
    I must admit I am flat-out tired of hearing a handful of people repeat ‘the church don’t teach nothin’ about no masculinity’.
    I beg to differ. Sure, sure, I’ve seen the links to some ‘pastor’ of a protestant non-denom congregation saying ‘it is all the husband’s fault’ – to his 12 families. But I am personally involved in a handful of real groups that actually teach masculinity.
    Whose anecdotes win?
    Now, since the world as a non-zero number of guys who reject game yet have traditional families, etc…..

  48. Deep Strength

    @ TSK

    That is what is happening. Donal, DS, Chad, and the rest are taking what the pickup artists taught and sanitizing it. After stripping it of the immoral sections and replacing them with Christian alternatives, they turn it out. They are not going out and doing the approaches and the observations that lead to the knowledge base they use. No, the Christians were content to sit by while, as Deti says, Rome burned. Now they sit here and criticize the waterbearers.

    Although JoJ is pro-game and most of us are anti-game (in some sense of the word) we have the same intentions just a different perspective on what “game” constitutes. We’re looking to serve God with our heart and follow God’s precepts and not to sin.

    I would say a decent portion of what I’ve learned is from JoJ, so we’re on the same page in terms of “Christian implementation of game” or “Christian masculinity” if you prefer even though were on opposite sides of the debate.

    @ Ton

    I very much like reading Donal and DS, but I believe both are celibate. If so, and no disrespect, how much is their writing on these topics worth? Again I like and respect both those men, but practical matters are what they are

    For every survey about martial sex, there are many, many more men who’ve experience says otherwise. And the most of men not having sex outside of marriage cannot pull a date let alone create enough tingles to sign his life away to the mercy of the state and a woman. It’s a bogus argument

    No one 70 years ago would argue that you can’t be a Christian man and be attractive.

    Somewhere along the line the fact that the church has feminized all Christian men, and the only “attractive” men now are PUAs/players/etc. means that people have the false assumption that you must be a jerk/asshole/etc. to be attractive to women.

    This is not the case.

  49. Bob Wallace

    There is a saying I learned as a teenager: “Sex with love is best. Sex without love is second-best.” I know enough PUAs to know they get bored and jaded. And I’ve slept with enough women to know that without any feelings for them you can’t wait until you get away from them…after about three times.

  50. Ton

    Pastors, priests etc use words to earn their bread. Not much in the way of masculinty in such men so they have no starting point to teach from. That is the churches root problem, professional preachers, pastors, priests etc.

  51. Zippy

    Who do you think has better grasp on the nature and psychology of women, the feminine imperative and the social implications of the past 60 years of feminization, RooshV or Mark Driscoll?

    Hah! There’s a false dichotomy for you. The Pervert or the Churchian, take your pick from the excrement buffet.

  52. sunshinemary Post author

    Seriously, this RoK twitter thing is bizarre.

    https://twitter.com/search?q=%23backtothekitchen&src=hash&f=realtime

    The young feminists have found #BackToTheKitchen and the scene is unreal. The PLAYERS are saying “We are concerned that you women are not happy. We are concerned that you have to work at your careers when you would probably rather have a husband and family. And women are giving away sex so easily…we are really concerned about how slutty you are making yourselves. You will be happier if you embrace the traditional roles of wife and mother.” And the WOMEN are shrieking about wanting their careers and embracing their right to be slutty, childless, and unmarried, accusing the players of trying to oppress them by suggesting that women don’t have to work at corporate drudgery if they bring something to the table that interests men in marriage…

    I’m at a loss for words. Up is down, black is white, in is out…

  53. Ton

    I’m not sure I am tracking you DS, but Christains sold out a lot longer then 70 years ago; life was much harsher, much more physically demanding, casual violence more accepted etc then now which gave men a chance everyday to show of their strength…. just not sure the comparison works like folks think because how soft life is these days.

  54. Aquinas Dad

    Deti,
    “Welcome to the party, where PUAs, MRAs, MGTOWs and other “red pill” neoreactionary Dark Enlightenment sorts are about 10 years ahead of you in sorting through the wreckage”
    LOLOL!
    Do you *really think* johnny-come-latelys like the Dark Enlightenment are oh-so-far ahead of real traditionalists? To me moldbug is a ‘new blogger about the counter-enlightenment’.
    As for what I’ve been doing for the last 15 years or so, let me repeat
    Reading, writing, teaching, giving lectures.
    Oh – and raising 5 sons. Mentoring godsons and god daughters. And helping with various Catholic organizations that teach authentic masculinity in person, for realsies.
    Need that list again?
    I am glad I took the time to look into “game” although I am just about done, I think.

  55. Ton

    Where was the real traditionalists when this stuff was building steem? No where. Now they want to have a voice? Weak sauce

  56. Aquinas Dad

    SSM,
    Is it ‘women’ or particular sub-cultures? For example, the sexual behavior of women changes dramatically from high school and college – with the college actually making a large difference. The larger the number of women in relation to men in college the more depraved the hookup culture *in general*. Do the women that attend them change because of the imbalance? Does the balance exist because of an existing culture? If we were to drastically change attendance would it change the behaviors?
    Hard to say.
    What we *do* know is that patterns of sexual behavior can be roughly divided in terms of religious devotion and that sexual promiscuity is indubitably bad for women across the board. Add in the very real benefits of marriage and of also avoiding divorce and you quickly see a sharp division between chaste women who marry and stay married AND THEIR FAMILIES and (essentially) everyone else.
    It appears that liberal social attitudes are (culturally) suicidal; – the women and their children that are part of it are poorer, less healthy, etc. and the effects are piling up over generations. Anything that encourages such behavior is therefore broadly harmful not just to the women and men involved but for all of us.

  57. lauratheringmistress

    @SSM, the more things change, the more they stay the same.

    “The world has gone mad today
    And good’s bad today,
    And black’s white today,
    And day’s night today,
    When most guys today
    That women prize today
    Are just silly gigolos …

    When mothers pack and leave poor father
    Because they decide they’d rather be tennis pros,
    Anything Goes. ”

    -Anything Goes, from the Cole Porter musical if the same name. 1934

  58. sunshinemary Post author

    I’m just watching this Twitter thing in horrified fascination.

    I’ve spoken strongly against women going with sexually promiscuous men. I’ve argued in favor of traditional sex roles, which are quite beneficial to women and aren’t particularly useful to sexually unrestricted men. Yet men like Runson will listen to my arguments and then respond politely, “Well, here is what you don’t understand. Here is what I think. Here is (insert rational – even if morally incorrect – argument).”

    Yet in reading my same argument for traditional sex roles, here is how feminists respond:

    So…that’s her argument against me. Just “Fuck Yourself”.

  59. FuzzieWuzzie

    I really do concur with the assertion that women do drive the sexual/marriage marketplace. At this point in time, they are definitely in the driver’s seat.
    How’s that working out for you, Society?

  60. Aquinas Dad

    Ton,
    Careful! As my father said ‘everyone who makes a broad generalization is an idiot’.
    One of my priests is an ex-boxer who spent years tending to Catholics in the Middle East. The other is a West Pointer and combat veteran who became a priest after his service. Care to tell either of them they aren’t masculine? Of course, they preach masculinity and the wives should be subordinate and according to a fair number of people no one does that, so maybe they aren’t real.
    I’ll ask them Sunday.

  61. Aquinas Dad

    Ton,
    Where were we? Screaming from the roof tops, pal! Hacking out spaces to keep things going; writing books, giving speeches, and warning everyone.
    Just because *you* are ignorant does not mean it doesn’t/didn’t exist.

  62. Farm Boy

    So…that’s her argument against me. Just “Fuck Yourself”.

    I would have said, “Make Sammiches”

  63. deti

    AD:

    Those Roman Catholic priests you just mentioned are the only Roman Catholic clergy I have EVER heard of who preach masculinity and wifely submission.

    Ever, In my life.

    Cue tradcon solipsism accusation in 3…..2……1…..

  64. Sarah's Daughter

    Did you read her page SSM, she is stressed out from her job “Being a barista is stresful enough”. She serves coffee, folks. She works in a….kitchen. Bah! Ha! Ha!

    [ssm: Bwahahahaha *whew*...Hey, I work in a kitchen, too - my own. And I'm not stressed out at all.]

  65. Cautiously Pessimistic

    @AD- Whose anecdotes win?

    The ones that do not directly contradict personal experience. Not yours, in other words.

  66. the bandit

    > Are women really the ones “driving” the hook up culture?

    You know the answer to this: If women are promiscuous, it pays men to be promiscuous.

  67. FuzzieWuzzie

    SSM, CrazyDaucshundLady’s response was knee jerk and not very erudite but, you committed the sin that feminists can’t forgive-you judged them.
    It’s a little like pouring water on the Wicked Witch of the West.

  68. FuzzieWuzzie

    Moving along with that line of thought, what may help would be to enlist the help of a lion and a tiger. You already have a bear.
    I don’t need to link this one. OH MY!

  69. the bandit

    Hmmm. Actually, as I think about it, it depends on whether you mean “drive” in the sense of “steer” or “power.” I think women power the hook-up culture, in both the sense that they consider it to be an empowering marker of status as well as the sense that many men will want to participate. I think an argument could be made that the alpha males direct the hook-up culture in the sense of leading women to behave more to their liking (easy sex without commitment).

  70. Chad

    “That is what is happening. Donal, DS, Chad, and the rest are taking what the pickup artists taught and sanitizing it. After stripping it of the immoral sections and replacing them with Christian alternatives, they turn it out. They are not going out and doing the approaches and the observations that lead to the knowledge base they use. No, the Christians were content to sit by while, as Deti says, Rome burned. Now they sit here and criticize the waterbearers.”

    To even think that the PUA’s or anyone that is of the opinion that ‘game will save society’ – the water bearers – baffles me. I’ve been there, I’ve done that. I’ve blogged my personal experiences when I was practicing game, and I blogged my experiences as a converted Catholic. I’ve made my blog private, mostly because I didn’t want to deal with the sin of gossip should people start linking back and forth between the two.

    As far as “game” goes, or being attractive with women….

    I’ll fully admit that my new blog only deals with being attractive to women in a round about fashion. Deep Strength’s and Donal’s seem as if they will be far, far more specific in terms of actions and how to be an attractive Christian Man.

    What I am doing, instead, is pursuing what make’s a man’s Godly Masculinity. To me, that is a pursuit of the virtues. I care about giving men a strength of God, and laying the foundations to make that happen. Rather than giving them ‘tools’ or ‘systems’ to apply to certain situations, I want to make them into forces of God so that they can apply God’s Will to whatever life they decide to lead. Being Catholic, I intend the path I foresee the site taking being of use for those that will be led to the cloth instead of to the alter. I believe that it will help men lead their families, their church, their communities, and at their work.

    I also publish all my articles to my personal facebook account, deal with screaming atheists, a few supportive Catholics, and then lead my Catholic friends to deeper pursuits of their Faith. I intend to use the website to springboard the men’s group at my church to include young boys, young adults, and family men. I think the lessons and guidance of the older men will help the young boys discern their vocation (priesthood or marriage), help the young men pursue the vocation (determine which part of the church they belong or help strengthen the virtues while lending practical assistance to jobs/careers), and help the older men keep stable families (Give them leadership positions, give them labor to help keep cost down, give them masculine outlets/activities, and most of all, give them a chance to ‘apprentice’ younger men). I’ve written out lesson plans, have weekend activity ideas, keep running word files of philosophy/theology/scriptural backings for the ideas, etc. I have at least 30 posts worth of lessons and wisdom I’ve taken notes on in the Old Testament as I go through it, and right now I just started 2 Kings.

    Most of all, I back up everything I do with action. I volunteer for every church event I can. I plan one or more outing a week with the 20-somethings. I regularly loan out books for the young men of the parish to read, and I follow up with if they’ve read them and what they thought of them.

    So, the site is a large part of all that. You could say that the site is a cornerstone on which the whole thing is turning right now, but really it’s the ideas behind the site which do that. From what I’ve seen and the responses I’ve gotten, women are attracted to me. They’re attracted to my drive, my ideas, my ideals. I’m not the deepest thinker, I’m not the most disciplined, I’m not the most devout, and I don’t make the most money. But I look for practical lessons in everything scriptural I read, and I act upon it. Masculinity is about action, and they notice that.

    So, if any of that at all sounds appealing to men, I’d encourage them to check out the site. If you’re looking for easy solutions or answers, my site will not be a source of them and I’d guess Deep Strength or Donal’s will be better suited to their desires. I regularly read each, link to them on my site, and believe we support each other wonderfully; we simply have different interests and focuses. I’m almost done with the basic outline of posts detailing how I believe all this goes together. After that, I’ll jump right into the lessons.

  71. Ton

    Apparently you were not screaming very loudly because no one heard you. The younger generation has earned the right to ignore you (& me).

    Everyone knows these masculine godly churches lead by real men…. yet no one else can find them….. I call bovine excrement.

    LOL Send them my way and I gladly will if they don’t measure up; here’s a tip to you, the west pointer is most likely two steps away from a guy on guy experience. Haven’t seen one worth damn in years upon years & the ones who were worth a damn were old men when I was young.

    Cannot recall the last priest I meet who wasn’t part of tearing down Westren civilization to some degree or another. So good luck there too

  72. tbc

    Blaming priests and pastors for failing to hold back the tide of feminism in the church is fairly silly. While not necessarily storming the barricades of masculinity every day, most pastors try to make the case for a biblical vision of marriage, BUT they don’t control legislation. Many of them spoke out against and campaigned against the liberalisation of divorce laws, but those laws were passed anyway. Same with abortion.

    And day by day they have the care of souls to contend with, so faced with rising tides of divorced people showing up on Sunday morning, what should they do? Tell them all to leave the church? And then the unmarried girl shows up pregnant and now, unlike before, abortion is a real option. What does he tell her? Where is the guy who got her pregnant? Oh that’s right he’s not in the church. These are the day to day issues that pastors deal with and they do it rather imperfectly.

    The problem with internet crusaders is that it is fairly easy to throw around theoretical grenades of blame of what ought to be done by whom and what so and so failed to do, but it doesn’t take seriously the fact that these issues are multi-faceted, interwoven and extremely complex. It’s not as simple as a ‘man-up’ sermon. And sure there are lots of churchian pastors who simply dodge the issues from fear. But most make some effort. Even Driscoll for all the criticism he draws in the manosphere, is virtually persona non grata in much of evangelical Christianity because he dares to say that (gasp!) men should lead their wives and wives should submit to their husbands. We live in a time where to even say such a thing sounds to most people like an endorsement of the husband dragging his wife by the hair out back and beating her with a two by four because she burned the toast.

    [ssm: Yes, this is all pretty true. Pastor Driscoll is considered absolutely right wing, woman-hating, and pro-male by everyone outside the manosphere. And I agree that Pastors are in a tough spot in terms of how to balance the compassion and mercy we are supposed to extend while also holding the line on morality. But it's one thing if an unsaved girl shows up pregnant, accepts Christ, repents, etc. It's another thing when the same single mother who claims Christ KEEPS getting knocked up.]

  73. tbc

    the job of the priest / pastor is not to build up western civilisation but to proclaim Christ. Western Civilisation is only a temporal thing and will pass away (just as Greek, Roman, Germanic, Celtic, Norse etc.,passed away). The proclamation of Christ continues until he comes.

    [ssm: That's true, but we need the biblical standard of morality as the basis for civilization in order for things to function well, so it's easy to see how there is an overlap there.]

  74. Farm Boy

    Give him the best of you. #backtothekitchen” #FuckYourself

    Perhaps she had, “Exploit the best of him” in mind.

    That would be difficult to justify. Hence the curt response.

  75. Herb

    What kind of deal is that?

    The opposite of the deal most women want men to take: work like slaves to support them only to be traded in (or never even approached, the support being taken via government) on the latest bad boy.

    In many ways the classic PUA is the ultimate feminist in that he’s applied feminism’s narcissism, just to the basest desires of men than women. As an adaptation to the environment I understand it but it’s a big reason I’ve always been uncomfortable with the mindset and even that of some non-PUA Game writers.

    PS. I’ve decided to start following the Orthodox fasting calendar and your pumpkin chili is on deck for Friday dinner.

  76. Rollo Tomassi

    @Rollo, although unneeded, a thank you from this quarter. Your book produced a paradigm shift in me that brought me out of a moderate depression

    Good to hear Nathan, glad I can help.

    Yes, Rollo can lead you to nihilism,..

    I’m sorry, what were you saying SSM?,..

  77. Herb

    telling women they need to re-embrace traditional sex roles in order to make themselves more attractive for short-term dating and sex strikes me as complaining about the fact that the free beer isn’t cold enough.

    Hit post too soon as this one fits with my post above.

    They’re only telling women what Kay Hymowitz et al, ie the culture at large, are telling men. I realize you aren’t telling men that but you’re not the women in their audience, I don’t think. The audience is the late 20 something CS master’s degree holder I knew who said she was ready to get married and start a family, had two men openly interested*, and yet decided to spend her time being a f**kbuddy to two guys, one a loser with a criminal record and the other the kind of natural PUA type guys say, “He’s great to hang out with but I won’t let him anywhere near my sister.” I think the telling them to re-embrace traditional sex roles is aimed at girls (and I use the word girls intentionally, they are not women) like her. Some are doing it in hopes it will help her see her mistakes. Others are doing it to have better quality easily used and discarded women.

    * I was one of them and our mutual social circle thought we were a good enough match there was a mix of efforts at matchmaking and assumptions that we were a couple. I know schadenfreude is a sin but I am looking forward to her hitting the wall which will be bad as she has that “I always looked 15″ thing (when I first met her I put her at 10 years younger than she was) so she won’t have the hot 20s just awkward teen straight to cougar.

  78. Rollo Tomassi

    most pastors try to make the case for a biblical vision of marriage,

    The problem with this is that these pastor’s interpretations of Biblical marriage was co-opted and realigned to better serve the feminine imperative before most of them were born. When the Feminine Imperative is the Holy Spirit and women are “lightyears closer to God” than men, you’ll have to pardon my being incredulous of any contemporary pastor’s interpretation of what Biblical marriage is.

    I seem to recall a post where SSM quietly whispered to HHG about how her pastor was a coward.

  79. runsonmagic (@runsonmagic)

    @sunshinemary
    ” Wasn’t there a big study recently that found that women don’t usually reach orgasm during casual sex?”

    I’ve had multiple women tell me “I can’t orgasm, but don’t worry, I’m still having fun.”

    I used to really want to give them pleasure, but women found it annoying. Now I agree with Roosh:
    http://www.rooshv.com/it-doesnt-matter-if-she-orgasms-or-not
    http://www.rooshv.com/the-female-orgasm-is-trivial

    Also, your edit –
    “Runsonmagic just wants to lick the frosting off the cake (or multiple cakes, as the case may be).”
    – gave me the best mental images. Nom nom nom

  80. Donna Sposata diMaria

    @Rollo Tomassi: “The problem with the quality vs. quantity will always be that you can’t truly appreciate quality until you’ve had sufficient quantity.”

    OK, I don’t know anybody here well enough here to know if you’re stating a principle, or making a joke. Or both. I also don’t know your frame of reference (Christian or not). Oh, well. I’ll react to this anyway. If I end up sounding dumb, well, so be it! It’ll hardly be the first time. :)

    I’ve always believed that following God’s way is the way to happiness. I think, though, that because most of us never actually try it (at least not from the get-go), we never have the experience God intended for us to have.

    Now, maybe when it comes to fine wine or chocolate, a broader sampling does a better job of informing the palate; but I don’t think sex works quite the same way.

    Far from making it possible to know true quality only in comparison, “quantity” poisons the well, in my view. True “quality” comes not from hitting the jackpot (after apparently hitting on everything else), but from the experience of dedicating oneself, for better or for worse, to another in Christian marriage. Quality comes through the ripening of time and experience of the one couple, then, not merely (or even, at all) through the experience of multiple non-committed relationships (or, well, hits.)

    Actually, I think this is true, by God’s grace, even if you haven’t been perfect coming in. God’s grace really does begin its work the moment you turn to Him and open your heart to receive it.

    So, even if you started off on the wrong foot, or you have an N>1, salvation, and then the possibility of experiencing genuine quality, becomes possible. (From an individual’s perspective, rather than as a principle to be sought after, that is.) But the previous “quantity” is, and will always be, still poison, and it makes the road to *true* quality fraught with pain and confusion that never needed to be.

    If only.

    So, I dunno. I only have a very tentative grasp of the concept of game to begin with, and I’m only beginning to genuinely put submission as a concept into practice in my marriage, so what do I know? But if something works *because of who we fundamentally are* as men and women, whether you call it game or not, then by definition it’s of God, and will only work to bring true happiness if it’s done in God’s way.

    [ssm: Naturally I agree with you. Christians are not supposed to chase after a quantity of uncommitted sexual partners. Even the polygynous patriarchs in the OT were actually married to their wives and supported their concubines.]

  81. earl

    “Well Earl, to most of those men, there is no fruit to their labor. Ex wives get it, the tax man gets it, they get no dates, the church and society condemns them for merely being men and God is sitting on the sidelines, doing whatever it is He does but generally being of no help.

    One of the many things modern Christians get way wrong is prayer and what it accomplished or how often God responds/ cares”

    @Ton

    Well it’s all explained in Matthew 6 when it comes to prayer. And I’ll leave this part about which fruits to pursue.

    “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal; for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
    “The eye is the lamp of the body; so then if your eye is clear, your whole body will be full of light. But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!” Matthew 6: 19-23

  82. Elspeth

    The problem with internet crusaders is that it is fairly easy to throw around theoretical grenades of blame of what ought to be done by whom and what so and so failed to do, but it doesn’t take seriously the fact that these issues are multi-faceted, interwoven and extremely complex. It’s not as simple as a ‘man-up’ sermon. And sure there are lots of churchian pastors who simply dodge the issues from fear. But most make some effort. Even Driscoll for all the criticism he draws in the manosphere, is virtually persona non grata in much of evangelical Christianity because he dares to say that (gasp!) men should lead their wives and wives should submit to their husbands. We live in a time where to even say such a thing sounds to most people like an endorsement of the husband dragging his wife by the hair out back and beating her with a two by four because she burned the toast.

    Yes, this.

  83. earl

    “So, who would you rather have as a drug abuse counsellor, a former addict who’s gone through the hell of an addiction and come out on top, or a guy with a certificate from all the books he’s read about being addicted?”

    Well obviously I want a savior that went through the same Hell I’ve gone through and came out on top. But I’ve never been involved with a BPD chick. And while I can understand why I should never get involved…I can’t relate to it. Your advice only applies to a certain demographic.

    Jesus on the other hand I can’t think of a scenerio I’ve been in on earth that he didn’t go through and defeat.

  84. feministhater

    SSM, here, why not just state the truth. NO SEX BEFORE MARRIAGE. There done! No more blaming PUAs or Christian men for noticing that Christian women cannot keep their legs closed.

  85. earl

    Now let me ask the men this. How much do you think your problems from women either stemmed from:

    a) having casual sex with them
    b) constantly wearing your heart on your sleeve to them

    These are things that fog your mind to her craziness. It is imporant for guys to not engage in premarital sex or develop oneitis. Easier said than done, I know.

  86. earl

    @Rollo

    Also I get how one woman messed you up bad and that advice is appreciated. Now how many of those ~40 women you claimed to have slept with do you think you messed up?

  87. Lady Just Saying

    After viewing a few of the internet PUA sites, I can only conclude that they are either lying about being players to sell their books, or apparently they are only meeting blind women. A couple of these “players” are downright repulsive. But I guess they deserve some credit for trying to sell dating advice and actually posting their photographs with a straight face.

  88. Ton

    Pastors, priests, preachers etc are men and take responsibility for the destruction for the church or they are women and children and should be pushed aside.

    They have authority & are leaders of churches and therefore responsibility or they do not have authority, they are not leaders and have no responsibility for the destruction of the church.

    Responsibility is the price of authority and leadership. Someone on my team or in my platoon failed, the responsibility was mine because the authority was/ is mine. Anything else is weak.

    While the church not being there to serve westren civilization is spot on, men should not support institutions hell bent on destroying their way of life and people. Which the RCC is all about at the ground level.

  89. seriouslypleasedropit

    “I don’t have the whole solution, but what I’ve been telling women is to go first. Return to seeking marriage when you are young; stay chaste; seek your husband’s good; be loyal to your man. Will some women end up getting hurt by this? Maybe, but…”

    So, this sucks to hear, but this is the whole solution, until the final trump anyway. It’s really only practiceable by people with nothing to lose, or who, uh, take no thought for their lives.

    Prisoner’s dilemmas are best solved by people who are willing to lose. The walking wounded. (As in all things, they must count the cost.)

    Lately I have decided: I’m going to go first. What this looks like in practice is: Dropit is a huge beta. This is not some Zen there-is-no-game-and-so-you-win-the-game thing: it burned me last night, with a girl I’m interested in. It hurt. I’m not happy about it.

    But, there it is. Knowing ahead of time that that would be the result, I’d have done it again. My conscience (and thus frame) are appeased.

    EDITLiterally as I was writing this I got a phone call and things are looking way up. So, uh, whatever. Fools before God, and all that.

  90. sunshinemary Post author

    Angry Feminist Jocelyn Roach has taken exception to a tweet I sent to #BackToTheKitchen:

    She carefully outlines her disagreement:

    Well, she told me, I guess. Clearly a career is deeply fulfilling for her and I am missing out here, surrounded by my children who are helping to put the finishing touches on dinner in the kitchen. Let’s examine a bit more of Ms. Roach’s career to see if we can glean any tips that will help me shed my sad life here as I raise my husband’s children and cook his dinner:

    Gosh, call me crazy, but I think I’ll stay here in my own kitchen.

  91. Rollo Tomassi

    @Earl, I’m not going to say I disagree with either you or Donna’s take here, but then you return to the realm of ‘why bother with Game at all?’ or really ‘why bother with anything but faith and prayer at all?’ since we’re all not supposed to rely on our own understanding and trust God in all things.

    This is what I believe is at the heart of Red Pill Christian men’s resistance of Game. It’s like telling God, “Hey God, I know I’m supposed to be faithful and all, but you haven’t exactly been all that forthcoming with a wife of my youth. But don’t worry, I’ve taken the red pill finally and I’ve learned Game – I think I got this now.”

    Only, the flip side to that is to ‘pray unceasingly in all things’ and patiently await your “bride” to be delivered via UPS Ground. Your pastor may have met his ‘hot wife’ at church camp or Liberty University, but as far as I know, for all their very sincere faith, guys like Earl and Donalgrame are still awaiting delivery.

    I wouldn’t dissuade anyone from a personal, faithful, relationship with Jesus Christ, but being a Christian does not excuse you from critical thought. Wisdom and discernment are every bit as important as faith. God may not want you to rely on your own understanding, but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t expect you to take a stab at yourself first.

  92. earl

    So it sounds like her twitter feed is just based off whatever emotional state she is in.

    Those feminists…still acting like women even when they think they’re men.

  93. Bike Bubba

    A couple of thoughts; some of those bewailing mens’ situations these days are portraying themselves as “beta” when their “history” suggests a high “N” count and a quite different psychology, if I remember correctly. If you’re one of them, apply with wisdom.

    Regarding Rollo’s comment on trying out a number of women/partners before settling on one, it strikes me that no sane young man would do that when selecting a trade. Lessee….I’m going to try flower arranging, HR, janitorial engineering, medicine……and then will almost certainly end up doing menial labor because he’s not applied himself to anything. No, the intelligent young person selects a range of trades that he’s interested in and believes are compatible with his abilities, and then chooses one that will have him–and works towards mastery in that area.

    Same thing with marriage, I think.

  94. earl

    “God may not want you to rely on your own understanding, but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t expect you to take a stab at yourself first.”

    What makes you think I didn’t take a stab at myself first? It revealed a weak heart. Every man needs to do this…because a weak heart is the result of trying to go at it alone.

    I realized the only reason I wanted a wife was so that I would get some emotional validation…like having a second mother. And I learned this very recently…even after taking the red pill. Now I’m embarking on a journey where emotional validation comes from worshipping God and doing the actions that are needed for this particular day. If a wife results because of that…so be it.

    I can tell you my heart is growing stronger and I’m enjoying whatever results happen for each new day.

  95. Bike Bubba

    OK, our hostess’ Twitter feed suggests a new joke:

    Q. What does the feminist with a prestigious womyn’s studies degree say to a family on vacation?

    A. You want fries with that?

  96. Novaseeker

    The objections, as far as I can understand from having read them, seem to be on a couple of levels:

    1. The “source” of Game is people who are engaging in immorality, and Christians should not be taking life advice regarding women from people who are using Game to engage in immorality with women. Note this objection doesn’t care that there are some proponents of Game who are married and who do not use it that way, because the ultimate “source” of Game is immoral people like Mystery and Style and Roissy and so on.

    2. Game’s “tools” are not neutral because they are all aimed at seduction. Seduction is immoral because it is considered to be luring someone away from something they should be doing — it’s considered by this objection to be fundamentally immoral. In the context of a marriage, it is also considered to be nonsensical by this objection because marital sex is a duty/obligation and therefore not something one can be seen as being “seduced” into — seduction doesn’t apply, is superfluous and confusing and still evil and immoral.

    3. Game is not needed, because if you really study the Bible and distill its lessons on masculinity completely and follow them well, you will automatically become attractive to the kinds of women you should be seeking out for wives as a Christian man. It happens automatically if you are simply following the Bible’s advice on acting masculine in a Christian/Biblical sense — you shouldn’t be focused on attracting women at all, in this view, but rather on cultivating Biblical masculinity and virtue. If you do that, you will automatically generate attraction as a by-product.

    4. God does not some men to have wives, for His own reasons. Men may not deserve a wife, may not be able to handle a wife, and so on, or may be being punished by God or what have you. Therefore, you should not be focused on obtaining a wife — that may be a direct contradiction to what God’s will is for you. Instead, you should follow the Bible and its instructions on Biblical masculinity and masculine virtue, and if you do that and God intends for you to marry, you will attract a wife as a result of that.

    =====

    I’m not defending these objections, mind you, just stating them so that they can be examined in a bit more systematic way. Some of the writers involved have (from my perspective a rather irritating) tendency to write in a relatively obscure style (perhaps deliberately, I do not know), so I think restating them in a more straightforward manner has some value even for people who disagree with some or all of the objections that are being raised.

  97. Novaseeker

    Note that last comment was directed at Rollo’s most recent comment — seems like the text at the top where I was copypasting the text from his comment that I was responding to got cut off.

  98. earl

    “Therefore, you should not be focused on obtaining a wife — that may be a direct contradiction to what God’s will is for you.”

    I agree…those pastors shaming men into getting married are the worst. Men have the great option of either serving God…or building a household.

    Married men have their own families to attend to…single men have an entire world they can work with. Each one has its own rewards and one isn’t better than the other. But you have to keep in mind if you are single…you have to play by the rules when it comes to sex. That is only a marriage thing.

    If single guys are hard up because they are burning…fighting their demons is a good way to have the release. Praying, fasting, almsgiving, self discipline, working out, etc. I even like the punching bag. Once I started focusing more on that…things became clearer.

  99. SirNemesis

    @ SSM

    The funny thing is, in my post from several weeks ago, when I suggested that men would have to band together to protect their tribe from predatory men (“Vikings”), exactly zero PUAs objected to that. Other men objected to it, but the PUAs were mostly like, “Yep. They’d have to. Doesn’t appear like they ever will, though.”

    Curious about this (could you link to it?). Why would anyone object?

    I’ve always felt that PUAs/Gamers are the allies of virtuous men – they openly talk about the red pill and often complain that they’re being rewarded for their cadish behavior… It’s the natural cads who spew blue-pill crap while naturally engaging in red pill behavior (just look at Hugo Schwyzer’s exploits), that are the enemies of virtuous men.

  100. Jay

    Feminist train-of-thought never ceases to amuse me. Serving a husband? Oppression! Slavery! Serving a strange boss? EMPOWERMENT. LOL Woe betide the women who would rather be owned by the State than another human being that actually cares about them.

  101. feeriker

    (Ah, but who invented feminism again?)

    True enough, but if significant numbers of women had not wholeheartedly embraced this ideology, it would just be a humorous footnote in history (much like Sabbatiamism) rather than the world-destroying social force that it is today.

  102. Chad

    “I’ve always felt that PUAs/Gamers are the allies of virtuous men – they openly talk about the red pill and often complain that they’re being rewarded for their cadish behavior… It’s the natural cads who spew blue-pill crap while naturally engaging in red pill behavior (just look at Hugo Schwyzer’s exploits), that are the enemies of virtuous men.”

    Evil is evil. God judges people based on both their actions and their characters. Why would you defend what God condemns?

    This kind of thought always makes me wonder if people ever even opened a Bible. Both the Old and the New Testament had very clear things to say about keeping company of evil men or allowing them to influence your family, community, culture, society; let alone about them being ‘allies.’

  103. SirNemesis

    @ SSM

    I’m pondering this. Are women really the ones “driving” the hook up culture? That doesn’t seem right to me. Wouldn’t that just be a small subset of sexually unrestricted women? Do women really get more out of casual sex than men do? Wasn’t there a big study recently that found that women don’t usually reach orgasm during casual sex?

    Psychologically speaking (not evolutionarily), nobody has sex to achieve orgasm. If that were the goal, men would for example have no interest in getting laid, as porn+masturbation achieves orgasm perfectly well. People have sex to get validation.

    Women have casual sex with alphas for the validation.

  104. feeriker

    I can’t imagine that “Jocelyn Roach” will ever need to worry about being oppressed by a husband. She appears to be well-saturated in “man repellant.” Besides, what would be the benefit of being married to a “barista” if she considers fixing you a decent cup of mochachino to be “oppressive?”

  105. SirNemesis

    @ Chad

    Evil is evil. God judges people based on both their actions and their characters. Why would you defend what God condemns?

    This kind of thought always makes me wonder if people ever even opened a Bible. Both the Old and the New Testament had very clear things to say about keeping company of evil men or allowing them to influence your family, community, culture, society; let alone about them being ‘allies.’

    I’m atheist dude…

  106. JDG

    I wonder if the “best’ way for a fella to have children is to impregnate a woman and then not marry her. He would have to pay child support, but not half or more of his assets. Furthermore, he might be able to negotiate visitation rights.

    Just one more way the government promotes bastardy and discourages marriage.

    Sandra Fluke is running for Congress.

    Sadly she will fit right in.

    So we must ask ourselves, “Is civilization worth the sacrifice”?

    And “Where are the sammiches?”

    God is sitting on the sidelines, doing whatever it is He does but generally being of no help.

    This is foolishness. God is active and His purposes are not thwarted. It is so common that when when things don’t go the way we want we think we can blame Him or explain Him away as irrelevant. Doesn’t it occur to people that this life is not the end game, and happiness here is but a little thing. I submit that He is more concerned with our eternal state then out temporal one, and His methods are beyond are ability to scrutinize.
    Isaiah 55:9
    For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

    I’m pondering this. Are women really the ones “driving” the hook up culture?
    In my opinion yes.
    That doesn’t seem right to me. Wouldn’t that just be a small subset of sexually unrestricted women?
    No. Almost none are virgins any more. If you successfully discourage women from hooking up, hooking up would decline. If you discourage men from hooking up, a few would still meet the demands of many women.

    Do women really get more out of casual sex than men do? Wasn’t there a big study recently that found that women don’t usually reach orgasm during casual sex?

    They aren’t doing it for orgasms. I thought all this was written about extensively.

    I would have said, “Make Sammiches”

    Me too.

    I will give her credit; she probably is making sammiches for guys.

    LOLOL!!!

  107. Sarah's Daughter

    God judges people based on both their actions and their characters. Why would you defend what God condemns?

    There’s just something about you sir that hasn’t sat well with me from the first comment I’ve read of yours. I’m starting to understand just what that is. You actually believe your actions and character stand above other sinners…don’t you? There are quite a few like that around the sphere lately. Some come right out and call all people rotten (except themselves of course) and then are so naive as to write about the challenges they have dealing with all the heathens of the world.

    Haughty is just so vile.

  108. runsonmagic (@runsonmagic)

    @SirNemesis

    “Psychologically speaking (not evolutionarily), nobody has sex to achieve orgasm. If that were the goal, men would for example have no interest in getting laid, as porn+masturbation achieves orgasm perfectly well. People have sex to get validation.

    Women have casual sex with alphas for the validation.”

    Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner.

  109. Farm Boy

    Tomorrow I will outline what I believe needs to happen, legally and socially, for it to be possible for traditional sex roles to return at the society-wide level.

    I hope that you have some good ideas here. Women probably will resist mightily. They leverage their youth for lots of fun and are too busy to develop any attributes that might attract a man beyond their appearance. When the bloom of their youth is over, they are empowered to continue the fun on their own. And, of course, “empowered” means “I’m awesome”.

  110. Farm Boy

    How about this,

    Q. What does the feminist with a prestigious womyn’s studies degree say to another woman’s child?

    A. You want fries with that?

  111. FuzzieWuzzie

    I have been holding back, trying to think of something positive and constructive…
    Mulling over CrazyDachshundLady and her issues with work, dealing with the public in a fast pace enviornment can be a misery. Who would be the ones causing her the greatest grief? Not the guys who believe in keeping things simple.

  112. Farm Boy

    Moving along with that line of thought, what may help would be to enlist the help of a lion and a tiger. You already have a bear.

    Dunno about those cats. Perhaps there is a cougar or two lurking.

  113. Deep Strength

    @ SD

    How is that haughty?

    I can see how the wording may have been better in terms of calling someone out on sin things that God condemns, but I didn’t read it as such until you pointed it out.

  114. Farm Boy

    she probably is making sammiches for guys.

    Sammiches for money dont count.

    Does that make her a prostitute?

  115. Farm Boy

    Who would be the ones causing her the greatest grief? Not the guys who believe in keeping things simple.

    I have to agree with you. It always women who have trouble at checkouts, etc. They never have their money ready, change their minds, and are easily confused. It is almost as if they have no concept of preparation.

  116. Chad

    “There’s just something about you sir that hasn’t sat well with me from the first comment I’ve read of yours. I’m starting to understand just what that is. You actually believe your actions and character stand above other sinners…don’t you?”

    No. I know my most of faults and they are plentiful. I would say I know all of them, but I doubt that’s really the case.

    No, I know a great deal of how fallen man is. I’ll be honest in that I write for what I hope myself to become. I base the writing on what I’ve been, what blessings I’ve received, what I read of the promises in scripture, and what revelations have come to Saints, Popes, and the Church since.

    As I state in the About section of my new blog, I don’t have the answers and am actively searching for them. I write on what I’ve found while looking for more.

    I know, actively, that if not for God’s graces and strengths….

    Well, there but for the grace of God go I.

    That doesn’t mean I believe that sinners should be denied God’s love, or that we should not love them. I’m saying that we should not allow them into places they can influence us, our communities, our families to sin. We should not call them allies. We should not call them friends. We should call them the Fallen without salvation, when we are the Fallen with Salvation. We are men and women of God. We should try to lead them towards salvation and share our blessings. When they seek salvation, we should joyously sing of God’s glory.

    But I won’t support them having a place where they can tempt myself or those I love away from the Lord when they show no sign of desiring salvation, and every intent on leading as much of the flock away from God as they can.

  117. FuzzieWuzzie

    I do look forward to reading tomorrow’s post. After reading someone’s assessment of the current SMP/MMP as FUBARed, I am bereft of hope.

  118. FuzzieWuzzie

    Observer, “A sammich whore”? If I avail myself of her services, does that make me a “sammich john”?
    Somebody else, on another thread, made a joke about this situation. He was married and thought this might constitute infidelity.

  119. JDG

    Sammiches for money dont count.

    True! But it is ironic that if not for all that indoctrination she could be making sammiches in a nice peaceful kitchen for a man that cares about her.

  120. Ton

    If God is active, where are His actions? How many marriages fail after years of prayer, fasting etc. Way more then are saved I reckon. Observation is observation.

    If God is as you say, and does not care about our earthly life….. we’ll leave it at that but you might want to do some thinking on that. You won’t but hey that’s on you. Funny how the oxen are not o be muzzled when they work but men….. who cares.

  121. Farm Boy

    “A sammich whore”? If I avail myself of her services, does that make me a “sammich john”?

    What if you go to “Jimmy Johns”? Would you be a Jimmy John John?

  122. Sarah's Daughter

    That doesn’t mean I believe that sinners should be denied God’s love, or that we should not love them.

    Tell me the difference between the two words in bold.

    I’ve witnessed my husband lead several men and women to Christ. Not once did they not know him as a friend first, a steady, trustworthy confidant. Every time they were deep down personal in our lives and us with them. He’s seen evil (as I’m sure Ton has as well). The men to whom you refer are not even close. It has not been my experience that the writers or commenters on blogs like CH are actively trying to lead people away from Christ. In fact one of the only times I commented on there a man said to me, “you’re a Christian, you’re supposed to submit to your husband no matter what.” To which I answered an emphatic “absolutely!”

  123. FuzzieWuzzie

    Ton, I wish I could answer the questions you have raised. All I can say is that He must have plans that may take generations to come to fruition.
    We’re not allowed to judge Him.
    I’m frustrated too.

  124. Chad

    @ SD
    I already answered your question. Maybe you should have kept reading

    “We should call them the Fallen without salvation, when we are the Fallen with Salvation”

  125. tz2026

    If sluts didn’t get anything out of it, they woun’t bed strange men. You need to read Mises on economic theory. You don’t do things you don’t at some level get benefit from. Even if it is a food pellet to the rationalization hamster to keep it on the wheel.

    You have objective values, so see such transactions as lunacy. Correctly. But in the feminist blue-pill haze, she gets to feel wanted (even if “wanted” and “used” are blurred – I often want toilet paper too).

    You may resist seeing the contraception connection, but you use terms like “family formation”. Husband and wife and self-induced curse of barrenness? The greek work telos, purpose, end, changes if marriage is planting a seed you expect to grow and yield, v.s. something you really, really don’t want to happen and try to prevent for years.

    Say what you want about Putin, but I think I would be more likely to find a Russian woman who would opt for a traditonal role – and have that legally enforced – than here in the evil empire that used to be the USA.

  126. sunshinemary Post author

    Rollo:

    Who do you think has better grasp on the nature and psychology of women, the feminine imperative and the social implications of the past 60 years of feminization, RooshV or Mark Driscoll?

    Zippy:

    Hah! There’s a false dichotomy for you. The Pervert or the Churchian, take your pick from the excrement buffet.

    So to review, these are my two choices?

    Zippy, what was it you were saying about it being easier just to get fertilizer straight from the horse’s @$$?

  127. Chad

    @ SSM
    Wow. Really? I can’t believe Driscoll said that.

    You know…. Because immaculate conception as well as messages sent by angels to accept the woman as a wife happen to everyone….

    Ugh. Those people are poisonous.

  128. JDG

    If God is active, where are His actions?

    I have given this some thought. I know from experience that hardship is easy to speak of and hard to go through. I too have suffered. I have lost loved ones. Some very close to me. One even died in my arms. A childhood friend died with his children in an auto accident. Another close friend lost his five year old daughter to cancer. My friend would tell you that God has a purpose even if we cannot see it. He is working His will. Bad things happen to good people all the time and have since the fall of mankind. We have to trust Him, like Job did.

    15 Though he slay me, I will hope in him;
    yet I will argue my ways to his face.
    16 This will be my salvation,
    that the godless shall not come before him.
    17 Keep listening to my words,
    and let my declaration be in your ears.
    18 Behold, I have prepared my case;
    I know that I shall be in the right.

    And Paul told us that suffering is not in vain for those in Christ.

    Rom 5
    5 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

    So God is shaping us through these hard times. And who knows what else He is working through it all. And the life to come is going to be so much better than anything here for those who are found in Christ.

    Rom 8
    18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.

  129. Deep Strength

    “If God is active, where are His actions?”

    This is too easy to answer.

    God allows humans free will. If He forcibly changes situations where people don’t want Him then we have no free will.

    Even Jesus could not perform miracles in His hometown for lack of faith [of those in the town].

  130. Pingback: The real way to lose is to grow addicted to fear – and other thoughts from the manosphere – part 2 of 2 | vulture of critique

  131. FuzzieWuzzie

    Runsonmagic, NOT funny!

    It’s hard having to choose between Roosh dumping a perfectly good woman after a limited time but, Driscoll really takes the cake.
    He’s put the average single mommy on a pedestal thet would dwarf the one in Trafalgar Sqare.

    What comes out of the back end of a horse is barely digested grass.
    What is coming out of these guys mouths is worse by a country mile.

  132. Aquinas Dad

    Chad,
    Keep it up. It can be very hard and your self-awareness of the issues of gossip and scandal speak very well for you. I will keep you in my prayers.

  133. Ton

    I am not even talking about miracles DS. Maybe a nudge, a saved marriage here an there, & inkling there is a pay off for the effort…. something yet there is nothing.

    Denying reality does not help your cause

  134. Aquinas Dad

    Ton,
    Once again, your personal ignorance is not my issue. Although as someone who has spent almost two decades dealing with being called everything from a prude to a homophobe to a Nazi (and receiving death threats, and losing jobs, and being personally threatened) because I kept speaking of the dangers of modernity and knowing that I am not nearly as active and visible as some others I suspect that you weren’t paying attention or didn’t like the message.

    Rollo,
    “This is what I believe is at the heart of Red Pill Christian men’s resistance of Game. It’s like telling God, “Hey God, I know I’m supposed to be faithful and all, but you haven’t exactly been all that forthcoming with a wife of my youth. But don’t worry, I’ve taken the red pill finally and I’ve learned Game – I think I got this now.”

    Only, the flip side to that is to ‘pray unceasingly in all things’ and patiently await your “bride” to be delivered via UPS Ground. Your pastor may have met his ‘hot wife’ at church camp or Liberty University, but as far as I know, for all their very sincere faith, guys like Earl and Donalgrame are still awaiting delivery.”

    False dichotomy; it isn’t ‘”game” vs nothing’ no matter how many times it is repeated. I see too many marriages between good Catholic men and women to fall for such facile ploys.
    A few years back a bishop said ‘sitting at home and praying for a wife is like sitting at home and praying for a fish. Pray before, pray during, and pray after but act’
    Hint: I don’t think he was suggesting you use “game”.

  135. JDG

    Maybe a nudge, a saved marriage here an there, & inkling there is a pay off for the effort

    There are saved marriages. I have seen it. I have helped save marriages by confronting the frivorcers before they did the dirty deed. In one case she still holds a grudge, but she is also still married to her husband. I see prayer answered almost daily.

    There is some ‘payout’ as you call it, but God has plans bigger than our own. And as DS pointed out, people can and do choose to do evil. Still God is working through it all according to His plans. And if you are refering to the words of Job and Paul as lame platitudes then nothing I can say will do you any good.

  136. Deep Strength

    @ Ton

    “I am not even talking about miracles DS. Maybe a nudge, a saved marriage here an there, & inkling there is a pay off for the effort…. something yet there is nothing.

    Denying reality does not help your cause”

    If you don’t believe in free will then what do you believe?

    God does not force Himself on anyone who doesn’t want Him.

  137. Aquinas Dad

    Novaseeker,
    Here are my objections to “game”
    1. The basic analysis of male nature (alpha/beta/gamma/delta/sigma) is obviously wrong or, if you prefer, so simplistic and broad as to be meaningless
    2. Within the metastructure of “game” masculine analysis the core traits of an alpha (some claim it is to have the ‘dark triad’ of narcissism, Machiavellianism, and psychopathy; most claim that it at lest involves a near-total lack of empathy, limited or absent emotional attachment, the purposeful inducement of negative emotions or sinful thoughts into others, etc)) are inherently dysfunctional, immoral or both
    3. The goal of “game” is to emulate the traits of an alpha in order to be promiscuous (roissy specifically states that a man who is not promiscuous when young cannot be alpha).
    A: based upon 1, 2, and 3 it is patently obvious that “game” is objectionable in general and to Christians (and Jews) in particular. Even if the ludicrous categories are correct the purpose is to imitate amoral narcissists.

    4. According to roosh and other ‘leading theorists’ “game” only works on a very narrow subset of women. Roosh’s books and blogs actually spend a lot of time talking about the sorts of women “game” simply won;t work on, how “game” doesn’t work in Holland, Poland, etc., etc., etc., and how it won’t work against certain women even within the sub groups he speaks of.
    [Indeed, one of the very first things I read on roosh's old blog was his post on how he had to essentially ditch "game" to have sex in parts of Europe]
    5. Even within those various subsets of women where “game” is supposed to work the same ‘leading theorists’ admit very openly that it doesn’t work very often. Some of the quotes from TV shows, blogs, and books talk about how *with a lot of experience* you might get almost 10% ‘success’ with “game” if you are good at targeting the right subgroups of women in the rights places, etc.
    6. According to what little actual numnerical evidence ever coughed up it certainly does not threaten to reach 10% for guys who invest a ton of time and energy into “game”
    B: Based on 4, 5, and 6 it is apparent that “game” doesn’t work very well at all and as Zippy and others have written a great deal about may actually just be a magic feather effect, i.e., there is no ‘there’ there.

    7. The Christian tradition has a large number of sources on genuine masculinity, courtship, engagement, etc. already in existence that has the benefit of centuries of evidence that it works and works well. While these may seem obscure to some in the modern West they still exist, are still taught and embraced, and are readily available with less searching than you need for the various PUA manuals if you know where to look. Non-Christian traditions are also obviously available.
    8. A rather large number of people who have never heard of “game” are successful in both the worlds of hedonistic promiscuity and Christian marriage. The divorce rate for first marriages has been declining for decades, now, and the risk factors that can increase or reduce the odds of divorce are well-known and documented. None of them involve the elements of “game”.
    9. Even proponents of “game” admit that the current social situation is an aberration and that in the past the vast majority of men had no need for “game” or its elements, that the ‘alphas’ category of men they define were excluded from better society or had emulate other behavior, and that this was because of training/socialization/etc, that was not related to “game”.
    C: Alternatives to “game” that are both well proven and not inherently dysfunctional and immoral exist

    Therefore: “game” is, at best, a waste of time and at worst a waste of time that leads to dysfunctional, immoral patterns of behavior.

    Is that more clear?

  138. SirNemesis

    @ runsonmagic

    Did it work out well for Joseph? I thought he got cuckolded by the big man and just had to suck it up.

    Gotta give it to Joseph. One hell of a rationalization hamster, what with the dream and all that.

  139. Aquinas Dad

    Ton,
    The divorce rate for devout Christians (defined as ‘attends religious services at least once a week and prays outside of religious services at least once a week’, the best statistical proxy we have) is (according to the GSS and the Birkbeck College analysis) at least 12% lower than the divorce rate of the general population. Indeed, the lowest measurable divorce rate is for devout couples (i.e., both meet the definition of devout) who are both virgins on their wedding night where they did not live together before marriage, he does not look at porn, and neither masturbate – effectively 0%
    How’s that?

  140. Aquinas Dad

    Ton,
    Ooops, forgot another factor in the ‘lowest divorce rate’ thing – they also do not use artificial birth control

  141. JDG

    Did it work out well for Joseph? I thought he got cuckolded by the big man and just had to suck it up.
    Gotta give it to Joseph. One hell of a rationalization hamster, what with the dream and all that.

    Joseph wasn’t cuckolded. Jesus was born of a virgin. Do you two fools even know what cuckolded means?

  142. FuzzieWuzzie

    Ton, I have often asked the question “Where is God in all of this?”
    No answer forthcoming but, I didn’t mean to give you platitudes.
    If an angel drops his sword, pick it up. You’re more than familiar with what stands behind it.

  143. Bambbamb

    The thing in all of PUA discussions that I find amusing is the assumption that PUA’s have a long term plan for the future that benefits them. Yet it’s been strongly indicated that only men with off spring have long time preferences(Studies on the subject, the bible only allowing men with children to be elders, ect). Thus would it be that surprising they advocate something that long term might harm their lifestyle while in the short term all they see is spreading the truth? Seems reasonable to me.

    As far as PUA’s ruining women goes: Without fathers shielding their daughters from PUAs and other men in general, how you expect any women not to ruined? Most traditional societies have assumed sex would happen between any female left alone with any unrelated man. The penalty for rape and fornication is often the same for this reason. Thus a PUA ruining a women wasn’t the opening act. The opening act was her father allowing her to be away from the family without a male relative to escort her.

  144. SirNemesis

    @ JDG

    Joseph wasn’t cuckolded. Jesus was born of a virgin. Do you two fools even know what cuckolded means?

    Of course Mary was a virgin. Joseph had a dream to that effect. And as we all know and have experienced, dreams accurately represent reality. It’s not like Joseph was being a white-knight or anything…

  145. Chad

    “Joseph wasn’t cuckolded. Jesus was born of a virgin. Do you two fools even know what cuckolded means?”

    I doubt they do.

    I do doubt that they’d examine the possible wisdom found in the fact that both Jesus and Mary, both holier than Joseph, still submitted to him as head of household. Still relied on him for protection and followed his guidance.

    God requires wives to act as wives and sons to act as sons and fathers to act as fathers. He demands this no matter what situation you find yourself in, no matter what your own petty Fallen desires are, no matter what the faults of your spouse are. Your goal is to get them into heaven with every action you take.

  146. JDG

    It’s not like Joseph was being a white-knight or anything…

    No it’s not. In that culture there was nothing to gain from it.

    In addition, Joseph wasn’t the only one who dreamed. And he wasn’t the only one who knew that what occurred was an act of God. It was predicted that the son the would be born of a virgin 1400 years before it happened. The place of His birth and manner in which He would suffer and be executed were written down centuries before it came to pass. 351 prophecies came true with the birth, life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Joseph was in good company.

  147. Wild Man

    Been having this debate with some gals elsewhere in the manosphere, SSM. It’s very difficult for them to approach it from anything other than the egalitarian premise; feminism is so deeply ingrained that biblical hierarchy must be opposed no matter how much it might help.

  148. Eidolon

    Aquinas Dad,

    I have no doubt that you mean well, but you seem to be very nearsighted. Your own personal situation seems to be all you see when you survey the social landscape.

    Your arguments seem to be that 1) game is an immoral thing and cannot be used morally, 2) game doesn’t work that well anyway, and 3) tools are widely available to men as an alternative to game which will give success.

    To take the last first, it’s incredibly easy for you to say that all these tools are widely available, but it is in no way true. It’s great that you’re working in this area, and I commend you for it, but just because your local church provides this training doesn’t mean that more than a tiny group of men will ever have heard of any of it. And even if they had, learning to be a successful and even virtuous man does not guarantee attraction from women, especially in the current social climate. If a man lacks the characteristics that cause a woman to feel attraction, it matters very little how good he is in other ways. The analogy would be, let’s say a woman’s group holds a session for single women. They teach them to be humble, sweet, gentle, kind, compassionate, loving, and supportive, as part of a program to help them get married. This is all great. But if women are taught by society that they should be fat, and no one in the church, or their family, or society at large tells them that men are not attracted to fat women, then they will still not be able to attract the quality men that they want, and that they could have been able to attract had they known what qualities men require to feel attraction.

    You don’t seem to understand what it’s like to have no natural ability to deal with women at all. Society teaches men, and often their mothers reinforce, that they ought to exhibit certain qualities (kindness, gentleness, meekness, sweetness, generosity, commitment, etc.) which do not in themselves cause women to feel attraction, no matter how good the man is. And it’s very difficult to argue with this, since these are, in themselves, generally good things. The perennial complaints about women going for jerks are correct in that those who lack virtue but possess the qualities that women find attractive are attractive to women, as well. It’s an awful, helpless feeling, to be told over and over again that if you do X, you’ll get positive result Y, and to do X with great hope for Y, and to fail over, and over, and over. It’s as though you went to the DMV, and they gave you a form to fill out to get your license. And every time, you fill it out exactly the way it tells you to, and every time it comes back rejected. You ask what’s wrong, what could you do differently, and the clerk says “oh nothing, it just wasn’t right this time” and they give you another blank form.

    For people like that, for people like me, game was invaluable. When PUAs say it doesn’t “work” with all women, they mean some women won’t sleep with you within a few dates, not that it isn’t attractive. The perspective and information it gives is useful with all women. It gave me a formalized way to understand how to relate to women, and provided actual information about what women actually find attractive — not what they say they like, but what they really respond to. Even the fact that these two things are very different was something that game clued me into. This was exactly what I needed. Once I started applying it, I had tremendously better results with women, and was able to meet and marry my wonderful wife. It is impossible that I could have married her, had I not made the changes to myself that were needed to be attractive to her.

    It’s very easy for those with natural interpersonal skills to see game as nothing but a bunch of sleazy tricks to get women to sleep with you. And certainly, that stuff is out there. But what I wanted was a way to relate to women, in a way that they would enjoy. Essentially, I needed game so that I could use it to “buy” the attraction necessary to actually treat my wife well, without her perceiving me as a loser and losing attraction for me, as had always happened to me before. And in that capacity it has been invaluable.

    In a healthier society, men’s natural leadership roles and presence of male role models in all households would probably render game superfluous. Game is, essentially, the distilled essence of what creates attraction. It wasn’t necessary to distill this so much in previous eras because of the better social conditions. It’s the difference between a man buying a horse that’s been bred and trained by an experienced rancher, and a man going out and roping himself a wild horse. In the former case, a general understanding of dealing with horses would get you by just fine, because the upbringing of the animal would make it ready to fulfill its role without much fuss. In the latter case, it’s going to be necessary to have extensive knowledge of how to deal with and train a horse, since you’re dealing with an animal with no real training in what you want it to do. That’s the position men find themselves in today.

  149. Happyhen

    A Bulgarian monk visiting the US said to a friend, “You Americans! You talk about miracles like you don’t believe in God.” Sounds about right. If you do not see the miracles that he places in our lives every second of every day, I don’t know exactly what to tell you. Are your senses dull? Is your heart dead? I always love it when people ask “where is God?” Well, we have ejected him from the 1st floor of our 2 story universe while we consume and sin and hurt each other and call it all acceptable in the name of tolerance and freedom. Anyone who dares call sin “sin” is arrogant and proud. Anyone who chooses obedience to God is a sucker or a fool. We have relegating Him to the attic and only let him out for an hour on Sunday, then back to THE REAL WORLD and God back to His throne in the clouds. We have secularized our whole existence and then expect God to do what exactly? Make an appointment? Next day a letter? And when he doesn’t swoop down at our bidding and save us from our folly, we hold our stained and impure hands to the sky and curse Him and say He doesn’t exist. I’m guessing it’s not God that has abandoned us in our reality. It is we who have abandoned God’s reality for the charade of our own making. The Fall was just this… we are still falling, by the way.

  150. Hipster Racist

    When is everyone going to admit the obvious here? It’s *women* that are the “pick up artists.”

    How many more articles like “The 10 Men To Have Sex With Before You Die – I Mean, Marry” do people need to read until they get it? It’s the women that are pick up artists. I suppose there really are “betas” that have never been chased after by a woman before, but let me assure you, it happens. They will often throw themselves at you.

    When women are young and pretty, they want lotsa cocksa. When they are 30, they want to get married, have one child, then divorce 10 years later for cash and prizes. Then they want to be a cougar or just bitch about how terrible men and their ex-husbands are.

    Birth control drives this, but this tendency in women is not some new thing that the manosphere have discovered. From 391 BC:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assemblywomen

    The women then institute a communist-like government in which the state feeds, houses, and generally takes care of every Athenian. They enforce an idea of equality by allowing every man to sleep with every woman, but that the man must sleep with an ugly woman before he may sleep with a beautiful one.

    Alpha f*cks and beta bucks, all the way back in ancient Greece. The more things change …

    Let’s stop using the term “sluts” for these women, because it’s not like they are “giving it up easy” – they are actively going around seducing men. Let’s call these women what they are – pick up artists. PUAs.

  151. Ton

    You have said some words, been called some names? My My My, you’re street cred is…. Nothing. Your words have accomplished what? This is a key problem. People think their words make a difference on some kind of grand scale. They do not. Was it words or riots that ramped up the welfare state?

    And you would be surprised how well read I am on the “real traditionalists” front. They are, as a rule, not very traditional.

    Almost all the divorced men I know come from couples that would be considered devout. It is not even 0 with the Amish, and I have a pretty good idea virgin marriages etc are rare with them as well. I know from 1st hand experience a virgin bride means nothing.

    Any more words? Care to call me ignorant again? Maybe threaten me again with your mighty preacher pals? Men here give real time and real life advice on the regular. You have done what? Thrown out some vague ideas? Mentions some super special church….. No wonder Christians turn to secular men for advice

    Yep DS it is the same lame answer that is always bandied about. I believe in a number of things, but in this case, God does not care. I am willing to bet good money if we made a list, we’d come up with a lot more items on the God doesn’t care side. Are we nit supposed to weigh the evidenced?

  152. earl

    “Women have casual sex with alphas for the validation.”

    Hope that validation keeps them warm on those nights they are alone with 40 cats. Validation after all isn’t commitment.

  153. earl

    “Did it work out well for Joseph? I thought he got cuckolded by the big man and just had to suck it up.”

    Not even remotely close to cuckoldary.

  154. earl

    “They will often throw themselves at you.”

    Predators posing as house pets…and men continuously fall into those venus fly traps.

  155. earl

    “If God is active, where are His actions? How many marriages fail after years of prayer, fasting etc. Way more then are saved I reckon. Observation is observation.”

    How many marriages fail because birth control was involved? I bet way more than the ones where prayer and fasting are involved.

    Observation is observation.

  156. Ton

    No one can deny reality like a modern Christian. Or is God not strong enough to over come birth control?

  157. earl

    Not denying reality…divorce rates shot up once hormonal birth control was introduced. You are divorcing sex from procreation.

    And it appears Ton has no idea how God works because his pride is getting in the way.

  158. Farm Boy

    Let’s call these women what they are – pick up artists.

    I would not want to give them credit for being artists

  159. Donna Sposata diMaria

    @Rollo: “but then you return to the realm of ‘why bother with Game at all?’ or really ‘why bother with anything but faith and prayer at all?’ since we’re all not supposed to rely on our own understanding and trust God in all things.”

    I wonder if you’ve oversimplified things here to a point where the choice you’ve presented is meaningless. Why can’t you have both? Why can’t game, from a Christian perspective, help someone understand his or her own reactions, and then inform subsequent choices? Why can’t prayer lead one to Game?

    Heh. Even I think that sounds kind of heretical. But the truth is, prayer led me here. Awakening to my own selfishness and irresponsibility in my marriage actually lends me to understanding certain Game principles, at least when presented from a Christian perspective (my introduction to the concept came through Dalrock, innocently :) following a link from instapundit, on a subject I would have thought unrelated.)

    When I look at how Game is presented, at least on Dalrock, I see human nature, both fallen and redeemed. I see my own past choices and my heretofore inexplicable reactions to things in a new light, and that in turn seems to light the path ahead a bit. Am I absolutely convinced of the value of Game? Not really, not yet. I don’t think I understand it well enough to say. But I think I see some truth in it — it certainly helps explain a lot in my own life that had kept me baffled and unhappy for a long time.

    See, when I pray, and the “answer” is as unexpected as an introduction to something as crazy as Christian game, I sit up and pay attention.

    It’s kind of fun that way. :)

  160. earl

    If you want to know the secret of PUA game…it’s women putting themselves on birth control.

    They just happened to be the dick she decided on in that moment. But he gives himself a pat on the back for having such a good strategy. Contraception is actually his wing man.

  161. Ton

    lol I don’t demand anything from God. And I have not denied the birth control link, but nice tap dance any which way.

    Sure I am a proud man, have very right to be proud, however pride isn’t a blinder. This is based on life experience. Knowing prayer and fasting brought me nothing. Watching it fail in other men’s lives time after time. That wives are not a gift roughly 50% of the time., seeing how the army responds to men when their ass is in the wind vs God’s response… never going from victory to victory when I behaved like the church wants.

    Hell compare the dude from MMSL to the success rate of the church regarding saving marriages… The church will lose. Men need and want practical, working answers. The guys like Donal are trying. The rest…. not so much.

    Burrying your head in the sand does nothing for you Earl. Christians, if they want to have an impact in society and in the lives of men need to deal with these things, come up with answers and not regurgitate the same old failed same old.

    You ( collectively) will not though. Not sure why but y’all won’t.

  162. Aquinas Dad

    Eidolon,
    “… it’s incredibly easy for you to say that all these tools are widely available, but it is in no way true”
    So you really believe ‘”game” or nothing’? That before “game” there was nothing? Other than PUAs and their lapdogs no one knows anything? Really? If you aren’t born smooth with women the only way to ever learn how to talk to them, get a date, find a wife, and be a good man is “game”? You really believe that?
    Man, I hope not.
    Eidiolon, as a lot of guys before me have long pointed out the only really decent advice advocates of “game” put out is stuff they stole from other sources.
    ‘Only “game” teaches you how to approach women’ – BS; How to Win Friends and Influence People by Carnegie has been telling you how to approach and win over others for almost 80 years. And if you think it can’t help you approach women Charles Manson used what he learned from the book and course to convince women to be assassins for him. “Game’s” advice on how to approach women is a pale, feeble imitation of this book.
    ‘Only “game” teaches you how to deal with conversational gambits women pose’ – um, no. Between Carnegie, Zig Ziglar, and How to Sell Anything to Anyone, not to mention many good books on conversational gambits “game” is still struggling to catch up with work done before WWII.
    ‘Only “game” teaches men to get in shape, be confident, etc.’ – I dearly hope you know this is false. From Fulton Sheen’s very good Victory over Vice to 5 Steps to Professional Presence to What’s Holding You Back? to the Confidence by James resources on building self-confidence, courage, are very old and very common (Confidence and the related books are from the late 1800’s). And I personally can’t go to a bookstore without seeing about 12 yards of books on how to get into shape.
    And there are, of course, also organizations. Scouting, Regnum Christi, the Knights of St. Maurice for the young, and I am sure more in your area. Do you know where your local chapter of Toastmasters is? Why not?
    “… learning to be a successful and even virtuous man does not guarantee attraction from women,”
    And? Despite what MGTOW shout being successful and virtuous is its own reward. Men stay fit because staying fit is inherently good for the man even if he is celibate. Being courageous is inherently good even if no woman ever swoons over you. Being temperate (the virtue of self-control, not abstaining from alcohol) is inherently good for you even if no one ever knows let alone if it never wins you a date. Being able to provide for yourself is just called ‘being a man’ even if no woman ever knows. This is like saying ‘being healthy is not a guarantee of being attractive'; OK, shouldn’t you still want to be healthy? I mean, you yourself admit that some things are inherently good *in the same comment* so I have no idea why you brought this up.
    “You don’t seem to understand what it’s like to have no natural ability to deal with women at all.”
    About the only thing I think “game” gets right is the repeated mantra to not idolize women. We shouldn’t idolize *anyone* or *any* group, of course,
    And I do understand what it is like. I do travel a great deal, speak with young men and women from all walks of life from all over and (professionally) people of all ages from all over the world. I teach public speaking and sales techniques, for heaven’s sake – of course I know that some men struggle with speaking with women – I have had more than one person tell me they struggle with just talking to the cashier at the movie theater! But that does not mean that “game” makes any long-term sense, let alone that it is the only game in town!
    [see what I did there?]
    Eidolon, no one is a born public speaker. Not you, not me. But public speakers exist and virtually anyone without a mental issue can become one. There are many ways to do this. Same with approaching strangers, negotiating, etc.
    [more in a few]

  163. Cautiously Pessimistic

    Buck up, Ton. With all this horseshit, there’s bound to be a pony here somewhere.

  164. Ton

    I see the strength God gave to me everyday and how I exert that on the world around me. But God’s actions? Nope. Never heard anything like a voice or what have you. Nothing. & neither has the majority of men.

    Which is part lf why the pews are empty.

  165. Aquinas Dad

    Eidolon,
    The next paragraph puzzled me a little. “Society teaches men… …these are… … generally good things”
    Indeed, they are.
    “… those who lack virtue but possess the qualities that women find attractive are attractive to women, as well.”
    And? Women who lack virtue but are physically attractive remain physically attractive to men, as well. “therefore, we must abandon virtue” does not follow. Indeed, it is a real case of begging the question. Are you contending that ‘being virtuous makes you unattractive to women’? If so I will gently chide you for making an obviously false claim. If you are stating ‘virtue is not directly correlated with physical attractiveness’ that is just a brute fact. My response is, once again, and? Please – what were you trying to say, here?
    ” It’s an awful, helpless feeling, to be told over and over again that if you do X, you’ll get positive result Y, and to do X with great hope for Y, and to fail over, and over, and over. ”
    You mean like when you start to practice the violin or the piano? When you learn to fire a rifle? It takes hundreds of repetitions to become proficient in a wide range of tasks and endeavors, naturally. Besides, what do PUAs tell us rather directly about “game”? That you will fail more often than succeed.Indeed, the ‘leaders’ of “game” tell us that after a great deal of experience their ‘success’ rate gets to almost 10%. The only real quantifiable numbers being bandied about show a rejection rate of almost 49 times out of 50 – and this was lauded as a great success. As I directly mentioned in the comment you seem to be replying to, “game” doesn’t work very often according to its *supporters*. So how would that be any different than what you describe here?
    Eidolon, as I mentioned earlier I see “game” as, in the end, a ‘magic feather’. By clutching it tight it gives some men the confidence to overcome their hesitation, to get to the gym, whatever.
    That is in and of itself meh. People I know wear magnets around their wrist and swear it reduces their pain. It helps them and hurts no one, so whatever.
    My objections, which I tried to state clearly above and which you repeated accurately, is that the foundations of “game” are deeply flawed and immoral. Trying to dig out anything other than ‘well, a fair number of men appear to need some sort of system to give them confidence’ [a rather old bit of knowledge, actually, that far pre-dates any PUA] is not just unlikely to produce any positive results it is fraught with moral peril.

  166. Ton

    Women perfer men without virture. Re read that and let it sink it. Good church girl to cock hungry whore. Why? Because it screams masculinity to her tingle factory. Thats where things fall apart on the you don’t need game crew. That and you know, reality on the ground for the most of men

  167. Entropy is my god

    @Ton

    “No one can deny reality like a modern Christian. Or is God not strong enough to over come birth control?”

    Usually we are in agreement. However free will requires consequences. How would you respond to the below scenario:

    Solider is deployed in Iraq in 2005 in Cedar 1. Soldier fails to clean weapon or store it properly. Convoy is attacked, soldier attempts to fire weapon, it jams, double feed. soldier prays for God to unjam weapon. Weapon does not unjam “SPORTS” fails due to dirt buildup. Soldier is shot.

    Whose fault is it that soldier is shot theirs or God’s?

  168. Just Saying

    For me, all interactions with women is the same as any other business deal. So I look at the costs, benefits, and risks. At present, marriage is just too risky as a man – there is almost no plus side. Let’s look at all of the laws – they are either stacked against you if you marry (higher taxes, decreased write-offs for various exemptions, etc), and then comes what you stand to lose (as a man) when things go south. No woman is worth 1/2 of everything I have – I don’t care is we are talking golden, it’s just not worth it when you take into account that you can get similar quality for zero risk – and trade it in for something new every few months. So I see returning to traditional roles as a moot point – heck, even if a woman is willing to sign an iron-clad pre-nup or anything with regard to children – the legal system allows her to say “I didn’t mean it” and you’re screwed – and not in a good way…

    So my entire life had been one risk mitigation strategy when it comes to women – I got involved with married women when I was younger, so their husbands were held accountable for any accidents and I wasn’t – I have children who are in their 30’s since I was in my early teens. Today I enjoy younger women that don’t want anything long term with a fossil like me – but they will enjoy nights cheating on their BF who lets her walk all over him – they get off on it. He’s my scape-goat since I enjoy things au-naturale. Women aren’t going to go back on having their cake (lots of c**k when they are younger), and eating it to (marrying the schmuck when they are too old to command quality c**k) then divorcing him – they have zero incentive to do otherwise. Young women (as young men) do not think of the long term ramifications. Look at all of the women crying because parents don’t want their kids taught by a woman that was in porn, or ex-beauty pageant winners who find out that getting reamed on camera and having it on the internet has consequences. Heck, I live off of the fact that young women don’t think of the consequences of their actions – if they did my life would be a lot more boring. But women WANT those experiences – so wishing it were different won’t change the nature of the beast.

    Now, I see some young women who are about as close to traditional as you can get today. One in particular was a virgin when I met her (wanted experience because the then boy-friend didn’t want to deal with the “hassle” of a virgin) so I got to teach her everything I like – and she decided who needs a schmuck BF. She liked it – so much that she changed her plans – went to school near me and has been seeing me regularly ever since. Much to the chagrin of her parents. Will I give her up – not willingly, but she’ll get older (of course I’m no spring chicken and I can see that the writing is on the wall – she can too – which is why she told me she’s in it for the duration). We’ll see… (I’ll never marry her – but our relationship benefits me greatly, and I guess she feels it benefits her as well.) But that is what goes for traditional these days – a young woman and a much older man who enjoys her, and other women, and she’s okay with it. It’s a man’s world – that is why I laugh at Feminists – they created the perfect world for men like me. I have my cake (when ever I want) and eat it too all the time with zero consequences. That won’t change any time soon… Laws are designed to screw the “good guys” – the ones that are slippery are too hard to catch and hold…

  169. earl

    “I have my cake (when ever I want) and eat it too all the time with zero consequences.”

    I don’t believe that at all.

  170. Ton

    Ps 10% success rate sucks; better then 0% which is the reality to most men

    Earl, have you ever heard me speak on topics I have not lived through?

    Dirty rifle is my fault for not doing pre combat checks. Anything else is poor leadership. I get free will, still a lame cop out as men struggle to get through all of this. Its no kind of answer. Men need to rely on themselves because in the end, that and the Ranger next to you is all the help you will ever get.

  171. Entropy is my god

    @ Ton

    Yes poor leadership. His father, his pastor, his brother all failed him, and he is paying for the consequences of their sins. It sucks. God cannot be blamed for their failure though, aim that blame where it is squarely due, at men who choose freely to preach feminine goddess worship in “Christian” churches.

    What would you do to a fire team leader who told his team “Don’t clean your weapons, don’t even wipe them down. And store your rounds in the dirt and dig them up before mission. That is exactly what our fathers, our pastors, our brothers did to us. When we need to put rounds on target our weapons were filthy and would jam and we had no idea why.

  172. Carlotta

    I lay the blame for the mess we’re in pretty heavily at women’s feet (ah, but really it’s the fault of the cultural elites and their fiat dollarz, lzozlzozl), but I’ll be darned if I’m going to tell them to gussy themselves up in order to be more attractive to users. I advise them to improve themselves while keeping their legs shut until they are married, and then to keep their pretty legs wide open for their husbands after marriage.

    @ SSM

    Welcome back blogmistress! You are all in my prayers.

    Your above statement is precise and logical. Good advice for non-believers. But they will not take it.

    However, we are ignoring the spiritual component that is THE point of all this. It simply cannot be ignored. The man you are engaging is a worthless candidate as a Godly Husband and his wisdom is of this world.
    What does light have to do with evil my Friend?
    Your engagement of him is further proof of his ability to use worldy means to catch and maintain attention from ALL types of women. It is just another form of witchcraft. Yawn.

    The problem isn’t women.
    It isn’t men.
    It is fallen and rebellious humanity. They have left loyalty to a good King for enslavement to an evil one.

    Yes, it would be stupid to have women gussy up for players. But it would be stupid to get involved with an unGodly man period.

    I do not personally engage players. I rebuff them. If they would like to understand why I have hope they can get a quite competent explanation from Himself. Otherwise, they are sinister men spinning lies and I see far to0 many Christian women thinking they can play nicely with fire as long as it is online and they are aware of the red pill.

    The red pill is just the next layer of spiritual deception. It is just another way for humanity to “fix” things and be in control.

    Sold out slavery to the True King Yahweh and deliverance from evil by His Son Yeshuva is the only way out.

  173. earl

    “Earl, have you ever heard me speak on topics I have not lived through?”

    No, but I feel I should remind you.

    Trust in the Lord with all your heart
    And do not lean on your own understanding.
    Proverbs 3:5

    How much do you lean on your understanding of topics you’ve lived through?

  174. Carlotta

    Women perfer men without virture. Re read that and let it sink it. Good church girl to cock hungry whore. Why? Because it screams masculinity to her tingle factory. Thats where things fall apart on the you don’t need game crew. That and you know, reality on the ground for the most of men.

    @ Ton

    BS.
    Fallen, unrepentant whores are just as out to get what they can out of men as the sex fiend man is looking to add to his notches.
    Players aren’t out looking for Godly women who are sexually chaste and withstand their advances. They are looking for anyone who will give it up, a longer chase just means a greater victory.

    Women in general prefer manly, masculine men who are able to protect and provide.
    Godly women prefer manly, masculine men who serve the Lord and because of that will protect and provide.

    Just because they are rare, doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

  175. earl

    “Players aren’t out looking for Godly women who are sexually chaste and withstand their advances. They are looking for anyone who will give it up, a longer chase just means a greater victory.”

    For example:

    22 year old Russian concert pianist. No kiss, no sex. Next!— Nick Krauser (@Krauserpua) February 4, 2014

    23 year old Kazahk good girl. Day 2. No kiss, no sex. Timewaster. Next!— Nick Krauser (@Krauserpua) February 4, 2014

  176. Carlotta

    @ Earl
    I see you are handling that quite nicely, well done.

    @ Ton
    There is always consequences for sin. Always. Sexual sin is specifically warned against in the Bible because you bring the consequences not only into your soul, but your very bones. Witchcraft uses sex to spread demons. You are not getting away with anything, you are simply as deceived as the women who sleeps with you thinking to get something from you.

    Further, the commander of special ops doesn’t give commands to the civil engineer troops. You do not serve the Lord Almighty, so you cannot hear Him. You must first serve Him. You must call on His name, Yahweh and then you will hear. Faith comes by hearing and hearing comes by the Word of God.

    You have rejected Him because this life is painful. Yet Jesus Himself warned us that in this world we will have trouble. Satan does not free you from that, he just enables your rebellion.

    Only service to the Lord will free you. Only then will you truly be a warrior who sees not a desperate and lonely existence, but a Brotherhood of believers across space and time.

    The body of Christ needs hands, feet, eyes, etc. But first, you must belong to Christ.

  177. Carlotta

    @ Earl

    Exactly.

    You are not a Godly women if you throw God over for a player. You are deceived. You have swapped Him for an idol.

  178. Ton

    You have no idea how many church girls I have gone through in a week. Regulr chuch goers, wearing crosses etc. I know folks like the idea but again doesn’t match up to reality. A woman is a woman is a woman. Look at SSM and the football dude who killed a few people. She had the brass to he honests and she was not responding to his church cred.

    Never seen a church girl rebuke me in the real world. Unless you call that sly smile, a light punch and a “you’re so bad” reubuke.

    I do not blame God. He does as He wishes. I do think men are better off solving their own problems, shouldering their own brudens, creating strength in themselves. But yes the church etc has failed epically. One cannot fault younger men for ingoring “traditionalists”. Old folks have earned the scorn

    I trusted in the Lord. Cost me $1800 a month for life, a house, kids & a lot lot more. Now I trust in the man He made me to be.

  179. Entropy is my god

    @Carlotta

    You are instructed not to teach men.

    @Ton
    We agree more than we disagree. Please direct the blame where it is due, God told us to be wise as serpents…. the church, our fathers, our brothers, our team leaders, our squad leaders, they told us to be unknowing beasts of burden for a false and evil goddess worshiping feminine spirit of rebellion.

  180. Ton

    Woman you have no idea about the time I put in serving the Lord or what I did to do so. I did that for a goodly while. Still do after a man’s fashion & in the way of men. Your words are hollow and weak, more of the same old same old that accomplishes nothing

    This is why you are failing as a team. You have no victories to report and will not think about what needs to be done or where missunderstaning may be. Only repete the same words in the same way

  181. EricTheBurgundy

    What ultimately matters is nature, biology, etc. We all want to f–k of course, but there needs to be reproduction and proper rearing for this to happen, therefore there must be limited hedonism. In the future, hedonists who won’t conform will not have the benefit of “democracy” and “non-violence” to protect them from the consequences of upsetting homeostasis. Play for now, but when the proper order is established, such shenanigans will be dealt with accordingly.

  182. feeriker

    AD said The divorce rate for devout Christians (defined as ‘attends religious services at least once a week and prays outside of religious services at least once a week’, the best statistical proxy we have) is (according to the GSS and the Birkbeck College analysis) at least 12% lower than the divorce rate of the general population.

    The only valid divorce rate for “devout” couples is zero percent. Any divorces outside of that statistical figure means that at least one half of the couple has removed themself from the “devout” category.

  183. Ton

    Once again my friend I do not balme God. He is inactive as best I can tell in vast number of lives. It is His right to do so. The problem stems from not dealing with that and thinking the right prayer or fast etc will do the trick when it is action in the physical world which is required.

  184. Chad

    @ Ton
    You’re confusing “Church girls” with Christians.

    There’s a difference. Never has the difference been as great as in the modern age. It’s the same way you’re confusing “Church men” with Christians. A man can’t be Christian if he lacks a Godly Masculinity.

    One can only be a Man of God if one is first a Man.

    If you’re an effeminate pansy boy who can’t stand up for himself or for his God, what do you expect to happen? Women are made to submit, and submission isn’t an act that “asks permission” or evaluates before it does what it’s made to do. People get up in arms when I say you should keep unrepentant sinners away from you and yours, but how do you expect to keep women submissive and in traditional gender roles if you keep sinful men around for them to submit to? How do you expect them to not give in to social trends like feminism if you keep feminists around and give them approval? How do you expect to look like a strong leader as a man if you can’t keep those people away?

    Traditional roles demand the ability and will power to keep toxic, poisonous influences away from those that could be easily swayed by them. Every part of the Bible, Old and New Testament, confirms to keep unrepentant away while doing every single thing you can to support those who repent and seek salvation.

    Every part of modern society that the manosphere rails against can be traced back to losing the will, and then the ability, to do that.

    So Ton? To answer your question – God abandoned marriages when either the man and woman (or both) in the marriage drove him out.

  185. earl

    “You have no idea how many church girls I have gone through in a week. ”

    Am I to suspect you fornicate with them?

    “I trusted in the Lord. Cost me $1800 a month for life, a house, kids & a lot lot more. Now I trust in the man He made me to be.”

    Was birth control involved in your marriage?

  186. Entropy is my god

    @CHAD

    Not true Christians is the same as “No true Scotsman” and is not a valid debating technique. While they may technically be Christians, they look, “act like”, go to church like and are afforded all the worldly benefits and recognition as Christians.

    You are being disingenuous with your arguments. If you have a legitimate retort not using a debating fallacy please use it.

  187. Ton

    Nope Earl and once agin, is God to weak to over come the pill? I believe in the Almighty being all mighty and His ability to act, but that He doesn’t

    No women are women Chad. There are not good girls and bad girls. They are all just girls. Once again I refer to SSM and her response to the football dude

  188. Sarah's Daughter

    A man can’t be Christian if he lacks a Godly Masculinity.

    While respecting the admonishment that a woman not teach a man, I’ll simply state my opinion here, this is bullshit.

  189. earl

    @Ton…You keep mentioning is God weak…God is not weak.

    He gave humans free will…if they want to take a device that is known to cause divorce what action do you want God to do?

    I see the action God is doing…he’s allowing us to destroy our civilization. Most humans never learn from history because that didn’t happen during their time on Earth.

    I see God’s action in me…because I keep harping that birth control is the root cause of all the destruction you see and experienced. Pope Paul VI said this in Humanae Vitae and that’s why it is Catholic church doctrine that birth control is a grave evil. If people want to take it and have contraceptive sex…they get the consequences.

  190. Entropy is my god

    Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God.” (I CORINTHIANS 6:9-11)

    So Corinthians is bullshit? Because it clearly says the effeminate will not inherit.

  191. Sir_Chancealot

    Something I have said to SSM a couple of times is “You write for the lurkers, not for the commenters.” How many guys on Roissy (et. al.) followed what he said, got some success with women, found one they liked, settled down, and never went on to be a PUA? You think they commented a bunch, or just lurked, learned, tried it out, and said “Wow! This actually works!” The thing that burns out the PUAs isn’t all the women they sleep with, it’s all the women they sleep with and then realize, yes, AWALT. They never find their one whose worth is greater than rubies. Read what they say, not what their detractors and opponents say.

    How many young women read SSM, think “I’ll give this feminine thing a try”, snag them some young buck stud, and never comment on here? Why is advising young women on girl game so wonderful and awesome, and so Godly that even the angels are in awe, but talk about guy game to some of you guys and you’d think we suggested giving Satan a hand job?

    Women have one rule, only one, to avoid getting played by PUAs. “I will not let your naked penis touch me until we are married”. That’s it. All the game in the world isn’t going to defeat that, if a woman means it.

    Young women (heck, even some of the older ones) have been lied to by society, their peers, older people, and, yes, EVEN the “Church”. (There’s a reason “churchianity” has been coined, people.) In a way, I feel sorry for them. In another way, I also laugh at them. Women today are feral, and they don’t even know it. Worse, when you show it to them, they don’t care.

    The problem these young Christian males have ISN’T they don’t know God, they aren’t following him, etc., etc., etc. The problem is they are young, horny, want to do the right thing, and “Christian” leaders pastors, and shepherds aren’t giving them the information to accomplish their goals. The PUAs ARE.

    You people who are starting this “biblical masculinity” are so close to the Mark Driscoll’s and Rick Warren’s that you can’t even see the forest because of all the trees. Who was it that commented upstream that seduction was sin, and that even in a marriage there shouldn’t be seduction? Are you f’in INSANE? Hell, that’s one of the funnest parts of being married! As I said in another comment, have any of you people even READ Song of Solomon? A young woman is telling her lover to “browse among your lilies until the break of dawn”. Did y’all not have as good an English teacher as I did in high school? Anyone who has studied Shakespeare, or poetry in general, knows EXACTLY what she is telling him. Here’s a modern day translation for all of those with reading comprehension issues: “Bang me until the sun comes up.”

    Near as I can tell, gentlemen, once a man sticks his unit into a woman, they are married. Not by some piece of paper, not by some priest, pastor, or shepherd. The only example I’ve seen otherwise is Adam and Eve, and that was mandated by God himself.

    You guys starting “biblical masculinity” are a solution in search of a problem. Joseph of Jackson did his thing because of what the “church” had become. How is your “biblical masculinity” going to help these dudes get a wife, and get lots of sex? How are you going to tell young men how to avoid women who are just using them for the free food, booze, and entertainment? If you are a man, and a virgin, what real life advice can you give to a young man on sexual issues, other than “don’t stick it in until you are married”? Now, if you are offering advice to men who can’t get a wife, even with game, on how to still have a meaningful life, then more power to you.

    Here’s a little test for your “biblical masculinity”. Why is it easier for me to get a woman out of her panties, than to get her to go on a date with me? Roissy would know the answer. Rollo, Deti, Dalrock, Ian, and a few others would have the answer. SSM MIGHT have an answer. What do you “biblical masculinity” guys have? (Real example, by the way.)

    The PUAs might be immoral, but when a man goes to them and says “Despite all the dangers, I want a woman for an LTR that leads to marriage”, very, very few of them will say “No, I’m not going to help”. What they will say is “Okaaaay… here’s how you do that.” You “biblical masculinity” guys are basically advising men to MGTOW, which is fine, as long as that is what they want. At least PUAs offer them some hope. And that’s all some of those guys need to be successful, someone who tells them “You can do this, and I’ll show you how”.

    Another thing. What kind of man could stand to be in an organization that doesn’t kick out other men that like to stick their dicks into children? How can you even be a part of that?

    One last thing to Ton: Ton, while I agree with you a LOT, be EXTREMELY CAREFUL about asking God to show you things you might not (in hindsight) want to see. He might grant that prayer. There are some things you cannot unsee or unlearn. Also, whether you believe it or not, fasting is both a defensive and offensive weapon against evil spirits. I know whereof I speak in this matter.

    Disclaimer for those who need it: Was married for 6 years, until my wife died. Had one son until he too, died. Would love to be in a serious relationship, but women today want no part of it. They will, however, actively and vigorously bed me. PUA? Only by necessity, not by choice. If giving them some penis is the cost of having some female companionship once in a while, I choose to pay that price.

  192. Chad

    @ Entropy
    The definition of Christian is someone who follows Christ and his teachings.

    If someone doesn’t believe all the Christian teachings, start to finish, I don’t consider them Christian. There’s a reason people started calling most of society Churchian. Tell me, how do you define the difference between the two terms? For me, I use scripture and the teachings we’re given. If they don’t follow those in their actions, and seek repentance when they fail, they’re not Christian.

    There are very specific lessons addressing those that appear to be faithful and yet are not. I fail to see why addressing the topic under that light is a ‘invalid debate technique’

    @ Ton

    You’re restating what we’ve both already said and agreed with while deliberately evading the point.

    @ SD

    So you’d say that a man who explicitly goes against God’s Will and replaces it with his own human will is Christian? I’d disagree.

  193. Sarah's Daughter

    I said nothing of the sort, I said your statement is bullshit. Surely just another wording error on your part.

    As I think on what you said, again I am convinced you are off in a bad way. Either you are completely convinced you are no longer a sinner, or you believe we lose our Christianity when we sin, or something, but something is very jacked up about the way you think. Very immature and naive. How old are you? Meaning for how long have you been a Christian. You speak as a new convert.

  194. Entropy is my god

    @ Sarahs Daughter

    Okay so we are playing a game of semantics then.

    Ton Says
    “A man can’t be Christian if he lacks a Godly Masculinity”

    To which you reply
    “this is bullshit”

    So Corinthians clearly states that the effeminate will not inherit, we agree on that, it seems that you are positing that Christian != inheriting the kingdom of God, is that correct?

    If so please define “Christian”

  195. Sarah's Daughter

    It wasn’t Ton who stated that.
    The statement reads as if a condition must be met in order to become a Christian. This is not semantics. It is an ever increasing pattern in this man’s writing. He has previously distinguished “sinners” from “Christians”.

  196. earl

    “So Corinthians is bullshit? Because it clearly says the effeminate will not inherit.”

    Nope. None of those lines are bullshit.

    And I will remind everyone…it also includes fornicators in that list. So who is a worse man in your eyes…an effiminate or a fornicator? To God…it’s all the same.

  197. earl

    In essence…telling an effeminte man to fornicate to become the definition of real masculinity is trading one sin for another.

  198. Entropy is my god

    @Sarahs Daughter

    You are correct it came from Chad. Still, this is interesting and while Chad tries to use the no true Scotsman technique, this particular line of his has drawn out an interesting conversation.

  199. Ton

    Sorry Chad, not following you? But it seems to me you are using the no true Scott’s men type thing meaning if she really believes she won’t sin. Which is false. Not sure what you thinking I am side stepping so lay it out for me

    Earl you keep bringing up the pill as if God cannot over come such a thing, not me

    Great post Sir and thank you for the warning. I think we have a similar set of experiences on somethings

  200. Ton

    Thanks SD. That was not me. To be a Christian you have to believe in Christ as the Son of God who paid the blood price. If some sort of perfection is required…… Well we are all doomed I reckon.

  201. Chad

    @ Entropy

    Sarah’s Daughter seems to have a habit of picking apart a statement rather than reading a whole. First she literally asked me for an answer i gave in a comment mere sentences after what she cherry picked. This time she seems to have forgotten that answer I gave her before she asked for it and again cherry picks. I state that being a man of God requires one be a man and have Godly Masculinity – replacing our own fallen will with God’s Will. She says that BS, I call her on it, and now she tries to deflect on saying “because Chad doesn’t say what I want him to say every time, he must not believe what he has already said he believes!”

    SD
    Christ himself says you must follow specific things to be a Christian. OF COURSE I’m going to believe what Christ says. I drop my cross multiple times. I fail. I repent. I pick my cross back up, and I follow Christ.

    If someone does not believe in Christ’s teachings, they are not following Christ. They are not Christian.

  202. earl

    “Who posited that fornication=masculinity?”

    Nobody that I know of around the manosphere.

    However that’s what I’m reading into when it comes to a lot of these blogs. They would still be stuck as weak beta males with no purpose if they weren’t getting laid. Now that a few ladies have thrown their vags at them they think they are the Return of Kings. Perhaps my judgement isn’t sound but to me it looks like building their house on sand.

    I have a purpose and it has nothing to do with whether women approve of it or not…because most of them probably won’t (if you believe women don’t want virtuous men). Building the foundation on rock.

  203. SirNemesis

    @ Eidolon

    For people like that, for people like me, game was invaluable. When PUAs say it doesn’t “work” with all women, they mean some women won’t sleep with you within a few dates, not that it isn’t attractive.

    This. The success rate that the PUAs are measuring is whether they get a quick lay or not. That doesn’t mean game isn’t successful with other women; it’s just not successful in the same way.

  204. earl

    “Earl you keep bringing up the pill as if God cannot over come such a thing, not me ”

    God will overcome the pill. I’m telling you He will overcome it by allowing us to have civilization decline because of it. Now how do you think God will overcome it?

  205. sunshinemary Post author

    @ runsonmagic and SirNemesis
    I considered deleting your comments about the Virgin Mary and cuckoldry, but I showed them to my husband this morning, and he told me to let them stand. His reasoning was that, as neither of you are Christians, how could you be expected to draw conclusions other than the ones you did, based on teaching from actual Christian pastors like Mark Driscoll who make ridiculous and blasphemous assertions like “Mary was a single mom.”?

    However, kindly remember that this is a Christian site and, while you do not have to ascribe to Christian beliefs to participate here, you need to be respectful of Christianity in your comments. Further comments along those lines will have to be deleted. Thank you for understanding.

  206. Deep Strength

    I find this whole thing fascinating.

    1. There’s a lot pushback on “godly masculinity” from the non-Christians which is not entirely unexpected. However, the question is why? Why do they even care what Christians are doing with “game” or “godly masculinity”?

    2. There’s a lot of pushback from Christians on “godly masculinity” and instead they attempt to defend “game” instead. It makes absolutely no sense as a Christian to defend game over a potential alternative that may not lead Christians down the road of the PUA/player.

    This is where I think Keoni gets it absolutely correct. If there’s people attempting to explore how to be a godly man “without game” or “reconstructing masculinity” then more power to them.

    3. Chad’s argument is not a “no true Scotsman” fallacy just as my argument that Christian nice guys are not masculine is not a fallacy. Jesus said that you’ll know them by their fruits. If a so-called “Christian” is bearing bad fruit and not repenting and changing their ways they are not a “Christian.” Likewise, Christian “nice guys” are known by their fruits. They are indeed not men — they are effeminate. Men are — by the intention of their Creator — masculine and not effeminate.

  207. JDG

    Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him.

  208. JDG

    Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

  209. Aquinas Dad

    DS,
    Well written.
    And can we put to rest the term ‘nice guy’, please? There are good men, there are bad men, there are strong men, there are weak men, etc., sure.
    As far as I can tell ‘nice guy’ is what passive-aggressives call themselves so let’s just call them passive-agressives and move on.
    [another reason my heart aches for so many who write about "game" online. They write 'I used to be a nice guy and never had sex. Now I use "game" and I do get sex!" but what I hear in my head is 'I used to be an insecure narcissist who was secretly full of rage but pretended to be nice and polite but it never allowed me to commit moratal sins; now I am an insecure narcissist who is secretly full of rage but pretend to be a psychopath and I endanger my immortal soul all the time!']

  210. Rollo Tomassi

    @SSM, just to bring this thing full circle, which guy has a better understanding of women; the pastor who married his only high school GF and later discovered she wasn’t as virtuous as she’d led him to believe after they’d married, or the high profile PUA with countless lays who’s taken very personal risks to promote traditional gender roles.

    Both of them encourage a return to traditional gender roles, and I know you’re familiar with both of their approaches, but who’s approach has more validity? The pastor with his head firmly stuck in the Matrix and exclusively faults men for the current gender conditions, or the potentially prodigal PUA who’s campaigning for traditional gender roles because after all his experience with women he now understands not only the source of our gender conditions, but now sees the value in returning to traditional roles?

    You yourself tweeted that you were amazed that “PUAs” (loose term) were campaigning for traditional roles, yet “Christians” (loose term) were pushing (in every sect) for more egalitarian equality. Not a day goes by on this blog that some new twist of feminism’s insaturation into mainstream religions isn’t discussed. Is it really that hard to accept that maybe the majority of guys you’d consider PUA really desire what God or tradition used to prescribe for men and women as a result of their greater (though sinful) experiences with women?

    I can’t speak for single Red Pill men, christian or otherwise, but I’ll say for myself that I’m a better Man and a better husband, and a better father to my daughter because of my past experience, good and bad. I didn’t come to what I write about Game-awareness because I did everything right, but mostly because I got so much wrong.

    As far as I know God has only used one perfect person in the history of the world. The rest were killers, adulterers, polygamists, tax collectors, whores, betrayers and worse. That’s not to say we should aspire to holiness, but to be human is to be imperfect. We were made that way.

  211. earl

    Here’s the thing Rollo.

    PUAs campaign for it…but really just want the women to stay on their slutty ways while they get a sandwich out of the deal. If they want tradition…then they should campaign both parts. Women’s virtues and bodies. I have yet to see one denounce the carousel, birth control, or getting the highest n count. They only tell you it’s happening because they are knee deep in it.

    Christians campagin for egalitarianism equality…but nowhere in the Bible does it say that men and women are equal. Men have their roles and women have theirs on the planet and it is addressed many times in the Bible.

    Both sides are saying one thing…while their actual beliefs differ.

  212. Deep Strength

    @ Aquinas Dad

    I stick with “nice guy” because it gets the point home across easily enough.

    Plus I’d have to rewrite a bunch of titles of posts on the blog,

  213. anonymous_ng

    So much discussion seems to surround an unspoken assumption that one must have a clear word from God before making a decision. Is it sinful to marry without consulting God?

    Some folks ask where is God making his presence known. Others ask where are the people asking and waiting patiently on an answer.

    One thing I’ve observed from the scriptures is that when God speaks, there is virtually no ambiguity about whether he spoke, and yet my observation is that in modern Christianity, people are frantically putting out some kind of fleece hoping to hear more clearly from an inscrutable God which direction to take on whether to buy a minivan or a station wagon.

    While the idea that God kicked the universe into motion and has since then been sitting back watching what’s happening flies in the face of the scriptures, it seems to me closer to the reality than the mad scramble for a word from God about every decision in life that seems to my eye to be the behavior of evangelical Christendom[anecdotes != data].

  214. Keoni Galt

    Well Rollo can most certainly speak for himself, but from where I’m sitting, AD, much of your criticism of Game looks like it’s based on false dichotomies.

    1. The basic analysis of male nature (alpha/beta/gamma/delta/sigma) is obviously wrong or, if you prefer, so simplistic and broad as to be meaningless.

    It is not an analysis of male nature, it is an analysis of the male hierarchy of sexual attractiveness to females. That’s it.

    2. Within the metastructure of “game” masculine analysis the core traits of an alpha (some claim it is to have the ‘dark triad’ of narcissism, Machiavellianism, and psychopathy; most claim that it at lest involves a near-total lack of empathy, limited or absent emotional attachment, the purposeful inducement of negative emotions or sinful thoughts into others, etc)) are inherently dysfunctional, immoral or both.

    False dichotomy. The reason why so many Game folks discuss “the dark triad” is to point out WHY the dark triad traits appear to be so attractive to women…mainly because psychopathy and narcissism are the anti-thesis of the “wear his emotions on his sleeve nice guy in touch with their feminine side” that current society and Churchianity trains the majority of males to be. Most game advice is to not become a narcissistic psychopath, but to understand that being an accommodating, supplicating “nice guy” trying to woo women with obsequiousness is a sure path to failure and frustration.

    In other words, what are the things dark triad men do that works? They don’t care about women getting hysterical. They are indifferent to feminine attempts at manipulation. They project unshakeable confidence. These are the things MOST pro-game folks understand are about when we discuss the “dark triad.” Even if you read Chateau Heartiste’s many posts on the topic of “dark triad” if you read close enough, you see that he never explicitly advocates that men BECOME narcissistic psychopaths…more like he is gleefully destroying the image of pedastalized femininity that beta men have of “good” women. i.e. You think women are the vestige of purity and chastity? Well look at what they are really attracted to, and why “game” seems to work on them.

    3. The goal of “game” is to emulate the traits of an alpha in order to be promiscuous (roissy specifically states that a man who is not promiscuous when young cannot be alpha).

    The goal of “Game” is for males to become masculine men with divergent interests and developed talents, which leads to real confidence. Real confidence is the one masculine trait females are intrinsically attracted to. Note one of Roissy’s infamous “16 commandments” is for men to find their mission in life and pursue it…NOT make the woman (or the relationship with her) his mission. This perfectly aligns with what Chad, DS et al are doing right now in promoting Godly Masculinity. Much of what they are writing about now boils down to “follow God, and she may come.”

    And oh yeah, one more thing…the other aspect of “dark triad” men that women find attractive is the capacity for lethal violence. One need not embrace narcissism nor psychopathy to develop this.

    Also, “Roissy” has repeatedly stated (which hearkens back to point #1) that the “Alpha-Beta” taxonomy merely reflects a man’s attractiveness to women. An “Alpha” is desired by many women THAT’S IT. As roissy and many others frequently note, a man can be “alpha” in terms of leadership and charisma with other men, and hold all the trappings of wealth and power, but an utter pussy whipped pansy Beta with women.

    AD, I’ve been a near-daily reader of his blog since 2009. I’m positive you’ve only perused a few posts, and for sure you did so with many pre-concieved notions and extreme prejudice.

    A: based upon 1, 2, and 3 it is patently obvious that “game” is objectionable in general and to Christians (and Jews) in particular. Even if the ludicrous categories are correct the purpose is to imitate amoral narcissists.

    Based upon your false dichotomies in your points 1-3, sure “game” is objectionable.

    I’m going to reiterate what Deep Strength pointed out earlier – for guys like he and Donal and Earl and many others seeking to lead other men towards Godly masculinity and away from promiscuous immorality, God bless you, I wish you great success.

  215. Just Saying

    @Ton: “I trust in the man He made me to be.”

    Every now and then I’ll be chatting with a SYT and I don’t try to hide how I am – usually if she is asking, she’s interested, and some of the time it’s after the fact and she just wants to know what she’s bought into. But some of the more religious ones will point out how what I do “seems” “un-Christian” and of course I’ll point out the fact that in the OT there were lots of men with multiple wives – and how did they “marry”? It was an agreement between the parties, yada yada… It’s pure BS but it makes about as much sense as lots of the stuff that they accept, or rationalize to themselves. So the slam-dunk is always, “How do I know that I’m not this way for a reason, only HE understands?” You can almost see their circuits cross and short… Sort of like the old Star Trek with Harry Mudd and the Androids. (Now I’ve confused all of the younger guys that think ST started with TNG – and the little pansy Piccard. I liked Kirk’s philosophy of, “I’ll either kill it or f**k it, either way works for me.”)

    Anyway… Always trust in yourself. After all there are people who refuse modern medicine and “put their faith in the Lord” and we usually call them, “Deceased” so don’t tempt fate. Always plan for the worst, and you will be happy with whatever outcome you get, since it could have been worse…

  216. Keoni Galt

    After all there are people who refuse modern medicine and “put their faith in the Lord” and we usually call them, “Deceased” so don’t tempt fate.

    I find this one particularly amusing. I know more than a few people who “put their faith in modern medicine” and are now deceased because of it.

  217. Carlotta

    @ Entrophy

    I am instructed to be ready to give a reason for my Hope which is in my Risen Savior. Ton is in pain and we are also instructed to pull our family from the fire.

  218. Cautiously Pessimistic

    tm2- “This whole society just depresses the crap out of me.”

    Some things in life are bad.
    They can really make you mad.
    Other things just make you swear and curse.

    When you’re chewing on life’s gristle,
    don’t grumble, give a whistle.
    And this’ll help things turn out for the best…

    And…

  219. Aquinas Dad

    Keoni,
    Thank you for your reasoned response. Now go fu-
    Just kidding!
    Keoni, while I do understand the points you are presenting let me very gently suggest that you are misusing the word ‘dichotomy’.
    Let me rephrase.

    “The basic analysis that leads to the classification system of alpha/beta/etc, is quite obviously wrong.”
    As are many of the blanket statements made about ‘alphas’, ‘betas’, etc.

    You say,
    “Most game advice is to not become a narcissistic psychopath”
    Yeah, I know. It is to *emulate the behavior’ of narcissistic psychopaths. Indeed, since you directly quote me saying that originally I am not sure why you included this.
    I know roissy isn’t saying ‘become a narcissistic psycho’, but he *is*, by your admission and his own clear statements, telling people to *act like one*. Which is what I said. Which is what is objectionable. If you aren’t really a racist but act like one, guess what? Same with this.

    You write,
    “The goal of “Game” is for males to become masculine…”
    This is, at best, debatable. The goal of “game” is to emulate narcissistic psychopathic behavior for the purpose of immoral activity. Admonitions to have hobbies, get in shape, etc. are, as I clearly pointed out, much older than “game” and so common as to be the core of the general self-help movement in general. That is why I focus on the things peculiar to “game” as presented by roosh and roissy and a handful of others which are, largely, bad pseudo-science on what women find attractive/how men should act (the alpha/beta/etc. nonsense), and the clearly stated goals of “game” is is to *AVOID* real relationships and instead participate in hedonistic sex for sex’s sake.
    Those are the 1, 2, and 3 of my list of objections for a reason.
    BTW – roissy’s ‘sixteen commandments’ never mention masculinity.

    You write,
    ” “Roissy” has repeatedly stated (which hearkens back to point #1) that the “Alpha-Beta” taxonomy merely reflects a man’s attractiveness to women. An “Alpha” is desired by many women THAT’S IT”
    This is simply false. roissy’s definition of alpha is rather – fluid – but he does state that a man who is NOT promiscuous in his youth ‘cannot be an alpha'; Indeed, roissy’s post ‘Defining an alpha’ *directly contradicts* your statement in that he defined a man who *was* very attractive to many women as ‘beta’ because he was not promiscuous, or at least not obviously promiscuous enough.
    Who should I believe about what roissy says, you or roissy? Or should you admit that roissy, roosh, etc. are so inconsistent as to what ‘alpha/beta/blah blah blah’ actually mean as to make it (as I pointed out above) effectively meaningless?

    Keoni, I believe you when you write about your goals and because of that I believe you are a decent fellow. Please consider that I may be right about this. Men of goodwill may disagree, and I wish you the very best

  220. Artisanal Toad

    Yep DS it is the same lame answer that is always bandied about. I believe in a number of things, but in this case, God does not care. I am willing to bet good money if we made a list, we’d come up with a lot more items on the God doesn’t care side. Are we nit supposed to weigh the evidenced? ~Ton

    So Ton? To answer your question – God abandoned marriages when either the man and woman (or both) in the marriage drove him out. ~Chad

    Romans 1:18-32 is a prophesy and I believe it’s been being fulfilled in the US for the past 50+ years. The wrath of “giving them over” at each point in that 3-part prophesy is that God pulled back, removed His restraint and in a sense, abandoned them. Personally, I think that each element of this prophesy is generational, or about 20 years.

    We went from impurity (divorce, adultery, fornication) from, say, 1960 to 1980. Look at the explosion in divorce during that period. Everyone has their own hobbyhorse and some point to birth control pills and feminism, why can’t those things be also explained by God giving them over? Next was degrading passions (homosexuality) in the 80’s and 90’s (in which the “penalty in their own flesh” made itself known). Finally, we got to the last one (Romans 1:28). He gave them over to a depraved mind to do that which is not proper. By my reckoning, we’re 14 years into this stage of people just losing their minds. Expect to see more failed marriages, more problems and don’t expect to see God stepping in because He is pouring His wrath out on this nation. The house is on fire and He’s going to let it burn.

    So, I find myself in agreement with Chad, one or both of the partners turned their back on God and so God turned His back on them.

    “Do not pollute the land with blood, for there can be no atonement except by the blood of those who shed it.”

    If one looks at the penalties for refusing to obey God, the last one is destruction. Turn your back on God often enough, He turns His back on you and there is plenty of support for that. However, faith is the hope in things not yet seen. I expect to see a lot of people die in order to atone for the blood of 50 million aborted kids, and I’ve explained elsewhere how I expect that to happen. Israel went through this and God withheld the rain for years. The Prophet Elijah was convinced he was the only one but God said He still had 5000 who had not bowed the knee and kissed the baal.

    Have faith and don’t give up hope. You got to read the last chapter of the book, so you know how it ends. If you believe that, hang in there.

  221. Ton

    Think on this and what it implies about God

    One partner turned their back on Him, so He turned His back on both of them. Punish two, abounded two because of one….

    Y’all do not make a good case for following the Almighty.

    And we are not family woman.

  222. Deep Strength

    Ton,

    Your statement is incorrect.

    Genesis 2:24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

    They are one flesh. When “one” of them turns it is “one” turning their back.

    This is why 1 Cor 7 and 1 Peter 3 are so important for showing how a husband and wife must act if their spouses are unbelievers or acting like unbelievers. Additionally, that’s why it is important to not be yoked to an unbeliever.

  223. Chad

    Ton,
    You’re trying to claim that, no where along the way, could any action one of the two in the marriage be involved in the chain of events that led to the divorce.

    This is false

    If nothing else, Deep Strength has already mentioned marrying someone who is an unbeliever. I’ve already stated my own way of defining that, which is the actual act of follow Christ rather than any words shown empty through lack of action.

    On top of that, it is both people’s responsibility to lead the other to heaven. If one of them strays, it is necessary to look at why and how. Did the woman become attracted to her boss at work and leave her husband for him? Well, where was the husband? Why’d he let her out of the house instead of keeping her home with the kids? Stay at home moms are traditional for a reason, they’re a sacrifice to obtain and a blessing to have. If the man left the wife for a newer model, what could the wife done? Did she get fat, naggy, cold hearted?

    Causation in these situations is hard to determine, but to deny complete lack of responsibility is… well, irresponsible and shows a lack of leadership. Yes, the person that led the divorce is obviously sinning. But to say that they’re the only one sinning is usually wrong and a…. shallow way of looking at how any relationship, let alone marriages, work. What’s more, is that how hard they are to maintain is why it is so, SO crucial to maintain a traditional community in which to support your choices.

    I got blasted up above for pointing out that God, the Patriarchs of the Old Testament, the Apostles, and Christ have a great deal to say on keeping a holy company and community. I got blasted for pointing out that it takes a great deal of all seven virtues (a crucial part of Godly Masculinity) to develop such a community while still caring for individual souls. I’m sure I’ll get blasted again for those and more.

    But you know what?

    As far as I can see, no one has even tried to raise a scriptural argument against me. So far all I’ve gotten is the “You’re not nice” chorus, with a brief line of “He’s haughty” by Sarah’s Daughter before reverting back to the chorus. Even people who (mistakenly) disagreed with the type of debate I was using (claiming its a Scotsman) agreed that I brought interesting poitns and led to an interesting discussion. Meanwhile I’ve heard no alternative suggestions on how to stay true to God’s Will, which I’d love to hear. Instead, the only response I’ve seen is that we should be conforming to the world rather than being in the world, practicing game, putting down our crosses, and joining the seething masses of unrepentant.

    As if you believe God demands -less- of us when facing evil instead of asking -more- of us! Such a ridiculous thought! He made us to rise to the challenges before us, that we might show our devotion and love. He did not make us to bow to any besides himself; certainly not to the evils we confront

    That path of conforming to the world is not for me, and I doubt that few can resist the calls of the world, the flesh, and the devil. As such, while I acknowledge some few might survive, I advocate the traditional ways, the proven ways, and that all men search for the strength in God to make those a reality again on this world.

  224. Bike Bubba

    @SSM, just to bring this thing full circle, which guy has a better understanding of women; the pastor who married his only high school GF and later discovered she wasn’t as virtuous as she’d led him to believe after they’d married, or the high profile PUA with countless lays who’s taken very personal risks to promote traditional gender roles.?

    OK, for starters, even though it didn’t end well for the pastor, he knows the reality of sin just as well as the PUA, and he also knows the psychology of woman better because he’s actually stayed with one for a period of time.

    And we’re to actually suggest that Mr. Pumpanddump really wants a return to traditional roles, say including the shotgun wedding, till death do us part, and the like? Horsefeathers. He wants a self-supporting, breathing blow up doll with knee pads who arrives on demand and makes sammitches.

  225. Bike Bubba

    Ton, it’s worth noting that the whoredom described in Romans 1 comes after a people decide that the knowledge of God is no longer worth while. So no, Romans 1 does not portray the punishment of a man for his wife’s whoredom. The man does face some things due to this–STDs, paying for kids who are not his, heartbreak, etc..–but the point of Romans 1 is that whoredom is the punishment for neglecting the knowledge and worship of God.

  226. Artisanal Toad

    @Ton
    I get what you’re saying, but it’s like being on patrol: one man screws up and everybody pays. One guy on a forward base decides to abandon his post and it leaves a hole in the line. The enemy attacks, the perimeter is overrun and a lot of good people get wounded, killed or captured because one guy turned his back on duty and honor. I’m just saying not to blame God for it. Just like in your case, my wife decided to turn her back on the marriage and she used the system destroy the family and hurt me and the kids. Now she hurts the kids in order to hurt me. So, yeah, I’m wounded but I refuse to allow myself to be captured by the enemy and I will die before I give up.

    I don’t know why God allowed this to happen to me, other than what I wrote above, or perhaps to open my eyes to what’s really going on. She will have to answer for what she’s done one day and I don’t think it’s going to be pretty. But God also judges in real-time.

    There are many (and I’m one of them) who think that New York City is the modern-day Babylon described in Revelation 18. The “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the Great” at verse 18:2 was the twin towers falling and verses 17 and 18 fit with that very well. Recall the photos taken from sea of the towers burning and the ash that covered everyone and everything afterward. So, if you can buy that, check out verse 21, which occurs at a later point in time:

    “And a strong angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, “Thus will Babylon, the great city, be thrown down with violence, and will not be found any longer.” Revelation 18:21

    I believe our nation is already under judgment and it always ends in destruction if the people don’t repent. Seen much repentance lately? Yep, I haven’t either. This is a “great stone” that if cast into the sea will create the exact conditions described in verses 22-24. The pictures you’ll want to look at are on page three of this paper: http://www.es.ucsc.edu/~ward/papers/La_Palma_grl.pdf

    Their prediction of “a great sequence” of tidal waves between 10 and 25 meters high hitting all along the east coast of the US will destroy NYC and the rest of this country. I’m guessing that for a period of half an hour to an hour those waves are going to keep pounding and the entire East Coast will be either badly damaged or just plain gone. A rolling blackout will take down the electric grid nationwide and there goes the financial network and suddenly nobody’s plastic will do anything. There will be millions of refugees and who knows how many dead. The shooting will start within hours and nothing will ever be the same again.

    We could literally have a different country within a matter of hours at any time and I guarantee you that one of the first casualties will be feminism. It’s ironic that in the famine that follows the fatties will have the best chance of making it but they’ll have to have men to protect them. The definition of “high value” will change overnight. Got food? Good. Can you produce food? Better. Can you defend it? Then you da man… and shine will be rather a rather valuable commodity too. Got some useful young lads willing to follow your lead who can shoot and scoot? If you can feed them, then you da local baron, duke or whatever you want to call yourself. Either way, go get your kids. Whether you want their mother back is another story, but protecting you and yours will be the name of the game at that point.

  227. Artisanal Toad

    @Bubba
    –but the point of Romans 1 is that whoredom is the punishment for neglecting the knowledge and worship of God.

    Amazingly, I find myself in agreement with you. I should have made that more clear because that’s also the point of the examples I just used.

  228. Bike Bubba

    Count me amazed as well that you’d submit to the clear text of Romans 1:21-2. Now, let’s work on Deuteronomy 17:17, Titus 1:6, 1 Timothy 3:2, and 1 Timothy 3:12 regarding that silly endorsement of polygamy you’ve got going….

  229. Chad

    @ Ton
    “Got it. God punishes a man for his wife’s whoring.
    Y’all are most def all about the FI”

    You married her.

    “Take good heed to yourselves, therefore, to love the Lord your God. For if you turn back, and join the remnant of those nations left here among you, and make marriages with them, so that you marry their women and they yours, know assuredly that the Lord your God will not continue to drive out these nations before you; but they shall be a snare and a trap for you, a scourage on your sides, and thorns in your eyes, till you perish from off this good land which the Lord your God has given you” – Joshua 23:11-13

    The Old Testament has lesson after lesson after lesson of not marrying women who do not love God. It is the major downfall of Israel nearly every single time – being led astray from God by marrying women they should not have, and being punished for it. What do you think the lesson of Hosea was for? How about Samuel? Solomon? David’s himself lost a great deal for lusting after the wrong woman.

    I truly am sorry for your pain, and the pain of other men. But this has been going on for decades. Even after untold pain people still rail against the whole thing.

    I’m not for the feminine imperative, I’m for God. And he makes very clear that the kind of behavior that we’re society engages in results in exactly the type of consequences we’re facing. The first step is to stop marrying people like your wife by correctly identifying people that are actually Christian and not those that say they’re Christian while sacrificing all their time, energy, money, etc to pursuits and loves of this fallen world.

  230. Ton

    I don’t blame God AT. My ex acted of her own will. What you are saying is not what the other two are saying. The other two are saying the faithful spouse is being punished by God for the other spouse being unfaithful.

    God has no balme in what happened in my marriage, He also doesn’t care by all observable measure. Which is the length of my arugement. God, by and large doesn’t care, does not act in the world or in lives of typical people. Prayer and fasting etc delivers nothing the vast majority of time because God doesn’t care what occurs to the vast majority of the people. The Bibke covers when He does decide to act. It leaves out all the other men who were/ are left in the wind. No balme assigned but Christians should act to improve their life, the world around them vs more time reading, praying etc etc

    The other side, they act and they are winning. Our side wants to beg for help and read. We are lossing .

  231. Ton

    Look Chad, I married a vrigin who went to chruch twice a week, came form an intact family, no birth control when she was 17 etc etc.

    Yes I married her but I did all a man can do on the vetting end. You should speak on what you know and don’t go to visiting my life.

  232. Artisanal Toad

    @Ton
    I think that sometimes He allows us to swing in the wind for a while in order to test us, help our faith to grow and to perfect our willingness to lean on Him. For those who remain faithful, well, witness what happened to Job. Look at the questions Job answered and then look at how God answered them. If anybody had the “right” to think that God didn’t care, it was Job, but even after all he had endured his response was “naked I came into the world and naked I will leave, blessed be the name of the Lord.”

    Finally, look at Ephesians 5:18 in conjunction with the parable of the 10 virgins. If we get the Holy Spirit when we’re saved, why are we commanded to be filled with the Holy Spirit? All 10 virgins had oil in their lamps, but 5 of them had extra flasks of oil and when they were asked to share their oil they said no, go buy your own. The implication is they had to pay for that extra filling of the Holy Spirit. We’ve both paid a price that some of our fellow commentators cannot possibly fathom, I’m just saying not to give up, hang in there and make sure what you get is worth the price you’re paying. The implication of that parable and the fact that the 5 foolish virgins got their extra oil is that there’s still time.

    What I know and what I’ve seen is that sometimes God takes, but God also gives back and God gives more and better. I’ve seen it in my life and we also have His promise that to those who overcome, He will give even more. Revelation 1-3, the epistles of Christ.

    @Chad
    Are you married? If so, for how long? How long have you been a Christian?

    I generally ignore the discussions of whether game is good or bad and the oh-so-varied definitions of what game actually is and is not. However, it appears to me that you’re in a pilgrims/puritans argument here, so expect to take some heat. I know all about generating heat on this blog… and If you don’t believe me, take a look at the comment thread linked below.

    @Bubba
    I dealt with those arguments here and summarized the arguments of the entire thread here. You might want to read my responses that follow if you’re going to respond. SSM still has the comments on that thread open, so if you want to make a response to my answers to you, be my guest, but I don’t want to clog any more of her threads with that argument.

  233. Chad

    @ Ton

    You seem to think that I’m speaking on you, individually.

    What about the community you were in? Were all of the women virgins that went to church twice a week? If the women fell into sexual sin, were they made to repent or were the men given ‘man up and marry her’ speeches? Does it accept single mothers who are living in sin? Does it accept people that co-habitate? Does it preach on modest dress? How about head of household? Where does it stand on abortion? How strict does it stay to the 10 commandments? Does it veer from correct teachings, or does it stay true to God? If people within the church stray, does it attempt to correct them or does it leave them lost?

    Every passage I could name about the sins of Israel marrying non-believers is in the context of community at the smallest level, but most often as a nation. There are also a great deal of passages where the leaders of Israel sin, and the bible cites their lives of sin as leading to the country sinning. From this I infer that God desires, quiet strongly, that we put forth the great amount of effort to forge communities that follow his will under leaders that are loyal to God.

    This is why I take such a strong stance on developing communities of Christians, rather than churchians – because God does.

  234. Chad

    @ AT
    No, I am not married. Closest I’ve been was a long term relationship (3 years) with a woman, of which I lived with her for 2.5 of that. If that makes a difference to you, you can feel free to dismiss everything I’ve said and I won’t really be angry.

    As for Christian, I was raised Christian. Evangelical if it makes a difference to you. As you can guess from above, I fell away from that in college, lived in sin, and suffered greatly for it spiritually, financially, and physically.

    I came back to Christianity 8 months ago, found Catholicism and the Traditional Latin Mass, and love it. When I compare the community I’m in with my church, modern society, what I saw growing up, and the bible I very clearly see exactly what I’m talking about. In my youth I knew people getting handjobs in a full passenger van during youth mission trips and the whole youth group shrugged in a “We’re young, sex is what we do” way. There were also ‘good women’ there, much the same as the wife Ton is describing. However, when they kept in that community I’ve noticed most have fallen much as his wife did.

    In contrast, my current community we actively use the word courting and mean it in every traditional way. We make sure people have chaperons of family or people already courting/dating other people even though those involved are in their 20’s. We don’t fool around with this stuff, and I actively hear sermons on respect of husbands and see that respect followed through by everyone at my church. I know 40 year old men that were introduced by priests to 20 year old women, who are now expecting their first child soon and both of them are beloved members of the community.

    The people I know actively support the ideas I’ve mentioned. We believe in those and we fight against those. There are faults, both in the individuals and the community. We actively seek to address those, to persevere and grow closer to God as a community.

    And it shows in many, many ways.

  235. Bike Bubba

    Chad, for someone who is challenging others to cite Scripture, you’re not citing much yourself, donchaknow?

    That said, take a look at Job and God’s rebuke of Bildad, Zophar, and Eliphaz for their treatment of Job in Job 42:7-8. So if one wrongly assumes that, say, Ton was responsible for his own divorce, one is falling on the wrong side of that example. Christ promises us not an easy life, but trouble, no?

    Now I’ll grant that if we obey Him, we improve our odds versus certain hazards, but again; Christ promises us trouble which we overcome through Him, not a necessarily easy life.

  236. Ton

    Chad your a….spouting off at the mouth trying to claim if folks live perfect things will be perfect. Thats not how life goes. In fact the more you type the more your bull$hit stinks. No need to address me agian with your mythical community. Still waiting on that one dude to introduce to his masculine preists or the other guy to show me all the Godly and traditional army officers.

    I did the leaning on thing AT. It brought nothing good as far as I can tell. How many times does a man go down a path that brought failure and misery?

  237. Chad

    @ Bike Bubba
    Depends on what you consider citing scripture. Yes, I didn’t point to specific passages more than a couple times, but I did point to stories. If you want me to cite half of Kings for leaders influencing their followers I will. If you want me to cite the whole war of David against his son, I will. If you want me to cite the chapters of Samuel’s wife, I will. If you want me to cite where Solomon falls because of his love of foreign women I will. However, those passages are long and not an easy couple lines, but whole chapters or books. Doing so isn’t conducive for a com box discussion, -and- those are incredibly easy to find with a quick search, but long to read.

    As for Ton relating to Job, it is thoroughly possible that Ton really got dealt a poor hand through no fault of his own. I understand that. I also understand that God’s demands of us don’t change no matter what hand we’re dealt, which is what I pointed to above.

    The reason I point to Ton is solely because Ton pointed to himself, used his own life as an example when I began speaking about generalities. If he didn’t want me to do so, he shouldn’t have acted like a solipsistic woman and made it about himself. I continued to point to Ton only when Ton pointed to himself, and I continue to point at the rest of the world and what we, as men of God, can do to change it. In the same way, I did not make the discussion about myself until someone else made it about myself, and I’ll continue to avoid making it about myself unless someone wants to challenge me on those grounds; at which point I’ll make a choice of either doing so or not.

    But, what I’ve taken away from the book of Job is that there cannot be an expectation of Justice in this world, though God promises it in the next. However, that lack of individual Justice does not change that I see the exact things the Old Testament warns against and demonstrates playing out in modern society. I advocate and take action in my own life to try and avoid those. I acknowledge that it is merely an attempt and that I do not know Gods plan, and that I am simply a fallen man doing what I can from what I’ve learned. I don’t like how hard and difficult the path appears to be, or how hard and difficult what I say is to do.

    Yet I have not been presented with an alternative

    When I am, I will evaluate it, consult scripture, discuss it with men who’s wisdom and judgment I respect. If it proves to be correct and easier I will follow it. If it proves to be correct but more difficult I will avoid it while acknowledging it could lead to success should another chose it. But, as I’ve said, no one seems to want to present an alternative that I’ve found acceptable with teachings of God. They merely say my words are harsh, that it doesn’t fit reality, and that it’s impossible.

    I never asked if it was possible. I merely concern myself with if God would have me attempt it or not. From there I will accept any what he puts in front of me, be they blessings or crosses.

  238. Bike Bubba

    Toad, look at your links again. No, you do not deal with Scripture’s clear command that the king not collect wives for himself, or that deacons and elders need to be “one woman men”, and the reasoning follows from 1 Cor. 7: that if one wife is a distraction to a man who would serve God if he would not otherwise burn with lust, how much more would it be to have multiple wives?

    The command of Scripture here is pretty clear, Toad. If a man isn’t getting along with his wife, you’ve got Matthew 18:15-19 as your recourse, not another wife. Matthew 5 contains an implicit rebuke of the Pharisaical equivalent of your plan to boot; the Pharisees were, according to the Talmuds, using just about any excuse to jettison one wife and get another. You would use the threat of another wife to get submission; they would use the threat of divorce. Both are explicitly counter to the Word of God.

  239. Chad

    @ Ton
    Meh. Up to you. As far as masculinity goes, here’s a Catholic man who my parish has brought in a few times and loves. He has multiple series on masculinity, here’s a video he did on masculinity

    He puts out new videos almost daily – much of it promoting masculinity and traditional families.

    You can also find a very good selection of sermons and homilies on a website called audio sancto. They’re very much in line with head of household, creating supporting communities, etc. I thoroughly enjoy them and would recommend them.

    If you’re not Catholic, I have very few resources for you outside of scripture.

  240. Artisanal Toad

    @Ton
    How many times does a man go down a path that brought failure and misery?

    Season a dozen of pints of ‘shine, cause I’m gonna come see you.

    If you have any young fools willing to shoot for money, let me know. 1000 yard line, 10 inch bullseye, 2 sighter shots and 10 for the money, no time limit. Tell them I’m a former marine. You provide the rifle (I’ll be travelling) but please…. not an M-14. With enough lead-time I can bring my own weapon but current issues preclude me from transporting weapons right now. Hell, I’ll outshoot them with their weapon if there’s some money on the table.

  241. Artisanal Toad

    @Bubba
    Obviously, you didn’t read the links posted or take the advice. I won’t be responding to commentary on polygyny on this thread. I gave you the correct link, use it. Make your argument and I’ll destroy it.

  242. Ton

    So he made a video and thats his man cred? Do better. Much, much better.

    No I am not catholic and could never be. Cannot sign up with the enemy of my people and our way of life.

    Have 16 quarts of shine AT. Mostly apple pie with some pineapple and peach aging nicely( 8/4/4) & can fire up the still with some lead time. My girls would love to meet you ( you arguing so well on our behalf)

    How about a rem 700, all tuned up and a Lepoid scope? Got to find a better range though. Mine stops at 800 yards

  243. FuzzieWuzzie

    Ton, I am sorry that you cannot find a clergyman to place your confidence in. You’re voicing a lot of the doubts that I have. I don’t think the answers are to be found here.
    Why do I get the feeling that we’re in a war and that we got tossed out without weapons, provisions, or, even a map?

  244. Chad

    @ AT
    I’m used to taking some heat lately. Curious though, and I waited to ask this until I read the links you mentioned, what exactly do you mean when you say this is a pilgrim/puritan debate? I’m unfamiliar with what you mean by that.

  245. Artisanal Toad

    @Ton
    I can do 800, although it feels like cheating. Get out to 1000 and it’s all about wind, mirage and trigger control. Early in the morning, no wind and no mirage, that’s cake; it’s all about shooting. I can go cold-bore at 800 with anything from a .308 to .50. Is the Remington a .308? I prefer 31.7 grains of IMR 4064 under a 168g Sierra Matchking HPBT, but will make allowances for whatever the rifle prefers. Don’t like Mexican match at all. That 147g bullet sucks bigtime. Anyway, an accurized Remington 700 is close enough to a M-40 for me, so I’m fine. I lived with a match armorer for 3 years (shared BEQ) so I learned a few things. Money on the table makes it worth the effort. Plenty of ‘shine/rum/whiskey the night before makes the money easy.

    @Chad
    Historically, the puritans decided that they wanted to stay in the church and purify it. The pilgrims decided that it wasn’t worth saving and left; as in seriously leaving. Such is the same situation with game. Some say that it’s not worth discussing and reject it (super-conservatives). Others embrace it as an amoral tool that needs to be developed in a Godly environment (Pilgrims). Still others say that it needs to be purified and put to good use within the church (Puritans). Get it?

  246. Aquinas Dad

    Ton,
    God is not punishing you. Your ex betrayed you and now you are angry and bitter.
    God did not order her to betray you. He does not demand that you be angry and bitter.
    She chose and now you choose.

  247. Ton

    Dude I shoot for work. Military ball 7.62×51 NATO. We can unlink it while we drink the night before

    I have a tuned M14(m1a1) as well. Which is my go to tool for work and fun.

    Wind is not much of an issue. I’m down in a little valley.

    Most of what I own is work related.

    Thats be ause we have been Fuzzie but its ok. It gives you the chance to grow stronger. Its the expecting help when none will come that f#cks up your thinking. Things get better, you get stronger when you realize you are on your own

  248. Parallel

    Hi Sunshine Mary,
    I really like your blog, but the way you disparage people who’ve made mistakes is really off-putting. Could I humbly recommend your encouragement of repentance, rather than calling people, male or female, nasty names or trying to brand them for life as sinners? I’m female, not a virgin, and not married, but have done my best in the past few years to repent my heart out for my past sins. Does the fact that a combination of my own sinful nature, a total lack of guidance and good role models, a sick society, and male coercion led to sinning make me totally useless for life? If you say “yes”, then I hope you’ve never committed any sins ever, or you’re just as useless as the people you deride. There are lots of people, like the formerly fat woman you wrote about in another post, who screwed up when they were younger because of stupidity, naivety, and social pressure, and who came back around to the good side through sheer willpower and honesty. Some Christians (including me) believe that knowing bad can enable one to truly become good. This has been the case, unfortunately, since Adam and Eve. It’s not ideal, but it’s reality, so there’s your “red pill”. I really love most of your ideas, and admire your honesty and moral adherence, but I highly recommend a bit more kindness and forgiveness for people who have reformed themselves. That’s not to mean laxity toward sin, but I refute your consistent notion that sinners are “damaged goods”, because, let’s face it, we’re all sinners.

  249. JDG

    Knowing bad has never enabled anyone to be truly good (Psalm 53:3, Prov 17:20, Rom 3:12). We should never make excuses for our past sins. Instead we should repent of our sin and consider ourselves dead to it (Rom 6:11, 1Pet 2:24). If we make excuses for our sin, are we really taking responsibility for our own decision to sin (James 1:14)? If we find ourselves defending sin, should we not be concerned? If one is looking back on sin with fondness, has that person really repented of it?

    It is one thing to struggle with sin and make mistakes, it is quite another to think that when you sin there won’t be (or shouldn’t be) consequences (Gal 6:7). Pointing out those consequences as a warning to others is not a bad thing, and telling someone who is in sin to stop is an act of kindness (Psalm 141:5).

    Just my two cents.

  250. Sarah's Daughter

    Could I humbly recommend your encouragement of repentance, rather than calling people, male or female, nasty names or trying to brand them for life as sinners?

    In true form, this solipsistic woman internalizes any disparaging comment made about her sin, she feels the pain and indictment of it because she has not died to it. Those who have understood the consequences of their sin and are disgusted by it, mourn their rebellion against God’s word and are overwhelmed by His Grace, when they understand the blood price Jesus paid for it on the cross, are humbled by the forgiveness they’ve received and do not deserve, they are not offended when words that fit how vile the sin is are used. This plea to coat our words with niceness is a message from the deceiver who desperately does not want us to view our sin as having been that bad.

  251. Pingback: Faith and Sacrifice « Calculated Bravery

  252. Pingback: Lightning Round – 2014/02/12 | Free Northerner

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