Avoiding, spotting, and resisting players: advice for young women.

(This is a collaborative post by Donal Graeme and Sunshine Mary.)

Given that the risk of divorce increases as a woman’s number of premarital sex partners increases, a wise young woman will not be sexually active before marriage.  She also will not waste her time searching for a boyfriend when what she really wants is a husband.  And in order to find a husband while remaining chaste, she needs to avoid players.

Avoiding players

Why should young women avoid players?  Dalrock recently explained the importance of a young woman not looking for a boyfriend if what she really wants is a husband:

The difference between looking for a boyfriend and looking for a husband changes her original search criteria toward players.

This is true; if a woman is looking for a boyfriend, she will tend to be looking for a man who makes her tingle (feel sexually aroused) with little regard for his character and intentions.  If you are a young woman who is serious about marriage, you should be looking for a husband – not a boyfriend – as this will orient your search criteria away from players.   However, even a woman who is looking for a husband may be unclear on what characteristics and behaviors she should be avoiding in a man.

Young women who are committed to pre-marital chastity and are serious about marriage should learn to discern between players who will actively seek to seduce them and other men who are making the effort not to entice her into sin. Players work hard to get around a woman’s anti-slut defenses and last-minute resistance; a non-player will be looking for ways to help you make sure the two of you don’t get into an overly-tempting situation.

The reason to avoid players, if you are a marriage-minded young woman, is because they are not interested in marriage.  They are interested in uncommitted sexual relationships, something they often euphemistically call “dating,” and one night stands (ONSs).  Players will often strike you as intelligent, witty, and charming.  They will be the most agreeable of men, but you must understand that they have many little tricks which they will use to seduce you.  Many players laugh about how the young women they seduce so often say things like:

I don’t know how it happened.  I usually don’t do this!

You may not know how it happened, but he sure does.  If you don’t want to be played, you need to avoid players.  Instead, look for a man who is himself looking for a wife and not a girlfriend.

One thing that may help with avoiding players is avoiding places where players commonly go to look for women.

1. Don’t hang out in bars and night clubs.

2. Avoid the typical destinations for Spring Break, where players and promiscuous women are likely to congregate.

3. For college-aged women, attending fraternity or similar house parties may be unwise because of the heavy alcohol usage and hook-up culture.  Use your judgment.

However, just avoiding these places will not guarantee that you will not encounter a player.  They are not sparkly vampires who only come out at night, and you well may bump into such men in the grocery store, at the coffee shop, and at church, where they will most certainly be keeping an eye out for you.  Players usually come across as extroverted, friendly, and socially-confident and will approach you to establish rapport even if they do not know you.  This is referred to as “cold opening” a woman.

Of course, not every man who speaks to you is a player, and most players will not come right out and announce that they are after uncommitted sex.  If you are going to avoid players successfully, you need to know how to spot them.

Spotting players

Zippy agreed with Dalrock that just looking for a husband rather than a boyfriend will weed out the players:

Dalrock is fond of suggesting…that if a woman isn’t looking for casual sex, she doesn’t really need to know how to spot a player.  It is an excellent point worth repeating — something for women to keep in mind more than men, really.

Unfortunately, this is not quite true.  There are a few players who have publicly said they try to be honest about what they are after, but there are others who admit that they lie about their true intentions.  Because some players have no problem lying about what they are after, a young woman needs to be able to spot them.

Spotting a player, that is, a man who seeks to sleep with you without commitment, can range from the ridiculously easy to the frustratingly difficult. Unfortunately, there is no single piece of advice that, once received, will alert you that a man is unquestionably a player. Venturing forth in this sinful world will require a constant watchfulness and awareness of your surroundings. Before getting to specific indicators that a man might be a player, it is important to understand that there are two general “categories” of players.

The first is the so-called “natural” player; this is a man who is self-taught.  He developed his craft (the art of seduction) through nothing but force of personality and trial and error. The natural’s abundant personal experiences with women have left him intimately familiar with the fairer sex.

The second type goes by many different names, but perhaps the most familiar is “Pick-Up Artist”, or “PUA”. This man has studied how to seduce women, using a variety of available resources such as books, the internet, seminars and even multi-day “boot camps”. Some learn everything through these resources, while others use them to buttress their existing knowledge and experience. In the latter case this experience, and the skill they have acquired, is far less extensive than the “natural” player.

It should be noted that these aren’t “neat” categories. Some naturals will study what the PUAs teach, and some PUAs will develop a lot of skill at seduction over time. As a general (though not universal) rule the PUA is more easily spotted than a natural, and is less of a threat.

Having gotten that out of the way, here are some possible indicators that a man is a player. Some of them are innocuous enough by themselves, but in combination with other signs should be taken as a sign of danger.

1)      He knows just what to say. A man who always knows the right thing to say, the right line to make you laugh or smile, is a man with an abundant amount of experience with women. A minor indicator by itself.

2)      He sexualizes the conversation immediately. This means that within the first minute of a conversation the man takes it into immediately obvious sexual territory. This doesn’t mean that he makes a direct proposition; rather he tries to get the conversation to center around sexual themes.  A major red flag.

3)      He gets a lot of female attention. Players, especially the good ones, can easily gain the attention of other women. A man with a constant swarm of women about him, especially attractive women, is benefitting from pre-selection (the tendency of women to find attractive those men who other women find attractive). Players know how to use this to their advantage.

4)      He wears funky clothing. There is a tactic practiced by some PUAs called Peacocking; it involves wearing strange and garish outfits in order to draw attention onto themselves. The attention and stares this behavior draws are its very goal, as they give the player a chance to distinguish himself from the crowd. This is a major red flag.

5)      He tries to isolate you. Skilled players know that the key to plying their craft is to isolate a woman from other people. This prevents other men from making a move, your friends from coming in to rescue you, or other women from otherwise interfering in a desire for the player themselves. Players understand how essential one-on-one conversation is to seduction. In its simple form this means trying to persuade you or guide you away from the crowd towards a quieter spot of whatever location you find yourself at. A more significant form is found in an invitation/suggestion to leave that location and go somewhere else. The latter is a huge red flag.

6)      He has a wingman or two. Skilled players will operate in pairs or small groups in order to aide their seduction efforts. A “wingman” can help keep other men away from you, distract friends and keep other interferences away from your conversation. Look to see if he has one or two buddies that arrived with him and are working in concert.

7)      He is skilled at keeping a conversation alive. Keeping a conversation going when the original subject matter is exhausted is a possible warning sign. A player understands that in order to seduce a woman, he needs to make her feel comfortable with him. Part of this involves a constant, amicable contact between the two of you. The longer he can hold your attention, the better.

8)      He breaks rapport with you and then reestablishes it quickly. One technique used by some players is to find some reason to break off a conversation at a high point. By leaving at a high-point, your last memory of him will be that positive moment. Then, after a short break, when he resumes the conversation he starts off from a strong position. If a player can do this several times- reach a high point and then break away, only to resume again, he can create a strong rapport with a woman.

9)      You find him really comforting after knowing him only a short while. By itself not a danger signal, but combined with other warning signs this probably indicates that a man is a player (likely a natural). Creating comfort is key to seduction, and if you find yourself comfortable around a strange man after a short while you should be on your guard.

10)  He constantly finds ways to touch you. Touching, also known as kino, is a prime method that players use to build attraction and comfort. They will often start with minor, seemingly innocuous touching at first, such as near the hands or feet. Then they will work their way up, towards the upper arm and leg, eventually moving to the face and torso. This constant touching is very effective, and a man who can get away with it makes for a very skilled player. Be on guard against this.

Resisting players

Guarding against being tempted by a player is a tricky business. Many of them have far more experience penetrating your defenses than you will have setting them up, as has previously been explained:

…the female brain might work in such a way that if a woman were to find herself in a position where she was under the influence of a man with a dominant, masculine frame, the rational part of her mind stops working properly. She can’t think straight. The only things running through her head are base instincts, with desire for the man being the most paramount. If the woman is isolated, away from friends and family or other sources of moral authority who might be able to constrain her behavior, then she might not be able to say “No” to the man if he presses her. She will eventually yield to him.
The important thing is that she might still be a “good woman”, or even a “good Christian woman.” She might believe that fornication is a sin, and that pre-marital sex is wrong, and that she should save herself for her husband. She might be wearing a promise ring, or whatever talisman supposedly will protect her virtue. But it doesn’t matter. Against such a man, without an external moral source, she cannot prevail.

Most importantly, he doesn’t have to force her. Just use the powerful lure of his dominant masculine frame [...] a woman simply cannot face the temptation of a Dominant Alpha Maleand resist his charms forever. If her goal is to resist temptation, to not give in, then she must escape, she must move through or past that temptation. In essence, she needs to get away from him. As long as he is nearby, and without other sources of moral authority to guide her, she is vulnerable. This is the central message of Jesus in Matthew 5:29, to remove from our presence those things which lead us to sin.

Most players will come across as masculine and dominant, so if you think you are going to be able to resist them just because you have identified them, think again.  You need to have a strategy.  Here are some quick tips:

1) Use the buddy system. Whenever possible, when in a location where players might be present, go with a friend or two. Then stick with one another at all times. Players need to get you alone with them in order to really pull off their seduction.  If they can’t get you alone, you have largely thwarted them. Remember, there is safety in numbers.

2) Don’t get isolated. While it might be ok to go a corner in a larger room, avoid leaving a crowded room for an empty one. Always have other people present, especially your friends.

3) Guard your phone number. Don’t give out your phone number to a man you’ve just met. Even better, don’t give it out until you have heard about the character of the guy from other, older women and from male friends and family. Same with e-mail.

4) Get a second opinion. In line with the previous bit of advice ask others about a man before agreeing to meet him in the future. Don’t ask your peers this, but instead older women and male friends and family.

5) Stick to public places. Until you have a better idea of a man’s character, only agree to meet him in a public place, like a café or a park. And make sure that the meeting is during the day or early evening. For early evening encounters, always set a hard time that you will need to leave by.

6) Never go to an unknown place with a man. If you aren’t familiar with a place, don’t go there with a man you hardly know.

7) NEVER GET DRUNK. EVER. Nothing has caused more women to lose their virginity or add another notch to the bedpost in the last few decades than alcohol. Drink to enjoy the taste and have a good time, but drink responsibly. Never get drunk, and when going out with friends, make sure one of you is the designated sober person.

8) Don’t drink at all in unsafe environments. If you do drink, make sure it is amongst friends or in a safe place. Basically, don’t drink when there are a lot of strange men around and few people to watch out for you.

9)  Wear modest and feminine clothing. Players prefer to target easy marks. So don’t appear to be one.  If you want to draw the attention of good men, and not players, wear clothing that good men would expect good women to wear.

10)  Maintain a healthy distance. Keep some space between you and men you don’t know well. This reduces the rate at which they build comfort, and makes it more difficult for them to “kino” you. Also, don’t let a man you’ve just met touch you anywhere other than the hands.  Reserve hugs for women and men you know.  And even if you’ve known a man for a while, in order to avoid the temptation to hook up with an acquaintance who happens to be a player, do not participate in even mild sexual contact, such as making out, with any man to whom you are not engaged.

Further reading:

Donal Graeme:

Sunshine Mary:

Cail Corishev

Scott and Mychal at The Courtship Pledge

Danny weighed in on this by explaining why he has chosen to be a player.  Young women might learn something from considering the incentives and disincentives to marriage men in our society face:

417 thoughts on “Avoiding, spotting, and resisting players: advice for young women.

  1. Farm Boy

    Given that the risk of divorce increases as a woman’s number of premarital sex partners increases, a wise young woman will not be sexually active before marriage.

    What if she views divorce as a positive act?

  2. Farm Boy

    but you must understand that they have many little tricks which they will use to seduce you.

    There you have it. Game works.

    [ssm: I never said it didn't. Ever once.]

  3. earl

    Although if you are a guy it is fun to play with player’s heads. Using their own tactics against them to reveal their true intentions is a great learning experience in and of itself.

    They got nothing to work with when it comes to women except sex.

    [ssm: Maybe, but let's just focus on educating young women who wish to avoid being played on how to do so while we continue to encourage young women to look for husbands while they are young and then to treat those husbands well for life.

    Not all women wish to avoid players. That is their choice to make, of course. The information in this post is only being presented for those young women who wish to stay chaste and marry young but have been brought up in a feminist society with parents who are ill-equipped to give their daughters useful advice about the modern SMP/MMP.]

  4. earl

    Now that being said…do most women care about a man more than just how well he works his genitals? Doesn’t seem like it for most of the population.

  5. Farm Boy

    I never said it didn’t. Ever once

    But there have always been lots of discussions. And you are the authoritah. At least on this blog.

  6. Chad

    Great post both of you.

    Something for women to keep in mind is that most of the ‘flags’ you have in the tip offs are aspects of a healthy masculinity overcompensated to an unhealthy degree of pride and vanity. The player wants to grab attention quickly, push for physical intimacy, will push/pull a show of emotional intimacy (key word show, the emotions run strong but shallow, flash in the pan style), and then go for the kill.

    But there’s nothing wrong with men having many women around him, if he also shows that he has many men around him of good character. Also the women will be of all ages, not merely ones young and physically attractive
    There’s nothing wrong with making a woman laugh or smile. But there’s also nothing wrong with making her angry or upset. It’s a man that goes out of his way to do either, and does so in rhythms, that should catch flags.
    What a woman perceives as a ‘wingman’ can really just be a male friend. The difference generally lies in whether they spend time together not paying attention to women, or if their eyes are always roaming for the next group they’ll talk to. Honestly, I’m not even sure I could spot the difference from outside reliably
    Keeping a conversation going is not reliable either. A good conversationalist is good to have, and there’s also the fact that many PUA’s realize the value of silence to make a woman uncomfortable, only to re-establish it themselves with something light or try and make her chase after him in the conversation.

    Most of those above could be considered the sign of a classic gentleman, in healthy doses, and it’s hard to spot the unhealthy over kill.

    The real sign will be isolation. Which you acknowledge in a round-about manner with majority of your “don’t do this” list being not to become isolated or alone. If a man refuses to meet you in an isolated area, he’s a marriage minded traditionalist that may or may not have courtship in mind. If he accepts isolated meetings, but doesn’t push for them himself, he might just be unacquainted with such temptations. But anyone, any man at all, that pushes for isolation in any situation is acknowledging that isolation allows intimacy.

    The only times I’ll push for isolation these days is when I’m trying to get a woman’s number, so as to avoid gossip or scandal no matter what her answer. After that I’ll bring her back into a room immediately. Even with this I’ve questioned if that’s the right move, but haven’t found an answer as of yet.

  7. Farm Boy

    do most women care about a man more than just how well he works his genitals?

    It s the tingles, man. The tingles.

    This comes long before the genitals come into play.

  8. earl

    “It s the tingles, man. The tingles.

    This comes long before the genitals come into play.”

    Keep in mind the brain is also a sexual organ.

  9. Farm Boy

    Don’t hang out in bars and night clubs

    Good advice to a fella looking for a wife and future mother of his children.

  10. Chad

    I should say that I don’t even push for isolation, but more ask a woman to follow my lead. The last time I ‘isolated’ a girl was at swing dancing when I said, “I need a drink of water, come join me.” and she did. It was in a church lobby between a gym and the bathrooms/water fountain. Not exactly isolated, but away from the ‘social area’ with people still passing through. At that point I could get her number without it being a scandal, but still in a place where both of us have to ‘mind our manners’ as it were.

    That’s a very different kind of ‘isolation’ than a pick up artist will strive for; which is to join him outside, change locations, or ‘lets go back to my place where I can show you the ______ I was talking about”

  11. Elspeth

    But there’s nothing wrong with men having many women around him, if he also shows that he has many men around him of good character. Also the women will be of all ages, not merely ones young and physically attractive
    There’s nothing wrong with making a woman laugh or smile. But there’s also nothing wrong with making her angry or upset. It’s a man that goes out of his way to do either, and does so in rhythms, that should catch flags.
    What a woman perceives as a ‘wingman’ can really just be a male friend. The difference generally lies in whether they spend time together not paying attention to women, or if their eyes are always roaming for the next group they’ll talk to. Honestly, I’m not even sure I could spot the difference from outside reliably
    Keeping a conversation going is not reliable either. A good conversationalist is good to have, and there’s also the fact that many PUA’s realize the value of silence to make a woman uncomfortable, only to re-establish it themselves with something light or try and make her chase after him in the conversation.

    I appreciated this comment, Chad. As i read the post I kept thinking, “Really? This necessarily makes a man a player?”

    [ssm: I believe Donal took that entire list from what PUAs themselves have written. These tips are the ones they sell to other men as techniques for picking up women. If these things are normal for men to do -and I'm not saying they are or are not -why do men need to go to PUAs to learn these things?]

    It’s almost as if any level of confidence that makes a girl find a guy particularly alluring means that he is a bad man. And that’s not always the case.

    [ssm: You would be okay with a man your daughter had just met isolating her, sexualizing the conversation, and putting his hands all over her? I wouldn't, and I also wouldn't call those things normal masculine confidence.]

  12. earl

    How men in the old days obtained sex was by building a business, painting masterpieces, building cathedrals, fighting wars, and basically doing activities in the world that displayed their passion. They were creative.

    Now all men have to do is say the right thing, isolate, and then do the deed. That’s basically it. Only enough creativity to get in. But if you can get it by doing the least amount of effort and she’s helping you because she needs her dick for the night and her daddy didn’t love her enough…go ahead.

  13. Farm Boy

    It’s almost as if any level of confidence that makes a girl find a guy particularly alluring means that he is a bad man. And that’s not always the case.

    This ambiguity is brought to you by feminism.

  14. Farm Boy

    Now all men have to do is say the right thing, isolate, and then do the deed.

    Kinda pathetic, isn’t it.

  15. earl

    It is pathetic…but I’m glad Mary is putting out stuff like this. The good ones out there need this info. They will have very little of this advice otherwise.

  16. Rollo Tomassi

    The ‘player identification checklist’ is very remedial and only highlights an ignorance of how PUArtistry has evolved. If you were looking for a means to counter the Mystery Method you read about in Neil Strauss’ The Game (published in 2003) you might have a basic outline, but Game has evolved in the last decade.

    Furthermore you’re still fighting feminine nature. For each point illustrated there’s always going to be a desire for a woman to want to believe a guy is genuine in his interest in her, especially so if her express purpose is to find a husband.

    1.) He knows just what to say. – What woman wants to marry a man who can’t articulate himself and his confidence well?

    2.) He sexualizes the conversation immediately. – While being overtly sexual out of context may be ill advised, a man who desexualizes himself is a Beta tell. Women would rather be objectified than idolized, and expressed sexual interest is a compliment to a woman’s attractiveness.

    3.) He gets a lot of female attention. – Preselection is king. The fact that a man for whom other women will compete is interested in a woman is flattering for her because it confirms her capacity to attract a man of his Alpha status. Women want a man who other men want to be and other women want to bang. Hypergamy demands optimization, what woman wants to marry a suboptimal man?

    4.) He wears funky clothing. – Your perception of Peacocking only illustrates an ignorance of the purpose of it. Everyone ‘peacocks’ (or thinks they are) to some degree. If your understanding of Peacocking is fuzzy hats, black nail polish and elevator boots – you’ve been reading The Game too long.

    5.) He tries to isolate you. – It all depends on context. A traditional date is technically ‘isolation’ with the intent of seduction or persuasion with the purpose of becoming more intimate.

    6.) He has a wingman or two. – Again, context. If an attractive guy is accompanied by his two best friends after church youth group is over, they’re not wingman, he’s just well liked and it’s further social proof of it.

    7.) He is skilled at keeping a conversation alive. – See #1. A good conversationalist gets you to talk about yourself.

    8.) He breaks rapport with you and then reestablishes it quickly. – Push-pull isn’t just a PUA technique, it’s part of being a good conversationalist, and being good (and convincing) at expressing ideas is a sign of social intelligence.

    9.) You find him really comforting after knowing him only a short while. – Comfort may be a seduction technique, but it’s also a key ingredient to a loving relationship. We can presume a woman looking for a husband will want to be comfortable with him, yes?

    10.) He constantly finds ways to touch you. – Human beings lives are generally so devoid of human touch it’s really no shock that Kino is such an effective seduction technique:
    http://therationalmale.com/2011/12/09/the-mechanics-of-kino/
    Again context is key. What woman wants to marry a man so intimidated by her that he wont initiate touch?

    If all of these instances happen within a 5-8 hour period after a woman meets a guy at a hip downtown club, the guy is a Player. If all of these instances happen within a span of two weeks and 3 dates is he still a Player or is he ideal Husband material?

    Context is all.

  17. earl

    The sad part for me is…when I do it I see how easy it is for a woman to succumb to it. You can give all the advice you want…but when she is in that experience, unless she has a loud conscious. logic can go out the window.

  18. Chad

    @ Eslpeth and SSM

    I’m glad it helped

    If a woman is marriage minded and Christian, the biggest way to tell the difference between player shows of confidence and what I’ve continued to call Godly Masculinity is how he treats people whom he isn’t attracted to. If he makes young women laugh, does he make older women laugh? If he is popular with young women, is he popular with young men or older men? Specifically those that are OUTSIDE of his age range. If he concerns himself with both the family father’s of the church as well as the children outside playing games, you can rest assured that it is confidence and masculinity.

    Of course, that confidence, masculinity, and Godliness DOES NOT mean he won’t be the type of man that will push for sex or inappropriate intimacy. It very well could be that sins of the flesh are his sin of choice, but that he has Godly strengths in other areas.

    All that is why I harp on isolation and intimacy so much – because they go hand in hand. Even the uneducated man subconsciously knows this when he asks a woman to join him for a breath of fresh air. Doing so might allow a man to do all sorts of things, and agreeing to it should only be done if the woman trusts the man completely.

    Coffee shops, museums, and other ‘public’ areas are much safer for men and women both if they’re marriage minded. Even then I’ve had times where I almost kissed women and escalated inappropriately. No one’s perfect, and we all have to keep that in mind.

  19. sunshinemary Post author

    Furthermore you’re still fighting feminine nature.

    Also known as “teaching girls the importance of self-control.”

    1 Corinthians 10:13

    No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

    Proverbs 25:28

    A man without self-control is like a city broken into and left without walls.

    Galatians 5:22-23

    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

  20. Ton

    This whole victim mentality is bull$hit, but let’s go with it for the now

    [ssm: No one called anyone a victim. We are trying to help young women make wise choices with their eyes wide open, that's all. We ought not to allow them to remain ignorant of these dynamics.]

    Women are going to continue to seek out men who are good with chicks as long a as they run their own dating lives/ search for a husband/ whatever we want to call it.

    [ssm: You and I are in agreement that they ought not to run their own dating lives. Presently they have no one stepping in to help them, though, so they are on their own. They might as well have some understanding of reality to guide them.]

    As for the advice, the never being a lone part is the only real key needed.

  21. Elspeth

    ssm: You would be okay with a man your daughter had just met isolating her, sexualizing the conversation, and putting his hands all over her? I wouldn’t, and I also wouldn’t call those things normal masculine confidence.

    No, I would not. This is why I made a point of highlighting the things Chad highlighted. Most of this stuff is clearly inappropriate behavior. I’m not in disagreement with all of the post, but I do think some of the things mentioned are much more subjective that you and Donal allowed for.

  22. sunshinemary Post author

    The ‘player identification checklist’ is very remedial and only highlights an ignorance of how PUArtistry has evolved. If you were looking for a means to counter the Mystery Method you read about in Neil Strauss’ The Game (published in 2003) you might have a basic outline, but Game has evolved in the last decade.

    Thank you for the feedback, Rollo. It’s true that Donal and I aren’t game experts, but I think that you are. Could you help us by pointing out some things a young woman who is committed to chastity and finding a husband should look out for in order to avoid being inadvertently played?

    After all, you don’t oppose girls learning to resist players and to behave like wife-material, rather than sluts, correct?

  23. earl

    When I was back in my youth…I never knew the whole isolation thing. However the times I did it with girls, it was like the sex swtich flipped in their head. I think isolation is more of a bug for them than men. The guys who went through enough trial and error just figured that out.

    So now I keep it in public places….so that I stay the predator instead of becoming the prey when we are isolated.

  24. Elspeth

    Specifically numbers 1, 3, 6, 7, and 9 of the first part were highly subjective in my opinion. Some of it is things am man has no control over (such as women liking him) and others are things he shouldn’t have to avoid like being engaging and having friends without them being “wingmen”.

    [ssm: this is what Donal wrote about the wingmen:

    Look to see if he has one or two buddies that arrived with him and are working in concert.

    So are you saying she shouldn't check out the friends of the young man to see what they are doing? Wingmen do a specific, observable job; they keep other people away from the player and the girl. A man who isn't a player has friends, of course, but they aren't trying to keep other people away from her.]

    The advice to the young women? Spot on and I have no quibbles.

  25. Janelle

    Women aren’t rational AND things are always their fault.

    Men are always rational AND they can be tricked easily by silly women.

    Contradictions, no?

  26. laidnyc

    The big, but unpleasant one:

    Know your league. Very good looking, very popular guys commit to very beautiful women, and usually leave a smattering of cute to plain to drunken mistake women in their rearview.

    Modesty and humility does a woman good and it begins at the bathroom mirror.

    [ssm: Excellent advice.]

  27. Janelle

    “. . .a young woman who is committed to chastity and finding a husband ”

    Christian women are not hunting for husbands, they are waiting on God’s perfect timing. You have it all wrong.

  28. Farm Boy

    This might only work on rational women, but teaching them about their attraction triggers; and how these in the modern world do not necessarily correlate to the best traits in a prospective husband.

    It is asking much, I know.

  29. earl

    @Mary

    1) Never let yourself become isolated.

    That would probably take care of most of it. If someone else’s eyes are on the woman…she isn’t going to unleash the other version she has.

    [ssm: That seems like good advice. Really, young woman being alone with any young man whom she finds attractive is not behaving wisely.]

  30. Farm Boy

    Modesty and humility does a woman good

    Indeed it does.

    It does a guy good also. Unfortunatly, chicks don’t dig it.

  31. Chad

    “So now I keep it in public places….so that I stay the predator instead of becoming the prey when we are isolated.”

    Interesting. I’ve never felt that way. Whenever I isolate it is more…. a removing of background noise. Intentions become loud and clear, where before they may have been drowned out by societal expectations of intentions, in that you had to work harder to make your intentions apparent.

    And in this manner I mean isolate in a sense of even a public area like a coffee shop. It allows a verbal dance like no one’s watching. Of course, women love a man who can do that in public and in a group even more than one that does it only in private. Emotional temptations can happen anywhere.

    Maybe that would be my other advice, outside of isolation:

    Be wary of men that act like no one’s watching.

    They have no regard for your reputation, which is one of the only things besides a woman’s virginity, relationship with God, and Feminine personality, that she has control over. In fact, you could easily say that her reputation is the social expression of the other three. There’s a reason God and Christ speak harshly against gossip and scandal.

  32. earl

    “Interesting. I’ve never felt that way. ”

    @Chad…

    Have you ever been isolated with a woman to the point you are in your place or her place, alone? That’s what I’m talking about. A switch flips and if you are a guy she is looking to make a meal out of you.

    Some guys set it up that way…I was just too dumb to realize the background mating dance that was occuring. It was like a complete flip of her personality.

  33. Elspeth

    Modesty and humility does a woman good and it begins at the bathroom mirror.

    This is true.

    Also, most of this can be handled by young women heeding Earl’s admonition and not being alone with any young man she’s not related to. And especially if she’s attracted to him.

    In this day and age of dating as the norm, most young people will find it taxing to try and court without allowance for the typical “date” where he picks her up and they go out for dinner and a movie.

    Young women should drive themselves to public meeting places for any dates.

  34. Chad

    @ Earl

    To clarify my other statement about intentions:

    I’ve never seen intentions of a woman shift between non-isolated places and isolated places. Both when I was an unconverted hedonist and now as a traditional Catholic who practices courtship.

    In the same way, neither did my intentions shift in those situations.

    The intentions were always there. They simply were expressed differently or to different degrees. If a woman wants to friendzone you, she’ll friendzone you in public and in private. It occurs and displays itself in drastically different ways in each situation, but it is the same intention. If a woman wants commitment, she’ll show a want for commitment in all situations. In private, that display and intention for commitment might fall prey to the temptations of Lust and the Flesh, but the -intention- is the same. A woman that wants sexual relations with you will display that in her manners and actions in a social setting and outside of it. The only change will be due to how much she regards her social status and reputation as something that will be adversely affected by coming on to you strongly.

    I haven’t seen any difference with this rule of intentions between a girl in a club or a girl attending a Catholic Latin Mass.

  35. Cicero

    Ah yes walking the proverbial tightrope of getting her interested in you yet not have her jump you.
    “Be the Alpha that she wants and needs but beat her of with a stick if she looses control, but for the love of all that is green in Ireland don’t you dare show her any signs of beta.”
    And here is a question: What on earth is a Christian girl (in a group or alone) doing at a night club or bar without a male chaperone?

    [ssm: Indeed, that is why we advised them to avoid hanging out in bars and nightclubs.]

  36. Chad

    @ Earl

    Ah ok, you mean a change how she displays her intentions, not the intentions themselves.

    Now that I would agree with you on.

    I will say, with my above comment, that a greater amount of women that -do- attend a traditional Catholic Mass have better intentions. Certainly no where near the majority of them though. And even with that….

    They’ll still fall.

  37. sunshinemary Post author

    I’ve got to run now, but before I go let me say that Donal and I consider this post a jumping off point for the discussion. We probably don’t have all the information here that is needed, and some of what we’ve come up with may be off base. But we really wanted to get the ball rolling on helping young women who want to do the right thing, to stay chaste and marry young, and they really need more information than what they are currently getting. So we appreciate the clarifications and additional points that everyone is raising. Hopefully this will be a fruitful discussion.

    And I really appreciate people like Rollo, who knows game well, and LNYC, who actually is a player, adding input. They have information that I simply have no concept of.

  38. donalgraeme

    Reblogged this on Donal Graeme and commented:
    Sunshine Mary and I collaborated on a blog titled “Avoiding, spotting and resisting players: Advice for young women. I think we’ve provided some good, starter advice for young women, at least, those who hope to avoid cads and players.

    Something which didn’t make it into the post was a bit of snark on my end. I originally had a few lines in that made the point that if a woman isn’t sure if a man is a player, she should ask herself if she finds him attractive. If the answer is yes, then the odds are that he is a player. The reason for that snark is of course due to the fact that there are relatively few “Righteous Alphas” (a borrowed term) out there. Those men who are “good men” unfortunately also tend to be “nice men”, which consequently means they are unattractive. Leaving, of course, the field of attractive men to the players and cads. While more true than not these days, it is my hope that what Deep Strength, Chad and I are doing lately might be a move towards correcting that.

  39. earl

    Yeah when other people’s eyes on her…she’s more reserved, sweet, careful in what she does. You can see that she still desires you.

    When the eyes aren’t there…the guardrails come off.

    Now I try to entice desire through public settings. The eyes and tone of voice is enough. That way to people on the outside you are having a simple conversation and yet she is able to read between the lines.

    I make it to where I want her to think that I could have my way with her. She’ll have to committ to me if she wants to find out.

  40. Amanda

    I think the suggestions are good ones, generally. Of course a few of them could be subjective, but it’s good to be discerning and to approach seeking a spouse with eyes wide open.

    As a shortened version, for Christians, if a young man is pushing for any kind of sexual activity before marriage, probably not a good choice. Same for guys. If a young women is dressed like she’s advertising, she probably is. Or if she tries to be tempting or overtly sexy, red flag. I would differentiate this from the sweet flirting of “hey I like you.” Overt touching, sexual conversation, sexy dress, etc. are all red flags. Christian men shouldn’t be pressuring for sex before marriage, and Christian women shouldn’t be advertising and being temptresses.

    I also agree with laidinNY in that, for women, if a guy is really handsome and confident, and you know you are just a cute girl next door, red flag. Don’t know if this works the same for men, though. I guess it might in that an average guy who is wealthy probably has to be concerned about gold diggers.

  41. Elspeth

    So are you saying she shouldn’t check out the friends of the young man to see what they are doing?

    Oh, I see now. You are talking specifically about PUA’s? LOL. Apologies Sunshine for not *getting* it.

    What the heck is a girl who is interested in marriage and chastity doing in a setting like where packs of men are looking for prey? I can’t imagine that this kind of thing would be occurring in any other setting than one where a woman is already vulnerable to such a thing and a wise woman shouldn’t put herself in the situation to begin with.

    Do PUA’s frequent Starbucks or Barnes and Noble in groups looking for an easy score? Or church? I was picturing something completely different.

    Carry on.

    [ssm: Elspeth, did you click on the links I provided for those spots? Roosh gives detailed information about how to pick up a girl in a coffee shop who is just sitting there drinking her coffee and reading. PMAFT goes to church in order to try to pick up girls there. Many of these girls probably want to be picked up, but there are some who are simply naive and don't understand the game. Our advice is for girls who don't understand the game and who don't want to inadvertently end up getting played.]

  42. Elspeth

    I originally had a few lines in that made the point that if a woman isn’t sure if a man is a player, she should ask herself if she finds him attractive. If the answer is yes, then the odds are that he is a player.

    Oh, wow.

  43. Ton

    Actually Earl you do not have to do any of that stuff to get women. You only have to be overtly and unapologetically masculine with a decent sense of humor. And isolate.

    If you don’t want to convey the women are victims meme darling, you might want to look to your verbiage.

    Wingman is for rookies.

    I always flirt with the oldest lady in the room 1st. Next is kids if it’s that kind of event, then talk with men, then women last so I’m not sure how helpful that is. Not saying it wrong but…. Yea Rollo said it. Y’all are talking about rookies best I can tell.

  44. Virtue

    Curses! Foiled again! Drat you Sunshine! Drat you!

    [ssm: Yes, all sluts lacked was knowledge, it turns out. Now that they have it, this post has effectively ended the possibility of fornication for all time. :) ]

  45. Farm Boy

    I always flirt with the oldest lady in the room 1st. Next is kids if it’s that kind of event, then talk with men, then women last

    A type of pre-selection

  46. earl

    “Actually Earl you do not have to do any of that stuff to get women. You only have to be overtly and unapologetically masculine with a decent sense of humor. And isolate. ”

    Yeah we all have different strategies for the same battle.

    Most guys only have a bb gun they are firing with, though. It’s no wonder the players are having a field day and don’t want feminism to go away. They are the only ones packing legit guns these days.

  47. Rollo Tomassi

    Could you help us by pointing out something’s a young woman who is committed to chastity and finding a husband should look put for in order to avoid being inadvertently played.

    After all, you don’t oppose girls learning to resist players and to behave like wife-material, rather than sluts, correct?

    While I don’t share such an absolutist definition of wife-material vs. slut, I’ll take a stab at it:

    As I stated, context is all.

    A capacity to discern motives (your specialty I believe?) within that context takes experience and wisdom. The characteristics that make a Player attractive are the same characteristics that make for an ideal(ized) husband. It’s just the context that it occurs in is different.

    That context varies from environments, to social groups, to the phase of life a man and woman find themselves in. Imagine a marriage-minded woman meeting a man with these characteristics, in his peak SMV years (34-38), at a charity event, amongst two of his male colleagues and being given obvious IOIs from various women.

    Now imagine she meets a 25 y.o. guy, with the same characteristics, well liked, exudes confidence, identical circumstances, in a trendy club on a Saturday night.

    Both exhibit the behaviors outlined on the ‘checklist’ over the course of 2 dates after a week and a half of knowing your marriage-minded, chaste, daughter.

    Which one is the Player, which is her future husband?

    [ssm: Thank you for your input, Rollo.

    "A capacity to discern motives (your specialty I believe?) within that context takes experience and wisdom."

    Yes, that is normally quite true, but in this particular situation, what we don't really want the girl to have is experience. Every 30 year-old carouseler, if she's honest with herself, has the experience to spot players because she's had enough experience with them. But somehow, a girl who has no experience has to be able to suss their motives. That's tough for a naive young lady to do, especially given that most players are in fact very charming.]

  48. Guern

    Verse 12 is gold. All the days of her life mean since she was born. Not ‘now’ that I got off the carousel….

    Young women who are believers need to put this (and the rest of scripture) into their hearts and DO it… Not just mental ascent…

    (And yes I need to get a posting ID)

    Proverbs 31:10 Who can find a virtuous wife?
    For her worth is far above rubies.
    11 The heart of her husband safely trusts her;
    So he will have no lack of gain.
    12 She does him good and not evil
    All the days of her life.

  49. donalgraeme

    I haven’t had time to read all the comments, and won’t for a bit, but here is something I have noticed people already missing:

    Some of them are innocuous enough by themselves, but in combination with other signs should be taken as a sign of danger.

    Many of these signs are perfectly fine in isolation, but you get enough of them together…

  50. Michelle

    Wow. After reading this post I vividly remember an experience I had riding the city bus, I was 17 and a –man employed many of these tactics on me. I was dating the man who is now my husband at the time, and I repeatedly referred to my boyfriend during the conversation. I also refused to give him my phone number more than once. By the end of the 40 minute trip, I let him put his arm around me AND I gave him my phone number. Thankfully he never called me, but I always wondered what had come over me! I fully intended to withhold my phone number, and never imagined that I would end that bus ride snuggled up with some stranger. I can’t believe there is a list of the things he did. My daughters are going to have to read this when they’re old enough.

    Another time on the same bus route, a man plopped himself down next to me and said, “Show me your t*ts”. I didn’t know it at the time, but he was probably less dangerous than the man I gave my number to. After a few more of these experiences I stopped riding the bus altogether and walked everywhere, even in the rain. I still don’t make eye contact with strange men unless there is a reason. It’s important for a girl to be polite, but at some point, you have to take precautions. Of course nowadays I’m usually covered in children, so I’m pretty safe. 

    For both men and women, isolation with the opposite sex should be avoided after marriage too. I read somewhere that the greatest indicator of infidelity is opportunity.

    “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?”-Jer. 17:9

  51. Cicero

    @ Amanda and laidinNY

    Does that mean that an attractive and confident guy who is surrounded by beautiful women should be ignored then by a Christian girl? That seems prejudice against the good looking and confident guy (who might be a devoted Christian) don’t you think? And here I was under the impression that Christian women would want an attractive and confident Christian man. The hamster never ceases to amaze.

  52. deti

    If a woman wants to avoid getting played by a player, she need follow only one rule:

    1. KEEP HER LEGS SHUT.

    “yeah but he’s so attractive!”

    Yes, he is. See rule number 1.

    “Yeah but he’s so nice!”

    Yes, he is. See rule number 1.

    “He’s a good guy. He’d never do anything like that to me.”

    Yes,he is, and yes, he would. See rule number 1.

    “It’s different this time. He’s different. I’m different.”

    No, it’s not. No, he’s not. No, you’re not. See rule number 1.

    [ssm: In other words, girls, Deti's advice to you is this: Just get it.]

  53. Elspeth

    The point here Deti is to help young women avoid getting to the point where they have to overcome the temptation to open their legs in the first place.

    Whatever I may have misunderstood here (and it seems I’m clueless about plenty), I at least figured out that much.

    [ssm: Ah, but you figured it out because you didn't come in deliberately trying to misunderstand. Sadly, the same cannot be said of everyone. ;) ]

  54. deti

    “He wants to get married. He’s gonna marry me. It’s Twue Wuv.”

    He does? He will? Do you have a ring? Do you have a date set? No, it’s not. No such thing. See Rule number 1.

    “He told me he loves me.”

    Of course he did. And you love him too. See Rule number 1.

  55. FuzzieWuzzie

    About nightclubs, Aaron Clarey, aka Captain Capitalism, had a video on his youtube channel “Death of the Nightclub”. He’s from Minneapolis, so his advice is likely sound nationwide. The quick and dirty take on the fourteen minute video is that guys should stay out of clubs if they’re looking to meet girls. End of story and that includes players.

  56. FuzzieWuzzie

    Another question, how many gals out there are actually looking for a husband? It seems that most are looking for a boyfriend and, if things go well, hoping to upgrade to marriage.
    Ladies, if you are looking for a husband, a whole new strategy is called for.\

    [ssm: Yes, that's correct. Many are not looking for husbands, but for those who are, I hope this post will give them some useful information, or at least point them in the direction of useful information.]

  57. Amanda

    Cicero

    No, not ignored by the Christian girl of the same SMV. The good looking, confident Christian guy that all the girls swoon over is *likely* looking to marry the hottest Christian girl he can. I’m just saying if a Christian girl is aware that a guy seems interested, but is obviously out of her league, to be wary. Doesn’t mean he’s a bad guy or anything. Of course YMMV.

    When I was 18, the super good-looking, confident guy in our youth group, the one all the girls secretly had a crush on, asked me out on a date. At that time I was smart enough to at least ponder, “hmm, what’s this about,” because even though I was very cute and sweet in my own right, he was clearly above me in SMV. I went, but we really didn’t have much in common, and nothing came of it. He’s married to some semi-known gospel singer today. TBH I’m still not sure why he asked me out — I don’t believe I would have been enough for him.

  58. Ton

    I pull more girls from Starbucks, lines at the movie theater etc all then I ever did night clubs.

    Not being alone is probably all that is required but folks like to make things difficult

    Pre selection? No I am not that complex. The old gals actually know how to flirt back, it’s a small thing that brings a lot of smiles and I enjoy their company ( old folks in general)

    Not sure how much feminism has to do with it Earl as the type of masculinity I push is a far cry from the PUA kind.

  59. lauratheringmistress

    I think the advice about isolation and phone numbers are both very good. If a girl has legitimate reasons for remaining in contact with a man with whom she had relatively little acquaintance, an email account expressly for business would suffice. This allows her to keep in touch with class projects, possible charitable activities, etc. without giving out personal information. And by being in the non-personal inbox, she can keep straight who these people are.

    For example, I occasionally dabble with a direct marketing business. I keep an email account expressly for that business, as well as an account for my blog. If I give away any contact info at all, I give out business related emails. What works at protecting a married woman from unwanted attention world also help keep a marriage minded girl from harassing texts.

    And for guys worried that such tactics would prevent a man from ever getting to know her better, the point is to keep a relationship friendly until there’s an opportunity to know character and intentions.

    [ssm: Excellent point.]

    The other point about isolation is a good one. This is probably where my social awkwardness saved me endless trouble. I only had two dates in high school. One was a dance which I left early because the music was making me ill. My date tried to suggest going someplace else but I asked to go directly home. Since I had no interest in him (a point which the dance had confirmed), I certainly didn’t want to be isolated with him! The other date was prom. I had asked a guy from another school (we met on a retreat). We met later at his house that summer to watch a movie, but with no clear relationship, his mild attempts to escalate went nowhere. Basically, I didn’t realize that people would attempt that without a formal declaration of love and a known status of “boyfriend”. And this was someone I actually had mild interest in. Suffice it to say a more public meeting would have been far less awkward. In the first case, my good instincts saved me from a boy who was far more aggressive than I could have handled, and in the second my naivete both got me into and out of an awkward situation. But these rules could have spared me a good deal of confusion.

  60. Elspeth

    how many gals out there are actually looking for a husband?

    And are not older than 28?

    I think the younger girls are in a different frame of mind, Farm Boy. My daughter has met quite a few very young wives this past 2 semesters, (under 22 or 23 and married although they are delaying children).

    And she is totally open to meeting a potential husband (not a boyfriend) at this point.

    When I was 18, the super good-looking, confident guy in our youth group, the one all the girls secretly had a crush on, asked me out on a date. At that time I was smart enough to at least ponder, “hmm, what’s this about,” because even though I was very cute and sweet in my own right, he was clearly above me in SMV.

    When my husband (who was also popular and handsome) approached me I though the exact same thing, Amanda. I turned him down and he went on about his life, dating whomever he was dating from one quarter to the next. I was aware of it, too. Eventually I went out with him and the rest as they say, is history.

  61. Rollo Tomassi

    Do PUA’s frequent Starbucks or Barnes and Noble in groups looking for an easy score? Or church? I was picturing something completely different.

    Again, context. Depends on the PUA and what works best / reliably for him. Easy score? Probably not. SNL (same night lay)? Unlikely, but generating a leads to a future lay? Definitely.

    And FWIW, Panera Bread around lunchtime is probably a better venue than either you mentioned. That place teems with ‘available’ women.

    [ssm: Young Christian women, listen to me. Stay out of Panera Bread. Not because you are likely to get picked up there, but because their food is loaded with simple carbs and is very high in calories, even their salads. Girls, you do not need those calories!]

    For a more contemporary grasp of PUA or Game in practice (as opposed to my Game mechanics), Nick Krauser is IMO the best place to get a more updated idea of how Game has evolved.

    [ssm: Thank you for the info.]

    Watch this:

    Then read:
    http://therationalmale.com/2012/09/06/women-studies/

  62. Cicero

    @Amanda,
    Yeah the whole SMV thing and Christianity don’t quite go together to that level me thinks. An attractive and confident Christian man looks at other things in a woman and sees other things than other men can’t see. Because he looks and sees with other eyes and beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

  63. feministhater

    Ah, don’t drink, don’t go to dodgy places, remain with male family members and NO SEX BEFORE MARRIAGE.

    I’ve come to the realisation that most women want to be seduced by players. It’s easy to not be taken by a player. No sex equals no ability to seduce the women. If a woman does not want to be seduced by a player, she can simply leave. I think you’re missing a fundamental point, SSM, that women choose to be seduced.

    [ssm: No, I am not missing that at all and actually said that in the OP. Once again, everyone seems to be misunderstanding that this post (as was directly stated) is targeted at young women who want to stay chaste and marry young. These women don't want to be seduced by players and could use some help in figuring out how not to accidentally end up in one of their beds.]

  64. Amanda

    See Cicero, in Elspeth’s case, she was a little skittish of her husband’s initial interest, but it all worked out for them, so ymmv.

  65. Rollo Tomassi

    I think you’re missing a fundamental point, SSM, that women choose to be seduced.

    This is the most fundamental point of The Art of Seduction by Robert Greene – seduction never takes place without a willing participant.

    I’m once again amazed that Christians ever manage to breed at all. Without seduction, by order of degrees, and within context, marriages don’t happen. Whether that seduction happens in a nightclub or away at church camp, without seduction there is no intimacy.

  66. Cicero

    Seduce; lure or entice away from duty, principles, or proper conduct.
    @ feministhater; Yep seems like it is a free choice issue. So to be seduced or not be seduced? That is the female question.

  67. seriouslypleasedropit

    So, while I definitely respect Donal and SSM, this list seems…off. I’m imagining reading it to my little sister, and I don’t think I could do it and mean it.

    Story time: In college, I took a girl out a few times. As I was the only one leaving for summer, my friends decided to throw a going-away party for me. I invited this girl, we all went out, hijinks, etc.

    So as we’re leaving the restaurant, and she mentions that she’s leaving the next morning too, and wouldn’t it be nice if some gentleman would help her pack.

    Yadda yadda, we end up on her couch, making out.

    Now, I was certainly not guiltless in this situation. But I did not go into this with any kind of player mindset. She actually had to hint fairly strongly to get me to stop packing stuff.

    Looking at this list, I would have come off as:

    1. Did not know just what to say

    2. Definitely didn’t sexualize the conversation

    3. Didn’t get a lot of female attention (I guess that night I kind of was, party for me, etc. But this was something my friends planned, not me)

    4. I wasn’t dressed to stand out.

    5. She tried to isolate me

    6. I had no wingman—except, I guess, all my friends, but they were just there to party.

    7. I’m not a terrible conversationalist.

    8. I didn’t break rapport.

    9. She did find me comforting, because, well, I’m a nice guy.

    And yet despite my “innocence” on this list, things escalated. And they could have gone further.

    My point is: every guy is a risk in the wrong situation. Dudes face temptation too. All guys have an inner player, just like all girls have an inner slut.

    Further, in other situations, some of these are good traits you should look for in a husband. Marry a good conversationalist. Marry a snappy dresser. Heck, marry someone who knows how to break rapport. Obviously virtues like chastity, honesty, faith, and charity are more important than all these, but don’t hold a sharp wit against a guy.

    Rather than trying to smoke out Schroedinger’s Player, the “quick tips” section is much more practical.

    The only thing I’d add is: pray and read Scripture every day. Have a good relationship with (both) your parents. Don’t stay up too late.

    [ssm Yes, girls all have an inner slut-wannabe, and I am sure you are correct that all men have an inner player-wannabe. And it can happen that a young couple inadvertently ends up escalating things sexually, but with players it is not inadvertent but rather on purpose, the entire goal of the interaction. We are hoping that looking through that list will at least give girls an idea of what to look out for from a man who is purposefully trying to get her into a situation that will be sexually tempting, assuming that she doesn't want to be in a tempting situation because she is trying to stay chaste and search for a husband.]

  68. Bryce Laliberte

    Excellent advice as always. Having a younger sister and desperately trying to educate her of the sexual pitfalls, the points of advice, which greatly overlap yours, are these:

    1) Do not ever let yourself be isolated with a man, especially one who hasn’t demonstrated willing chastity. Meet with them and enjoy their company one on one, but structure your time with them so that you are in public places and you are returning to the company of others at the end of the night. Sadly, many parents are not pro-active in guarding their daughters’ sexual purity, so the girl may need to get her parents on board with being more actively involved in protecting them.

    2) If you find yourself willing to compromise other promises or plans to spend time with a man, that is a warning sign about your own feelings. Be careful in taking stock of your feelings. If you’re blowing off your friends, parents, or work/school to spend time with him, you need to be concerned about what else you may be willing to compromise to continue enjoying his attention.

    3) It is imperative to have decided beforehand that you are not willing to go through with sexual activity. Do not presume yourself capable of navigating temptation; this is exactly what all those other “good Christian girls” thought as well. Avoiding temptation is as crucial as being able to deny temptation.

    Those are defensive strategies. It is also important for a girl to cultivate offensive strategies so minimize her being open to being approached by players. I’ve suggested these to my sister:

    1) Do you have friends who are boys? Though you probably haven’t considered it, likely many of them are attracted to you. Though you may not find yourself overwhelmingly attracted in turn, if you are truly interested in finding a husband, it is worth giving these boys a chance. You can’t tell them you’d like to try dating, but you can make yourself available and avoid penalizing them if they make an advance. You have no obligation to say “yes,” but likewise do not turn around and tell all your friends about how shocked you were at that icky boy thinking you might ever desire his attention in that way. Boys who otherwise have good intentions but lack the confidence that comes with sexual experience will avoid you, and these are the kinds of boys’ attentions you should desire. There is no harm in giving a boy whose company you find enjoyable a chance, only make plain you reserve the right to not go further after doing so. Likewise, if whenever you decide that you are not interested in any further contact, tell the boy in a straightforward and gracious manner.

    2) Consciously develop policies concerning your dating. Have a rule such as requiring two or three dates before you are willing to consider yourself more exclusively a particular boy’s attention. These policies are important to have because they help you gauge your own affinities, and much like the above in avoiding compromise, if you find yourself willing to compromise your rules you should consider stepping back. Likewise, understand that your being attracted to a boy doesn’t mean he’s a player; it may just be you who is the problem, not him. If you find yourself helplessly compromising your rules with a boy, cut things off for a period of time. If his intentions are good, he will respect the distance you desire and leave you alone.

    3) Do not tell the boy your policies. A boy who knows that you have certain conscious policies (e.g. you find yourself saying “I don’t do these sorts of things”) knows that he has you around his finger and a player will continue attempting to escalate. If you ever find yourself thinking or saying such a thing, remove yourself from the situation and put yourself in the company of others.

    4) Develop friendships with like-minded girls. You want your friends to be interested in protecting your chastity as well as you are interested in doing so. Friends who are themselves falling for temptation should be avoided, because they are less likely to be willing to pressure you to avoid temptation.

    5) If you are following this advice and a boy appears promising, it is alright to say you are “dating.” However, you should make it so that both your own and his parents are involved in your relationship, at least to the extent that they know what you are doing. Likewise, being able to tell a boy who approaches that you already have a boyfriend is a good defense; players are much more likely to push for further contact despite that knowledge, and those who do should be avoided.

    [ssm: Great advice, thank you for this.]

  69. earl

    “I’m once again amazed that Christians ever manage to breed at all.”

    Told by a guy who stated by choice only has one kid.

    I’d suggest you stop saying that quote.

    ssm: Indeed, Christians have a higher birth rate than secular people have. Catholics have the highest of the Christians. Mormons are even higher than Catholics.

    Source: Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life / U.S. Religious Landscape Survey, Number of Children by Religious Tradition

  70. Poder

    The best way to avoid players is by meeting men in your social circle and avoiding men you don’t know or your friends don’t know. This way you can get to know a man, or your friends can tell you of a man’s reputation. You also learn if he is a player or looking for a relationship.

    [ssm: Very, very good point.]

    The problem of the social circle strategy is that you actually have to have a social circle, which is a problem for shy people, and by not dating people you don’t know you pass up on a lot of good guys.

    Players can’t totally be avoided because women are attracted to charming, good conversationalists, who touch them and are sexually confident. It’s hard for women to be attracted and interested in men that don’t have some of these qualities. Not to mention that women love trying to tame a player.

    [ssm: Exactly. A girl has to make the conscious choice to avoid giving in to temptation. Unlike many people, I am not in the "game does not work" camp. I believe it probably works to some degree, at the very least in creating temptation. A girl needs to acknowledge that she is tempt-able and make the effort to avoid giving in to it if she is serious about wanting a husband and not being part of a player's harem. Christians need to admit this: it is probably fun, fun, fun being part of player's harem, for a little while. Girls who are serious about both their faith and family formation need to admit that it's a temptation, but one which they need to avoid.]

  71. Farm Boy

    And she is totally open to meeting a potential husband (not a boyfriend) at this point.

    Open, sure. How about actively seeking?

    “If Mr. Super stumbles into my arms, that is fine. But I will have fun in the interim.”

  72. deti

    “The point here Deti is to help young women avoid getting to the point where they have to overcome the temptation to open their legs in the first place.”

    If young women set their sights on finding one decent man to get married to; this wouldn’t be a problem.

    [ssm: "If young women set their sights on finding one decent man to get married to would just get it; this wouldn't be a problem." FIFY.]

    The problem is that women are putting off marriage; they don’t want to marry until they’re good and ready to. They have insanely stratospheric requirements for their husbands who have to be George Clooney with a bible. Their ideas of what marriage is supposed to be or what they expect it to be are inherently unreasonable and unrealistic, and don’t resemble at all what marriage actually is.

    [ssm: As has been pointed out eleventy-million times now, this post is aimed at girls who aren't putting off marriage. Do try to stay on topic, darling.]

  73. Farm Boy

    So to be seduced or not be seduced? That is the female question.

    Can the hamster weigh in on this also?

    Perhaps one should pen an addendum, “Controlling your hamster”

  74. Farm Boy

    Their ideas of what marriage is supposed to be or what they expect it to be are inherently unreasonable and unrealistic, and don’t resemble at all what marriage actually is.

    And they don’t want to make sammiches for their men. That is the deal breaker.

  75. Ton

    Farm Boy, my friend, you are the master of brevity, which is the soul of wit.

    Well since Rollo is not “allowed” to say it, I will. White Christians are going to be out breed and extinct in a few generations.

  76. Cicero

    @ Farm Boy:

    “Controlling your hamster.” You would have a better odds trying to herd cats.
    And come let us give the lady’s the benefit of the doubt.

  77. Ton

    Well the notion chicks do not want to marry is true, I reckon SSM is talking about young girls who do. Even then, everyday she is delays marriage is another day her virginity is at risk. Drag that out long enough and #1) they do give into their desire to be ravshed or #2) they get to the point where they cannot not friend zone a man.

    [ssm: Yes, sir. I agree with you.]

  78. lauratheringmistress

    The non-white world is catching up with white liberals on negative birthrate quite quickly. It has taken 10 years for some of the Middle East to get where it took France 50 to arrive. The whole world is heading for demographic winter, not just those of European stock.

    (And I have attended several churches where 6 is a normal median family size. Some of us Christians are breeding.)

  79. Theodore Logan

    how many gals out there are actually looking for a husband?

    And are not older than 24?
    fixed that for ya Farm Boy

    [ssm: Yes, by 22, she should be married or nearly so. I wasn't even a Christian or particularly wise, and I managed to do that. Modern girls are badly misled; they truly believe, or claim to believe, that men will find them more desirable when they are 30 and have built up a fab career. We must dispel this myth.]

  80. Jobba

    Wouldn’t it be better to have the women ask her father about the Men she wants to marry first? Men are not easily fooled by players.

    [ssm: I am a huge fan of girls remaining under their father's roof until they marry. Many of these problems would be dealt with simply by virtue of having her father watching out for her. But not all girls are fortunate to have an intact family, sadly.]

  81. Hipster Racist

    They say a slut is a woman with the morals of a man. A player is a man with the morals of a woman.

    If a woman wants to avoid players, it’s really, really simple. Don’t have sex until you’re married.

    There, problem solved. Anything else is just excusing women’s promiscuity.

    Women are not being “fooled” or “tricked” by players. Women have sex with players because they are horny and want to.

    Sincerely,

    A Player

  82. feministhater

    SSM, no woman who doesn’t want to be used can be used. The issue always boils down to either rape or willful choice to be seduced. The reason I always go back to ‘NO SEX BEFORE MARRIAGE’ is there is absolutely no attack from players that can bring down a woman’s defense if her defense is ‘no sex before marriage,’ none. Unless of course…. she wants to be seduced and her ‘defense’ was just a ‘shit test’.

    [ssm: I'm afraid I don't fully agree with you. People (men and women) can be tempted and end up doing something they later regret. The purpose of this post is to try to steer girls away from overly-tempting situations, which players are very good at creating. It's not wrong for a girl (or a guy) to admit that they have temptation triggers. We all have them, every one of us, and we would be fools to pretend otherwise. We should admit that we have them, understand what they are, and then take precautions against giving in to them.]

  83. Elspeth

    Open, sure. How about actively seeking?

    What does that mean exactly, “actively seeking?” Should she wear a t-shirt that reads “I AM ACTIVELY SEEKING A HUSBAND!”

    “If Mr. Super stumbles into my arms, that is fine.

    That was my strategy, actually. It’s a miracle that I managed to marry at all, frankly. She’s actually quite realistic and deliberate about what to look for in a man.

    “Fun in the interim”?

    Nope. Like her mother was, she is a very nose to the grindstone type and she is trusting that God will send her a husband. She has a close circle of friends that she sees when she’s not either in class, working, or helping me here. Not every young single woman is partying or on the carousel.

    She is “open”, but not on the hunt. And not dating for fun either.

  84. lovelyleblanc7

    Thanks SSM and Donalgraeme. This is all good advice. One thing I would recommend is for a young woman to always get her father’s advice. I ask my dad if my clothes are modest before I go outside and sometimes he might tell me to go and change. If my appearance isn’t modest, he will call it out. Before I went to college, I did all my clothes shopping with my parents so, I would have modest clothing. PUAs are lazy and will go for the easiest one. Appearance and how a young woman displays herself is key.

    It so important for young girls to have good father-daughter relationships because if any man will be a 100% honest to her, it will be her father. Fathers are men too and they know players. It also helps if she has an older brother, that way he is young enough to know men around her age so, he can advise her which ones to stay away from.

  85. deti

    ssm: In other words, girls, Deti’s advice to you is this: Just get it.

    Hah. Nice try, SSM, but no cigar. You’ve completely missed the point.

    I’m not telling women to “just get it” or “just figure it out for yourself”, unlike some misguided folks around these parts. There’s nothing to “just get” or “figure out” in my advice. It’s very simple. It’s so simple any woman with a sixth grade education and an IQ of 80 can understand and implement it.

    KEEP YOUR LEGS SHUT. Don’t have sex before marriage. Everything refers back to that one simple rule.

    But FEmHater and Rollo are 100% correct. The girls who play with players are the ones who want to play. They’re not looking for husbands. They’re looking for sex, validation, and affirmation. KEEP YOUR LEGS SHUT cannot be defeated if that really is the rule she abides by.

    Simple. Nothing to “get” or “figure out”.

    [ssm: No, that is incorrect. Girls, especially young ones, aren't very knowledgeable about their own temptation triggers. Telling them, "Just don't have sex" is like Nancy Reagan telling us when were kids, "Just say no to drugs." How effective was that once we hit college age? Not very. Because what Nancy forgot to tell us was, "Hey kids, smoking weed is actually super fun. But you should avoid it because it will make you lazy, forgetful, chubby, and make you boys grow moobs because it elevates your estrogen. So you want to avoid situations where you will be tempted to do this sooper fun but sooper unwise thing." Same for girls. Telling them just don't have sex but not giving them practical ways to avoid tempting situations misses the point that having sex with players is also super fun but there are really, really good reasons not to.]

  86. feministhater

    The difference SSM is that men ‘simply have to get’ DOING something, they actually have to take up the energy, magically get spark to in their brains and actively set out to DO IT. Whilst girls are told day in and day out by their brothers, fathers and other men that care about them in their lives to simply NOT DO SOMETHING, i.e. open their legs before marriage..

  87. feministhater

    Yea SSM, why is that?! Simply because women are rebellious and don’t like to be told what to do and hence when they get ‘tempted by players’ they are getting exactly what they wanted. Which is to disobey their parents or get one over their future husbands.

  88. SirNemesis

    Courtesy of those “PUAs” you hate so much: http://www.returnofkings.com/20834/22-signs-hes-a-player

    [ssm: I do not hate PUAs. Most women find PUAs rather charming, as do I. And on a personal level, I have found them to mostly be polite, friendly, and willing to share their thoughts with me when I have asked them questions. However, their actions are immoral and Christian girls who are serious about marriage and family-formation must avoid them. Having said all that, let's look at the list:

    1. He is in good shape.
    2. Approached you, especially during the day.
    3. Pushes for sex on the first date.
    4. Is evasive or mysterious about mushy personal things.
    5. Is in a band, especially as guitarist or lead singer.
    6. Refuses to meet your friends.
    7. Reticent to spend lots of money on you.
    8. Won’t see you more than two times a week
    9. Has friends who are good with girls.
    10. Could be described as charming.
    11. Often doesn’t want to see you on the weekend.
    12. All of your dates involve alcohol.
    13. He has a wide face.
    14. Is secretive about his phone
    15. His phone is always blowing up OR you have never heard it.
    16. Is resistant to any innovative date ideas after getting sex.
    17. Avoids PDA at all costs, especially if he’s better looking than you.
    18. He forgets which stories he’s told you.
    19. Doesn’t give a shit about Facebook.
    20. Not anxious to please you.
    21. Doesn’t call or text you beyond the bare minimum.
    22. Will only meet up when there’s the prospect of sex.

    Black Knight, the author, gives details about each point, and I advise young women to go and read his thoughts on the matter. He also points out that most young women want to be with men who are like this. I am sure he knows about that better than I do; I can only advise those young women who are serious about marriage and family from a young age, and I think his advice is at least worth considering.]

  89. Ton

    I got caught up with a lovely girl who could not not friend zone men after years of doing it. In part to remain chaste, in part because she wants the college/ career/ UMC lifestyle. It happens but how often? Reckon giving in so way more common

  90. deti

    “[ssm: "If young women set their sights on finding one decent man to get married to would just get it; this wouldn't be a problem." FIFY.]”

    LOL. What’s so damn difficult about differentiating between:

    1. I want to find a husband; and

    2. I want to have sex with that very very attractive man over there, which encounter might,but there’s a 99.999999999% probability it won’t, result in a commitment from that man?

    What is to “just get” and “just figure out” as between said two alternatives?

    [ssm: Deti, I'm trying to give them useful advice so that they can avoid getting into tempting situations and so that they will understand the importance of looking for a husband rather than a boyfriend. I would expect a fellow Christian to be supportive of that, given that our churches haven't done much to educate girls about what their temptation triggers are nor to encourage them to take early marriage seriously. It's disconcerting that you aren't supportive of what I'm attempting to do here. It's like you don't want girls to learn how to make good choices in this area. I'm sure that you must want that, but that isn't what's coming across at all.]

    “[ssm: As has been pointed out eleventy-million times now, this post is aimed at girls who aren't putting off marriage. Do try to stay on topic, darling.]”

    Fair enough, sweetums dear. I’ve had my say so I’ll take my leave.

    [ssm: It's a shame about your new lime-green gravatar. Black suited your personality.]

  91. lauratheringmistress

    If we acknowledge that part of the risk of a player to a young woman looking for a husband is that she will be caught up emotionally with him even if nothing physical occurs, then maybe the best advice for weeding them out is the push for physicality.

    To put out bluntly, she should acknowledge that any man that doesn’t respect her wish to remain a virgin isn’t worth it, no matter how witty, charming, successful, or otherwise perfect. To many girls get caught in the trap of believing they can “keep” a boyfriend through sex. This is why otherwise good girls will fall for players. Sex has become such a normal thing in dating relationships that they can’t tell the players from the average guys.

    So on the one hand, it is as simple as saying “keep your legs shut”, but in the other it’s about guarding your heart and being willing to drop a man that pushes for sex even if he isn’t a player.

    It sounds unromantic, but my husband and I actually made an agreement, shook hands and everything, that he would respect my desire to remain a virgin until marriage, and I would not try to convert him. (He was an apostate Catholic at the time. St. Augustine is my patron. I trusted Good can work on hearts way better than missionary dating can.) We both kept the bargain. He returned to the practice of the Catholic faith for reasons that had nothing to do with me. I didn’t fell like a hypocrite in my white wedding gown. But along the way, I had to be willing to drop him, much as I loved him, if he broke his oath.

  92. feministhater

    Okay, in the interest of girls who wanna get married. Look for your potential spouse, not at night clubs or bars or those places all your girlfriends ‘who just wanna have fun’ go, no. Instead, go to business functions with your father or brother or uncle, go to Church functions with them too. Make it patently clear ‘not that you’re on the lookout for men’ but are only interested in marriage. Most of the players would be binned quite quickly simply by being on the course to marriage and not deviating.

    And of course, keep your legs closed and don’t drink outside your father’s house..

  93. Farm Boy

    Should she wear a t-shirt that reads “I AM ACTIVELY SEEKING A HUSBAND!”

    That would make the fella’s job easier.

    Perhaps the t-shirt should say “I AM ACTIVELY SEEKING A HUSBAND — AND I MAKE SAMMICHES”

  94. JDG

    Christians should not fornicate or put themselves in a position where they might compromise their integrity. Girls if he tries to sleep with you before you are married, he isn’t the kind of guy a Christian girl should marry. Men if she offers you sex before she is your wife then that also should be a huge red flag.

    What else is needed to spot a player? I admit that this is not an area I excel, but it seems pretty straight forward to me. In my opinion Christians who are marriage material won’t help each other act like cads and whores. Anything else and your stacking the odds even more against yourself.

  95. Janelle

    “Also, most of this can be handled by young women heeding Earl’s admonition and not being alone with any young man she’s not related to. And especially if she’s attracted to him.”

    Like in Saudia Arabia.

  96. feministhater

    To put out bluntly, she should acknowledge that any man that doesn’t respect her wish to remain a virgin isn’t worth it, no matter how witty, charming, successful, or otherwise perfect. To many girls get caught in the trap of believing they can “keep” a boyfriend through sex. This is why otherwise good girls will fall for players. Sex has become such a normal thing in dating relationships that they can’t tell the players from the average guys.

    THIS! If a man is not willing to wait, he’s not interested in marriage. However, you should not waste his time. If you’re not interested in him, let him go. This is one reason courtship worked, it provided vetting from parents and didn’t waste either the man’s time or the lady’s time.

  97. feministhater

    JDG, I know you guys are all into your sammiches, but damn I make my own and they are damn goood. If I still wanted a wife, I would want her to cook far better meals than sammiches! I would want the works!

  98. taylore

    Many of these guys are seeking out the good girls at parks and Starbucks, etc. Just look at day game dot com. Never have I been happier that I met my husband at 18 and married him when I turned 25. Today’s dating scene is scary.

  99. Ton

    Might be best if the targeted audience avoid men who are in good shape. Helps cut done on the temptation, she’ll be dealing with a less driven man, lower testosterone etc etc.

  100. Farm Boy

    FH,

    Sammiches are for the time when you are sitting watching the big ballgame and feel like a snack. Do you want to get up and make yourself one? No.

  101. Farm Boy

    Might be best if the targeted audience avoid men who are in good shape.

    But there is more there to love. How would that work?

  102. Farm Boy

    seeking out the good girls at parks and Starbucks

    Starbucks is a good place to meet the “empowered” type; if that is what you want.

  103. deti

    SSM:

    “It’s disconcerting that you aren’t supportive of what I’m attempting to do here. It’s like you don’t want girls to learn how to make good choices in this area. I’m sure that you must want that, but that isn’t what’s coming across at all.”

    I agree that girls need to avoid, spot and resist players. While you and donal did excellent work, I just don’t think it’s as complex as you think it is. Think of it this way: “Love the Lord with all your heart, mind, soul and strength; and love your neighbor as yourself. This sums up the Law and the Prophets.”

    Yeah, the green avatar isn’t working for me. I think it makes my butt look big.

  104. Jim

    Sorry, getting married is like jumping out of an airplane with no parachute most of the time. So that leaves us with little options.

  105. Farm Boy

    White Christians are going to be out breed and extinct in a few generations.

    Indeed. The perfect storm of making guys nicer at the same time that hypergamy is unleashed.

    It is as if there was a conspiracy or something.

  106. Heywood Jablome

    A young woman’s Rationalization Hamster will steamroll over every last one of your arguments, SSM. Logic is wasted on her. The only thing that matters to a young woman in her sexual prime is her social standing among other women. She is neither receptive to — nor capable of evaluating — anyone’s explanation of the long term consequences of her actions. She is an emotional and hormonal tornado with the moral development of a toddler, so she must be restrained from without.

    Leverage that, and you have a chance to keep her from going feral. Otherwise, she’ll “unexpectedly” wind up on that infamous carousel.

  107. taylore

    Farmboy: It’s a snow day here today, I made my husband brunch, a Mexican omelet with rye toast and now I have short ribs braising for dinner. Sandwiches are too easy ;-)

  108. earl

    “@Earl, by your logic then this guy is the single most Alpha male on the face of the planet:”

    Don’t try to deflect.

    You want to know why Christians and more specifically Catholics breed…they don’t contracept their sex.

    You gave me all the tools to seduce your daughter…I also have all the tools to marry her and have 5-12 kids with her. Which do you think she would prefer?

  109. Farm Boy

    The only thing that matters to a young woman in her sexual prime is her social standing among other women

    Don’t women have better things to do? Like being moms and all?

  110. Farm Boy

    You gave me all the tools to seduce your daughter…I also have all the tools to marry her and have 5-12 kids with her. Which do you think she would prefer?

    Depends on the age of her hamster.

    Note: girls are born with little teeny hamsters

  111. Farm Boy

    You want to know why Christians and more specifically Catholics breed…they don’t contracept their sex.

    They gotta marry first.

  112. lovelyleblanc7

    It is easy to dissolve this post to “women who want to mess around with players will get played by them”, but this is not true. PUAs are like predators. They don’t go, “Oh, I’m going to look for the most non-Christian woman I can find and seduce her,”. That just doesn’t happen. They go for whoever is decent looking; they don’t filter through whether a woman is Christian or not.
    This is why Sunshinemary’s post is very important for Christian women, especially Christian women who are in college. I would tell young girls to NOT go to college parties. One of my friends told me her experience of her first college party and I told myself I would never go to one.
    Young ladies who choose to remain chaste must use discernment. Avoiding isolation is vital. If she encounters a player, she must remain as tactful as possible and get a away from him. Don’t play with fire.
    SSM is correct in that most Christian women just don’t know. I remember Donalgraeme and Ton (I think?) mentioning that men would shame a virgin for being a virgin in order to sleep with her. I never knew this.I didn’t know men would use such tactics. I have very limited contact with men outside of my family and I have a few friends who are in the same boat as me. Girls will confuse “he likes me” between “he is a player”.
    Some girls don’t have enough experience with men to get it and honestly they shouldn’t, that was what their fathers/older brothers are there for. But SSM audience is for women who don’t have an intact family or whose father never took the responsibility to pay attention to their daughters. Women need to know this.

  113. Rollo Tomassi

    But did he sin Earl? Sure, he technically bred with an inordinate number of women, but his penis never entered their vaginas. He never seduced them.

    By your metric he’s mighty man of God – celibate and abundantly ‘fruitful’.

    Though, I suppose you could fault him for not directly providing for his offspring, however, he did know his children would be better provided for by the in-vitro cuckolded “fathers” than he ever could, so maybe that’s not so great a sin as wrapping a baby up, putting it into a little boat made of reeds and sailing it down the Nile.

  114. songtwoeleven

    Oh, my, Word. Okay, so Mister did almost all of these things on the day we met. Did I marry a playuh????

    I thought I married a natural Alpha; a Command Man (as Lori Alexander says Debi Pearl refers to them.)

    He had no “wingman” because he was working at the time we met, although there was another man working as a partner with him in his job, a few doors over. The young man was a devout Catholic and he was utterly disgusted because he could see that Mister was very interested in me.

    Of course, Catholic man was unaware that both Mister and I had been praying for a very long time for our respective spouses.

  115. Michelle

    I think this post will benefit the parents of young women more than the young women themselves. I honestly don’t know if reading this before I was married would have changed anything for me. God worked everything out miraculously in my case, but I did everything wrong. Reading websites like this, as well as attempting to advise single friends, has made me see just how lucky I am. Young women are so, so, sooo naive and easily flattered.

  116. Elspeth

    @ Song:

    Did I marry a playuh????

    I had the same thought. Mine didn’t sexualize the conversation and i don’t recall a break in the rapport, but the rest was eerily familiar to me.

    But I didn’t marry a player, so I automatically started picking the post apart when I commented.

    I too have mostly subscribed to the Debi Pearl description: Command Man. And I’m sticking to it, LOL.

  117. feeriker

    Now that being said…do most women care about a man more than just how well he works his genitals? 

    Oh yes indeed: of even greater concern than the skill of his genitalia is the thickness of his wallet.

  118. Farm Boy

    Young women are so, so, sooo naive and easily flattered

    Doesn’t anybody have mothers, aunts, sisters?

  119. earl

    “But did he sin Earl?”

    Lying is a sin.

    Whether you are a dude who switches sperm to have his genetic material passed without having sex…or a dude that has contracepted sex to prevent having kids.

  120. songtwoeleven

    Elspeth: Okay, Mister didn’t sexualize the conversation, either. Strike two on the Player Scale – LOL.

    I think these are qualities of Command Men (natural Alphas, whatever) that are perverted and twisted in selfish ways by True Players. However, some of the qualities of a Command Man could be construed by SOME people as selfish.

  121. Rollo Tomassi

    They go for whoever is decent looking; they don’t filter through whether a woman is Christian or not.

    Not really.
    http://therationalmale.com/2011/09/22/dream-girls-and-children-with-dynamite/

    One of the biggest dangers of the PUA ideal is that it does nothing to address the root problem of AFCism (for lack of a better term). AFCs don’t want to stop being AFCs. Largely, they just want their ONEitis (or their “dream girl”) to hook up with them long term and then drift back into a comfortable ‘just being themselves’. According to The Game even Mystery, with all his PUA prowess, degenerates into a simpering, borderline suicidal chump when he realizes that his PUA scripts do nothing in an LTR with Katya (his ONEitis). The most notorious PUA in modern history was still an AFC, because he hadn’t killed that mentality, that AFC internalization – he hadn’t killed his inner AFC.

    Another very common occurrence is the “reformed” AFC who makes progress toward becoming more Game savvy, and as a result gets his “dream girl”, only to lose her after reverting back into an AFC frame once he’s in an LTR with her. I’m not a big Ross Jefferies fan, but he did say something very profound once, he said “teaching PUA skills to these chumps is like giving dynamite to children.” This is probably truer than he realized, because the potential for disaster is much higher. Most guys want that silver bullet, the magic formula that will get them the girl, but it does nothing to prepare them for the idyllic LTR their beta nature has fantasized about for so very long. They don’t become Men, they become children with dynamite. So are we really surprised when the guy who finally gets his Dream Girl as a result of learning Game becomes despondent and suicidal when he loses the “best thing he’ll ever have” when she leaves him? Are we shocked when his ONEitis turns out to be a BPD girl and his life’s ambitions fall into a death-spiral because he was unprepared to deal with a post-Game LTR?

    The problem with just employing PUA skills to get any woman is that sometimes it actually gets you ANY woman.

    Ladies, thank your lucky stars for Game. With any luck the strong, masculine, decisive, confidence necessary for applied Game will become internalized by men, thus giving you the Men you really want – the Man Up guys you love and hate so much, but really love all the more. Worry less about a guy using Game to create his personal harem and more about a guy not fully realizing what Game can really teach him.

  122. lauratheringmistress

    “Doesn’t anybody have mothers, aunts, sisters?”

    Yes. And they’re just as naive and clueless. Or giving bad advice like “You need to get your education first and make sure you’ve established yourself before you look for a husband.” There is no sense among nice women that there are predatory men out there. Or that the dynamics of the SMP/MMP had changed so much. My husband knew girls who were actively pushed into sexual relationships by their mothers because their mothers really thought that was the best way to secure a husband. Newsflash: this isn’t 1820 where a man will be forced into marriage if he ruins a girl. No, there really are a lot of girls out there who have good intentions but no clue how to filter and no idea how to stay out of compromising situations.

    I learned more from romance novels about maintaining my virtue than anything any female relative taught me.

  123. femininebutnotfeminist

    Thank you Donal and SSM for writing this!!! It never even occured to me that it should be written but I’m so glad you guys did! I haven’t read the comments yet so if this has already been covered just disregard my question:

    About the constant touching / kino / hugs… I’m one of those people that interprets physical touch as love / affection. Which makes this one difficult. What should I look for to determine if a guy is being physically affectionate vs trying to seduce me? Obviously if we aren’t familiar with each other that is an attempt at seduction. But what if you are at least aquainted with said guy?

  124. Joseph of Jackson

    I would like to add one that isn’t mentioned here. Qualification. You will here them offer you what seems like a compliment.

    Example:

    Player: You seem like a really cool person. You’re not overly giggly but you have a fun side and I really like that about you.

    Girl: Well Thank You.

    Most people would confuse this for a compliment, but instead he has qualified you. Qualification is where the person you are speaking to super-imposes a set of traits on you and makes positive statements that they like these characteristics in you. Psychologically, this is very powerful on men and women alike. You want to please other people and will sub-consciously try and meet the standard they have set for you.

    Here is a video on the topic from the guy who taught me:

    REMEMBER: players do things for reasons. They had a desired outcome for their interaction with you before you ever made eye contact for the first time. Be on your A game ladies.

  125. Michelle

    Farm Boy,

    Most of our mothers slept around too. In my case, my Mom told me I looked cute if I dressed like a slut. My Dad was totally silent on the subject. They now think I’m kind of weird and extreme regarding modesty. I had plenty of people speak up when I got married at 18, being a slut is just fine, getting married young is not.

    I had an Aunt who tried to tell me what was going on, but I just thought she was out of touch with the times or something. I plan on watching my daughters like a hawk until they’re safely married and knocked up. My sons too, but I’m less concerned for them.

    Plus, there is just no good advice when you spend the majority of your day in public school.

  126. lauratheringmistress

    @JoJ, yes, qualification is a powerful sales technique. If you spot it being used by anyone, male or female, it’s a good reason to be on your guard.

  127. earl

    “What should I look for to determine if a guy is being physically affectionate vs trying to seduce me?”

    Is he trying to go towards your bathing suit area.

    “But what if you are at least aquainted with said guy?”

    I stuck with hand holding, kissing, and cuddling.

  128. Rollo Tomassi

    Guys don’t seek out the community because they’re getting too much pussy from being ‘Nice’ and appreciative of women’s ‘deeper’ qualities and they don’t know how to let all these women down easy. If anything compromises self-respect (assuming a Beta even has a concept of that) it’s a Scarcity/Sniper mentality. Worry less about the guys tapping their “harems” and more about the chump crucifying himself to be a martyr for his singular “dream girl”. He’s far more common.

  129. Farm Boy

    I learned more from romance novels about maintaining my virtue than anything any female relative taught me.

    Are not romance novels about the woman putting up a fake fight before being ravished by the hunk?

  130. feeriker

    [ssm: In other words, girls, Deti's advice to you is this: Just get it.]

    No, it’s straightforward “keep your legs shut.” What about that is there to “get?”

  131. Joseph of Jackson

    “No, it’s straightforward “keep your legs shut.” What about that is there to ‘get?;”

    About the same level of complicated as a man who is exceptionally attractive to women and can get sex any time he wants (because most women don’t have trouble getting sex if they want it) being told that to avoid temptation all he has to do is keep it in his pants. That’s like explaining sword fighting by saying stick them with the pointy end. You established a goal but not the techniques necessary to achieve that goal.

    [ssm: Yes, thank you for explaining that. It's really hard to avoid temptation in the heat of the moment. It's good for a girl to know ahead of time how to avoid tempting situations and how to get out of one if she does get into one.]

  132. Elspeth

    About the same level of complicated as a man who is exceptionally attractive to women and can get sex any time he wants (because most women don’t have trouble getting sex if they want it) being told that to avoid temptation all he has to do is keep it in his pants. That’s like explaining sword fighting by saying stick them with the pointy end. You established a goal but not the techniques necessary to achieve that goal.

    Well said.

  133. lauratheringmistress

    @Farm Boy,
    You can learn a lot from other people’s mistakes. If it takes a woman’s 5 brothers beating up the man who ruined her to make a marriage happen, and I have only one brother, an he’s in Amnesty International, I can assume that it’s a bad idea to trust in my social network to make up for my bad judgement.

    Bridget Jones Diary, though, is exceptionally good for revealing how easy it is to get taken in by a charming man.

  134. Bike Bubba

    Young women are so, so, sooo naive and easily flattered

    Doesn’t anybody have mothers, aunts, sisters?

    Thank you, Farm Boy, for the PERFECT way to introduce an addition to the list. OK, we all agree that how the PUA or player works is to take an ordinary situation–OK, more likely to be a bar or frat party or something than prayer meeting but not necessarily–and turn it to their own purposes, right?

    So the young lady–or young gentleman for that matter–who wishes to remain chaste needs to attend ordinary events where adults are acting like adults so they can learn the social cues of polite society from adults.

    To draw a picture, when I was in high school, I attended a social event at church with my mom & brother where for some reason square dancing was one of the activities. I hadn’t done a do-si-do for at least four years due to my parents’ divorce, but my mom more or less drug me out on the floor, where thankfully I remembered enough to not totally mess up the whole square.

    Afterwards, she gave me a “yellow rock” and thanked me because she hadn’t had to dance with the 40-something single guy from the church who was just a little “off”.

    Also, having suffered through my parents’ divorce, I had a tough time dating when young, and then my stepdad made sure I got out to a bunch of events….among adults and how to recognize good and bad behavior there. I found Mrs. Bubba as I clued in to this.

  135. Elspeth

    You know Bike, your advice is good. I just think those of you who have been able to plug into good Christian networks and have homeschooled all of your kids have absolutely NO IDEA how many parents -Christian parents- haven’t the foggiest of 1) how bad it really is out there and 2) the damage they are doing to their kids by actively encouraging them to spend virtually every waking moment with their school age peers.

    Aunts and sisters and many mothers? Huh.

  136. Elspeth

    I don’t mean to be snarky but I frankly get sick of being told how eeeeaaaasy it is for my daughter to be married if she really wanted to be and that she isn’t because she is either a bitch, ugly, fat or too interested in “having fun” or building a career to be bothered.

    “Just” plug into a good church. “Just” have children around other adults. “Just” do this. “Just” do that.

    It’s like people are blind. I’m surveying the landscape, and it ain’t pretty people. How the heck do you figure id it’s hard for a good man that it’s any easier for a good woman? I get that these forums are about balancing the scales. But when it comes to true Christians, it isn’t easy for any of them male or female.

    I stumbled into marriage at 22 and that only because I didn’t have a clue not because I had it all figured out. But that was 20 years ago. This ain’t 1994.

  137. Michelle

    Bike Bubba and Elspeth,

    I agree wholeheartedly. Children learn to be adults by acting like adults. How are they supposed to act like adults when they spend all their time with peers? I don’t know about everyone here, but my 11 years in public school were eerily reminiscent of “Lord of the Flies”. I left early and attended the community college until I was 18.

  138. Bike Bubba

    To build on what Joseph of Jackson links, look at Adam Lyons. OK, first of all, my “gaydar” is PEGGED looking at him; pants too tight, shirt doesn’t fit, vest doesn’t fit but leaves a triangle of white to draw eyes to his crotch, and he talks about his mom being a stripper.

    He gets away with it because we Americans love a British or Aussie accent, but if you’ve been around adults who act like adults, you pick up on it immediately. I believe our gracious hostess commented a bit back about the relative “fagginess” of a lot of the PUAs out on the net, no?

    Put differently, there is a fine line between “jerk game” and just “jerk”, and interacting with adults really helps a person learn this.

  139. feeriker

    Should she wear a t-shirt that reads “I AM ACTIVELY SEEKING A CHRISTIAN HUSBAND!”

    There. FIFY.

    Sure, why not? If nothing else, think of the icebreaker conversation-starting potential in such a unique approach.

  140. Pilgrim of the East

    isn’t it strange, that nobody(e.g. Zippy) has written here yet, that such advice is entirely pointless, because game only works on sluts, pointing at Krauser’s 2.7% success rate?

  141. earl

    “Worry less about the guys tapping their “harems” and more about the chump crucifying himself to be a martyr for his singular “dream girl”. He’s far more common.”

    Which guy is ruining more lives?

    The dude plundering all those women…or the dude crucifying himself for his dream girl.

    Seems to me the guy plundering those women is changing his life and their lives for the worst….the guy crucifying himself for his dream girl is changing himself for the better.

    Pain & sacrifice > hedonism and pleasure

  142. lovelyleblanc7

    “I don’t mean to be snarky but I frankly get sick of being told how eeeeaaaasy it is for my daughter to be married if she really wanted to be and that she isn’t because she is either a bitch, ugly, fat or too interested in “having fun” or building a career to be bothered.”

    Thank you Elspeth. Some people just think that any chaste, Christian, girl has marriage proposals falling on her lap left and right.

  143. Bike Bubba

    OK, look at Rollo’s video of the “Kiss Close” with Steve Jabba (the hut?) for another example. Girl walks past a sex shop at night in hot shorts, guy comes up with fumbling Spanish…..OK, first of all, the girl is breaking almost all of our gracious hostess’ recommendations–it’s pretty clear that she’s on the prowl for something, and my first guess is “money on the dresser”, if you catch my drift.

    And then you have the guy prowling out in the dicey area of town late at night…..again, it takes a rather naïve person not to see through that, no?

  144. Farm Boy

    I feel for your daughter’s plight Elspeth, but the fact remains that there are lots of good fellas out there. I know bunches of them. They probably just are not sexy. Can’t have everything, I suppose.

  145. sway

    I see a lot of advice on this post about how a girl can find a marriageable husband, but not much about how to be a marriageable wife. I admit I haven’t read too much outside of this post, but I think your readers would be well served by this advice as well.

    I believe a lot of players are created, because there are far too many un-marriageable women in the west. Slutty, fat, loud, masculine, all the typical things you hear out of the ‘sphere. I believe it to be more of a response than a catalyst.

  146. Farm Boy

    It does seem that the guys and the gals have different perspectives on the numerical availability of fine examples of the other sex. I would assume that it is due to different perspectives. Or is it something more?

  147. Denise

    I’m not sure how many readers here also follow Guy at What Women Never Hear. In reading this, I couldn’t help but think of the fairly holistic “teaching” or wisdom he’s advocated in how women are to interact with men, which, as it relates to the theme of this post, I would sum up as “Most men will attempt to sleep with whomever they find attractive. If a woman refuses to have sex, they will choose to wait for a woman whom they find highly attractive **and whom they highly respect**. If a woman possesses and exercises self-control and self-respect, she will naturally filter out the men who are only looking for sex, and she will generate a greater degreee of respect and devotion in the man who realizes he will have to wait to sleep with her and chooses to do so.” The difference between that perspective and what seems to be advocated in this post is that a man’s desire to sleep with a woman is not an automatic disqualifier, but rather is expected. By WWNH standards, Alpha = Best Potential Husband, but also Alpha = highest degree of temptation to compromise. (A very thorough breakdown of the qualities that distinguish Alphas, Betas, and Gammas, can be found here: https://wwnh.wordpress.com/2010/05/15/923-the-male-matrix-alpha-beta-gamma—part-i/ ) The latter point about the Alpha presenting the highest degree of temptation for a woman is where SSM and Donal would be in agreement with WWNH. But I think that this post focuses on Alpha=Avoid, whereas I believe Guy’s perspective would be that women need to build their own character, vision of their longterm goals, and level of self-respect so that they do not compromise themselves for the sake of momentary fun or due to ignorance of how men think.

    Stepping away from WWNH’s perspective, my own is that this is largely an issue of temptation. An attractive man who is pushing for sex presents a temptation. For any woman, regardless of her faith, it presents a temptation to compromise her longterm best interest and her opportunity to generate genuine respect and devotion in a man. For Christian women, it also presents a potential spiritual failure (which is also true for non-Christians, but they will not be conscious of this). So, to the extent that this is about fleeing temptation, I agree. But to the extent that this is about “avoiding attractive men who actively show interest in you,” I would say that women will not be served by doing that.

  148. FuzzieWuzzie

    Janelle, sorry for being so late in responding but, there is a cultural reason for protecting the honor of women in the family in Saudi Arabia through preventitive means. Violate a woman’s honor requires and it requires a response. Between families, this could turn into a vendetta. Between tribes, it could turn into a war. It’s not about curtailing freedom. All parties would like to avoid these consequences, especially mothers.

  149. JDG

    feministhater
    February 13, 2014 at 3:54 pm

    It is the submission factor that is attached to female sammich making in our post feminist culture that I allude too. However, I do like me a good sammich.

    http://mesohungy.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/pastrami_from_the_hat.jpg

    But you are also correct. I too like the works,

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/Philippine_Food.jpg

    and I thank God for providing a woman who was raised in a much saner culture than ours.

  150. Denise

    “It does seem that the guys and the gals have different perspectives on the numerical availability of fine examples of the other sex. I would assume that it is due to different perspectives. Or is it something more?”

    This is a big country. Hundreds of millions of people. It would be wrong to assume that numbers of people with any particular characteristic are evenly distributed throughout the population, or that what one person has experienced in one corner is indicative of what is being experienced in another. It would also be wrong to assume that any two people of good character would even like one another, let alone be compatible for marriage. Even in cultures of arranged marriage such as India, thought is given to how well suited the two would be for one another. Also, I’ve found on here that men tend to excuse/justify their own pickiness while criticizing it in women.

  151. Bike Bubba

    Farm boy, hopefully you’re right, but what I see as a dad is too many young men who think they’re really hot, but have no apparent work ethic, no living faith, and can’t be bothered to wear a belt, tie their shoes, button their shirt, or comb their hair. It doesn’t stop the worldling girls from going for them, but my daughters have no interest whatsoever.

  152. feeriker

    I’m not telling women to “just get it” or “just figure it out for yourself”, unlike some misguided folks around these parts. There’s nothing to “just get” or “figure out” in my advice. It’s very simple. It’s so simple any woman with a sixth grade education and an IQ of 80 can understand and implement it.

    Deti, I think it’s clear that we’re heading into the inevitable “do women have moral agency?” zone here. Of course ALL women understand “keep your legs shut until your wedding night” and why it’s important, just as ALL guys understand the motivation behind “keep it in your pants unless you plan on putting a ring on it” (unless you like the thrill of risking child support payments or STDs – and yes, I fully anticipated a response of the type JoJ posted). It’s akin to the fat woman with a junk food addiction asking “what can I do to avoid making myself any fatter?” when she already knows good and well that the answer is “avoid the bakery, hit the produce stand and the gym, and stop stuffing cakes down yer maw.”

    IOW, this really is an exercise in attempted hamster-slaying. Should it succeed, its impact on the Christian MMP will rival the splitting of the atom’s impact on science.

  153. FuzzieWuzzie

    Elspeth, to echo Farm Boy’s comment, I am sorry for the difficulty your daughter is experiencing. I have read enough Obsidian to see that this marketplace is really messed up for black people. It’s cut deeper and earlier than for the mainstream.
    What brought i home to me was a recent post of his on Just4Guys about how he attended a”potluck” (?) and there were very few guys there. He did mention that these events have much greater cultural significance.
    It it ever cuts this deep in the mainstream, women are going to be howling!

  154. earl

    Everyone has a basic understanding why they shouldn’t sin.

    But the quick thrill they experience while sinning is why everyone does it.

    And since women are more emotional…they are more prone to sin because thrills come from the emotional side of things. Their moral agency is weaker than men…which is why men and older women need to protect the younger ones.

  155. moosenorseman

    How about the obvious? Initiate physical contact, and see if he escalates it or withdraws. The guy that scoots over when you sit too close to him is obviously not a player, he’s removing himself from temptation. When a guy is trying to eliminate temptations towards impropriety, it’s pretty obvious. Of course, it’s also not sexy. If, when trying to describe a guy, “sexy” comes before “conscientious,” he’s probably a player.

  156. Splashman

    Deti wrote:

    I agree that girls need to avoid, spot and resist players. While you and donal did excellent work, I just don’t think it’s as complex as you think it is. Think of it this way: “Love the Lord with all your heart, mind, soul and strength; and love your neighbor as yourself. This sums up the Law and the Prophets.”

    If God thought as you did, the Bible would consist of only that verse.

    It doesn’t. The Bible is 1% explicated principles, and 99% examples of what happens when we put those principles into action, or ignore them. You might want to think about why that is.

    I don’t agree with everything SSM wrote, but that’s to be expected. Her basic point, that young women should know themselves, know the enemy, and be on guard, is unassailable. (And of course, that point is just as true for men.)

    “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.” Matthew 10:16

  157. Michelle

    It seems there are homeschooled children in greater numbers every year. This fact alone gives me hope for my children. They are all under 9 though, so we have a little time yet.

    I see a lot of articles on ROK and such advocating leaving the country to find better women. Is it possible that feminine women will have to do the same to find good husband material?

    I recently read that female converts to Islam far outnumber the males. Could it be because Muslim men are still able to exercise authority over their women? Women fall prey to pickup artists and Muslims because they display some of traits that indicate the real, masculine authority we crave. Western men aren’t allowed to display strength and Western women have been taught femininity is degrading.

    It has to be a huge paradigm shift for both sexes if Western culture is going to survive.

  158. Hipster Racist

    Here’s how it’s done, ladies.

    So I’m on a business trip and I go to this bar where there is some party going on. I meet this petite little thing, I’ll call her Becky. I start chatting her up. We talk for a few hours, have a bunch of drinks, then a group of us go to this other place to get some food. I sit down next to her, and use this awesome super secret “kino” trick I learned from a PUA video. I start stroking the small of her back while we’re sitting there. So we leave and she offers to drive me back to my hotel. I invite her up. She says yes. She comes into my room, I throw her on the bed and we start making out.

    Then, she stops me. She doesn’t want to go “all the way.” So we make out for a bit and she leaves.

    See? That’s it. There’s no “trick.” You just say “no.”

    Women are not being “seduced” by “players.” Women meet men they like and if they both want to have sex, they do. Honestly, “game” does “work” – it’s just called “flirting.”

    Why is there this ridiculous assumption that it’s men chasing around women, when half the time it’s women chasing around men? Why is there this ridiculous assumption that women are using sex to get “commitment” from men? Girls just wanna have fun.

    If a Christian woman is serious about marriage, she shouldn’t “date” at all. Her family should do what Scott says at the Courtship Pledge site.

  159. Splashman

    Earl wrote:

    And since women are more emotional…they are more prone to sin because thrills come from the emotional side of things.

    Women are more prone to sin than men? Really?

    Adam would argue that.

    Women are more likely to be led astray by their emotions, men by their reason. If you think men are less prone to sin, you haven’t been paying attention.

  160. Farm Boy

    Bike Bubba,

    I am in a place where fellas at least have a modicum of ambition. But I understand your point. I have nephews who’s parents were divorced (mom being crazy and selfish) , and the fella’s work modest jobs and play video games. And that’s it. A fine legacy of feminism.

  161. Farm Boy

    advocating leaving the country to find better women. Is it possible that feminine women will have to do the same to find good husband material?

    No. Feminine women are so rare that they should be able find good husbands. Perhaps not sexy ones.

    Leif Erikson is available. Probably not a tingle generator though.

  162. FuzzieWuzzie

    Michelle, both American women and men have had their reputations precede them overseas. This does work to the advantage of American men.
    Here’s a clip from the first season fo Due South. It does say a lot.

  163. Farm Boy

    Elspeth,

    Maybe your daughters should try online dating. I have always figured that a lady’s profile that subltly hints at femininity and not feminism would work well. It might be worth a try.

  164. Farm Boy

    I recently read that female converts to Islam far outnumber the males. Could it be because Muslim men are still able to exercise authority over their women?

    Yes

  165. Splashman

    Michelle wrote:

    It seems there are homeschooled children in greater numbers every year. This fact alone gives me hope for my children. They are all under 9 though, so we have a little time yet.

    Mine are a little older, and in my neck of the woods there are a lot of homeschoolers, so as you, I’m hopeful. Besides all the obvious advantages to the children, the fact that parents are willing to defy one aspect of western culture in order to raise their children properly, is an indicator (though not a guarantee) that they have defied other, equally destructive aspects. I’ll leave the converse for y’all to ponder.

  166. Farm Boy

    display some of traits that indicate the real, masculine authority we crave

    Get to it then. Make sammiches for all the guys here and ship them via UPS. It is winter, they will keep.

  167. Chris

    LLB and Elspeth: agree with you. The trouble is that you have to somehow meet a husband and in our society you really want to be burning for him to marry because there will be temptation (before and after the ring) and you want a lot of our basic biology to work as it is intended to. Which brings me to something SSM said.

    Yes, girls all have an inner slut-wannabe, and I am sure you are correct that all men have an inner player-wannabe. And it can happen that a young couple inadvertently ends up escalating things sexually, but with players it is not inadvertent but rather on purpose, the entire goal of the interaction. We are hoping that looking through that list will at least give girls an idea of what to look out for from a man who is purposefully trying to get her into a situation that will be sexually tempting, assuming that she doesn’t want to be in a tempting situation because she is trying to stay chaste and search for a husband.

    The inner slut-n-playa are things that belong inside the bedroom, where you can just, when married, go for it: the profound irony is that in this kultur we have a bunch of singles not getting much (if they are discerning enough not to pick up sluts and playas) as singles and then (particularly if caught by the aforementioned sluts and playas) having sexless marriages. There are enough times within a marriage when sex takes the back burner — after childbearing, during pregnancy (V. once talked about having morning sickness from conception — and her new husband having to deal with her puke. My father came down with the Spanish Flu (epidemic of 1957) on his honeymoon, and also managed to get himself stung by a swarm of bees while my Mum adopted me from the maternity home. Illnesses and accidents happen).

    Oneitis and the inner naughtiness have their place. In marriage.

    But before, young woman and older woman, if the man is interested in you romantically he is dealing with a wish to seduce. you. right. now. Every man. He is practising self discipline — and imperfectly. One tell is, particularly if you are talking to the highly verbal and intelligent (personal experience) is that we become tounge-tied. The smooth talker is keeping some emotional distance.

    And this is one reason I believe engagements should be short: you will desire him and waiting becomes difficult. Long engagements, in my view, imply that the couple are already sexual or someone is ghey.

  168. Chris

    Oh, all the single ladies: say after me Valentines day was made by Hallmark . Married women, remember 13th March is coming, so you can reciprocate for his care today :-)

  169. Farm Boy

    What brought i home to me was a recent post of his on Just4Guys about how he attended a”potluck” (?) and there were very few guys there

    I read that. The problem there was that all of the women were older “career women” looking to corral a guy. Their best years went to other men, and as a result have “issues”.

  170. earl

    “Women are more prone to sin than men? Really?

    Adam would argue that.”

    So who was the first one to be disobedient to God and eat the apple? Who was led astray first?

    I will say this though…men have the potential to commit worse sins because of reason. Adam’s cover up and passing the blame into her made things worse for him when he should have just admitted his fault.

    Instead the rationalization hamster came out and Eve just learned all about the hamster from watching Adam do it.

  171. Splashman

    Michelle wrote:

    I recently read that female converts to Islam far outnumber the males. Could it be because Muslim men are still able to exercise authority over their women? Women fall prey to pickup artists and Muslims because they display some of traits that indicate the real, masculine authority we crave. Western men aren’t allowed to display strength and Western women have been taught femininity is degrading.

    Modern American culture (aided by modern Christians) has perverted the natural order (God’s design) by undermining male authority in the family and society at large.

    Islamic culture goes the other direction, but is no less perverted.

  172. Farm Boy

    you have to somehow meet a husband and in our society you really want to be burning for him to marry because there will be temptation

    Temptation isn’t quite the right word. Perhaps “Jenny Erikson Experience” would do.

  173. Chris

    jenny Erikson is a good example of what not to do.
    1. Believe you are the Christian version of a special snowflake and are invulnerable to temptation.
    2. Have wild times with Krauser and his ilk.
    3. Marry someone who is never going to be Krauser and his ilk.
    4. Frivorce him. Refuse the guidance of the church and church discipline
    5. Neglect your kids so you can date.
    6. Realize that your best hope is someone like me (20 years older) and that in my eyes you do not qualify.

    I’ve had an infection (there is a virus going around) and am off work. Looked at the kiwi “fitness singles”. Most of the women there are NOT landwhales etc, but read the profiles — No. Not her. I’m not that stupid. Most playas would game every one of these women, but I’m not wanting to play that game.

    I think SSM needs to set up a Yenta service.

  174. Chad

    @ Earl

    “So who was the first one to be disobedient to God and eat the apple? Who was led astray first?”

    Depends on how you look at it. Do you see the first sin as Eve eating the apple, in Adam’s lack of leadership, or Adam’s eating the apple?

    @ Elspeth and Lovely

    I personally feel for you. I think I have it EASY compared to Christian women, Though maybe I’ve just come to terms with the hurdles I have to overcome.. Still, I’m ok with things mostly because I have the valuable commodity known as time. In 10 years, I can still marry a girl in her early 20’s at the age of 38. I have no qualms about doing so, doubt they’ll develop, and I go to traditional churches where such things are not unheard of (though rare). As the spiritual head of household, I also know my leadership and have faith in my ability to lead a somewhat spiritually immature woman who is chaste and feminine to a deeper maturity.

    Women don’t get any of those choices.

    You have a higher value, and a wider market, but you gotta sell while the goods are good. I’m also of the belief that you can’t be Godly as a man without being masculine, and there are precious few of those.

    Still, no matter whether you’re a man or a woman in today’s world it always comes down to faith and prayer.

  175. Splashman

    Earl wrote:

    So who was the first one to be disobedient to God and eat the apple? Who was led astray first?

    Adam was standing right there as Eve was tempted, and failed to exercise the protective and leadership role God had given him, as she failed to exercise the submissive role God had given her. While Eve’s sin may have happened first (perhaps by a few seconds), they were both led astray by Satan, and both sinned at first opportunity.

    I’d blow that trumpet a little more softly, if I were you.

  176. earl

    “Depends on how you look at it. Do you see the first sin as Eve eating the apple, in Adam’s lack of leadership, or Adam’s eating the apple?”

    The first sin is Eve eating the apple. Adam’s sin was listening to his wife and then eating the apple.

  177. earl

    “I’d blow that trumpet a little more softly, if I were you.”

    Calm down…I’m trying to learn something here. Not everything is an attack at you.

    So Eve ate the apple first.

    Was Adam listening in to what the serpent was saying and gave her a wink and nod to go do it because he secretly wanted to as well in his heart? That would explain the whole fall scenerio very well.

  178. FuzzieWuzzie

    Chris, you’re right. the primary disqualifier is one of attitude. While a player might go for it, we’re looking for someone to live with. OOPS!
    SSM could start a matchmaking service. Since the demand is so heavy on the male side, she could charge the gals five dollars to sign up and the guys five thousand. We’d call that cheap, considering the alternative.
    One last thing, you’re on the other side of the dateline. It will always be yesterday here.

  179. femininebutnotfeminist

    @ Elspeth, Lovely, Chris, and Chad

    +1 on all that you guys and gals said about it not being easy for us marriage minded chaste christian women either.

    ~ I’ve been a Christian since I was 18, doesn’t make it easier for me.
    ~I’ve been chaste right up until today, doesn’t make it easier for me.
    ~I’ve been marriage minded since I was a kid and I make it known to any guy who shows much interest in me, doesn’t make it easier for me.
    ~I’m one of those annoying little people (aka, not fat) that can eat as much as I want of whatever I want without having to watch my weight (5’4″, 105-110 lbs), doesn’t make it easier for me.
    ~I’ve been told by a LOT of people (guys and girls of all ages) that I’m attractive, pretty, cute, beautiful, whatever, doesn’t make it easier for me.
    ~Even though I’m 28 I am regularly mistaken for being 19-22, doesn’t make it easier for me.
    ~I’m a girly girl, wearing mostly skirts and dresses when I’m not in my work clothes (scrubbs) and I dress modestly feminine, doesn’t make it easier for me.
    ~I’m very quiet and reserved in real life and have been told countless times that I am the nicest person they know, am sweet, etc, doesn’t make it easier for me.
    ~I don’t react to a nice guy talking to me with a nuclear rejection (as an INFJ I am very sensitive to rejection myself and therefore try to consider others’ feelings), doesn’t make it easier for me.
    ~I do not believe in frivorce (the ultimate rejection) and plan to get a pre-nup as a gift to my hopefully future husband as proof, doesn’t make it easier for me…. BTW, I plan to write the first ever pro-pre-nup post ever really soon, so DIBBS! :-)

    If it were true that we have it so easy then I would have been married off long ago.

  180. Chad

    @ Earl

    I have no idea where Adam was. But that’s the point. They were husband and wife, and he wasn’t their. Nor was his leadership strong enough to keep her listening to him and listening to God’s will. Instead she listened to the serpent.

    My personal opinion is that, with this view, they sinned at the same time. A lack of leadership and a giving into temptation. The lack of leadership wouldn’t have been a sin until it was seen he was being such a chump that she didn’t respect him nor God as much as her own Pride. Her giving into temptation wasn’t a sin until the actual act.

    I also believe that God’s judgments and punishments seem to support this, though obviously there are just as many other interpretations that could be had, thus why I asked your opinion. But both the fall and how men and women act since the fall seems to support this.

    I’m one of the men that blames the beta chump husband as much as the cheating wife. Different sins, different levels of culpability, still sinning. But then, I got ripped on last time I said I blame men who’s wives divorced them for allowing their wives into situations where they’d be tempted (bad church, bad friends, girls nights out, not having leadership, not providing, not leading, not being a man). But then, maybe I’m just a judgmental asshole and reading all of the Bible wrong where God says that men should LEAD.

    Cue whining about other people’s sins from butthurt men.

  181. Ton

    That wasn’t me darling. I’ve never seen a man shame a virgin, male or female. The typical reaction to a woman saying she is a virgin is a mental bull$hit.

    Seems to me the notion Adam was near by is pretty shaky and only recently agreed to ie more feminism.

  182. Splashman

    @earl,

    Sorry ’bout that. I’m calm, just didn’t understand your motive.

    Adam heard it all. No wink and a nod — he just stood there. His sin was passivity, when God had appointed him leader and protector. Taking a bite was also a sin, but was also the result of passivity — allowing his wife to lead him.

    Was Adam’s passivity Eve’s fault? No. Satan knew very well that God created Adam (the male prototype) to be combative (the competitive instinct) in response to a direct attempt at persuasion. So Satan attacked Adam indirectly, through Eve. And it worked like a charm.

    Men and women tend to respond to different sorts of persuasion/temptation. That doesn’t mean one sex is more prone to sin than the other. God didn’t reward Adam with the leadership role on merit. He created a hierarchical relationship because that is the only relationship which actually works. And he gave each sex the characteristics they would need to make it work.

  183. Splashman

    @Chad wrote:

    I have no idea where Adam was.

    “When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.” Genesis 3:6

  184. Chad

    Ah, I see. My translation doesn’t say explicitly “with her” but just immediately says she gave some to him. But yes, in order to do so, he would have to be with her.

    Never made that connection.

    Not too much of a view shift with the new info, but it certainly changes it from “he was a distant leader” to “He just sat on his ass while they each fell into sin”

  185. imnobody00

    could use some help in figuring out how not to accidentally end up in one of their beds.

    No one ends up accidentally in a bed. No one ends up in a bed without being an enthusiastic participant. Women that want to remain chaste are able to do so, as the have always been . The best player in the world cannot do anything about it. Everything else is only excuses and rationalizations.

    Women love to avoid responsibility and love to say: “I don’t know how I found myself in the bed with Mr. Hot Guy”. Honey, spare me the BS, I’ll tell you how: you put one leg before the other and walked: that’s how.

  186. FuzzieWuzzie

    Femininebutnotfeminist, with the stats you’ve given, your ideal man would be four inches taller at 5’8″. This sexual/marriage marketplace has been hard on men less than six foot. I don’t know if this helps but, shorter guys are shellshocked.

  187. Farm Boy

    This sexual/marriage marketplace has been hard on men less than six foot.

    I am 6-2 and it hasn’t been great for me. It must truly be bad for short guys.

    Fuzzie, how about a Randy Newman video?

  188. FuzzieWuzzie

    Farm Boy, while I was previewing the video, i was reminded of how it really made short people mad when it was new. I am already in the doghouse with SSM for defending one aspect of that atrocious RoK post.

  189. Feather Blade

    “ssm: As has been pointed out eleventy-million times now, this post is aimed at girls who aren’t putting off marriage.”

    I suspect the mental disconnect that Deti is experiencing is caused by the firm conviction that there is no such creature.

    “How about the obvious? Initiate physical contact, and see if he escalates it or withdraws. The guy that scoots over when you sit too close to him is obviously not a player, he’s removing himself from temptation. ”

    Because doing this will brand a girl as forward/ a slut and therefore unsuitable for wifing.

  190. Velvet

    tl;dr – I was making sandwiches (really!). But I would add the phrase “at church” to everything listed in your op – seriously, some of those places are meat markets. Youth and singles groups harbor predators of virtue, male and female alike.. Nightclub: obvious. Spring Break Mexico Mission: also obvious. While I do not believe in Christian game, Church game is alive and well. Just say no.

  191. Splashman

    @moosenorseman wrote:

    How about the obvious? Initiate physical contact, and see if he escalates it or withdraws. The guy that scoots over when you sit too close to him is obviously not a player, he’s removing himself from temptation.

    What if the guy escalated for the same reason?

    @Feather Blade wrote:

    Because doing this will brand a girl as forward/ a slut and therefore unsuitable for wifing.

    You’re more polite than me. I would have prefaced your reply with, “Isn’t it obvious?” :)

  192. femininebutnotfeminist

    @ Hipster Racist,

    I thought you were a player? At least, I think it was you who called yourself one somewhere upthread… (it would take forever to wade through all these comments to check so please correct me if I’m mistaken)

    @ FuzzyWuzzy,

    Yeah, 5’8″ is not a bad height for me at all. It’s taller than me (though at 5’4″ I don’t think I have ever met a fully grown man that was shorter than me so…) but still not so tall that I couldn’t sneak a kiss whenever I please without having to pull him down to me. And I’m sorry, but I’m not sure what you mean by shellshocked… I know what it means in a military sense but I’m not sure how you meant it here. Please elaborate?

  193. Michelle

    @Splashman- “Islamic culture goes the other direction, but is no less perverted.”

    I agree with you here, I wasn’t attempting to say we should all convert. Every good lie has a grain of truth in it, yeah?

    @Fuzzie- Wow, I’m glad my husband doesn’t take that long to get ready to go out. 

    @Farm Boy- “No. Feminine women are so rare that they should be able find good husbands. Perhaps not sexy ones.”

    I hope you’re right about this, for my daughters’ sakes. I don’t recall a lot of good Christian men around when I was dating, but it was all such a circus, I probably blocked a lot of it out.

  194. moosenorseman

    I’d agree with you if it was prolonged and overt. However, a short “accidental” contact will show you the guy’s subconscious reaction, and like females are prone to rationalize male touch, he will be prone to rationalize it so long as it is A) essentially harmless (i.e. a way that you would touch your grandfather) and B) an isolated incident. I’m not recommending jumping in the dude’s lap, rather noticing if he goes out of his way to avoid contact that you wouldn’t think twice about if he was your grandfather.

  195. Splashman

    @Michelle wrote:

    I agree with you here, I wasn’t attempting to say we should all convert.

    We’re fine — I knew you didn’t mean it that way.

    Every good lie has a grain of truth in it, yeah?

    Yep.

  196. Johnycomelately

    So I’m guessing the sum of the whole post is that women don’t have agency over their ability to not follow through once aroused?

  197. FuzzieWuzzie

    Feminiebutnotfeminist, by “shellshocked”, I meant having experienced too much rejection. Both Farm Boy and I are 6’2″ and we have had enough. The dating market is even harder on shorter men.

  198. Splashman

    @moosenorseman,

    You’re entitled to your opinion; I’m not going to try to talk you out of it.

    My opinion is that any physical overture, even under the guise of a test (which could be bungled or misinterpreted), is as unwise as it is unnecessary. If he’s a player, it will become apparent. She just needs to be paying attention — thus SSM’s checklist.

  199. Hipster Racist

    @femininenotfeminist

    It was mostly meant as a joke. I don’t really believe there is a such thing as a “player” – that was sort of my point, that I don’t think that men are “playing” women any more than women “play” men. I object to the idea that sweet, innocent girls are being seduced by predatory men with their magical “game” powers.

    I’m not at all kidding about the INFJ thing – you are my perfect personality match. Plus your self description is quite appealing.

    Seriously, email me. I won’t bite. Well, at least not until the honeymoon.

  200. redneck01

    The first is the so-called “natural” player; this is a man who is self-taught. He developed his craft (the art of seduction) through nothing but force of personality and trial and error. The natural’s abundant personal experiences with women have left him intimately familiar with the fairer sex.

    The second type goes by many different names, but perhaps the most familiar is “Pick-Up Artist”, or “PUA”. This man has studied how to seduce women, using a variety of available resources such as books, the internet, seminars and even multi-day “boot camps”.

    Because seduction is non verbal, pre verbal, and pre rational, it is hard to teach and hard to learn. Thus boot camps and such like are for many men, perhaps most men, not very effective.

    Great and highly successful players such as Mystery were people with terrible social skills, natural dorks, who had to consciously learn and explicitly verbalize what good social skills are, They unnaturals. Truth is, he still pretty dorky, doing by conscious thought what should be natural and instinctive, but because he does it by conscious thought, he can communicate what he does far better than a natural could.

    When a man has to take conscious thought about how to proceed with a woman, it shows as a subtle incongruence, and often a far from subtle incongruence.

    A standard tactic of any player trained, and some naturals, is the neg. The neg is not an insult, but a compliment with a bit of vinegar in it to make the honey go down easier, or playfulness with an element of teasing. Too much vinegar, too much teasing, he is trying too hard, and obviously a player – but of course, if the right amount of vinegar, the right amount of teasing, the girl does not realize she has been negged – not because it is not obvious, but because she does not want to know.

    The manipulative tactics of the player are not noticed, not because he very cleverly conceals them, but because, if done right, the girl does not want to notice them and will rationalize them away.

    It is hard to tell to what extent players get more girls because they are more successful with girls, and to what extent they get more girls merely because they hit on every one they see, but it is remarkably easy to tell, that the neg, done right, works. Thus the neg is the bread and butter tactic of players everywhere.

    The short short of game is for a man to be confident, to touch a girl often, and to neg her well – but of course that is pretty much what a woman wants for a husband, so it is little use for a woman to be watchful for those things, for she will find she is making a beeline to them.

    So what things show in a player that a woman should not like and can plausibly teach herself to not like? The answer is “abundance mentality”, the view that women are pretty much interchangeable and there are plenty of them. If someone is not a player, he will treat his interaction with a pretty girl as something that matters, matters a lot. Thus, shy, nervous, etc, struggling with his shyness – not the personality that easily delivers a good neg.

    If a woman wants to avoid players, she should cut the socially awkward guy some slack, and see if he is less awkward once he relaxes. Abundance mentality shows as easy confidence, but that sort of confidence is not in a woman’s best interest.

    Women are not going to teach themselves to not like men who are confident, touch them frequently, and neg them well, any more than a man could teach himself to not like youth and beauty. They might succeed in teaching themselves to not like men whose confidence proceeds from abundance mentality.

  201. Lady Just Saying

    @Fuzzie

    My DH is 5’8″ and I couldn’t be more attracted to him. I’ve always preferred short(ish) tall makes me feel smothered. I know there’s a Boo Bear to your Yogi. I guess the dating market is even harder than when I was in it, and I’m glad to be out.

  202. Ceer

    The best way for a woman to resist players is to

    1) Deliberately view good men as strong. Focus on their good qualities.
    2) Do your picking while you aren’t ovulating.
    3) Keep around him or your female friends while you are fertile.
    4) Pick female friends who are pro-monogamy.

    It really isn’t THAT hard to limit the player from your life.

  203. Wild Man

    Good one SSM this is exactly how it was for me and my wife. She wore long, classy skirts and elegant outfits and most men knew not to mess with her, beautiful as she is. The ones that tried failed.

    Next thing you know I walked right across those boundaries with carte blanche and the pastor’s blessing, and unwrapped the gift on our wedding day.

  204. FuzzieWuzzie

    Lady Just Saying, maybe you know another 5’8″ man who is single and can send him to Femininebutnotfeminist. Boo Boo Bear was Yogi’s sidekick but, Yogi did have a girlfriend and her name was Cindy.
    The dating market is harsh and IMHO well overdue for a “reset”.
    Thanks for the kind thoughts.

  205. redneck01

    My previous post on how to tell a player was vague, rambling, and not very helpful. Here is a post that is likely to be lot more helpful.

    A player will always tell a girl that she is special and exceptional to him, but leave her with a strong feeling that she is completely interchangeable with the other dozen girls he hit on in the last few days.

    If you find your hamster is doing circles trying to figure out whether your special to some guy you met just a short time ago, the answer is easy. You are not special to him.

  206. Feather Blade

    @Splashman:
    You’re more polite than me. I would have prefaced your reply with, “Isn’t it obvious?” :)
    *snerk* There is that. ^_^.

    Seriously though, it’s a matter of inter-sexual communication, so “obvious”, more often than not, …isn’t.

  207. Joseph of Jackson

    @SSM

    “It should be noted that these aren’t “neat” categories. Some naturals will study what the PUAs teach, and some PUAs will develop a lot of skill at seduction over time. As a general (though not universal) rule the PUA is more easily spotted than a natural, and is less of a threat.”

    I need to cover something that isn’t talked about much because the female side of this isn’t thought through much on this part of the internet. PUA’s understand the inherent psychology of the female mind and actively work to use these rules to their advantage. Master PUA’s can make the most formidable Alpha look tame when it come to tingle generation. Everything is thought through and no stone is left un-turned. They do this not just because they enjoy sex (which they do) but also because of the satisfaction and focus it gives them. Most PUA’s who endeavor to a high level become very successful in life (cardinally speaking). It’s about self improvement as much as sex.

    Ladies, I want you to understand what your inherent characteristics are and how they will be exploited. So here is the list

    1) You were built to be submissive to a man. There is of course the occasional woman who isn’t, but they are rare. You will spend a large part of your single years dreaming of the one guy who will make it easy for you to be submissive. Players use this to help along the process in virtually every encounter they have. Breaking Rapport and Qualification (see my comment above) are two of the players most powerful tools. You will hear players talk about ‘Negs’ often. They are nothing more than a special kind of Break in Rapport. The trick to getting around this is traveling with friends you trust. The best protection you have against this is being submissive to your father. You need to have a strong man who loves you guiding you your entire life. I know this isn’t always possible, but if you have one and not a husband then do what your dad says. A distant second is a friend group you trust to keep you accountable. If you meet a man who gives you weird desires, tell someone with some common sense about them and listen to their advice. It’s not perfect, but it’s really the best you can do.

    2) The effect of a man physically touching you is very powerful on a psychological level. When a man touches you, it causes your body to produce oxytocin.

    http://ucsdnews.ucsd.edu/archive/newsrel/health/02-08LoveHormone.asp

    When a player (or any man for that matter) touches you, it has begun the mating process. You should guard yourself carefully against this as it is the major reason that players use kino. Kino is a very specific progression of physical touching that will amplify everything else that is happening in the interaction. They are PAIR BONDING with you!!!! They are setting you up to be an Alpha widow. I mean everything from a fist pump to a high five. For this, I’m going to quote the Bible and leave it at that.

    1 Corinthians 7:1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.

    3) Lastly, Ladies it is very important for you to realize that sex for you is a much longer and drawn out process.

    I’ll quote:
    http://www.netnanny.com/learn_center/article/169/

    “Each of these areas of response from women makes total sense when measured according to the structure of the female brain. The female brain is not organized so as to keep sex and the process leading up to climax in a separate, narrow mental compartment like the male brain does.

    A woman is exerting both sides of her brain when she starts into the funnel. She connects the process with a wider variety of emotional information against a background where relationships, communication, and emotional fulfillment are more important than the single, narrow event of climax.”

    Sex for you begins much earlier than even when you are in the bedroom. Sex begins with the setting up of a safe environment. Players who can get a one night lay (they are rare) are masters at setting up your internal mood in such a way that you have a completely safe and controlled but pleasurable environment so that you can feel secure while following them virtually anywhere. I have had a number of occasions, where a woman had a long interaction with me and she suddenly went doe eyed. If I had asked her to go home, she would have. Your emotions are very powerful and not entirely under your control. I honestly have no clue how to tell you to avoid this other than NEVER BE ALONE WITH A MAN WHO IS NOT YOUR FATHER, HUSBAND, OR CLOSE RELATIVE.

    For the men, on point 3. If you want sex that night, start a little earlier. When you get home, kiss her on the back of her neck and keep doing it for a while until she giggles, or tap her on the rear, and keep doing playful touchy things all night until bed time. I don’t get to do these things yet as I’m only engaged, but I will be doing them like a predator on the hunt once I’m married. She isn’t going to say yes at the last second, you have to lead her down the tunnel slowly as the environment and emotions are just as important as the climax in her view.

  208. Aremo

    Isn’t this like shouting into the wind? Not only are a super majority of women completely devoid of anything even approaching a chaste mindset any mention of such makes anyone a meany poo who is cruel, hates women, or whatever the shame word dejour is. The only time a woman cares about this is when she decides its time to get off the carousel and lock in a house, alimony, and child suport check.

    Women will not be interested in being chaste unless and until society once again severly punishes them for pre-marital sex. This hasn’t been the case and in fact such is celebrated as a fundamental right or even a responsibility to do it as young and as often as possible.

  209. Splashman

    Redneck01 wrote:

    Women are not going to teach themselves to not like men who are confident, touch them frequently, and neg them well, any more than a man could teach himself to not like youth and beauty.

    If your comment was in response to the point you thought SSM was making, you failed to comprehend her point, which she stated clearly in the OP and repeated ad nauseam in the comments to those who similarly demonstrated their lack of comprehension.

    If your comment was not in response to SSM, but was just out of the blue, why bother?

    [ssm: It's odd, isn't it? Sometimes people are like broken-records. It doesn't matter what the topic actually is or what I actually write. The only time this really bothers me is when I write a post geared toward encouraging women how to be the things that men here say they want: slim, feminine, good at traditional sex roles (cooking, nurturing, etc), chaste, submissive, serious about marriage, and their response is, "This will never work because there are no women anywhere like this! There are no women who want to be like this! Men's lives are terrible and unfair! But seriously, let's talk about how terrible and unfair men's lives are." Even in a post where I clearly state multiple times, "This post is aimed at young women who wish to marry and who wish to remain chaste and the goal is to help them figure out how to find a husband, rather than a boyfriend or a player, and to remain chaste while doing so.]

  210. redneck01

    You will hear players talk about ‘Negs’ often. They are nothing more than a special kind of Break in Rapport.

    Disagree. If a neg was a break in rapport, it could not function so well as an opener.

    You break rapport to punish a girl for undesirable behavior, so the break in rapport is only possible if you have rapport. A neg rewards a girl in a way that keeps her hungry for more of the reward, thereby giving you an opportunity to build rapport, a break in rapport penalizes a girl in ways that extinguish the unwanted behavior.

  211. Joseph of Jackson

    @redneck01

    Then you misunderstand the purpose of a break in rapport. A break in rapport is not meant to be a punishment. Certainly they could be used this way if you were so inclined, but that is far from their only use. Saying that you don’t like a band that a girl loves is a BR but not meant to be a punishment, but it is a BR.

    http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2009/02/10/the-neg-as-opener/

    “Looking back over the years on my many cold approaches, the more asshole-y my opener, the likelier I was to get the girl into bed. There’s just no getting around it — bold, EVEN OFFENSIVE, openers work best for cold approaches in competitive mating environments. (Day Game needs a subtler touch.) While “Hi” is a safe, all-purpose opener, it’s not high impact like the others; you’ve got to climb uphill from “Hi” to prove to the girl you aren’t like every other boring guy. With an edgy asshole opener, you’ve proven it from the first words out of your mouth. After an asshole cluster bomb rattles her beaver bunker, she’ll be much more receptive to your game.”

    I add the capital letters for emphasis. He is indeed using a rapport break out the gate, but quickly filling in the gap with comfort.

    Example:

    “ME: [walking up to girls after hanging back for a while] Do you know why you guys suck?
    GIRLS: [usually looking shocked] Excuse me!?
    ME: [smiling] Because you’ve been checking me out for ten minutes and you didn’t come over to say Hi. Bad manners. And a little creepy.”

    Negs are neither fully positive or fully negative. With direct game, rapport breaks are a great way to get past her shielding early as it creates a void that you will instantly fill with comfort and charm. This wasn’t a punishment, but she was offended and that is a break in rapport. The rapport was the base level comfort you have walking down the street and not feeling as though you are going to be attacked, but it is still comfort.

  212. lovelyleblanc7

    Listen to JoJ’s advice, especially this one ” I honestly have no clue how to tell you to avoid this other than NEVER BE ALONE WITH A MAN WHO IS NOT YOUR FATHER, HUSBAND, OR CLOSE RELATIVE.”
    ^This. x1000

  213. hoellenhund2

    “The best way to avoid players is by meeting men in your social circle and avoiding men you don’t know or your friends don’t know. This way you can get to know a man, or your friends can tell you of a man’s reputation. You also learn if he is a player or looking for a relationship.”

    This happens to be the normal behavior of young Italian women, even those from the North. Just saying. And it’s normal behavior because it’s a foolproof way to avoi becoming a slut.

  214. earl

    “I’m one of the men that blames the beta chump husband as much as the cheating wife. Different sins, different levels of culpability, still sinning. But then, I got ripped on last time I said I blame men who’s wives divorced them for allowing their wives into situations where they’d be tempted (bad church, bad friends, girls nights out, not having leadership, not providing, not leading, not being a man). But then, maybe I’m just a judgmental asshole and reading all of the Bible wrong where God says that men should LEAD.”

    Like I said…men have rationalization hamsters too. They don’t like it when you attack theirs either.

  215. Ton

    Ahhhh the neg debate…..

    Pick pro monogamy female friends….. might as well ask the Easter Bunny to bring her a man

    Here’s a catch 22, a man is going to have 0 success with women until.women are interchangeable.

  216. Ton

    Good question Earl; my answer is
    You escape the engagement with your dignity, prosperity and soul intact. The legal conditions make an actual victory and end to hostilities unlikely

  217. girlwithadragonflytattoo

    I love your blog. It’s funny I agree with you and with Rollo Tomassi’s comment even though they seem to be at odds :) Men need game, they really do… in order to live the best life for themselves. And women need to avoid players that only want to use them. Key words: only want to use them.

    Both sexes have to look out for that… being used. Love it Sunshine! Love your blog!

    [ssm: Thank you for the kind words.]

  218. deti

    Elspeth: “I don’t mean to be snarky but I frankly get sick of being told how eeeeaaaasy it is for my daughter to be married if she really wanted to be and that she isn’t because she is either a bitch, ugly, fat or too interested in “having fun” or building a career to be bothered.”

    Lovely: “Thank you Elspeth. Some people just think that any chaste, Christian, girl has marriage proposals falling on her lap left and right.”

    Since I was about 14 years old, I have had only to go about my day, and walk around in the world, to see that any woman could get pretty much what she wanted from men, on her timetable. If she wanted dates, sex, flings, ONSs, LTRs or husbands, she could get them. Again, it took no special effort on my part to look for this or figure it out. Simple day to day observation. It is this way literally everywhere – at school, at church, at activities, at clubs, at college, at grad school, at my places of employment – EVERYWHERE. Even Chad has noticed that he is interested in marriage; but many of the women he’s met are not interested in getting married, at least not yet.

    Denise: “Also, I’ve found on here that men tend to excuse/justify their own pickiness while criticizing it in women.”

    Ummm, no.

    Men are attracted to roughly half (and usually more) of the women they interact with on any given day. Women are attracted to around 10 to 20%. I cannot tell you how many times Susan Walsh at HUS would constantly tell women to change their attraction triggers. Never worked. Every other commenter was some nice girl saying she had met this guy, but, well, he was, just so….BETA, and therefore icky, and you could hear the disattraction dripping off the pixels.

    So you’re simply wrong about that, Denise.

  219. Farm Boy

    I have to agree with Deti. If you are a young chick and non-fat, then you are good-to-go. Even if you are fat, you can still get something.

  220. sunshinemary Post author

    That’s odd, there are several pretty, nice, not-fat virgins who would like to be married who comment here. Elspeth has two pretty, nice, not-fat virgin daughters who are of age. None of these girls is over 30. Most of them are under 25. I know girls like this IRL (except I don’t know about the virgin part because that’s not a socially-appropriate question to ask someone).

    I always hear from men that all women who are 5.5s and above have men raining from the sky on bended knee, rings in hand. The reality that I’m hearing from the girls around me looks different.

  221. Athor Pel

    “femininebutnotfeminist February 13, 2014 at 9:02 pm

    when I’m not in my work clothes (scrubbs)

    If it were true that we have it so easy then I would have been married off long ago.

    Time spent looking is just as important as the stage setting. Opportunity cost applies to anything that takes time. If you’re doing something that takes up an inordinate amount of time, like going to medical school or doing long shifts in a hospital, then you by definition cannot be doing something else.

    I should know, I’ve spent many years NOT looking for a wife or any women at all really.

    What state do you live in? If you live in Texas I will ask more questions.

  222. jack

    There is only one perfect filter to screen out the difference between a guy who is perfect for you and a player:

    No premarital sex. It is the only foolproof means. The player will always be revealed by this method, and sooner rather than later.

    The player will push for sex. The good man will push for marriage (eventually). Because he wants to bed you even MORE than the player does, because he is willing to make you his last, not his next.

  223. deti

    I don’t think it’s the men who are too picky.

    Over at Cail’s, Els noted her daughter got asked out, but it was by some boy who seemed nice, but he wore saggy pants. So E turned up her nose at that boy, just because there’s one thing about him she doesn’t much like.

    Now, if a girl doesn’t like a boy, and rejects him (or mom rejects him) because he has ONE THING she doesn’t like about him, that’s fine. But it is not accurate or factual to complain that there are “no men” interested in her.

    As usual, there ARE men interested. It’s just that SHE’s not interested.

  224. deti

    “No premarital sex. It is the only foolproof means. The player will always be revealed by this method, and sooner rather than later.”

    Jack, you’re a big meanie, you are. That’s too difficult. Like you’re telling them to “just get it”. Or something.

    [ssm: The entire point of my post, which you are so critical of, is helping young women who want to remain chaste and find a husband to avoid getting into tempting situations. If you read Donal's essay above, Confessions of a “Good Christian Girl, you will see that even a girl who has good intentions can be tempted. Anyone can be tempted. If you are naive, it is particularly easy to be tempted and to fall into sin with someone who is very skilled at seduction. You seem to object to Donal and me trying to teach girls what to watch out for so they don't get into a situation like that. I'm just baffled by your response here.

    You want girls to remain chaste and you don't want anyone to give them practical advice on avoiding situations where they would be tempted by sexual sin. Is it the case that you simply wish to complain about women without actually doing anything to help the ones who are willing to be helped?]

  225. Farm Boy

    I always hear from men that all women who are 5.5s and above have men raining from the sky on bended knee, rings in hand

    A bit of a strawman there, I would think.

  226. Farm Boy

    Elspeth has two pretty, nice, not-fat virgin daughters who are of age

    I can’t help but wonder if Elspeth and her daughters are looking for a fella that measures up to dad.

  227. Denise

    Deti said: “Men are attracted to roughly half (and usually more) of the women they interact with on any given day. Women are attracted to around 10 to 20%. I cannot tell you how many times Susan Walsh at HUS would constantly tell women to change their attraction triggers. Never worked. Every other commenter was some nice girl saying she had met this guy, but, well, he was, just so….BETA, and therefore icky, and you could hear the disattraction dripping off the pixels.

    So you’re simply wrong about that, Denise.”

    Saying “So you’re simply wrong about that,” matter-of-factly doesn’t make it true. Men likewise can find *some* woman to marry if they “change their attraction triggers.” My point was that men view their own cutoffs as non-negotiable, whatever those cutoffs may be, which might not track at all with what they have to offer.

    Furthermore, there are very few men who cannot get *any* date. From *my* observations, if that is the case, there is usually a reason. Focusing on women being too picky deflects needed self-relfection. You say you observe. Well look around at Wal-Mart, the church, the park, wherever. Most of the men you see who are married or in relationships are average, a bit above or a bit below. If what you said were true, that women were only attracted to 10-20% of men, then only 10-20% of men would be in relationships of any kind. Obviously that’s false, as the majority of men date and get married. This isn’t even something that we have to debate, as it doesn’t rely upon opinion. Most men are in relationships. Most men find the opportunity to have sex without having to marry the woman. And most men get married. Not only most, as in over 50%, but the great majority. So to attribute a fraction of men not being able to have what they want to women only being attracted to 10-20% of men misses the reality that presents itself every day.

  228. deti

    “Well look around at Wal-Mart, the church, the park, wherever. Most of the men you see who are married or in relationships are average, a bit above or a bit below.”

    Most of the women with those men, settled for those men, a fact I am sure those men are reminded of periodically. Those men are aware subconsciously, even if not overtly, that they weren’t wifey’s first, or second, or even tenth, choice.

    Those marriages – indeed, MOST marriages – from female standpoints have much less to do with attraction, affinity and affection, and much more to do with Alpha F*cks, Beta Bucks realities. SSM’s marriage to HHG and Elspeth’s marriage to SAM are extreme, extreme outliers. Most women simply don’t talk about their husbands, gushing with praise and oozing with attraction, as they do.

  229. Farm Boy

    Saying “So you’re simply wrong about that,” matter-of-factly doesn’t make it true.

    In this case, it actually is true. The most famous example is the OKCupid study that showed that from women’s viewpoints, 80% of men were below average in looks.

    Hypergamy has been unleashed; and since it is natural for women, and it is everywhere now, then it must have been the way things always were and forever will be.

    If hypergamy was allowed to run rampant in the time that my parents met, then I would not exist. My dad was a nice guy beta. And a good dad. Much better than some thug.

  230. deti

    Denise, something I’ve learned personally and from many, many other men is this:

    The mere fact that a woman agrees to marry a man does NOT necessarily mean she is sexually attracted to that man, does NOT necessarily mean she loves that man; indeed, does NOT necessarily mean she respects or even likes him.

  231. Hipster Racist

    @deti

    any woman could get pretty much what she wanted from men, on her timetable. If she wanted dates, sex, flings, ONSs, LTRs or husbands, she could get them. Again, it took no special effort on my part to look for this or figure it out

    I agree that most young women are not particularly interested in marriage these days, but you are way, way overstating the case. Things are much more equal that you are making them out to be.

    There’s this woman I see around every once in a while. She’s smart, funny, sweet, and would be attractive except she’s about 20 pounds overweight. If I wanted to, I could romance this women and marry her in six months, I’d bet money on it. I could likely seduce her. So, according to your logic, I could get married whenever I want.

    Sure, most women could probably find an ugly, unattractive, overweight man, romance him, and get a ring out of it. But so could most men if they set their standards low enough.

    Men are attracted to roughly half (and usually more) of the women they interact with on any given day.

    You must have really, really, really low standards. I would guess I’m attracted to roughly 20% of women I see, at best, and I live in a major urban area that has no shortage of attractive, twenty-something white women. I’m not bad looking but I’m no George Clooney.

    Women are attracted to around 10 to 20%.

    So, roughly the same as me.

    So you’re simply wrong about that, Denise.

    So you’re simply wrong about that, Deti.

    I absolutely believe what Elspeth, LLB, FNF, Chris, and others have said. As SSM has said many times, things are different than they were just 10 or 15 years ago – a lot different. One thing that seems really obvious is that porn is taking a lot of the lower quality men right off the market. These guys might otherwise be with an unattractive and overweight woman, but it’s easier just to watch porn (considering the serious risks of marriage for men, many just aren’t interested.)

    A lot of women just aren’t getting proposals. As Dalrock has said, some of it is certainly their fault, as they are not “signaling” an interest in marriage, but consider that they feel it would make them seem desperate, thus, unattractive. Women are surely hypergamous, but a lot of this is the breakdown of any social support for young marriage. It’s difficult for women to be up front about wanting marriage, because it goes against the script. You’re not supposed to want a husband – you’re supposed to get swept off your feet first, THEN start thinking about marriage.

    This is exactly what Dalrock has said, that instead of marriage being the place to pursue romance and sex, romance is the place to pursue marriage and sex.

    Sure, you may say I’m an “alpha” or something, but my ex-girlfriend would likely laugh heartily at such a description.

    ssm: I agree with you about porn. I think it has reduced the drive guys on the lower end (4-6) have to find a real-life woman. I think it’s much more detrimental than most people realize, and here is where I can say something nice about PUAs – they tend to encourage men to lay off the porn usage and self-gratification. Not for moral reasons, of course, but because it is rather unhealthy and demotivating and it’s easy to get hooked on compulsive usage. Here is a rather horrifying study to contemplate:

    Cambridge University: Brain scans find porn addiction

  232. feeriker

    I have to agree with Deti. If you are a young chick and non-fat, then you are good-to-go. Even if you are fat, you can still get something.

    Cosign both Farmboy and Deti.

  233. Denise

    @deti | Many people settle. But your assumption that they are unhappy with their husbands is a projection onto their relationship. I know plenty of happy women who are married to men they respect and are happy with who would not be considered “alphas.” You seem to start with your opinion and then shoehorn facts into your interpretation. You don’t actually know whether the women you see settled or how they feel about their marriages. But you insist on reading that into what you see.

  234. sunshinemary Post author

    gushing with praise

    Our husbands are not extreme outliers, and I don’t want to get into another discussion about that, but let me say that Elspeth and I have taken extreme criticism for encouraging women to gush with praise for their husbands. We both praise our husbands consciously, as an example to young women, and encourage all women to meditate upon their own husbands’ excellent qualities.

    It’s not that our husbands are perfect – well, I don’t know about Elspeth’s, but mine isn’t. He has his traits that sometimes make me grit my teeth; can there possibly be a person alive who doesn’t have such traits? But I’ve chosen to focus solely on the things I love and respect about him because not only does it make me happier when I focus on what I love rather than what bothers me, but it also has a positive impact on him to have an admiring wife.

    For doing this, we have been rewarded by other women writing frankly quite horrible (and untrue) things about us using innuendo to suggest that we actually don’t like our husbands and are just bragging to try to make ourselves feel better and to make other women jealous.

    Yes, friends, that is how horrid the female herd can be. Encouraging one another to find fault with their men and gossiping about women who refuse to do so.

  235. deti

    @ SSM:

    “You seem to object to Donal and me trying to teach girls what to watch out for so they don’t get into a situation like that. I’m just baffled by your response here.

    “You want girls to remain chaste and you don’t want anyone to give them practical advice on avoiding situations where they would be tempted by sexual sin. Is it the case that you simply wish to complain about women without actually doing anything to help the ones who are willing to be helped?”

    No, I don’t object to your doing any such thing. I just don’t think it’s as complex or involved as you think it is.

    I’m not just “complaining”. I offered something very practical and very easy to understand. “Keep your legs shut”.

    [ssm: Did you not read Joseph of Jackson's responses to you upthread? I'm in agreement with him.]

    OK, I’ll head off now.

  236. Farm Boy

    But your assumption that they are unhappy with their husbands is a projection onto their relationship.

    So who initiates frivorces? Perhaps you could ask Jenny Erikson about that.

  237. deti

    “You don’t actually know whether the women you see settled or how they feel about their marriages.”

    All one has to do is observe how they treat their husbands. Public disrespect. Publicly overruling their husbands on matters of money and child discipline. Breaking bad and trash talking their husbands. Gossiping about their husbands. Public browbeating. Posting crap about husbands on social media.

    And that’s AT CHURCH. And that’s at a store. And that’s these wives’ PUBLIC behavior. Can one imagine what goes on behind closed doors?

    SSM, I absolutely believe you and Elspeth when you talk about how great your husbands are. I believe it 100%. But most marriages aren’t like that. Not at all.

    [ssm: Thank you, but the point isn't that our husbands are unusually great. My husband is a normal man. That means any marriage where the woman is critical and fault-finding is one in which the woman is choosing to look at the empty part of the glass. That's why I encourage women to stop doing that and start looking at the great things about their husbands. This is a conscious choice. I don't praise my husband because he's just so exceptional (though in my eyes he is) that I can't refrain from praising him, and no other woman should refrain from praising her husband because he isn't objectively exceptional. We mostly choose whether we will be happy and content or critical and dissatisfied, and I'm trying to encourage women to choose to be happy and content.

    I don't know if "most marriages aren't like that", but they should be like that if wives are doing their job as supportive helpers.]

  238. feeriker

    As usual, there ARE men interested. It’s just that SHE’s not interested.

    What I said upthread about hamster-slaying and its chances of success (down there with putting leashes on octopi).

  239. Farm Boy

    Yes, friends, that is how horrid the female herd can be. Encouraging one another to find fault with their men and gossiping about women who refuse to do so.

    Perhaps you should check out Dalrocks post, “The Whispers”.

  240. Lee Lee Bug

    The mere fact that a woman agrees to marry a man does NOT necessarily mean she is sexually attracted to that man, does NOT necessarily mean she loves that man; indeed, does NOT necessarily mean she respects or even likes him.

    This may happen in countries where arranged marriages are common, but I’m sure it’s rare in the U.S. An exception might be a young gold digger who marries an older sugar daddy for provision, but not many women are beautiful enough to pull this off.

    Think about it. IRL how many of your friends/family members are married to women who aren’t attracted to them? Most people, including Christians, have premarital sex these days. If there’s no physical attraction, the relationship is dead in the water before a marriage could take place.

    Also, just because a woman doesn’t want to be intimate with her husband, doesn’t mean she’s not attracted to him. Some women have low sex drives. Others have sexual hangups. Many are too exhausted from working full-time and caring for a home and children to even think about sex at the end of the day. If a woman doesn’t want to have sex with her husband, chances are she won’t want to have sex with the pool boy either.

  241. Cicero

    Even though I think that the intentions of this type of “what to look out for” is helpful in gaining information it will not change a single issue until one thing happens first.
    The individual takes personal responsibility.
    And living in a world of instant gratification, short sighted views, emotional roller coasters, passing the blame and wanting a quick fix for any repercussions. Nothing given here will be taken for it true worth.
    And any Christian girl ( and Christian guy as well when the roles are reversed) will most likely know this already and will not find herself in the position a player requires to play his game.
    And a girl (or guy if the roles are reversed) who finds herself in the position that a player requires to play his game will most likely not want to take personal responsibility for her Free choice any way.

  242. deti

    @ Hipster:

    “You must have really, really, really low standards. I would guess I’m attracted to roughly 20% of women I see, at best,”

    What can I say? I’m very, very easy to please. Most men don’t see sexual attraction the way you do; most men see most women as at least minimally sexually attractive. Perhaps not ideal, but adequate. That’s a good thing. If the opposite were the case, and you have only the top 20% or so pairing off, then ….

    Wait….

    Never mind.

    “A lot of women just aren’t getting proposals.”

    Most women not getting marriage proposals are making it quite clear they’re not interested in marriage. A slut who sleeps around and giving up the goods to every Tom, Dick and Harry who wants them is making it clear she’s about sex and fun and good times, not marriage. They can get dates, they can get men interested in them. Most men can’t get women interested in them. At all.

  243. deti

    “Think about it. IRL how many of your friends/family members are married to women who aren’t attracted to them? Most people, including Christians, have premarital sex these days. If there’s no physical attraction, the relationship is dead in the water before a marriage could take place.”

    Disagree. Probably around half or a little more of the couples I know, there’s no attraction. I know this either through the guy telling me, or through my observation. I think this usually happens one of two ways: (1) Pure beta bucks chasing; or more commonly (2) there was a small amount of attraction there pre-marriage, enough for her hamster to work with to justify AFBB. Then after marriage, she loses attraction for whatever reason; usually because he continues his beta behavior.

    And don’t tell me that a woman doesn’t marry a man if she feels no attraction for him. Exhibit A: I give you Jenny Erikson.

    “Also, just because a woman doesn’t want to be intimate with her husband, doesn’t mean she’s not attracted to him. Some women have low sex drives. Others have sexual hangups. Many are too exhausted from working full-time and caring for a home and children to even think about sex at the end of the day. If a woman doesn’t want to have sex with her husband, chances are she won’t want to have sex with the pool boy either.”

    If she were attracted to him, she’d crawl over broken glass to have sex with him. I’ve never known a woman who was attracted to her husband where her low sex drive, hangups, or fatigue interfered with their sex life.

  244. lauratheringmistress

    Okay, for those unconvinced that such advice is needed, let me pull out an example.

    I have a homeschooling friend whose 16 year old daughter is taking classes at the local college. Being a friendly, outgoing girl, she gave her phone number to guys who asked for it. And then they wouldn’t. Stop. Texting. Her.

    This girl is fair young to be married, and not at all interested in casual dating. She begged her parents for help to stop the barrage of interest.

    Now I’m sure some of you are going to see this as proof that girls have no problem getting attention, but it was the wrong kind. Give her 2 or 3 years and she might be open to courting a guy who shares her religion, but she is interested in chaste relationships, not hookups.

    What neither her, nor her mother, knew was that you don’t give your phone number to guys. Not when you’re casual acquaintances. And her mom thought these guys were interested in a romantic relationship. Um, no. Based on the description, they were following textbook fishing for hookups, going after the cute friendly young thing on campus.

    Assume this advice is for women in their late teens. Women who want to get married. Women who are naive and lack worldly wisdom. It’s for the girls in my husband’s freshman class who tarted themselves up to go clubbing and then were confused when the guys who hit on them seemed to be interested in sex. They were intent of remaining virgins until marriage, went dancing because it was fun, wore the clothes they did because it was “what you wear”, and couldn’t understand why they are sending off all kinds of mixed signals.

    You have no idea how clueless and sheltered some people are.

  245. Ton

    OkCould the difficulties be an issue of race? The numbers for black girls marrying look plain horrible, and what I have seen from the posts here are young black girls who do not want to marry outside their race having difficulty. Doesn’t seem like fit and sweet black girls have any problem finding men if they date outside their race. Course I totally understand not wanting to as well.

    Also if you don’t like your hunting grounds, change markets. Ladies if you are looking for a younger man White man, reasonably fit, with a decent paying job that commands respect among most men, head on down to your nearest military town. FT Bragg has ( last I checked) almost 30k men who fit that description

  246. Pingback: Women Who Don't Love Men - runsonmagic

  247. Deep Strength

    @ Deti

    I think the problem lies in the fact that most of the women are in circles of people where there is very little divorce and not that much marital dissatisfaction. This would likely be the top 20% of marriages — and as you know like people hang around like.

    I exist in an area where there is very little divorce, but there is a lot of marital unhappiness.

    The men in the manosphere tend to be in areas where there is a lot of marital unhappiness and a lot of divorce. You may have read the studies where it shows divorce is contagious because the attitude of unhappiness is contageous as well.

    Basically, it’s a similar version of the apex fallacy. Women only see what they are around.

    However, I do think there is middle ground. I’ve continued to assert that the current social climate is really horrendous for almost all men except the 9s and 10s and all females. The ones hardest hit are those who are <5-6 SMV/MMV.

    [ssm: I've read the studies about divorce being contagious. Perhaps that is why divorce used to result in the divorcees being socially ostracized.]

  248. Farm Boy

    Women who are naive and lack worldly wisdom.

    At least they have a chance to get some experience. Many fellas are stuck in the on-deck circle.

  249. Farm Boy

    Based on the description, they were following textbook fishing for hookups

    Most young women today are sluts (at least from the Catholic Church definition). It is an understood fact. So men operate on it. It is unfortunate, but it is what women as a whole wanted; a chance to maximize the power of their youth.

    NAWALT

  250. deti

    @ SSM:

    “Thank you, but the point isn’t that our husbands are unusually great. My husband is a normal man.”

    *Sigh* “Normal” is not the same thing as “average”.

  251. Ton

    Also young girls who want to marry young will probably have to expand the age of men they will consider upward. By a good margin

    If a girl wants to keep a man she puts out. She will go to crazy lengths to be with him. Like wanting to drive through snow and ice for 3 hours to spend 14 hours with him. The idea wives who do not put put are attracted to their husbands is beyond silly. With a 50% divorce rate an the numbers o low sex/ no sex marriages the idea most women are not attracted to their husband has strong merit.

  252. Hipster Racist

    Well, one good thing about the manosphere, Christian and non. Here I thought I was just an average joe, but I come to find out I’m a freaking STUD, an Alpha Male in the top 20% of men. A Player. A PUA.

    I thought I was just a (former) slut, honestly.

    Hipster Racist, all ALPHA, baby!

  253. deti

    @ LauraTRM:

    “ And then they wouldn’t. Stop. Texting. Her.”

    LOL. Nonstop texting = betaboy. Those guys wouldn’t have known what to do with her even if she had reciprocated.

  254. Laguna Beach Fogey

    The problem with this post is that it sounds as if it could have been written by a feminist.

    [ssm: I don't follow you. Donal Graeme is a strict Catholic man and I am quite against feminism. How is it feministic to advise women to avoid fornication and to stay out of tempting situations? How is it feministic to encourage women to look for husbands when they are young and chaste? The very idea of that being feminist advice is absurd. Please link to some feminist source that encourages women to do these things so that I may add them to my blogroll as the one decent feminist source of advice for women.]

  255. deti

    “If a girl wants to keep a man she puts out. She will go to crazy lengths to be with him. Like wanting to drive through snow and ice for 3 hours to spend 14 hours with him. The idea wives who do not put out are attracted to their husbands is beyond silly. With a 50% divorce rate an the numbers o low sex/ no sex marriages the idea most women are not attracted to their husband has strong merit.”

    Word. It’s patently ABSURD to suggest that a wife who’s attracted to her husband won’t have sex with him because of fatigue, low sex drive or hangups. That’s ridiculous. A wife who’s not putting out for her husband is refusing sex because of lack of attraction. Period. Full stop.

    As Ton points out, you have documented cases of women driving 3 hours in crappy weather to spend14 hours with men they ARE attracted to. We have women risking everything to have extramarital affairs with men they are attracted to.

    [ssm: I would say in general this is true when looking at the big picture, but what about the scenario where his sex drive is just higher than hers? I would be okay with twice a week; he'd rather 4 times per week. I don't stop being attracted to him on the other two days, it's just that his drive is somewhat higher than mine. On a more extreme scale, what if she has such a low drive that she only feels sexual one or two days a month? It is theoretically possible for her to find her husband attractive but just not be interested in sex. Sex drive exists along a continuum for both males and females.

    But in general, I would have to say that if she's never interested in sex with her husband, she really probably isn't very attracted to him.]

  256. feeriker

    Hipster said There’s this woman I see around every once in a while. She’s smart, funny, sweet, and would be attractive except she’s about 20 pounds overweight. If I wanted to, I could romance this women and marry her in six months, I’d bet money on it. I could likely seduce her. So, according to your logic, I could get married whenever I want.

    The good news for the lovely lady you describe is that there are hordes of other eligible men out there who, if she really is as you describe (very big caveat there), would not hesitate for a second to date her with a goal of marriage in mind and who would not be put off in the least by 20 extra pounds (20 pounds? Seriously? How the heck would that even be noticeable on a woman today in The Land of Gargantuan Landwhales?). Look, if the Biafran Famine Victim look in a woman’s body is what turns you on (chacun a son gout), that’s fine, but no small number of us would be willing to overlook a few extra pounds in a woman who is the polar opposite of the dour, snide, man-hating, self-centered entitlement beeyotch that is the norm today.

    As I’ve said before (not sure if I’ve said it here) a woman could look like a supermodel and at first glance I’d be attracted to her as any normal human male would. Yet all she has to do is open her mouth and reveal herself to possess the characteristics of “the norm” I just described and she instantly becomes what might as well be the Elephant Man’s twin sister in my eyes, a repulsive creature I wouldn’t touch with a 50-foot pole or with some other man’s private parts. I know I can’t possibly be the only man out there with these kinds of standards.

    So concerning the lovely lady you describe, Hipster – I’m assuming she’s single, from your description. If so, the reason she still is single would have to be one or more of the following factors we’ve already pounded to death in the ‘sphere:

    1. She’s not clearly signalling IOIs to men to whom she’s attracted (she might not know how to do this [girl game]).

    2. She’s not responding to or picking up on IOIs from men who are attracted to her (she might not know how to do this [girl game]).

    3. She’s shy/hesitant when it comes to dating.

    4. She’s signalling, consciously or not, that she’s not interested in dating and/or marriage.

    5. Her expectations of/standards for a man she would date/marry are stratospherically unrealistic, or…

    ….perhaps, just maybe:

    6. She isn’t really the lovely flower you perceive her to be (or the image she fronts in public), that her real personality is closer to today’s female norm than she’s willing to admit and that every decent man she’s ever dated has discovered this and saved himself before it was too late.

    Sure, most women could probably find an ugly, unattractive, overweight man, romance him, and get a ring out of it. But so could most men if they set their standards low enough.

    Again, if the lovely lady you describe is really what she seems, she won’t HAVE TO “settle” for an ugly, unattractive, overweight man (see number 5 above, which, contrary to what some misinformed and misguided souls around here believe, DOES NOT mean “settling” for “unattractive).

  257. Elspeth

    Total misrepresentation of my comments at Cail’s, Deti. Butt crack dude was actually not the guy who asked out my daughter. And the notion that men aren’t picky? Preposterous.

  258. Michelle

    Lee Lee Bug,
    You said: “Also, just because a woman doesn’t want to be intimate with her husband, doesn’t mean she’s not attracted to him. Some women have low sex drives. Others have sexual hangups. Many are too exhausted from working full-time and caring for a home and children to even think about sex at the end of the day.”

    I have been pregnant or breastfeeding for all but a few months of the last decade. There was a period of time that I felt I was just too tired for intimacy, that my hormones must be too out of wack from breastfeeding to have a sex drive, that it just wasn’t reasonable to expect to recreate those feelings I had for my husband in the beginning.

    These were all lies. Once I fully submitted to my husband, attraction and “tingles” were not a problem anymore. Our marriage was never completely devoid of intimacy, but there was little enthusiasm on my part. I often made my husband feel that his conjugal rights were an inconvenient imposition on my time and energy. I truly believed it was just because I was so tired; I wasn’t willfully sinning, but It was sin even so. There is no nice way to say it. Sexual hangups are usually due to past sexual sin and low sex drives are usually due to a lack of submission.

    I’m breastfeeding our fifth child right now, he’s three months old, and I can say with all honesty that my desire for my husband is greater than when we were dating. If a woman is having difficulties in this area, she needs to pray for God to reveal and heal the problem.

  259. Hipster Racist

    @deti

    most men see most women as at least minimally sexually attractive. Perhaps not ideal, but adequate. That’s a good thing. If the opposite were the case, and you have only the top 20% or so pairing off, then

    OK Deti, I’m trying to make a honest effort to understand you here. So the idea is that the top 20% of men and women are attracted to each other, and the bottom 80% of men and women are attracted to the top 20% as well. But the 80% of men would “settle” for the 80% of women, but the 80% of women won’t “settle” for anything other than the top 20%?

    SSM has asked this question before, if much of the problem is that ugly people just aren’t attracted to each other. My article “It’s not men vs. women it’s beautiful vs. ugly” touched on this issue. I think there’s some truth to it.

    But really, there are a lot of desperate lonely women out there. Yes, women are hypergamous – no doubt – but men aren’t dying to pair off with ugly girls either. I’ve known plenty of “beta orbiters” pining away for the hot girl and not giving women in their league the time of day. It really does work both ways.

    But then again, I’m an Alpha Stud, who has left a trail of broken hearts and alpha widows in my wake, so I guess I just can’t empathize with the ugly betas.

    @Athor Pel

    What state do you live in? If you live in Texas I will ask more questions.

    Buzz off, Arthor, I found her first. Do you know how rare it is to find an INFJ?

    FNF, sweetie, I don’t care where you live, I’ll move you. Seriously, email me. INFJ is my perfect match. We would get along great.

  260. Bike Bubba

    I can’t help but wonder if Elspeth and her daughters are looking for a fella that measures up to dad.

    I can’t speak for Elspeth, but as the dad of four daughters, i’m praying for young men to come along who have genuine faith in Christ as evidenced by church participation and service, a discernible work ethic, and basic behavior as an adult, including some basic attention to appearance. If your underwear is always visible because you don’t own any pants that fit, and you cover up that fact by not tucking in your shirt, and then don’t bother combing your hair, you’re saying something about how you’re going to treat other people. Hence you are not welcome around my daughters or sons. Is that so darned complicated?

    And apart from homeschoolers, I’m not seeing young men like this. Or, for that matter, not too many young ladies. It’s pretty sad.

  261. Farm Boy

    And the notion that men aren’t picky? Preposterous.

    In terms of appearances, they are less picky. Perhaps in terms of “is this a person who is going to frivorce me down the road”, they might be very picky.

  262. jack

    The beauty of no-sex-before-marriage is that it is a PRINCIPLE that can be applied regardless of feelings or temptations or circumstances.

    News flash:

    Young ladies, you cannot trust your feelings. You cannot trust his intentions. You cannot know whether he really likes you AND wants sex, or just wants sex. Maybe he THINKS he likes you, but after sex the “magic” will be gone.

    The principle works so well because it does not require you to analyze, think, maneuver, manipulate, or ponder.

    It is a simple test, and while not always foolproof, it is as close to perfect as can be had.

    If he is willing to commit to you legally and financially prior to getting the goodies, then you know he sees you as so much more than just a fun bed-buddy.

    And if SHE is willing to forgo the ability to exercise her sexual power, and is willing to have hotter men (than you) reject her because she won’t be a sexual plaything, then you know she has a realistic idea of her worth.

    If male 8s approach her and reject her because she won’t put out, she either has to play the harlot and buy their temporary attention with sex, or be HUMBLED into realizing what her relationship value is.

    And if a young man is willing to allow himself to be legally committed to her, and is willing to suffer 6-12 months of celibacy for the privilege, then she can be confident that he is actually in love with her.

    There was one girl I would have waited two years for. She was something.

  263. Athor Pel

    “Cicero February 14, 2014 at 1:49 pm
    @ Hipster Racist:
    The hard ones to find are INTJs”

    What’s funny is, on the web readers self select and at certain websites a greater than normal percentage are INTJ/INTP. I know it’s that way over at Vox’s place. We’ve done informal polling in the comments, ridiculously high percentage of INTJ’s. And since I’m INTJ I fit right in, not that I care to fit in, but you get the idea.

    Bunch of introverts talking at or past one another, can be hilarious sometimes.

    (long pause)

    Now get off my lawn.

  264. deti

    @ Hipster:

    “But the 80% of men would “settle” for the 80% of women, but the 80% of women won’t “settle” for anything other than the top 20%?”

    You’ve got the right idea. The percentages are off, but you’re on the right track.

    I think it’s more like the bottom 80% of men would accept the next 40 to 50% “down” from the top 20%. So if the 9s and 10s of each sex are at the “top”, then men would take the 4s on up, or the 5s on up. Is that ideal? Perfect? Hardly. But it is adequate, it is “good enough”. And for most men, “good enough” is as good as it gets. Most men don’t get what they want; they take what they can get and are happy with it. They’re more than happy to lock in a reasonably attractive woman for partnership, marriage and (most importantly) licit sex.

    Most women don’t get what they want either. In stark contrast, they take what they can get at age 25 or 26 or so, and become progressively more miserable with it.

    There are many lonely women out there, but I don’t see them as desperate. What I see is them “holding out” for Mr. Big, Mr.Perfect McDreamy, or hoping to domesticate Alpha McGorgeous and F*ckbuddy Rockbanddrummer, and turning away men in their leagues. I see men “in their leagues” asking those middling value women (HB 4-7) out, or to hang out, All. The. Time. And I see those men getting blown off, rejected, and noses turned up at them. As I have said many times, I know a lot of good quality men who are fit and have jobs who can’t even get Susie SundaySchoolTeacher or Sally Secretary or Ellen ElementarySchoolTeacher to go get a drink with them. I see quite average women rejecting those SMV peer men and demanding male 9s and 10s for themselves.

  265. Bike Bubba

    Hipster, you may be a “repented” slut, but your comments here and your blog do not give that impression. Consider my spidey senses tingling on this one.

    I had another thought, as I read through some of the things Rollo and JOJ linked, that what’s really going on with the PUAs is that they’re taking a little bit of masculinity and mixing it with a lot of the psychological tactics that an aggressive salesman or CIA interrogator will use. The goal is to use a kernel of attraction, but lump it in with a lot of confusion and disorientation–that’s what the combination of artful negative statements, touch, and the like are.

    So if the PUA game is really more about manipulation than attraction, how do you deal with that? You protect your kids, sure, but just as important is to convey to them how important it is to test the things that are being said. Do it at church with the sermon–change churches if the pastor’s words don’t match Scripture. Do it while watching TV or listening to the radio–“is this claim for this car plausible?” Definitely do it when a politician is speaking.

    And with a habit of discernment, they’ll have a much better chance of seeing through that PUA. “Pants don’t fit, shirt not tucked in, hair grease, what does this guy do for a living, touched me again, talking to me WAY to familiarly at this point in the conversation, touched me AGAIN, SLAP, I’m out of here.”

  266. deti

    Elspeth:

    My apologies. The boy who asked out your daughter was unacceptable because he was an atheist.

    Buttcrack boy was clearly attracted to your daughter, else he wouldn’t have nearly broken his neck craning it so as to catch glimpses of her. But because of his attire, he too is unacceptable.

    The relentless pursuit of perfection.

  267. feeriker

    Ton asked OkCould the difficulties be an issue of race? The numbers for black girls marrying look plain horrible, and what I have seen from the posts here are young black girls who do not want to marry outside their race having difficulty. Doesn’t seem like fit and sweet black girls have any problem finding men if they date outside their race. Course I totally understand not wanting to as well.

    Ton, this one of those “radioactive waste” topics that everyone usually stays as far away from as possible, but since I’m already contaminated with lethal levels, I have nada to lose and will therefore dive in without protective clothing.

    As a white man married to a black woman for going on 30 years, I’ve gained a somewhat rare (though not unique) perspective) on this issue. Let me just issue a caveat first that the points I’m about to make are from feeriker’s personal perspective only and ate not meant to speak for anyone else. As to the points you bring up:

    – Marriage is about the farthest thing from most young black women’s minds today, whether they call themselves Christian or not. Much of this due to the state of the black family today (that is to say, about as close to non-existent as is sociologically possible for a developed society). Young black women today, especially those who are committed Christians, face a SERIOUS shortage of black men who are both marriageable AND committed Christ followers. This makes the quest for husbands for young women like Elspeth’s and SAM’s daughter, while not quite a quest for the Holy Grail/Arc of the Covenant, a very VERY difficult and frustrating exercise. If she’s not open to marriage outside of her race, she’s very likely going to have to search far and wide (not just outside of her church congregation or her hometown, but outside of het state or even abroad. To be brutally honest (some folks here might want to ready the tar and feathers now), black churches are responsible for exacerbating the problem. If churchianity and the taint of the sociopolitical culture at large has neutered the predominantly white churches, it has all but destroyed the black churches. Certainly NABCALT and WAAS, but what I have witnessed in too many black churches is wholesale capitulation, robbing whole communities of the one place that should be a haven for those committed to righteousness and the desire to turn back the tide of evil that is destroying their families and their communities. Related to this is my observation that Godly masculine leadership is lacking in the black church, sometimes to the point of absence, just as it is in the wider community, even more so than in predominately white churches, but with more devastating results. Hence what appears to be an almost non-existent spiritual framework for guiding and encouraging young black woman AND MEN toward biblical marriage (to say nothing of chastity). A very disheartening thing to do is to socialize after a Sunday service and count the number of “babymommas” and “babydaddys” who are not united. NOT fertile spiritual soil for the resurrection and propagation of marriage and the family.

    – As for the issue of marriage outside of their race, that’s pretty much a non-starter for most black women (in North America), for a variety of cultural and psychological reasons (it never ceases to amaze me that the most raw and overt hostility to my and Mrs. Feeriker’s marriage, on those rare occasions when we’ve faced any, has always come from black women – often loudly self-proclaimed churchgoers). Yes, it does seriously limit options for a black woman whose primary criterion for marriage is a Christ-following husband, but where matters of the heart ate concerned, these are what they are. Even for black women who are open to interracial marriage, many fear negative feedback from family and closest friends (as happened to Mrs. Feeriker from her family and friends, at least at first). Many others assume that men of other races are categorically not attracted to them (absolutely NOT true) and thus never signal IOIs in that direction.

    In closing, FWIW and to anyone interested, here is one insignificant white man’s opinion on what makes a Christian black woman attractive:

    1. The same things that make any Christian white woman (or woman of ANY race) attractive (pleasant demeanor, chaste, feminine, maintains a reasonable weight and takes care of her appearance, interested in what a man likes/needs, domestic skills, clear desire to make a husband and children first in her life, reads and understands the Scriptures and strives to live by them).

    2. See number 1.

    Since most black women today, just like most white women today, are the polar opposite of these things, any marriage-minded young black lady who demonstrates them and who clearly signals IOI to a Christian man while maintaining REASONABLE expectations (i.e., she’s not going to attract a Denzel Washington or a George Clooney, but neither will she have to settle for a Fred “Rerun” Berry or a Chris Farley either), will find her husband – with LOTS OF PRAYER and lots of support from other Godly men and women.

    Over and out (shutting up and going to make myself a sammich).

  268. Elspeth

    My husband is a normal man. That means any marriage where the woman is critical and fault-finding is one in which the woman is choosing to look at the empty part of the glass. That’s why I encourage women to stop doing that and start looking at the great things about their husbands. This is a conscious choice. I don’t praise my husband because he’s just so exceptional (though in my eyes he is) that I can’t refrain from praising him, and no other woman should refrain from praising her husband because he isn’t objectively exceptional.

    I could have written a large portion of this as well. I have to be honest and say that there are areas where my husband is objectively exceptional, but those are rarely the things you will read me comment about because believe it or not, I don’t tell everything.

    Ironically those things that make him objectively exceptional that also lead into the things that cause tension, drive me batty and erupt in minor spats. It’s not all hearts and flowers and we are not exceptional in any noticeable way.

    Like Sunshine, I choose to focus on the good and am actively in pursuit of living Philippians 4 in my marriage as well as other areas of my life. Being discontent and ungrateful may be the natural state of the human condition but God has given us the tools to rise above it. Not because our husbands are *special* (they put their pants on one leg at a time just like any other). Because we want to do them good and not evil, God equips with what we need to be able to do that.

  269. Farm Boy

    I would dare speculate that this outfit has more than it’s share of INTs. They are the ones who want to figure this all out in precise detail.

  270. Splashman

    Michelle wrote:

    I’m breastfeeding our fifth child right now, he’s three months old, and I can say with all honesty that my desire for my husband is greater than when we were dating. If a woman is having difficulties in this area, she needs to pray for God to reveal and heal the problem.

    Your entire comment (of which this is a portion) is pure awesomeness, thank you!

    (I would have copy/pasted the entire comment because awesome, but i didn’t want to fill up the InterTubes unnecessarily.)

  271. imnobody00

    My husband knew girls who were actively pushed into sexual relationships by their mothers because their mothers really thought that was the best way to secure a husband. Newsflash: this isn’t 1820 where a man will be forced into marriage if he ruins a girl.

    Well, to be fair, this was an effective technique until not long ago. Specifically, the previous generation. The mothers of these girls could have their cake and eat it too, because they had changed because of feminism but men hadn’t changed yet. So a woman, after some carouseling, found a man, gave him s*x and received a ring in return. For example, Susan W.

    But the fact is that the culture has changed and this does not work anymore. The previous generation is doing a huge disservice by giving this counter-productive advice to the youth. I’m looking at you, Susan.

  272. Elspeth

    @ Freeriker:

    Appreciated you sharing your experience and perspective.

    Our girls are actually open to whomever God send their way regardless of race. And yes, we absolutely believe that a godly husband is something God will provide, not something that will have to run out and try to grab hold of in their own power.

    Our oldest is open to meeting someone and getting on with it right now. She’s only 19, but she’ll earn her BA before her 20th birthday, has no intention of obtaining a graduate degree and is ready to get on with *life*.

    She has said that if a decent Christian man asks her out, she will not dismiss him out of hand even if she isn’t wowed initially. I take that as a very good sign because she is also the most enamored with her father of the three of our older girls. She wants someone like SAM, no doubt. But she wants what God wants for her more.

    @ Deti:

    This absolute insistence that there are proposals raining from heaven on girls like mine is simply not true. Your experiences and the things you observe are not what defines objective reality for every other person on the planet.

  273. Splashman

    A quick thought, inspired by a couple of commenters:

    If, after due consideration, your primary response to SSM’s & Donal’s original post is to point out all the flaws in it, you have a very unfortunate habit — a habit which likely infects other areas of your life, including your marriage relationship. A person who focuses on their spouse’s flaws, necessarily minimizes their positive attributes, and by doing so, dooms the relationship.

  274. Splashman

    Elspeth wrote:

    This absolute insistence that there are proposals raining from heaven on girls like mine is simply not true. Your experiences and the things you observe are not what defines objective reality for every other person on the planet.

    A big “yup” to both of those statements.

  275. Hipster Racist

    Hipster, you may be a ‘repented’ slut, but your comments here and your blog do not give that impression. Consider my spidey senses tingling on this one.

    My blog is a novel I’m writing, and it’s clearly marked fiction. While it’s very, very sexually charged, it’s hardly “erotica” – in fact, it would likely not appeal to women at all. My story here about Becky happened a long time ago. I made this comment to Scott from the Courtship Pledge on my blog:

    It’s difficult for men to discuss their own promiscuity because it can easily come across as bragging, and men who are not successful with women tend to be somewhat jealous.

    If I was proud of my past sin, I would call myself a “PUA” – as opposed to copping to being a former ‘slut’ – a fornicator – tell me how anyone can use the term ‘slut’ in a positive way?

    As for calling myself an “alpha stud” – that’s clearly mocking the manosphere/gamer types that actually think PUAs have some sort of magical power over women causing them to have sex, as opposed to the reality, women and men choosing to sin of their own volition.

  276. deti

    @ Elspeth:

    “This absolute insistence that there are proposals raining from heaven on girls like mine is simply not true. “

    Agree to disagree then. All I can tell you is that from where I sit, and where I am, your daughter would have been snapped up a year ago without breaking a sweat.

    “Splashman”

    “A quick thought, inspired by a couple of commenters:”

    Ok, Zippy.

    [ssm: I'm confused. You think Zippy and Splashman are the same person? Why? So far as I can tell, they aren't. According to StatCounter neither of them uses an anonymizer, and they have static IPs from completely different locations. I see no evidence that they are the same person, and linguistically they seem distinct. It would be odd for Zippy to sock-puppet.]

  277. Splashman

    Farm Boy wrote:

    I would dare speculate that this outfit has more than it’s share of INTs. They are the ones who want to figure this all out in precise detail.

    Yup. INTP here.

    A couple years ago, I poked around a bunch of MBTI forums. On one end of the scale, both INT forums were extremely active. The ESFJ forum, I recall in particular, was a ghost town. Go figure, eh?

    (No offense intended to ESFJs. Different strokes for different folks.)

  278. Bike Bubba

    Yeah, Hipster, and the fact that a good portion of your blogroll is “adult content 18+”, and another portion is anti-Semitic, means exactly nothing. Nothing at all. You’re reading those sites for the articles , I’m sure.

  279. Just Saying

    I see this topic as one of those things where nothing you do or say can really change things – I learned FROM women – watching them, seeing what worked and didn’t in approaches, and honed it over the years – long before it was anything called “Game” I was using it on women of all ages. Even when they know you’re doing it – they cannot help themselves. Remember: She can NOT control who she is attracted to. She really can’t help herself…

    Now it’s a constantly moving thing as a man ages – what worked when I was 20-30 (some of your list) won’t work for me now, although playing in a band seems to work regardless of age – very weird but it does. The young PUA knows how to turn her on. And the big-brain turns off and a more primal instinct takes over and she WANTS him. Young women are short-term creatures – their attention span is that of a gnat. Shiny objects will distract her and she’ll move on to something different – that is why guys try to guide these fickle creatures quickly to the objective. Time is his enemy – if you want a filter against players – use TIME. Won’t stop her from hooking up – but it may slow her down a bit.

    Remember men who are player’s are giving women exactly what they want, when they want it. Yes, she will put up a token resistance, but she wants it as much as he does. And a lot of women enjoy waking up in a strange bed, with a man they don’t know, it turns them on to be able to do it – a lot of women think that means they are still “hot” – silly little things that they are. And they will compete with their girl-friends on ONS stories. That’s why it’s dangerous for married women to have old college friends stop by when hubby is around. He’ll find out that while she said there was “1 or 2 men” she slept with in college, he’ll find out she was the foot-ball team’s pipe-cleaner and that will usually piss him off to find out he was lied to for years.

    But really – your daughter is the one who is in control of her actions – is it that simple. She will do what she wants – all you can do is raise her properly. If you are in a nuclear family – Mother and Father – she’s got a major head start as she’s not looking for men to define her value. If she’s raised by a single mother – it’s just a question of what man uses her for his objectives first. I know that isn’t what you may have wanted to hear, but it doesn’t make it any less true.

  280. Hipster Racist

    You’re reading those sites for the articles, I’m sure.

    Anyone reading these stories and getting sexually aroused needs to look in the mirror. The novel is basically horror. It’s the opposite of sexy. Do you read Tom Clancy and get off on the violence?

    anti-Semitic

    Pfft. I suppose you are joining the far left anti-Christian ADL in calling for St. John Chrysostom to be banned too? The Christian Church is “anti-Semitic” and so is the New Testament.

    You could make a half-decent argument about the sex, but you lose all credibility with that “anti-Semitic” canard. You may as well complain about “homophobia.”

  281. Maeve

    I’m admittedly coming to this on the tail-end of the discussion, but after having read the original post a couple times, it occurs to me that really, many (not all) actually view dating as husband hunting and they view boyfriends as men who morph into husbands at some point. I don’t think girls actually differentiate between the two, particularly young women. I asked my older daughter some time ago what sort of qualities she looked for in a husband and was not surprised when she described an ideal boyfriend. I asked how that would make him a good husband and she really didn’t have an answer. We didn’t get too much further into it than that. Point is, I think for many girls, “husband” is what “boyfriend” eventually becomes. So, she’s looking for what makes a good “boyfriend”, and not thinking that “husband” is something entirely different. Am I way off topic here?

  282. Bike Bubba

    Hipster, I’m talking about the blogs you’re linking to. In the same way that I know something about a guy if I walk into his house and see a stack of Hugh Hefner’s work there, I see the same thing on your site.

    Banning? No. But your site says something about your character. If it’s not true, I recommend changing it.

  283. donalgraeme

    @ Maeve

    What you described is of course a major reason why so many women, including Christian women (perhaps especially Christian women), fall into sin so easily. The filter for “boyfriend” is so much easier to pass than “husband” (which they often aren’t even looking for directly), and so they associate closely (intimately) with men who would never make good husbands.

    Young women aren’t taught to look for husbands. Somewhere along the lines we developed this idea that women have this naturally; they most assuredly don’t and it shows.

    You really need to talk to your daughters (both of them) about this in depth. I guarantee they need it.

  284. Hipster Racist

    So I skimmed your “A very interesting question on Syria” article. I’m guessing that’s the real objection here. 9/11. That’s where the “anti-Semitism” thing is coming from, the sex is just a smokescreen.

    You would not want to tangle with me over that issue. I’m going to guess you weren’t there, so you literally have nothing – nada – credible to say on the topic.

    But that tells me a lot about *your* character.

    Jer. 5:31

  285. Bike Bubba

    The anti-Semitism thing is very simple; you are linking to a site called “expel the parasite”, which calls for “white survival” and
    “destroying the Jewish menace.” Charming swastika there. If you don’t want to be criticized for hanging out with Neo-Nazis, then don’t hang out with Neo-Nazis, Hipster.

    Genesis 12:3.

  286. Splashman

    Mauve wrote:

    Point is, I think for many girls, “husband” is what “boyfriend” eventually becomes. So, she’s looking for what makes a good “boyfriend”, and not thinking that “husband” is something entirely different. Am I way off topic here?

    Nope, you nailed it, and I’m very glad you brought it up. This is one of those foundational things that affect everything else.

    My oldest is 14, but I’m already spending time with her discussing the attributes of a good husband.

  287. Farm Boy

    Boyfriends are selected based on tingles. Husbands should be selected with a wider range of criteria.

  288. Bike Bubba

    BTW, Hipster, just because I object to your apparent neo-Nazi tendencies does not mean I don’t object to your treatment of women. Sorry, but your blog and your blog roll state clearly that you’re quite the piece of work, and an excellent example of some of the tendencies that a young lady can pick out as reasons to avoid you.

  289. Hipster Racist

    Right, as I said, the sex is just a smokescreen, that’s not what you actually object to. You complained that you didn’t think I had repented of my promiscuous past – but that’s not at all what your problem actually is. That was pure deception, a distraction on your part. And, pray tell, what is wrong with white survival? Why no complaints about the feminist blogs I’m subscribed to? I must be a feminist then, right?

    Of all the people that post here – Christians, non-Christians, “PUAs” gamers, feminists, anti-feminists, chaste men and women looking to marry, married men and women who were chaste, married men and women who were not – you choose to single me out. I’ve made dozens of comments here decrying promiscuity in both men and women, often emphasizing the boys need to be warned about seduction as much as girls. I’ve even decried porn right in this thread.

    If you really wanted to complain about the sex, you would have. But you brought up “anti-Semitism” – which is quite the tell. So, you’re a partisan Republican, invested in the wars in the Middle East, and I’m guessing subscribe to the heresy of “Christian” Zionism. So of course, the stuff about 9/11 drives you into fits of rage.

    I’ve been dealing with the personal attacks, slander, demonization – and physical threats of violence – from your type for 12 years. I think I know exactly what I’m dealing with here.

    Again, the complaints about sex were just a smokescreen.

    John 8:44-45

  290. Maeve

    @ Donal – have been thinking about this since I posted my comment, and have come to the conclusion that we may approaching this somewhat backwards. If they’re not in “wife-in-waiting” mode, then all the discussions about selecting a husband are for naught, because our girls won’t be thinking that this applies to them if they’re still in girlfriend-mode.
    It has to start with “how do you see yourself as wife” in order to be able to think about what to look for in a husband. (I would say that the same would apply to young men as well).

    And I do agree with you – I must have ongoing conversations about boyfriend vs. husband (with the focus on the latter, of course).

    @Splashman – I sometimes type that myself, LOL.

    Hi Fuzzie :-)

    And now I have to pick up the pizza or there will be much gnashing of teeth and wailing…..

  291. Hipster Racist

    Let’s remember too, BikeBubba’s “Christian” Zionism is denounced by the Roman Catholic church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and most Protestant denominations. “Christian” Zionism is a fringe heresy only peddled by various so-called “evangelical” mega-churches, such as John Hagee’s.

    So, remember, he first accused me of not being repentant of my promiscuous past, but as we can see, that wasn’t really his objection at all. He’s floundering around trying to accuse me of something, but it’s clear it’s the 9/11 thing that really gets under his goat. It’s funny that 9/11 Liars are almost all closely associated with Zionism.

    Funny, that.

    Matthew 27:24-25

  292. donalgraeme

    @ Maeve

    If they’re not in “wife-in-waiting” mode, then all the discussions about selecting a husband are for naught, because our girls won’t be thinking that this applies to them if they’re still in girlfriend-mode.
    It has to start with “how do you see yourself as wife” in order to be able to think about what to look for in a husband. (I would say that the same would apply to young men as well).

    You are right, of course. You need to persuade them to switch from a “dating/relationship” mode of thinking towards a marriage-centric focus. The same applies to men. Right now the culture teaches young men and women (especially women) to push marriage off towards the horizon. Until you break down that indoctrination, anything else you teach will be of little use.

  293. Feather Blade

    “The relentless pursuit of perfection.”
    @deti:
    A Christian girl refusing an atheist is hardly the relentless pursuit of perfection. She can, in fact, do nothing else without violating the Scriptures and compromising her Christian witness.

    This is a good article on the topic:
    http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2011/07/dating-when-words-and-choices-clash.html

    “any woman could get pretty much what she wanted from men, on her timetable. If she wanted dates, sex, flings, ONSs, LTRs or husbands, she could get them.”

    Ok, let us assume this is true.

    How did they do it? How did these women go about getting husbands? Pointers on how to accomplish this would be most welcome for those of us who, despite our best efforts, have not succeeded in getting husbands, if you are willing to share your accumulated observations.

  294. Bike Bubba

    Notice that Hipster says that “liars are almost all closely associated with Zionism”.

    Q.E.D. Hipster, if you don’t want to be called a Neo-Nazi, you’ve got to stop pulling stupid stuff like this.

  295. Ton

    Hipster has a blog? Kewl. Ever notice how the truth is always sexist, racist, anti semitic etc all? Unless it makes White folk look bad that is.

    LOL@ Free. I’ll wade into any topic myself. What’s the worst? Be called a name? Maybe the dreaded “R” word…. oooooh noooo’ s……. I have meet a lot of great black girls over the years who dated me because, in part, what you listed.

    Christian girls fall into sin the easy as pie because most believe they are above sin, inherently good etc just like the church and society tell them.

  296. redneck01

    Here’s a catch 22, a man is going to have 0 success with women until.women are interchangeable.

    If true, then women would only be attracted to players, which I don’t think is the case. Every player tells every women that she is special, while leaving her in considerable and well founded doubt as to whether she is special or not.

    Developing the attitude that women are interchangeable and there are plenty more of them helps with self confidence, but so does physical strength, and so does theanine and aetonolol. One can develop self confidence without necessarily requiring a cynical and basically hostile attitude to women, though a cynical and hostile attitude makes it a lot easier.

    Further, while women like the self confidence, they really don’t like the cynical and hostile attitude, and proof of this is that every player tells every women he meets that she is special, thus other ways of developing self confidence may be preferable. All the great seducers, for example Casanova, really liked women. Casanova genuinely thought that every women he met was special, forgetting that had he also thought that every previous women he had met was special also.

  297. Farm Boy

    It has to start with “how do you see yourself as wife”

    As I mentioned previously, I went through my 20’s looking at women and evaluating how good of a mother they might be. I was not impressed. Fun and games was what they had in mind.

  298. Hipster Racist

    Notice that Hipster says that ‘liars are almost all closely associated with Zionism.’

    No, I said “9/11 Liars are almost all closely associated with Zionism.” That is a factual statement.

    Q.E.D. Hipster, if you don’t want to be called a Neo-Nazi, you’ve got to stop pulling stupid stuff like this.

    Feel free to explain how the statement has anything to do with “Neo-Nazis.” But, of course, you can’t. All you are doing is libeling me. Your anti-Christian Zionist pal Abe Foxman would be proud.

    You can feel free to continue this conversation – about your anti-Christian Zionist heresy – on my blog, as you’ve now dragged this completely off-topic. The only reason I’m even responding is because you’re libeling me.

  299. Ton

    So Whites do not have the right to survive as an ethnic group and we should allow foreign and hostile people into our nation’s?

  300. jack

    What is probably driving the black men away from the church is the same thing that is driving the white men away. Relentless male bashing, condescension, and AMOGing from the pulpit.

    If pastors would pastor to the NEEDS of them men CORRECTLY, then the needs of the women would be met automatically. But pastors are whipping the men like mules.

  301. JDG

    How did they do it? How did these women go about getting husbands? Pointers on how to accomplish this would be most welcome for those of us who, despite our best efforts, have not succeeded in getting husbands, if you are willing to share your accumulated observations.

    It may start with you taking notice of men whom aren’t normally even on your radar. You may even have to go back and re-evaluate some of the guys that were already vetoed or friend zoned.

    I know of one couple where the wife would probably rate a 3 in looks and the husband an easy 5 (probably be a 7 if he were more masculine). How did she do it? Based on what I observed the other girls in his circle were hunting higher than 5 or not looking for marriage at all. None of them saw his 7 potential and/or were turned off by his shyness (the 3 is aggressive). Any of the other girls could have had him if they would have given him the time of day.

    Just my observation.

  302. redneck01

    That’s odd, there are several pretty, nice, not-fat virgins who would like to be married who comment here. Elspeth has two pretty, nice, not-fat virgin daughters who are of age. None of these girls is over 30. Most of them are under 25.

    The problem is that eighty percent of men are invisible to most women, and for many women, for example my aging niece, ninety seven percent of men are invisible. That twenty percent is disinclined to get married, and that three percent is way disinclined to get married.

    The man serving life in prison for kidnapping, murder, and cannibalism gets hot letters from hot chicks he has never met. The man who got a corner office because he landed the Coca Cola account does not get hot letters from hot chicks he has never met. Try writing hot letters to the man who got a corner office for landing the Coca Cola account.

    Of course, the problem is that desire cannot be negotiated, which is why Elspeth’s daughters are not writing hot letters to the man in the corner office, because he does not make them feel hot.

    Because of the high status of women in our society, they find the great majority of males non desirable, hence late marriage and low birth rates. Late marriage, of course, leads to them having sex with players, which results in the alpha widow problem. Having casual sex with manly, charismatic, handsome, high status males makes the kind of males who might marry them less attractive, and makes them less attractive to the kind of males who might marry them.

    For some women, more males become visible once they hit the wall. For some women, even fewer males.

    The basic problem is that from about age eighteen to age thirty, ninety percent of the women are having sex with ten percent of the males, and the lonely males in the other ninety percent would be happy to marry pretty much anyone at the drop of a hat.

    Unfortunately, women cannot simply decide to desire men in the other eighty percent..

  303. Feather Blade

    “It may start with you taking notice of men whom aren’t normally even on your radar. You may even have to go back and re-evaluate some of the guys that were already vetoed or friend zoned.”

    Okay, that sounds like a reasonable start. And then what?

  304. jack

    redneck nails it.

    And that is why I take such glee in rubbing post-wall SINGLE womens’ faces in their folly.

    They need to be made to choke down the same terrible plate of rejection they served up so blithely when they were in the power position.

    Now, I would be fine with a gentler message, but their hamsterbation means it falls on deaf ears, and a gentle approach is met with childish defiance.

    So, right for the very heart of their ego I will go, and remind them about the fattening rear ends, sagging skin, and withering youth. In person, if needed.

    Fading female beauty is a horror movie that never ends, and the only cure is to stop the aging process using the “husband goggles” effect, which most of them were not wise enough to do.

  305. jack

    Ok, I’ll be nice now for a moment:

    Feather blade, you need to be kind, gentle, available, supportive, and LOOK with earnestness for characteristics in men that you admire. Train yourself to admire the good and overlook the superficial, just as a person who desires to be healthy trains themselves to prefer healthy eating over junk food.

    And dress like Zooey Deschanel…

  306. Farm Boy

    And then what?

    Realize that marriage is all about her. Understandbtyat hebis not a fashion accesory, sperm bank and ATM. Convince him that she would be a good wife and mother. Dump her crappy immature girlfriends. Realize that she can be content; and that super-happiness is not always bin the mix.

  307. Feather Blade

    “Feather blade, you need to be kind, gentle, available, supportive, and LOOK with earnestness for characteristics in men that you admire.”

    Alright, done. I’m even encouraging and reflexively complimentary when talking to men, and am the assistant teacher for the toddler class at church.

    What’s next?

  308. Farm Boy

    If only women werebto wear pink ribbons to raise money for hypergamy research, we could lick this problem

  309. JDG

    And then what?

    I guess I could ask the fellow’s wife, but I think Farm Boy and Jack pretty much covered it. All my wife had to do was let me know she was available and interested to get the ball rolling. Then with much prayer and council came the vetting (for both of us) and courtship. Engagement followed, and then we were married.

  310. JDG

    You could also try making a potential prospect a sammich for a conversation starter, but that might be overkill.

  311. FuzzieWuzzie

    Feather Blade, you might want to try an exercise that espoused by privateman. Essentially, find something positive in every man you see. You needn’t follow through on this but, it will open up vistas for you.
    However, we are starting to get a lot of feedback from women saying that it’s a difficult market for them. While it’s obvious that the men are still out there, I can think that a good many of them have chosen to back off. This sexual/mariage marketplace has taken a toll on them.

  312. redneck01

    Furthermore, there are very few men who cannot get *any* date.

    Men, regardless of their own age, status, looks, income, or lack thereof, restrict themselves to fertile age women, but are otherwise not that picky. Women are picky. Most men will date anyone in the top eighty percent of fertile age women. Most women don’t even see the bottom eighty percent of males, don’t realize they exist.

    Further, even if a woman consciously realizes that this is a really bad idea, she cannot do much about it. She cannot decide to desire, or even notice, those men she does not desire or notice.

    It is biology that makes women picky, but it is our society, with the status of women elevated far above that in the ancestral environment, that makes women pathologically picky.

    The practice of dating also makes women picky. Facing a multitude of men looking to date her, she naturally chooses the best, who is usually the man least likely to marry her. Under the old system, where a man asked the parents for permission to court their daughter, and then courting took place in their presence, with no physical contact allowed, and no prospect it would ever be allowed until he married her, a woman had no contact with non family males except the one or two guys who were allowed to court her, so whoever courted her looked pretty hot, and she wanted to jump their bones immediately, therefore wanted to marry whoever courted her immediately, so was happy to marry pretty much anyone her parents decided upon.

    If she decided she did not want the parentally selected male, parents would allow some suitably respectable physical contact, (dancing, etc) and soon she would change her mind.

  313. Farm Boy

    The mothers of these girls could have their cake and eat it too, because they had changed because of feminism but men hadn’t changed yet. So a woman, after some carouseling, found a man, gave him s*x and received a ring in return.

    Obviously things have changed from then, but by how much?

  314. redneck01

    I’m not just “complaining”. I offered something very practical and very easy to understand. “Keep your legs shut”.

    This is not at all easy to do for a woman older than adrenarche and younger than menopause. Women are naturally selective. They are not naturally chaste.

  315. jack

    Featherblade-
    Another thing to do is to promise yourself that you will never regard the hectoring voices of female “friends” to pick your man apart.

    Never gossip about your man to other women. They will tear him down in your eyes, which is lethal to your love for him.

  316. redneck01

    Sunshine Mary wrote:

    But your assumption that they are unhappy with their husbands is a projection onto their relationship.

    Consider the reality show star Kate Gosselin, woman has eight children by a decent, reasonably attractive husband, who loves her and loves his children. Acts like a complete shrew towards the only man who will ever lover her and her children. Ditches him. Is shocked to discover that no other male wants a woman past her prime and encumbered with eight children.

    Kate Gosselin was videotaped continually treating her husband like dirt, as the man she reluctantly settled for seeing as all her preferred choices would not return her phone calls.

    She then divorced him, depriving him of his much loved children, depriving her eight children of a much needed father, and herself of a much needed and entirely irreplaceable husband.

    And I have seen a similar dynamic in every divorce that I have observed, though of course with considerably fewer children. In every divorce that I have observed the wife was utterly and spectacularly out of contact with marriage market realities. The result of the divorce is that the man, who very much did not want the divorce, was much better off, free of a hateful and unfaithful shrew, and the wife was very much worse off. As the wife goggles fell from his eyes, he usually found a considerably younger replacement.

    At the age of thirty eight, with eight children and a notorious shrew, Kate Gosselin’s chances of marrying even a homeless obese seventy year old alcoholic are about equal to her chances of being kidnapped by terrorists and becoming the wife of the sultan, but she specifically requires her new husband to be rich, six foot tall, physically fit, and childless. (Her previous husband was not rich, not six foot tall, and only ordinarily fit, which is presumably why she divorced him.)

    Meanwhile her husband, having lost the wife goggles, now has a 22 year old hot girlfriend, and if the girlfriend is lucky, might marry her.

    [ssm: FYI - you attributed the quote at the top to me, but it was actually Denise who wrote that.]

  317. SirNemesis

    @ Feather Blade

    Two posts at JFG that address this (by two different authors, but they say essentially the same things): http://www.justfourguys.com/girl-game-is-simple-yet-so-hard/ and http://www.justfourguys.com/why-women-fail-with-men/

    Since you are a commenter here, I assume you understand the importance of looks to men, and have kept yourself thin, with long hair, and dress attractively. I also assume that you know you shouldn’t be picky and should average guys a chance. I assume you also act feminine.

    That leaves the likely sticking point: putting yourself out there. If passivity isn’t working for you, you’l have to be proactive and make frequent eye-contact (even with strangers), smile at men, and potentially approach quiet/shy men yourself.

    One potential factor not mentioned in the articles is location. The stats that I’ve seen for Manhattan, for example, are absolutely brutal for women – so bad it’s like Silicon Valley in reverse. If there aren’t many single marriage-minded men available in your area, it might seriously worth considering the drastic step of relocating. There are lots of men out West!

  318. redneck01
    The mere fact that a woman agrees to marry a man does NOT necessarily mean she is sexually attracted to that man, does NOT necessarily mean she loves that man; indeed, does NOT necessarily mean she respects or even likes him.

    This may happen in countries where arranged marriages are common

    For the great majority of women, what happens is that no man that woman is attracted to will marry her, so when she gets desperate enough she winds up reluctantly marrying someone whom she is not attracted to.

    In countries where arranged marriages are common, the wife, on the contrary, is almost always powerfully attracted to the husband. What makes arranged marriages possible is not that they give the girl a beating to make her marry the selected husband, but that they give the girl frequent beatings to prevent her from getting it on with all the unselected males.

  319. Farm Boy

    Feather,

    Appreciate your man for all that he does.

    Do not continually compare him to other men.

    Do not nag him

    Be a submissive wife.

  320. FuzzieWuzzie

    Redneck01, marrying the Sultan is out of the question for Kate Gosselin. He left the Topkapi Palace when the Ottoman Empire collapsed at the close of WWI.

  321. redneck01

    I see quite average women rejecting those SMV peer men and demanding male 9s and 10s for themselves.

    Exactly so. The typical marriage is Kate Gosselin and Jon Gosselin: The wife has a hugely inflated idea of her marriage market value (based on her F-buddy market value when she was considerably younger) and this poisons the marriage.

    Now theoretically, if a woman is chaste, men will only approach her that are appropriate to her marriage market value, and she will avoid getting an inflated perception of her value, but no man believes that a chaste women is likely to remain chaste, because, they are not likely to remain chaste. So a woman faces a storm of approaches that would never happen if the boys had to ask her dad before approaching her, and if her dad said yes, they would get not a date with the opportunity of physical contact, but merely the opportunity to court her for marriage.

  322. Feather Blade

    Gentlemen:

    Thank you very much for your advice. The only part of it that I had not previously been taught or figured out on my own even before finding the “manosphere” blogs (usually from seeing how other women behaved and wondering why their men would put up with it) was how significant a factor a woman’s appearance is. …and I am working on improving mine.

    @Farm Boy:
    My mother taught me better than to nag and disparage the men in my family. It’s a moot point, of course, since I don’t have a man of my own.
    She even taught me that saying positive things about another person can change your attitude toward them… It’s a surprisingly effective punishment to use on small children who constantly squabble with their siblings.

    @Sir Nemesis,
    Passivity is perhaps the most significant of the factors. This is not to say that I won’t approach a man, and I have done so in the past (the son of one of the older women in the Sunday school group I attend), but I have a hard time approaching men with whom I have no acquaintance. I cannot judge well whether such an approach would be viewed as too forward and/or a rebellious usurpation of what is properly the man’s initiative to take.

    I have tried online dating. It resulted in a couple of interesting conversations and a couple of dates, both with Christians (at least by their own accounts), neither one of whom I would have suited.
    I do live out west, in a town with several strong churches and a large contingent of people committed to a better way of forming marriages than American society standard.

    And I know…It’s not as though I am completely useless to God without a husband…it would just be kind of nice to be in the yoke with someone, rather than to pull the plow alone.

    Whatever, i’m maundering. Sorry.

  323. SirNemesis

    @ Feather Blade

    Passivity is perhaps the most significant of the factors. This is not to say that I won’t approach a man, and I have done so in the past (the son of one of the older women in the Sunday school group I attend), but I have a hard time approaching men with whom I have no acquaintance. I cannot judge well whether such an approach would be viewed as too forward and/or a rebellious usurpation of what is properly the man’s initiative to take.

    Well, I don’t run with the religious crowd, so they might care about traditional dating roles more than most men. However, of the guys I know, all would be more than happy to be approached. You just have to maintain your class/modesty to avoid giving the impression that you might be an aggressive slut.

    I have tried online dating. It resulted in a couple of interesting conversations and a couple of dates, both with Christians (at least by their own accounts), neither one of whom I would have suited.
    I do live out west, in a town with several strong churches and a large contingent of people committed to a better way of forming marriages than American society standard.

    Okay location isn’t the problem then (other than meaning that there is a limited pool to choose from for online dating which you might have already exhausted).

    And I know…It’s not as though I am completely useless to God without a husband…it would just be kind of nice to be in the yoke with someone, rather than to pull the plow alone.

    This kind of attitude, is a MAJOR turnoff for marriage-/romance- oriented men. We want someone who wants – nay – NEEDS a guy. Not just as icing on the cake in her life, but as an integral part of her life.

    Of course, the opposite is someone who only wants a wedding and ring and to be able to say she’s married, not so much the actual man. You need to demonstrate that you need a romantic partner (and the wedding and ring merely accompany the guy).

  324. anonymous_ng

    Someone near the top mentioned that showing a feminine side might be productive online. I will say that in my local area, the major online dating sites are overflowing with woman that aren’t worth the effort. The two times I seriously considered contacting a woman, it was because her profile showed her to be feminine and not a feminist.

    I’m not sure whether “quality” women never make it to online dating, whether they quickly find someone to date and them leave, or if (what seems likely to me) they quickly flee in horror at the craziness that ensues.

  325. redneck01

    Pointers on how to accomplish this would be most welcome for those of us who, despite our best efforts, have not succeeded in getting husbands,

    It is simple – like dieting, Simple but extremely difficult.

    For motivation, watch some Kate Gosselin videos. Vow that you, unlike Kate Gosselin, will form a realistic assessment of your marriage market value.

    A woman’s F-buddy market value, and her short term dating market value, are at their peak from eighteen to twenty six. From twenty six these market values start to fall, and after thirty, fall with alarming speed.

    Your marriage market value peaks much earlier, because a prospective husband takes into account your remaining years of beauty and fertility, rather than your current beauty.

    Your F-Buddy market value is much higher than your dating market value, and, past twenty or so, your dating market value is much higher than your marriage market value.

    So, past twenty or so, pretty much any guy you can date and would like to date, you should not date if you are hoping to get married. Forget about those guys, and remember all their bad points, because you do not want to become an alpha widow. Do not be Kate Gosselin. Kate Gosselin is the evil opposite of Sunshine Mary.

    Repeating: Your F-buddy market value is way higher than your dating market value, and your dating market value is way higher than your marriage market value.

    Your marriage market value is falling right now, falling hard and fast,. and your dating market value soon will be.

    OK, next identify some suitable prospects: Decent income, stable jobs, healthy, no very serious drug habits. Hit on them! If you are embarrassed to hit on them (and you should be) send your girlfriend, maid, or parents to hit on them for you. It happens all the time.

    As soon as possible, tell him your biological clock is ticking, and you are shopping for a husband. If he flees to the hills screaming, you are still aiming too high.

  326. jack

    Regarding Kate Gosselin, there is almost no amount of emotional suffering I would not joyously watch her undergo. I hope every single day just tears her effing heart out.

    I would pay money to watch her cry herself to sleep.

  327. ballista74

    @Feather Blade

    I cannot judge well whether such an approach would be viewed as too forward and/or a rebellious usurpation of what is properly the man’s initiative to take.

    As I’ve talked about before, the problem that you run into (which “the religious crowd” only exacerbates), is that the approach isn’t a bad thing, and is in fact a good thing. How else is a man going to be aware of you?

    Unfortunately, amidst all the terrible dating advice that exists in the modern church, one of those is that all the woman does is sit back and wait for the men to approach them, but what that does is make the woman into a piece of furniture. Pieces of furniture blend into the background and don’t get noticed. Then these women wonder why men don’t notice them and they don’t get dates. In short, the correct model is not “men pursue” but “women initiate, men respond”. You have to be willing to put yourself out there, be friendly, and show interest in men you like so they will (if they like you), escalate and respond with date requests. It’s not too forward to be friendly and open to those that you meet.

    Overall, remember that women aren’t exempt from “ask, seek, knock” in life, no matter how much the religious feminists would like to try and make it different. You can’t pray for a husband, and then sit back and do nothing. Action is required.

  328. SirNemesis

    @ anonymous_rg

    I’m not sure whether “quality” women never make it to online dating, whether they quickly find someone to date and them leave, or if (what seems likely to me) they quickly flee in horror at the craziness that ensues.

    It’s probably good practice for any quality women (at least in large cities) to delete any unsolicited messages without even reading them – many of them will be crude and from casual-sex-oriented men. Even if the messages are good and from good men, the sheer volume of choice will put off the woman. Much better to just search out men on her own and initiate contact with the ones she finds most interesting.

  329. Farm Boy

    Ladies taking the initiative to get noticed is a good idea. Fellas get tired of taking all the risks and doing all of the work such that they often reduce their effort. They may even build up some resentment due to the unbalanced nature of the endeavour. A woman shouldering some of the load can go a long way.

    Note: this is especially easy to do with online dating.

  330. Farm Boy

    SSM,

    Perhaps you should do a post on the difference between looking for a boyfriend and looking for a husband.

  331. Farm Boy

    I would pay money to watch her cry herself to sleep.

    The train wreck formerly known as Mrs. Erikson has a blog. This might be the next best thing.

  332. Farm Boy

    Further advice — don’t shit test continually. You just may shit test yourself into getting dumped.

  333. femininebutnotfeminist

    Wow what a difference a day and a half makes in the # of comments! SSM, I made the mistake of clicking that box to get an email every time a new comment is made on this post… NEVER AGAIN… my inbox hates me right now, lol. Now to respond…

    SSM said ~ “I always hear from men that all women who are 5.5s and above have men raining down from the sky on bended knee, rings in hand” … I hear this too, it’s pure rubbish. As Hipster Racist said ~ “I’ve known plenty of “beta orbiters” pining away for the hot girl and not giving women in their league the time of day. It really does work both ways”…I have seen this myself more times than I can count. The only girls that have men raining from the sky are the super hot ones. End of story.

    @ Hipster Racist,

    +1 on your feb 14th 11:06 am comment to deti. And you will have mail later (not yet though, I haven’t done it yet). To everyone else: Maybe I will take him up on his offer, maybe I will say “let’s just be friends”, maybe I will reject him gently, maybe I will tell him to take a hike. You don’t know so don’t bother speculating.

    @ Athor Pel,

    “Like going to medical school or doing long shifts in a hospital”… actually I work in a retail pharmacy as a technician, so no college required (just a national certification test that I studied for at home for a few months). Apart from APP classes in high school and an occasional class at the community college just because I’m interested in learning something new, I didn’t go to college so…

    “What state do you live in? If you live in Texas I will ask more questions”… I live in the northeast/northmidwestern region, so a long way from Texas. (I don’t want to say my specific state publicly though). But :-)

    +1 on what Denise and Elspeth said about men also being picky. They may not be as picky as most women, and they may be picky in different ways, but they are still picky nonetheless, from what I’ve seen anyways. This includes guys that don’t consider themselves to be in the 9 and 10 categories, and who don’t necessarily have women raining from the sky chasing after them. I’ve seen it with my own eyes.

    @ everyone in general,

    I actually agree with what deti said about it being simple and just keeping your legs shut (but I do still think this post was important to write. I for one am very grateful for it because I just never knew what to look for and would end up on dates with guys that would push for sex at the end, and I would be surprised having thought that he was a nice guy… “friendly” nice, not “passive” nice). what makes it simple you ask? Well let me tell you how I do it… (if a girl can get these things down, she will have no trouble saying no, even during times of great temptation)…

    1~ have very strong convictions about what sex really is, which is 2 becoming 1 for life. It’s not something to take lightly. It’s the ultimate in connection with another human being, nothing else comes close. And breaking that connection should cause enormous pain and heartache, so the only way to avoid this is to wait until marriage (this is where my sensitivity to rejection has come in very handy… I could never handle being rejected after giving this away, and I knew it even before it was ever on the table). If a woman sees sex as being sacred, she will have little trouble resisting. Anyone who gives it up prematurely didn’t fully understand this, even if she thought she did.

    2~she needs a good dose of stubbornness. Thanks be to my Dad for actively teaching me that you have to be bullheaded sometimes in order to keep yourself straight. I can be stubborn to a fault sometimes, but in this case it has been good for me. The only time I ever had trouble resisting (to the point of almost breaking my rule #1 above) was when I was engaged and he started pushing for it. This is when I had to rely on being bullheaded and dig my heels in tight.

    In addition to knowing how to spot these guys and all, a girl MUST do what I just said as well. Had I not been stubborn about my very strong convictions I would almost certainly be an alpha widow now.

    On a silly note… will someone please explain to me what is the fascination with sammiches? LOL seriously!

  334. FuzzieWuzzie

    Femininbutnotfeminist, making sandwiches for your sweetie is an act of service that is motivated by kindness. Feminists are not inclined to do this and, if asked, they’ll go ballistic. So it has become something of a standing joke.

  335. grey_whiskers

    @ssm
    [ssm Yes, girls all have an inner slut-wannabe, and I am sure you are correct that all men have an inner player-wannabe. And it can happen that a young couple inadvertently ends up escalating things sexually, but with players it is not inadvertent but rather on purpose, the entire goal of the interaction. We are hoping that looking through that list will at least give girls an idea of what to look out for from a man who is purposefully trying to get her into a situation that will be sexually tempting, assuming that she doesn't want to be in a tempting situation because she is trying to stay chaste and search for a husband.]

    Sigh. The key is this…men are logical, women are emotional.
    The top players (Roosh, Roissy, Krauser) have analyzed logically, to figure out
    a) women’s attraction triggers (emotional *and* physiological)
    b) women’s internal “red lights” and “green lights” ;
    c) how to distinguish women’s red lights and green lights
    d) and how to react to them in a way to increase the escalation overall while allowing the woman to “reassure herself” it is safe, or that she will not be judged for what she does

    The most important point, is that since women are emotionally-driven, they lack the essential ability to detach from the situation to look at the course of the escalation and its rapidity (see also the loss of moral agency); the most they can do is evaluate “is he a good guy” (does he tingle me, does his attention flatter me and build up my estimation of my social standing, can I defend it socially tomorrow if we escalate).

    And the pickup artists have learned, and teach, both the emotional sensitivity and the nonverbal / verbal techniques to use, that are *just deep enough* that the woman, in trying to evaluate him, sees nothing more than flattery — not the beta chump simpering supplicating flattery, but the kind of attention she secretly hopes that Brad Pitt or George Clooney would give her: OMG! (“He sees my INNER SNOWFLAKE, and he’s captivated by it! This is so SPECIAL!”)

    As I read on the internet,

    Every girl wants a bad boy who will be good, just for her
    and
    every boy wants a good girl who will be bad, just for him.

    But just as beta chumps never realize there is no such thing as relationship equity, all the devoted orbiter attention does not obligate her to be attracted to you —
    women never realize there is not such thing as sexual equity — putting out for a bad boy does not obligate him to *really* change for or commit to you.

    Players work on this secret desire of women, by implicitly promising that they’re always ‘just on the verge’ of becoming good, for her —
    SSM and similar Christian blogs teach women that if they become submissive for their husband (upto and including, but not limited to, being his “bad girl”), they will feel the same tingles for him, as if he were a bad boy.

  336. grey_whiskers

    @jack February 14, 2014 at 10:31 am

    There is only one perfect filter to screen out the difference between a guy who is perfect for you and a player:

    No premarital sex. It is the only foolproof means. The player will always be revealed by this method, and sooner rather than later.

    The player will push for sex. The good man will push for marriage (eventually). Because he wants to bed you even MORE than the player does, because he is willing to make you his last, not his next.
    A man talks to a woman because he wants to (ultimately, eventually) *have sex* with her.
    A man marries a woman because he wants to have sex with *HER*, and is willing to forego all other women in order to have her all to himself, for the rest of their lives.

  337. lovelyleblanc7

    @Femininebutnotfeminist:
    “If a woman sees sex as being sacred, she will have little trouble resisting. Anyone who gives it up prematurely didn’t fully understand this, even if she thought she did.”
    SO TRUE.
    I honestly don’t understand how some people can separate their emotions from sex. I feel that even if I wasn’t convinced of Christianity, I would still choose to wait until marriage because I don’t think sex and emotions can be separated. Sex is supposed to make bonds within marriage stronger. The thought of giving it up to anybody but my future husband (if God’s will for me is marriage) would be incomprehensible.
    When I get married I want my husband to be my first and only.
    “She brings him good, not harm, all the days of her life.” (Proverbs 31:12)
    I don’t believe in “The One” or anything like that, but I would see pre-martial sex as doing my future husband wrong.
    If that makes any sense?

  338. grey_whiskers

    @lovelyleblanc7 on February 15, 2014 at 4:55 PM
    I don’t believe in “The One” or anything like that, but I would see pre-martial sex as doing my future husband wrong.
    If that makes any sense?

    Perfect sense —
    Sex outside of marriage leads to you knowing about the male body and your responses, with someone other than your husband. This means (think of your brain as a “neural network” computer, duh!) that the first guy you had sex with becomes your “frame of reference” (oh, this is what a man’s (insert name of body part here) feels like. Oh, that’s what it does when his hands touch me *here*. Oh, you take off clothes *at this point* during kissing.)
    Sharing all of these defining experiences with your husband ALONE makes the bond with him stronger.
    Also — if you have intense emotions with a man (bonding, which sex tends to do) and he leaves, it is likely that one of two things happen:
    1) you drag out and refuse to admit the breakup and idealize him, because you can’t accept it’s over
    2) you replay everything in the relationship in terms of “what YOU did wrong” that you didn’t keep him (even after offering *sex*!), meaning your impression of that man’s likes and dislikes become part of your programming for how to please a man; because this is FAR easier than admitting to yourself that you “meant” NOTHING to the alpha, that we really was using just your body for release.
    Then, if you later get married — it’s not that the guy is a simpering weakling who can’t excite you the way the first alpha-male guy did: it’s that, he likely has to contend with *your imagination* which has been on overdrive with an ideal image of someone else. And there is no man alive whose real, day-to-day life shared with a woman (housework, traffic, bills, headaches, and the like) can compare against her *imagination* which only focuses on “the good stuff” (*sigh*)

  339. femininebutnotfeminist

    @ Lovely,

    Yes that makes a lot of sense, and I agree with you 1,000%! :-) … I have tried very hard to understand the thought process that would have to take place in order to have a hook-up, but it is just over my head. I can’t figure out how to separate sex from emotions either because to me they go hand in hand. (Perhaps it’s an INFJ thing?)

    @ Grey Whiskers,

    Thank you for that explanation :-)

  340. lovelyleblanc7

    @Grey Whiskers: That is a good anology with the neural network computer!

    @FemininebutnotFeminist: Exactly! It is beyong me! I’m not INFJ (I’m INTJ) so, I don’t know. I think it comes from a true conviction, like you said. Also, pre-martial sex, to me, would be a sign of disloyalty to my future husband. Still, Greg whiskers explained it better than I could.

  341. Michelle

    @Feminine and Lovely

    Your future husbands will be blessed men. My marriage is wonderful now, but it took several miracles to make it so! There is so much damage done by sexual sin, and some of it lies dormant for years. My fear of rejection was part of my undoing during my dating years, I’m also INFJ. I must not be as stubborn as you, Feminine. The post-modern public school indocrtination didn’t help my moral convictions either. I wonder if INFJs are really as rare as they say? My two closest friends are also INFJ, but maybe that’s just a case of “birds of a feather..”. My husband is ENTP, and we work very well together, though I do sometimes find it exhausting when he invites strangers over. I am way, way over on the introvert scale.

  342. Anne

    @SirNemesis

    And I know…It’s not as though I am completely useless to God without a husband…it would just be kind of nice to be in the yoke with someone, rather than to pull the plow alone.
    This kind of attitude, is a MAJOR turnoff for marriage-/romance- oriented men. We want someone who wants – nay – NEEDS a guy. Not just as icing on the cake in her life, but as an integral part of her life.

    I think she is trying to defend herself against a very common criticism of marriage minded girls. We are often accused of making an idol of marriage. We are often told that we have no right to expect marriage, with the implication that we had better be content in our singleness. Sometimes it is strongly implied that unless we become content in our singleness, we will never get married, because God loves us so much that he wants us to love him even if it appears he won’t allow us to marry, and so they appear to be saying, this is a contentment test from God, and the price of failure is spinsterhood. Of course though, that’s not failure either, but clearly you must have been “called to singleness”. Aren’t you happy about that? No? Oh, well that must mean you are not content in your singleness and God will never give you a husband when you are making an idol of marriage.

  343. Cicero

    @ Anne.
    Well the scoring system doesn’t work with halves. :p
    I can’t say 2.5 INFJ, 1 INTJ and 0.5 INTP.
    So are you Ni dominant or Te dominant?

  344. donalgraeme

    @ Anne

    What you have described is a marvelously malicious philosophy. While I can appreciate the theological arguments concerning marriage and idols, that particular manifestation is vile. It basically explains away any negative outcomes for a young woman looking to marry by laying all of them at her feet. It excuses any wrongdoing by her family, or friends, or especially, the church.

  345. theasdgamer

    Hi, I was sort of a player decades ago. I was able to get quite a few women alone within an hour of meeting them and get friendly, so I know a bit about what works and how players think. I generated a _lot_ of comfort and still do (though my motives are friendlier now). (This was way back before Game was being discussed.) I could approach a woman cold during the day and be in her apartment in an hour. Women had stronger ASD back then, too. Last night I danced with a 5 whom I didn’t know who was in her twenties (I asked her to dance as she was coming off the dance floor after dancing with somebody else) and she thanked me profusely afterwards and gave me a big hug right on the dance floor; she obviously felt very comfortable immediately. All I did was look at her a little while dancing with her and chat with her a little; normally I don’t look at my dance partners–my communication is physical by leading them through the dance.

    “Wear modest and feminine clothing.” This didn’t help protect girls from me. However, immodest clothing is an advertisement for players. Players will focus on the easier targets, which are women who dress immodestly, since they don’t have a modesty inhibition. Hence, dressing modestly makes a woman less noticeable and delays approaches by players.

    LMR can pretty much be avoided by making the woman think that you will flake on her at the last minute so she will end up chasing you. This is extremely effective and women need to be aware of their own attraction and emotions or they will eagerly succumb to this. (I’m not sure if “succumb to” is the right phrase. More like “take advantage of.”)

    “He sexualizes the conversation immediately.” I never did this. Didn’t need to. I’d sexualize with kino and my eyes and facial expressions, all naturally. I could tell when a woman wanted me to touch her and when she wanted me to escalate. I can still feel that. The key is to make a woman want you to touch her and to be able to tell when she wants that. Women need to be aware of their own desires if they’re going to be able to be chaste.

    I picked up women a lot from parties–never from bars. Women always wanted to get alone with me–I only had to suggest it and they happily complied. Again, it’s up to women to recognize their own attraction if they want to remain chaste. They need to be more self-aware.

    Oh, I also picked up women on the beach. A lot of times, women go there if they want to be with men. Again, it’s up to women to be self-aware.

    “He gets a lot of female attention.” I had a lot of women friends, but didn’t have swarms at parties. I would have been undetectable to Mary’s women readers.

    “He wears funky clothing” Only at bars. I never did this at parties.

    “He has a wingman or two.” Never. Naturals don’t need wingmen.

    “He is skilled at keeping a conversation alive.” Sure, lol, but usually I got the woman talking about herself and making a huge investment of rapport. I hardly had to participate. Be self-aware and notice when a man gets you talking about yourself.

    “Use the buddy system” Best is a man who’s a natural. He can spot everybody, players and naturals. But I bet that women will ignore him when he warns them.

    “Never go to an unknown place with a man” I’d take them to their dorm rooms. This advice wouldn’t have helped them. Of course, they wanted to go there and be alone with me. It’s about being self-aware and sticking to convictions if women are to be chaste.

    “NEVER GET DRUNK” Yeah, once I “took advantage” somewhat of a woman who was drunk; her inhibitions were down and I was doing what she obviously wanted, which changed after she started to sober up. She was attracted to me–it was a case of conflicting directives in her case. Likely the alcohol helped her rationalize her actions to some degree.

    “Don’t drink at all in unsafe environments” Lol, this means anywhere where players might be, including parties. It’s so easy to move a woman outside to talk. Then it’s a matter of making her comfortable enough to go for a walk and instigating a kiss so she wants to walk with you, etc.

    “Maintain a healthy distance” Yeah, this works until her juices start flowing. A player will generate comfort and excitement to increase her attraction and she will move closer to him or want him to move closer.

    The upshot is that women who desire to remain chaste keep aware of their own desire and arousal at all times and _run away_ at the first indication that their inhibitions/convictions might be tested; alcohol will dull this awareness and dull their inhibitions/cause them to doubt their convictions/rationalize why they can ignore their convictions and weaken their ASD and LMR. Keep away from alcohol if you don’t have a mate to guard you; make sure you have a mate/reliable wingmen to guard you if you want to get a buzz on.

    Women who are in their period or just past it need to be aware that their desire for sex is high and plan accordingly to minimize their contact with players at that time if they desire to remain chaste. They need to run away from any contact with unfamiliar men; this will go against their libido and they will need to exert their will.

    One way to get in the habit of practicing self-control is to deliberately blue-ball players. You need not do this viciously in order to practice it; it can be done moderately and defensively.

  346. theasdgamer

    @ssm
    @Rollo

    ssm to rollo: “Could you help us by pointing out some things a young woman who is committed to chastity and finding a husband should look out for in order to avoid being inadvertently played?”

    I hope my “butting in” here is acceptable.

    She needs to look inside herself, not at the men, except for them making passes/being too touchy-feely. She needs to quit looking for men to express admiration for her looks. The problem is internal, essentially. She needs to avoid slut-friends, slutty media, etc. She needs to cultivate chaste friends and listen to chastity-encouraging messages from media.

    “He who walks with wise men shall be wise
    But the companion of fools shall suffer harm.”

    “Bad company corrupts good morals.”

  347. Anne

    @Cicero
    Initially I thought I was an INTP, but some of the INTP descriptions didn’t seem right to me.
    This link makes me think I am INFJ:
    INFJ vs. INTP
    Then of course, the labels I’ve seen elsewhere of Idealist vs. Architect also tend to make me think that.
    This link makes me feel less confident:
    INFJ vs INTP (I actually read this one first.)
    I think I’d need to read a good book on the subject in order to get any sort of confidence. For example, I don’t know how to tell whether I am Ni dominant or Te dominant, and while they did mention that in the second article, their examples just didn’t help me figure it out. I have a feeling I am probably INFJ, but I don’t have any confidence in that conclusion.

  348. theasdgamer

    @earl
    “When the eyes aren’t there…the guardrails come off.” redpill
    “I make it to where I want her to think that I could have my way with her.” bluepill pedestalization

    earl, you still have pedestalization issues.

    Actually, you are testing her morality. You are in the position of being the gatekeeper of both sex AND commitment. It’s a very powerful position and is an aphrodisiac to women.

  349. theasdgamer

    @ssm
    “But somehow, a girl who has no experience has to be able to suss their motives. ”

    This is an error. There are too many kinds of game for an inexperienced woman to be able to discern motives. As I said before, women need to be able to recognize their own reactions and run like hell. “Flee youthful lust.” No experience required.

  350. theasdgamer

    @Rollo
    About Krauser in the video–why does he initiate the hug? Seems effeminate. Just last night two women hugged me on the dance floor–one was a late 40s-early 50s well-preserved 7 and the other an early twenties 5. The early-twenties girl was effusively thankful to me for dancing with her and her hug was enthusiastic–boring her chest into me. Her hug was very affectionate and I feel confident that I could have pushed for a kiss. “You’re very warm and affectionate. That’s very attractive in a woman. Blah, blah, blah” [Approach with lips, kiss, then flake, then reapproach and relocate so that friends don't cockblock.]

    I’m not sure about the 7’s purpose for hugging. She may be trying to friend-zone me, but I’m married, so that’s kind of moot. Anyway, I had an indication that she cares what I think by her choice of top to wear. Normally she wears black, but on Valentines she wore pink and I made a comment about the black “thing” she normally wears and she wore her pink top the next day. It’s fun trying to figure out the ladies and playing with them.

    Anyway, a natural can always move out of the friend-zone at will, unless the girl is focused on an alpha. He always has loads of comfort from being in the friend-zone and only has to seriously instigate so that the girl reevaluates his SMV. With the comfort, there’s no problem relocating and getting alone time if he creates excitement (e.g., “There’s a girl I like and I want to talk with you about her.” or “There’s a question I want to ask you. Can we go somewhere private?”). Been there, done that.

    Maybe Krauser is attempting to create comfort with his hug, but it seemed to turn the girl off. His facial expressions did a lot more attracting and he was very successful at keeping his face close to hers, which created comfort. He’d move his head close, then back away, then back in, etc. until she showed comfort being close. He should have done that with the lip approach as well. Be playful. Get her to chase him. At the end, say, “This is moving awfully fast for me. Maybe if I get your phone no. we can slow it down.” It doesn’t have to be logical to get her cooperation.

  351. Feather Blade

    late 40s-early 50s well-preserved 7

    I’ve always found this description amusing.

    “You’re how old? Wow you look amazingly well-preserved!”
    “…Thanks. It’s all the formaldehyde I drink.”

  352. theasdgamer

    @Elspeth
    “I had the same thought. Mine didn’t sexualize the conversation and i don’t recall a break in the rapport, but the rest was eerily familiar to me.”

    Umm, we autistic types naturally break rapport frequently and can often build deep rapport pretty quickly. It probably helps us to reproduce. I never sexualized the convo with my wife or gf, but I used my lips and body language quite effectively to sexualize things. My convo skills weren’t reliable when I was younger when interacting with women; they are much better now, thank God!

    Is your husband autistic? Did he sexualize by nonverbal means? Maybe he was a natural and autistic. My kino was handholding and taking the arm, waist, or shoulder while walking. It was all just how I’d been taught. Handholding and taking the waist were signs of affection. Offering the arm was for support, while taking the shoulder was to protect, support, and provide warmth.

    Elspeth, I feel a lot of comfort from your comments. I’ll have to think about why that is. I’ve found that some women provide a lot of comfort.

  353. theasdgamer

    Here’s what I posted on the site Rollo referenced:

    ‘This article is just more nonsense that pedestalizes the princesses who have ridden the carousel and eliminates 99% of men from consideration. “Where have all the good men gone?”‘

  354. Pingback: Lightning Round – 2014/02/19 | Free Northerner

  355. Pingback: Girls conspiring to turn other girls into sluts: a good reason not to send your daughters away to college. | Sunshine Mary

  356. Anne

    @feminine but not feminist

    I have taken the internet questionnaires on several occasions. Mostly they typed me as INTP, but the description was so far off emotionally that I have trouble thinking it is right. One of the articles I linked above gave a plausible explanation for how that could have happened. That is, the test mistyped me and I am actually an INFJ. I am not totally comfortable with that explanation (INFJ doesn’t totally fit either), but I like it better than the third explanation, which is that Meyers – Briggs doesn’t work.

  357. bourchakoun

    The problem is that Game works so well that even women knowing about Game are falling for it.

    Besides sometimes a player might become your husband. I know a few who met their future wives at nightclubs. Though admittedly an Alpha-player will likely remain a (less frequent) player even in a LTR.

    On the one hand Game is something that all men should learn and in a more positive society they should be taught on how to apply Game in their loving relationships to increase happiness for both partners. However society is being engineered to go to mindless promiscuity, so most of the time game will be used to pump and dump and girls will remain carousel-riding Alpha-widows for life (at least until hitting the wall). As stated correctly by Roissy – women could change it all within a week. But I am certain that week won’t come in the next decades. I rather foresee a world of Cads, Sluts, Alpha-Widows, Cougars and lots and lots of celibate Beta-chumps and aging fattened ex-sluts.

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