When your ex-husband refuses to become your beta orbiter.

Today’s lesson for women:

If you decide to chuck a perfectly good man overboard due to your unhaaaaappiness, do not expect him to be your beta orbiter bestie.  He wants to get the heck over you after you frivorce him and maybe find himself a new woman who will actually appreciate him.

Guess who?

“When I hear stories of other divorced couples being friends with each other, I turn a little green with envy. A lot of times it’s for the kids, of course, but there seems to be a lot of “we just didn’t function well as a couple” going around. I guess it’s easier to be friendly with someone you don’t have to live with every day.

That’s not my story. I can wish it was all I want, but it doesn’t seem to be in the cards for me. It’s been almost a year since we ended things, and I can count on one hand the number of conversations we’ve had that didn’t involve the logistics of the divorce or the children.”

Saying that “we” ended things is an interesting way of putting it, by which I mean she’s lying through her teeth. This woman filed for divorce without even telling her husband that she was going to do so, but because she had gossiped about it with some other women, word got back to him before she was ready to spring the surprise on him.  He didn’t want the divorce, but it happened anyway.  Apparently she thought he was going to be her life-long emotional tampon or something:

I don’t know why or how some couples are able to settle into friendship after a divorce. I’ve certainly tried, but the results have not been good. I invited him for ice cream with the kids at the mall once, and I thought we might be crossing over into the land of friendship, but I made the fatal mistake of mentioning it.

“This is nice,” I mentioned, as our daughters were playing together in their own world. It was a little awkward, but the conversation was flowing, and much to my surprise, I realized I was actually enjoying myself a little bit. “It is,” he agreed.

“Just because we’re not married doesn’t mean I don’t want to be friends,” I said. You think I’d know by now not to say such nonsense, but I couldn’t help myself. I wanted a friendship not just for the kids, but also because there are parts of him that I genuinely enjoy — I did marry him for a reason. No such luck.

Now, the former Mrs. Erikson does have a way of collecting drooling beta orbiters:

Men, can you please stop doing this?  Those of us who are, in our own highly imperfect way, trying to straighten out the messed-up modern female herd are seriously hampered in our efforts when you give this kind of sexual attention to a woman who is not and never will be your woman.

But lo and behold, it seems like her uber-beta ex-husband, Leif, is finally getting a clue.

He just stared at me and said, “I can’t be friends.”

“What do you mean?” I cautiously asked.

“It’s all or nothing. I can’t be just friends if I can’t have you for my wife.”

And that’s basically it right there. The fundamental personality differences that made it impossible for us to have a mutually satisfying long-term marriage are now making it incredibly difficult for us to have any semblance of friendship, no matter how superficial.

Good job, Mr. Erikson!  You have finally, finally passed one of your ex-wife’s fitness tests (aka sh-t tests).  It’s a shame you couldn’t have started doing that ten years ago, but today is a new day, and by refusing to become her beta orbiter, you’ve demonstrated some higher value that made her take notice enough to write a whole column about you.

(Note: Thank you to reader Heywood Jablome for emailing me Jenny Erikson’s latest Cafe Mom article.)

156 thoughts on “When your ex-husband refuses to become your beta orbiter.

  1. Farm Boy

    My ex expected me to become a beta orbiter. I cut off all contact and it has stayed that way. I am not going to give her any benefits of marriage when she divorced me. She was shocked.

  2. Farm Boy

    It is really about letting a woman eat her cake and have it too. It really seems that modern women expect this. Old time women did not. What changed?

  3. Farm Boy

    Hey guys. It is time to pile on Mrs. Erikson.

    [ssm: I hate to write about her again, but she keeps writing about herself, and each new article seems to exemplify some manosphere concept about What's Wrong with Modern Women.

    If she continues to share her life story with the whole world via the internet, I will keep using her as a teaching tool.]

  4. swiftfoxmark2

    What gets even more amusing is that Leif is probably paying child support and alimony by way of a court order. So, she breaks up any hope of sexual contact with him, makes him pay for her lifestyle and kids because she is too unproductive to do so herself, and she demands that they be friends.

    She’s lucky all he said was that it was all or nothing. I wouldn’t have been so generous.

  5. Cicero

    “Whether in florid Impotence they speak, And, as the Prompter breathes, the Puppets squeak, Or, Eves true Spawn, and Tools of th’ ancient Toad, Half Froth, half Venom spit themselves abroad, In, Puns, or Politics, or Tales, or Lyes, Or Spite, or Smut, or Rhymes, or Blasphemies. Their Wit all see-saw, between that and this, Now high, now low, now forward, now remiss, And each herself one dull Antithesis. Amphibious Things! That acting either Part, The trifling Head, or the corrupted Heart, Bullies at Cards, and Flirts when at the Board, Now tilt like Dames, now swear like any Lord. Their Tempter thus the Rabbins have expressed, A Cherub’s Face, a Reptile all the rest. Beauty that shocks you, Parts that none will trust, Wit that must creep, and Pride that licks the Dust.”

    This poor soul personifies this.

  6. sunshinemary Post author

    I think it is not uncommon for men to beta orbit their ex-wives, either in hopes of getting back together or just out of kindness because she needs his help.

    I suppose it pays off sometimes. I read somewhere that around 30% of divorced couples still have sex with each other at least once post-divorce.

  7. Novaseeker

    It’s pretty common for the ex to expect you to be the beta orbiter after a divorce in situations where the husband is the jilted one (in situations where the wife is the jilted one, the dynamic is different).

    For me, the key has been doing what I need to do to maintain a good relationship with my son. So, it’s better that me and his mother be on good terms than on bad ones, and that we are comfortable talking with each other and not distant. However, there are boundaries. I do not socialize with her, at all, period. She has tried to push that – inviting me on vacations, or to do movie trips and stuff like that “as a family”, but that crosses the boundary, and I enforce that boundary. The only exception is Thanksgiving dinner, which we generally have together.

    My sense is that once the ex gets involved with someone else – if she ever does – that tendency to try to push boundaries dissipates (because the guy, or in some cases the girl, she is with doesn’t like it, either), but as long as she is single and unattached she will have tendency to try to get the friend benefits from you outside the context of being married to you. This is because, for the most part, ex-wives still love their ex-husbands in a non-romantic, non-sexual way, as they did at the end of the marriage before her sexual and romantic attraction died, and so from their perspective it seems like a natural and harmless segue. Most men don’t work that way (i.e., in terms of having an easy time being a platonic friend with a woman you used to regularly have sex with), whereas it seems that with women once a guy falls off the “F list”, it’s as effortless for her to “just be friends” with the guy as it is unthinkable for her ever to consider him in a sexual way again.

  8. Velvet

    Oh, look, mommy’s so – old. She’s not hideous or anything, but she, like so many others who do the same use em and lose em thing with their perfectly decent husbands have WAAAYYYY overestimated their marketability. Talk about a one way ticket to spinsterhood. Javier Bardem is not coming to “love” you, Sledge, get a clue. On the other hand, she’s going to lose her shit when her husband lands someone 10 years younger with about 10 more IQ points where they count – in her bra – and the kids will love her because she’s fun and hip and not as inclined to leave them with a baby sitter to go screw around on their dad. JK, but seriously? Someone needs to tell her, that’s gonna be brutal….

  9. deti

    When a wife frivorces a husband, she’s essentially telling him “let’s just be friends”. Men should understand that ex wives and ex girlfriends don’t want to “be friends”. When an ex wife does this, or says “I hope we can be friends”, friendship isn’t really what she’s looking for.

    She is really looking for a form of “closure” so she can feel less guilty for what she did to her ex husband and the kids. His friendship with her means she’s absolved and forgiven of her wrongdoing.

    She’s really looking to keep him on a long, long leash – far, far away when she doesn’t want or need him; but generally available when she does need him.

    She’s really looking to keep him around for help with the kids when she needs it – “take the kids to your place so I can bring Harley McBadboy back to my place if I want to or feel like it”.

    So it’s not about friendship at all. It’s not about helping him when he needs it. It’s about making her feel better; and about helping her when she wants/needs it.

    [ssm: As long-time readers may recall, I've mentioned before that my husband and I separated for a while many years ago because I asked him to move out. Now, I still loved him and wanted to be with him, but in addition to all that, it occurred to me for the first time how much I really needed him. One day I locked my keys in the house as I was leaving for work, and I couldn't figure out how to get into the house, so I had to call him to rescue me. After several other incidents like that, I realized that I had better be seriously prepared not only to support myself but to take care of every aspect of life with no help from him. The thought scared me half to death. Luckily, we ended up reconciling anyway.

    But here is the problem: I think I was not unique in being rather dependent on my man, but many women have an over-inflated belief in their own abilities to be Strong-N-Independent and they don't realize what it's really going to be like once they kick him out. In addition to that, they see other women kick their husbands out, but those men continue indefinitely to orbit their ex-wives, helping them clean the leaves out of the gutter in the fall, giving her car a jump when she has a dead battery, lending her twenty bucks when she needs it, and so on, and they get the idea that this is just how it's supposed to be. You kick him out, but he continues to do for you.

    And the problem is, even if a man doesn't want to beta orbit his ex-wife, if he has children with her, then he really wants to do those things so that his children's lives will be okay when they are with their mom. So women chuck their men but then still use them for emotional support or physical labor or whatever, and this sets a bad example by creating an added incentive for other women to divorce their husbands, too. And it's not an easy problem to solve, but I would say at the very least, men shouldn't give emotional or sexual attention to an ex-wife.]

  10. Farm Boy

    The fundamental personality differences that made it impossible for us to have a mutually satisfying long-term marriage are now making it incredibly difficult for us to have any semblance of friendship, no matter how superficial.

    I wonder what those personality differences are?

  11. Eidolon

    It really is kind of sad that she was so naive. Feminism seems to make women really coarse in some ways and incredibly naive in others. Perhaps by trying to become men they lose the ability to understand men, thinking that since they engage in some of the behaviors of men that they know what men are like or how men think.

    I hadn’t thought of it before, and it probably wasn’t very necessary in the past, but I guess part of the Biblical command to “teach the younger women to love their husbands” may be to teach them what happens if they don’t — if you reject him, you may get some alms and not starve, sure, but you can’t have any other aspect of your husband anymore. It’s amazing that women don’t understand this. It seems that feminism is very effective at teaching people to believe things that aren’t true and not believe things that are obvious.

    [ssm: Yes, excellent point.]

    It’s also funny how feminists (like Friedan) look down on housewives of the past as being naive and airheaded. Yet the least educated, poorest, most superstitious and subservient among them could’ve told you what happens when you reject your husband, while educated, sassy, girl-powered Jenny seems honestly surprised. It takes a lot of education to be that stupid.

  12. deti

    Nova:

    Is your ex wife remarried? It would seem even more odd for her to ask you to accompany them on vacations or outings “as a family” if her new husband also tags along. I’m not divorced, but I’m with you that none of that is appropriate, remarriage or no.

  13. The Ronin

    This woman must have a BPD, she has no conception at all what’s she’s done to him.

    [ssm: Yes. When I replied to Heywood Jablome to thank him for sending me this article, I noted the same thing; she seems completely incapable of understanding how her husband might feel or his perspective on things. It's like she sees him as an appendage of herself or something, not asa man with his own feelings and desires which might be different than hers. Unfortunately, intense self-absorption seems to be not an unusual trait in modern women.]

    I’ve been through this “Frivorce/Eat,Pray,Love” crap myself after a 24 year marriage and it’s brutal. My hat’s off to him for setting her straight on the whole no “WB’s” for “XW’s”( Wive’s Benefits for X Wives) this soon, many guys early on will hang on as doormats and emotional tampons for the X wife hoping she’ll come home. The script she’s reading from seldom ends well and she’s in for a shock in regards to dating, men in her age group are dating women in their mid to late 20′s….

  14. deti

    “Men, can you please stop doing this? Those of us who are, in our own highly imperfect way, trying to straighten out the messed-up modern female herd are seriously hampered in our efforts when you give this kind of sexual attention to a woman who is not your woman.”

    Agreed 1000%. Once again, the time-honored formula.

    1. A woman posting selfies in which her face is literally smack dab up against The Wall.

    2. Selfies posted on social media with clear intent on attention whoring.

    3. Men dutifully oblige talking about how hot she is, and offering numerous “likes”.

    4. Woman basks and glories in her attention.

    Jenny Erikson is not “hot”. If she’s not against The Wall, it’s clearly in sight. Yet all these responding men would have sex with her if given the chance. Never mind that she’d never so much as let any of them buy her a drink, much less f*ck her.

  15. sunshinemary Post author

    Consider this comment on the Cafe Mom article:

    My ex and I are GREAT friends. Honestly, real friends.He comes to every family event, we talk on the phone and txt when we’re bored, not just about kids. We have even been known to just go have lunch together.He still goes to my parent’s house, and he has had bbq over at my in-laws house.Just like any friendship, we have boundaries. We don’t talk about my marriage or his girlfriends. As long as they’re not serious enough to meet the kids, I couldnt care less who he’s with.It’s not impossible for SOME people to still be friends after a divorce. I don’t know if it’s right for y’all, but I know it has been great for us.

    This seems unwise to me. I can’t believe her current husband doesn’t mind her doing lunch dates and texting for fun with her ex-husband.

  16. Just Saying

    @SSM: “but she keeps writing about herself,”

    A woman’s favorite topic – herself…

    Ladies, if you remove the potential/promise for sex, your company is more of a pain than anything else. And if we broke up – sex is off the table… Why is this so difficult to grasp?

  17. deti

    “[ssm: I hate to write about her again, but she keeps writing about herself, and each new article seems to exemplify some manosphere concept about What's Wrong with Modern Women.

    If she continues to share her life story with the whole world via the internet, I will keep using her as a teaching tool.]

  18. deti

    I don’t see why you shouldn’t keep writing about Jenny Erikson. She is living, breathing proof that everything the manosphere talks about is 100% correct. What makes her even more interesting is that she was a married woman who claims to be a Christian, and has two kids by her frivorced ex husband.

    Her story has literally everything the manosphere talks about, from alpha widowhood, to marrying a beta orbiter she was never attracted to, to attempting an egalitarian relationship, to frivorce, to post-divorce dating and attention whoring, to history revisionism.

  19. gsjockey

    @ deti
    “She is really looking for a form of “closure” so she can feel less guilty for what she did to her ex husband and the kids. His friendship with her means she’s absolved and forgiven of her wrongdoing…. So it’s not about friendship at all. It’s not about helping him when he needs it. It’s about making her feel better; and about helping her when she wants/needs it.”

    Shack. This is exactly correct, and I witnessed this same behavior from my ex.

    GS Jockey

  20. imnobody00

    I had an experience like this with my ex-girlfriend, the one that got away, the only one I really loved, the one that dumped me in a humiliating way without telling me her reasons. By common acquaintances, I discovered two years later that she had dumped me because she was going to marry a Frenchman.

    (I guess most men here have some woman who helped discover them the red pill, There should be a word for this)

    Anyway, six years after dumping me and cutting all contact with me appeared out of the blue “wanting to be friends with me” and talking like I was his beta orbiter. Un-fucking-believable. I said “No, thanks”.

    I think most divorces happens when the woman has lost attraction and wants to LJBF the husband.

  21. deti

    “We don’t talk about my marriage or his girlfriends. As long as they’re not serious enough to meet the kids, I couldnt care less who he’s with.”

    She’s OK being friends with her ex husband, as long as she gets to control the parameters of the friendship. One wonders if the ex of the woman who wrote that comment got to pass judgment on whether her new husband was acceptable to “meet the kids” before she remarried.

  22. Eidolon

    @deti

    Don’t forget she also is a conservative activist. So she has nearly every outward symbol of traditionalism possible, yet her behavior is exactly the same as a liberal, atheist feminist’s would be. Her feminist programming is far stronger than her faith or her politics. (No one responded to my example of this in the book club thread, but I elaborated on a pop culture example of this there.)

    That’s why she makes such a perfect example; she shows that it’s the inculcated feminist attitude, not the political leanings or the claimed religious beliefs, that really determine feminist behavior. She shows why it’s so critical for men to be careful — because a woman who claims to be the opposite of the frivorcee cannot be judged on her claimed beliefs but only on her behavior and attitude.

  23. Bike Bubba

    Although my parents parted ways for decent reasons–domestic violence and my dad quickly established relationships that, ahem, parted them for Biblical reasons–it seems to me that in any decent relationship, divorce is a wound that simply doesn’t heal.

    And + a bunch to those who note that when a lady tells a man “let’s just be friends”, that doesn’t mean that friendship will result. A few people have told me that, and I’m in contact with zero of them–but on the other hand, a LOT of people who were always friends.

    George Jones says some accurate things about divorce here: yes, the love is mixed with anger and hate, but 31 years after my parents’ divorce, I still see hints that my dad is not over my mom.

  24. Michelle

    I read this lady’s blog for the first time a few weeks ago. At first I thought the commenters here were talking about Leif Erikson the explorer, then someone said Jenny Erikson and I googled it. :) I can’t understand her mentality, it’s like she thinks there are good men waiting on every street corner. People aren’t disposable or interchangeable, especially the parent of one’s children!

    In one of her articles she talks about how he bought her a new coffee maker after she left him. I’m glad to hear he’s acting more like a real man.

    [ssm: I have my suspicion that Leif may have discovered the manosphere. There were so many articles written about her in the sphere after Dalrock broke the story, and several were directed to Mr. Erikson, trying to explain to him what had really gone wrong and why and offering him some decent advice. Someone should compile a list of all the articles that were written (Timber St. James wrote an excellent (not Xtian, though) one, as I recall); they'd make a great resource for teaching-by-real-world-example.]

  25. deti

    “Don’t forget she also is a conservative activist. So she has nearly every outward symbol of traditionalism possible, yet her behavior is exactly the same as a liberal, atheist feminist’s would be.”

    Yeah. I keep noting this: In terms of sexual conduct, the vast, vast majority of professing Christians have wholesale adopted and live by the standards of the dominant, ambient culture. Christians are having premarital sex, engaging in serial monogamy, and frivorcing pretty much like the nonChristian culture they’re living in. A few are having extramarital affairs. It’s not something that’s going to change for a long time, I’m afraid.

  26. Farm Boy

    Ladies, if you remove the potential/promise for sex, your company is more of a pain than anything else.

    My, how ladies have fallen.

  27. Too Much Information

    I can feel my testicles shrink up when I read those comments.

    “@JennyErikson May I say, you are adorable.—
    Bill Polhemus (@Illbay) December 29, 2013″

    Good god.

    The “we ended things” is even more priceless. This woman is so self delusional it’s shocking.
    Good for her husband to stand up. Will be better when he decides he doesn’t want her at all. Then do what he can to make sure his daughters don’t grow up too crazy.

  28. zykos

    Reading the comments on that article, this caught my attention:

    My ex and I are good friends, we had our relationship in high school when we were very immature and wanted to follow the crowd. When our daughter was born we followed what was expected of us then realized it wasn’t what either of us had actually wanted. It was a mutual split because there was nothing romantic left in our relationship and now we’re both happily remarried and will have 5 kids between us (including our shared daughter) who all get together and play on weekends., go trick or treating, etc.

    This all sounds wonderful, the way she puts it. But she’s obviously too selfish to realize what she did to her firstborn daughter. The kids has 4 half-siblings (let’s assume they’re split half-half in both households), all of which have one stable home, where they have one “real” mommy and one “real” daddy, and each have their “real” sibling. The little girl though is going back and forth, between two households but she doesn’t really belong in either. Anyone wants to take bets as to what sort of issues this girl will develop growing up? This woman is friends with her by necessity, so that their daughter may have at least a fighting chance. This is what happens when two people sacrifice their kid’s life for their own happiness.

  29. Dalrock

    Spot on analysis SSM. I would point out that her beta orbiters offer comfort but also keep her frustrated as well. Why can’t she find a good man when everyone knows she deserves the best? What is wrong with men! Why won’t they commit!

    In a multitude of ways, Jenny is in a trap of her own careful creation. Her career as a professional divorcée and the realities of the SMP for 30 something divorced mothers means that she will be the (manosphere) gift that keeps on giving for many years to come.

    Regarding the general topic of turning husbands into beta orbiters, a little over three years ago I wrote a post about a woman my wife spoke with who was horrified that her husband would no longer keep their regular lunch dates once she announced she was divorcing him. How could he do that to her? He was her best friend!

    [ssm: Can you drop the link here to that post? I don't remember ever reading it. I find those kinds of real-world anecdotes to be extremely useful teaching tools. TempestTCup, who runs the Red Pill Women subreddit, wrote a post recently about how hard it is to break through modern women's delusions, and I find that showing them real-life examples of how bad the consequences of divorce are can be really helpful.]

  30. Lee Lee Bug

    Totally off topic, but here’s an idea for a future post.

    My male coworkers and I were scanning CCN online today while we waited for a meeting to start and this article popped up: http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/27/health/youn-butt-enhancement/index.html?hpt=hp_bn13

    It has a link to this 20-year-old woman’s Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/jenLselter
    Apparently Miss Selter makes a living taking selfies of her buttocks and posting them all over the place. Her butt supposedly rivals Kim Kardashian’s.

    It led to a discussion about how the way women of all shapes and sizes are addicted to taking selfies. One co-worker, a single guy in his 30s, said that whenever he meets a woman he checks out her Facebook page and “I’ll usually see more skin than I’d see after two months of dating.” Another 20-something-year-old said it’s a huge turnoff.

    Maybe you could write a Titus 2 woman post on the subject as a warning to the young single women who read your blog.

    [ssm: Oh, that's a good idea, thanks for the suggestion.]

  31. Farm Boy

    This is what happens when two people sacrifice their kid’s life for their own happiness.

    But in how many cases is their happiness enhanced after the deed?

  32. Farm Boy

    he checks out her Facebook page and “I’ll usually see more skin than I’d see after two months of dating.”

    They are just being Disney Princesses, after all.

  33. Farm Boy

    horrified that her husband would no longer keep their regular lunch dates once she announced she was divorcing him.

    As I recall, she listened to the “whispers”.

    Women complain about the evil that men do to them…

  34. Michelle

    I haven’t had a male friend since I was about 7. We have mutual married couple friends, but that’s different. Is it normal or even possible for women to be friends with men? I know lots of women who SAY they have guy friends.

    My husband is certainly my friend, but he’s not JUST a friend. Jenny must think its possible.

  35. CK

    My take on it, after reading a lot of her posts and analyses of them here and elsewhere, is that the point of her article is “look how much he still wants me (!!) He can’t ‘just be friends,’ he wants ‘all or nothing.’ ” She is the center of her own universe and an extreme positive thinker (I once thought that was a good quality), so that would be the spin I think a person like her would put on his statement. It proves again to herself how absolutely fantastic and desirable she is.

  36. Pingback: The Saga of Jenny Erikson: Sunshine Mary Edition | Malcolm the Cynic

  37. Martel

    Just curious, but does anyone know if Ms. Erikson is in any way aware that j’eriksonned is about to become a verb in this corner of the internet?

    [ssm: And it isn't just this corner of the internet anymore. If you google "Jenny Erikson," on the first page of returns - in addition to her own blog and Cafe Mom articles - are posts by ROK, Dalrock, and me. I don't see how she can not be aware of it at this point, yet she keeps right on writing, with no improvement in her almost complete lack of self-analysis. Even if she never takes a critical look at what she's doing and makes some changes, she is providing teaching material and examples of what not to do for a bunch of us, thereby helping other men and women learn to make better choices.]

    This article ( http://thestir.cafemom.com/love_sex/168696/what_the_promarriage_culture_gets ) seems to show that she doesn’t even have the faintest cluse as to how anyone might even want to criticize her behavior, let alone put her up as an exemplar of damn near everything that’s wrong with modern American women.

    And even though she didn’t do what it said she should and had pre-maritial sex, “purity culture” is the reason she married the wrong guy and subsequently got divorced.

    http://thestir.cafemom.com/love_sex/165776/how_purity_culture_pressured_me

    The lack of self-awareness astounds me, so I can’t help but wonder if she’s even encountered critics such as SSM, Dalrock, or Runs on Magic.

  38. Bike Bubba

    You know, I saw Mrs. Leif Erikson’s comments on that yesterday, and seriously contemplated leaving a note like the one I left here….and thought better of it, since I’m pretty sure she’s got no desire to listen to Biblical counsel. Pretty sad for someone who professes to be a Christian, and praying for her and like-mindless men and women who think that you can treat marriage like a game.

  39. Timber St. James

    (Can we all agree to give Jack the Pun of Day award for “Turning over a new Leif”?)

    As I’ve written about in the past (although I don’t have a manosphere-specific blog), what Jenny had was not love, it was symbiotic narcissism. (What Leif had was not love, either, but beta supplication with a dash of narcissism.) Jenny and Leif (but Jenny by far) had a pre-imagined life script that they found a supporting actor for.

    I’ll go out on a limb here and guess that one of those two spent a lot of family dinner time not engaging with family but with her Twitter account.

    Jenny Erikson is what happens a woman deeply needs the Matrix to be real, and her entire identity is threatened when she actually has to deal with a reality in which she isn’t The One.

  40. FuzzieWuzzie

    To put the best spin on all this, we have to thank Jenny Erikson. She is the gift that keeps on giving, providing fodder for blogs.
    I now have to wonder haow many wives “friendzone” their husbands while contining to remain married.
    Leif did the right thing. He set a boundary. How many ex-husbands are going over to the old family house, doing all the yard work on Saturday, so that the ex-wife can go out on the town that night?

  41. Amanda

    It is really about letting a woman eat her cake and have it too.

    It is. And I realize that but for the grace of God go I, but I have to say it is *shocking* to me that she doesn’t see this. She was very public about the way she left her husband, was even disciplined by her church over it (which almost never happens), and yet writes stuff like this. I don’t understand how she doesn’t see what this looks like to others — and how it makes her look. Apparently she must believe that everyone shares (or should share!) her very modern sensibilities. Btw, I know I’m a woman, and perhaps it’s catty to say so, but objectively I don’t find her very pretty. I’m kind of surprised she is getting any orbiters. Perhaps I have only seen poor photos of her, though.

    On selfies:

    There is even a super annoying quasi-song topping the charts now about them lol. That valley girl voice “I think I’ll take a selfie!” Blech.

  42. Timber St. James

    Leif, here’s what’s helped me: if your woman calls you an asshole approximately once per day, you’re doing it right.

    “But TSJ, that’d be terrible, Jenny has never called me an asshole.”

    I know, brother, I know.

  43. Martel

    @ SSM: I just did a Bing search, and the first thing that came up after her Cafe Mom and profile pages is “The Most Abominable Christian Wife on the Internet” by Runson Magic. So you’re right, she’s got to somehow be aware.

    But I’m sure the Hamster has just declared us to be haters who “don’t understaaand” that Christianity means nothing about Scripture and everything about “following your heart” so we can safely be dismissed.

  44. earl

    If daddy and mommy become friends…guess which part of the family starts to develop false hope.

    [ssm: Ah, Earl, that's such a good - and terribly, terribly sad - point.]

  45. deti

    The Churchian Commandments:

    1. The Oprah is a jealous god. Thou shalt have no gods before the Oprah.
    2. Thou shalt not judge.
    3. Thou shalt not generalize.
    4. Thou shalt be true to thyself.
    5. Thou shalt follow thy heart.
    6. Thou shalt love all who seek it.
    7. Thou shalt accept statements of repentance and regret without examining conduct for consistency with said statements.
    8. Thou shalt provide for, and offer aid and comfort to, the baby mama and the frivorcee.
    9. Thou shalt observe the Saturday, and keep it set apart for Girls Nights Out.
    10. Thou shalt not covet anything belonging to a woman less hot than thou.

  46. Martel

    @ Deti: Your commandments are perfectly acceptable except for certain caveats (and what’s a commandment without a caveat?):

    “2. Thou shalt not judge” except for anyone you might suspect of being sexists, sizeists, homophobes, ageists, Christianists, racists, and anyone who criticizes a woman attemtpting to criticize any woman trying to live up to 5. Such folks can be judged without mercy.

    “3. Thou shalt not generalize” except for white Christians.

    “4. Thou shalt be true to thyself” unless you like hunting, building a business, protecting the unborn, or promoting Biblican Christianity.

    5. See 4.

    6. See 2.

    7. Unless such statements come from the folks listed in 2.

    Other than that, great job.

  47. DrTorch

    Leif’s response was definitely in the right direction, but it still sounded pretty weak to me.

    [ssm: Baby steps, sir. He's taking baby steps, but in the right direction.]

    He still gives the impression that she’s on his pedestal: He can’t stand to be near her w/ being her husband. He pines for her continually. And she’s repelled by it still (except for the strokes it provides her wounded ego).

    He didn’t give any discipline. Now I know I’d have done it wrong, b/c I’d have said something like, “No we can’t be friends, because you’re a whore. A lying c*** who won’t live up to her commitment. You disgust me, and I certainly don’t want to be friends.”

    I’d have said goodbye to my daughters then and left.

  48. Bike Bubba

    The sequence of her comments is interesting, as her post about her dress that “always gets her drinks” (watch out for her on I-5 and I-15, I guess) was set at a campaign event sponsored by the Log Cabin Republicans. So no, she did NOT become pro-homosexual marriage because of her divorce–at the time, she was still gushing publicly over her husband. And her posts gushing over her husband seem to be contradicted by her claim that her marriage was somehow awful.

    My take here is that she’s the girl who always needs attention and will do what it takes to get it, and she’s seriously in need of someone close enough to tell her that she’s out of line and making no sense. I give her 6 months to publicly announce she’s a Democrat if this doesn’t happen.

  49. earl

    “My take here is that she’s the girl who always needs attention and will do what it takes to get it, and she’s seriously in need of someone close enough to tell her that she’s out of line and making no sense.”

    @sdigda I don't even read the comments. People can be so mean. Funny thing is that all they do is up my numbers. *shrug*— Jenny Erikson (@JennyErikson) February 26, 2014

    [ssm: And the thing is, she may be refusing to read the comments that would help her learn and grow as a woman, but her life is still helping others learn to be better women even while she herself continues on in her foolishness. Already today thousands of people have read this post of mine, and I don't have even a fraction of the web traffic that a site like ROK has, which as also written about her. She can refuse to see, but her life example which she openly shares, is being used to open other people's eyes and teach them. God can use our foolishness for His own good purposes.]

  50. Chris

    Jenny dear, time for a bit of a hit with the cluebat. Kiddo.
    1. You were good looking. I can still see that. And you are skinnyish (need full body shot to see that). But you now look to my eyes around 40,. not 30. You are no longer cute.
    2. No man with balls or a spine will beta orbit those whom dumped him. I will help those who I have friend listed Iand that list is long) but there is a one way door when sex is on the table: you are either courting and married or you are out and will not be contacted. Because men fall in love HARD (well this one does) and when you say no we have have learned to cut all contact, apart from kids.
    3. If you were married and separated and want him back, you better be prepared to change. (as should he — I’m aware why SSM separated and no one would call that illicit). Fix your attitude as much as your butt, teeth and hair.

    Because, sister, Leif is going to move on and your internet betas will not remain. Repent and reconcile while you can — of your churchian princessity. I’m fairly sure you read here.

    Because I would tell Leif to shun you if you are sexing up your dates. The window for reconciliation is shutting. And your children are the ones who are being damaged by your dating.

  51. Feminist Whisperer

    Ungh – this was hard to read – I did the whole beta orbiter to my ex for about a year….good for Leif – proud of him

  52. earl

    From what I’ve seen she’s okay looking physically. But her character drops her into the 1 or 2 category.

  53. Farm Boy

    If daddy and mommy become friends…guess which part of the family starts to develop false hope.

    When I was having marital troubles, my 6 year old stepson would bring myself and my wife together and suggest a hug. He knew who was causing the trouble, but since she was the mother, and I the step dad, he had to go with her. I wonder how it affected him…

  54. deti

    “she was still gushing publicly over her husband. And her posts gushing over her husband seem to be contradicted by her claim that her marriage was somehow awful.”

    Typical history revisionism. During the marriage to betaboy, all is well. She’s “happy” and “we’re all doing fine”. After she files because of “unhappiness” or “irreconcilable differences” or “I love him but I’m not in love with him”, that’s when all the bad stuff comes out. He was a terrible husband. He didn’t care about meeeee. He didn’t support the kids and me. He didn’t earn enough money. He sat on his ass watching TV while I did everything. He is to blame for everything that went wrong because he wasn’t nice and kind to me. He didn’t pray hard enough. He didn’t lead me (where I wanted to go). He didn’t go to church enough.

    He didn’t. He wasn’t. He wouldn’t. He couldn’t.

  55. Farm Boy

    Perhaps she should take a selfie holding a sammich. Then post a caption, ” I will make you want more”

  56. feeriker

    Don’t forget she also is a conservative activist. So she has nearly every outward symbol of traditionalism possible, yet her behavior is exactly the same as a liberal, atheist feminist’s would be. Her feminist programming is far stronger than her faith or her politics. (No one responded to my example of this in the book club thread, but I elaborated on a pop culture example of this there.)

    I can’t remember who it was ‘ round here who said that a “‘Conservative Christian’ woman is nothing but an anti-abortion feminist,” but that statement completely sums up the truth, especially for those for whom Reich-wing politics is obviously their god.

    I’ve observed enough of these women (and their equally disgusting husbands and beta orbiters) in action inside the various churchian franchises I’ve affiliated with in the past to formulate an ironclad rule that hasn’t failed me yet: never, never. EVER take these women’s “Christianity” at face value. It’s nothing but a facade of convenience to give pseudo-moral, pseudo-spiritual cover to their self-serving political and personal agendas. Unfortunately, as transparent and shallow as this cover is, too many self-deluded and delusional beta orbiters lap up this nonsense as if it was mother’s milk.

    Jenny Erikson, while an example of this type of woman, is an extremely poor example, a low-IQ-wattage, inarticulate, unpolished amateur. That she has any type of committed following says more about the intellectual and emotional caliber of the men in her orbit than it does about her.

  57. alcestiseshtemoa

    deti

    February 27, 2014 at 1:34 pm

    The Churchian Commandments:

    1. The Oprah is a jealous god. Thou shalt have no gods before the Oprah.
    2. Thou shalt not judge.
    3. Thou shalt not generalize.
    4. Thou shalt be true to thyself.
    5. Thou shalt follow thy heart.
    6. Thou shalt love all who seek it.
    7. Thou shalt accept statements of repentance and regret without examining conduct for consistency with said statements.
    8. Thou shalt provide for, and offer aid and comfort to, the baby mama and the frivorcee.
    9. Thou shalt observe the Saturday, and keep it set apart for Girls Nights Out.
    10. Thou shalt not covet anything belonging to a woman less hot than thou.

    LOL!

  58. Bike Bubba

    I am remember back in “bright college days” (cue the Tom Lehrer song), I had an epiphany that when a girl wasn’t responding, just walk on. Not too much later, I married Mrs. Bubba.

    I’m not a huge one for everything “game”, as y’all know, but there certainly is something to recognizing the signs. And am praying for Mrs. Erikson that she recognizes God’s Word in this matter.

    [ssm: Yes. I said this on the other post I wrote about her, but I do ask my readers to pray for the Eriksons, especially their children, but also the parents. Who knows what miracles God may do if we ask Him?]

  59. sunshinemary Post author

    Think how far Leif has come from just a few months ago, when he bought his ex-wife a new Keurig after she had told him he could have the one from their marital home and then demanded it back from him.

    Leif, if by some strange chance you should happen to read this: keeping taking those baby steps toward autonomous personhood! You do not exist to serve your ex-wife’s petulant demands. Your priorities are, in order of importance, sir:

    1. Love the Lord your God and serve Him alone.
    2. Love and take care of your little girls. I am sure you are a very good father.
    3. Take care of yourself. It is not wrong and selfish to take care of yourself so that you can do a good job of #1 and #2 on this list.

  60. Nathan

    Every thing Jenny is doing makes her uglier and uglier And makes one question her maturity. Is she mature enough to be a mother. Social media should end after high school.

  61. Farm Boy

    Social media should end after high school.

    You are thinking like a guy. Which Mrs. Erikson does not have.

    Perhaps this is the problem.

  62. Elspeth

    That woman is insufferable. I don’t know how her husband manages it, really.

    @swiftfoxmark2:

    I too notice that Mrs. Erikson’s weight and look have improved markedly over the past year or so. But every woman I’ve ever met who frivorced her husband either got into tip top shape right beforehand or followed up the separation by getting into shape and staying that way at least long enough to snag another man.

    And almost (though not all) every married woman I know displays obvious incredulity when I say that I work so hard to stay in decent shape because I want to look good for my husband.
    Single women never discount the need for a married woman to take care of herself for her man.

  63. FuzzieWuzzie

    SSM, Leif will probably have the most difficult time with point 3. Men in his position are down on theselves. He has experienced rejection in the worst way possible.

  64. Bike Bubba

    Regarding whether his response was weak or not, it’s hard to tell from a second hand account, but consider that she “needs” to go public with his response–”no, if we can’t be married, we can’t be friends.” No scene, no “Anglo-Saxon verbiage”, just the message that he can’t trust a woman who broke her vows to him with his heart.

    It’s subtle, but there; the next part that he didn’t have to say is “king me”. But since she’s complaining vociferously about it, she knows.

    I could be wrong, but he just might be putting on a clinic in game here.

  65. AJ Sena

    I’ve experienced another kind of testing by a woman. Years ago when I was a much weaker man, I was involved with a woman who had to be in control of everything. This particular woman was raised by a single mother, who then abandoned her in her teen years to pursue a alternative lifestyle. My gf had to drop out of high school, get her GED, and work temp jobs to support herself. She basically raised herself and get enough clerical work to pay for rent and buy groceries. Despite her neglectful childhood and despite being an atheist, she had an amazing sense of morality but her trust for the world was basically at nil.

    Whereas I used to yield everything to her, I started to mature emotionally and I asserted myself in our relationship. None of it went over well. She saw my behavior as emotionally abusive and we broke up. That was merely my faint initial attempts at the masculine claiming of a woman. I do it even more assertively now and this same behavior, my taking control and setting boundaries, has been described by other women as extremely loving and comforting.

    Some women, despite being good people in every other respect, are far too damaged and wounded, and they react badly to loving, natural male-female dynamics. The best thing you can do is walk away, and it took me too long to realize that.

  66. Velvet

    Single women never discount the need for a married woman to take care of herself for her man.

    lol, this. That doesn’t mean sw is going to share this with mw, but no, she never discounts it.

    I have a (gag) headshot from my only ever press kit, and I’m like “I’d date her!…”. It’s amazing what we’ll do when we’re trying to get hired for the job we want. Too bad so many wives want to be protected by civil service rules minimum performance standards.

  67. Velvet

    [ssm: Yes. I said this on the other post I wrote about her, but I do ask my readers to pray for the Eriksons, especially their children, but also the parents. Who knows what miracles God may do if we ask Him?]

    Agreed. Reading anything by or about her puts me in the worst humor, prayer is definitely in order for all concerned.

  68. Just Saying

    When it comes to women, she has to know that you are with her, because she is the best offer you are getting, not the ONLY offer… When she thinks she is your ONLY offer – she is out the door… So make sure that she sees that you have other options, when it comes to women, if you want things to last.

    She has to feel that she is working to keep you and she is winning over other (younger, and prettier) women. If you aren’t giving her that – she will find another guy who does.

  69. Farm Boy

    Mrs. Erikson is using the “face-down eyes-up” pose that makes chicks look more appealing. Perhaps she knows this, or maybe she is lucky.

  70. JDG

    Jenny Erikson @JennyErikson
    Going out tonight. Will this do? #ShamelessBathroomSelfie

    Bill Polhemus @Illbay
    @JennyErikson May I say, you are adorable.

    BH @diverbh
    @JennyErikson yes.

    J Kane @J_Kane
    @JennyErikson smokin!

    Thought Generator ॐ @C0nsciousBeing
    @JennyErikson if it doesn’t, whoever you’re with is either blind or dead or both lol

    You know it would really suck if it turned out that Ellie was right about men all along (though she would still be wrong about women).

    Michelle
    February 27, 2014 at 12:11 pm
    I read this lady’s blog for the first time a few weeks ago.

    la-dy [ley-dee]
    1. a woman who is refined, polite, and well-spoken
    2. a woman of high social position or economic class

    I fefuse to consider this woman (and most Western females) a lady.

    Don’t forget she also is a conservative activist.

    One more reason I can not identify myself as a conservative. What on earth is she conserving?

    Women complain about the evil that men do to them…

    Is it me or does it seem like many women enjoy this? It’s as if they like that they are wronged (imagined or not) so they can complain about it. I suspect it has something to do with getting attention.

  71. Farm Boy

    I suspect it has something to do with getting attention.

    The polite demur ladies of old were not attention whores.

    Is being an attention whore the natural state of women?

  72. margaret59

    It’s not like I don’t know how some women are..I am a woman myself. Even so, I cannot believe that she actually said “we called it quits”? Really? Just own it..you chose it, you ended it and now you expect him to be friends?? To put it in Catholic, almost swearing terms..HMMOG! Are you insane?

    I am clearly overusing question marks. I think that is a venial sin..one must overuse exclamation points in order to commit a mortal sin. :-)

  73. JDG

    Is being an attention whore the natural state of women?

    If natural = fallen then I would say yes and many other baser manifestations as well.

  74. earl

    “Really? Just own it..you chose it, you ended it and now you expect him to be friends?? To put it in Catholic, almost swearing terms..HMMOG! Are you insane?”

    Confession does that for us Catholics. Teaches us to own up to our sins.

  75. hurting

    For the record, men and women can not be friends in the first place except as allowed by a ridiculously vague definition of the word friend.

    Spouses are by definition, not friends, they are spouses. To use the term friend to describe one’s spouse does injury to the term spouse.

    Suffice to say that any man who would befriend a woman who divorced him is a sacless wonder of epic proportion. (Note: Even civility between spouses for the sake of children risks the danger that immoral behavior be given the appearance of sanction.)

  76. ricosuaveguapo

    If I didn’t know better, I would swear “Jenny Erikson” was a pseudonym of some red pill individual who has created this persona to prove a point. The fact that she is indeed real just makes it that much more delicious.

  77. FuzzieWuzzie

    Farm Boy, “Is being an attention whore the natural state of women?”
    I don’t think so. I think it is an obvious sign of immaturity. The polite ladies of yore would agree.

  78. FuzzieWuzzie

    Either in the original post or in a comment upthread, SSM asked that men stop being beta orbiters. The problem lies in ignorance on the part of the orbiters. They just don’t know and nobody’s going to tell them, certainly not the person whose ego they are inflating.

  79. FuzzieWuzzie

    What bothers me so much about all this is Jenny is a textbook example. If she’s reading this, she shouldn’t take it personally, she has a lot of company. They’re just not as visible.
    This is what happens in an elegartarian marriage to a beta provider. All decisions are by mutual consent, granting the female full veto power. The poison of disrespect is inevitable.

  80. Timber St. James

    Thought experiment: what if Leif had asked her to continue having sex with him (but otherwise no other contact)? That seems roughly the inverse of her desire for him to continue the beta-orbiter role.

    [ssm: OK, I'll bite. Lemme see now...]

  81. earl

    ” what if Leif had asked her to continue having sex with him (but otherwise no other contact)? ”

    Asked her to have sex. C’mon that’s probably what got him into this problem in the first place.

  82. Stand Watie

    I maimed a man last year. Cut off both his legs, and one ear to boot. For some reason he won’t be my friend. I really don’t know why.

  83. Hipster Racist

    Someone suggested that the Erikson’s marital problems started when she attended the Republican National Convention during the elections. She was hob-nobbing with wealthy, powerful men and surrounded by the excitement of a political campaign. The thought of going back to her beta husband – with that bushy beard, looking more like a grandfather-to-be than a Mr. Grey – probably made her skin crawl. When I used to attend political fundraisers, I was constantly accosted by women, even if I was standing right next to my girlfriend. They would shamelessly flirt and seemed to assume that I was wealthy.

    I’m guessing many men have simply never been in a position of power or fame thus have not seen how women shamelessly, openly, and ruthlessly throw themselves at men in those positions. I think it’s likely true that women would rather share an “alpha” with other women than to have her own exclusive “beta.” In my rebellious and hedonistic days, I figured out quickly that having a girlfriend was the best way to pick up other women. Half the time, my girlfriend was picking them up for me. I think she got off on it, frankly. As anyone who ever played bass in some crappy garage band can tell you, just being the center of attention, however temporarily, is enough to drive women crazy with desire.

    This is where I part ways with those that have this idea that it’s men chasing around women. It’s quite often the exact opposite – women chasing around men. There’s some idea that women are sexing up men in order to get a commitment; this I find risible. Most women are interested in sex, not commitment, as far as I can tell. In fact, the second you start talking about commitment is the second the sex stops. It’s as if as soon as they “catch” you, they lose all interest.

    But what is so horrific about the Jenny Erikson affair is how publicly she is humiliating her husband, using him as fodder for her blog. It is so heartless and cruel. I can imagine every article she writes feels like a twist of the knife to her husband. The divorce was bad enough, but her blogging about it is pure sadism – and not the fun, sexy kind, either.

  84. javaloco

    Someone suggested Leif might be playing high order game. I don’t quote agree but the play reminded me of the male protagonist in the Solomon eBook about the couple reconciling while stranded on an island.

  85. FuzzieWuzzie

    Hipster Racist, while I am in agreement with almost all youwrote in your last comment, we need to remind ourselves that Jenny was married with children. Women who are single can play with their feral natures, women who have responibilities cannot.
    In a previous comment, I equated being an attention whore with immaturity. Irresponibilty would be another indicator.
    Given what she took on in life, she should have risen aboe her base nature.

  86. Eidolon

    I agree that marriage is not the same as friendship. My wife often says she thinks of me as her best friend. I’m reminded of this:

    Marriage is not less than friendship, in many ways it’s far closer, but it’s not the same.

  87. Wonderlust

    Is it alright to ask a question that is not totally on topic to the post, but I needed some advice on from people older and a bit wiser then myself?

  88. Stand Watie

    @SSM

    I think it is not uncommon for men to beta orbit their ex-wives, either in hopes of getting back together…

    I’m sure it is. I read every book I could get my hands on on the subject of saving a marriage after my ex gave me the ILYBIDLY speech. At least twenty books, maybe more. Almost all of them instruct you to do just that.

    This one, for instance, devotes a lot of time to telling you to find out what your estranged wife needs to have done around her place and do it for her to show her how much you love her. Etc., etc. etc. Just amp up the beta provider and she’ll see what a mistake she’s making!

    Another book (I don’t remember the name any more, unfortunately) had several stories of men who beta orbited their separated or divorced wives until the wife came back around.

    The only good things that came from all of that reading was that it were

    a) It was abundantly clear to everybody who knew what was going on that I was willing to do whatever I could to make things work, and she didn’t give a @#$% and was going to leave anyway.
    b) I wanted to know why it didn’t work, and I ended up in this sector of cyberspace.

  89. Wonderlust

    Okay here is the issue. I am a very traditional and marriage minded young lady of 23 who has been saving herself for marriage her whole life. I have always told my dates, that I am a virgin and saving myself for marriage. The issue is that there is one incident in my past I don’t bring up. Essentially because the sex took place before I was age 6 and wasn’t really my idea. I was always told that God would forgive me for this, and still saw me as a virgin. As for the physical part, like many young women who lived through this experience my ladies part healed up seal intact.

    My question is basically how do you factor something like this into an N count? Do I have a duty to tell potential future spouses about this spot on my history, and if so when and how? This is a painful topic for me and I don’t want to bring it up on the first freaking date, but at the same time I do have some hangups from this so I suppose he has a right to know what he is going to be getting in marriage. Am I lying to my dates when I saw I am virgin?

  90. hurting

    Eidolon February 27, 2014 at 7:19 pm

    It seems like women are more likely than men to describe their spouses as (best) friends. Is this the product of their inability to form true friendships with their own sex?

    A marriage is several orders of magnitude more substantial than even the strongest friendship.

  91. FuzzieWuzzie

    Wonderlust, You’re innocent. This would definitely be a topic for discussion with anyone that you are getting serious with but, not until then.
    You might want to e-mail SunshineMary. I think her address is on the “About” page. Even though you’re anonymous here, you may want to cover this in more depth than would be comfortable in a public comment thread.
    Once again, you’re innocent. However it does seem as if victims have to carry guilt. It’s like a double whammy.

  92. Stand Watie

    @DrTorch

    Leif’s response was definitely in the right direction, but it still sounded pretty weak to me.

    He still gives the impression that she’s on his pedestal: He can’t stand to be near her w/ being her husband. He pines for her continually. And she’s repelled by it still (except for the strokes it provides her wounded ego).

    Guy’s gotta start somewhere. When you’ve been playing the part of the doormat for thirty-some years, finding your balls takes some time. I still remember the first time I set a boundary with my ex. Yeah, it was weak like what he did, and I was still pining for her, but it was a step in the right direction. Now, a couple of years later, I think nothing of interrupting her in mid-sentence with “You done now? No? Well, I am.” and then hanging up when she calls to bitch about something stupid. He just needs some encouragement. “Good job! Now, next time, be more of an asshole!”

  93. Pingback: When your ex-wife won’t be your casual piece of @$$. | Sunshine Mary

  94. imnobody00

    deti

    Her story has literally everything the manosphere talks about, from alpha widowhood, to marrying a beta orbiter she was never attracted to, to attempting an egalitarian relationship, to frivorce, to post-divorce dating and attention whoring, to history revisionism.

    I have always suspected that Jenny Erickson is an invention of Dalrock, who writes the blog and hires an aging middle-age actress for the pictures. It is suspicious that any woman follows Dalrock´s frivorce theory so perfectly.

  95. MarcusD

    @Michelle

    I haven’t had a male friend since I was about 7. We have mutual married couple friends, but that’s different. Is it normal or even possible for women to be friends with men? I know lots of women who SAY they have guy friends.

    It’s only in fairly recent history that men and women have had opposite-sex friends that they associate with separately from their spouses.

  96. deti

    Wonder:

    There is no reason at all you need to discuss anything about your sexual history with any guy you’re not serious about. None. At all. Neither a past assault nor your virgin status is anything you need to volunteer to a guy on a first date.

  97. sunshinemary Post author

    My question is basically how do you factor something like this into an N count?

    Others may disagree but I would say you are a virgin in the way that counts – you never engaged in sexual sin.

    Do I have a duty to tell potential future spouses about this spot on my history, and if so when and how?

    Yes, I think you have a duty to tell this to a future husband, but only when it’s clear that he’s serious about you and intends to propose marriage. Imagine if you didn’t tell him and he found out later; he would be so hurt that you hadn’t shared something like that with him. You say you have some hangups from this, as I imagine any woman would; as your husband, he will want to know what is causing those hangups. He will love you and almost certainly want to help you, but he cannot if he doesn’t know what the problem is.

    I have prayed for God to heal you and bring the right husband for you at the right time, if it is His will for you to marry.

  98. Bucho

    (Note: Thank you to reader Heywood Jablome for emailing me Jenny Erikson’s latest Cafe Mom article.)

    Sorry, I would have trouble writing this with a straight face. :)

  99. Ton

    SSM, up thread you asked how a man could allow hi wife to have lunch dates, text etc her ex husband….. does that really require an answer?

  100. AnonymousManosphereBlogger

    I have always suspected that Jenny Erickson is an invention of Dalrock, who writes the blog and hires an aging middle-age actress for the pictures. It is suspicious that any woman follows Dalrock´s frivorce theory so perfectly.

    While this sounds plausible, Divorce court proceedings are public record, and somebody (either here or at Dalrock’s) did find the actual Erickson Divorce Court case record and linked to it. Furthermore, Jenny has a very long track record of blogging and TV appearances and the like as a “Christian Mommy Blogger and Conservative Activist.” If she is a fraud, than this is a very deep, long planned and well-financed operation. Occam’s razor suggests otherwise.

    It’s not that Dalrock is blogging about frivorce “theory.” He’s blogging about readily observable mico and macro trends regarding divorce. Jenny’s story confirms Dalrock’s observations, because Dalrock is right!

  101. Chris

    Wonderlust: you are not, repeat not, responsible for what happened to you. But you are responsible, as a grown woman for what you do now and the consequences of the action. The best data on this is local and a decade old — and indicates among other things that adolescent adjustment (ie. succeeding at something, having good relationships with others) is important, as is the quality of adult relationships. Most importantly, trauma does not directly lead to PTSD, despite what the press say about this to women who have been sexually assaulted or men who serve in war.

    If SSM wants details, i can email her references.

    Now, if you find yourself spacing out and feeling ick (not in a good way) when someone you love gets to “base one” — and I am not talking here about our conscience or inexperience — and find that you recall trauma, or are having difficulty coping (eating disordered? cutting? acting out by spending and partying? suicidal?) GET HELP NOW. There are meds that can cut the pain down. There are therapies that can help. And no, I don’t mean your pastor. I mean someone from my trade: a board certified psychiatrist. Sting Obama with the bill if you have to, but get help.

  102. AJ Sena

    @Wonderlust

    You asked a couple of questions, but before I answer I want to tell you I feel like I can relate to your situation. You see, I also had sexual contact when I was six years old with a much older girl. My babysitter actually. I know it’s slightly different because I was a boy.

    Do you have to tell your future husband? Yes. I agree with SSM. You don’t want to keep this to yourself your entire life. You have to tell him at some point and it should be before the wedding. If you are dating seriously and it becomes obvious that you’re heading toward a proposal, then you should tell him.

    How does this affect your N-count? Not at all. You are not lying when you say you’re a virgin. My own past, what happened to me when I was six, I don’t count at all and the women I’ve told (I’ve only told 2 people) were sympathetic.

    You say this is a painful topic for you. What I’ve always felt is guilt. You see, even as a very young boy I was drawn to girls and I remember wanting it to happen. Logically, between a 6 year old boy and 15 year old girl, you have to place the blame on the older girl but I’ve felt guilty the entire time, up until recently. I wasn’t my fault and it’s not your fault.

  103. Eric

    If Jenny Erikson truly wonders why Leif doesn’t want to be friends with her anymore, maybe this explains it: http://thestir.cafemom.com/love_sex/164907/the_number_1_sign_youre?next=21

    In the article, she outright portrays Leif as at least habitually emotionally abusive and generally a scummy human being.

    Now she expects him to be her friend again? There isn’t just water under the bridge, she opened all the sluice gates on the Hoover Dam. She either totally lacks self-awareness or she’s amusing herself by playing with the knife she shoved into Leif’s back.

  104. Eric

    Curious question to divorced men: How do you feel about your ex-wife keeping your name?

    Why would she? What pragmatic reasons are there for an ex-wife to keep her ex-husband’s name?

  105. Ton

    My ex wife went back to her maiden name as quick as she legally could. For some reason this bothered my children but I was completely neutral on the topic. Crazy ….. you know what thought I would remarry quickly and did not want two Mrs Ton’ s running around. Strange mind set when you think about it.

  106. Wonderlust

    I want to thank everyone for their advice! It means a lot to me.

    @Chris
    Yeah…that is sort of my issue. I am becoming rather close to a new boyfriend. I think he might ask me to marry him and I would love to! However last time I become rather close to a boyfriend and he kissed me…I puked on him. It was a horrifying and terribly embarrassing mess. He soon found out that was not a fluke.. Didn’t matter when, didn’t matter where…I would puke. After a while he said I obviously wasn’t into men and left me flat. Its not that I wanted to puke or didn’t like him or anything like that…it literally just happened. Do you know if their is treatments for that kind of reaction?

    [ssm: Wonderlust, that is a very significant reaction. Your body is trying to tell you something. Was this the only man you have ever kissed? Have you kissed your new boyfriend? If so, did you experience the same reaction? I would say that you need to figure that out before you accept any marriage proposal because marriage involves a lot of kissing and even more intimate activities than this. If you cannot tolerate a man's lips on yours, it will be unbearable for you to fulfill your marital obligation to him.]

    @AJ Sena
    Thank you for sharing your story. I also for a long time wondered what I did to make this happen to me. Why didn’t I scream or fight more. Its good to know that other people felt that way to. The person who was involved with me was in their 40′s

    @Sunshine Mary
    Thank you for your prayers, I am so glad there are people like you writing on the internet who are willing to provide a bit of guidance to women like me. Hopefully if God sees fit I will have the strength to tell my future partner about this, because it has been a lot to bear alone.

  107. Escoffier

    Note that J. Erickson never says what the allegedy “hurtful” words actually were. She implies they had to do with certain of her posessions. It’s hard to see how that could be so hurtful but who knows. It’s also possible that her husband criticized frivilous spending on useless luxuries and that’s what hurt her so much.

    But this is all part of her pattern. If she really had the goods on Leif’s awful behavior, she would give specifics tha justified her leaving him. The best thing one can say about her is that she is apparently unwilling to lie and make things up. Instead she just tries to insinuate that he is awful but won’t spell out how or why.

  108. Farm Boy

    The thought of going back to her beta husband – with that bushy beard, looking more like a grandfather-to-be than a Mr. Grey – probably made her skin crawl.

    This seems very plausible. But it would be doubtful that any Republican politico would want to associate with her now. Bad optics.

  109. Bike Bubba

    Wonderlust, more or less what Chris says–your pastor can help you understand that the guilt is not yours, but your attackers, but a psychiatrist, at least a good one, can recognize the signs that something “interesting” is going on mentally and help you cope with that, too. Good luck on finding a good husband!

    Reading through some of Mrs. Erikson’s comments–about how it’s so awesome to be allowed to get a tattoo and go skydiving and such–it strikes me yet again that she may have been right that she wasn’t mature enough for marriage when she married–or, for that matter, when she divorced. Pretty sad…..and I’m pretty sure she is not, despite her protestations to the contrary, a believer in Christ. Good “actress”, though, I guess.

  110. feeriker

    Stand Watie said This one, for instance, devotes a lot of time to telling you to find out what your estranged wife needs to have done around her place and do it for her to show her how much you love her. Etc., etc. etc. Just amp up the beta provider and she’ll see what a mistake she’s making!

    Gary Smalley? UGH! The “every-problem-in-a-marriage-is-the-husband’s-fault-because-he’s-not-supplicating-to-his-wife-enough-and-is-obviously-a-spiritual-leadership-failure” churchian marriage “expert.” I made the mistake years ago of wasting money on one of his books when my own marriage was going through one of its many rough spots. Had I followed his advice I would probably have long ago been frivorced. Do yourself and every other impressionable Christian husband out there a favor and burn any copy of any book by Smalley you can get your hands on. It’s the only merciful Christian thing to do, and it will save countless marriages and men’s spiritual health and self-respect in the long run.

  111. feeriker

    But it would be doubtful that any Republican politico would want to associate with her now.

    Gotta disagree with you strongly on that statement, FB (goes back to the statement that “Conservative ‘Christian’” women are nothing but anti-abortion feminists). If they’ve demonstrated nothing else over the last four decades (if not the last 158 years of their existence as a political party), Republicans have demonstrated that they are utterly without principles.* If the local or even national GOP Establishment thinks it’s in their best interest to keep Jenny around as a spokeshypocrite, for whatever reasons of expediency (“pandering to the ‘Conservative’ women’s demographic” comes readily to mind as one of these reasons), they’ll do so without a second thought or a breath of apology.

    (*To head the obvious question/rebuke off at the pass: no, Democrats certainly have no more principles than Republicans. But at least Democrats have the decency to either readily ADMIT to this/not care about it, or be not nearly as blatantly hypocritical about it.)

  112. Eric

    Escoffier: “Note that J. Erickson never says what the allegedy “hurtful” words actually were.”

    She apparently considers Leif’s rejection of her LJBF and his implied request she be his wife again to be a paradigm of his hurtfulness.

  113. Dban

    @Wanderlust

    I’ve never commented here before (one of the best sites on the net though SSM), and I realize others have weighed in already but I have a slightly different perspective. My ex-wife had a similar experience as a child also and it caused her, me and our marriage quite a number of problems. Although I had an N of 1 when I met her in college she was still a virgin (as are you despite what happened to you). We started dating and we both agreed that we would wait till marriage. She told me fairly early on what happened to her and I was of the opinion that it was something that didn’t matter. It didn’t change my view of her and she seemed like it was something she had put in her past. Then came the wedding night… and nothing happened. There were apologies and excuses, all perfectly plausible (but annoying to a newly wed husband) but I figured we had the rest of our lives. It wasn’t until day 4 of the marriage that we actually managed to have intercourse, and then the only way she could describe it was ‘painful’. She saw medical doctors, and psychologists, we went to counseling (christian and non christian) where I was constantly told I wasn’t making her feel safe enough, that I need to be more attentive to her needs, etc. After a couple of years of this I found myself transformed from a christian marriage minded man (with what my current wife describes as good alpha and beta qualities) into her pure beta bitch begging for sex that would happen at most a few times a year. Well we all know where that situation leads. The pain turned out to be purely psychological, which she likely started to get past a couple years into the marriage, but by that point she had lost her attraction to me so once the PUA coworker came along it turned into ‘god’ telling her that the tingles she had for him was because god really wanted her to be with him and not me.

    I’m telling you this because the man you may one day hope to marry deserves a wife that has control of her issues and has given her pain to God to take care of. If kissing someone you consider your boyfriend causes you to throw up then I really think you need to seek godly counseling and prayer to resolve these issues *outside* of a relationship. I’m not saying you need to break up with your current boyfriend but he deserves to know the extent of what he is getting into before marriage. He needs to know about the incident, the throwing up on the former boyfriend, and anything else that might be important. If kissing causes that kind of reaction in you then it is entirely likely that whole other issues might happen once you actually do get married and have sex.

  114. Bike Bubba

    My take, per Eric and Escoffier’s conversation, about what “hateful” things Mr. E said to Mrs. E, is that it started as he had to step in–she herself documents some interesting things about excessive drinking, wanting a tattoo, getting drinks from men not her husband at political events by wearing a certain dress, etc..

    OK, pretty much exactly what I would do if Mrs. Bubba wanted some of those things. Or, Mrs. Bubba if I wanted these things. Some poor guy had to crack down on daddy’s little princess, it seems. Hope she catches on.

  115. sunshinemary Post author

    Welcome, Dban, and thank you for delurking to weigh in on this difficult topic.

    Reading through your comment, I’m struck that there are actually several things that went on in your marriage, and I think they are all separate strands that it would be useful to tease apart.

    First, there is the issue of your ex-wife’s past sexual abuse. I don’t know much about this issue, but I can imagine that it would be a potential source of frigidity in a woman. I am somewhat mistrustful of mental health practitioners (except for our own dear Chris, of course), but I should think that any young woman considering marriage who has been sexually molested might want to investigate the possibility of counseling before she marries. The problem is finding a counselor who will actually do some good, which I think is no easy feat. I should think spiritual warfare type prayer would be at least as effective.

    However, there are several other separate things that went on in your marriage, I think.

    The first question I would have to ask you would be this: was your wife sexually attracted to you at the beginning of your relationship? Because it sounds like from the very beginning, she was not interested in sex with you, but as she later proved, she did have an intact sex drive.

    The second issue is that you got terrible advice and went into beta supplication mode when what she desperately needed was a very strong alpha presence. It is my belief that women who have been raped (real rape) may bond sexually with their rapists – inadvertently and unwillingly of course – because he is the most sexually dominant man that it is possible to imagine. This makes sense in light of the fact that many women who have been violently raped report that they experienced arousal and orgasm unwillingly during the assault; these women report feeling very ashamed of their sexual responses during the rape.

    Most women don’t like to discuss this, but dominance and mild physical aggression are sexually arousing for women. A woman who has experienced intense sexual violence such as rape may be a sort of alpha widow through no fault of her own. I don’t know if the same thing could be said of woman who was molested while young, however. Nevertheless it is clear that your wife needed a great deal more alpha attraction behaviors and significantly fewer beta comfort behaviors. Unfortunately, you were instructed to up the beta rather than the alpha.

    Which leads to the third issue; your wife chose to engage in sexual sin with her co-worker. I do not believe that a woman who has been sexually molested as a child is doomed to behave like an unfaithful slut; that is a choice which is under a woman’s conscious control. Unfortunately, some women choose sin.

  116. Dban

    Welcome, Dban, and thank you for delurking to weigh in on this difficult topic.

    Thanks SSM. I found your site through Dalrock. You and the rest of the christian manosphere have my gratitude for the important work that you do.

    First, there is the issue of your ex-wife’s past sexual abuse. I don’t know much about this issue, but I can imagine that it would be a potential source of frigidity in a woman. I am somewhat mistrustful of mental health practitioners (except for our own dear Chris, of course), but I should think that any young woman considering marriage who has been sexually molested might want to investigate the possibility of counseling before she marries. The problem is finding a counselor who will actually do some good, which I think is no easy feat. I should think spiritual warfare type prayer would be at least as effective.

    Yes, well the counseling was not only unhelpful but it was actively harmful. The psychologist she had been seeing about her sexual abuse for 5 or 6 years was the first one we went to for marriage counseling. He knew her issues and she trusted him so I thought it would be a good safe place to go for her and I to try to get back on the right track. I got a bad feeling about him after a few sessions and so I found a new counselor. I found out later that that psychologist was actively encouraging her to divorce me so he could ask her out. Within 2 or 3 weeks of our divorce he was calling her asking her out to dinner, telling her that he thought they were meant to be together. The next 2 counselors we went to were basically like “hey it is just divorce, no big deal”. Finally I found a good christian counselor but it was too late by then. The second this counselor said that my ex-wife needed to work on anything she tuned her out. After a couple of sessions of this my wife finally left.

    The first question I would have to ask you would be this: was your wife sexually attracted to you at the beginning of your relationship? Because it sounds like from the very beginning, she was not interested in sex with you, but as she later proved, she did have an intact sex drive.

    Yes I’m sure. We had a few close calls prior to marriage and for a while did other things. Unfortunately she had a huge amount of guilt whenever things got sexual. Much of this stemmed from her guilt over the sexual abuse coupled with her religious convictions. Although I had no idea what game was at the time I ran heavy aloof asshole game on her prior to marriage. I had what she referred to as a ‘harem’ of attractive women who orbited me. Most of these women made it very clear to both of us that if she wasn’t in the picture that I would be well taken care of. I had the confidence of a man with many options and she pursued me because of it. Once we were married she wanted to have sex but the guilt over the abuse made it to where she couldn’t enjoy it. The only way I can describe it is she would tense up like a scared animal during intercourse. When it started to be pleasurable for her the guilt would start up and her body would shut down. We tried alot, at least at first, and she wanted to make it work. Unfortunately by the time she started to get a handle on her issues I had spent 3 years listening to her counselors, members of our church and our family telling me I just needed to be more beta to make her feel safe. Couple that with 3 years of attempts at sex that usually ended in her asking me to hurry because the pain was getting to her or her bursting into tears and I was a changed man, but not for the better. This is why I wanted to tell my story to Wanderlust, because when you bring another person into your life when you are not ready to deal with your issues yourself you risk bringing them into your trauma. The years I spent with my ex-wife were devastating to me emotionally. The constant feeling of rejection because of her issues with sex, the feeling of walking on eggshells, the isolation because you can’t really talk about your situation without also blabbing about your wifes sexual abuse, it wears you down. It took me years after the marriage ended to deprogram myself and I still have moments when I feel myself starting to backslide.

    The second issue is that you got terrible advice and went into beta supplication mode when what she desperately needed was a very strong alpha presence.

    I thought I was doing right by her and doing what a husband should to care for his wife but the only people I had to go to for advice back then (this was in 2003) were people who had bought the feminist lie and believed it was the true and right way to be, and this is what ultimately doomed the marriage. Looking back on it now fully red pill I can see the places I went wrong. We could have worked through her difficulties with me keeping my alpha frame, instead I went full beta. I gave up most of my female friends (and many male friends too) in order to concentrate more on the marriage, I dove into my job and stopped my hobbies, and worst of all I listened to what she told me and what the feminists told me on what attracted a woman instead of listening to my own experience.

    Which leads to the third issue; your wife chose to engage in sexual sin with her co-worker. I do not believe that a woman who has been sexually molested as a child is doomed to behave like an unfaithful slut; that is a choice which is under a woman’s conscious control. Unfortunately, some women choose sin.

    Oh I totally agree, and I wasn’t trying to imply that Wanderlust would do the same thing as my ex wife. My ex and I made our own mistakes and we each suffer the consequences of our sins, but what I am trying to express, perhaps poorly, is that when you marry someone that the issues like this can cause great harm to both people if it isn’t dealt with appropriately and preferably before marriage.

  117. Farm Boy

    She is really looking for a form of “closure” so she can feel less guilty for what she did to her ex husband and the kids. His friendship with her means she’s absolved and forgiven of her wrongdoing.

    The ex might not even realize why they are doing it, but deep down they sense that what they just did to the fella was very wrong. Men: make the hamster work harder — do not give in here. And when the occasion arises, make other women aware of what you did such that it would give them pause to do it themselves.

  118. Eric

    Dban: “what I am trying to express, perhaps poorly, is that when you marry someone that the issues like this can cause great harm to both people if it isn’t dealt with appropriately and preferably before marriage.”

    You expressed it, though the takeaway point is worth emphasizing again because it is overshadowed by your advice’s painful backstory. SSM delving into it is worthwhile for the instructional value, too.

    You said your wife was cured of her phobia 3 years into your marriage as made evident by her sexual infidelity, but by then, your marriage was broken. What if the two things aren’t independent? What if your beta-loving your wife hurt you, collapsed your marriage … and successfully cured her problem?

    The thought comes to mind from your advice to Wanderlust to fix her problem before it causes the trauma you experienced. But I wonder whether – as vampiric as this sounds – the cure for Wanderlust’s problem so she can healthily mate in the future first lies in using up a man and his love for her like your wife used you.

  119. jzb

    Dban,

    If you don’t mind, I’d like to ask how the experience has affected your personal faith? What compels you to continue to follow Christ when the people who claimed to proclaim truth/primacy in all things have completely failed you/led you astray?

    I don’t ask to be facetious, but because I struggle to return to faith in the midst of my red pill awakening.

  120. Ton

    Jzb, my faith changed in nature from the sappy bullshit most people spout to something much harder, more masculine and utterly devoid of needing others to filter God’s will for me.

  121. Farm Boy

    Obama intends to help the Ukraine by creating an “Obama Cares” website.

    “If you like your country, you can keep your country”.

  122. Dban

    The thought comes to mind from your advice to Wanderlust to fix her problem before it causes the trauma you experienced. But I wonder whether – as vampiric as this sounds – the cure for Wanderlust’s problem so she can healthily mate in the future first lies in using up a man and his love for her like your wife used you.

    Well I do think that part of it will have to be worked out in the marriage but I don’t think it requires a woman to use up a man to do it. It is hard for me to say though as it would be pure speculation on my part, but I think the husband and wife need to know what they are in for. The man is going to have to walk a very fine line between beta and alpha and the woman will have to really keep her mind focused on submitting to God and her husband. These can be hard things to do in the best of circumstances…

    If you don’t mind, I’d like to ask how the experience has affected your personal faith? What compels you to continue to follow Christ when the people who claimed to proclaim truth/primacy in all things have completely failed you/led you astray?

    I don’t ask to be facetious, but because I struggle to return to faith in the midst of my red pill awakening.

    When it comes down to it I had to realize that although the people I trusted and went to for advice gave me bad advice the blame for my actions still falls on me. With the Bible and prayer I had the tools I needed to see that the advice wasn’t biblical but I didn’t use those tools. I failed to be the leader that God called a husband to be and the result of that sin combined with my ex wife’s sin led to the destruction of our marriage. I also found great comfort in Philippians 4:11-13

    11 I am not saying this because I am in need, for I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances. 12 I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. 13 I can do all this through him who gives me strength.

    The Apostle Paul wrote this while in prison and reading it humbled me. Paul went through worse than I had, suffered more than I had and yet he still had contentment. He was able to do this because he got his strength from God. I was looking for happiness and contentment from other people when I should have been looking for it from God and his word.

  123. Chris

    Wanderlust, that is awful — and the story of Dban (if you are back lurking) would make things slightly worse. Now… how can I say this politely and without offending Scott, because my trade and his butt heads all the time — oh the hell with it. Most counseling is crap . There is good stuff out there, and one of the ways you know it is good is that it has been tested and you can find meta analyses on the subject. I write such things for a living. But there are a whole pile of counselors (including psychologists — locally “clinical psychologist” and “consultant psychiatrist” are registered ie. you cannot call yourself that unless you are registered and qualified — but psychologist and psychiatrist are not — because they tend to ‘go eclectic” and most clinical trials find that any structured therapy beats eclectic therapy).

    Now, Scott probably deals with more post trauma stuff that I do. But I do get a lot of women being admitted due to consequences of events and their reactions to them. There are things that can be done — cognitive based therapies that work for PTSD and associated self harm, including some things on the Internet that work for depression and anxiety (I have not seen the results for Internet based therapy for trauma, but I’m pretty sure the Aussies are looking at it because of the bush fires there — lots of people die on these).

    Christian counseling… again most of it is crap. Sorry, but if you ain’t got the double blind trial saying it works then I want to see it. Much of it is standard non directive therapy, with the liberal assumptions, and a Christian gloss. Better to go to someone who is good and then carefully test all his words than just accept it because it comes from “a Christian”

    So… talk to him. Get help. Get prayer: find a good specialized service if you can. And don’t vampire up another man’s love in some kind of twisted exposure therapy: you will damage yourself and him.

    Usual disclaimers here: I am not registered in the USA, I cannot give specific advice, and I don’t do any private work.

  124. Chris

    Forgot: some meds can help with intrusive thoughts and thoughts to harm but those (SSRIs and atypical antipsychotics) ones frequently used can cause sexual dysfunction. Be very cautious with medications.

  125. Pingback: The worst way out of the friendzone | AJ in SF

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