Seven ways to make sure your daughter rejects traditional sex roles and ends up a miserable androgyne.

Traditional sex roles are heavily based on our differing biological functions as males and females, as well as dividing up labor in such a way as to enhance family formation and create stable, functional societies.  These sex roles have been around in one form or another since, oh, forever actually.  They are pretty deeply ingrained, yet feminists are determined to destroy them.  This requires a great deal of intensive socialization focused on shaming children’s natural preferences starting in pre-school and really ramping up the effort in adolescence.  It requires constant vigilance lest girls and boys revert to their naturally-preferred sex roles.  It’s sad, though, when you think about all the confusion this creates in children and later adults.  What their biology is telling them to do is shamed, so they try to follow what they are told they should want to do but which feels so wrong.  No wonder mental health has declined so dramatically in the past 40 years; we need the anti-depressants just to cope with the dissonance.

It particularly bothers feminists when girls are not heavily socialized away from their naturally-preferred traditional sex roles.  In 7 Ways You’re Hurting Your Daughter’s Future, some annoying feminist at Forbes Woman explains how you can ruin your daughter’s life by socializing her natural desire to be a wife and mother right out of her and ensuring that she spends a sterile life as a corporate drone.  

Someday you want your daughter, niece, goddaughter and best friend’s little girl to grow up and have the option of being a firewoman, a writer, an Olympic gold medalist in boxing, a sergeant, a celebrity chef, the president … or whatever else her little heart desires.

And you want her to get paid the exact same amount for the same work that her male colleagues do.

But I don’t want my daughters to be boxers, sergeants, firemen, or the president.  What their little hearts desire is unlikely to be any of these things anyway, unless I allow feminists to poison their minds by telling them that they have to have a “career” so that they can be “fulfilled” and then maybe get married at 35 and conceive one child via IVF when they are 40.

Here is what the authoress says we traditionalists are doing wrong with our daughters and how we should be doing it instead:

1. You teach her to be polite and quiet.

There’s a fine line between being well-behaved and being a doormat, and it seems that all too often girls are pushed into territory bordering on the latter.

What this could mean for her future: It’s easy to see how this mindset could lead to the kind of behavior where women don’t negotiate for higher salaries, because they don’t want to offend a potential employer, or they don’t speak up in class, and eventually meetings, for risk of being seen as not nice.

How you can avoid this: While we all want well-behaved children, don’t forget to teach your daughter that it’s okay to debate, disagree and negotiate–respectfully, of course–and especially with her peers. Encourage her to speak up in class, from preschool to college, and state her opinion, and then be ready and willing to defend it.

I don’t technically have a problem with teaching a girl to debate respectfully, but the proof has got to be in the pudding, and I have not ever found that feminists are capable of respectful, well-reasoned debate.  Let’s just grab a recent example to see how feminist-indoctrinated women argue when they encounter an idea with which they disagree:

The brilliance of her logic is blinding, no?  In my experience, most young women now simply respond to disagreement by spewing expletives.  We need to do a better, not worse, job of teaching our daughters to be polite and quiet.

2. You buy her gender-specific toys.
By only handing her pink playthings for the first three years of her life, your child may decide pink is her favorite color because “that’s what girls like.”…

What this could mean for her future: This is important because a 2009 study found that 31% of “girl” toys are all about appearance, involving plastic makeup and dresses. Meanwhile, toys targeted to boys encourage invention, exploration, competition, mobility, problem solving–all skills associated with highly desirable employees and leaders.

How you can avoid this: Try to avoid walking exclusively down the Barbie and doll aisles at stores, and instead provide your child with games and toys that encourage scientific discovery, competition, exploration and problem solving. 

The problem isn’t gender-specific toys.  My daughters have trucks and cars and dolls and a play kitchen set.  They play with all of them but guess which ones they play with the most?  The ones that stem from traditional sex roles; they are much more likely to be found dressing their dollies or pretending to cook dinner than they are creating a racetrack to zoom their toy cars on.

The problem is that girl-specific toys have crashed headlong into Slut Culture.  Consider:

And contrast that with:

We’re teaching our daughters to be monstrous whores rather than nurturing mothers, but the alternative isn’t to teach them to be boys.

3. You tell her she’s pretty … to the exclusion of everything else.
Yes, she’s an adorable pumpkin who looks so cute in curly pig tails that you want to squeal. But she’s also really good at writing poetry, is an architectural whiz at constructing complex pillow forts and loves singing along to The Beatles and strumming her air guitar.

What this could mean for her future: We live in a very appearance-conscious society, and unless you can commit to completely cutting your daughter off of all forms of media and interactions at school, she is going to have a sense that her appearance counts…However, by making a concerted effort to reward, acknowledge and show a genuine appreciation for her non-appearance based achievements (academic, sport, musical, etc.), we will start to send clear messages that her value does not begin and end with the way she looks.

How you can avoid this: …challenge yourself to match every compliment you give about your daughter’s appearance with at least two compliments about something non-appearance based.

It’s good to teach a girl that her entire worth is not based on her appearance.  After all, the Bible teaches us:

Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting; but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised. (Proverbs 31:30)

But we also need to be realistic with young women about what it is that attracts young men – their future husbands – to them:

Listen, daughter, and pay careful attention:
Forget your people and your father’s house.
11 Let the king be enthralled by your beauty;
honor him, for he is your lord. (Psalm 45:10-11)

The reality is that their appearance is a big part of it.  We should encourage them to understand that prettiness is fleeting, so a young woman ought to find husband while she is still young and then give him her pretty years, creating a loving family with him who will praise her for her intelligence and quiet, gentle spirit long after her beauty fades.

4. You indoctrinate her into the princess cult.

Most real-life princesses are actually quite accomplished. They can speak several languages, have excellent diplomacy skills and we know at least one who graduated from an esteemed British university. But your little girl doesn’t know that. All she knows is that the key to living happily ever after is being able to sing well enough to attract a prince to rescue her from her troubles.

What this could mean for her future: Princess culture encourages girls to be damsels in distress whose role it is to look good and wait for a handsome prince to swoop in, ‘save her’ and bring value to her self and her path,…unless we are going to start encouraging ‘warrior princess’ mentalities and behaviors (active, heroic in her own right, in charge of her own destiny), we are going to keep our girls stuck with the feeling that they are not really relevant and valuable in and of themselves, but only in their attachment to men.

How you can avoid this: It’s an almost impossible task to shield your daughter from princess culture altogether, and with the right messaging, there’s really no reason to. What you can do is redefine for her what a being a princess means. Take her to see “Brave” this summer, a movie about a princess who bucks expectations to save her kingdom herself–no man required. Or revisit “Tangled,” a story about a princess who doesn’t want or need the help of a prince, and couldn’t care less when her pretty blond hair gets cut off. If your daughter has already fallen in love with traditional princess stories, be sure to point out all the fabulous things the heroine is doing all on her own (Look how Belle loves reading. Ariel sure is a fabulous swimmer …)

I’m no fan of Disney culture at all, but the reality is that girls love princesses, and they love those princesses because they are a) pretty and b) have a handsome, charming prince.  That’s just how we’re wired.  GIrls are born wanting to be pretty and dreaming of marrying a charming prince.  No girl dreams of “doing [it] all on her own”; that is purely a feminist fantasy.  Oh, and by the way, in the movie “Tangled”, the princess isn’t capable of even getting herself to the city where she needs to go; she has to enlist the aid of a handsome rogue to get her there.

5. You give Dad all the physical tasks around the house.
It might be easier to let the man of the house open the pickle jar or fix the squeaky door, but we bet you could do these things too if you put your mind to it.

What this could mean for her future: It’s important for parents to consciously challenge typical gender-specific tasks…especially those that communicate that women are weaker than men, and that they are ‘caretakers’ rather than ‘doers,’ ‘fixers’ or ‘providers.’

How you can avoid this: Demonstrate for your daughter that you handle important financial tasks…and that you can cut the lawn and open pickle jars. Also avoid handing out chores according to gender. Assign mowing the lawn and taking out the trash to your daughter, while asking your son or husband to do the dishes and vacuum the living room.

It’s as I always say; feminists don’t oppose sex roles so much as they want men and women to swap roles.  That’s why they want the guys doing the dishes and the girls mowing the lawn, despite the fact that research has shown that couples who adhere to traditional divisions of labor have more frequent sex.  And I love the way she says that we have to avoid communicating that females are weaker than males…as if that weren’t actually true.  Feminists always try to deny reality.

6. You only let her spend time with other girls.
While sending your daughter to an all-girls school isn’t the only place where this issue could play out, it’s still worth mentioning that there have been studies pointing both directions on whether single-sex schooling is actually more effective for girls. One study showed that graduates of single-sex schools had higher SAT scores and confidence, and better academic engagement. But another report published last fall upended the status quo, finding that all-girl schools not only don’t graduate more accomplished students, but that single-sex schools breed children more likely to believe in gender stereotypes.

What this could mean for her future: It’s not just about whether your daughter attends an all-girls school or not–the issue extends into her life outside of school as well. Studies actually show that not only do preschool-age children tend to self-segregate by sex, but that segregation leads to the development of different sets of social skills, styles, expectations and preferences–none of which will help her someday break into the board room.

How you can avoid this: If your daughter is surrounded by tons of girlfriends at school, with nary a boy in sight, try encouraging friendships with boys outside of school, with neighbors or kids of your own friends. For young children, especially, it’s important to arrange play dates with boys as well as girls, invite boys to your child’s birthday parties and other outings and unleash her on the neighborhood basketball court or a co-ed sports team. She’ll learn that she can do everything boys can do … and more.

She’ll learn that she can do everything boys can do and more…because girls are just boys who can have babies?  This is, of course, a lie.  Women can’t do everything men can do, and it’s wishful thinking to say that they can.  It’s no problem for boys and girls to play together if they want to, though in my experience of working with children as a teacher and speech-language pathologist, most children actually prefer to segregate by sex at playtime.  Not exclusively, but it’s seen from a very young age and unless you pressure them about it and make them feel like it’s wrong, it is what they will naturally do.  Why is that a problem exactly?  I think the problem is that boys tend to be much more rejecting of girls than vice versa, and this angers feminists.

7. You criticize your own body, and/or other women’s bodies.

Eating healthy is a must for every mom and her daughter, but you don’t want to cross the line into body criticism.

What this could mean for her future: By talking in front of your daughter about your diet, how you need to lose a few pounds or criticizing other women’s clothing choices because of their body shape, you communicate that a woman’s body needs to look a certain way in order for her to be considered likable and successful.

How you can avoid this: It is really critical that we embody the behaviors and attitudes about ourselves that we want our daughters to feel about themselves…Demonstrate what healthy eating looks like: balanced meals chosen for their nutrition and energy needs. Avoid behaviors like buying low-fat, processed foods and skipping meals, which are unhealthy and ultimately unsuccessful ways to lose weight at the expense of your health.

I agree that you don’t want to give your daughter some kind of complex about her body, but then again, we need to be realistic about the modern obesity epidemic and what it is doing to women’s appearance and health.  Being fat makes a woman both ugly and unhealthy, no matter what fat-activist feminists say, and the Bible is clear that gluttony is a sin.  It’s fine to be accepting of your daughter as a person, but I would definitely talk to her about how important it is to maintain a healthy weight and get plenty of exercise.  The truth is that how a woman’s body looks really does determine in part how successful she will be, and pretending like this is not the case denies reality.  All the socialization in the world is never going to make people not have a natural aversion to someone who is obese; why pretend otherwise?

People will almost always follow traditional sex roles if they are left alone to do so because these roles stem from our natural biological differences and because these roles help men and women form families and societies.  Socializing these roles out of people requires enormous effort and is of no benefit to the human race.  Eliminating or even swapping sex roles is an important part of feminist ideology, but doing so inhibits family formation and destabilizes society.  Let us resolve to reject unnatural egalitarian sex roles and embrace the natural traditional sex roles that have served humanity well for so long.

(My thanks to Zippy Catholic for pointing out the Forbes article to me.)

161 thoughts on “Seven ways to make sure your daughter rejects traditional sex roles and ends up a miserable androgyne.

  1. lauratheringmistress

    I am always for encouraging one to not be limited by stereotypes. But it is a different thing entirely to actively do the opposite.

    A few thoughts:
    1) Feminine firmness is what needs to be taught. It seems like women have two modes: a) don’t rock the boat, and b) brassy harpy. One won’t make the reasonable effort to ensure her rights (this was like me, not insisting on better medical care at the hospital that was maltreating me because it wasn’t nice and they were trying so hard already). The other uses the foulest language possibly to get “rights” that don’t exist. Polite insistence combined with wisdom is what is needed.

    2) My daughter loves her pink Legos. She makes cakes out of construction toys and robots out of “cupcake party” Duplos. 80% of our toys are “boy” oriented given that that is the ratio in our family, but for all of the tomboyish play, she is the only child drawn to giving stuffed animals changes and tucking then into beds. Nothing wrong with girls playing with swords or trucks. They’ll tuck the semi into its garage to sleep when they’re done. What disturbs me is little boys encouraged to nurse babies in slings.

    4) Not so keen on Disney either. Don’t own any of the DVDs. What I do like are stories of actual princesses, who tend to be very good role models. Especially the saints among them.

    Interesting point about fairy tales. You actually have two kinds of princess. There is the girl who becomes a princess when her beauty and worth are recognized by a prince and he takes her for a wife. (Cinderella, for example). And then there are the ones born princesses who are deeply flawed and require correction. (See the Tale of King Hawksbeak, the Frog Prince, and Turandot) You could do worse for an education in feminine virtue than to read through the Lang fairy books and discuss the relative merits of various princesses.

    5) But I can’t open the pickle jar! Everything else is divided similarly. My husband can’t wash dishes (allergic to the soap) or mow the lawn (allergic to the grass). I wash dishes, and we hire someone to mow things. He lifts heavy things, kills bugs, and talks to neighbors about repairs to the property. We do what we’re good at. Sometimes that looks traditional, sometimes it doesn’t. But we’re not trying to prove anything now, are we?

    Let girls be girls. Encourage their talents, help them grow in virtue, cultivate the things that make them lovable without shoving them into a one size fits all box. Help them discover the vocation God gave them, not the one your vision of egalitarian utopia requires.

  2. Bike Bubba

    It’s very interesting to me that, as the father to four girls (and two boys), I’ve NEVER had to point them to dolls, dresses, or the kitchen. It’s also worth noting (#7) that I’ve never had to insist that they take care of themselves physically. I’m going to dare say it; a certain portion of obesity in this country is because kids are getting bored stiff in school and then “self-medicating” with French Fries, Ho-Hos, and the like.

    Until they can get some Ritalin or whatever….

  3. FuzzieWuzzie

    It seems as if the whole point is to foster competition between boys and girls. This will not turn out well as it’s antithetical to cooperation.
    Gender as a social construct is a feminist fantasy.

  4. Sarah's Daughter

    Let girls be girls

    That is until they are teenagers when the real work begins with raising daughters. There is a six month to one year period of time that it seems their every sentence and interaction needs to be evaluated by a parent because with those natural hormones comes the expression of the very worst attributes of women. My oldest daughter asked once if I was ever going to relent (in correcting her disrespectful ways – eye rolls, back talk, groans, “whatevah’s” etc.) “No ma’am” I told her. Consider this a gift to your future husband. ;) After about a year we noticed we have a very endearing, well mannered, respectful young woman on our hands (who is also a cut up and fun to laugh with. Just in time for the youngest to start up.

  5. sunshinemary Post author

    Bike Bubba:

    I’ve NEVER had to point them to dolls, dresses, or the kitchen.

    Of course not. Almost all girls naturally enjoy that kind of thing. A few don’t, and this is no problem, but it doesn’t necessitate reordering society on their behalf.

  6. Rollo Tomassi

    Feminism is social engineering that rivals what the Hitler Youth had envisioned. In essence, “raise your children thusly to be more acceptable by the collective”.

    @SSM did you read this yet:
    http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2014/02/05/study-finds-the-foul-source-of-feminism/

    Great stuff. It’s a nifty addendum to the CH Theory of Feminism above. Low SMV women embrace feminism as a social mechanism to alternately decrease competition from more beautiful women and increase the sexual choice of, and the access to societal (read: male) resources for, uglier women.

    Elevating the status and the perceived value of the ugly and the monstrous, and simultaneously disparaging the normal and the healthy, is the true motivation of feminists. Their nefarious goal is the renormalization of society and the sexual market to a lower aesthetic; one that is more congenial to the fates of the unloved women.

    Feminism is not about a war on women; feminism is a war OF women. Womano-a-womano. All that bleating about equality and judgmentalism and slut shaming and the patriarchy is just the squid ink ugly broads expectorate to give them a fighting chance in the all-against-all, zero-sum competition for mates.

    [ssm: Oh, I didn't read this article. I'm heading over to CH to read the whole thing.]

  7. sunshinemary Post author

    Oh, SD, we are in endless H-E-Double hockey sticks with this right now. Miss 14 and Miss 13 need correcting constantly. The disrespect is unending lately. I feel like all I do is correct them. They aren’t as bad with their father because he’s stricter about it and doesn’t get roped in to the emotional back-and-forth. If they talk back, he metes out immediate consequences. I tend to get into little bitch dramas with them. You should see us in the morning before school, lol, and all three of us are in sync, if you know what I mean, so some weeks are particularly evil. When does it end??

  8. Sarah's Daughter

    When does it end??

    You’re well on your way when you observe that they are checking themselves. “I’m sorry, that was disrespectful.” Or when they’re gone for a period of time come back and you ask, “what have you been doing?” and she says, “playing my guitar, my attitude was all out of whack, I needed some alone time to pray and be calm again.” **tears of joy**

  9. Jim

    “If human nature gets in the way of your ideology, the solution is simple: Fix human nature.—
    Nicholas B Stevenson”

    And this folks, is the mind of a socialist. Utopian and ridiculous.

    [ssm: Yes. Nicholas has accurate summarized the feminist position on that. They are just sure that ideology trumps nature.]

  10. lauratheringmistress

    @SD, SSM,

    That’s why I’m glad we only have the one so far. I really never did that with my family. The closest was a brief argument over appropriate clothing for a casual dance. I was mostly moody and withdrawn. Our daughter appears till have a bit more spirit so we’ll see. Thanks for the heads up.

  11. Ton

    Children, options…. WTF? Never gave mine any options but ones I had already pre approved of.

    Lady boxers; Ladies have thinner skin then men, punches to the face ugly them up quick. Which is why a man should use an open hand.

    My daughter did that same kind of thing around 12. Took about a year and a half to get it corrected but when she did it was like flipping a switch. One day I’m thinking about pig farms and wood chippers, the next day my darling girl was back.

  12. Amanda

    Years ago I thought it would be so cute to buy a kitchen and grocery set for my then two sons. They play food turned into fire bombs to be plucked directly at your brother’s head in !battle! The big play kitchen plastic thing is often the base of a “king of the hill” game involving a pile up of toys, when it’s not collecting dust. And the poor grocery cart became some kind of hybrid wagon where you plop your behind in it and have your brother shove you down the hill in the backyard for a really fun ride. I think it’s in the shed covered in mud lol. Stick the traditional sex roles, people! It’s going to seep out one way or another anyway lol.

  13. feeriker

    In my experience, most young women now simply respond to disagreement by spewing expletives. 

    Correct, and while it does seem that the millennial and post millennial generations of young women are the worst offenders here, to be fair, it is something I notice in both sexes. In addition to non-existent positive parental influence, it is the result of parental neglect, the abandonment of children at an early age to the toxic environment of day care and the State’s juvenile prisons (a.k.a. public “schools”), where the ability to reason and think critically, among many other critical life skills and traits, is systematically and deliberately erased out of them at an early age. Girls are already at a natural disadvantage here, so the mechanations of the system do double damage, with crippling, life-long results.

    All of the above said, let me use it as an opportunity to reiterate ONE MORE TIME what should be an obvious truism, but isn’t (thanks in large measure to the works of the aforementioned institutions): subjecting your children to the soul-poison of public “schools” is child abuse/neglect of the most depraved kind, second only to physical/sexual abuse. If you really love and care for your children, KEEP THEM AWAY FROM THE STATE’S GRASP!

  14. Martel

    Slightly OT, but a great takedown of feminism here: http://m.nationalreview.com/article/370451/feminist-mystique-kevin-d-williamson

    Sample: “Feminism is not an idea or a collection of ideas but a collection of appetites wriggling queasily together like a bag of snakes. Feminism has nothing to do with the proposition that women should be considered whole and complete members of the body politic, though it has enjoyed great success marketing itself that way. (Virginia I. Postrel recently denounced me as a “creep” for suggesting that the substance of feminism, if indeed there is any, differs rather radically from its advertising campaigns.) A useful definition is this: “Feminism is the words ‘I Want!’ in the mouths of three or more women, provided they’re the right kind of women.” Feminism must therefore accommodate wildly incompatible propositions — e.g., (1) Women unquestionably belong alongside men in Marine units fighting pitched battles in Tora Bora but (2) really should not be expected to be able to perform three chin-ups. Or: (1) Women at Columbia are empowered by pornography but (2) women at Wellesley are victimized by a statue of a man sleepwalking in his Shenanigans. And then there is Fluke’s Law: (1) Women are responsible moral agents with full sexual and economic autonomy who (2) must be given an allowance, like children, when it comes to contraceptives.”

  15. malcolmthecynic

    Worth noting: “Brave” is the story of a Princess who rejects her mother’s ideal of what it means to be a lady – that she needs to be a loving and supportive wife and mother, and being “independent and free” might be fun, but there are certain responsibilities Princesses have that are different than Princes have.

    Her rejection of her traditional feminine Princess duties is what causes the movie’s main conflict – her Mother being transformed into a bear.

    “Brave” is not a feminist manifesto, and neither is “Tangled”.

    I love Sherlock Holmes, and my absolute favorite show is BBC’s “Sherlock”. But “Elementary” drives me nuts by perverting the Holmes-Watson dynamic. Instead of making Watson Holmes’s sidekick and giving him a brotherly relationship with Holmes, they pervert Watson into a “strong, independent woman” who learns to be nearly as capable a detective in her own right as Holmes.

    It’s ridiculous. Holmes is supposed to be far smarter than everybody else, ESPECIALLY Watson. The contrast is, narratively, the key to their relationship. Watson’s biggest strength is not that he’s a partner. He’s “backup” for Holmes, and he does the tasks Holmes assigns for him. Turning Watson into a woman makes this role impossible because women are physically inferior, so instead that need to make Watson Holmes’s intellectual partner and equal. That is not Watson ,that’s a totally different character with an entirely different relationship who happens to share the same name.

    The desire to create a “strong, independent women” bowdlerizes their relationship and destroys its heart. It’s a travesty, which is a shame because it’s really not a bad show. But Lucy Liu is not Watson.

  16. Laguna Beach Fogey

    Bring back finishing schools and the débutante ball scene.

    Débutante balls and formal dancing are making a comeback in Britain and Europe, and even in the Gulf States.

    [ssm: Really? I didn't know that. That's interesting.]

  17. Martel

    Great quote from Elspeth’s link:

    “Recently I had lunch with a friend and self-proclaimed feminist. In one breath she talked about wearing a low-cut shirt to a job interview, knowing it would help her land the job. Minutes later she spoke of the waiter looking down her blouse ‘What an asshole!’”

  18. feeriker

    A useful definition is this: “Feminism is the words ‘I Want!’ in the mouths of three or more women, provided they’re the right kind of women.” 

    Pure platinum. Should be included in a list of “The 21st Century’s Most Quotable Quotes.”

  19. Maeve

    HA! We own EVERY SINGLE ONE of those Monster High Dolls. Iseult went through a phase when she wanted “make believe” dolls as opposed to “real dolls” (ie, Barbie and her babydolls). Still, she hasn’t turned out too badly. :-)

  20. Farm Boy

    People will almost always follow traditional sex roles if they are left alone to do so because these roles stem from our natural biological differences

    One wants sex roles that are “good enough”. For example, women have hypergamy which leads to shit tests and other bad attributes. It must be brought under control, and when done so women can be happy enough with it suppressed.

  21. Farm Boy

    Seven ways to make sure your daughter rejects traditional sex roles

    Perhaps if one teaches her to make sammiches for dad when she is young, these problems might be avoided.

  22. Bike Bubba

    Martel’s comment makes me glad I work in engineering, where I can’t think of ANY woman getting ahead by “shining her headlights” at men. I can think of a man who got fired because he thought he was responding to that, but not a woman getting ahead by doing so.

    Maybe if you’re working as a barmaid or something like that, but if you choose a profession where you get ahead this way, please don’t complain when a man takes advantage of the view.

    (and a hint for those working retail; unless your product has no redeeming features whatsoever, it helps to keep the customer focused ON THE PRODUCT. Just sayin’)

  23. Farm Boy

    All she knows is that the key to living happily ever after is being able to sing well enough to attract a prince to rescue her from her troubles.

    Sometimes long hair works.

    Which is a good thing.

  24. Melissa M.

    @Farm Boy Perhaps if one teaches her to make sammiches for dad when she is young, these problems might be avoided.

    One of my earliest memories of my dad was making him a cup of instant coffee. I did it with joy at being able to serve him. My mom and dad divorced sometime later when I was 6 so it didn’t last long.

  25. Cautiously Pessimistic

    Years ago I thought it would be so cute to buy a kitchen and grocery set for my then two sons.

    When you’re a mother’s son, every stick becomes a gun.

  26. Bike Bubba

    When you’re a mother’s son, every stick becomes a gun.

    Not true. Sometimes they become swords, spears, clubs, or the handle to a shield. Duh.

  27. allamagoosa

    @Farm Boy Perhaps if one teaches her to make sammiches for dad when she is young, these problems might be avoided.

    That reminds me of a James Herriot story I read, where he described a teenage girl furiously pumping up the tire of her bicycle so she could take the long ride into town to buy her father one bottle of beer to have along with his dinner. The best part is she was doing it as a surprise for him. Herriot then compared it to the rich man with an awful wife and daughter he had seen earlier that day, and thought he’d much rather be poor with a loving family.

  28. Cautiously Pessimistic

    Sometimes they become swords, spears, clubs, or the handle to a shield.

    Or, in my case, spaceships. With guns on.

    I work in engineering, where I can’t think of ANY woman getting ahead by “shining her headlights” at men.

    I’ve seen it. It’s rare, simply because so few women are in the profession to begin with. And no, NAEWALT, but some are.

  29. Martel

    almagoosa’s story about the grateful daughter reminded me of something I read a few weeks back. A girl was getting braces, and she wanted to help her dad pay for them so she started up a business selling some sort of craft she was good at (I think it was misseltoe for Christmas). All in all, a pretty decent thing for a kid to want to do (usually Dad OWES her the braces).

    But they shut her down for not having filled out the proper business paperwork and paying whatever startup fees. I think she was like 12 years old.

  30. Maeve

    My mother taught me how to iron by starting out on my father’s handkerchiefs. I can distinctly remember being so proud that I had everything folded with the monogram positioned correctly, My dad told me I did an excellent job and that they were the best looking handkerchiefs ever. So a couple days later I overhead him laughing with my mother that I didn’t have quite her light touch with the starch, but not to say anything to me. Call it weird, but I still like ironing to this day.

  31. Bike Bubba

    Cautious; or perhaps the relative scarcity of women in engineering changes the economics to where a girl doesn’t need to shine the bucks to bag one?

    And I’ve seen women TRY to get ahead like you note, but at least once I remember it backfiring badly. (memo to ladies entering the work force; most women do NOT look good in a bikini, and definitely not at the company picnic!)

  32. Hipster Racist

    Is Feminism A Gender Identity Disorder?

    Men tend to form a male hierarchy based on dominance and submission – rank – with well defined roles. These complex hierarchies can do some amazing things, like build bridges. Women do not seem to form these hierarchies. Nevertheless, feminists are jealous of what men do and want to mimic this hierarchy. Most women don’t seem to have the interest or aptitude.

    So, the feminists invade the male hierarchy, demand the dynamics change to be more comfortable for women, and then tries to recruit other women into the hierarchy as her team mates – Team Woman – against the men.

    Women may not form a hierarchy, but they do tend to form a network. A community; civil society, often based around homes, children, and family. But since that doesn’t come with the prestige of the male hierarchy – feminists only care about what men find prestigious, not women – feminists have no interest.

    That’s what they mean when they say they don’t want women to define themselves by having a man, or appeal to men. They don’t mean “men” they mean “husbands.” Because none of these feminists are starting their own companies, or a female hierarchy. They can’t do it; they are incapable. But these women aren’t family women, they don’t want to be mothers and wives. Of course, they don’t want to be men, physically, they aren’t going to have a sex change operation.

    So, you wear the pantsuits, mimic men as much as possible, try to gender neutralize the workplace (let’s be honest, this is White Collar White Feminism we’re talking about here) then complain that the boss married his secretary, as opposed to his hard charging feminist VP.

    Sound and fury, signifying nothing.

  33. Just Saying

    SSM: “simply respond to disagreement by spewing expletives.”

    You cannot debate with Feminists – in a battle of the wits they are unarmed, so they resort to the tactic of all unarmed idiots, they start getting louder and calling you names. Only proving your point – as my Father taught be long ago, once your opponent loses their temper you own them. It’s just a question of what you decide to do with them. He made a living using that to his benefit. I’ve found that it’s much more beneficial to just ignore them, and manipulate them to my own ends. I always found that by angering my opponent it allowed me to destroy them more easily when it came to physical altercations, or goad them into various actions beneficial to me.

    As to the topic of this post – if women hate being women so much – they can get testosterone shots, that will “FIX” them – since they seem to assume that being a woman is somehow less than being a man. Of course, from their perspective it is – because they want to BE a man – and they will never be that. Whereas If they embraced being a woman and their femininity, they would be a lot happier – but it’s the nature of the beast (and beastly they are indeed)….

    The women I see, enjoy being women – and I enjoy them being women too. Of course, I do thank the Feminists by beating into their sweet little heads that they have to f**k everything that moves till they are too old to be wanted. Makes it a LOT easier for me to use them for my own devices. That’s why I never argue with Feminists – I just let them rant and rave, since I know in the end, I’ll be enjoying all of those women that listen to them – or enjoying their daughters – or grand-daughters. (It’s such a shame that at some point I’ll be too old to enjoy the young ones, but I’m already 50+ and it hasn’t stopped yet.) I see that as “winning” if it was a battle – but it isn’t. Feminists have given men everything we want from women, at zero cost – at least if you never “buy the cow” and just enjoy the milk. And I’m good with free milk… :) Although a lot of women are looking more and more like cows every year – and that is an affront to my eyes… One of many reasons I enjoy the young ones.

  34. dannyfrom504

    you know how my sister stayed off the carousel? she was disgusted at the girls that i was banging.

    damn near every girl i know who’s red-pill either had VERY involved parents or a brother who was a slut that dissuaded them form being promiscious.

  35. Obliterated

    Man, I have just always been ACHING. To “break into the board room.” NOT! Ugh how utterly UNappealing. I did used to fantasize about “doing it all on my own.” Singlehood was very exciting and fu and challenging for me. But those fantasies were always cut short by the Holy Spirit reminding me that no one can be entirely independent and that I would always need to be in fellowship with the family of God and a witness to those outside the fold. And often those fantasies were a response to someone hurting me deeply, so yeah, not healthy.

    I’ve been curious about your take on the princesses for a while. That section was great!

  36. Obliterated

    All you moms are scaring me…I’ve got three girls so far! Already I feel I spend half the day disciplining them/training them. This morning it was helping my eldest see that shrieking at me while getting her teeth brushed was completely wrong and not helping her cause. She listened for some time and then said, “Mommy, I need to tell you something! I DONT want to be around you right now!!” Oh, but she did. I took out he compost and after apologizing she of course wanted ten minutes of snuggles and told me how she wants to snuggle “all day and night.” We are unable to communicate what we really want from the get-go! LOL

    @feeriker,
    Slightly OT, but can you give any resources for fending off the homeschooling naysayers? We are starting next year officially and already my mother is voicing her (very loud and critical) opinion that kindergarten is “vital” to my daughters’ development. In spite of the fact that we go to church with several elementary schoolteachers who all tell me she is more advanced than their first-graders. *sigh* I’m just having a hard time knowing how best to fend her off. She is already a person we need to filter very much because she is the antithesis of what I want my daughters to become. Anyone else with resources please speak up as well! Today is a day I am praying for daughters everywhere! It’s crazy what a huge battle we have as parents to teach them what is right by going so much against the grain! Lord, help us!

  37. Bike Bubba

    Obliterated, discipline goes better when you make sure it proceeds from the Gospel–the awareness of sin for which Christ died. take it from the daddy of six!

  38. Bike Bubba

    Also, http://www.hslda.org is a great launching point for understanding homeschooling. Plus, ask your mother whether you’d put an adult in a room full of five year olds to help them mature–and then when she says “of course not”, ask “why, then, a five year old?” Fact of the matter is that you learn adult behavior from adults.

  39. Obliterated

    Thanks for the resource and encouragement Bike Bubba! Yes, the awareness of our sinful nature I have found is absolutely key! I always bring the gospel into our discipline. Otherwise, how would any of it make any sense? That was so confusing for me as a child growing up in a, ah, let’s see…atheist/hippie/Oprah-Madonna-glorification household.

  40. Happyhen

    Obliterated,

    May I suggest 2 things.
    First, look for homeschooling groups in your area. Ours has novices to old hats. Lots of good advice there… and support. Plus, the whole socialization thing can be nipped in the bud as most have play groups with children of all ages.

    Second, attend some homeschooling conferences if you can. Get their lecture schedules or even purchase recordings of the lectures. I know the one we attend offers that service as there are generally way more lectures I would like to attend than I have the ability. https://www.greathomeschoolconventions.com/ Also, go for the curriculum fair. Hands on research into curriculum is priceless and many exhibitors give lectures. If you plan to buy your supplies there, make sure to bring a pack and roll cart. Saves your legs and back.

  41. Farm Boy

    And you want her to get paid the exact same amount for the same work that her male colleagues do.

    Is there anybody out there who argues that this does not happen?

  42. Farm Boy

    What does being a slut have to do with monsters?

    To ask the question is to answer it.

    After you put a ring on a slut, she turns into a monster?

  43. Farm Boy

    Princess culture encourages girls to be damsels in distress

    Not so. It encourages an entitlement mentality.

  44. Farm Boy

    Oh, and by the way, in the movie “Tangled”, the princess isn’t capable of even getting herself to the city where she needs to go; she has to enlist the aid of a handsome rogue to get her there.

    And in the movie “Brave”, the chick director messed things up so badly that she was relieved of duty in mid-film. That is why the film seems so disjointed.

  45. allamagoosa

    @SSM: most young women now simply respond to disagreement by spewing expletives.

    At best, that’s what they do. Apparently there is some hubbub about the legality of a state gov banning birth control. A woman I know responded by saying that if that happened she would respond by dumping abandoned babies on the doorsteps of the politicians responsible. I had to calm my own rage at her before I could respond, telling her that would hardly help her cause.

  46. Bike Bubba

    Farm Boy: unfortunately, as anyone who’s ever looked at him would guess, Ken is getting his sammitches from his very, very good friend “Steve.”

    Allamagoosa: your friend’s rant brings to mind a very simple question. How would she get those abandoned babies to drop off, and what kind of monster would do that to a child?

    Yeah, there’s sympathetic feminism for ya there. Steal somebody’s kids and leave ‘em out in the cold. Hangin’ offense, or at least it should be. :^)

  47. allamagoosa

    @Bike Bubba How would she get those abandoned babies to drop off, and what kind of monster would do that to a child?

    Yeah, there’s sympathetic feminism for ya there. Steal somebody’s kids and leave ‘em out in the cold. Hangin’ offense, or at least it should be. :^)

    No kidding. I had to spend twenty minutes calming myself down so I could write something other than, “If you actually do that you’ll be lucky if all I do is call the cops on you”. Ok, that’s still nicer than what I wanted to say.

    Not to mention it’s a stupid way to get your point across. All it does is make the politician look sympathetic. Especially if he takes the kid in and adopts it. Even his opponents would have to give him some respect for that one. Actually, as long as he doesn’t leave the kid to freeze to death on his doorstep he’ll come out looking good and the abandon-er would look heinously evil.

  48. sunshinemary Post author

    @HipsterRacist

    So, the feminists invade the male hierarchy, demand the dynamics change to be more comfortable for women, and then tries to recruit other women into the hierarchy as her team mates – Team Woman – against the men.

    Women may not form a hierarchy, but they do tend to form a network. A community; civil society, often based around homes, children, and family. But since that doesn’t come with the prestige of the male hierarchy – feminists only care about what men find prestigious, not women – feminists have no interest.

    That’s what they mean when they say they don’t want women to define themselves by having a man, or appeal to men. They don’t mean “men” they mean “husbands.” Because none of these feminists are starting their own companies, or a female hierarchy. They can’t do it; they are incapable. But these women aren’t family women, they don’t want to be mothers and wives. Of course, they don’t want to be men, physically, they aren’t going to have a sex change operation.

    So, you wear the pantsuits, mimic men as much as possible, try to gender neutralize the workplace (let’s be honest, this is White Collar White Feminism we’re talking about here) then complain that the boss married his secretary, as opposed to his hard charging feminist VP.

    Sound and fury, signifying nothing.

    This is a great comment and exactly matches up with my own observations. Really, what do feminists – really, even women in general – do in the corporate world that is of value? So very, very little. They aren’t the starter of companies nor the inventors of things. They say that women just aren’t doing these things yet because, you know, the Patriarchy. How much longer do we have to wait to see these glorious results of 50 years of dismantling society, feminists? When will you produce something besides women who knit scarves out of wool crammed up their coochies?

  49. Novaseeker

    Well, except that the boss doesn’t actually marry his secretary these days. The corner office people are married either to women who have relatively high powered careers themselves or, more commonly, to women who have a similar level of education and either left a high-powered career or opted for a low power one and are now SAHMs. It’s assortative in terms of education now — not boss and secretary.

  50. sunshinemary Post author

    Yes, it is assorted by education, but I think that a lot of men with intense careers tend to be married to women with more flexible careers – not the VP usually, right? But also not secretaries.

  51. Novaseeker

    VPs are fine. Not SVPs and EVPs, though. VP is now “middle management”. SVP is the management of middle management, and EVP is the management of the company as a whole.

  52. Lady Just Saying

    There’s also been very few women serial killers (though one of the most proliferic was a woman), and no Stalins or Hitlers. And women have invented things — not as many as men, but a woman invented windshield wipers and the material that is used for kevlar vests for police officers, a women invented the first commerical dishwasher (though the first was invented by a man it did not work well enough to actually be sold), and there are other inventions or components of the invention that were invented by women.

    Roddick sold The Body Shop to L’Oréal for a reported $1.4 billion. Today, there are more than 2,500 stores in 61 different countries. (woman started business) Skinny Girl sold for $134 million, founded by Betheny Frankel.

  53. lauratheringmistress

    Funny about that assortive by education thing. A blogger I follow from the Catholic sphere was mentioning just last week the kind of awkward conversations she was likely to have at the gala she was attending. Her husband has a very impressive resume (Yale, Stanford) and people just assume that they either met at school or she must be something similarly impressive. Her status as housewife and homeschooling mother seems mismatched to the expectations of what a man with his background would marry.

    Re: women inventors; women tend to be remarkably good at inventing things that touch on the domestic sphere. And there are always oddities. The last company my husband worked for was a startup with a female co-owner. She was responsible for one of the core pieces of computer code that made their business run, her business partner had created the complementary half. Both were incredibly good programmers…and equally bad business people.

  54. Hipster Racist

    @SSM
    @Noveseeker

    Well, the math genius women I knew all had very conventional personal lives, married with children, and went back to work when the kids were grown. They loved their work, and they loved the money, but they had no interest in competing in the male status game or angling for the corner office. They had their own status.

    Of course, most women aren’t geniuses and most won’t have high paying corporate jobs.

    Surely it’s a failure of feminism that while all the gals were sitting around changing diapers, the math genius women among them didn’t break new ground in the field and then teach all the other women. Or that House Wives weren’t able to go all Proverbs 31 and double the household income with their savvy businesses.

    Instead, feminism told women to work “outside the home” doing things they otherwise would have done, just this time the profits go to someone else’s family.

    Neat trick, huh?

  55. FuzzieWuzzie

    Lady Just Saying, Chocolate chip cookies!!! I’ll resist the urge to video link someone blue and furry.
    COOKIE!!

  56. Lady Just Saying

    @Fuzzie

    White chocolate macadamian nut — I only buy one at a time because they are too good.

  57. FuzzieWuzzie

    Lady Just Saying, visiting my brother, at college, one of his roomates got a “Care package” from his sweetie. I made the prediction: if it’s sugar cookies, she’s so-so. Chocolate chip, she loves him.
    She loved him.

  58. lovelyleblanc7

    @danny504: “damn near every girl i know who’s red-pill either had VERY involved parents or a brother who was a slut that dissuaded them form being promiscuous.”
    I’m not red pill (I don’t really know what that is so, I won’t ascribe to it) but I can confirm this. Both was the case for me.

  59. feeriker

    <iBarbie is so passe.

    Indeed. “Carousel Cara” (or Carol, or Carrie, or whatever) is MUCH more relevant to the times.

    Hmmmmm, anyone wanna assist me in putting a design to that idea (I’ll cutcha in on half of the future profits)?

    Excuse me while I go find Mattel’s phone number…

  60. Scott Evans

    @feeriker, Slightly OT, but can you give any resources for fending off the homeschooling naysayers?

    Obliterated:

    The advice that Bike and HH gave you upthread is spot-on. Although my wife and I pretty much “went it alone” with our grandson’s homeschooling before our daughter put him in Christian school when he started second grade, the resources Bike and HH cite do provide some very useful tools and contacts.

    As for your mom’s position: well, it sounds like she’s one of those WGATAP cases (i.e., it will literally take a miracle to get her to see the light). Fortunately, it is YOU who are responsible for your daughter’s education, so your mom has (or should have) exactly ze-ro say in the matter.

  61. The Real Peterman

    “I don’t technically have a problem with teaching a girl to debate respectfully, but the proof has got to be in the pudding, and I have not ever found that feminists are capable of respectful, well-reasoned debate. ”

    Ha! Too true!

  62. The Real Peterman

    “kids are getting bored stiff in school and then “self-medicating” with French Fries, Ho-Hos, and the like”

    I resemble that remark.

    “When you’re a mother’s son, every stick becomes a gun. ”

    That one, too. In my case it was a plastic toy hammer.

  63. Pingback: the Revision Division

  64. Just Saying

    “she spoke of the waiter looking down her blouse ‘What an asshole!’”

    When I was in grad-school, one of the women got very upset that one of the TA’s who didn’t grade, looked down her blouse – but during an exam she sat in the middle of the row – legs wide open with her skirt pulled up, and no panties on, so that when I looked up, I could see not only that she wasn’t wearing panties, but that she was into Brazilian waxes. Of course, she was bucking for an A in my class and made it known. So when she said she “would do anything for an A”, I told her to study her a** off because that was the only way her a** was going to be useful to her in my class – and when she came to my office I introduced her to one of my GF’s who made her look like chopped liver. She was NOT happy about a guy that passed on her offer – but women are easy, there is never a reason to give them anything of value other than the pleasure of you enjoying them.

    Women are very willing to use what they have to get ahead when to comes to men above them, but the guys lower are beneath them and aren’t supposed to exist. Thus the waiter wasn’t supposed to enjoy a free look – only the men that can benefit her. Typical female mentality. Heck, I use that fact to my benefit in many ways. You would be surprised at the things women will do if they want something that they “think” you can give them access to. (Of course, I’m not supposed to say anything about their actions, just like you’re not supposed to acknowledge that when women say, “No” it means “Maybe” and, more often than not, it means “I’m giving a token resistance before spreading my legs so you don’t think I’m a slut – even if I am.”)

  65. Maeve

    @FarmBoy – I read that excellent article this morning. Only thing I would add is that the “I WANT” is typically followed by ‘THEREFORE YOU SHOULD”

  66. Pingback: Social Fairness | nightskyradio

  67. FuzzieWuzzie

    SSM, why did Ashley M. stop all communication when her boyfriend brought over dinner?
    Answer: she hasn’t eaten all day. Too “strong and independent” to cook.
    I just have to wonder about her as a dinner companion.

  68. margaret1910

    What I read of many men here on your site is that it does not make sense for a man to take a chance on marriage. If this is the case, then what will our daughters do? I certainly would guess that you and I would not give them advice to use sex to catch a husband (which is a much less useful strategy than it was in the 80′s to 90′s). Are you confident that they will find a husband? And, what if they can’t/don’t? Have we advice for them in this, seemingly more possible scenario? I must make it clear that I am not a fan of the idea that a woman can always find a good man to marry, coupled with the idea that she must also be absolutely crazy in love with him. Of course I would prefer this scenario..but which is more important? How would you advise your daughter, assuming that she reaches the age of 25 or 30 without finding that mixture?

  69. Farm Boy

    I must make it clear that I am not a fan of the idea that a woman can always find a good man to marry, coupled with the idea that she must also be absolutely crazy in love with him

    What does hypergamy tell you? What does your rational side say?

  70. Farm Boy

    Women are very willing to use what they have to get ahead when to comes to men above them, but the guys lower are beneath them and aren’t supposed to exist

    Hypergamy at its finest.

  71. Hipster Racist

    @margaret1910

    What I read of many men here on your site is that it does not make sense for a man to take a chance on marriage. If this is the case, then what will our daughters do? I certainly would guess that you and I would not give them advice to use sex to catch a husband (which is a much less useful strategy than it was in the 80?s to 90?s). … Have we advice for them in this, seemingly more possible scenario?

    That’s a very good question. Other than sex, what do our daughters offer to a man that would make him want to marry her? The “manosphere” likes to tell a lot of stupid jokes about making sandwiches, but Subway makes great sandwiches for about $4.

    So, why would a man take a wife, other than for sex?

    What are our daughters good for, other than sex?

  72. Farm Boy

    The “manosphere” likes to tell a lot of stupid jokes about making sandwiches, but Subway makes great sandwiches for about $4.

    Yes indeed, Subway has good deals on subs, especially when they are selling $5.00 foot longs. However, the main point of women making sammiches for men is with respect to women serving men, not the sammiches themselves.

  73. margaret1910

    Farm Boy, My point was that I don’t think it’s that difficult to find a good man. May even not be that difficult to find a good man who wants to marry you. However, it seems to me, finding a good man that you are head over heels in love with, is just luck. So, if a girl is not that lucky, how should we advise them? I am assuming that having sex outside of marriage is off the table.

    Not sure how my hypergamy comes into this. I am not looking to marry. This is really just a question.

  74. margaret1910

    Hipster Racist: No, I do not believe that the only use for a wife is to have sex. I am a Christian and believe that all human beings are children of God, not objects to be used. I also believe that marriage should be a good thing. My concern is that in the current environment, marriage is very difficult. For men, I agree there is a very high risk in marriage. For women, it appears that finding that elusive man who is both good and that one is crazy in love with, is like hitting the lottery. In other words, doesn’t seem likely. (My assumption, as a Christian, is that extra-marital sex should not be a factor.)

    And, so, my question is..then what? Encourage one’s daughter to remain unmarried? The modern idea that eros is the highest good just seems unrealistic to me.

  75. Hipster Racist

    @margaret10

    No, I’m not saying the only “use” for a wife is to have sex, anymore than the only “use” for a husband is to have sex.

    I just suspect that if I asked the question, what do our sons offer a woman that would make her want to marry him, other than sex – most women would have a long list of things men should provide for a woman.

    But ask the same question of women – what do women offer to a man that would make him marry her, other than sex? The women draw a blank. The question itself seems wrong. Surely, it’s the men doing things for the women. Women are the prize. Men should be lucky to even have a woman, right? According to these manosphere guys, unless you’re the top 20% of men, women won’t even give you the time of day (they are wrong, of course, but that’s a matter for another time.)

    Well, some women might join in joking about making sammiches. As far as I can tell, those are the only responses: sex, and sandwiches.

    It’s funny that “children” and “family” never seem to be brought up, neither by the “PUAs” or Christian men, and definitely never by the women. Now, considering a man’s children are not legally his own, but belong to the mother and the state – that’s basically out, too.

    So, I guess Paul was right. The only reason to marry is to avoid fornication. Women literally have nothing else to offer, from what I can tell. Just sex.

  76. FuzzieWuzzie

    Margaret1910, I have been haunted by your question from last night. Hipster Racist’s response might be true in the present day but, hopefully, it can’t hold forever. The current attitude that “women are the prize” has distorted the sexual/marriage marketplace.
    The most direct way of countering that would be to instil in women respect for men. I have to cofess that I am at a loss to how this may be accomplished.
    In the meanwhile, a man’s best defense from being undone is to consider marrying a woman who is head over heels.

  77. JDG

    The “manosphere” likes to tell a lot of stupid jokes about making sandwiches

    You mean like “A sammich a day helps keep the hamster at bay”?

    So, I guess Paul was right.

    Of course. But the context was in regards to pleasing the Lord. The whole idea was to be able to put your whole heart into serving God. It was God who said “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him.” In a patriarchal setting the woman could effectively help the man.

    Though she could also make trouble for him, there were consequences for doing so. In a society like ours there is no glue to hold it together. Hence the disaster we see all around us.

  78. Farm Boy

    I can’t believe someone didn’t like the sammich jokes.

    I don’t know why. I suppose that I am not young enough to know everything.

  79. Farm Boy

    In the meanwhile, a man’s best defense from being undone is to consider marrying a woman who is head over heels.

    Difficult to do, this is. Feminism has raised the relative status of women relative to men, so a fella really has to have much going for him to really shine in her eye.

  80. FuzzieWuzzie

    Farm Boy, “I suppose that I am not YOUNG enough to know everything.”
    I can imagine the eleven year old would be in full agreement with this.

  81. Jim

    I sometimes think women need a man to tell them what’s good for them. Most of them seem to be completely clueless about it.

  82. Farm Boy

    I sometimes think women need a man to tell them what’s good for them.

    But would they listen, being empowered and all?

  83. Jim

    margaret1910:
    “I do not believe that the only use for a wife is to have sex.”

    For 95% of western women, that IS all they’re good for.

  84. FuzzieWuzzie

    Jim’s comment made me think of something else. An easy way for a woman to enhance her value is to learn how to be good company.
    One of the effects of the present age has been to diverge the interests of both men and women to the point where there is very little in common.

  85. margaret1910

    Guys, thanks for your responses (Particular thanks to FW and HR). I understand that the whole point for most of you is to defend men against the evils of the current feminist environment. But my question still stands. With lots of good men checking out of the whole marriage idea, I think it is quite likely that a girl may not be able to find a good man with whom she is madly in love, and who is interested in marrying her. The question is..what should she do? What should she be counseled to do?

  86. Chris

    @Margaret, you need to bring to the table — more than sammiches. I’m a little bruised on this front but:
    1. Be fit.
    2. Be pleasant.
    3. Agree to out for coffee once.
    4. Keep you legs together.
    5. Make it clear you are marriage minded and you will not divorce even if the man is a total moron. (For he will be at times, as will you be). That you will be a help-meet and cover his back.

    Churchian language does not help us guys as a filter: we have seen too many frivorces inside a church. We will probe, we will test, with the full knowledge that we may lose and lose big in this process because we are not dating and sexing you up, but searching for a wife. And, after each rejection…. we have to consider seriously if the game is still worth playing.

    For a good wife is truly above rubies — precious and rare. A bad wife is a certain circle of hell.

  87. Chris

    Additional — you will go out for coffee with a lot of frogs before you find a prince. If he is not decent, godly, and looking for a wife (and not a femme du jour) — NEXT.

  88. Chris

    I am reading the thread backwards… so
    [deep breath: rant on]
    A wife is a help meet. What she does is run things that the bloke does not want to do, in cooperation and obedience with him. She is the XO of the family: she probably keeps the house, and books (but may not) home garden, helps raise the kids, is social secretary, and in short keeps things going.
    This should allow the man to go out and slay a few dragons, and returning with the gold required to keep the castle maintained and the pantry filled.
    A wife normally also meets the sexual requirements, negating a need for a mistress or thez p0rnz, teaches the children, negating the need for child care and (primary school) teachers and cares for the sick in the family, negating the need for nurses. She is the husband’s primary personal assistant and secretary.
    What this will involve will vary from man to man and circumstance to circumstance. But you are obeying one man, the one you agreed to, the one who has committed his honour and future to you, and he needs to know he has you at his back, regardless of what happens, as long as you both live.
    Because if he does not have you at his back, indeed if you are going to sabotage his life and destroy the children, then you have no use. No use at all.
    You are a risk, you are to be avoided.
    [rant off]

    Women without honour, without a spine, who cannot keep their word have. no. use.

  89. FuzzieWuzzie

    Margaret1910, in my own circumstance, I have to accept that I won’t find someone to share my life with. For a lot of women, it may work out this way too. I’m sorry but, it’s not for lack of trying on my part.
    In time, tings will change. That is the only constant.

  90. margaret1910

    Chris, I do not disagree with anything that you wrote above. Excellent summary of what marriage ought to be. Yay! Although, I am not sure that every woman is capable of homeschooling.

    So, if a woman understands what she is signing on for, and a man understands what he is signing on for..how important is it that they start out head over heels in love? I think that love can grow over time if both parties are truly committed. I don’t say that anyone should marry someone to whom they are not attracted. Just not convinced that being madly in love is necessary. And, just in case anyone does not understand this, I am totally opposed to divorce for unhaaaapiness. I honestly don’t think being haaaaapy is the summit of human existence. It’s a nice bonus, but one can find joy in many things if one is looking OUTSIDE oneself.

    Oh, and Chris, do understand that I am emphatically NOT in the market. I have two daughters (one happily married and one unmarried) and I also just have a general interest in the well-being of young women. I was one myself, back in the day.

  91. margaret1910

    FuzzieWuzzie, I can imagine that this situation is painful for you. And, yes, many young women may come to the realization that they are in the same situation.

    I do hope that you are wrong, and that you will find a woman who is worthy of sharing your life. Best of luck and may God bless you.

  92. Chris

    Head over heels in love….
    Go read your Austen. For she understood that being a wife was a job description. I’m like Fuzzie: too old, too traditional, too difficult….

  93. margaret1910

    Hmmm..Chris, you may have gotten hold of the wrong end of the stick. Did I ask if you were looking? I was just impressed with your view of marriage.

    I am just interested in a general way about the plight of young women in the current environment. I have daughters, hope one day to have granddaughters, and I work at a University. I see a lot of young women and I think that they mainly do not have a clue and do not seem to have anyone in their lives that does. I have no idea what the situation in NZ might be, but from your comments, doesn’t sound all that different from the US.

    I am a big Austen reader. Of course, she understood that being a wife was a job description. Not sure of your point here?

    I have a very traditional understanding of love and marriage. Marriage is once and forever. I suspect that women (and men) could be much happier in their marriages if they couldn’t get out of them. It’s human nature, after all.

  94. margaret1910

    No idea of your age, FuzzieWuzzie, but my parents married at 32 and 37 and had a very happy, although rather short marriage. Mama died at 56, and Daddy followed only 18 months later. Still, they were a very happy couple for those 24 years! God willing, they are together again.

  95. Chris

    @margeret.
    You and I agree on Austen, roles of marriage, and the current situation. It’s bad here: I work at a university and my son is starting his first academic year this month. (STEM, naturally)

    It is vicious, horrible, and incredibly competative. And 17 year old girls cannot visualize themselves as mothers — or washed up veterans of the dating scene — at 30. They have all been told they are better than boys (from a secondary school system that is female-centric).

    Let’s just say that most of the people who make coffee here are graduates, and some waiters have PhDs.

  96. margaret1910

    It is awful, isn’t it? I am also a STEM graduate (Chemistry). Oh, no question that girls have been babied in the primary and secondary schools. I work in the chemistry department and deal with some really smart and capable girls, but a lot more who show up in a college chemistry class and just can’t manage the coursework.

    I work with a young girl who has told me that she would never consider marriage before 28 or kids before 30. It’s just sad. She just seems to think that when she is ready, a husband and children are available for picking off the husband/children tree.

  97. Chris

    I teach at a medical school, kiddo. And the feminism gets drummed out when they get to see the data on birth complications, fertility… and realize that THERE IS NOT A SINGLE CONVENIENT TIME FOR A FEMALE DOCTOR TO HAVE A BABY. I tell the girls to get their basic qualifications done fast, and then get a life… including taking time for their family. To hell with workforce planning: I want people to not burn out.

    And there is no husband tree. Or wife tree, for that matter.

  98. margaret1910

    Well, Chris, you are far above me on the academic tree. Do the young women actually listen? Just wondering. Because I have had no success preaching that stuff. BTW, how does medical school work in NZ? Here in the US, you have to have a bachelor’s degree before entering medical school, which is four more years and then residency seems to average 3-7 years, depending on the field. Tough to be done with all that before 30.

    My personal doctor somehow has 6 kids. No idea how she has managed it. Still married to her one and only husband, a good and decent and religious woman.

    Both of my daughters are nurses, and one is in her final year in the nurse practioner’s program.

  99. Chris

    Well, since the son is having a go.
    — six year undergraduate (MB, not MD) medical degree
    — minimum two years as an House officer (read intern)
    — minimum five years as a registrar (read resident)
    AND pass the specailist exams. Which have a 40% failure rate. For each exam. You cannot work independantly without your fellowship.

    So… I have a MB, ChB (basic degree) and a FRANZCP (Psychiatry Fellowship) and then I did a research degree (started at 40, so an MPH, not a PhD) which was needed (plus a pile of papers) to get an academic job. Most of the time we don’t cite our MB.

    If you get in to second year (one in ten do) at 19, get your MB at 24, you can get your fellowship at 31. Very few people get theirs before 30. But… almost all training can be done part-time, so most women either get their part ones at 27-28 and then have babies, or qualify as fast as they can and then go part time.

    Assuming they can keep a husband while working 60 -80 hours a week.

  100. margaret1910

    Fascinating..are all these levels required to practice as a GP? Or, as I would call it, a family practice physician? Sorry to go a bit off-topic, but I am curious. Do you have such things as nurse practitioners in NZ? To the best of my knowledge, there is no way to do medical school part-time in the US.

    Oh, and I am well aware that there is no husband/child tree available. I was only explaining the general attitude of young women with whom I am in contact (not my daughters).

  101. Chris

    Only one modification: GPs sit their part one after a one year registrarship and then have to work under collegial supervision for another four years full time or equivelant, and do a series of assessments to get their fellowship (FRNZGP). So same time.

  102. Farm Boy

    I am a big Austen reader. Of course, she understood that being a wife was a job description. Not sure of your point here?

    My interpretation of the point is that “head over heels in love” should not be a requirement. Deti advocates HOHIL for the purpose of minimizing the risk of frivorce, but in the olden days it really wasn’t required. Often women who were not HOHIL with their husband at the start learned to appreciate their husbands and loved them later. But that was then.

  103. margaret1910

    I agree that HOHIL should not be a requirement. I am not even convinced that it is necessarily a good thing in this day and age. When a woman’s emotional feelings are the most important thing to her, it would seem to me that she is even more likely to go the way of ILYBINILWY. I must say, I just don’t get it..I just don’t. Would you do this to your kids..who do usually get some of us at times in the attitude..I love you..but I just don’t like you right now. But most women don’t dump their kids..and, no, it is not all about money. If you can continue to live with your kids, then why not just work it out with your husband?

  104. FuzzieWuzzie

    Margaret1910, you just brought it home to me. There are two seperate issues here, sexual desire and the strength of a woman’s commitment.
    Two sources, Dalrock and Susan Walsh, have put forth the “head over heels” arguement. Susan added that if the fires are not burning hot at the start, it’s not likely to heat up over time. This was a caution to women.
    As for frivorce, I have a hard time wrapping my head around that one too. The only thing that does make sense about it is that there is a lot cheering from the sidelines to “dump hubby”.

  105. margaret1910

    Thanks, FuzzieWuzzie..I think that the number one issue here is women’s commitment. The more I think about it, the more I think that, respectively, Dalrock and Walsh are wrong. Women who are all about the emotional or the “tingles” are more likely to decide if they don’t have those feelings, then they are almost required to dump their spouse because feeeeelings. There is kind of an old rural saying..”Go to bed, do your business, and then get up and feed the chickens.”

    I think there should, in this day and age, be a decent level of sexual attraction, I am just not convinced that it is the most important thing. I think the most important thing is mutual commitment. No matter what..I commit to you for the rest of my life. (In cases of real physical abuse or abandonment, civil divorce may be necessary for the safety of the wronged spouse and children..but no remarriage and no other sexual relationships.)

  106. margaret1910

    Bleh..I mean respectfully (not respectively), to Dalrock and Susan Walsh. I understand why they think as they do..I just have a different opinion.

  107. Ton

    It’s inconceivable to me a relatively attractive woman couldn’t land a decent man of virtue to marry in under 90 days if she wants. What prevents this is the checklist, and no woman’s checklist is short, regardless of what she says on the topic.

    Any chick under 300 pounds could be married in under a year if she went to a military town.

  108. margaret1910

    Does she have to really love this guy? Or just find a good man who would marry her? I agree, there are lots of good men out there, but should a woman just marry a good man? Honestly, I wouldn’t have any problem with it, as long as she (and he) are committed to marriage.

    Surely you are not saying that a chick should just go to a military town and use some poor bastard to just get married? From what I have read of your comments, I have doubt that you think that is even sorta kinda acceptable.

  109. margaret1910

    Men are not objects to be used by women. I agree that an individual, not fat, reasonably attractive woman can find a good man who will marry her. But is that what we should counsel our daughters to do,if they are not in love/have strong attraction to the man? Is it ok if they are willing to remain married forever, and provide what a wife should? Or is that unfair to the man?

    My point is not that most women are not totally unreasonable in their requirements/desires. Duh, of course they are. I am asking how young women should be counseled..should they hold out for a guy that they are crazy in love with? Does that even make sense? I don’t want men to be cheated.

  110. Farm Boy

    If you can continue to live with your kids, then why not just work it out with your husband?

    I have wondered that also. Perhaps some women could chime in.

    Maybe tingles are the modern requirement for husbands where they come up lacking.

  111. Farm Boy

    What prevents this is the checklist, and no woman’s checklist is short, regardless of what she says on the topic.

    Half of a loaf is better than none at all?

  112. Farm Boy

    I agree that an individual, not fat, reasonably attractive woman can find a good man who will marry her

    And,

    I agree that HOHIL should not be a requirement

    OK then, where is the problem?

  113. margaret1910

    It certainly seems that that is what many women are doing..if the husband doesn’t make her feeeeel loved (in other words, make her tingle) then she is obligated to kick him to the curb because she has an absolute right to feeeeel happy or loved or whatever. This is a first world problem. It makes me..irritated.

  114. Farm Boy

    I am asking how young women should be counseled

    Just like my mother and grandmothers were. To respect men, especially their husbands, and to love and obey them. And to be content in doing so.

    This is difficult to do these days when one has Grrrl power continually blasted in their faces.

    As an aside, it is odd that women are often more aggressive than men, but are the ones without the testosterone.

  115. Farm Boy

    if the husband doesn’t make her feeeeel loved (in other words, make her tingle) then she is obligated to kick him to the curb because she has an absolute right to feeeeel happy or loved or whatever. This is a first world problem. It makes me..irritated.

    You are not the only one.

    Oddly enough, the children’s needs are often not a factor. Though women are supposed to be the nurturing type.

  116. margaret1910

    The problem is that I am hearing that a woman who is not madly in love with a man, should not marry him. I am hearing this from men. So, is it fair for a woman to marry a man with whom she is not crazy in love? I just think that it is hard for a young woman to find a good man who wants to marry her, and also who she is crazy in love with. Men continuously say that women only really truly fall in love with the top 20% of men. Obviously, not all women can marry those men. So, how to counsel young women?

  117. margaret1910

    Lol, Farm Boy, sounds like we are more or less on the same page. A young woman should find a good man to marry and then work with him and not against him. Enjoy what you have and just stop whining. And get over the idea that feeelings are the end all be all of human existence.

  118. Farm Boy

    The problem is that I am hearing that a woman who is not madly in love with a man, should not marry him. I am hearing this from men

    Yes, Deti says that. He is telling guys that, not women. It is all about HIM minimizing the likelihood of frivorce.

    But most guys do not operate this way. So, not to worry.

  119. margaret1910

    Yes, I get the concept. Avoiding extramarital sex helps avoid alpha widow syndrome to some extent. It’s not absolutely a way to avoid it, because women are capable of wanting what they have never had. We are not always rational.

  120. Farm Boy

    Yes, many modern women are in “Alpha or Cats” mode.

    From a fellas perspective this looks mighty silly.

  121. margaret1910

    Hmmmm..Dalrock says much the same about being head over heels. I respect him, although I don’t agree. I think frivorce is at least as likely when women think that those feelings are incredibly important.

  122. Farm Boy

    Modern women are given a huge amount of power in their teens and twenties, unearned power. They come to think that because it, they deserve more.than they really do.

    That, and hypergamy also.

  123. Farm Boy

    I think frivorce is at least as likely when women think that those feelings are incredibly important.

    Is there a modern woman who doesn’t?

  124. Farm Boy

    This is why sammich making is so important. The woman serves the man. Women don’t seem to get this concept in modern marriage. From their perspective it is all about how he can serve her.

  125. Ton

    I’m only speaking to the tactical reality on the ground.

    As for the rest, women don’t do love, they don’t do commitment. Might as well ask my dog to do algebra. The only thing that matters is the legal situation. Women, their desires, what to tell them etc should not be part of the equation.

  126. FuzzieWuzzie

    I turned in before Margaret and Farm Boy got to talking.
    Margaret, if you were in the market, your outlook would be different. You’re asking women to accept less than ideal when they are being bombarded on all sides with not settling for then than exceptional.
    I do like your rural wisdom of feeding chickens in the morning.

  127. Farm Boy

    And if they settle for “less than exceptional”, they will resent it. Even if they say to themselves that they won’t. These are the fruits of spoiled girls with high self-esteem.

    Mothers, teach your girls to make sammiches for dad when they are young.

  128. Farm Boy

    As for the rest, women don’t do love, they don’t do commitment. Might as well ask my dog to do algebra

    But your dog does do commitment well.

  129. Farm Boy

    M1910,

    If you do talk to young ladie, perhaps you could suggest that consider things from a rational (not all guys are rational) fella’s perspective. Guys think in terms of

    1. Risk
    2. Effort
    3. Benefit

    This would be a good start if it could help a women could step out of her self-centered view.

  130. Obliterated

    How many people STAY HOHIL though? I mean, really? Like, .0001% I bet. I agree with Margaret that that is NOT what we should shoot for, because that emphasizes girls relying on their feeeeelings even MORE.

    Speaking of “the list,” I dug up my old list I wrote a looooong time ago in my journal:
    1. work ethic
    2. best friends (meaning we would be)
    3. has a passion for music or other passion
    4 cares about discipleship
    5. heart for the lost
    6. enjoys similar leisure pursuits (camping, outdoors)
    7. missions–homeless, construction, children, college, whatever–just wants to be involved in the work of the Lord
    8. frugality/no extravagance/simplicity
    9. kids (means, wants them! ha)
    10. has guarded, careful opposite sex friendships
    11. similar theology
    12. has physical standards i.e. kissing (this mean I didn’t want to make out, which I felt was entering into sexual temptation instead of fleeing it)
    13. will not stay out late with me (that’s when temptation happens!)
    14. prayer
    15. loves Jesus with all his heart
    16. servant’s heart
    17. not an emo boy (I always was grossed out by ‘em)
    18 loves food of all kinds and not picky
    19. can submit to authority (he he I bet this sounds scary! But I just had a guy friend/interest in the past that always undermined a pastor we had in our college ministry, for selfish/immature reasons).

    I wonder, is it not helpful to have a list at all, if it is like this? I honestly could NOT believe that woman’s list that was linked a while back. But is something like this bad? Wrong for a young woman to do? I’m interested for the same reasons as Margaret. What do we counsel young women? ha ha This looks funny to re-read. This was me at 24 years old, though.

  131. Feather Blade

    It is helpful to have a list, but, assuming that the woman is Christian herself, the only two items that absolutely must be on it are:
    1) That he is a demonstrated, churched (preferably well-churched) Christian
    2) That he is neither married nor promised to some other woman.

    (Because these are the times we live in, it may also be useful to find out whether he was born male…>_>; )

    Beyond that it is wise to consider the following items:
    - What is his calling?
    - How does he regard and manage money?
    - What is his philosophy of parenting?
    - What is his relationship with his family members?
    - What are his expectations of a wife, vis-s-vis housewifery and employment?
    - What are his expectations of himself as a husband?
    - Is the woman capable of and willing to submit to his leadership? (Yes, this question is last to be considered, because without answering the other questions the woman has insufficient information to answer it.)

    And if he is not willing to show both leadership and self-control in avoiding sexual temptation before the marriage is finalized, then he needs a talking-to by the church elders. (DO NOT test him on this to find out. There will be plenty of chances to avoid sexual contact without the woman manufacturing them.)

    If the woman is unwilling or unable to cold-bloodedly consider these things and weigh whether she can meet his standards, and whether his answers are compatible with her own, then she is unsuitable for marriage.

    If she has already “fallen in love” (*sneer*) with the guy, then her close family, or in their absence the church elders) must be enlisted to help her sort things out. Why? Because “in love” (aka “the tingles”) makes women (and yes, men too) stupid, causing a kind of willful blindness in the unfortunate person so afflicted.

  132. Joseph Dooley

    I was helping my girlfriend babysit about 20 pre-K to 2nd grade kids at church while their parents were off at a meeting. The boys were throwing balls at each other and smashing toy trucks together. The girls were pretending to serve me tea and sandwiches.

    When children are young, nature rules. It’s amazing what nonsense we are told to swallow the older we get.

  133. Farm Boy

    The girls were pretending to serve me tea and sandwiches.

    When children are young, nature rules.

    So women serving sammiches is really “back to nature”…

Comments are closed.